irish famine

[geofflovett]

Yeah the English have alot to answer for.

Nothing has been mentioned of 5yr olds,working under looms,losing fingers daily,or down the pits working alongside their pregnant mother,Or hitting the clog on a molten steel crucible only to be covered in molten metal,ah then theres the poor bastards who were sent up chimneys,or down sewers to unblock the smaller pipes,But this doesn't matter eh,they were all from Sheffield.

[KittyStarlight]

To BRIGSTOCK (3 weeks ago):

I don't know why on earth somebody gave you

a "thumbs down" when you were just *being

historically accurate*. (You're right, it

was *primarily* about English AND Irish

indifference toward "the poor". I *do* think

that typical English attitudes toward "the

Irish" were also a factor. But calling it

deliberate genocide would be, I believe,

a little extreme.)

[BRIGSTOCK]

You mustn't take it out of its historical context. It was a time of extreme poverty. Thomas Hardy once wrote about a little boy near him in Dorset (50 miles from London) in the 1850s who literally starved to death. Poverty was simply accepted as normal. The feeble response to the famine is an example of the indifference of the rich, landowning English AND Irish towards 'the poor' rather English cruelty towards 'the Irish'.

In the 1840s social class meant more than nationality.

[BRIGSTOCK]

You also have to remember that people in 1845 simply didn't think the way we do. It was a time in which slavery was still practised in the USA and public hanging was a good day out in Britain. Poverty was equated with moral corruption. It was a different psychology/ sensibility. It is very unfair to accuse the British of genocide. Incompetence, negligence, lack of attention/ interest etc etc... yes, but no fair historian could accuse the British of genocide.

[50334]

That an island which is said to be an integral part of the richest empire on the globe ... should in five years lose two and a half million of its people (more than one fourth) by hunger, and fever the consequence of hunger, and emigrate to escape from hunger.n 1845, 24% of all Irish tenant farms were of 0.4 to 2 hectares one to five acres in size, while 40% were of two to six hectares five to fifteen acres. Holdings were so small that only potatoes no other crop would suffice to feed a family.

[50334]

and which led to the death of approximately one million people through starvation and disease although it is believed that up to 2 million perished between 1845 to 1849,plus approx 1 million emigrated.

[50334]

the facts of this famine are as follows:The proximate cause of the famine was a potato disease commonly known as late blight. Although blight ravaged potato crops throughout Europe during the 1840s, the impact and human cost in Ireland — where a third of the population was entirely dependent on the potato for food — was exacerbated by a host of political, social and economic factors which remain the subject of historical debate!!

[KittyStarlight]

To 50334: "the impact and human cost in Ireland --- where a third of the population was entirely dependent on the potato for food --- was exacerbated by a host of political, social and economic factors which remain the subject of historical debate!!" ...thank you...finally...now *that's* what I would've said if I would've thought of it! ^_^ Thanks for your postings! ^_^ Kitty =^__^=

[KittyStarlight]

Anyway, if some people think that almost no other food was or could be grown in Ireland, and/or that the Irish deliberately chose to only eat potatoes, *those people are mixed up*. Blame poor teaching...of grammar as well as of history...because to a *genuinely educated person* the term "Irish potato famine" does NOT necessarily imply what those people think!

Again, though, thank you for your various clarifications...and I assume that you are Irish since you call the rest of us "foreigners".

[bacabu30]

Thanks Kitty...I think that the word famine implies "extreme & general scarcity of food" and that it mustn't be forgotten that food was in abundance in Ireland - We were and are still a largely agricultural country. The question is, where did the livestock and crops disappear to? The answer is they didn't disappear; British regiments were stationed throughout Ireland under orders to enforce the exportation of this food to England instead of being used to feed the local starving & skeletal Irish.

[KittyStarlight]

To bacabu30: Well, let's just say that this particular famine was extreme and affected *many people*..."general" might not *quite* be it, but let's not forget that the poor people were *many* of the people (see the comments from 50334...and no, that's not me, but I agree with him/her). To 50334: I personally think that any Great Hunger which affects people to that degree *is* a famine. It seems that you think so too. Thanks for posting info on the topic! ^_^ =^___^=

[KittyStarlight]

"Irish" implies that it was of the Irish people (not necessarily all of them...could be just the poor people which of course accounted for a large amount of the population). "Famine" to me implies that it was a great hunger (including starvation in some cases). "Potato famine" implies that it primarily affected those whose main diet was potatoes (that it was "their fault" is NOT implied). I do thank you though for your clarification of the circumstances, since I did my research some time ago.

[KittyStarlight]

Continuing...

I mean that intelligent, educated people do NOT make the particular incorrect assumption that you are talking about, and *certainly* wouldn't think that it was what the words "Irish potato famine" automatically must mean. (Sorry, I ran out of room in my previous post.)

Anyway I agree with you except for the "such as yourself" thing...those poor ignorant fools are NOT "such as myself" and I don't know who they are...sorry if I didn't clarify my first couple of posts enough.

^_^

[chetansingh2006]

mono cropping was bad choice beside the english goverment imperialism had major grudges against the irish catholics and wanted to weaken then considerably.

But iam glad a nation like india did supply food to many irish from death thanx u

[KittyStarlight]

Anyway, yes, I do agree that it is definitely important to *remember the reasons why* the common people in Ireland tended to have little to eat except potatoes...however, *to me* that just brings the point out *even more strongly* that there *was indeed* an *Irish potato famine*...and I'd recommend saying what caused it *instead of* saying that there wasn't one, that the term is a misnomer, etc. (however if you would rather call it something else, that's certainly okay too! ^_^).

^_^

[KittyStarlight]

My time is short (like that of Marley's ghost in A Christmas Carol ^_~) and the space for posting is even shorter...so I guess I will just say here that *to me* "Irish potato famine" DOES NOT *necessarily* have to imply "little or no other food in Ireland" or "the Irish ate only potatoes by choice"...and that *I don't know* what the term may imply to people who are NOT "such as myself" (and aren't educated on the topic at all anyway ^_~).

But I sincerely thank you for your input on the topic.

[bacabu30]

"By calling it a 'famine', or worse still, a 'potato famine', it makes many people abroad incorrectly believe that there was little or no food in Ireland except for potatoes and that the Irish ate only potatoes out of choice!"

This is what I said. I meant to say 'and', as I did, because I often come across the view among foreigners that the Irish ate potatoes out of choice and that is was almost their own fault for relying too much on the potato for food. It most certainly wasn't by choice.

[KittyStarlight]

Oh. Well, thank you for clarifying, but I certainly don't hold the particular incorrect view that you mention, in fact I had never even *heard of or thought of* that particular mistake until you mentioned it!

Actually my best guess is that *some* of the people are confused by *bad history lessons and/or prejudice* rather than by the term itself. "Potato famine" implies that the famine was of potatoes and not of everything. To an intelligent, educated person, it does not imply what you mention.

[KittyStarlight]

Unless I'm mistaken, potatoes were the main crop for a considerable amount of the people, so for them there was a kind of famine (I don't think it matters a whole lot what you call it).

[bacabu30]

Potatoes became the main crop for most of the Irish as the fertile land was confiscated (a nice way of saying 'stolen') from them by the English and the Irish were enslaved. Many ended up having only tiny plots, which could support nothing other than potatoes. To add insult to injury, the Irish had to pay taxes to those who had kicked off off their land. Look up 'penal laws' if you like. The Irish were forbidden basic rights in what was there own country once the English lorded over it.

[KittyStarlight]

As to your "potatoes became the main crop" post, yes, *that's exactly* what I meant (and I *already have* researched it, although not very recently). As to your other recent post, I agree with that too EXCEPT for "such as yourself, incorrectly believe" (aaargh). Point one, I *think* you meant to say "or", not "and", because "there was little or no other food" AND "only potatoes by choice"

makes no sense...and point two, NO, *I* don't believe *either* thing and never claimed that I did.

[bacabu30]

It's a misnomer to refer to it as a 'famine', as the word 'famine' is normally only used when there is little or no food in a country and the people are starving. In Ireland, there was lots of food, more than enough for everyone in fact, as the land was very fertile and produced a huge yield of all kinds of crops. Therefore, it should be more correctly be referred to as the 'Great Hunger'.

[KittyStarlight]

To bacabu30: Well, there may have technically been more than enough *for* everyone, but it *wasn't* getting *to* everyone, and for whatever reason, a lot of the people *were* starving. The particular situation in Ireland at the time is variously referred to as:

The Great Hunger

The Irish Famine

The Irish Potato Famine

(the last of which, I think, suggests that the famine was *particularly of potatoes* and not necessarily of *everything*).

[bacabu30]

Exactly. That's my point entirely. By calling it a 'famine', or worse still, a 'potato famine', it makes many people abroad, such as yourself, incorrectly believe that there was little or no food in Ireland except for potatoes and that the Irish ate only potatoes out of choice! The truth is there was lots of food of many kinds, grown on English-owned Irish land, but the English scandalously exported it from Ireland, while the Irish starved & watched the food leaving Irish ports.

[berryjewell]

A recommendation to see that the Great Hunger still hangs like a black cloud would be two videos on Youtube that will come up if one searches out the words: Ronnie Drew The Dunes.

[bacabu30]

great video

[berryjewell]

It is good of you to mention that. However, to my memory, as best as I recall, someone in the brit gov't only apologized for not doing enough to help ease the famine. No apologies were made for being a huge contributor to the famine never mind acknowledgement of genocide.

[bacabu30]

Tony Blair apologised for it on behalf of Britain a few years ago. You can google it and you'll find links to it. I agree there should be greater awareness of this in Britain. But I also think Ireland can be the bigger person and move on and put the past behind us. Many Britons of the day were innocent and powerless to do anything. This doesn't mean forgetting it but it means not letting it hang over the present like a black cloud. It'll stay in the collective memory but it's history.

[berryjewell]

The fact that Ireland SURVIVED it shows that Ireland is, as you say "the better person" Genocides, murders 100,000 of thousands, mass murders etc are unforgivable tragedies that shall forever hang like a black cloud (there is no choice).It is a scar for the entire life of a nation. The apology was not for the cause of the famine but for not doing enough to assist the victims after its start. It's like murdering a man and apologising ONLY for not helping his friends off their knees at his funeral

[bacabu30]

Fair enough comment. I'm always amazed at how little history English and British people know in general! Most have generally never even heard of the famine in Ireland that their country indirectly caused! The history they learn is so 'sanitized'! They certainly don't learn about the Gorta Mór, the genocide Britain caused in India and the Boer War concentration camps England had in South Africa (a good 30 years before Germany had theirs). The English people of today, though, aren't accountable.

[berryjewell]

Fair play mentioning the Boer War and so on. Agreeably, I don't feel the English persons of today are accountable at all, nor could I hold accountable the English citizens themselves during the tragedy itself & hope that noone would.Those who made government policies, actions and atrocities are whom I would have bad feelings about. "Sanitized" history is prob why people think it was all about spuds. Is a video on this site Search words Ronnie Drew The Dunes that says alot of this Hunger.

[50334]

thanks BACABU30

[bacabu30]

The British Government in recent years has apologized for the widespread famine and hardship they caused in Ireland.

[berryjewell]

PENAL LAWS

"Professor Lecky, a Protestant of British blood and ardent British sympathy, says in his History of Ireland in the 18th Century that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold:

1. To deprive the Catholics of all civil life

2. To reduce them to a condition of most extreme and brutal ignorance

3. To dissociate them from the soil.

4. He might, with absolute justice, substituted Irish for Catholics-and added, (4) to expirate (cause to expire) the Race.

[bacabu30]

well said.

[bacabu30]

It's good you've referred to Lecky as regards the Penals Laws. It's important that the aims of the British Penal Laws are written in black and white so everyone can see the genocide that was being enacted by a country (Britain) that likes to think it invented 'fair play'!

However, it must also be stated that Lecky himself was not anti-Irish. Although an Anglican, and a very moderate Unionist of the day, he was an Irishman himself, being from Dublin.

[berryjewell]

The UN Convention on Genocide lists this as one of the acts which qualify: "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or part."

The Age of Triage: Fear and Hope in an Overcrowded World offers yet another definition. It states, "...a government is as responsible for a genocidal policy when its officials accept mass death as a necessary cost of implementing their policies as when they pursue genocide as an end in itself."

[Antspirit25]

Thanks John for posting this vid. My fathers family left Ireland during the Famine. They made the horrific voyage to Canada. The original farm they came to is still in our family. I hope to visit Ireland one day. My family came from County Cork.

[Marguerite21]

Well, I have to say that the Irish had been victimized by the English for long centeries. No one from the outside of Ireland never knew about their living hell. Only the English knew, but let millions die from starvation. My God! Can anyone ever imagine how fucked up and cold hearted the English were? No! Obviously not! Many English are still cold hearted and Anti-Irish!

[antichav]

obviously the Irish are amazing people tell me why did the upper class Irish (Caths and Prots) sell all there harvested grain instead of helping their irish fellow man?? No no lets ignore that because the Irish arn't bad lets blame the English... we tried to help at the start of the famine but the government can only do so much, and remember what era it was?? we were preoccupied, especially trying to deal with the Debt we got after the Napoleonic Wars... but world history is ignored... obviously

[Marguerite21]

You're so right about that. Many poeple go on about Jew-haters and what about the poor Irish? Thet've been persecuted for years and still are.

[antichav]

still are?? by who may i ask?? now im pretty sure they have their own country... I don't think you have all the facts...

[Marguerite21]

Well actully, I guess only few of them are. In fact, up in Northern Ireland, it is said that the English government allowed those bastards to go around shooting children at schools and other public places. The Northern Irish got very furious and became terrorists. However, I heard that it's gotten better. The last I can say is that there are some English that like to choose to beat up some Irish today.

[antichav]

And there are some Irish who like to beat up English for being English as well, you can't really argue that one either

[Marguerite21]

As far as I can say, I'm not surprised that some Irish like to beat up the English. Sheesh! This kind of shit reminds me of some whites and blacks who like to beat each other up too.

[berryjewell]

WHAT? What planet did you get that "info" from? I would say read some books on the subject and not ones scribbled in crayon. Sorry to be insulting but your remark is insulting to any intelligence and to the facts of history and in my opinion is not worthy of counterpoint facts. That was purely an outrageous comment you made in my opinion.

[BRIGSTOCK]

The rich, landowning British Establishment of the time would probably have been just as indifferent and cruel if the famine had occured in the English or Scottish countryside among my ancestors. Most non bias historians seem to think it CANNOT be called deliberate genocide, but we British still didn't do much to help and for that I am ashamed and sorry.

[diesundas]

Everybody will appreciate your feelings regarding the famine, at the same time it would be more than welcome if a lot more British people could see things like you do. Even if it wasn´t deliberate genocide, the landlords used the opportunity well to get rid of the small renters and gain larger patches of land to breed horses and cattle.

[rumpraisin]

Seeing all the fat slobs in the UK today makes me think that a famine of a few months or so would do the country a whole lot of good.

[bacabu30]

It nice of you, as a Brit, to express this sentiment of friendship and apology. Thanks.

[KittyStarlight]

To BRIGSTOCK: If the famine had happened to the impoverished English, the upper-class English (not all of them, just the uncaring ones) would probably have been *indifferent* ...since it happened to the impoverished Irish, my guess is that some of the rich English were probably *glad*, not just indifferent (and probably would've felt glad if it had happened to the Scots, too). I like your feelings on the topic, I wish more people felt like that. =^__^=

[KittyStarlight]

To BRIGSTOCK again:

By the way I'm American, with ancestors

from Ireland, Scotland, AND England,

AND several other places besides.

=^__^=

[DeCkY2oo7AdW]

majority of newyorkers are irish the arrived there at the time of the famine to escape the destruction thats why there are irish american gangs and so many irish shops there

[KittyStarlight]

To DeCkY2oo7AdW (I *think* I got that right! ^_~): *Many* New Yorkers are Irish, *many* others are Jewish, many others are neither of those... and these days, probably *the majority* are a mix/hodgepodge/conglomeration (the melting pot, and all that kind of thing! ^_~). (However, yes, *a* majority of immigrants to New York *were* Irish...not necessarily *the* majority [although probably they *were* the largest group arriving at that time!] [*not* in the whole history of NYC, though!].)

[KittyStarlight]

TO DeCkY2oo7AdW again, about the "majority" thing: I don't know the actual percentages, but just say for example that 30 to 40% of people living in a certain place were Irish and another 30 to 40% were Jewish...both groups *could* then be considered majority groups rather than minority groups, BUT *neither* group would actually be THE majority of all the people. I THINK that in NYC today there *is no* one majority group any more, due to so many, many people being of various mixes.

[KittyStarlight]

However, many, many, *many* New Yorkers *are*

at least *part* Irish (they *might* even still

be "the majority" today, *if* all the part-Irish

people count! ^_~). (But you'd probably have

to include all the Irish-Italians, Irish-Germans,

Irish-Scandinavians, etc., etc., etc. ^_~)

=^__^=

[IrishNewYorkerr]

it really upsets me that we are not taught about the Irish Famine in American schools. Especially since it highly impacted American history.

[50334]

u should look up the history of the irish famine and what the british did to us at that time.

[IrishNewYorkerr]

I've researched some of it. I know some call it a British genocide by starvation. Theres monuments in Boston and NYC. Prob bc were such close allys with the British-but in my state a thing was passed to teach it as a british genocide in schools-but it will take yrs to actually inact it. And i dunno bout the other states.

[KittyStarlight]

To IrishNewYorkerr: It does kind of seem like

a possibility that, *in addition to* the

potato blight and other problems that were

not (as far as I know) caused by the English,

perhaps the English may have been trying to,

for instance, starve the Irish into submission

(actual "deliberate genocide" may be more extreme

than what really happened...but I wouldn't completely

rule it out as a possibility either!).

[rumpraisin]

Can you tell me why and how did some Irish survive the famine and stay in Ireland, while others either starved to death or emigrated to America?

[thade]

Part of family is originally from the Blasket Islands of the Dingle Peninsula. The islands were unaffected by the famine because of how difficult it is to get to t he islands. and as far as i know one of the only parts of Ireland that was unaffected.

[KittyStarlight]

The Irish Potato Famine (maybe simplified) *is* taught in at least *some* American schools, and certainly appears in American history books and has been documented in American television educational presentations (somehow I always particularly remember the one, probably on the History Channel, that kept saying when it went to commercial break, "The Irish Potato Famine will continue" [oh, dear, I hope not!!! ^_~]). The British part in it is probably less often documented.

[KittyStarlight]

Any American school that is not teaching about the huge rush of Irish immigration to America in the 1840's, about "no Irish need apply", etc. AND at least a LITTLE bit about the famine (or great hunger as some call it) that led to the huge rush of Irish immigration to America...is a school that's not worth its salt. (It may well be that there is far MORE information presented in the college history classes than in schools below that level...but the topic IS taught in SOME schools.)

[KittyStarlight]

What *really* tends to get *almost completely*

left out of the American school version of history

is the long list of atrocities that the English

did to the Scottish (probably that tends to

get left out because it resulted only in a

fairly slow stream of Scottish immigrants to

America over many years, not millions in a

few years as with the Irish).

=^__^=

[seonidh]

Well said kitty, did you also know that at the same time as the Irish famine there was one in the Highlands of Scotland too and when some grain came the overseers made the Scottish Gaels build destitution roads to nowhere to justify the little food they sent. The famine resulted in 2.000.000 Scots emigrating as well mostly to Canada and Australia. Because its still a part of the UK Scottish schools are forced to leave that bit out as well.

[therresak41]

I grew up the seventh of nine Irish catholic and I was never taught any of it either. It really hits home when you get older, for me in my forties and you see the history of your blood, your people. The ones who should truly be ashamed are the English, but they're all dead now aren't they, too bad their arrogance and indifferance are not dead too.

[chris302uk]

I spend a lot of time defending the yanks, from thicko English who say that they're arrogant and blow the shit out of everyone. There's reckoned to be eight million people in England with Irish ancestory, and we're small comapred to you; so i ask you then are the English all arrogant

[KittyStarlight]

To chris302uk: There's reckoned to be I don't know how many million people in America with Irish ancestry too... it's been said that there are more Irish in America than in Ireland. Thanks for defending the Yanks ^_~ (and, no, the English are not all arrogant and neither are the Americans, or the Australians or Canadians, either, but rudeness and brattiness exist everywhere, apparently [there's lots of arrogant English people complaining arrogantly about arrogant Americans! ^_~]).

[chris302uk]

No worries, Kitty. Agree with all you've said, Take care of yourself.

[KittyStarlight]

To chris302uk: Thanks. ^_^ You too. ^_^ (I'm always glad to discover yet another English person who does NOT think that all Americans are brats, losers, etc. [I realize that going by *some* of us it's kind of hard to tell, though!!! ^_~]. I know [online] several nice English people who like most Americans most of the time. [Most of us are reasonably tolerable people once you get to know us. ^_~ The bad apples didn't *really* spoil the whole batch (yet)! ^_~]) =^__^=

[chris302uk]

Thanks Kitty

All the americans I've met have been lovely people; and as they've said after your elections you've got a great capacity to reinvent yourselves, there's not many countries that can do that, we don't over here

[SwannyPHD]

im ashamed of my country, we werent taught any of this in school, i wonder why

[craigieboy2001]

i agree with swanny. never taught any of this in school and it makes me ashmed of my country. Please don't stereotype all english though. Some of us are not arrogant and big headed, and some of us feel genuinely ashamed for the misery our country caused across the world. But as the saying goes, "we wasn't even alive then". So please don't blame ordinary english people today for the crap that idiot english people did yesterday.

[KittyStarlight]

To craigieboy2001: I agree about "we wasn't even alive then" (and I, for one, do *not* "blame ordinary English people today for the crap that idiot English people did yesterday"). (Hey, I kind of know how that goes...there was some apparent lunatic or something [at YouTube] saying that it was supposedly terrible/inappropriate of Americans to sing "This Land is Your Land", because the land was originally the Native Americans' land...for pete's sake, that was *long* ago!!!)

[50334]

yes i agree with you as the rich get richer the poor get poorer and the in between stay the same.

[pythag123]

close.. the <richest> get richer while the <poorest> get poorer.

[cullyrads]

The 2nd wealthiest yet so muc poverty still exists which must be eradicated.