BTW they say 20,000 North Koreans defected to South.
Out of these numbers, lots of them are just opportunity seekers from China who shares settlement money with the broker. The brokers make big money if they bring a North Korean to South Korea. The number of defecters are decreasing, and number of North Korean defectors are VERY VERY SMALL compared to people who migrate for better opportunity in other world.
well. when they have nothing to say they always say.. I am a north korean agent.
I am an American u dumfuck.!
just look at my video. I am a real guy. real American working 6 days a week. 12 hours per day. who is that twekewl? no face no nothing. just hiding criminal trying to make a plot to invade some other country. Evils are always in darkness.
Dear fellow Americans dont be fooled by these evils.! Dont trust any people without faces!
@dongsoola What job do you have that makes you work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day? I can't think of one. Very odd hours you have.
If you are American, why do you talk like a foreigner? The grammar mistakes you make are not like that of a native speaker, and what kind of name is "dongsoola"? I did a quick check of your profile, and there's a lot of Hangul in there. If that's you in the videos, that makes sense. You're Korean, promoting North Korea.
someone say how much North Korea pays me for bullshit?
People should understand that everything what they say about North Korea is about themselves. Who do u think have time and money to make this kind of video?
I myself work 12 hours per day 6 days per week. BTW. and nobody pays me.
All these anti-NK propaganda is not by American people, its by politicians and people who have lots of money.
Escaping North Korea is not for the faint of heart.
Escaping by the South border is suicide, as it's the most militarized area in the world, you'll get caught and killed in no time unless you have contacts within the NK Military.
The only way that nearly 95% of North Korean defectors took is by China, even at that it's a lucky thing to survive long enough to get in a Chinese city and enter in contact with the South Korean Government, the people in this video must have been motivated...
@WarrenAch Actually, it's even more dangerous than that. China doesn't let North Koreans defect to the South; they're treated as "economic migrants," and they're deported back if they're caught. Defectors must escape to either Mongolia, Thailand, or Vietnam. These people have some guts.
@Saberwolf116 That is if you're dumb enough to reveal your identity, but there's a decent South Korean diaspora living in Chinese cities, and getting new identity papers is easy as hell there.
Remember that China cannot deport you back to NK if you go see the SK International Office that is in almost every big city around the globe.
The only way it can go wrong is if you get caught in the border, that's why i said earlier that getting to a Chinese city in one piece is not that easy.
We should all help this cause. 15000 is not reall y very many compared to who's still there suffering. It's so good to see then eat. I like to watch that twice
You may think the VOA is a propaganda machine. Maybe it really is. Of course Al Jazeera, CNN and BBC have plenty of bias as well...
but organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are not "propaganda machines." They have no political bias or interest, receive no corporate or govt. funding and hence have no reason whatsoever to report anything other than the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth"
Amnesty International is an anti-communist organisation. It takes a view of human rights that reflect individual and capitalist values. It is obsessed with the PRC but has very little to say about the victims of US imperialism. And it is simply untrue to say that it doesn't accept funding from governments. The British Government for example funds it through its 'Governance and Transparency Fund' (GTF No. 376).
I find it interesting you equate "individual and capitalist values." If viewing certain individual rights as inalienable somehow conflicts with your view of communism, then i'm very sorry- but there are such a thing as individual RIGHTS that NO collective has the right to take away. These aren't my words, read the Universal declaration of human rights. as for "capitalist values"... economic systems don't have moral values, only monetary values.
Once again, on human rights, as on every other issue that we have discussed, you have a one-eyed view of things. The declaration that you refer to comprises both individual and collective rights. It is no surprise that you emphasise only the individual ones.
Perhaps you are unaware that it also enshrines the right to healthcare for example? A 1997 study estimated that 100,000 US citizens dies each year because of lack of medical care. This is an extraordinary abuse of human rights. Were you even aware of it? Perhaps you were too busy criticising the DPRK?
These are the kind of uncomfortable facts that emerge when one is willing to look beyond propaganda.
You said "economic systems don't have moral values."
I accept Marx's view that the class which is the ruling material force in any epoch, is also the ruling cultural and intellectual force. This doesn't strike me as being particulary controversial.
The North Korean State TV stations are propaganda machines too. The only difference being, in America you can choose to watch VOA or you can watch CNN or FOX, or if you're really deluded you can even choose to read Communist newspapers like the "People's weekly world" in NY. Whereas in North Korea, the "propaganda machine" is the only available source of information. Watching another TV station is a capital offense.
I'm very surprised you cite Noam Chomsky...you're aware of course that he is one of the most eloquent and persistent critics of Stalinism and Soviet imperialism on the modern left, and that his political tendencies are far closer to anarchism than to the repressive statist communism you seem to endorse?
The mainstream, corporate media is not very diverse. But there are a plethora of other, alternative news sources which, while lacking corporate funding and the publicity it brings, nonetheless enjoy complete freedom to broadcast their message. If you aren't familiar with Democracy Now, Link TV, Air America, and even some programs on MSNBC (rachel maddow being one of the most notable) you should really reconsider your view of American media.
Are there any Native English teachers working in that school? If they offered me a monthly salary of 3 million KRW a month to teach English there using the GEPIK curriculum, I would go back to Korea and expose these North Korean defector youths to a black teacher like me. They would look up to me like Sidney Poitier or Barak Obama. I would even teach them about how even black people in history went through the same thing they went through, separation from family.
I hope those kids can survive in a capitalist nation like South Korea. In South Korea and Japan competition is a golden rule. You have to be strong on the labor market. And that is something those young kids are not. I hope for them that they adapt to the life in the south.
South Korea is a democratic nation, unfortunately it is ruled by a strong bourgeoisie who view workers as tool to become rich.
@UDSS It will be easier to survive than in North Korea, South Korea is a developed country, like all developed countries unemployment can be a problem and tough competition.
I'm unsure what kind of welfare measures there are to help the unemployed or homeless but I believe the government does run shelters, if worst came to the worst, even living in a shelter and doing volunteer work would be better than North Korea where should the government make a blunder, starvation becomes a real danger.
Well for example there is differences in vocabulary especially when both Koreans borrow terms from other languages - South Korean would often use the English version while North Korean would use Russian.
Also the accents are different - the South Korean accent is based on the Seoul dialect while the Northern accent is based on Pyongyang's.
They (the Northerners) do sound similar to the native Korean speakers in China.
Getting serious here, I think that the idea that a special school for North Korean defectors is a brilliant idea. It gives these young children a time to understand what a captialist modern state South Korea is and gives them an excellent education preparing them for full intergration into South Korean society. I deeply respect the South Korean government for undertaking this amazingly humanitarian project.
This special school for defectors is a great idea!! They seem to be getting much better prepared to live happy lives in the South, and, yes, hopefully, the North will fall with the end of Kim Jong Il's rule. I also hope they can be reunited with their loved ones in the North under happy circumstances.
This is a good Documentary & Good idea they have a school for them. its stupid the south Koreans don't treat them better, they should.
a school where everyone can relate
to eachother is good. after living in that prison all they need is an Average Job to be Happy the last thing they should worrying about is competitivness & "capitalist companies"
I really feel for these young people who have defected to the South and it is good to know that they are being well cared for at this High School. I can only imagine what trauma they have experienced and wish them the very best for the future.
dongsoola is obviously a communist sympathizer or a north korean agent. what a lame fuck. do you even know any north koreans. i knew several in s. korea. yes, they have jobs as bus boys and dishwashers, but fuck man, they eat 3 square a day and have cell phones and don't have to worry about being dragged to a concentration camp. also, south korea also has universal healthcare coverage... except the equiptment is modern (mris etc) and not from 1960 like in the north.
@chica476 that's bullshit and you know it. koreans living well and n. koreans in the south having cell phones and jobs has nothing to do with US aid. it's because of a capitalist economy fuckwad. there are korean companies that sell awesome cell phones, tvs, etc to the rest of the world. samsung, lg... etc. not to mention the korean pop industry. you are a brainwashed north korean enthusiast. go move to north korea to show solidarity with your commie brothers fool.
Perhaps I should elaborate... The USA has been a supplier of medical aid to South Korea since the later end of the korean war and never ceased... due to in part for a military stronghold in the southern korean peninsula. However, you are correct in saying that a capitalist system allowed for a wider expansion in terms of economic prosperity and prolonged life expectancy.
I hope this helps clearing any muddled understanding and I apologize if I caused any harm in such a quagmire.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
These North Koreans who defected to South Korea lives like homeless in South Korea. ( ony 60% of NK defector in SK is working and their average wage is below minimum )
The truth is that they had their own house, free medical care in North Korea, but they came down with nothing, and SK cant feed them all.
So only way some of these can have a decent living is by doing this kind of political propaganda for u-know-who.~~
so if their lives are better in NK, why risk your life by living illegally in China, then jump barbed wire fences to make it into SK? It doesn't add up.
Unfortunately, many North Koreans do live like bums in South Korea, often due to traumas from living in the north. Plus, ask yourself this, if you came from the north, where you made no decisions for yourself, how would you be able to all of a sudden be able to fend for yourself in the south?
Lastly, out of the 15,000 North Koreans in South Korea, how many have gone back? I don't think I've heard of a single case. Defectors aren't well liked in North Korea..
dongsoola, what country do you know they would provide to homeless to room and board, education, healthcare, give them future, and care about their well being? I am in US and we don't even do that. Many of the homeless people in here they sleep in street and no food to eat because most of shelters don't have enough funds to provide them even their basic needs. Korea is not rich country at all compare to US or many other countries. Korea give their best what they can to help humanity.
The stories of N. Korean defectors living in S. Korea is amazing. They are given the nutrition they need to grow and develop. They are given high quality universal health care that is provided by the S. Korean government. They think they are living in luxury but it's just a typical lifestyle for a S. Korean. I hope the DPRK government gets destroyed, their people need life, liberty, and democracy! South Korea can feed them, it's the DPRK who can't.
This is a wonderful thing, but doesnt it almost seem like the "re-education" of North korea?
I'm not saying this is brain washing, but the underlying affects are the same.
walltowall5 1 month ago
@dongsoola Your English sucks. You're not American. You're hella dumb hahah
ChewingGumAddict 2 months ago
@ChewingGumAddict Which means he's American.
THEendOFJustin 1 month ago in playlist Free North Korea!
oooh it would be cool if my school could visit that school. i go to an american school in south korea, but that would be awesome
Sofiarocks776 3 months ago
BTW they say 20,000 North Koreans defected to South.
Out of these numbers, lots of them are just opportunity seekers from China who shares settlement money with the broker. The brokers make big money if they bring a North Korean to South Korea. The number of defecters are decreasing, and number of North Korean defectors are VERY VERY SMALL compared to people who migrate for better opportunity in other world.
dongsoola 8 months ago
well. when they have nothing to say they always say.. I am a north korean agent.
I am an American u dumfuck.!
just look at my video. I am a real guy. real American working 6 days a week. 12 hours per day. who is that twekewl? no face no nothing. just hiding criminal trying to make a plot to invade some other country. Evils are always in darkness.
Dear fellow Americans dont be fooled by these evils.! Dont trust any people without faces!
dongsoola 8 months ago
@dongsoola What job do you have that makes you work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day? I can't think of one. Very odd hours you have.
If you are American, why do you talk like a foreigner? The grammar mistakes you make are not like that of a native speaker, and what kind of name is "dongsoola"? I did a quick check of your profile, and there's a lot of Hangul in there. If that's you in the videos, that makes sense. You're Korean, promoting North Korea.
Klartank 8 months ago
I also say North Korea is probably most free country in the world.
They probably have no debth.
Well. This one thing is enough to explain why.
dongsoola 8 months ago
someone say how much North Korea pays me for bullshit?
People should understand that everything what they say about North Korea is about themselves. Who do u think have time and money to make this kind of video?
I myself work 12 hours per day 6 days per week. BTW. and nobody pays me.
All these anti-NK propaganda is not by American people, its by politicians and people who have lots of money.
dongsoola 8 months ago
Maybe not the BEST way to introduce them to freedom.
Esoparagon 9 months ago
Escaping North Korea is not for the faint of heart.
Escaping by the South border is suicide, as it's the most militarized area in the world, you'll get caught and killed in no time unless you have contacts within the NK Military.
The only way that nearly 95% of North Korean defectors took is by China, even at that it's a lucky thing to survive long enough to get in a Chinese city and enter in contact with the South Korean Government, the people in this video must have been motivated...
WarrenAch 11 months ago
@WarrenAch Actually, it's even more dangerous than that. China doesn't let North Koreans defect to the South; they're treated as "economic migrants," and they're deported back if they're caught. Defectors must escape to either Mongolia, Thailand, or Vietnam. These people have some guts.
Saberwolf116 10 months ago
@Saberwolf116 That is if you're dumb enough to reveal your identity, but there's a decent South Korean diaspora living in Chinese cities, and getting new identity papers is easy as hell there.
Remember that China cannot deport you back to NK if you go see the SK International Office that is in almost every big city around the globe.
The only way it can go wrong is if you get caught in the border, that's why i said earlier that getting to a Chinese city in one piece is not that easy.
WarrenAch 10 months ago
We should all help this cause. 15000 is not reall y very many compared to who's still there suffering. It's so good to see then eat. I like to watch that twice
1luvhot 1 year ago
well that's good they have a school like that. that must be super hard to adjust
miamivicepastels83 1 year ago
NORTH KOREA = OPPOSITE OF COMMUNISM
OPPOSITE OF COMMUNISM = FASCISM
FASCISM = MILITARY DICATORSHIP
NORTH KOREAS - NOT COMMUNIST BUT SAYS THEY ARE BECAUSE BACK IN THE DAY IF YOU SAID YOU WERE COMMUNIST USSR WOULD SEND YOU A FREE GIFT BASKET
zombieofparty 1 year ago
The VOA is a propaganda machine. Keep that in mind as you try to understand what is going on in Korea.
redword2007 1 year ago
@redword2007
You may think the VOA is a propaganda machine. Maybe it really is. Of course Al Jazeera, CNN and BBC have plenty of bias as well...
but organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are not "propaganda machines." They have no political bias or interest, receive no corporate or govt. funding and hence have no reason whatsoever to report anything other than the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth"
TheTollundWoman 1 year ago
@TheTollundWoman
Amnesty International is an anti-communist organisation. It takes a view of human rights that reflect individual and capitalist values. It is obsessed with the PRC but has very little to say about the victims of US imperialism. And it is simply untrue to say that it doesn't accept funding from governments. The British Government for example funds it through its 'Governance and Transparency Fund' (GTF No. 376).
redword2007 1 year ago
@redword2007
I find it interesting you equate "individual and capitalist values." If viewing certain individual rights as inalienable somehow conflicts with your view of communism, then i'm very sorry- but there are such a thing as individual RIGHTS that NO collective has the right to take away. These aren't my words, read the Universal declaration of human rights. as for "capitalist values"... economic systems don't have moral values, only monetary values.
TheTollundWoman 1 year ago
@TheTollundWoman
Once again, on human rights, as on every other issue that we have discussed, you have a one-eyed view of things. The declaration that you refer to comprises both individual and collective rights. It is no surprise that you emphasise only the individual ones.
redword2007 1 year ago
@TheTollundWoman
Perhaps you are unaware that it also enshrines the right to healthcare for example? A 1997 study estimated that 100,000 US citizens dies each year because of lack of medical care. This is an extraordinary abuse of human rights. Were you even aware of it? Perhaps you were too busy criticising the DPRK?
These are the kind of uncomfortable facts that emerge when one is willing to look beyond propaganda.
redword2007 1 year ago
@TheTollundWoman
You said "economic systems don't have moral values."
I accept Marx's view that the class which is the ruling material force in any epoch, is also the ruling cultural and intellectual force. This doesn't strike me as being particulary controversial.
redword2007 1 year ago
@redword2007
The North Korean State TV stations are propaganda machines too. The only difference being, in America you can choose to watch VOA or you can watch CNN or FOX, or if you're really deluded you can even choose to read Communist newspapers like the "People's weekly world" in NY. Whereas in North Korea, the "propaganda machine" is the only available source of information. Watching another TV station is a capital offense.
TheTollundWoman 1 year ago
@TheTollundWoman
You actually believe that the US media is diverse? Please read 'Manufacturing Consent' by Ed Herman and Noam Chomsky.
redword2007 1 year ago
@redword2007
I'm very surprised you cite Noam Chomsky...you're aware of course that he is one of the most eloquent and persistent critics of Stalinism and Soviet imperialism on the modern left, and that his political tendencies are far closer to anarchism than to the repressive statist communism you seem to endorse?
TheTollundWoman 1 year ago
@redword2007
The mainstream, corporate media is not very diverse. But there are a plethora of other, alternative news sources which, while lacking corporate funding and the publicity it brings, nonetheless enjoy complete freedom to broadcast their message. If you aren't familiar with Democracy Now, Link TV, Air America, and even some programs on MSNBC (rachel maddow being one of the most notable) you should really reconsider your view of American media.
TheTollundWoman 1 year ago
How wonderful.
The people of North Korea deserve to be treated like human beings, not the slaves that their communist state makes them.
volapuk49 1 year ago
Are there any Native English teachers working in that school? If they offered me a monthly salary of 3 million KRW a month to teach English there using the GEPIK curriculum, I would go back to Korea and expose these North Korean defector youths to a black teacher like me. They would look up to me like Sidney Poitier or Barak Obama. I would even teach them about how even black people in history went through the same thing they went through, separation from family.
sheltv100 1 year ago
I hope those kids can survive in a capitalist nation like South Korea. In South Korea and Japan competition is a golden rule. You have to be strong on the labor market. And that is something those young kids are not. I hope for them that they adapt to the life in the south.
South Korea is a democratic nation, unfortunately it is ruled by a strong bourgeoisie who view workers as tool to become rich.
UDSS 1 year ago
@UDSS It will be easier to survive than in North Korea, South Korea is a developed country, like all developed countries unemployment can be a problem and tough competition.
I'm unsure what kind of welfare measures there are to help the unemployed or homeless but I believe the government does run shelters, if worst came to the worst, even living in a shelter and doing volunteer work would be better than North Korea where should the government make a blunder, starvation becomes a real danger.
BVargas78 1 year ago
@horial92
Well for example there is differences in vocabulary especially when both Koreans borrow terms from other languages - South Korean would often use the English version while North Korean would use Russian.
Also the accents are different - the South Korean accent is based on the Seoul dialect while the Northern accent is based on Pyongyang's.
They (the Northerners) do sound similar to the native Korean speakers in China.
NeoFalcon69 1 year ago
Quite sad....it will be interesting when both countries finally unite, and the NKs up in the North find out that their leaders lied to them....LOL.
Bander1 1 year ago
0:38....Park Ji Sung?!?!?!?!?
supatoker420 1 year ago
God Bless South Korea.
chica476 1 year ago
This made my day. :) I'm so glad they have programs set up for the DPRK refugees.
Donavan68 1 year ago
Getting serious here, I think that the idea that a special school for North Korean defectors is a brilliant idea. It gives these young children a time to understand what a captialist modern state South Korea is and gives them an excellent education preparing them for full intergration into South Korean society. I deeply respect the South Korean government for undertaking this amazingly humanitarian project.
ahersi29 1 year ago
WTF! That is a school! Looks more like a mall god dammit! LOL! I live in the west but my high school looks nothing like that!
ahersi29 1 year ago
This special school for defectors is a great idea!! They seem to be getting much better prepared to live happy lives in the South, and, yes, hopefully, the North will fall with the end of Kim Jong Il's rule. I also hope they can be reunited with their loved ones in the North under happy circumstances.
starbugster 1 year ago
This is a good Documentary & Good idea they have a school for them. its stupid the south Koreans don't treat them better, they should.
a school where everyone can relate
to eachother is good. after living in that prison all they need is an Average Job to be Happy the last thing they should worrying about is competitivness & "capitalist companies"
MetalHeart8787 1 year ago
I wish they talked more about this maybe do documentary
yobiworld 2 years ago
Cool, i like the school's intetnions
palexskin 2 years ago 3
I really feel for these young people who have defected to the South and it is good to know that they are being well cared for at this High School. I can only imagine what trauma they have experienced and wish them the very best for the future.
watershipdown2008 2 years ago 2
dongsoola is obviously a communist sympathizer or a north korean agent. what a lame fuck. do you even know any north koreans. i knew several in s. korea. yes, they have jobs as bus boys and dishwashers, but fuck man, they eat 3 square a day and have cell phones and don't have to worry about being dragged to a concentration camp. also, south korea also has universal healthcare coverage... except the equiptment is modern (mris etc) and not from 1960 like in the north.
tewkewl 2 years ago 11
@tewkewl
that's due to USA aid.
chica476 1 year ago
@chica476 that's bullshit and you know it. koreans living well and n. koreans in the south having cell phones and jobs has nothing to do with US aid. it's because of a capitalist economy fuckwad. there are korean companies that sell awesome cell phones, tvs, etc to the rest of the world. samsung, lg... etc. not to mention the korean pop industry. you are a brainwashed north korean enthusiast. go move to north korea to show solidarity with your commie brothers fool.
tewkewl 1 year ago
@tewkewl
Perhaps I should elaborate... The USA has been a supplier of medical aid to South Korea since the later end of the korean war and never ceased... due to in part for a military stronghold in the southern korean peninsula. However, you are correct in saying that a capitalist system allowed for a wider expansion in terms of economic prosperity and prolonged life expectancy.
I hope this helps clearing any muddled understanding and I apologize if I caused any harm in such a quagmire.
chica476 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
These North Koreans who defected to South Korea lives like homeless in South Korea. ( ony 60% of NK defector in SK is working and their average wage is below minimum )
The truth is that they had their own house, free medical care in North Korea, but they came down with nothing, and SK cant feed them all.
So only way some of these can have a decent living is by doing this kind of political propaganda for u-know-who.~~
AND THATS THE TRUTH.
dongsoola 2 years ago
so if their lives are better in NK, why risk your life by living illegally in China, then jump barbed wire fences to make it into SK? It doesn't add up.
jwh30385 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
the reason is that all these medias.
Some SK activists are spreading rumors in NK that SK people are living better.. and send out these capitalism medias.
They are getting false idea. Thats why.
But the number of NK defectors compared to SK is very small.
dongsoola 2 years ago
Unfortunately, many North Koreans do live like bums in South Korea, often due to traumas from living in the north. Plus, ask yourself this, if you came from the north, where you made no decisions for yourself, how would you be able to all of a sudden be able to fend for yourself in the south?
Lastly, out of the 15,000 North Koreans in South Korea, how many have gone back? I don't think I've heard of a single case. Defectors aren't well liked in North Korea..
jwh30385 2 years ago 4
dongsoola, what country do you know they would provide to homeless to room and board, education, healthcare, give them future, and care about their well being? I am in US and we don't even do that. Many of the homeless people in here they sleep in street and no food to eat because most of shelters don't have enough funds to provide them even their basic needs. Korea is not rich country at all compare to US or many other countries. Korea give their best what they can to help humanity.
remotecont888 2 years ago
@remotecont888 Korea is a G20 nation. i agree with most of what you said, but korea is one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
tewkewl 1 year ago
free medical care? haha, it's obvious that you have never lived in communist country
fifekSK 2 years ago
@fifekSK if you're talking about tewkewl's comment, he was referring to SK, not NK.
MunchkinBox 1 year ago
@dongsoola dude, north korea sucks ass, suck it.
m1grand70 1 year ago
@dongsoola YOU ARE FULL OF COMPLETE BULLSHIT!
The stories of N. Korean defectors living in S. Korea is amazing. They are given the nutrition they need to grow and develop. They are given high quality universal health care that is provided by the S. Korean government. They think they are living in luxury but it's just a typical lifestyle for a S. Korean. I hope the DPRK government gets destroyed, their people need life, liberty, and democracy! South Korea can feed them, it's the DPRK who can't.
thedocumentarian 1 year ago
north korea, the govt but not the people, must be demolished
miraeja 2 years ago 2
Down with North Korea.
richdawginthehouse 2 years ago
this is really good for them...
I hope that N.Korea falls apart
AutumnNatae 2 years ago 30
@AutumnNatae No, it's better if it reunites with the South.
freakylocz14 1 year ago
@AutumnNatae agreed
Doteatsurpants 1 year ago
@AutumnNatae It will fall like Koguryeo since half of the kingdom is at North Korea.
6arcsn1sky 11 months ago
@AutumnNatae I believe we'll see USA fall apart before N.Korea ;)
specnaz157 5 months ago
It is good that they have this school for these kids, to help them adjust to new life and to cope with all that has happened to them.
mkandyunafan4 3 years ago