MTH Butchers the Bible 4: Did Elijah go to Heaven?

[shabido1]

'Coming to christ', or any other belief on your own doesn't make it factual, or even probable in any way. Also, you didn't come to that belief on your own. Few things that people raised in any sort of social environment believe are 100% self concocted. We are influenced by our surroundings in more ways than we often recognize. I don't believe all that I do about tornados just because of myself. However, I can test those beliefs in reality, where you cannot.

[THEMON1514]

Diet, exercise,love,hope,PEACE BETWEEN THE HUMAN RACE BECAUSE WE ARE ALL WE HAVE FOR SURE.IF what you believe and religion was concrete there wouldnt be no need for police hospitals and all the other protection agency that we have and the disagreement that we are having.for 10,000years these spiritual beings that we fight over still havent shown themselves to us to stop the fighting.peace only same to come when men work together without sacrificing one for another let us all win in life not aftr

[THEMON1514]

The truth is I dont have a problem with what you believe its how you put everybody elses beliefs/religion down and say that yours is the right one when the real truth is they all come from the same pot.IF your religion is working for you,its ok to tell people about it but not in a way that make yours out to be some fact that can be proven by everyone that tries it.for longevity diet and excersice works 95%of the time.Religion and beliefs work 20% and thats me being generous.so spread that messag

[THEMON1514]

zeitgeist /time spirit is a tool that helps because it does open peoples heart and mind to the truth.Your bibles/religions open the door way to all these questions because if they were thru ,you would not have to defend them.The fact that your sitting there enjoying all the benefits of science because men started to realize that there beliefs wasnt getting them no where but empty promises and failed prophecy.the first bible you ever read was a king james version of many versions look it up

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 "Your bibles/religions open the door way to all these questions because if they were thru ,you would not have to defend them." Actually - that isn't true. Zeitgeist (the movie) made some very false claims and some huge stretches - and anytime a lie is told about anything - the only thing to do is defend the truth. If I were to state you were a devout Catholic, would you let it stand or defend yourself? If you defend yourself that doesn't mean you ARE Catholic - does it?

[shabido1]

@christoferL I couldn't care less if someone believes trees don't exist, or the sky is purple. I don't even care if I tell them I'm an atheist and they believe that means I race RC cars. If someone is so detached from reality that they can't comprehend simple truths, than it doesn't really bother me. I would feel sorry for them, and would want to help them if I could, but it wouldn't hurt my pride, hopes, or desires one bit.

[TylerOmega]

It's so obvious that these are just cultural fables. It amazes me that people think this stuff really happened. That's the power of brainwashing for you.

[christoferL]

@TylerOmega I'd agree with you if not for the fact that I came to Christ without church or religion... maybe I brainwashed myself? Yes, I was influenced by the Bible and commentaries of a few select scholars - but it was hardly brainwashing. No waterboards here.

[THEMON1514]

This was written by a friend of mine,so i am just sharing it with you guys. In order to control us, we must be taught that we ARE NOT divine and we require the services of 3rd party brokers. It is also important to have us preoccupied with pinnacles instead of overstanding the ENTIRETY (whole/all). That way we are always in a state of yearning and of lacking and do not ever realize what we do have but instead focus on what we have been instilled with wanting.

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 it makes sense from an atheist perspective, but as for control - I'd say the Christian religion (Catholic Church) lost that a long time ago.

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL I must say I admirer your dedication to your belief.I am not an atheist. I was brought up in a christian home but I always question the bible and so did everbody else. IT was obivious even as a child that the stories didnt add up.but as an adult I made my own decision to stop believing the stories because they are nothing more than another cinderella,hercules,zeus,egypt­ian,canaan,roman,,jack &the bean stoke fairy tales.they never prove themself to be real.belief doesnt make it real

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 Forgive my presumption - I thought you were atheist. With that said - I understand exactly what you're saying - and would likely feel as you do if I didn't see the power of the Son of God first hand in my life and the lives of so many others... I know how life was before Christ - and now - with Christ - and I live knowing the difference. No one, not Buddha or Muhammad or Krishna or Santa - not even in my own name - did things happen like they do when I live in His name.

[THEMON1514]

EVERYBODY THE BIBLE / NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK AND thats THE REASON WHY IT IS SO COFUSING. MANY OF THE STORIES ARE BASIS ON GREEK MYTHOLOGY, LIKE THE Odyssey written by the greek poet Homer. Thats where they get that heaven/paradise from, just look it up.

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 yeah - those connections to mythology which you are clinging to aren't very solid in my opinion.

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL but they are !!!! Look it up, do your research. This is a starting point for you egyptians, greek, romans and the babalonians/sumer. The cross of jesus is an egyptian anhk without the loop at the top it even resembles the swastika. And in case you forgot remember the bible tells us clearly that moses was brought up in egypt. OH yeah so was joseph, jesus parents took him there after his birth to hide him . So why if jesus is gods only begotten son why is he hiding out in egypt ?

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 "but they are !!!! Look it up, do your research" been there done that... "The cross of jesus is an egyptian anhk without the loop at the top it even resembles the swastika." it also resembles an addition symbol - maybe God is a math fan? Your logic is warped - as the cross was a Roman instrument of death - not a Jewish tool... " why is he hiding out in egypt ?" To get him out of King Herod's line of fire... read the story - its all there.

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL Remember that the Egyptians are much older than the romans. Also its a known fact that all the cultures long before us copied each other gods and rename them. Oh yeah they still do it today.

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 "all the cultures long before us copied each other gods and rename them." and you think thats what happened with Jesus?

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL the answer to your question is yes!! The story is the same all over the middle east and the world. Even cleopatra son was name the son of god . Guess what cleopatra even lived in Egypt and the claim about jesus birth was couple hundred years or earlier before her son little ceasar, google it . That is just one culture we are talking about . In order for your belief to stand you have to deny all the facts about other cultures with the same stories.Thats ok ,but acknowlege the truth

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 ahhh another Zeitgeist victim... believe what you will.

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL Your logic is flawed . You should read it from a logical point of view.IF he is god/god son why is he hiding from and earthly king in a so call pagan country? Now honestly you know that don't make any sense at all . Remember that is the place he supposely freed Israel from bondage

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 Few things here... 1) Jesus was safely sent to Egypt to avoid execution, likely because Herod's power couldn't reach him there. What would you rather? God sent a battalion of angels to watch over Him in Israel? Men are always wanting flashy exhibitions of power when they aren't necessary. 2) Yep, Israel was freed from slavery under Egypt... so what? Its completely unrelated.

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL You just agreed with what i am saying in a round about way. Your God was afraid of herods power. If your god design the universe I am sure there must of been many ways to send help without being flashy. I you keep deny the fact that if he send him to egypt for protection that sounds or looks like the egyptian power or Gods is greater than the god of israel. Oh yeah notice the name IS.RA.EL. Sounds egyptian ,right

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL They are solid, because they have all been recorded for us to see and read. Remember most of bibilical Archaeology only got start because of the bible . But they could never prove much of what was said and even most of what they found has to do with other cultures

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 call it as you see it - and I will continue to call it as I see it... thats the beauty of America, isn't it?

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL YEAH you right, but its not as i see it these are the facts that have been written down and substantiated and what hasn,t been written down its common sense. The stories are flawed big time even as a kid most we all figured this out but your parents convince us/you other wise.

[bill4long]

John 3:13 ἀναβαίνω is in the middle voice in Koine Greek. English does not have a middle voice as Greek does, and so the translations can be tricky. A more precise, albeit more clunky, rendering is, "no man has CAUSED FOR HIMSELF to be ascended up to heaven." There is no contradiction with 2 Kings 2 since Elijah didn't ascend on his own power. Rather he was taken up by another power.

[christoferL]

@bill4long I didn't realize that - thanks for the info

[anzwertree]

It's not so much the blunders of the Bible that bother me. You can find inconsistencies in pretty much any book. The real reason behind my leaving Christianity was an inability ro reconcile my motivations. Why was I worshipping God? Was I just afraid of punishment? Did I merely want some great reward? God knows everything. Not like I could hide anything from him, what were my motivations? I never could answer this. Eventually, I realized I had no reason to believe the Bible anymore.

[christoferL]

@anzwertree I hear ya - I left the church for that reason - but Jesus is part of my life. I know it sounds insane but I am being guided by the Lord and its amazing how its all worked out in my world. I gain a wealth of wisdom through the Bible, but it pails without the direction of the Holy Spirit. What the HS teaches through the Bible is often vastly different then what the churches through it. With God its an experience - with church, an exercise... just ask Him...

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL STop cutting and pasting the bible to make it say what you want it to say . This is the evidence that all this/bible is written by men . That is why we have men trying to defend it!!! If it was written by an all powerful god is he not big or great enough to defend his work and self

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 God doesn't have to defend the Bible against misconceptions and false assertions of men... in the end - all things will be clear.

[THEMON1514]

@christoferL Yes eventually the world will come to an end we don't need the bible to tell us that . IN Fact men can end the world when ever they feel like doing it because we are more powerful than your god of the bible.. How you ask , the atom bombs.they are like mini suns on earth so the fact that men can mimic your god and prove it tells me that your god must be a myth.think about it jesus left you with know evidence not even a chair and he was a carpenter you say!!!

[christoferL]

@THEMON1514 yeah - cause God made 'mini-suns' - are our mini-suns still burning? Man has always been able to mimic God to an extent - but our science still can't explain how He made it all... any 'chair' Jesus might've made would have long since rotted away, no? I mean how much wood work from the 1st century AD survives to this day? Get real man.

[Samura1gamer]

christoferL congratulations for ur epic failure! so heavens means sky and "elijah went up into the sky.We dont know where he ended up..." Wow, i just hope the poor guy had a parachute because if a whirlwind lifts up u never know where u're gonna end up

[DrSpooglemon]

So he could fly? Amazing...

[CajunFireman225]

Epic Failure

[bvwatcher]

Fail.

[YouAreIsrael]

I don't think it's helpful to try to explain the Bible using Talmudic beliefs. There aren't "compartments" in Sheol for sheol is simply synonymous with the grave. Elijah couldn't have gone to the grave for Elijah appeared with Moshe on the Mount of Transfiguration in their glorified bodies.

This is real simple. None of those that ascended to heaven were descended from heaven first. Only Christ was. Elijah, Moshes and Enoch were all born and were not in heaven before their births.

[guendoloena1]

that was a lame explanation, the bible keeps getting dumber

[mikeslant]

Good stuff, I tried telling ProfMTH some of these same things. Unfortunately, the heart of the fool, there is no God

[humanistheart]

Funny he'd reference jewish interpretation. If christians thought jewish interpretation mattered they'd accept that jesus didn't fullfill the messianic prophicies.

Lol, New covenant! hahaha

[aZrevolution]

Also, if you want to argue with expert translators; fine. But I have a deal for you. If you want to say that shamayim means heavens when you want it to, I would also like to say that elohim means Gods in the Bible in every instance. Obviously it is a translation mistake to say it denotes one God, since it literally means "Gods". Would you be comfortable with conceding that?

Also, in Strong's Bible Dictionary there is not one definition of shamayim which denotes a paradise similar to heaven.

[aZrevolution]

Surely, if a lower heaven, similar to paradise, existed; it would be defined as such in his dictionary.

[christoferL]

He discusses this in Luke 16 as well -

[christoferL]

Actually - this happened before He came back from the dead - and Jesus confirmed He had not returned to the Father (Heaven) when speaking to Mary Magdelin in the garden...

[christoferL]

strong's doesn't cover the entire Jewish religion unfortunately.

[aZrevolution]

We can go in this circular argument forever, but it seems that you need to use something that isn't in scripture to bolster your argument, namely that there is some invisible paradise which, as Prof MTH noted, is not in the Bible at all.

[christoferL]

Prof is wrong - it IS in the Bible...lol

[aZrevolution]

Not to mention that you are simply dodging the fact that no such paradise before heaven is mentioned at all in the Bible. If there is a justification for this, it is nowhere in the Bible itself. Again, to any objective reader, it is silly that Elijah simply be taken up to space or the atmosphere. Did God also give him the ability to fly while he was at it?

[christoferL]

aZ - Jesus told the Criminal they would be in Paradise... in the Bible. Find out what paradise was to the Jews and you might at least see where I am coming from.

[aZrevolution]

Interesting ChristoferL, because Jesus said they would be with him in paradise. And if paradise denotes a lower heaven, than this means that Christ did not go to the higher heaven.

My point remains though, it is never explicitly stated in the Bible that there is a lower heaven which is still paradise.

[aZrevolution]

christoferL, do you really expect us to believe that God rewarded his faithful servant by making a show of a flaming chariot; only to drop him off into the atmosphere or the galaxy somewhere? Not to mention that the majority of time the atmosphere or the solar system is referred to the word "heavens" (plural) is used. Here, it is clear that Elijah was taken to the abode of God.

I respect your views, but I do wonder at times how much even apologists believe this explanation of multiple heavens.

[christoferL]

aZ - in all honesty - if you aren't a believer I don't expect you to believe any of it! :)

[aZrevolution]

I used to be a believer much like Prof MTH, I understand your point; and I also believe it is a weak one. I have accepted apologist explanations before...if they make sense. This one, I believe you must concede, does not.

Can you explain why in nearly every other verse referring to heaven as a physical realm(space or atmosphere) it is used in the plural and here it is not? And how, again, does it make sense for God to reward his prophet by dropping him off in the empty void of space?

Thanks

[aZrevolution]

(I would also like to say that I believe that there is not a single instance besides this verse in which Heaven, according to you, refers to the atmosphere or space. Where you look in the creation story and elsewhere, it seems to be plural when referring to the realm of space and such)

[christoferL]

shamayim is actually translated in the KJV as 'air' 21 times and of the 398 times it is heaven - they often refer to atmosphere or space... Gen 1:1, Duet 4:11, Neh 9:23, Is 44:24 - and so on...

[christoferL]

aZ -Can you explain why in nearly every other verse referring to heaven as a physical realm(space or atmosphere) it is used in the plural and here it is not? - sure... translations are flawed. They also translated Sheol, Hades, and Ghehena all as Hell... the verse says it took him into the skies as I understand it - it doesn't say it left him there. I believe he was delivered to paradise.

[aZrevolution]

Isaiah 66:1, Deuteronomy 26:15, Matthew 5:12, Matthew 6:20, Matthew 18:10, Mark 16:19, Luke 15:7, Acts 7:49, Revelations 21:2 all refer to the singular heaven. Isaiah 42:5, Deuteronomy 11:17, Deuteronomy 28:12, Psalms 19: 4-6, Jeremiah 8:2, Isaiah 45:12, Zecheriah 12:1, Genesis 1:1, Genesis 2:1, and Genesis 2:4 all use the plural heavens to describe the atmosphere and such. The reason it is translated as such is because the context was understood.

[christoferL]

az - ummm - you do realize the Greek New Testament isn't the same language as the Hebrew Old Testament, right?

[cldstrcrft]

It's so nice of you to reinterpret the Bible for God. It's a shame that he couldn't have been bothered to write clearly.

[christoferL]

Its not about re-interpreting anything - its about being honest about what was meant vs twisting things to force them to be something new...

[cldstrcrft]

How do you know what was meant?

The Bible doesn't say that God took Elijah into the sky. Nor does it say that God took Elijah into a nice place that was like heaven. It says that God took Elijah into heaven.

But you know more Hebrew than those translated the Bible, so we are to accept that the Hebrew text literally means "sky."

[christoferL]

Actually - the word MTH is insisting means heaven also means sky - and it is a fact that the Jews believe in Sheol which contains Paradise... there are translations that read 'heavens' - such as Young's Literal Translation - so its not something I imagined.

[cldstrcrft]

And yet, most translation say that Elijah ascended into heaven. There is a reason it is translated as "heaven"--most of the Bible depicts God and the angels as residing in the sky (or "heavens"). Clearly Elijah was not taken up into the clouds and left there. For all practical purposes, "heavens" is synonymous with "heaven," as that is where God resides.

So are you saying that Elijah ascended into the sky, or that he ascended into Paradise, or both?

[christoferL]

I am saying all the writers knew was Elijah went into the sky - Jewish afterlife beliefs would then place him in Paradise... not the place we (Christians) would call heaven.

[cldstrcrft]

Where does the Bible explain the difference between Paradise and heaven?

[christoferL]

I don't believe it does. To understand the difference you have to understand the beliefs of Judaism. Of course - this will be a foothold for an excuse - but as a professor who formerly sought after ordination, you would think he would know about this - or at the very least - verify or refute it when an object is raised on these grounds.

[cldstrcrft]

If the Bible doesn't specify a difference between Paradise and heaven, then there is no difference. The Jewish people might believe in a paradise (which is distinct from heaven), but without Biblical support, you cannot assert that such a thing exists.

Furthermore, there is no indication that Jesus is referring to "heaven" as a place that is distinct from the "heaven" Elijah ascended into.

[christoferL]

cld - thats bullcrap, quite frankly.

[cldstrcrft]

Uh huh...

So the Bible says that a whirlwind swept Elijah up to "heaven." You claim that "heaven" should have been "heavens" or "sky," and that Elijah was actually taken to the Jewish paradise, which is different from the Christian Heaven.

Is that about right?

[christoferL]

Thats exactly right.

[cldstrcrft]

1. How do you know that Jesus wasn't referring to the same "heaven" that Elijah was taken to?

2. Where in the Bible does it say that there is a "heaven" which is distinct from the Jewish paradise?

[ProfMTH]

Cldstrcrft- "You claim that 'heaven' should have been 'heavens' or 'sky' and that Elijah was actually taken to the Jewish paradise, which is different from the Christian Heaven."

ChristoferL- "That's exactly right."

And, of course, that is *not* what the Bible says, but why should that matter, right, ChristoferL? :-)

[christoferL]

MTH - that really depends on the translation one chooses to read

[ProfMTH]

Which translation has Elijah being taken into the sky and then subsequently transported to a "paradise" located (presumably) somewhere other than the sky?

[christoferL]

Ahhh - none tell of paradise - that comes from actually researching what the Jews believed concerning the afterlife... the 'heavens' is found in Young's Literal and the Darby translations.

[ProfMTH]

And, of course, not all of the Jews believed the business about "paradise." But I'll get to all that when I do my response series. The important thing is that, as you've conceded, the story says nothing about Elijah being carted off to some paradise outside of heaven. Once again, Christofer, one can add anything one likes to a story to make it work the way one wants it to work -- as you've done here -- but that is really nothing more than telling a story different from the original. The...

[ProfMTH]

...fact that you and so many of your coreligionists feel the need to tell a different story than the ones that actually appear in the biblical texts *AND* that these alternative stories are many, various, and often contradict one another, really just makes my case about the Bible for me. So, thanks.

[christoferL]

MTH - "not all of the Jews believed the business about "paradise." true - there were two basic divisions in their camp - (and splinters from those two as well)... The problem with the way you approach the Bible is the same with the way I would approach studying evolution... it isn't really your thing - you aren't a believer - you don't seek answers to apparent difficulties - you just run with them when there are perfectly good and honest explanations... Can't wait to see your responses.

[ProfMTH]

Christofer, I spent the bulk of my life as a believer. I know what the "answers to apparent difficulties" are, and I know when they work and I know when they don't. By the way, telling an alternative version of a story is not an "answer to apparent difficulties." It's more like trying to sweep something under a rug or tell peoople to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[christoferL]

MTH - "I spent the bulk of my life as a believer." I would love to explore what that means exactly.

"telling an alternative version of a story is not an "answer to apparent difficulties." I disagree with your term - alternative story - particularly when you use misleading tactics to draw your conclusions.

[ProfMTH]

Me- "telling an alternative version of a story is not an 'answer to apparent difficulties'"

ChristoferL- "I disagree with your term."

You've conceded that the story you tell here, i.e., that Elijah was taken up into the sky and then transported to "paradise" located somewhere other than the sky, is not in the Bible. Since that story is not the story in the Bible, how is it not an alternative story?

[christoferL]

MTH - I see where u are coming from but the reason I wouldn't call it alternative is because in light of the fact that I consider Jesus the first authority over all including the words of the Old Testament. When looked at in that light... Jesus said 1) No man (Elijah) has gone to heaven 2) Jesus mentioned paradise by name & told of Sheol in Lk 16 - put the 2 together then view 2 Kgs 2 & suddenly it makes sense. Alternative? to me - only if u don't understand Jesus. No offense intended.

[ProfMTH]

No doubt you can see how you're imposing a Christian perspective on the story of Elijah's being taken to heaven. You're basically saying Elijah couldn't have gone to heaven because of what Jesus is purported to have said. The story as told in 2 Kings makes sense without this being imposed on it. The Christian perspective doesn't make sense of the story. Rather, this imposed Christian perspective aims to dispense with the discrepancy between 2 Kings & the 4th gospel.

The other thing...

[ProfMTH]

...that merits mention is that yours is but one of a number of different Christian perspectives on this story. Is the Christian god not able to get all of his devotees on the same page as to the meaning of the texts he purportedly inspired?

[christoferL]

MTH - well - getting everyone on the same page is difficult with any group of people.

[ProfMTH]

"getting everyone on the same page is difficult with any group of people"

Is anything too difficult for Yahweh? (Genesis 18:14)

[christoferL]

MTH - of course I am - for me it has to go through what Jesus taught...

[killforce787878]

Brother what u r doing is noble but u r refuting what the "Lord" is. He is the WORD. John chp 1 verse 1-4. So when he told the thief"today you will be with me in paradise"he meant it. What u tell others about Christ will be repeated at judgement. I tell u this not because I want to be a jerk but because u r a brother and I care.

[christoferL]

Heaven is not Paradise - they are conclusively two different places.

[killforce787878]

Dude you are way off. Elijah died here on earth. In fAct he outlived elisha his servant and predecessor. Check out 2chronicles chp21 verse 12.and as for that nonsense about "Lord Jesus". You r way off. He went to heaven brother.

[christoferL]

kill - where do you find the death of Elijah here on earth? And what does 2 Chronicles 21:12 have to do with anything? And finally - Jesus said what He said and it makes sense when you understand where paradise was - "He went to heaven brother." Who went to heaven? Jesus ultimately went there - but are u talking about Elijah here - or Jesus - who went to heaven AFTER He rose from the dead?

[squishy121888]

Hebrew theology fail. Hebrew language fail. Ancient Christian theology fail. Greek language fail.

[christoferL]

aquishy - someday you'll know - I just hope you aren't eternally pwned.

[squishy121888]

Man, if by some fluke your deity exists and I die and meet him, feel bad for your god. He'll be living a prison nightmare before I'm done using him.

[GodUsesAMan]

/Dr. Evil voice..."riiiiight".

[christoferL]

squishy - Is that a challenge?

[generosos87]

@squishy121888

there is no fail for the greek part, but he seems to misunderstand the concept of sheol

you see sheol is not separated into a place for the good and the evil, it is separated for those to be purified (painfully of course) and those to be punished. those who were successfully purified went to olam haba, "the world to come", which many theorize to be Paradise.

there would be no reason for jesus to be purified. Sheol and Paradise are not synonymous.

[squishy121888]

I was refuting the Greek on the grounds of language. I can't seem to find my comment, though, so my memory is not jogging properly.

Ah! I was saying that because he equated Hades to Hell.

[generosos87]

@squishy121888

hades referred to the underworld, the place where all the dead went.

hell is an entirely different story.

i thought you were saying fail because he equated hades to sheol, which was accurate in the sense that sheol was seen as where all wicked souls went upon death, and in greek times no soul was seen as completely pure and just

[squishy121888]

Ah. Okay. At one point I was a practicing Hellenistic Pagan, so "Hades=Hell," always irks me. I mean, if they want to bring Eleusyian Mysteries into it, then they can freely claim "Tartarus=Hell," as that's a far more fitting comparison.

[generosos87]

continuing, if the ancient hebrews wanted to say that elijah went to sheol, they would have used sheol, like they did many many many times in the scripture, mainly in psalms. your argument is similar to an argument ive heard, saying that elohim, the plural form of el (el is a singular god), is only not plural when referring to the true god of israel. gimme a break, if they wanted to refer to a singular god, they wouldve used yahweh or el, they werent stupid.

[squishy121888]

Man, I have never seen that one before. I'll never know what makes Modern American Christians think they understand Hebrew's contexts just because they took a week [Or other similarly small amount of time] long course on it.

[DudeImStoned]

Woo dude, big J man up in heaven yall :P Jesus is the shiznit yo :)

[Femigaytheist]

THE BIBLE IS PERFECT AND INERRANT!

unless it isn't then you say things like "Is that REALLY what you consider a contradiction? Descriptions of how/where a man died? LoL"

If you claim that the bible is inerrant, but then gloss over the points in which it has ERRORS, then you're intellectually dishonest and deluded.

[christoferL]

Femi - "If you claim that the bible is inerrant, but then gloss over the points in which it has ERRORS, then you're intellectually dishonest and deluded." - or you are (Holy) spiritually superior and able to understand what the Bible really is.

[Femigaytheist]

Yes. Just like you're able to understand the Homer's Odyssey is just a myth. The only reason to believe that the Bible is holy is that the bible says it is. I don't expect you to seriously consider that idea though, because rather than critically thinking about these issues, you just put your fingers in your ears and a)make stuff up or b)spout prepackaged sourceless nonsense.

[Femigaytheist]

(cont) which you are allowed to do...but saying that people are going to hell...threatening people with punishment and saying that MTH is going to start the end of the world. That is rude, and certainly sounds like you think you think you are "(Holy) spiritually superior".

[christoferL]

Femi - MTH isn't going to start the end of the world - that was his line which I used when asked to make a roast video. As for Hell - if u don't believe in God then don't sweat it. I don't fear the Islamic version of hell for instance... and yes - I do believe that having the Holy Spirit would make one 'spiritually' superior to one lacking it. I didn't attack MTH before he asked me to roast him, and in truth, I am only going through his BBB series b/c his fans said I couldn't. GBU

[GodUsesAMan]

The bible is God-breathed inspired. Each TRANSLATION contains errors. Learn the difference.

[Femigaytheist]

Reality is the things you see around you, the bible and your god are iron age mythological nonsense. Learn the difference.

[GodUsesAMan]

Prove your statement. Learn how to have a discussion.

[Femigaytheist]

You'd have to be able to put forth a coherent argument, and from what I've read, that's not really your thing. I have to prove nothing, and I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I think you're an idiot.

[GodUsesAMan]

The feeling is mutual except I think you are also childish and possessed.

Learn the difference lol.

[squishy121888]

lol. It's not even an Iron age myth. It's a bronze age myth. Remember, god can't conquer your lands if you own some iron chariots, according to the book of Judges ;p

[GuppyPal]

You have some issues.

[christoferL]

Guppy - don't we all?

[GodUsesAMan]

I know I do. You just don't want our issues to become your issues. :-)

[checotahkid]

Christopher; you are missing the point, when Christ cried out Eli Eli Lama the Roman Legions heard this, his, cry, what was the thought of these soldiers? They thought he was crying to Eli, THEE MAJOR Prophet in the Old Testament, with ELI, in Hebrew meaning, GOD, you never did answer about the 3 scriptures regarding the Transfiguration, and the 3 people in the Transfiguration, as welll as Psalms 21:1-9 which was written in regards to the Book of Kings.Luke 16:31These scriptures do come together

[checotahkid]

The 3 scriptures I sent to you were on the Transfiguration, now we all the 3 figures in the Transfiguration, right. Also Luke 16:19-31, in verse 31 what does Abraham tell the rich man say about his brothers, and to whom do they need to listen to because they are where ? Eli in Hebrew do we know what translates to GOD Eli Eli, Lama Sabtachthani, My God my God why have you forsaken me? Now I mentioned tying together scripture we need to look at Psalms 21,:1-9, next we will look at Isaiah

[christoferL]

checo - do you believe God had truly forsaken Christ - or that Christ in His misery cried out - feeling forsaken? (This is all off the point of the video - btw)

[NJR1210]

I believe that since Jesus took on all the sins of the world, past, present and future (at the time), He did not become corrupt, but the sin on him, aka he became sin, so God forsook, condemned, and cursed him, all to the glory and plan of the Father. This was the atonement.

[checotahkid]

WHOA Chris slow down, stop and look around.First are arguing this from the point of the New Covenant, or the Old Covenant? now if we are going from the New Covenant we start with Matt. 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, or Luke 9:28-36, you can also reference Luke 16:19-31,now if we are going to go by the Old Covenant we need to look @ his successor Elisha in 1st Kings 19:16-19 and we need to know,this translates from one scripture into another scripture.The seven last words of Christ ELI ELI LAMA Sabachthani

[christoferL]

um - no - all we need to do is understand that the Prof is taking the story of Elijah going to the sky as literally meaning heaven - and look at where Jesus went with the criminal - which was paradise which is in sheol...

[AhoSenpai]

I totally agree with you on this one, confirms my own study.

shalom

[droptozro]

man this guys "bible blunders" are .... quite weak.

Maybe ProfMTH should go have a sit down with a professor of Christian Theology with a good Biblical background--he's reaching outside his bounds trying to tell Jews and Christians what their books say... it's kind of common sense, step down ProfMTH--go get some Bible knowledge plz

good videos Chris---keep showing the blunders for what(who) they are

[quebec10000]

droptozro. Your words "its kind of common sense? You want see common sense.

Where did Josiah died?@kings23;29-30 in Meggido

2Chron.35'23-24 in Jerusalem,here we one man who died in 2 diff. places,LOL

[droptozro]

@quebec10000

Is that REALLY what you consider a contradiction? Descriptions of how/where a man died? LoL

Ever read that it doesn't say "where" he died in the 2 Chronicles? it just said "and so he died." He attained a fatal wound in Meggido... knew he was going to die, and requested proper burial. this is funny tho, keep trying I have a feeling I'll be teaching you about metonymy of subject soon and figurative language in the Bible because I know of worse *seeming* contradictios

[quebec10000]

Droptozo. The kjv bible in 2Chron.35;24"They broughthim to Jerusalem,And he died.."...so don;t say it does not say he died when you know it does.

He attain a fatal wound... That is not what the text says,2Kings23;29-30 read it "# he SLEW at Meggido NOT WOUNDED,#30 They carried him in a chariot DEAD not WOUNDED to Jeru.

There is actually 3-4 contradictions in those verses alone. There is no figurative language in the book unless you want to escape a contradiction.I go by what the text says only

[GodUsesAMan]

Dude enable ur vids for mobile phones!

[theheat151]

Hey ChrisL, what's your opinion on Enoch?

[christoferL]

Enoch frightens me for many many reasons...

[sparkshot]

@christoferL - could you list a few reasons why enoch scares you please? I read that apocrayphal book sometimes.

[LiftAloft]

Thanks for this series, bro... I'm learning a lot.

[SeptemberCatholic18]

I'm glad you recognize the distinction between heaven, hell, and sheol.

[JeromeStein4U]

BAM! Another pathetic argument down.

[MultiArchangel]

Cool man. CreationistsWon already got him good on this one though. Oh well. Hammer the point home anyway. 5 stars.