Francis Chan: Are Your Beliefs Biblical? (Crazy Love Chapter 5)

[rustysruger]

Ok

[rustysruger]

Well I googled " Francis Chan's College Calvinist" and came up with some relevant hits. You will get his College web site among the first hits which has a statement of faith which sounds decidedly Calvinistic to me. Don't get me wrong I''m not anti- Francis Chan at all. It's just this video that prompted me to ask the question. Does he think he is totally without all influence except for Holy Scriptures? Spurgeon who was a self avowed Calvinist also sounded very non- Calvinist in many on his s

[weswoodell]

I'm aware of the school, but again, have never heard him say he's a Calvinist and have heard him teach things that seem to go against TULIP - mainly that it's our choice whether we follow Jesus or not. Until I get something a bit more concrete I will not think of him as being in that camp.

[winterwierdo]

@rustysruger Well he has the best intentions, we do hear from the world, even as Christains, most the stuff he says im geussing is backed by Gods word though, because he reads it &hears it, talks, walks, and prays it, even though he is human, like us.

[rustysruger]

@weswoodell. He not very vocal or belligerent about it, like many Calvinist but if you do a little web research I think you will discover he is a Calvinist...

[weswoodell]

@rustysruger Have any links to share? I've never heard him affirm Calvinism, and have heard him teach things several times that don't fit with TULIP.

[rustysruger]

Good stuff Francis. I understand from articles on the web that you are a five point Calvinist and your College teaches Calvinism. So I'll put the same question to you that you put to us...If you sat down with just your Bible nothing else like say Calvin's Institutes or others influences would you still come up with TULIP...Be honest now...

[weswoodell]

@rustysruger Hi Rusty - I don't think he's a Calvinist.

[sprPee]

rape is gods will, read the bible

[kristih921]

Really start listening around 2:25! Awesome!

[KesslersCross]

Here in WV, its all fire and brimstone, tradition, leagallistic judgements...not to much preaching on the actualy scripture. I was once a Pastor here and was excommunicated bacuse I didnt believe in holding revivals to honor my birthday, I didnt believe in preaching doctrines, wouldnt preach about fire and brimstone, wouldnt kick ppl out of the church because they wore shorts, or guys had long hair. Cant see who how God could look at the church as a whole and be remotly happy with it.

[desasterz]

I live in the Northeast of England and the cultures made its way into my chuch. The truth is, if we accept all that nonesense, we cant do Gallatians, we cant do Ephesians and we cant do 1st John. Or 1st and 2nd Peter. We might as well scrap the whole thing. English culture is invented by people who cant love, for people who cant love. None of it makes any sense what so ever, its just bullying.

[katfrmwi]

Jeremiah 16:19 says this: O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: “Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.

[topguncombatmedics]

Well said...All ways test...

[paulgem123]

Interesting. I would agree that tradition trumps truth in a lot of cases.

[desasterz]

@paulgem123 You're telling me! England itself is tradition and truth trumping.

[paulgem123]

@desasterz Have no Idea where you get that.

[TrustinJC]

Good video. But what of other teachings wide spread in the church today? What about the belief that the bible includes "ALL" of God's word? For no one would ever conclude that the bible includes all of God's word if they read the bible void of outside influence. It simply would never happen. In fact the opposite would happen. People would have a thirst and hunger for other books not included in the bible.

Con't

[TrustinJC]

@TrustinJC Pt 2 And what of the teaching that there are no contradictions in the bible? If we had no outside influence when reading the bible would/could we conclude that there are no contradictions? I doubt it very much.

Would we conclude that the canon process was directed and inspired by God and that man did not intervene in or sway the process in anyway? I also doubt that anyone would come to this conclusion.

This is why we must believe what we read rather then read what we believe.

[el87joker2]

@Jmbates1579....hahaha.... You are rediculious..... I mean wow... I am just amazed that someone could really be that dumb. And try and sound like they have a valid point. Haha... I just hope you were just joking around trying to get some attention.

[jmbates5179]

Are your beliefs biblical? Good question. How about are they humane or in-human? In the 1940s some people said it was right for other people to be thrown into ovens. Today we call those people anti-Semite Fascists. Today people like Chan say it is right (righteous) for billions of people to be thrown in the ovens of hell and tortured. 50 years from now will we call Chan and co. anti-human fascists? Why don't we not wait 50 years and tell the truth now.

[coolestmcse]

Psalms 41, read it...

[greatdanechick2]

yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. Trying to get un-indoctrinated myself. (is that even a word?)

Spending more time in the red letters and in Holy Spirit driven prayer is helping.

I love Jesus.

[25151206]

@greatdanechick2 If un-indoctrinated isn't a word, then you've just made it a word! And it's a word we shold all use, hehe...Let's stick to the bible, guys!!!

[juniorspivey]

@greatdanechick2 Its all God's word. There is no 'red letter' in the greek. If you want the whole truth read it all. Remember Jesus himself stated that after He was gone the Holy Spirit was going to lead the Apostles in even more truth.

[styyll1989]

@juniorspivey

The "red letters" is trying to say that it was the actual words or conversation of Jesus. Dont get it wrong

[StreetSmartTruth]

thats exactly what i think .......... cool

[shannon51778]

Francis Chan's crazy love changed my walk with God because I was completely luke warm. God has changed my life and I have a hungry to read his word more then ever. I have a huge question, how in the world do christians come up with Jesus being God from reading the bible? He is the Son of God and sitting at the right hand of his Father but I don't get it?

[molitdude]

@shannon51778 Read John chapter 1.

It will open your eyes.

[juniorspivey]

@shannon51778 John 1:1

[styyll1989]

@shannon51778

Your question got me thinking, indeed Jesus is Son of God but in Matthew 28:18 says "ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" and in Matthew 11:27 says "ALL things have been delivered to ME by MY FATHER, and no one knows the SON except the FATHER. Nor does any one know the FATHER except the SON, and the one to whom the SON wills to reveal HIM".

[preachermanst7]

That is why Jesus said, Be not deceived, for many false prophets will arise in the last days. We should not just read God's Word, but study it for ourselves. Study to show thyself approved of God, rightly dividing the Word of God. Yes, we need preachers, but we need to know what they are preaching is coming from God's Word and not from elsewhere.

[neckmangler]

Venom... if you don't believe there is a God... then you never believed those aforementioned things to begin with.. sorry 

[jmw9509]

What made u change your mind and think there is no God?

[LIGHTRONIX]

There's no way to read the bible word for word free of any perspective or pure in translation. You have to look at verses in context and interpret meaning often. Personal Bible study wasn't invented until the 1400s when the printing press was invented. Not that personal Bible study is bad, but it's not a study guide that has clear bullet points to memorize. It's not a users manual.

[matthewcraigtube]

Simple. Beautiful.

[VENOM3RDUM]

Funny thing is I did just that and I ended up becoming an atheist.

[ralphhearsey]

@VENOM3RDUM you were pbbly an athiest in the first place - parable of the tares Matthew 13 - you cannot undo your christianity...

[VENOM3RDUM]

@ralphhearsey No, actually. Growing up, I went to church form time to time and had a general affinity towards Christianity because that was the major influencing religion I was around. During my service as a Marine and after, I became very serious about my religion. I eventually got baptized and attended church activities 4 to 5 times a week, studied my bible diligently, regularly shared with others (helping some get baptized), and revolved my whole life around my Christianity. I was very devout

[VENOM3RDUM]

@ralphhearsey My sincerity was unparalleled. But the reason I think I became an atheist is because my sincerity was in a quest for truth. When I realized that Christianity was not truth, I left. I still maintain that there are some truths in principal contained in the bible, but I know that those truths can be found, and often came from elsewhere.

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM Hi, I respect your point of view. Would you say you left because of the people who call themselves christians or because you read and understood the bible then decided it wasn't for you? Did you seek a relationship with God or were you trying to be a 'good' person?

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri I became a Christian because I genuinely sought a "relationship with god." I left because in my efforts to reach that goal I came to understand the bible pretty well; I wen from having never picked it up b4 in my life to knowing it on a somewhat scholarly level. I started getting a good grasp on mental gymnastics it took to justify to myself believing in the veracity of the things it contained. It was never about the people for me.

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM Then if you really covered your bases, goodluck to you. Still, God loves you! May I ask what you came to understand?

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri I came to understand that Christianity came about as conglomeration of older mythologies from other societies in which the Hebrews came in contact. The doctrine contains many contradictions and it is useless as a tool for explaining things in the world, which is how/why most mythologies are created. From a common sense view it seems ridiculous to believe an omnipotent and omniscient being would have a creation in such state of affairs for the reasons outlined in scripture. etc...

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM Hey, That's kind of out there. Do you have examples?

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri Well there's plenty of information floating around cyber space about those things:

watch?v=ijtipfO9vdU

watch?v=hcPiUGGd25s

watch?v=n1A9vrsw6Hw

watch?v=yRR5grRt2fI

If you are really interested in truth, then you must examine the information in opposition to your current position.

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri If asking about doctrinal/scriptural contradictions, you can do a search for bible contradictions as well

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM I know there are 'contradictions' and I have examined as many argumuents againsy God that I know of. What I'd like to know was what you believed. There are arguements against athetism same as there are arguments for it.

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri Do mean what I believed when I was a Christian?

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM Yes and now too

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri I believed the christian god was the one true, living god; that the bible was his inerrant word; that Jesus Christ was his son and the incarnation of his divinity, the propitiation of my sins and the sins of the world; that my duty was to spread the message and help save the lost while being an example if saint-hood. Now I understand that all to be nonsense and believe there is no god.

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM Well, you have a right to your opinion.As long as you've been careful with your decisions all I have to say is good luck :)

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri good luck?

[OmoItsekiri]

@VENOM3RDUM Yes, with everything :)

[VENOM3RDUM]

@OmoItsekiri Thanks, same to you.

[3nails1salvation]

I love all the comments, why, because now your thinking! Read it yourself and let the Holy Spirit be your interpreter. 1 peter 1:20- The Bible is of NO private interpretation.

[HonestRat]

Every Bible college should show this to Freshman and let God handle the outcome.

[jkirika]

Very true. We need to be Bereans. The word will judge us not the preacher's message

[aimezmoi13]

So true! We must back everything up with Scriptures, including our faith and the foundation of our theology. God's Word is the Final Word.

[jhweh2007]

thank you for you taking the time out and opening a dialog with jws, i am un ex jw that's on fire for CHRIST.

[janeym]

@jhweh2007 yay! that's great to hear!!

[rustysruger]

This sounds great... Now I can forget all that non-sense John Calvin put fourth...and just read the Bible...

How did the Holy Spirit ever get along with John Calvin...LOL

[paleofwater]

I nearly got kicked out of my leadership position at church for asking these same questions!

[weswoodell]

@paleofwater If truth is really truth, then it will stand up to the hardest questions. I wouldn't feel comfortable at a church that was afraid of questions.

[cammicammy88]

@weswoodell - I agree churches need to make sure that they are preaching salvation based on what the bible says and not on church tradition. The bible is clear in Acts 2: 38 that we need to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins.

[LIGHTRONIX]

@paleofwater if you really want to piss off your church read Pagan Christianity and see how many of our practices are not from the bible.

[devmanification]

@paleofwater You almost got kicked out of your position b/c you questioned things biblically?

[AcaiBunch]

Chan may not have meant his books to become devotionals, although I think he did, but they are being used as such in my church. And frankly, in place of actual study of God's Word.

I find that most people would rather read a book "about" the Bible rather than the actual Bible. If Preachers want to help people avoid that....They should not write the books.

[TK3SOJ]

@AcaiBunch

have you read his books? i am half way through one (i feel like i need to reread it because i am a bad reader). i think the problem you have is a personal one that would be helped if you read more.. i understand that some people think that Christians should only read the bible and thats it. i personally think that some things Francis says are controversial - the jeans thing. my church would never alow some preacher come in wearing jeans and a short sleeve on a Sunday. i like his book

[AcaiBunch]

@TK3SOJ Does it really make any sense to you that a Preacher who encourages his readers/fans/congregation to read just the Scriptures to write two extra-biblical books? To me it seems to be counterproductive.

I do not have a problem with extra-biblical books, there are a lot of great preachers/writers out there that can give us wonderful incites into scripture. However, there are a lot out there.... Like I said. If they want to help people read more of the Bible they should stop writing books.

[tgoyer]

@AcaiBunch The difference is that Francis Chan doesn't consider nor market his books as Gospel. He markets them as biblical exposition. He has said over and over that, if what he thinks is contrary to the Bible, then the Bible wins hands down every time, regardless of his thoughts are on the matter.

[AcaiBunch]

@tgoyer Clearly you are not actually reading what I am saying.

[simplytruth100]

Sijmply writing a book does not mean he is contradicting his message. Chan never meant for his books to be used as devotionals, or in place of, or in addition to Scripture. Like so many Christian-authored books tend to be. His central message is always about getting back to basic truths of the Bible, and truly following Christ, not American culture.

[speedbones]

You could prolly come to that conclusion if you read their false translation. Stay in the KJV folks.

[AcaiBunch]

I find this interesting coming from a man who wrote TWO extra-Biblical books. But it's very true. How many people that call themselves believers actually study the actual Word of God anymore? How many Bereans are there in the Church?

[weswoodell]

@AcaiBunch Do you also think there's something wrong with someone preaching a sermon in which they expound on what they think the Scriptures mean?

It seems to me if you're going to criticize a preacher who writes his sermons down for popular consumption, you'd also have to not listen to preachers who expound on the word verbally in order to remain consistent.

[AcaiBunch]

@weswoodell

When a Pastor takes a portion of Scripture and helps his congregation understand meaning and application it's not the same thing. Mostly because it's personal. Chan's books were written for the nameless faceless masses. He is not able to teach, or counsel, it's just "thrown out there", for lack of a better term.

[devmanification]

@weswoodell Here is the deal. There is nothing wrong with stating your opinion on scripture b/c that's part of the learning process. It's a way to test everything (1 Thess 5:21). But if it stops at the opinion, that's where it gets dangerous. A preacher's job is to preach the word in context so people will know what it ACTUALLY MEANS. But stopping at opinions has caused false doctrine, legalism, colts, twisted interpretations of the bible and rules that don't belong in everybody's lives.

[TheCHURCHinDROUIN]

@AcaiBunch I've read Crazy Love, in it he tells you to put down his book and read ALL FOUR Gospels. Spend time in prayer, etc.

Ironically a lage part of Crazy love, is to say, "Put down the book, pick up the Word."

God bless.

[AcaiBunch]

@TheCHURCHinDROUIN That is rather comical don't you think? 

[TheCHURCHinDROUIN]

@AcaiBunch I don't know if comical, is the write word... ironic maybe? I do see your point and it is valid. But if you are trying to reach a bunch of people who have books other than the bible in their hands, what do you do? You can't just give them the bible, they'll put it on the shelf and pick up their Systematic Theology, etc. You put a book in their hands that says... "Psst, read the bible."

God bless.

[AcaiBunch]

@TheCHURCHinDROUIN So you think we need new tactics to get people to read the Word of God?

[TheCHURCHinDROUIN]

@AcaiBunch I think what we need, is hell-fire breathing, holiness preachers of the Gosepl. The Western Church (Australia, US, UK, etc.) is Gospel illiterate. First John destroys 90% of the "Theology" being taught from the pulpits, preachers cherry picking verses, and people cherry picking preachers. We call ourselves blessed, whilst our brothers in Africa and Asia are being martyred, we are Laodicia, and God is poised to spue us from His mouth. We don't need tactics, we need Salvation. God bless

[droptozro]

@TheCHURCHinDROUIN

AMEN!

I love 1st John! Favorite Book!...though I like them all lol

[mastercheef12345]

@AcaiBunch uhh im a new christian so forgive my ignorance. But what is a berean and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[AcaiBunch]

@mastercheef12345 Acts 17:11

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

God bless you in your new found faith.

[peaceintruth]

Great video! Thanks for sharing these wise words about testing what we are told with scripture. The Bible should be our authority above all else along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It takes alot of work but it is worth it. As Paul said, "For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1.