it only chooses evil all the time! even when doing something"good"or"moral"it is not to the glory of GOD and without faith so therefore its evil in the eyes of GOD we are not even "free" to sin! since we live in GODS universe and HIS purposes must be fullfilled we can only do what,when,where,how and for as long as HE determines it to happen!man hates this!man hates this!he hates to think that he has no ability he wants to take credit for"any and or everything"he doesn't want to aknowledge GOD
the problem with this is that the bible says 1- we are slaves of sin ! the question is at what time do people punch out and become free to make a choice any choice? at 9 pm? maybe some at 5pm? we are"sinfull" anything that is done outside of faith its sinfull and being driven by sinfull desires yes even eating doritos 2-the will does not make choices in and of itself ! it is the mind that makes the choice!! the will its subservient to the mind and since the unregenerate mind its an enemy of GOD
the calvinist definition of free will is not the definition that most people commonly hold, so if you are an honest, you need to always spell out what the calvinist definition is before you start tossing the term around. wasn't it Erasmus who wrote the freedom of the will? you just happen to be pushing your calvinist take on the question. your argument is a certain interpretation of the Biblical text--it's not the text; lots of Christians don't subscribe to your theological persuasion.
wow. I've never really thought about free will from the Christian perspective. I really must thank you for introducing a new idea to me (the idea that you don't have free will to not sin.) Just goes to show that you CAN learn something from people with completely different beliefs.
funny. by your logic, god selects some for eternal hellfire and some for heaven. do you honestly believe that arbitrarily selecting some to suffer forever simply because you can is merciful? to choose to send people to hell when you don't have to doesn't strike me as the attribute of a loving god
@JoelTheCalvinist then the purpose of his will doesn't include the well being of everyone. the purpose of his will therefore is that at least one person should be tortured forever for no reason since god can do anything and therefore can accomplish what he wants without hurting anyone. no one forces gods hand, he makes the rules, so why would he hurt anyone for any reason if he can help it. strange
@JoelTheCalvinist and his own glory includes the torture of his own creations if they don't believe in him. so he makes the rules, he isn't forced to do anything and so he voluntarily hurts people because he simply can. and you love this god? really? amazing. never come near me
Free will means the suspension of God Virtues or attributes..God would have to suspend power or knowledge etc to give man free will There cannot be two free will entitys in the universe at the same time and both be free.Unless they are of equal virtue and attribute.Only God is completly free.
Joel. God is like the fireman who set a fire (Original sin) and then send his son to put it out. It his of his own making,This like God throws you in the lake and then offer you a way out.
God created Adam and Eve. God created the Garden of Eden. God permitted the serpent to tempt Eve. God banished Adam and Eve.
Here's where I get into trouble.
God created Adam and Eve KNOWING that they would fail the test that he placed before them. He could have made Eve have a will strong enough to resist the snake.
God set the stage, script and actors. How can anyone but God be responsible for the creation of original sin?
Yes, in fact God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and put it in the center of the Garden.
I would encourage you to read "Spectacular Sins" by John Piper if you get a chance.
Basically, God permits evil to exist in his universe without destroying it immediately to give the chance to glorify himself fully on the Cross of Christ, which would have been impossible without sin.
No doubt we are born into sin...that is in the scripture. God loves us and is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL would come to repentance.2Pet.3:9
Thats why the Father has drawn ALL men unto Him. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me Jn.12:32...
Woah, I just said that Jesus is the Father, did anyone catch that. But nothing changes the fact that each person must choose for themselves.
"If God "causes" people to choose God, why doesn't he "cause" every sinner in the entire earth to choose God?"
That's not a question for me, that's a question for God. I would hope that you believe He has that ability. If you answer "free will" as God's gift, it would seem more like a problem if it were the sole reason that parts of creation go to hell. Luckily, Scripture speaks on the other end, Romans 9:18... it's God's choice.
Personal accountability is real, but luckily God provides help.
I asked you for your answer, a biblical answer, if you believe that "God causes people to choose Him". You don't have to be God to declare his Word. You don't want to answer that question directly because that statement (God causes people to choose Him) is not biblical.
Sure God can harden someones heart just as Rom. 9:18 says. In Thessalonians he says he will send strong delusion to them that dont have a love of the truth. But that was first their CHOICE.
Well, I hope we agree that our CHOICES determine what happns in our life.
Being born again is an operation God performs and we receive it bc of his grace and through our faith. But no one receives this salvation without first making a choice to turn away from sin and turn to God. God is not inside us making some choose to serve Him and making some reject Him. God created the spirit of man this way for His own pleasure. What pleasure is there for God if we worship whether we like it or not?
I do not deny that we have choices. I'm just asking why some people choose God and some don't.
"But no one receives this salvation without first making a choice to turn away from sin and turn to God."
How can someone who is a slave to sin (Jn 8) suddenly decide to end their slavery and worship a God whose kingdom they can't even see (Jn 3)?
NO ONE can choose to come to Jesus unless God draws (Jn 6) and all the father gives to Jesus WILL come (Jn 6). If it were up to us, none would be saved
@duckiesdad, Because God is not wiling for any to perish, but that all would come to repentance, He will "draw" all men unto himself. Jesus said, "No man can come to the me except my Father which is in heaven draw him." Again Jesus said, "if I be lifted up (speaking of the crucifixion) I will draw all men unto me. There is an underlying revelation that Jesus is God in these two statements. "Drawing" is the Spirit dealing with every individual to come to repentance of sin to faith in God.
I'm not a fatalist, I'm a Biblist. I believe that God knows everything (including the future). I believe that everything that God has determined to do will happen and will never be thwarted. You don't have a problem with Calvinists, you have a problem with the God of the Bible.
"go see what the fruits of calvinism are."
You mean the reformation of the church? Making Scripture available to all? Evangelizing to the entire western world? It seems you know little about true Biblical Calvinism.
You have a gifted and amazing way of seeing things through God's words. I have also heard of it explained as "'Free will' is never mentioned in the Bible, not once, however, YouR Will IS---very different." God gave this will to you and may impede on it, thank God, at any point in time as he so pleases. A will without the hand of God being allowed into it is nonexistent and is therefore not FREE to do what we please.
You seem to have a very elementary view of actual Scripture. You were let down by the book because of lack of Scripture, but yet your argument had only one that I heard. Election and predestiation are anti-Bible, and I feel sorry for anyone that believes it.
I would like to humbly ask you an honest preacherboy. If you believe that election and predestination are anti-Bible, then how do you interpret Romans 9 where it is stated that God shows mercy to those that He chooses to show mercy to and that He loved Jacob and hated Esau even before they were born?
So the people who are at this moment suffering in hell are there for 2 reasons. First, they were born "sinners", something over which they had no control. Second, God chose not to save them, something they also had no control over. In short, they were destined for hell before they were even born, and there wasn't a damn thing they could do about it. That, my friend, is what I call a raw deal.
Which of my premises is wrong? Let's say Julius Caesar, as an example, is now in hell. He was born a slave to sin, and God chose not to redeem him. In your view, what control did he have over his own eternal destiny?
Of course, hindsight says that he is in hell. But in the present we do not have divine knowledge to know who is elect or not. I probably would have pronounced the Apostle Paul in hell before his conversion with this mentality
Christianity is not based around Gods knowledge of the elect, it is based around our proving our election to the rest of creation, bearing good fruit and serving God
The "raw deal" is that God lets us live a split second when we sin toward Him. Gratitude is the real deal.
We do not have divine knowledge of Caesar's destiny, no, nor anybody else's for that matter. But surely you must believe there is at least one person in hell, let's call that person "person X.". My question remains unanswered. Person X was born a slave to sin (outside of his control), and God chose not to call that person to repentance (outside of his control). So what control did person X have over his own eternal destiny?
Person X doesn't know what is outside of his control. That lack of knowledge drives us to PROVE which side we are on. We are free to choose, but choosing is enabled by God.
Person X is in hell by very willfully rejecting God. No one is pushed into hell against their will, begging for salvation. Experientially we have complete freedom.
But of course, God did create and subject all of creation to futility for the sake of His glory. Having said that I will answer your questions next comment...
Person X born a slave to sin outside of his control = true.
God chose not to call Person X to repentance = true.
What control does Person X have over his eternal destiny? = Very little. But this is required for grace to be grace. If it were based on our control then heavenly reward would be earned and deserved. It is because of Person X that I can fathom what mercy is. It is because of Person X that I can understand "good."
God has the right over the clay to mold as he chooses. (Rom 9)
I would say mercy and justice are opposites and are mutually exclusive within one context, for instance in final judgment.
And I would say that no one could receive mercy without first having grace. I don't think I can clearly call them opposites. That is an interesting question though.
Let's say you go to heaven, that demonstrates God's mercy. Let's say I go to hell, that demonstrates God's justice. Well, in a sense you are not getting what you deserve, isn't that injustice? And I am receiving no mercy. So at the same time that God demonstrates justice and mercy, also demonstrates injustice and unmercifulness.
Anyway, if it is truly justice that I deserve to burn in hell for all eternity, why not let justice be done? I'm all in favor of justice.
No injustice has been done. It is a nonjustice. An injustice would be me going to hell even though I am perfect. Heaven is not getting what I don't deserve, its not getting what I do deserve.
God is a good God. He wants us to understand that He is merciful. That is only possible with justice also being served. I'm in favor of justice too, but I thank God that I won't receive it.
"Nonjustice?" So if, by way of analogy, a judge were to let a child-murderer go free, and not only go free but give him a million dollars, that in your book is not an injustice but simply a "nonjustice."
I would say he was a terrible judge. This is the reason that people actually do go to hell. I get into heaven by someone else paying a debt I owe.
The Bible tells us that our sins rack up debt that we have to pay back with blood. Christ paid it. And after he paid it, they became a new person. A new creation.
I'm trying to think of an analogy, but it seems that this situation is universally unique.
All right, my friend. I'll leave it at that. I admire the passion with which you defend your beliefs. I don't agree with you, but I admire your passion.
LOL I wish I went to a theological college. Nah I'm about to graduate from a state university with a degree in information systems. I'm just a Christian web developer. Good convo. Hope I that represented my side best that I could.
Joel would you not say that justice was carried out, as your sentence which should have been put on you was put on Christ? So either we receive the punishment or Christ has done so. Hopefully I read the thread correctly...
In a sense, yes, justice has been served... at the Cross.
But the fact that I can obtain the "non-justice" (not injustice, since justice was served) based on no merit of my own, is the unbalanced side of Grace.
"your sentence which should have been put on you was put on Christ?"
My last sentence was referring to your lack of knowledge on the contemporary philosophy around the topic of free will and determinism, not your lack of knowledge on the terminology. And regarding terminology, I just thought you would want to look more professional.
My goal isn't to be professional, but to educate Christians. If I tell some new Christian that they are participating in modalistic monarchianism what good does it do them?
Also I was trying to stay away from the topic of determinism vs free will (this topic could be for another video) and focus on free will vs pelagianism.
I don't like how you falsly portray such a dichotomy between using correct terminology and educating your viewers. You could easily use the right terminology and also explain what it means.
And if you do make a video on free will and determinism I will make a youtube chanel just to refute your position regardless of what it is.
No. I was just kidding, but didn't you feel good about yourself? I just think I will argue with you because you would probably take the view of compatibilism or determinism. Then I would have to anihilate you.
I always like to be annihilated. I do not believe compatibilism. I lean toward determinism only in the fact that God is in control and knows the future. If Omniscience + Omnipotence = determinism, then that's me.
Feel free to bring the annihilation, maybe I can learn something.
I think you are already suffering from a misunderstanding of what determinism is. It is a CAUSAL thesis. It claims that all of your actions are CAUSED by previous conditions such as your environment, parents, etc. Thus, what can you prove by pointing our that God knows everything and is all-powerful? It has nothing to do with free will and determinism.
Hmmm. In that case I don't believe either. In further study, I made the mistake of mixing determinism and fatalism. Will you annihilate me for fatalism instead?
Yeah, I think fatalism is flawed severely. Essentially, the veracity of future-tense statements is irrelevant to whether or not you are the origin of your actions.
That's not exactly what I believe, but kinda close. I believe my actions are not irrelevant but that I am the product of my desires. And my desires do originate from me.
So in a round about way, I am not the origin of my actions, my desires are. My desires come from two opposing forces that God bends to his will.
I am actually wanting to be annihilated now. Since I am a Christian, philosophy doesn't really carry any weight for me. If you can convince me God isn't real, that would be different.
I agree with your conclusions, but I don't agree with the way you word things, and I don't agree that saying we have free will necessitates that we are born (or are at some point) sinless.
I would say that we do have free will to choose to love God and obey His commands. The problem is that we are Morally Unable to do so. So we CAN, but we WILL NOT. So our will is limited by our own natural depravity, not by some external limitation. We limit our own will.
OH, I see your point now. Thanks for the clarification.
I still would word it differently. I certainly did not choose to be born a sinner--that is, with a sinful nature / natural depravity. But I did choose to become a sinner--that is, when I sin, I willingly oppose God and His righteous commands.
Being clear in speech and writing has been a goal of mine for a long time, especially in the area of predestination (and sound doctrine, in general). God has really been answering that prayer for me.
I appreciate your passion for the proclamation of the truth.
I Cant wait for that ' what Happens to evil babies when they die?', video
I doubt the Bible Make any exemption for an age of accountability.
Still If babies are not accountable Because they are not able to learn of Jesus that Most people though most of history fall in to this category as well ,
and you begin to fall down the slippery slope of Inclusivism.
But to answer your question, God is perfect and we are not. There is only one way to that and its Jesus. God chooses whom he wills. Thats just the way it is.
"If you assert there is even a higher force, you are not agnostic."
to deconstruct the word like so can render that conclusion, yes. but agnosticism is generally used to describe the worldview that asserts that 1) there IS something out there, but 2) that it cannot be known any further than that (knowing its sheer existence).
the problem with it is this: if we can learn anything about anything (we obviously can since we're on computers, dialoguing via language), then we automatically are learning something about that divine Something, since, as gubs put it, "that god IS and is the reason for existence."
if he/she/it is the reason for existence, and we can know things about existence, then we are inevitably following the breadcrumbs to God's throne. aka, we can know something about him.
Are you a Christian? If so we can continue this conversation.
If God determines who goes to heaven or hell then I am more apt to go out and evangelize
Let me ask, have you ever really prayed for someone's salvation? I mean really asked God to save someone? If God doesn't decide, why are you praying to him?
If it were based on decisions to come to God, I would be less likely to preach to convicts, scholars, etc. Because I know they won't change their mind. But if God is the power behind it...
Yes i understand that it is the holy spirit that work though you to Fulfill Yahews plan. This does not make the plan any less contrived and Evil from our perspective.
You Say sending Billions of souls to eternal Hell Fire is a purposeful and Beautiful doctrine.
This is foolishness to anyone that is not a calvinist, So again how can your ministry bear fruit?
"What Purpose is there for God to create such a futile existence where he Consciously sends billions souls to Hell; to what end?"
Its for His glory. You must understand your purpose on earth. Its not to enjoy the scenery, to get rich, or to make good decisions. Your life was loaned to you so that you could spread the name of God. That is His desire.
You dont think oit possible that any of your (HUMBLE) assumptions could be wrong, That you know Yahews desires, that yahew is god, and the bible is yahews true Word. I dont Understand these things and I dont know how anyone esle claims to know this Objectivly Eithier.
"If we are all Predestined to heaven or Foreordained to hell , what is the Purpose of ministry or bearing witness for Jesus."
Because the God of the ends is also the means to those ends. Preaching the gospel is the means that God has ordained to bring His ends to pass. He doesn't work through fatalism, rather, he works through means.
If a man is to be saved (the ends), he will be saved THROUGH believing the gospel that was preached to him. (the means to that end)
Great opinion, I'll consider checking out some of the books you mentioned.
But isn't free will (Referring to choice between good and evil, not divine perfection), also accepting responsibility for one's actions as well? If everything was predetermined, than no person could be held accountable for whatever bad or good things they do.
That is exactly what Augustine brings up in his book that I mentioned.
The answer is... we are accountable because we do not have divine knowledge. Even though I act completely in accordance with what has been set out, my heart is rebellious in a very real sense.
Just like a guy who drives 50 MPH where ever he goes. Doesnt care about anyone. Is he obedient when the speed limit happens to read 50MPH? God says, no he's not.
There of course is a bit of mystery that surrounds it. Keep searching!
Only Calvinists can say babies go to heaven, because we believe God can grant mercy to whomever He desires.
Arminians must either invent lies (age of accountability), or accept that babies go to hell because in their system, they MUST make the all important human choice in order to be saved, and of course, a baby can't do that.
it only chooses evil all the time! even when doing something"good"or"moral"it is not to the glory of GOD and without faith so therefore its evil in the eyes of GOD we are not even "free" to sin! since we live in GODS universe and HIS purposes must be fullfilled we can only do what,when,where,how and for as long as HE determines it to happen!man hates this!man hates this!he hates to think that he has no ability he wants to take credit for"any and or everything"he doesn't want to aknowledge GOD
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
the problem with this is that the bible says 1- we are slaves of sin ! the question is at what time do people punch out and become free to make a choice any choice? at 9 pm? maybe some at 5pm? we are"sinfull" anything that is done outside of faith its sinfull and being driven by sinfull desires yes even eating doritos 2-the will does not make choices in and of itself ! it is the mind that makes the choice!! the will its subservient to the mind and since the unregenerate mind its an enemy of GOD
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
the calvinist definition of free will is not the definition that most people commonly hold, so if you are an honest, you need to always spell out what the calvinist definition is before you start tossing the term around. wasn't it Erasmus who wrote the freedom of the will? you just happen to be pushing your calvinist take on the question. your argument is a certain interpretation of the Biblical text--it's not the text; lots of Christians don't subscribe to your theological persuasion.
roaringwaterbay 6 months ago
wow. I've never really thought about free will from the Christian perspective. I really must thank you for introducing a new idea to me (the idea that you don't have free will to not sin.) Just goes to show that you CAN learn something from people with completely different beliefs.
slphillips05 1 year ago
funny. by your logic, god selects some for eternal hellfire and some for heaven. do you honestly believe that arbitrarily selecting some to suffer forever simply because you can is merciful? to choose to send people to hell when you don't have to doesn't strike me as the attribute of a loving god
chrispollock 1 year ago
@chrispollock - I never said it was arbitrary. It never is. It is according to the purpose of his will (Eph 1).
God sends people to hell because they are sinners without a savior.
JoelTheCalvinist 1 year ago
@JoelTheCalvinist then the purpose of his will doesn't include the well being of everyone. the purpose of his will therefore is that at least one person should be tortured forever for no reason since god can do anything and therefore can accomplish what he wants without hurting anyone. no one forces gods hand, he makes the rules, so why would he hurt anyone for any reason if he can help it. strange
chrispollock 1 year ago
@chrispollock - "then the purpose of his will doesn't include the well being of everyone"
You are exactly correct. His will includes the call to well being, but for the purpose of his own glory.
He definitely does make the rules.
JoelTheCalvinist 1 year ago
@JoelTheCalvinist and his own glory includes the torture of his own creations if they don't believe in him. so he makes the rules, he isn't forced to do anything and so he voluntarily hurts people because he simply can. and you love this god? really? amazing. never come near me
chrispollock 1 year ago
Free will means the suspension of God Virtues or attributes..God would have to suspend power or knowledge etc to give man free will There cannot be two free will entitys in the universe at the same time and both be free.Unless they are of equal virtue and attribute.Only God is completly free.
polopowers1 2 years ago
sin is a christian cop out....all choices have consequences
NathairSaille 2 years ago
"all choices have consequences"
Yes, they do. This is the foundation for Christian doctrine.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Joel. God is like the fireman who set a fire (Original sin) and then send his son to put it out. It his of his own making,This like God throws you in the lake and then offer you a way out.
quebec10000 2 years ago
Here is the real question.
God created Adam and Eve. God created the Garden of Eden. God permitted the serpent to tempt Eve. God banished Adam and Eve.
Here's where I get into trouble.
God created Adam and Eve KNOWING that they would fail the test that he placed before them. He could have made Eve have a will strong enough to resist the snake.
God set the stage, script and actors. How can anyone but God be responsible for the creation of original sin?
SavedbyReason 2 years ago
Yes, in fact God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and put it in the center of the Garden.
I would encourage you to read "Spectacular Sins" by John Piper if you get a chance.
Basically, God permits evil to exist in his universe without destroying it immediately to give the chance to glorify himself fully on the Cross of Christ, which would have been impossible without sin.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
You didn't answer my question.
If God sets the rules, sets the pieces and knows where they will go, he is directly responsible for what happens.
It's akin to sharpening a knife and then blaming that knife for cutting you. It doesn't make any sense.
> God permits evil to exist ... to give the chance to glorify himself fully on the Cross of Christ
If you believe that, then your God is truly evil. To put so many through pain, rape and murder just for his own glory? Horrible.
SavedbyReason 2 years ago
No doubt we are born into sin...that is in the scripture. God loves us and is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL would come to repentance.2Pet.3:9
Thats why the Father has drawn ALL men unto Him. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me Jn.12:32...
Woah, I just said that Jesus is the Father, did anyone catch that. But nothing changes the fact that each person must choose for themselves.
Joshua 24:15 Choose you this day
Everyday we have the same choice!
nrhouseman 2 years ago
I'm not saying that people don't choose, I'm saying what is it in the person that inclines them to choose God? I'm saying it's God.
I think the whole of Scripture points to man's inability and pure need of God's grace. Anything else puts man higher than he ought to be.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Ok I think I know your thoughts on "free will". How do you feel about "personal accountability"?
We are responsible if we choose to reject God or if we choose to walk away from God and go into unbelief. Right?
If God "causes" people to choose God, why doesn't he "cause" every sinner in the entire earth to choose God?
No doubt we are in need of God's grace...total agreement...Mankind is altogether filthy in the sight of a Holy God
nrhouseman 2 years ago
"If God "causes" people to choose God, why doesn't he "cause" every sinner in the entire earth to choose God?"
That's not a question for me, that's a question for God. I would hope that you believe He has that ability. If you answer "free will" as God's gift, it would seem more like a problem if it were the sole reason that parts of creation go to hell. Luckily, Scripture speaks on the other end, Romans 9:18... it's God's choice.
Personal accountability is real, but luckily God provides help.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
I asked you for your answer, a biblical answer, if you believe that "God causes people to choose Him". You don't have to be God to declare his Word. You don't want to answer that question directly because that statement (God causes people to choose Him) is not biblical.
Sure God can harden someones heart just as Rom. 9:18 says. In Thessalonians he says he will send strong delusion to them that dont have a love of the truth. But that was first their CHOICE.
nrhouseman 2 years ago
Well, I hope we agree that our CHOICES determine what happns in our life.
Being born again is an operation God performs and we receive it bc of his grace and through our faith. But no one receives this salvation without first making a choice to turn away from sin and turn to God. God is not inside us making some choose to serve Him and making some reject Him. God created the spirit of man this way for His own pleasure. What pleasure is there for God if we worship whether we like it or not?
nrhouseman 2 years ago
I do not deny that we have choices. I'm just asking why some people choose God and some don't.
"But no one receives this salvation without first making a choice to turn away from sin and turn to God."
How can someone who is a slave to sin (Jn 8) suddenly decide to end their slavery and worship a God whose kingdom they can't even see (Jn 3)?
NO ONE can choose to come to Jesus unless God draws (Jn 6) and all the father gives to Jesus WILL come (Jn 6). If it were up to us, none would be saved
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
@nrhouseman What does that mean for Jesus to draw all men unto himself?
duckiesdad 2 years ago
@duckiesdad, Because God is not wiling for any to perish, but that all would come to repentance, He will "draw" all men unto himself. Jesus said, "No man can come to the me except my Father which is in heaven draw him." Again Jesus said, "if I be lifted up (speaking of the crucifixion) I will draw all men unto me. There is an underlying revelation that Jesus is God in these two statements. "Drawing" is the Spirit dealing with every individual to come to repentance of sin to faith in God.
nrhouseman 2 years ago
why don;t you just come out of the closet and admit you are a fatalist?
you make these videos that beat around the bush.
just come out of the closet admitting you are a fatalist like all calvinists are.
TheWoodsofJordan came out of the closet yesterday and admitted he is a fatalist!
he didn't beat around the bush at all.
go see what the fruits of calvinism are.
go to his video and see how many atheists are being pushed away from the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.
simple475 2 years ago
I'm not a fatalist, I'm a Biblist. I believe that God knows everything (including the future). I believe that everything that God has determined to do will happen and will never be thwarted. You don't have a problem with Calvinists, you have a problem with the God of the Bible.
"go see what the fruits of calvinism are."
You mean the reformation of the church? Making Scripture available to all? Evangelizing to the entire western world? It seems you know little about true Biblical Calvinism.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
What I find interesting, is when we ask God to take the reins in our life we are asking Him for less of our will and more of His. Yay! :)
seeulater2day 2 years ago
You have a gifted and amazing way of seeing things through God's words. I have also heard of it explained as "'Free will' is never mentioned in the Bible, not once, however, YouR Will IS---very different." God gave this will to you and may impede on it, thank God, at any point in time as he so pleases. A will without the hand of God being allowed into it is nonexistent and is therefore not FREE to do what we please.
seeulater2day 2 years ago
You seem to have a very elementary view of actual Scripture. You were let down by the book because of lack of Scripture, but yet your argument had only one that I heard. Election and predestiation are anti-Bible, and I feel sorry for anyone that believes it.
preacherboy2277 2 years ago
I would like to humbly ask you an honest preacherboy. If you believe that election and predestination are anti-Bible, then how do you interpret Romans 9 where it is stated that God shows mercy to those that He chooses to show mercy to and that He loved Jacob and hated Esau even before they were born?
posttenebraslux100 2 years ago
Well stated. I believe Robert Reymond stated it well when he said there is no such thing as the liberty of indifference.
kbphilly8 2 years ago
i think som chrstians still don´t get the point of the Eden & Appel.
The sanke sybols the bad, that is true cous the bad can only exists if you have a free will.
The Appel symbols, the free will, beeing on our own, not interfeard by god anymore or gudied by it.
Addam & Eva symbols the humanity.
The Free will was the better choose. i will choos what i ll do, cous i am a human.
ther is no limit to my will.
okay ther are ethik borders you should follow, but its only to you if you follow or not
Beneke00001 2 years ago
"What percent of people sin?........looks around.......100% percent of people sin." lol i dunno why but i found that funny....and also very true
robberry33 2 years ago
So the people who are at this moment suffering in hell are there for 2 reasons. First, they were born "sinners", something over which they had no control. Second, God chose not to save them, something they also had no control over. In short, they were destined for hell before they were even born, and there wasn't a damn thing they could do about it. That, my friend, is what I call a raw deal.
MKamm1355 2 years ago
Thats called fatalism and its not Christianity.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Which of my premises is wrong? Let's say Julius Caesar, as an example, is now in hell. He was born a slave to sin, and God chose not to redeem him. In your view, what control did he have over his own eternal destiny?
MKamm1355 2 years ago
Of course, hindsight says that he is in hell. But in the present we do not have divine knowledge to know who is elect or not. I probably would have pronounced the Apostle Paul in hell before his conversion with this mentality
Christianity is not based around Gods knowledge of the elect, it is based around our proving our election to the rest of creation, bearing good fruit and serving God
The "raw deal" is that God lets us live a split second when we sin toward Him. Gratitude is the real deal.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
We do not have divine knowledge of Caesar's destiny, no, nor anybody else's for that matter. But surely you must believe there is at least one person in hell, let's call that person "person X.". My question remains unanswered. Person X was born a slave to sin (outside of his control), and God chose not to call that person to repentance (outside of his control). So what control did person X have over his own eternal destiny?
MKamm1355 2 years ago
Person X doesn't know what is outside of his control. That lack of knowledge drives us to PROVE which side we are on. We are free to choose, but choosing is enabled by God.
Person X is in hell by very willfully rejecting God. No one is pushed into hell against their will, begging for salvation. Experientially we have complete freedom.
But of course, God did create and subject all of creation to futility for the sake of His glory. Having said that I will answer your questions next comment...
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Person X born a slave to sin outside of his control = true.
God chose not to call Person X to repentance = true.
What control does Person X have over his eternal destiny? = Very little. But this is required for grace to be grace. If it were based on our control then heavenly reward would be earned and deserved. It is because of Person X that I can fathom what mercy is. It is because of Person X that I can understand "good."
God has the right over the clay to mold as he chooses. (Rom 9)
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Are grace and justice opposites? In other words, are they mutually exclusive?
MKamm1355 2 years ago
I would say mercy and justice are opposites and are mutually exclusive within one context, for instance in final judgment.
And I would say that no one could receive mercy without first having grace. I don't think I can clearly call them opposites. That is an interesting question though.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Let's say you go to heaven, that demonstrates God's mercy. Let's say I go to hell, that demonstrates God's justice. Well, in a sense you are not getting what you deserve, isn't that injustice? And I am receiving no mercy. So at the same time that God demonstrates justice and mercy, also demonstrates injustice and unmercifulness.
Anyway, if it is truly justice that I deserve to burn in hell for all eternity, why not let justice be done? I'm all in favor of justice.
MKamm1355 2 years ago
No injustice has been done. It is a nonjustice. An injustice would be me going to hell even though I am perfect. Heaven is not getting what I don't deserve, its not getting what I do deserve.
God is a good God. He wants us to understand that He is merciful. That is only possible with justice also being served. I'm in favor of justice too, but I thank God that I won't receive it.
And I think thats the point.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
"Nonjustice?" So if, by way of analogy, a judge were to let a child-murderer go free, and not only go free but give him a million dollars, that in your book is not an injustice but simply a "nonjustice."
MKamm1355 2 years ago
I would say he was a terrible judge. This is the reason that people actually do go to hell. I get into heaven by someone else paying a debt I owe.
The Bible tells us that our sins rack up debt that we have to pay back with blood. Christ paid it. And after he paid it, they became a new person. A new creation.
I'm trying to think of an analogy, but it seems that this situation is universally unique.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
All right, my friend. I'll leave it at that. I admire the passion with which you defend your beliefs. I don't agree with you, but I admire your passion.
Did you go to Calvin College?
MKamm1355 2 years ago
LOL I wish I went to a theological college. Nah I'm about to graduate from a state university with a degree in information systems. I'm just a Christian web developer. Good convo. Hope I that represented my side best that I could.
Peace.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Joel would you not say that justice was carried out, as your sentence which should have been put on you was put on Christ? So either we receive the punishment or Christ has done so. Hopefully I read the thread correctly...
kbphilly8 2 years ago
In a sense, yes, justice has been served... at the Cross.
But the fact that I can obtain the "non-justice" (not injustice, since justice was served) based on no merit of my own, is the unbalanced side of Grace.
"your sentence which should have been put on you was put on Christ?"
That's the nonjustice. Amen.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
I think we are in agreement :)
kbphilly8 2 years ago
It's not "free willist." They are called libertarians. I hate it when people don't study up on what contemporary philosophers say about this.
trevoaij44 2 years ago
Who cares about the name? Nomenclature doesn't define the substance, and just because it has a name doesn't make it more meaningful.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
My last sentence was referring to your lack of knowledge on the contemporary philosophy around the topic of free will and determinism, not your lack of knowledge on the terminology. And regarding terminology, I just thought you would want to look more professional.
trevoaij44 2 years ago
My goal isn't to be professional, but to educate Christians. If I tell some new Christian that they are participating in modalistic monarchianism what good does it do them?
Also I was trying to stay away from the topic of determinism vs free will (this topic could be for another video) and focus on free will vs pelagianism.
Thanks though.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
I don't like how you falsly portray such a dichotomy between using correct terminology and educating your viewers. You could easily use the right terminology and also explain what it means.
And if you do make a video on free will and determinism I will make a youtube chanel just to refute your position regardless of what it is.
Always watching,
Your loyal minion
trevoaij44 2 years ago
That's intense! So you just want to argue with my position, no matter what? Dang. Sorry if I offended you brother.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
No. I was just kidding, but didn't you feel good about yourself? I just think I will argue with you because you would probably take the view of compatibilism or determinism. Then I would have to anihilate you.
trevoaij44 2 years ago
I always like to be annihilated. I do not believe compatibilism. I lean toward determinism only in the fact that God is in control and knows the future. If Omniscience + Omnipotence = determinism, then that's me.
Feel free to bring the annihilation, maybe I can learn something.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
I think you are already suffering from a misunderstanding of what determinism is. It is a CAUSAL thesis. It claims that all of your actions are CAUSED by previous conditions such as your environment, parents, etc. Thus, what can you prove by pointing our that God knows everything and is all-powerful? It has nothing to do with free will and determinism.
trevoaij44 2 years ago
Hmmm. In that case I don't believe either. In further study, I made the mistake of mixing determinism and fatalism. Will you annihilate me for fatalism instead?
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
Yeah, I think fatalism is flawed severely. Essentially, the veracity of future-tense statements is irrelevant to whether or not you are the origin of your actions.
trevoaij44 2 years ago
That's not exactly what I believe, but kinda close. I believe my actions are not irrelevant but that I am the product of my desires. And my desires do originate from me.
So in a round about way, I am not the origin of my actions, my desires are. My desires come from two opposing forces that God bends to his will.
I am actually wanting to be annihilated now. Since I am a Christian, philosophy doesn't really carry any weight for me. If you can convince me God isn't real, that would be different.
JoelTheCalvinist 2 years ago
I plan to have a youtube channel in the summer. So you should be patient.
trevoaij44 2 years ago
GREAT STUFF.
GOD BLESS
GodIsReal101 2 years ago
Keep up the good Work Joel. I understand your videos and you are doing a good job defending the gospel of Grace.
ChristianTULIP 3 years ago
I agree with your conclusions, but I don't agree with the way you word things, and I don't agree that saying we have free will necessitates that we are born (or are at some point) sinless.
I would say that we do have free will to choose to love God and obey His commands. The problem is that we are Morally Unable to do so. So we CAN, but we WILL NOT. So our will is limited by our own natural depravity, not by some external limitation. We limit our own will.
Look2Logic 3 years ago
Good words, but man did not subject existence to futility, God did. I didn't choose to inherit Adam's sin and I didn't choose to become a sinner.
I was born that way.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
OH, I see your point now. Thanks for the clarification.
I still would word it differently. I certainly did not choose to be born a sinner--that is, with a sinful nature / natural depravity. But I did choose to become a sinner--that is, when I sin, I willingly oppose God and His righteous commands.
Look2Logic 3 years ago
Perfect.
Yeah, I'm bad with getting the little nuances right when I'm talking. Sorry.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
No worries.
Being clear in speech and writing has been a goal of mine for a long time, especially in the area of predestination (and sound doctrine, in general). God has really been answering that prayer for me.
I appreciate your passion for the proclamation of the truth.
Look2Logic 3 years ago
WE ARE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD.
FORCHRST 3 years ago
I Cant wait for that ' what Happens to evil babies when they die?', video
I doubt the Bible Make any exemption for an age of accountability.
Still If babies are not accountable Because they are not able to learn of Jesus that Most people though most of history fall in to this category as well ,
and you begin to fall down the slippery slope of Inclusivism.
gusb232 3 years ago
I would fall down the slippery slope of Calvinism. Election is the most beautiful doctrine in the Bible.
Tell me, good sir, where do babies go when they die?
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
I am Not a Christian and I dont declare to know the unknowable.
This not a problem for me , You are the one claiming you know.
gusb232 3 years ago
Oh so God is unknowable? Do you know that?
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
I assert that god IS and is the reason for existence.
Claiming to know the Mind and Personal attributes that happen to also be Anthropomorphic is I SLIGHTLY larger claim.
gusb232 3 years ago
God's attributes are not anthropomorphic. The Bible doesn't claim that either.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
Do I have to take you by the hand about your own relgion?
Yahew is a God that Get Angry! Is Vengeful, who loved Saul and Hated Esau.
This contradicts that ideal of Yahew as Logos.
Yahew is bipolar!
gusb232 3 years ago
Ironic...
Yahew = YHWH = Yahweh
God loved Jacob and hated Esau
Logos means Word when referring to God.
gusb232 is uneducated!
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
But to answer your question, God is perfect and we are not. There is only one way to that and its Jesus. God chooses whom he wills. Thats just the way it is.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
So what do you call your religion?
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
Religion is a False bureaucracy between the knowlage and the Numinous.
I Consider myself an Agnostic Pandeist, among other things.
gusb232 3 years ago
"I assert that god IS and is the reason for existence."
"I Consider myself an Agnostic Pandeist"
I don't think you know what Agnostic means.
"a" - not, un
"gnosis" - to know
agnostic = not knowing or unable to know.
If you assert there is even a higher force, you are not agnostic.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
"If you assert there is even a higher force, you are not agnostic."
to deconstruct the word like so can render that conclusion, yes. but agnosticism is generally used to describe the worldview that asserts that 1) there IS something out there, but 2) that it cannot be known any further than that (knowing its sheer existence).
johnblythe 3 years ago
the problem with it is this: if we can learn anything about anything (we obviously can since we're on computers, dialoguing via language), then we automatically are learning something about that divine Something, since, as gubs put it, "that god IS and is the reason for existence."
if he/she/it is the reason for existence, and we can know things about existence, then we are inevitably following the breadcrumbs to God's throne. aka, we can know something about him.
johnblythe 3 years ago
If we are all Predestined to heaven or Foreordained to hell , what is the Purpose of ministry or bearing witness for Jesus.
Are you saying that even though God created Us sinful and commanded us to be sinless.
We are still just cogs in a yahew's cosmic machine.
What Purpose is there for God to create such a futile existence where he Consciously sends billions souls to Hell; to what end?
If we are created in his image, Why do I see these actions as obviously Evil!?
gusb232 3 years ago
Are you a Christian? If so we can continue this conversation.
If God determines who goes to heaven or hell then I am more apt to go out and evangelize
Let me ask, have you ever really prayed for someone's salvation? I mean really asked God to save someone? If God doesn't decide, why are you praying to him?
If it were based on decisions to come to God, I would be less likely to preach to convicts, scholars, etc. Because I know they won't change their mind. But if God is the power behind it...
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
Yes i understand that it is the holy spirit that work though you to Fulfill Yahews plan. This does not make the plan any less contrived and Evil from our perspective.
You Say sending Billions of souls to eternal Hell Fire is a purposeful and Beautiful doctrine.
This is foolishness to anyone that is not a calvinist, So again how can your ministry bear fruit?
This is Now
gusb232 3 years ago
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
-Paul
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
No you didnt!
LOL
Your a Freakin Hamster.
That Trueism only works if your assumptions that you already know that ONLY your God saves and that you are not the Foolish one.
Lets Assume life is Test or a Cosmic Game for god. Would God give you brownie points for Credulity?
gusb232 3 years ago
If I could prove Christianity to you, evangelism would be pointless. It's not about some logical syllogism, its about serving God.
Believe it or not man, but you sought me out and asked me questions. I'm just answering questions and you call me a small domestic rodent.
:|
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
"What Purpose is there for God to create such a futile existence where he Consciously sends billions souls to Hell; to what end?"
Its for His glory. You must understand your purpose on earth. Its not to enjoy the scenery, to get rich, or to make good decisions. Your life was loaned to you so that you could spread the name of God. That is His desire.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
You dont think oit possible that any of your (HUMBLE) assumptions could be wrong, That you know Yahews desires, that yahew is god, and the bible is yahews true Word. I dont Understand these things and I dont know how anyone esle claims to know this Objectivly Eithier.
gusb232 3 years ago
"If we are all Predestined to heaven or Foreordained to hell , what is the Purpose of ministry or bearing witness for Jesus."
Because the God of the ends is also the means to those ends. Preaching the gospel is the means that God has ordained to bring His ends to pass. He doesn't work through fatalism, rather, he works through means.
If a man is to be saved (the ends), he will be saved THROUGH believing the gospel that was preached to him. (the means to that end)
skalapunk 3 years ago
Great opinion, I'll consider checking out some of the books you mentioned.
But isn't free will (Referring to choice between good and evil, not divine perfection), also accepting responsibility for one's actions as well? If everything was predetermined, than no person could be held accountable for whatever bad or good things they do.
fuzzyforever 3 years ago
That is exactly what Augustine brings up in his book that I mentioned.
The answer is... we are accountable because we do not have divine knowledge. Even though I act completely in accordance with what has been set out, my heart is rebellious in a very real sense.
Just like a guy who drives 50 MPH where ever he goes. Doesnt care about anyone. Is he obedient when the speed limit happens to read 50MPH? God says, no he's not.
There of course is a bit of mystery that surrounds it. Keep searching!
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
Only Calvinists can say babies go to heaven, because we believe God can grant mercy to whomever He desires.
Arminians must either invent lies (age of accountability), or accept that babies go to hell because in their system, they MUST make the all important human choice in order to be saved, and of course, a baby can't do that.
skalapunk 3 years ago
I was trying to push in that direction, maybe let them figure it out for themselves. But thanks! Nail on head.
JoelTheCalvinist 3 years ago
Lol oh...well you never made an obvious hint at that :P
skalapunk 3 years ago
hhhhmmmm.....
diuryl 3 years ago