@MrRoboto81 Good question. You have to know the feeling of unconditional love that she was feeling. Maybe blindness and other diseases seemed somehow in a different perspective then. I don't know 4 sure.
@shizzleman8 "I'm on the side of my experience not Sam Harris' explanations."
Not all experiences are real. Last night I had an experience (dream) where I was back in high school and was sliding down stairs, does that mean I was really in a high school sliding down stairs in another dimension? No, it was all in my head. I'm not biased, it's just logical to go with natural explanations over supernatural ones because extraordinary claims (supernatural) require extraordinary evidence.
@shizzleman8 So even though you are right that people who experienced NDE's report about it after they have been clinically dead and suffered brain death, you have absolutely no way of proving that that the experience actually happened during that time of brain death, rather than when the brain was in the process of shutting down and releasing DMT and serotonin...Just Sayin
@shizzleman8 Also just because someone claimed they heard doesn't mean they did. The brain releases mass amounts of DMT and serotonin at death and I bet she probably thought she heard because of being in that state, that doesn't mean she did. You can't just believe every story you hear, this just promotes gullibility. You need to research how the brain can fool people if there is damage or a misfiring of neurons or release of too much chemicals. The brain is a powerful thing.
@shizzleman8 "Try starting from the beginning like the Cause of the universe and go from there."
A cause is a rearrangement of matter preceding it's effect in time, since time and matter did not exist until after The Big Bang there is no logical reason to think it was caused. If it was caused by something, there is no reason to think it was something intelligent or something with consciousness. Also, all you are doing is claiming X, so me claiming X has been debunked is just as valid a claim.
@emporroll The person can say that they experienced the NDE right until they woke up but that doesn't mean anything, because if the person is brain dead then they have no sense of time so it doesn't matter how long the brain was actually dead it would only feel like a split second to the patient. It's like when you go unconscious it only feels like a second but it could have been 20 minutes.
@emporroll Also people have reported NDE's after they have gone completely brain dead, how is this possible? Well the brain just doesn't shut off like a light switch, it progressively dies. This means that the experience could have been during the dying process when mass amounts of DMT are produced, and even though the brain went dead, that doesn't mean the person had the experience when it was dead. They simply recall events they experienced while the brain was dying.
@thegroove2000 If you are blind and feel someone's legs, arms, a torso and a head then it's not hard to imagine the shape of a human body without ever seeing one. These blind people having these experiences are simply creating these visions based of what they have felt. Also NDE's have already been explained scientifically, I'm shocked people are still talking about these NDE's like they actually indicate an afterlife or something. I guess some people are just gullible.
It's actually rather depressing that people interpret this as a miracle. For example, did you know that when you "See light at the end of the tunnel," it's basically the mental imprinting of the synapses of the brain firing, failingly, in an attempt to send information with increasingly lower amounts of energy? Desperation of the dendritic tendrils, trying to communicate with each other with lower and lower amounts of resources needed to do so. I'm sure none of you understand what I mean...
@CreedOfHeresy ::: Do you even understand what you are saying? You are describing a dying brain. The experts: Dr Raymond Moody, Dr Melvin Morse, Dr Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, studied the phenomena of life after death, and have found that nothing of a physical nature can account for the experience. A 'miracle' is only the obedience to a higher law.
@k0smon To this guy Vicki's automobile accident was a "natural" happening. Everything is natural to a naturalist. He told me in a private message that I was wrong to assume murder isn't natural. "murder is natural" - CreedofHeresy If murder is natural then why would it be against the law and why would some states execute you for it? I'm a firm believer that exectution would be a deterent if we did them publicly again. Gather the kids and teens around the lethal injection table. 8)
@shizzleman8 ::: Murder is natural in wartime. It is natural in the animal kingdom as they hunt for food. It cannot be allowed in a civilized society as it is damaging to any constructed unit. Public execution would encourage cruelty. The death sentence is 100% effective against any repeated offense.
@k0smon Murder is never natural. Naturalism is a faith that states everything can be explained naturally. Alvin Pantiga showed that evolution can't gurantee the veracity of our thoughts. Evolution tests for behavior and many different thoughts can give rise to the same behavior. Have you ever seen Blood on the Highway, the film they show teenagers in driver's ED? Public executions would drive down the rate of muder in the same way. If it didn't work, they wouldn't put warnings on labels!
@shizzleman8 Your train of thought is going in five different directions and none of them make event he slightest bit of sense. But the fact that you are a man who believes in the afterlife and presumably god of some kind and also advocates public executions and inviting the mental and emotional trauma of killing someone in front of them truly defines what a sick fuck you are. I am done discussing anything with you, I don't want to associate with you in ANY way whatsoever, psycho.
@shizzleman8 Also, I invite you to look up some of the information regarding states with the death penalty; they have HIGHER murder rates than states that do NOT implement the death sentence. What a strange turn of events; the state that has people who think killing someone under circumstance of law is OK has more murderers?? I can't imagine why.
@CreedOfHeresy Prisons in the USA have the least number of atheists. That doesn't prove anything. People commit crimes thinking they're going to get away with it not because they think they're not. You're entirely prejudiced in the same way to your position. The fact that you have one shows your level of intelligence. No one is requiring that you take a side but you obviously have. You can't find evidence of God the same way a thief can't find a cop.
@shizzleman8 What the fuck are you TALKING about?? What does this have to do with ANYTHING? No one is requiring you to take a side but yet I have? So says the guy with a giant fucking roman torture-death device in his profile picture! You're just as prejudiced, you hypocritical bible-thumping whackjob, if not MORE so. This is the last reply I make; I am done trying to lower my intelligence to put myself into a mindset to argue with the likes of you.
@CreedOfHeresy The Cross is a gift to me from the U.S. Navy. I practice the law mostly for a living now. I'm a paid advocate. I'm on your side even though you're not paying me except with your compliments. Hey, thanks for those btw.
@CreedOfHeresy See how your comment from 9 hours ago to me isn't here? It's because you're a last word freak who blocked me THEN commented to me. YouTube's got your number! You're derelict, what you're doing isn't defensable.
@k0smon Have found nothing YET. God fills in the gaps of science, always has, always will. That is not proof in and of itself, it is only a replacement. Scientific understanding always evolves. There is no other explanation as to the actual experience in detail yet. YET. But there will be one day, just as everyone once assumed that rain came from a giant firmament in the sky [so says the bible, look it up] until science explained the cycle of precipitation.
@CreedOfHeresy When she went back into her body and was very sick and felt the excruciating pain what do you suppose her synapses were doing then Dr.? She went from seeing and not being afraid of bumping into anything and being able to bring forth all knowledge to being an accident victim. Just stick with the facts of the person's testimony. Your explanations don't even rise to the level of worthless opinions, not even hearsay.
to their environments [a few google searches will yield such scientific backing]. It has nothing to do with divinity. Not to burst your religiously hopeful bubble or nothin', but that's not a miracle; it's the result of DNA ancestry.
Seeing with the mind is not impossible. The mind creates its own images to match with the other four sources of its information. There are reports of people who have been deaf hearing things within their head and describing them and people without taste receptors somehow describing the memory of basic taste. Instinctual memory carries over via DNA, which has been shown in non-human animals such as chimpanzees, apes, cats, and dogs in relation...
but I will say this, think of the most heightened feeling of love that you have ever felt in your life here on Earth, What I felt, I don't think our bodies can handle it ,It is that MAGNETICLY strong but feels great.
When I was brought back I didn't want to go back into my body, I also approach this subject with caution when I don't know the person who has written it, but I will say this: THE LORD IS MY WITTNESS AND THIS IS THE TRUTH of what happened to me!
@brad060498 My own older brother and my PASTOR didn't believe me. I told my Pastor, "because it happend to me and not you, then it couldn't have happened", and he stood up and started to glow and had a grin from ear to ear like all of a sudden he understood I was telling him the truth. My sister said, "Prove it". It's amazing how hard people will try to explain away what we as humans experience. A friend just told me, "I believe you". I believe you, it's evident in your writing. Glory.
20 years ago I would not have dreamed of doing that work.
I was also shown other things that will happen but for the moment I have strong feeling not to disclose that yet, as I feel that I am not meant to yet.
The whole experience of how I felt through out the journey that I was taken on can not be put into our words here, but I will say this, think of the most heightened feeling of love that you have ever felt in your life here on Earth,
My experience was by the sound of it very much like yours. I was shown my past with out judgment, but I felt the greatest compassion and understanding. I was shown that our time here is to learn.
I was shown many things back then that may happen in my future, which have come true, for eg: working for the NSW Ambulance service and worked at the highest level of security for a civilian working with federal politicians from around the word.
@GoodyBob NDE and intelligent design have nothing to do with eachother. Besides, no serious person will ''believe'' in this sort of things. They look at the evidence, and if there is none, which is the case here, the idea will be rejected like every other man made bronze age myths. I disliked because it's a dumb idea and because there are far better explanations.
@MihaZ Direct evidence is testimony and the #3 definition of testimony at dictionary. co m is profession of faith. 600 million people have testified to this experience. It just doesn't get any more evidentiary than that!
@shizzleman8 Testimony is a form of evidence, which is a very weak one. Regardless, the phenomenon is real, people do have such experiences. However, it is presomptuous of you to immediately assume that this is a proof a supreme being exists. It's not. That's a huge leap of faith there. The NDE are studied by real scientists (not a random and biased TV show) through neurology and psychology. It is a material phenomenon and the answer is within our brain.
@MihaZ After judicial and legislative notice like of God for instance the next highest form of evidence is direct which is eyewitness testimony. You have a double standard for who it is that does the "observing" and "research". 1 in 3 people have experienced the supernatural. Next you'll be telling me that those people don't count because sensory perceptions of people are highly susceptible to error, but that goes for those doing the observing and research you're talking about. Special pleading.
@shizzleman8 Stay there and pray all your want, I couldn't care less. Outstanding individuals will keep searching for real answers and not some silly ''para-normal'' nonsense. Perhaps I can put it this way, every mystery ever solved turned out to be NOT MAGIC. I know, it's too easy. But it's alot easier to fill anything we don't quite understand with God.
@MihaZ The proof of God is in the universe requiring Cause, Conservation, and Concurrent Causality. Your supposition that only materiality explains everything doesn't even explain itself, that's why naturalism is a belief. Prayer has been proven to work, again, faith is a proven commodity, it's testimony, people professing their faith. Even if it's a "weak" form of evidence it's still light years ahead of doubt & ignorance. Hope is a powerful force also. You have no idea what spirit you're of!
@shizzleman8 In this regard, your position is lazy since you don't even bother to understand how it works, as you assume your inability to obtain a relevant amount of knowledge about it. Science ajusts it views based of what observed. You cherry pick random stuff and expect me to take you seriously? Provide valid evidence. You can use your dictionnary to learn more about a strict research protocol, since you seem unaware of its requirements.
@MihaZ Most of these life after death experiences are a result of people being resuscitated after dying on the operating table after previously undergone general anesthesia which makes their experiences naturally impossible. Who's cherry picking evidence but you? You're not even cherry picking, you're suggesting that select scientist's explanations are greater than eyewitness testimony. That's hardly empirical data.
@shizzleman8 Also you have no way to prove that these people having the experience had it during their brain death and not while it was in the process of dying. Just because someone was brain dead and recalls an experience doesn't mean they had the experience while brain dead, it is very likely they had the experience while in the process of the brain dying, then it died for a while, and they come back telling the story about what happened while the brain was dying, not while it was dead.
@theBartone9119 Have you ever had an experience? Of course you have. Now let me ask you, "How do you know that it was real? I mean how do you KNOW you're not dreaming all this right now? How do you KNOW that you're typing a comment to me? How are we as humans informed?"
I'll help you the best I can to understand your own position, but you have to be honest with yourself.
@shizzleman8 Well if I'm dying, and I go through an experience that defies reality in my mind, and I wake back up to tell about it the first thing that would pop into my mind would be "Wow my brain was doing some weird things while it was dying", I would not think "Wow I just entered an actually spiritual world and this is where I spend eternity when I die!" . To me that's just stupid.
@theBartone9119 Dying is a real experience. I've witnessed my soul outside of my body while I was awake and healthy. It's not unprecedented either. There's no experience like it on earth. I'm 50 years old and there's no way my brain did this. It's indescribable friends. Just examine the number of atheists who have died and what % of them stop being atheists. 1 in 3 people go through experiences that defy reality in their minds. We all aren't just material, that's irrational to think so.
@shizzleman8 "Dying is a real experience. I've witnessed my soul outside of my body while I was awake and healthy.... there's no way my brain did this"
This is where you are wrong, there is a University where they recreate out of body experiments with a machine and it all has to do with the brain and it completely natural.
@theBartone9119 You don't know what you experience? Are there studies being done somewhere that explain what you're doing right now about what you're experiencing that prove you're wearing jeans and have a striped shirt on, and that you're munching on nutter butters? Of Course NOT. It's silly to assume that someone else who didn't experience what I experienced has some authority or expertise over my experience. It's not even HEARSAY! No friend, you've made up your mind before you got called.
@shizzleman8 It's clear people only cling to the idea of an afterlife because of fear of mortality, denial of our pure biological self, and out of ignorance to the power of the human brain and imagination.
@theBartone9119 You don't fear your own mortality or if you do it's not stopping you from promoting your position. I'm just suggesting that you have NO evidence for what you're suggesting. You're only suggesting at the times when people die they secrete certain chemicals that make hallucinations possible, but in no way does that contradict eyewitness testimony of 600 million experiencers worldwide who have had the same basic experience.
@shizzleman8 "in no way does that contradict eyewitness testimony of 600 million experiencers worldwide who have had the same basic experience"
No it doesn't, I believe that they had the experiences they had.... The only difference is I believe it was the brain doing odd things it usually doesn't do on a regular basis and only under extreme circumstances, and they believed it was a door to another world because it was there brain tricking them.
@theBartone9119 What you believe about someone else's experience is exactly what I've been describing to you about what I believe about yours. It's WORTHLESS. People who have beliefs about others experiences are never called to give eyewitness testimony. People who ARE called are the ones who EYEWITNESS the event(s) in question.
@shizzleman8 Like I said, just because you had an experience and thought it was real doesn't mean it was. It's called hallucination, do you not even know what that means? Research it.
@theBartone9119 Just because you experience and think that it's not is what separates us. I accept what I experience as real. That's the difference between an atheist and the rest of humanity. One believes people's testimony of what they experience and the other YOU go by what you're bias dictates per selected explanations of what others experience. How many times have you testified to what you've experienced? NONE, because you're saying experiences aren't valid. Try to GET IT!
That's your first mistake. When I was high on meth for 3 days when I was 19 I started to hear voices in my head (they were auditory hallucinations) and I believed they were real at the time and started accusing my friends of wispering behind my back when they weren't. You can't believe everything you experience, like I said, you are IGNORANT to the power of the brain and the things your mind can conjure up in odd situations.
@theBartone9119 WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED WAS REAL! Just because you were hallucinating doesn't mean you weren't experiencing. Good grief dude you're just saying what I am now. You KNOW what you were experiencing. I've heard voices before. I looked around and the person whose voice I heard wasn't there and I kind of figured it out. I read three books on the brain last March. You can't interchange the word brain and mind, they're not the same thing.
@shizzleman8 "You can't interchange the word brain and mind, they're not the same thing."
The mind is not the same thing as the brain, but sight isn't the same thing as an eye either. Without the eyes there is no sight, and without the brain, there is no mind..
@theBartone9119 Here's one way I know this experience is genuine. My friend whose videos I feature on my channel told me of another experience that people frequently have. His mother was awoken by her dad when he passed. She told her husband and then the next morning they got the news that he passed. Additionally psychokinesis has been proved. Currently the Global Consciousness Project has 90+ labs running aroung the world that prove this one phenomenon beyond a rational doubt.
@shizzleman8 "Additionally psychokinesis has been proved"
I highly doubt it, also she probably had a subconscious hunch he was going to die, had a vivid dream about it, and it it turned out to be true...Big deal, what about all the vivid dreams that people have had that that DIDN'T come true? You are bound to get a few lucky hits among a sea of misses.
@theBartone9119 Just look at the studies done by Radin & Ferrari. Consider this my friend, you're not researching anything you're telling me the way it is as though I and Vicki here were Conrad Murray giving Michael Jackson the fatal dose of propofol. The fact that you're a dyed in the wool atheist who automatically rejects all forms of evidence as they pertain to the supernatural IS NOT in the slightest apparent to YOU, but it SCREAMS prejudice to a soul like mine. 8¬ ) We're just accidents?
No? Well why don't you look up the study done at the University of Kentucky about NDE's and how they can even happen while clinically dead due to REM intrusions triggers by the brain stem? There is a lot of research you can do, you just pick and chose what research you want to research lol
@theBartone9119 That what's known as confirmation bias. It's everything other than what people actually experience. People have left their bodies and gone into waiting rooms and overheard conversations. The first chapter of Musicophilia is about a dr. who was stuck by lightning left their body saw and recognized the OR nurse who resuscitated him, and then he gave up his lucrative practice and became a concert pianist. I've got people, you've got selective "explanations". One's empirical.
@shizzleman8 "People have left their bodies and gone into waiting rooms and overheard conversations"
You can't prove they left their bodies, you are simply going off what the person said. I already linked you to that video proving out of body experiences are explained by the brain but you ignored it.
@theBartone9119 You're just going off what people say, and not even the ones who had the experience or ones who heard about the experiences. You're going off of what people who reject what the experiencers testify to have to say about what they believe the experience is. For a 2nd time that doesn't even rise to the level of hearsay!
@theBartone9119 Yes I'm biased to my experience. Plus I go by the law. God is the Creator and Supreme Ruler of the universe. Concurrent causality and conservation is required. Survival of the fittest doesn't account for the objective moral foundation that is known as law. Saying I'm biased without showing how is childish.
@shizzleman8 "God is the Creator and Supreme Ruler of the universe"
The God of Abraham is a fictional character from a book written thousands of years ago by bronze age shepherds in the dessert who didn't even know about gravity or evolution. God is just as real as Superman or Spiderman. You call me childish but you are the one who believes in fairy tales, look up the word Irony.
@theBartone9119 Now you want to argue against the bible, sorry I'm not an apologist but what I am good at is seening the differences in people's positions to the facts. Look up naturalism on wikipedia. For the 3rd time now IT"S THE BELIEF. The laws of nature are immaterial and intentional. Means are prepared in advance of ends. Intentions falsify the evolution of the human mind. < That all falsifies naturalism. Intentions have no EXTENSION in reality! Deal with it.
@shizzleman8 "For the 3rd time now IT"S THE BELIEF"
Not really. You know the natural world is real too, you get hungry, bleed, shit, piss, east, sweat and you know you are biological. The difference is you believe there is something MORE. Since you are the one claiming the additive to what we all know is true (the natural world) then the burden of proof is on you to prove that it exists.
@theBartone9119 You're informed of the phsyical world by what? If we're just material than materiality would direct our behavior, that's why evolution is a theory and not a law. The law PROVES that we have WILL, intentions, and consciousness that natural selection can't find ANY traction in. The veracity of human thought can give rise to the same behavior and that FALSIFIES naturalism and biological evolution of the mind. < 8th time!
@shizzleman8 "The veracity of human thought can give rise to the same behavior and that FALSIFIES naturalism and biological evolution of the mind"
You must not know about neuroscience, there are studies that prove that biological actions take place in your brain a certain amount of time before you become aware of it. So while you are thinking you want to open your mouth to say something, the neurons already fired off before that tricking you into thinking you made a conscious choice.
The above is evidence that conscious free will is an illusion, the experiment proves that the choice to press the right button was already biologically made before the conscious was aware that it thought it made the choice.
@theBartone9119 To believe what you do you must first eliminate the whole of human experience in favor of selective scientists explanations. They're doing the research, creating the "God Helmet" in favor of their predisposed philosophical prejudice. That's not science it's a priori assumption. Bias. Human intentions make the natural evolution of the mind impossible. < Deal with that!
@shizzleman8 Well I'm only 24 and it seems I am much more rational than you. I will only jump to supernatural conclusions if no natural explanations can account for something, you on the other hand will just jump to the supernatural conclusions and ignore all rational explanations. The only one with bias here is you my friend.
@theBartone9119 You're not jumping anywhere. You're fixed on one position that's because you're only 24 and have never tried a case in a court of law before. I have. It's easy to be right when it's only you who decides. God is judicially and legislatively noticed. Murder is not natural it's an unnatural cause of death. Naturalism is a BELIEF. You can't prove my motive, but I've proven yours in everything you write. You just want to be right, but you don't have ANY evidence. NO EXPERIENCE
@shizzleman8 I'm not fixed on one position, I would gladly accept the supernatural explanation if no natural explanation could account for it, but countless do. You on the other hand reject all evidence of natural explanations, all studies and proof that out of body experiences are just due to the brain and refuse to let go of your fairy tale supernatural mother goose explanations. I feel weird telling a 50 year old this, but maybe you should grow up.. Just a thought.
@theBartone9119 I've given you dozens now. You only SAY they're not evidence because you're prejudiced to your position. Is it possible that any evidence can prove God and the Supernatural to you? Of course none exists for you. No matter what I suggest or say is a fact like PSYCHOKINESIS you AUTOMATICALLY REJECTED IT. I DOUBT THAT'S TRUE!!! I could give you evidence all day long (I'm an EXPERT AT IT), and for you it will never be evidence. JUDICIAL NOTICE IS EVIDENCE.
@shizzleman8 " Is it possible that any evidence can prove God and the Supernatural to you?"
Yes, there is already an experiment being done where there are numbers written on the top of cabinets in a hospitals so if people have an out of body NDE and they see the room in detail like many report doing, they should know the numbers. Countless people have had NDE's since in the hospital since the numbers were set up, not ONE person recalled seeing the whole room in detail saw the numbers.
@shizzleman8 There was also a study done where they proved that prayers have absolutely no effect on results. There are tons of ways to run experiments to prove the supernatural exists, the problem is all of them fail and there is not a shred of evidence for the supernatural.
@theBartone9119 Yes, I know what hallucinations are. I can testify to them. I've experienced them, and I've experienced my soul on the outside of my body and they're not the same experience. There's not a shred of evidence for you because you deny all the evidence before you began. Why make up your mind before even investigating? Why make up your mind after investigating? Maybe some new information may come to light. Why do you? Because you're PREJUDICED. You want to be right at all costs.
@shizzleman8 "Why make up your mind before even investigating?"
I didn't, I investigated and came to the conclusion that there are natural explanations for these things so it makes sense to stick with those before jumping to supernatural explanations. You should ALWAYS except the natural explanation and ONLY jump to supernatural explanations if nothing else could explain it. This never happens, deeming the supernatural an unlikely hypothesis.
@brad060498 30 years ago for me. I was touched by the Exorcist Barbara Purcell of the Cornerstone Chruch in Downey. My soul rose up out of my body in 1999. What Barbara did for people was a demonstration of the power of God. What an amazing gift. Please tell us more about your experience. All of life is one big experience for the faithful.
Here's a brain that was not able to process visual images and suddenly after the near death experience was able to do it. Is it still fake? Why can't these people accept the fact that God is real and after death we will see God? Anyway, this thing will happen to everybody and I hope that at that time in your lives - guys who don't believe - you can still come back and testify that what happened is true and that Jesus Christ is real.
@paulinelapaz The majority of people, nearly all, don't have religious or religious specific experiences. It's AWEFUL SPIRITUAL. There's no judgement. People who have this experience come back more loving and experienced changed lives because of the awesomeness of the love they feel. Did you know hell isn't a word in the Hebrew language? Hell is improperly translated for the words Hades, Sheol and Gehenna.
@paulinelapaz ::: Yes, God is real. But we will never 'see' him as we see another person because he does not have that form. Whether Jesus is real or not does not matter because the Creator is, and that is all that matters. It will be a wonderful life when we get over there.
@k0smon To the only one you made: God is real. You find a poor excuse and mention that he is in another form, and that's why we can't see him. How convenient! You have no evidence to back up this ridiculous claim. As you know, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
@MihaZ ::: The existence of God is not an extraordinary claim. It is a very common claim. No one can 'prove' God, nor can they 'disprove' Him. It is not a ridiculous claim, there are probably more people that believe in God than not. As a skeptic, there is no reason nor evidence available that will convince you. Most people are more rational than that, realizing that 'something' does not come from 'nothing'.
@MihaZ ::: Two mainstays of skepticism : Denial and name-calling. Of course you deny God, and of course you use name-calling : "fallacious arguments". You ran out of steam quite early. Happy skepticism !!
@k0smon I don't have to deny a statement for which there is no evidence. I wonder if you have any academic background. As you know, when flagged as such, a fallacious argument means that your idea/reasoning is incorrect. If you want me to point out the numerous logical flaws in your reasoning,I don't mind. In any case, you sure are good at calling me names as if it had anything to do with the topic itself.
They're referred to as no-body murder trials and convictions. No body, no physical or forensic evidence of any kind. It's impossible for an atheist or a naturalist to wrap their mind around. That's why you don't have a job, and I'm doing this because I'm bored.
You're just telling me YOUR story about what you think proof, anecdote, testimony, and evidence are. No authoritative case references? Then you're giving me bullshit. Thanks, but I'm all stocked up here.
@punkunite123 Nah I don't want to disprove it's not necessary. However anyone that wants to pass this as true do necessarily need to prove it, and this isn't proof.
@finalcloud13 Direct evidence is first hand testimony from the person who experienced something. This is not only proof/evidence, it's also very convincing. You can google this and find a person who gives Vicki's last name. This is one of the more oft looked at NDEs like Pam Reynolds. She's gone now but her testimony still stands.
@shizzleman8 No anecdote is proof. If it counted as proof, there would be a LOT of innocent people locked up in prison. Proof is empirical or something that can be derived through the laws of logic.
@finalcloud13 Vicki Umipeg is ATTESTING to her experience. An anecdote means: 1.A short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person. 2.An account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.
Hearsay as a general rule is not admissible. There are however 30 EXCEPTIONS to the rule. Vicki is the person who had the experience her testifying is the only relevant one other than the doctors and nurses at Harbor View. You can write the words "laws of logic" don't mean you have any. 8)
Anedcote: a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident
Lol.
Girl says she was raped by Kobe Bryant. Her friends say he did too. No evidence that this happened other than their words against his. Understand that testimony, and "attesting" (lol, HUGE difference from anecdote), are good for nothing by themselves. You need more.
Also nice try with the laws of logic comment, it was almost clever.
@finalcloud13 Not as clever as knowing the difference between a story & narrative account or the difference between a first person auto-biography and a SECOND hand (hearsay) account known as a biography. JK Rawlings tells stories. The difference is that in a court of law you offer perjured testimony you subject yourself upto 5 years in prison (felony).
By your own admission your "words" are worth nothing. Boo-YAH! I get paid a lot of money for my opinion. Science at it's best/Prediction
@shizzleman8 So tell me what you'd do in the Kobe case? Assuming one of them is lying but you don't know who. Don't worry, you don't have to answer because I already know. And it doesn't have to do with more testimony, first or anyhand.
@finalcloud13 You look for the precedent. Did Mike Tyson rape some bitch-whore? What about Rothlesburger? Yep, that's my guess. Kobe? You betcha. Did OJ Simpson murder his wife and Ron Goldman in a jealous rage and leave his blood at the crime scene and then all the way back to his rockingham estate? Of course. He didn't even OWN a pair of Bruno Magli's until the civil trial then he made himself a sandwich like Judas Iscariot and split out the back until he was caught robbing in Las Vegas.
@finalcloud13 how could u prove if this is true or not then? this is a subjective experience... no science in the world will prove this cos science is objective which leads eventually again to subjectivism. people can lie indeed, but u'll find out when u experience urself.
@ LarryLynx ... also, you don't see things you never have seen, even when stimulating the visual cortex, but you already know this correct? Comon' be honest.
@ZangaroZen I'm going to take that last option with the exception that I have no desire to "bugger". This is subject matter that I'm interested in, the scinece of near death experience, not buggering. I don't even know what that word means and I don't want to. You use a lot of language that I'm not exposed to in my normal routine of living and I'd like to keep it that way.
These cases are so important. I cant stress that enough, and no scientist can explain what is happening because it is beyond there knowledge and understanding, but i am sure some one out there will come out with some bullshit.
Science is only a narrow band of frequence to understand the reality. But I respect science in its process to test validate, reject, remodel a theory. There will always be believer and skeptics. Some still think the earth is flat, right? We all have out of body experience, and that is called dream. I feel so much better understanding that our essence is eternal out of fear based reality.
@scivanpoon A dream is not a out of body experience. A real OBE its the separation of consciousness from the carrier vessel IE the body. Yes i agree, it feels soo good knowing that our energy carries on after we leave this dimension.
Yes, it feel good because it felt bad as fear is educated to us since birth
Yes, it wasn't until you wake up inside a dream and realised you are dreaming.
To me, all we are doing are dreaming/creating/imaginating before aware of that the reality is also a dream(Deception, dream within dream within dream, and fractual universe).
@scivanpoon It's not a dream. People experience reality when they leave their bodies. The first chapter of Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks relays a true account of an orthopedic surgeon who was struck by lightning and witnessed the nurse who resuscitated him from outside of his body. He then went on to give up his medical practice and became a famous classical conert pianist. There are 500 million of these cases. People frozen, struck by lightning/electricty all experienced heaven while DEAD
Yes, there are cases of OBEs. I know there are clear distintion if clearly define the defination of OBEs, dream or astral travel. To me they are very close so I group them under a similar mystical experience. They are real, because the only thing we can prove real is our experience to ourselves!
@scivanpoon I thought you were a YT user who I had conversed with before, but they were using dreams and dream states to dismiss all supernatural phenomena.
The law proves everything. Try reading the Federal Rules of Evidence. I'd also suggest: lists of logical fallacies, and lists of common courtroom objections. I'm constantly surrounded by the world's greatest attorneys because of money. My boss for instance as JAG never lost a case in 24 years as a prosecutor and defense attorney! Peace
As internet evolve faster then any control machanism imposed by the ruling class, ppl will share their idea, experience, evidence, thought more freely and, less subjected to model religion of "Money" or "Science" or of any opinion from the mass media. Human can evolve faster and revert back into the light. I hope internet can evolve even faster to the point of no return(at least for another 10,000yr) so we can enjoy this shift in consciouness and begin to ask "Who am I", as a race.
@thegroove2000 u're right, we're living in a meterial world which is objective and so scientists research the objective but if we go to the extreme, even the most objective is subjective in a way. so the only way to understand is direct observation of ourselves, what do u feel, think, know, ... when u are doing ... if we find out a little truth, it's cos of our experiences, not other's, and deffenetly no scientific tests.
@thegroove2000 NDE are very well documented by psychologists. You can't excuse your ignorance forever by accusing scientists of bullshit if you don't even bother to read science journals.
@thegroove2000 Of course they are. I'm not talking about psychotherapists, but scientists who study the human brain, its functions and how it affects perceptions and behavior. If you are to display your ignorance in public, at least try not to be rude to others.
@MihaZ Thanks for the reply, and remember that scientists, do not hold the answers to everything. They are as we are, mere infants of knowledge when it comes to the mysteries of then universe.
@thegroove2000 Of course not, science is a rationnal process to obtain knowledge. It ajusts its views based of what observed, unlike religions who claim absolute knowledge and don't feel embarassed when they don't provide any evidence. Modern cosmology is indeed a young science, thanks to religious repression during hundreds of years. However, we never had a better understanding of nature than we do now.
@thegroove2000 Here's an easy way to remember. Science means knowing or knowledge, or a branch of knowledge. Psychology is a science it's a "human" science not a natural science. This is actually a medical science and it's covered by religion/theology as well. His comment above he's talking about neuroscience. The thing with all scientists is their "science" all falls along philosophical lines. More like position/stance and confirmation bias. Why doesn't anyone ever admit when they're wrong?
@thegroove2000 You're welcome. I find great fulfillment in relationships from these testimonies. What a way to minister hope, faith and love to a dying and lost world.
@thegroove2000 :::There are credible accounts of life after death for 150 years. Scientists such as Melvin Morse MD, Kubler Ross, Raymond Moody studied these types of cases for years and concluded they are the real thing. The only bullshit associated with this phenomena is that which is between the ears of those who have their heads firmly in the sand and deny, deny, deny. The reality of life after death is AMAZING.
@k0smon I am doing lots of research into remote viewing also, and i am convinced that there are 2 parts to the human race IE the body and the consciousness.
@thegroove2000 The only bullshit is believing the mind can survive longer than brain, that's like believing your car can travel for more time than the motor is running..
Blind people can see during these experiences because if you spend a whole life touching things then it's not hard to imagine shapes in great detail. If I put in a cube in your hand and you feel it, then you will imagine the straight lines and shapes in your head without ever actually seeing it.
the problem is she said she saw them, she didnt say she put her hand over them and then saw them, what you said about touching the cube is not comparable to what she described, what she describes cannot be explained by your petty naturalistic examples and explainations, i hope all people will come to the truth of god and stop scoffing, and i hope that even if you dont agree with me that you dont resent me, i just want you to hear what i think about it, please seek god
@emporroll You are not getting the point, if you are blind and spend your whole life feeling objects then you can imagine shapes of things in great detail during these experiences and envision objects in the mind based of previous touching of objects. What's petty is thinking consciousness can survive longer than the brain, that's like saying a car can travel for more time than the engine is working in it. Also, why would I seek something I don't believe exists? That's like trying to seek Santa.
@emporroll The truth is you are a biological creature who evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes and when 100% of your brain stops working at death your consciousness is no more. It's not my fault if you want to deny reality.
@emporroll What about the NDE where a woman said she left her body and saw the doctors were laughing and putting foreign objects into her? She tried to sue the doctor and lost because all witnesses disagreed with her and X-rays showed there was nothing in her body. As the brain dies it creates some crazy out of body images, this in no way shape or form indicates a spiritual world, it just means someone is experiencing hallucinations.
@emporroll Unless there is a way to prove that the person recalling the experience was recalling an experience that took place as the brain was dead and not an experience that took place as the brain was dying, then people reporting experiences after brain death isn't really too convincing of something supernatural.
@theBartone9119 You have obviously not gone deep into this fascinating subject. This lady, is just one of many blind people who have experienced this.
Michael Shermer did a good job debunking the claims about remote viewing.
Also blind people have their own type of vision where they imagine shapes based off of what they have touched so it's not so impressive that a blind person "saw" during an NDE.
Everything she said is absolutely true. For more information about this subject you can Google (NDE). There are thousands of cases describing very much similar experiences by different people from different religions and cultural background. According to many surgeons there are 800 cases occurs every single day in the USA alone. It is real, but there are individuals who are using this NDE subject to sell their religions. Death on earth is the beginning of the real free life.
@MainPolar PEOPLE HAVE THE SAME EXACT THING HAPPEN TO THEM IN CENTRIFUGE TESTS (THE SPINNING BALL ON AN ARM THAT THEY USE FOR JET TEST PILOTS TO TEST G'S) THEY SEE EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS ITS ALL A NATURAL THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE WHEN ENOUGH BLOOD DRAINS FROM THEIR BRAINS AND THE BLACK OUT. THERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT ITS ALL FAKE.
OF COURSE THE BRAIN IS GOING TO FREAK OUT WHEN IT THINKS YOUR ABOUT TO DIE.
LOOK UP PEN AND TELLERS EPISODE ABOUT LIFE AFTER DEATH.
@VirusOfCyrus Let's say for a second it is just a natural thing. I'd expect the experiences to be massivley varied in that case. Rather, we have the same kind of general things occuring - people looking down at their body, people seeing a bright light, people seeing loved ones, people seeing religous figures, etc. I don't think any natural phenomenon can cause people all around the world to experience the SAME kind of "hallucinations" or whatever scientists chalk it off as to the extent they do.
"There was a point at which I could bring forth any knowledge I wanted to have."
Why, then, did she not want to bring back the knowledge of how to cure cancer, or AIDS, or BLINDNESS, for that matter?
MrRoboto81 2 days ago
@MrRoboto81 Peace...
mjdosz 16 hours ago
@MrRoboto81 Good question. You have to know the feeling of unconditional love that she was feeling. Maybe blindness and other diseases seemed somehow in a different perspective then. I don't know 4 sure.
mjdosz 16 hours ago
how did she know what birds look like when she saw them ?
lafincow12 6 days ago
I'm on the side of my experience not Sam Harris' explanations.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 "I'm on the side of my experience not Sam Harris' explanations."
Not all experiences are real. Last night I had an experience (dream) where I was back in high school and was sliding down stairs, does that mean I was really in a high school sliding down stairs in another dimension? No, it was all in my head. I'm not biased, it's just logical to go with natural explanations over supernatural ones because extraordinary claims (supernatural) require extraordinary evidence.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
Was that YOUR experience?
shizzleman8 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 It wasn't a death experience, it was a NEAR death experience, if you died then you wouldn't be typing right now.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 So even though you are right that people who experienced NDE's report about it after they have been clinically dead and suffered brain death, you have absolutely no way of proving that that the experience actually happened during that time of brain death, rather than when the brain was in the process of shutting down and releasing DMT and serotonin...Just Sayin
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 Also just because someone claimed they heard doesn't mean they did. The brain releases mass amounts of DMT and serotonin at death and I bet she probably thought she heard because of being in that state, that doesn't mean she did. You can't just believe every story you hear, this just promotes gullibility. You need to research how the brain can fool people if there is damage or a misfiring of neurons or release of too much chemicals. The brain is a powerful thing.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 "Try starting from the beginning like the Cause of the universe and go from there."
A cause is a rearrangement of matter preceding it's effect in time, since time and matter did not exist until after The Big Bang there is no logical reason to think it was caused. If it was caused by something, there is no reason to think it was something intelligent or something with consciousness. Also, all you are doing is claiming X, so me claiming X has been debunked is just as valid a claim.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
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@emporroll The person can say that they experienced the NDE right until they woke up but that doesn't mean anything, because if the person is brain dead then they have no sense of time so it doesn't matter how long the brain was actually dead it would only feel like a split second to the patient. It's like when you go unconscious it only feels like a second but it could have been 20 minutes.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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@emporroll Also people have reported NDE's after they have gone completely brain dead, how is this possible? Well the brain just doesn't shut off like a light switch, it progressively dies. This means that the experience could have been during the dying process when mass amounts of DMT are produced, and even though the brain went dead, that doesn't mean the person had the experience when it was dead. They simply recall events they experienced while the brain was dying.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
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@thegroove2000 If you are blind and feel someone's legs, arms, a torso and a head then it's not hard to imagine the shape of a human body without ever seeing one. These blind people having these experiences are simply creating these visions based of what they have felt. Also NDE's have already been explained scientifically, I'm shocked people are still talking about these NDE's like they actually indicate an afterlife or something. I guess some people are just gullible.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
It's actually rather depressing that people interpret this as a miracle. For example, did you know that when you "See light at the end of the tunnel," it's basically the mental imprinting of the synapses of the brain firing, failingly, in an attempt to send information with increasingly lower amounts of energy? Desperation of the dendritic tendrils, trying to communicate with each other with lower and lower amounts of resources needed to do so. I'm sure none of you understand what I mean...
CreedOfHeresy 1 month ago
@CreedOfHeresy ::: Do you even understand what you are saying? You are describing a dying brain. The experts: Dr Raymond Moody, Dr Melvin Morse, Dr Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, studied the phenomena of life after death, and have found that nothing of a physical nature can account for the experience. A 'miracle' is only the obedience to a higher law.
k0smon 1 month ago
@k0smon To this guy Vicki's automobile accident was a "natural" happening. Everything is natural to a naturalist. He told me in a private message that I was wrong to assume murder isn't natural. "murder is natural" - CreedofHeresy If murder is natural then why would it be against the law and why would some states execute you for it? I'm a firm believer that exectution would be a deterent if we did them publicly again. Gather the kids and teens around the lethal injection table. 8)
shizzleman8 1 month ago
@shizzleman8 ::: Murder is natural in wartime. It is natural in the animal kingdom as they hunt for food. It cannot be allowed in a civilized society as it is damaging to any constructed unit. Public execution would encourage cruelty. The death sentence is 100% effective against any repeated offense.
k0smon 1 month ago
@k0smon Murder is never natural. Naturalism is a faith that states everything can be explained naturally. Alvin Pantiga showed that evolution can't gurantee the veracity of our thoughts. Evolution tests for behavior and many different thoughts can give rise to the same behavior. Have you ever seen Blood on the Highway, the film they show teenagers in driver's ED? Public executions would drive down the rate of muder in the same way. If it didn't work, they wouldn't put warnings on labels!
shizzleman8 1 month ago
@shizzleman8 Your train of thought is going in five different directions and none of them make event he slightest bit of sense. But the fact that you are a man who believes in the afterlife and presumably god of some kind and also advocates public executions and inviting the mental and emotional trauma of killing someone in front of them truly defines what a sick fuck you are. I am done discussing anything with you, I don't want to associate with you in ANY way whatsoever, psycho.
CreedOfHeresy 4 weeks ago
@shizzleman8 Also, I invite you to look up some of the information regarding states with the death penalty; they have HIGHER murder rates than states that do NOT implement the death sentence. What a strange turn of events; the state that has people who think killing someone under circumstance of law is OK has more murderers?? I can't imagine why.
CreedOfHeresy 4 weeks ago
@CreedOfHeresy Prisons in the USA have the least number of atheists. That doesn't prove anything. People commit crimes thinking they're going to get away with it not because they think they're not. You're entirely prejudiced in the same way to your position. The fact that you have one shows your level of intelligence. No one is requiring that you take a side but you obviously have. You can't find evidence of God the same way a thief can't find a cop.
shizzleman8 4 weeks ago
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@shizzleman8 What the fuck are you TALKING about?? What does this have to do with ANYTHING? No one is requiring you to take a side but yet I have? So says the guy with a giant fucking roman torture-death device in his profile picture! You're just as prejudiced, you hypocritical bible-thumping whackjob, if not MORE so. This is the last reply I make; I am done trying to lower my intelligence to put myself into a mindset to argue with the likes of you.
CreedOfHeresy 3 weeks ago
@CreedOfHeresy The Cross is a gift to me from the U.S. Navy. I practice the law mostly for a living now. I'm a paid advocate. I'm on your side even though you're not paying me except with your compliments. Hey, thanks for those btw.
shizzleman8 3 weeks ago
@CreedOfHeresy See how your comment from 9 hours ago to me isn't here? It's because you're a last word freak who blocked me THEN commented to me. YouTube's got your number! You're derelict, what you're doing isn't defensable.
shizzleman8 3 weeks ago
@k0smon Have found nothing YET. God fills in the gaps of science, always has, always will. That is not proof in and of itself, it is only a replacement. Scientific understanding always evolves. There is no other explanation as to the actual experience in detail yet. YET. But there will be one day, just as everyone once assumed that rain came from a giant firmament in the sky [so says the bible, look it up] until science explained the cycle of precipitation.
CreedOfHeresy 4 weeks ago
@CreedOfHeresy When she went back into her body and was very sick and felt the excruciating pain what do you suppose her synapses were doing then Dr.? She went from seeing and not being afraid of bumping into anything and being able to bring forth all knowledge to being an accident victim. Just stick with the facts of the person's testimony. Your explanations don't even rise to the level of worthless opinions, not even hearsay.
shizzleman8 1 month ago
to their environments [a few google searches will yield such scientific backing]. It has nothing to do with divinity. Not to burst your religiously hopeful bubble or nothin', but that's not a miracle; it's the result of DNA ancestry.
CreedOfHeresy 1 month ago
Seeing with the mind is not impossible. The mind creates its own images to match with the other four sources of its information. There are reports of people who have been deaf hearing things within their head and describing them and people without taste receptors somehow describing the memory of basic taste. Instinctual memory carries over via DNA, which has been shown in non-human animals such as chimpanzees, apes, cats, and dogs in relation...
CreedOfHeresy 1 month ago
shizzleman8, e-mail me if you like: brad.nielsen73@gmail.com
brad060498 1 month ago
PS
I was also told that we are here to learn.
ALL THE BEST
Brad
brad060498 1 month ago
@brad060498 Thanks for sharing brother! Very good. I wish all of us would live each day keeping in mind what it's all really about!
GoodyBob 1 month ago
continued:
but I will say this, think of the most heightened feeling of love that you have ever felt in your life here on Earth, What I felt, I don't think our bodies can handle it ,It is that MAGNETICLY strong but feels great.
When I was brought back I didn't want to go back into my body, I also approach this subject with caution when I don't know the person who has written it, but I will say this: THE LORD IS MY WITTNESS AND THIS IS THE TRUTH of what happened to me!
brad060498 1 month ago
@brad060498 My own older brother and my PASTOR didn't believe me. I told my Pastor, "because it happend to me and not you, then it couldn't have happened", and he stood up and started to glow and had a grin from ear to ear like all of a sudden he understood I was telling him the truth. My sister said, "Prove it". It's amazing how hard people will try to explain away what we as humans experience. A friend just told me, "I believe you". I believe you, it's evident in your writing. Glory.
shizzleman8 1 month ago
continued from last post!
20 years ago I would not have dreamed of doing that work.
I was also shown other things that will happen but for the moment I have strong feeling not to disclose that yet, as I feel that I am not meant to yet.
The whole experience of how I felt through out the journey that I was taken on can not be put into our words here, but I will say this, think of the most heightened feeling of love that you have ever felt in your life here on Earth,
brad060498 1 month ago
To shizzelman8
My experience was by the sound of it very much like yours. I was shown my past with out judgment, but I felt the greatest compassion and understanding. I was shown that our time here is to learn.
I was shown many things back then that may happen in my future, which have come true, for eg: working for the NSW Ambulance service and worked at the highest level of security for a civilian working with federal politicians from around the word.
20 years ago I would not have dreamed of
brad060498 1 month ago
Excellent case. 21 dislikes? = the many doctors who think they are God & who still don't believe in NDE's or intelligent design.
GoodyBob 1 month ago 3
@GoodyBob NDE and intelligent design have nothing to do with eachother. Besides, no serious person will ''believe'' in this sort of things. They look at the evidence, and if there is none, which is the case here, the idea will be rejected like every other man made bronze age myths. I disliked because it's a dumb idea and because there are far better explanations.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ Direct evidence is testimony and the #3 definition of testimony at dictionary. co m is profession of faith. 600 million people have testified to this experience. It just doesn't get any more evidentiary than that!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 Testimony is a form of evidence, which is a very weak one. Regardless, the phenomenon is real, people do have such experiences. However, it is presomptuous of you to immediately assume that this is a proof a supreme being exists. It's not. That's a huge leap of faith there. The NDE are studied by real scientists (not a random and biased TV show) through neurology and psychology. It is a material phenomenon and the answer is within our brain.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ After judicial and legislative notice like of God for instance the next highest form of evidence is direct which is eyewitness testimony. You have a double standard for who it is that does the "observing" and "research". 1 in 3 people have experienced the supernatural. Next you'll be telling me that those people don't count because sensory perceptions of people are highly susceptible to error, but that goes for those doing the observing and research you're talking about. Special pleading.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 Stay there and pray all your want, I couldn't care less. Outstanding individuals will keep searching for real answers and not some silly ''para-normal'' nonsense. Perhaps I can put it this way, every mystery ever solved turned out to be NOT MAGIC. I know, it's too easy. But it's alot easier to fill anything we don't quite understand with God.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ The proof of God is in the universe requiring Cause, Conservation, and Concurrent Causality. Your supposition that only materiality explains everything doesn't even explain itself, that's why naturalism is a belief. Prayer has been proven to work, again, faith is a proven commodity, it's testimony, people professing their faith. Even if it's a "weak" form of evidence it's still light years ahead of doubt & ignorance. Hope is a powerful force also. You have no idea what spirit you're of!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 In this regard, your position is lazy since you don't even bother to understand how it works, as you assume your inability to obtain a relevant amount of knowledge about it. Science ajusts it views based of what observed. You cherry pick random stuff and expect me to take you seriously? Provide valid evidence. You can use your dictionnary to learn more about a strict research protocol, since you seem unaware of its requirements.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ Most of these life after death experiences are a result of people being resuscitated after dying on the operating table after previously undergone general anesthesia which makes their experiences naturally impossible. Who's cherry picking evidence but you? You're not even cherry picking, you're suggesting that select scientist's explanations are greater than eyewitness testimony. That's hardly empirical data.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 Also you have no way to prove that these people having the experience had it during their brain death and not while it was in the process of dying. Just because someone was brain dead and recalls an experience doesn't mean they had the experience while brain dead, it is very likely they had the experience while in the process of the brain dying, then it died for a while, and they come back telling the story about what happened while the brain was dying, not while it was dead.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Have you ever had an experience? Of course you have. Now let me ask you, "How do you know that it was real? I mean how do you KNOW you're not dreaming all this right now? How do you KNOW that you're typing a comment to me? How are we as humans informed?"
I'll help you the best I can to understand your own position, but you have to be honest with yourself.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 Well if I'm dying, and I go through an experience that defies reality in my mind, and I wake back up to tell about it the first thing that would pop into my mind would be "Wow my brain was doing some weird things while it was dying", I would not think "Wow I just entered an actually spiritual world and this is where I spend eternity when I die!" . To me that's just stupid.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Dying is a real experience. I've witnessed my soul outside of my body while I was awake and healthy. It's not unprecedented either. There's no experience like it on earth. I'm 50 years old and there's no way my brain did this. It's indescribable friends. Just examine the number of atheists who have died and what % of them stop being atheists. 1 in 3 people go through experiences that defy reality in their minds. We all aren't just material, that's irrational to think so.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "Dying is a real experience. I've witnessed my soul outside of my body while I was awake and healthy.... there's no way my brain did this"
This is where you are wrong, there is a University where they recreate out of body experiments with a machine and it all has to do with the brain and it completely natural.
Check it out:
watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You don't know what you experience? Are there studies being done somewhere that explain what you're doing right now about what you're experiencing that prove you're wearing jeans and have a striped shirt on, and that you're munching on nutter butters? Of Course NOT. It's silly to assume that someone else who didn't experience what I experienced has some authority or expertise over my experience. It's not even HEARSAY! No friend, you've made up your mind before you got called.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 It's clear people only cling to the idea of an afterlife because of fear of mortality, denial of our pure biological self, and out of ignorance to the power of the human brain and imagination.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You don't fear your own mortality or if you do it's not stopping you from promoting your position. I'm just suggesting that you have NO evidence for what you're suggesting. You're only suggesting at the times when people die they secrete certain chemicals that make hallucinations possible, but in no way does that contradict eyewitness testimony of 600 million experiencers worldwide who have had the same basic experience.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "in no way does that contradict eyewitness testimony of 600 million experiencers worldwide who have had the same basic experience"
No it doesn't, I believe that they had the experiences they had.... The only difference is I believe it was the brain doing odd things it usually doesn't do on a regular basis and only under extreme circumstances, and they believed it was a door to another world because it was there brain tricking them.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 What you believe about someone else's experience is exactly what I've been describing to you about what I believe about yours. It's WORTHLESS. People who have beliefs about others experiences are never called to give eyewitness testimony. People who ARE called are the ones who EYEWITNESS the event(s) in question.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 Like I said, just because you had an experience and thought it was real doesn't mean it was. It's called hallucination, do you not even know what that means? Research it.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Just because you experience and think that it's not is what separates us. I accept what I experience as real. That's the difference between an atheist and the rest of humanity. One believes people's testimony of what they experience and the other YOU go by what you're bias dictates per selected explanations of what others experience. How many times have you testified to what you've experienced? NONE, because you're saying experiences aren't valid. Try to GET IT!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "I accept what I experience as real"
That's your first mistake. When I was high on meth for 3 days when I was 19 I started to hear voices in my head (they were auditory hallucinations) and I believed they were real at the time and started accusing my friends of wispering behind my back when they weren't. You can't believe everything you experience, like I said, you are IGNORANT to the power of the brain and the things your mind can conjure up in odd situations.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED WAS REAL! Just because you were hallucinating doesn't mean you weren't experiencing. Good grief dude you're just saying what I am now. You KNOW what you were experiencing. I've heard voices before. I looked around and the person whose voice I heard wasn't there and I kind of figured it out. I read three books on the brain last March. You can't interchange the word brain and mind, they're not the same thing.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "You can't interchange the word brain and mind, they're not the same thing."
The mind is not the same thing as the brain, but sight isn't the same thing as an eye either. Without the eyes there is no sight, and without the brain, there is no mind..
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Other than being dead.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Here's one way I know this experience is genuine. My friend whose videos I feature on my channel told me of another experience that people frequently have. His mother was awoken by her dad when he passed. She told her husband and then the next morning they got the news that he passed. Additionally psychokinesis has been proved. Currently the Global Consciousness Project has 90+ labs running aroung the world that prove this one phenomenon beyond a rational doubt.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "Additionally psychokinesis has been proved"
I highly doubt it, also she probably had a subconscious hunch he was going to die, had a vivid dream about it, and it it turned out to be true...Big deal, what about all the vivid dreams that people have had that that DIDN'T come true? You are bound to get a few lucky hits among a sea of misses.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Just look at the studies done by Radin & Ferrari. Consider this my friend, you're not researching anything you're telling me the way it is as though I and Vicki here were Conrad Murray giving Michael Jackson the fatal dose of propofol. The fact that you're a dyed in the wool atheist who automatically rejects all forms of evidence as they pertain to the supernatural IS NOT in the slightest apparent to YOU, but it SCREAMS prejudice to a soul like mine. 8¬ ) We're just accidents?
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "you're not researching anything"
No? Well why don't you look up the study done at the University of Kentucky about NDE's and how they can even happen while clinically dead due to REM intrusions triggers by the brain stem? There is a lot of research you can do, you just pick and chose what research you want to research lol
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 That what's known as confirmation bias. It's everything other than what people actually experience. People have left their bodies and gone into waiting rooms and overheard conversations. The first chapter of Musicophilia is about a dr. who was stuck by lightning left their body saw and recognized the OR nurse who resuscitated him, and then he gave up his lucrative practice and became a concert pianist. I've got people, you've got selective "explanations". One's empirical.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "People have left their bodies and gone into waiting rooms and overheard conversations"
You can't prove they left their bodies, you are simply going off what the person said. I already linked you to that video proving out of body experiences are explained by the brain but you ignored it.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You're just going off what people say, and not even the ones who had the experience or ones who heard about the experiences. You're going off of what people who reject what the experiencers testify to have to say about what they believe the experience is. For a 2nd time that doesn't even rise to the level of hearsay!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 " You're just going off what people say"
Actually you are, you are just going off of reports of what the person who had the experience said..
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Yes I'm biased to my experience. Plus I go by the law. God is the Creator and Supreme Ruler of the universe. Concurrent causality and conservation is required. Survival of the fittest doesn't account for the objective moral foundation that is known as law. Saying I'm biased without showing how is childish.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "God is the Creator and Supreme Ruler of the universe"
The God of Abraham is a fictional character from a book written thousands of years ago by bronze age shepherds in the dessert who didn't even know about gravity or evolution. God is just as real as Superman or Spiderman. You call me childish but you are the one who believes in fairy tales, look up the word Irony.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Now you want to argue against the bible, sorry I'm not an apologist but what I am good at is seening the differences in people's positions to the facts. Look up naturalism on wikipedia. For the 3rd time now IT"S THE BELIEF. The laws of nature are immaterial and intentional. Means are prepared in advance of ends. Intentions falsify the evolution of the human mind. < That all falsifies naturalism. Intentions have no EXTENSION in reality! Deal with it.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "For the 3rd time now IT"S THE BELIEF"
Not really. You know the natural world is real too, you get hungry, bleed, shit, piss, east, sweat and you know you are biological. The difference is you believe there is something MORE. Since you are the one claiming the additive to what we all know is true (the natural world) then the burden of proof is on you to prove that it exists.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You're informed of the phsyical world by what? If we're just material than materiality would direct our behavior, that's why evolution is a theory and not a law. The law PROVES that we have WILL, intentions, and consciousness that natural selection can't find ANY traction in. The veracity of human thought can give rise to the same behavior and that FALSIFIES naturalism and biological evolution of the mind. < 8th time!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "The veracity of human thought can give rise to the same behavior and that FALSIFIES naturalism and biological evolution of the mind"
You must not know about neuroscience, there are studies that prove that biological actions take place in your brain a certain amount of time before you become aware of it. So while you are thinking you want to open your mouth to say something, the neurons already fired off before that tricking you into thinking you made a conscious choice.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@shizzleman8
Sam Harris on The Illusion of Free Will -1/3
watch?v=dodTNPp12rg
Neuroscience and Free Will
watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM
Neuroscience and Free Will - Libet's Experiment
watch?v=IQ4nwTTmcgs
The above is evidence that conscious free will is an illusion, the experiment proves that the choice to press the right button was already biologically made before the conscious was aware that it thought it made the choice.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 To believe what you do you must first eliminate the whole of human experience in favor of selective scientists explanations. They're doing the research, creating the "God Helmet" in favor of their predisposed philosophical prejudice. That's not science it's a priori assumption. Bias. Human intentions make the natural evolution of the mind impossible. < Deal with that!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 "To believe what you do you must first eliminate the whole of human experience in favor of selective scientists explanations"
Wrong I believe in the human experience, but I believe they are just that, human experiences and not spiritual supernatural ones.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 Well I'm only 24 and it seems I am much more rational than you. I will only jump to supernatural conclusions if no natural explanations can account for something, you on the other hand will just jump to the supernatural conclusions and ignore all rational explanations. The only one with bias here is you my friend.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You're not jumping anywhere. You're fixed on one position that's because you're only 24 and have never tried a case in a court of law before. I have. It's easy to be right when it's only you who decides. God is judicially and legislatively noticed. Murder is not natural it's an unnatural cause of death. Naturalism is a BELIEF. You can't prove my motive, but I've proven yours in everything you write. You just want to be right, but you don't have ANY evidence. NO EXPERIENCE
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 I'm not fixed on one position, I would gladly accept the supernatural explanation if no natural explanation could account for it, but countless do. You on the other hand reject all evidence of natural explanations, all studies and proof that out of body experiences are just due to the brain and refuse to let go of your fairy tale supernatural mother goose explanations. I feel weird telling a 50 year old this, but maybe you should grow up.. Just a thought.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 I've given you dozens now. You only SAY they're not evidence because you're prejudiced to your position. Is it possible that any evidence can prove God and the Supernatural to you? Of course none exists for you. No matter what I suggest or say is a fact like PSYCHOKINESIS you AUTOMATICALLY REJECTED IT. I DOUBT THAT'S TRUE!!! I could give you evidence all day long (I'm an EXPERT AT IT), and for you it will never be evidence. JUDICIAL NOTICE IS EVIDENCE.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
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@shizzleman8 " Is it possible that any evidence can prove God and the Supernatural to you?"
Yes, there is already an experiment being done where there are numbers written on the top of cabinets in a hospitals so if people have an out of body NDE and they see the room in detail like many report doing, they should know the numbers. Countless people have had NDE's since in the hospital since the numbers were set up, not ONE person recalled seeing the whole room in detail saw the numbers.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 There was also a study done where they proved that prayers have absolutely no effect on results. There are tons of ways to run experiments to prove the supernatural exists, the problem is all of them fail and there is not a shred of evidence for the supernatural.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 Yes, I know what hallucinations are. I can testify to them. I've experienced them, and I've experienced my soul on the outside of my body and they're not the same experience. There's not a shred of evidence for you because you deny all the evidence before you began. Why make up your mind before even investigating? Why make up your mind after investigating? Maybe some new information may come to light. Why do you? Because you're PREJUDICED. You want to be right at all costs.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "Why make up your mind before even investigating?"
I didn't, I investigated and came to the conclusion that there are natural explanations for these things so it makes sense to stick with those before jumping to supernatural explanations. You should ALWAYS except the natural explanation and ONLY jump to supernatural explanations if nothing else could explain it. This never happens, deeming the supernatural an unlikely hypothesis.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You should just always keep an open mind. You obviously haven't. Have you read David Chalmers The Conscious Mind?
I'm getting tired, and you haven't even answered a single question. You don't believe in experience and I do. Peace.
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@shizzleman8 "You should just always keep an open mind. You obviously haven't. "
It's OK to be open minded but not so open that your brains fall out, its clear which side of the fence you are on. Peace.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
In My life,I used to have faith, but after I had the greatest expiriance one night 20 years ago, I now have a Knowing.
brad060498 1 month ago
@brad060498 30 years ago for me. I was touched by the Exorcist Barbara Purcell of the Cornerstone Chruch in Downey. My soul rose up out of my body in 1999. What Barbara did for people was a demonstration of the power of God. What an amazing gift. Please tell us more about your experience. All of life is one big experience for the faithful.
shizzleman8 1 month ago
Here's a brain that was not able to process visual images and suddenly after the near death experience was able to do it. Is it still fake? Why can't these people accept the fact that God is real and after death we will see God? Anyway, this thing will happen to everybody and I hope that at that time in your lives - guys who don't believe - you can still come back and testify that what happened is true and that Jesus Christ is real.
paulinelapaz 1 month ago 3
@paulinelapaz The majority of people, nearly all, don't have religious or religious specific experiences. It's AWEFUL SPIRITUAL. There's no judgement. People who have this experience come back more loving and experienced changed lives because of the awesomeness of the love they feel. Did you know hell isn't a word in the Hebrew language? Hell is improperly translated for the words Hades, Sheol and Gehenna.
Jesus is a Hebrew Rabbi. Shalom.
shizzleman8 1 month ago
@paulinelapaz ::: Yes, God is real. But we will never 'see' him as we see another person because he does not have that form. Whether Jesus is real or not does not matter because the Creator is, and that is all that matters. It will be a wonderful life when we get over there.
k0smon 1 week ago
@k0smon You have no evidence to support that claim.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ :::What claim are you referring to?
k0smon 1 week ago
@k0smon To the only one you made: God is real. You find a poor excuse and mention that he is in another form, and that's why we can't see him. How convenient! You have no evidence to back up this ridiculous claim. As you know, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ ::: The existence of God is not an extraordinary claim. It is a very common claim. No one can 'prove' God, nor can they 'disprove' Him. It is not a ridiculous claim, there are probably more people that believe in God than not. As a skeptic, there is no reason nor evidence available that will convince you. Most people are more rational than that, realizing that 'something' does not come from 'nothing'.
k0smon 1 week ago
@k0smon Excellent display of fallacious arguments.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@MihaZ ::: Two mainstays of skepticism : Denial and name-calling. Of course you deny God, and of course you use name-calling : "fallacious arguments". You ran out of steam quite early. Happy skepticism !!
k0smon 1 week ago
@k0smon I don't have to deny a statement for which there is no evidence. I wonder if you have any academic background. As you know, when flagged as such, a fallacious argument means that your idea/reasoning is incorrect. If you want me to point out the numerous logical flaws in your reasoning,I don't mind. In any case, you sure are good at calling me names as if it had anything to do with the topic itself.
MihaZ 1 week ago
It's always the guy who won't take the paternity or polygraph test.
( ;8~D)
shizzleman8 2 months ago
They're referred to as no-body murder trials and convictions. No body, no physical or forensic evidence of any kind. It's impossible for an atheist or a naturalist to wrap their mind around. That's why you don't have a job, and I'm doing this because I'm bored.
shizzleman8 2 months ago
You're just telling me YOUR story about what you think proof, anecdote, testimony, and evidence are. No authoritative case references? Then you're giving me bullshit. Thanks, but I'm all stocked up here.
shizzleman8 2 months ago
Because dying people's testimonials are a great source for science.
MrSander353 2 months ago
Fake.
finalcloud13 2 months ago
@finalcloud13 if u want to disprove, u have to tell why also
punkunite123 2 months ago
@punkunite123 Nah I don't want to disprove it's not necessary. However anyone that wants to pass this as true do necessarily need to prove it, and this isn't proof.
finalcloud13 2 months ago
@finalcloud13 Direct evidence is first hand testimony from the person who experienced something. This is not only proof/evidence, it's also very convincing. You can google this and find a person who gives Vicki's last name. This is one of the more oft looked at NDEs like Pam Reynolds. She's gone now but her testimony still stands.
shizzleman8 2 months ago
@shizzleman8 No anecdote is proof. If it counted as proof, there would be a LOT of innocent people locked up in prison. Proof is empirical or something that can be derived through the laws of logic.
finalcloud13 2 months ago
@finalcloud13 Vicki Umipeg is ATTESTING to her experience. An anecdote means: 1.A short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person. 2.An account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.
Hearsay as a general rule is not admissible. There are however 30 EXCEPTIONS to the rule. Vicki is the person who had the experience her testifying is the only relevant one other than the doctors and nurses at Harbor View. You can write the words "laws of logic" don't mean you have any. 8)
shizzleman8 2 months ago
@shizzleman8 Merriam-Webster definition:
Anedcote: a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident
Lol.
Girl says she was raped by Kobe Bryant. Her friends say he did too. No evidence that this happened other than their words against his. Understand that testimony, and "attesting" (lol, HUGE difference from anecdote), are good for nothing by themselves. You need more.
Also nice try with the laws of logic comment, it was almost clever.
finalcloud13 2 months ago
@finalcloud13 Not as clever as knowing the difference between a story & narrative account or the difference between a first person auto-biography and a SECOND hand (hearsay) account known as a biography. JK Rawlings tells stories. The difference is that in a court of law you offer perjured testimony you subject yourself upto 5 years in prison (felony).
By your own admission your "words" are worth nothing. Boo-YAH! I get paid a lot of money for my opinion. Science at it's best/Prediction
shizzleman8 2 months ago
@shizzleman8 So tell me what you'd do in the Kobe case? Assuming one of them is lying but you don't know who. Don't worry, you don't have to answer because I already know. And it doesn't have to do with more testimony, first or anyhand.
finalcloud13 2 months ago
@finalcloud13 You look for the precedent. Did Mike Tyson rape some bitch-whore? What about Rothlesburger? Yep, that's my guess. Kobe? You betcha. Did OJ Simpson murder his wife and Ron Goldman in a jealous rage and leave his blood at the crime scene and then all the way back to his rockingham estate? Of course. He didn't even OWN a pair of Bruno Magli's until the civil trial then he made himself a sandwich like Judas Iscariot and split out the back until he was caught robbing in Las Vegas.
shizzleman8 2 months ago
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@shizzleman8 Thank you for proving my point. You just gave an example of something more than testimony.
finalcloud13 2 months ago
@finalcloud13 how could u prove if this is true or not then? this is a subjective experience... no science in the world will prove this cos science is objective which leads eventually again to subjectivism. people can lie indeed, but u'll find out when u experience urself.
punkunite123 2 months ago
Glad she went to heaven instead of hell....
TimpBizkit 2 months ago
y was she driving a car
thejewishagnostic 2 months ago
@ LarryLynx ... also, you don't see things you never have seen, even when stimulating the visual cortex, but you already know this correct? Comon' be honest.
vrartist 2 months ago
@ LarryLynx ... just hang on brother, you will find out about the afterlife eventually, we all do. ;-) peace and love to you.
vrartist 2 months ago
Blind people have a visual cortex, just as us. It can be stimulated. Also, google Dr. James Winnery's NDE and read the first hit. I am sorry guys :(
LarryLynx 2 months ago
@ZangaroZen I'm going to take that last option with the exception that I have no desire to "bugger". This is subject matter that I'm interested in, the scinece of near death experience, not buggering. I don't even know what that word means and I don't want to. You use a lot of language that I'm not exposed to in my normal routine of living and I'd like to keep it that way.
shizzleman8 3 months ago
These cases are so important. I cant stress that enough, and no scientist can explain what is happening because it is beyond there knowledge and understanding, but i am sure some one out there will come out with some bullshit.
AMAZING.
thegroove2000 3 months ago 12
@thegroove2000
Science is only a narrow band of frequence to understand the reality. But I respect science in its process to test validate, reject, remodel a theory. There will always be believer and skeptics. Some still think the earth is flat, right? We all have out of body experience, and that is called dream. I feel so much better understanding that our essence is eternal out of fear based reality.
scivanpoon 3 months ago
@scivanpoon A dream is not a out of body experience. A real OBE its the separation of consciousness from the carrier vessel IE the body. Yes i agree, it feels soo good knowing that our energy carries on after we leave this dimension.
thegroove2000 3 months ago
@thegroove2000
Yes, it feel good because it felt bad as fear is educated to us since birth
Yes, it wasn't until you wake up inside a dream and realised you are dreaming.
To me, all we are doing are dreaming/creating/imaginating before aware of that the reality is also a dream(Deception, dream within dream within dream, and fractual universe).
Namaste!
scivanpoon 3 months ago
@scivanpoon It's not a dream. People experience reality when they leave their bodies. The first chapter of Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks relays a true account of an orthopedic surgeon who was struck by lightning and witnessed the nurse who resuscitated him from outside of his body. He then went on to give up his medical practice and became a famous classical conert pianist. There are 500 million of these cases. People frozen, struck by lightning/electricty all experienced heaven while DEAD
shizzleman8 3 months ago
@shizzleman8
Yes, there are cases of OBEs. I know there are clear distintion if clearly define the defination of OBEs, dream or astral travel. To me they are very close so I group them under a similar mystical experience. They are real, because the only thing we can prove real is our experience to ourselves!
scivanpoon 3 months ago
@scivanpoon I thought you were a YT user who I had conversed with before, but they were using dreams and dream states to dismiss all supernatural phenomena.
The law proves everything. Try reading the Federal Rules of Evidence. I'd also suggest: lists of logical fallacies, and lists of common courtroom objections. I'm constantly surrounded by the world's greatest attorneys because of money. My boss for instance as JAG never lost a case in 24 years as a prosecutor and defense attorney! Peace
shizzleman8 3 months ago
@shizzleman8
As internet evolve faster then any control machanism imposed by the ruling class, ppl will share their idea, experience, evidence, thought more freely and, less subjected to model religion of "Money" or "Science" or of any opinion from the mass media. Human can evolve faster and revert back into the light. I hope internet can evolve even faster to the point of no return(at least for another 10,000yr) so we can enjoy this shift in consciouness and begin to ask "Who am I", as a race.
scivanpoon 3 months ago
@thegroove2000 u're right, we're living in a meterial world which is objective and so scientists research the objective but if we go to the extreme, even the most objective is subjective in a way. so the only way to understand is direct observation of ourselves, what do u feel, think, know, ... when u are doing ... if we find out a little truth, it's cos of our experiences, not other's, and deffenetly no scientific tests.
punkunite123 2 months ago
@punkunite123 Thanks.
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 NDE are very well documented by psychologists. You can't excuse your ignorance forever by accusing scientists of bullshit if you don't even bother to read science journals.
MihaZ 2 months ago
@MihaZ psychologists are not scientists dimwit.
thegroove2000 2 months ago
@thegroove2000 Of course they are. I'm not talking about psychotherapists, but scientists who study the human brain, its functions and how it affects perceptions and behavior. If you are to display your ignorance in public, at least try not to be rude to others.
MihaZ 2 months ago
@MihaZ Thanks for the reply, and remember that scientists, do not hold the answers to everything. They are as we are, mere infants of knowledge when it comes to the mysteries of then universe.
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 Of course not, science is a rationnal process to obtain knowledge. It ajusts its views based of what observed, unlike religions who claim absolute knowledge and don't feel embarassed when they don't provide any evidence. Modern cosmology is indeed a young science, thanks to religious repression during hundreds of years. However, we never had a better understanding of nature than we do now.
MihaZ 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 Here's an easy way to remember. Science means knowing or knowledge, or a branch of knowledge. Psychology is a science it's a "human" science not a natural science. This is actually a medical science and it's covered by religion/theology as well. His comment above he's talking about neuroscience. The thing with all scientists is their "science" all falls along philosophical lines. More like position/stance and confirmation bias. Why doesn't anyone ever admit when they're wrong?
shizzleman8 1 month ago
@shizzleman8 Thats right i agree with you. What an interesting thread.
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 You're welcome. I find great fulfillment in relationships from these testimonies. What a way to minister hope, faith and love to a dying and lost world.
Be the LOVE!
shizzleman8 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 I was talking about scientists, and psychologists study the mind and not beyond, as they can only go with what science has to offer.
thanks for the intelligent reply.
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 :::There are credible accounts of life after death for 150 years. Scientists such as Melvin Morse MD, Kubler Ross, Raymond Moody studied these types of cases for years and concluded they are the real thing. The only bullshit associated with this phenomena is that which is between the ears of those who have their heads firmly in the sand and deny, deny, deny. The reality of life after death is AMAZING.
k0smon 1 month ago
@k0smon I am doing lots of research into remote viewing also, and i am convinced that there are 2 parts to the human race IE the body and the consciousness.
We are mere infants of knowledge.
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 ::: Yes, we are body and spirit, the spirit has the mind. Remote viewing is probably the same as an OOB experience, only directed.
k0smon 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 The only bullshit is believing the mind can survive longer than brain, that's like believing your car can travel for more time than the motor is running..
Blind people can see during these experiences because if you spend a whole life touching things then it's not hard to imagine shapes in great detail. If I put in a cube in your hand and you feel it, then you will imagine the straight lines and shapes in your head without ever actually seeing it.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@theBartone9119
the problem is she said she saw them, she didnt say she put her hand over them and then saw them, what you said about touching the cube is not comparable to what she described, what she describes cannot be explained by your petty naturalistic examples and explainations, i hope all people will come to the truth of god and stop scoffing, and i hope that even if you dont agree with me that you dont resent me, i just want you to hear what i think about it, please seek god
emporroll 1 week ago
@emporroll You are not getting the point, if you are blind and spend your whole life feeling objects then you can imagine shapes of things in great detail during these experiences and envision objects in the mind based of previous touching of objects. What's petty is thinking consciousness can survive longer than the brain, that's like saying a car can travel for more time than the engine is working in it. Also, why would I seek something I don't believe exists? That's like trying to seek Santa.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@emporroll The truth is you are a biological creature who evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes and when 100% of your brain stops working at death your consciousness is no more. It's not my fault if you want to deny reality.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
@emporroll What about the NDE where a woman said she left her body and saw the doctors were laughing and putting foreign objects into her? She tried to sue the doctor and lost because all witnesses disagreed with her and X-rays showed there was nothing in her body. As the brain dies it creates some crazy out of body images, this in no way shape or form indicates a spiritual world, it just means someone is experiencing hallucinations.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
@emporroll Unless there is a way to prove that the person recalling the experience was recalling an experience that took place as the brain was dead and not an experience that took place as the brain was dying, then people reporting experiences after brain death isn't really too convincing of something supernatural.
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
@emporroll Also look into CIA remote viewing experiments.
Peace fellow human.
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@theBartone9119 You have obviously not gone deep into this fascinating subject. This lady, is just one of many blind people who have experienced this.
Have you studied remote viewing?
thegroove2000 1 week ago
@thegroove2000 I have studied remote viewing, It's BS.
Michael Shermer Remote Viewing Experiment Part 1
watch?v=40QVp8_P0LY
Michael Shermer Remote Viewing Experiment Part 1
watch?v=QY4MTKa2ldI
Michael Shermer did a good job debunking the claims about remote viewing.
Also blind people have their own type of vision where they imagine shapes based off of what they have touched so it's not so impressive that a blind person "saw" during an NDE.
Logic and reason > Fantasy
theBartone9119 1 week ago
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theBartone9119 1 week ago
19 people are beyond blind.
thegroove2000 3 months ago
Everything she said is absolutely true. For more information about this subject you can Google (NDE). There are thousands of cases describing very much similar experiences by different people from different religions and cultural background. According to many surgeons there are 800 cases occurs every single day in the USA alone. It is real, but there are individuals who are using this NDE subject to sell their religions. Death on earth is the beginning of the real free life.
MainPolar 3 months ago 10
@MainPolar Death to live free? What kind of sick bronze age mentality is that?
MihaZ 1 month ago
@MainPolar PEOPLE HAVE THE SAME EXACT THING HAPPEN TO THEM IN CENTRIFUGE TESTS (THE SPINNING BALL ON AN ARM THAT THEY USE FOR JET TEST PILOTS TO TEST G'S) THEY SEE EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS ITS ALL A NATURAL THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE WHEN ENOUGH BLOOD DRAINS FROM THEIR BRAINS AND THE BLACK OUT. THERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT ITS ALL FAKE.
OF COURSE THE BRAIN IS GOING TO FREAK OUT WHEN IT THINKS YOUR ABOUT TO DIE.
LOOK UP PEN AND TELLERS EPISODE ABOUT LIFE AFTER DEATH.
VirusOfCyrus 1 month ago
@VirusOfCyrus Let's say for a second it is just a natural thing. I'd expect the experiences to be massivley varied in that case. Rather, we have the same kind of general things occuring - people looking down at their body, people seeing a bright light, people seeing loved ones, people seeing religous figures, etc. I don't think any natural phenomenon can cause people all around the world to experience the SAME kind of "hallucinations" or whatever scientists chalk it off as to the extent they do.
TheAvidGamer91 1 month ago