experts speak on Landmark Forum

[bucanero111]

Mr. Bradbavarde your comments are misleading and uninformative. Why is it wrong for a human being to explore his/her own potential? What are you afriad of?

[bradbavarde]

@bucanero111 Your comment really is strange to me. Of course it is great for someone to explore his or her own potential. The point of these videos is to show the danger if this is done in the wrong cotext or through the control of the wrong people. Everyone who is healthy should be afraid of that.

[TheRightousCause]

bradbavarde I am sorry that you choose to see what you want to see in LE. My experience is an example of what's possible. I am not depressed anymore and have more to live for than ever. I highly recommend LE to people struggling with life and happiness. I don't recommend LE to everyone, some people are already successful and happy. If you are looking to improve your life then this is one system that worked for me and I am very grateful to have been introduced to it.

[SmrutiR]

The Landmark Forum, did helped me at one time o get out of a messy situation at one time, that was good enough. The mistake I did was, I went ahead with another course, and went little further to assist there. Then I was completely under their spell. Now when I look back now, I see that the damages to my life are huge than the little feel good I got at Forum, I was trap in that expecting more.

[nickfossy]

i have just completed the forum.... it is one of the most perculiar states of mind i have had. I was ellated last night and even signed up for teh next course ( i paid but am now deciding not to attend $600 lost).i spent the morning doing background research which has caused me great concern. I am thankful for the strength i gained and conversations i had whilst attending the forum but for the weak willed you could get sucked in by its cult like atmsophere. Please be very very very cautious.

[nickfossy]

i have just completed the forum.... it is one of the most perculiar states of mind i have had. I was ellated last night and even signed up for teh next course ( i paid but am now deciding not to attend $600 lost).i spent the morning doing background research which has caused me great concern. I am thankful for the strength i gained and conversations i had whilst attending the forum but for the weak willed you could get sucked in by its cult like atmsophere. Please be very very very cautious.

[waxcarrot1981]

Call and ask for your money back. They will give it back to you and HAVE to legally.

[indigolvr11]

So, I am just wondering.....I have just heard about the Landmark Forum recently and I was looking into going to a meeting. I was under the impression that it was similar to Dale Carnigie, which is a very reputable. How is LM different and what about it makes people think it's a cult? Would love to hear some valid feedback.

[standinginnothing]

@indigolvr11 I have participated in Dale Carnegie and in the LF. What makes people think it is a cult is that extraordinary results are produced in a relatively short space of time. It is different to Dale Carnegie in that you are not left with a list of things to do and not to do. Instead you are empowered by what is distinguished and so it flows from you. It is not a place to get to, it becomes a place to come from. You are not trying to do instead doing flows from who you are being.

[JustBusiness17]

@indigolvr11 From reading Carnegie, I would say the primary difference is compliance. Carnegie preaches critical thinking and sound judgment. Landmark seems to wear people down into their way of thinking.

[VioletClub]

Yeah, people "get very happy" about Scientology also.

Hey, I had a very close friend cease communications with me because I called LE a cult. Nice.

[dips3t20]

Breaking you down, building you up to give them more money while using self-help as the scapegoat to hide it. I should start my own cult.

[gurutruth]

It is interesting all the brainwashed zombies that show up at these comment threads and artificially make it seem that there are more individuals that support this controversial company. This is called astroturfing.

[marktywharton]

Don't 85,000 people complete the forum every year - I have watched all your videos and they don't give any huge insights into Landmark per se, it seems to me you are right in YOUR OWN stuff and enrolling others in your WF (which is great by the way). So when are you going to get off it LOL

[transfixedtornado]

I wouldn't really believe it, but everytime you post a comment of critical content about Landmark, some people obviously put massive negative votes on it.

It's great that you managed to disable the voting on the comments.

[kitten1g]

Landmark is a scam, each course is a sales pitch for the next course where they promise your the 'real' results and finally you pay enough money for the privilege of working for free all weekend long + weeknights calling people up trying to get them to enroll in this 'great education'

They tell you the measure of how successful you are in life is by how many people you enroll in Landmark. But please dont take a bathroom break on their schedule, the leader knows best when you should pee

[transfixedtornado]

imho the French documentary has a little bit of a wrong handle on things- I do not sympathize with the "shaky camera footage+scary music cue" dramaturgy.

That being said- especially the section on volunteering (the LE"assist program") reveals a core problem with LE: While you seem to be working on yourself and improving the world, on a second layer you surrender control to the Forum Leader and the intransparent organization: LE glues those firmly together, you'll be too confused to keep track

[transfixedtornado]

1 more thing - "loosing track" in LE is part of the "self improvement". In LMspeak it's "letting go of your story/being Nothing","getting over your Act" etc. - give it all up to the Forum Leader. Now, I do think there actually IS a good and useful power in that - but NOT glued into the architecture of a self-righteous American corporation created for the sake of its own survival - It's a unique mix of good and evil, a virus that grows on the trust and inspiration people are for each other.

[transfixedtornado]

I think the woman 5:50 demonstrates the temporary euphoria right after the forum well the world as an open adventure platform: Everything is ok, interesting, funny etc. Simultaneously LE's psycho-social sales strategy is at work: Every time you get yourself excited about life or make something your greatest thing ever, you will "share it" with other people and at the same time tell them how great the Forum is and how your life has "transformed" from it. Target state implemented -good job LE! :)

[imqtkd]

hi friend. I didn't know you were using my video in your video. to all reading this I am KD from the example used in this video. I was recommended landmark from a mentor of mine that does 20 million dollars per year and suggested it to me

[bradbavarde]

With respect, money is something that offers no authority for me. I would never rate success in any realm by financial capital. "What profiteth a man if he should gain the world...."

[EldonBraun]

Landmark and its sister cult Avatar are designed to get people high on brain chemicals. Both are partially derived from Scientology. These euphoric LGAT experiences may not harm most people mentally, but some mentally fragile people are thrown way off balance. It IS brainwashing, which is why Scientology is currently on trial for fraud in France..

[Susieshepherd]

I just so happened to stumble on a book 2day about cults & sensory deprivation...& it occured to me that in lanmark u were not only sleep deprived & food deprived, but oxygen deprived as well. Exercise promotes inhalation & exhalation- sitting in a chair for 12 hours I could only assume would promote...I don't know ..shallow breathing. Its common knowledge our bodies crave movement- landmark didn't give a flying fuck about that

[Susieshepherd]

Plz keep spreading the word- I did it immediately following 9/11 ..I was already confused. The person who "enrolled" me was a "friend" I had known for 15 years- who later "enrolled" three more of my "good friends". I speak to none of them now & all the ppl in my life now know nothing of "landmark"...and they are REALLY good people

[bradbavarde]

The user Midgusher/sumsuga have attempted to use the discussion as a means to discredit any form of valid criticism of LME with a personal attack on the messanger. There is some history of this user doing the same thing in the past, and I admit that I have broken his confidentiality by posting his comments here, but I need to now given the nature of the harassment he shows me and other posters. Some of the quotes will help explain his character.

[sumsuga]

Sexy guy, great eyes

[EnricCirne]

Notice the spate of comments by midgusher removed in this thread.

[bradbavarde]

Enric, yes it is lamentable that these comments seem to stray from relevance of the discussion. It is mainly a result of midgusher who I am pretty sure is sumsuga as well. I am following this comment with quotes from a correspondance he sent me last year while he was appearing as Lorrieload. It will probably explain his continued defense of Landmark, and strangely enough is preoccupation with socks.

[bradbavarde]

am 45 years old, straight and single. I did the LF when I was 18 after reading an interview with a British musical group "Shriekback and they shared in NME magazine about this EST thing they did as a group and how it helped them get unstuck as artists - that grabbed my attention.

after doing it over the years I have just watched myself and others around me who eventually did it contribute more love more be free more and play more in life . What can I say Brado, it knocked my socks off!

[bradbavarde]

This person obviously found fufillment at Landmark. IMO his objectivity about any criticism is out the window. Unlike most people who support LM and disagree and walk away, he seems to view each video as a personal attack. To me, it says a lot. For some reason, he seems to signal me out from all other LM critics to attack. Here are some more quotes from past messages:

[bradbavarde]

"HAVE you seen Lars Opera videos? Now that is FOR something IMO, with no slander gossip ..and there are very few comments. I think you are actually using LE in an evil selfish way Brad. It is about someone else....an easy target where you get to be the good guy and LE is vilified and portrayed as the bad guy all the while keeping you at the center of an emotional tempest you create using gossip and slander"

[bradbavarde]

"That is not to say that many of your comments are not valid. I just thinking smearing others in public forums, is counter productive, almost a form of terrorism, Sorry to use such a strong word but that is how i see it."

[bradbavarde]

More on his LM experience "I am glad people are making businesses that are about you and about people....I and not just about coke cola or McDonalds or Ipods and all that tech bullshit! It did not work for you, that I totally understand because you said it did not and that is good enough for me but millions of people are lining up to do the landmark forum and the world will be a better place for it...I have the evidence all around me.

[bradbavarde]

.....Landmark is trying to contribute. Time will tell if they failed and were ultimately more harmful then useful. So far, the evidence is that they are doing fantastic.

[sumsuga]

"she's really exicted...... you can see how her tone is.....transformation, breakthrough.....forever......­"

"so um I'll put another video on with some more examples of evidence"

yup that's some great footage right there bud, using some 23 year old girl for your evidence....evidence of what exactly? That you know how to use people?

oh that's right silly me.....you are helping the victims. LMFAO!!!!!!!

[EnricCirne]

The videos show irrational claims of terms used like "transformation". It's evidence to the expert claim on brainwashing.

[sumsuga]

So now she is irrational for using the word transformation according to the experts on brainwashing.

I'm done.....you people are utterly absurd.

[EnricCirne]

What's shown is a pattern of people using the same terms like "transformation" as an ultimate goal, necessary goal.

[sumsuga]

HEY, I'm busy Just smokin a Marlboro 100........

[EnricCirne]

Since posters like midgusher delete their posts afterwards, I'll be repeating them.

midgusher states: "EnricCirne is a bradbavarde ~apologist~ and is resorting to ~personal attacks~ and has been banned from You Tube by Brad's ~door monitor~."

midgusher writing only values whether someone agrees or disagrees with Landmark, rather than addressing the issues presented in the video.

[sumsuga]

again the issue is Brad's use of other people videos with out their permission. Or maybe copyright infringment is not a big deal to you?

[EnricCirne]

sumsuga says: "again the issue is Brad's use of other people videos with out their permission. Or maybe copyright infringment is not a big deal to you?"

What is the copyright on videos posted on YouTube? What is the Fair Use Doctrine?

[sumsuga]

hey no worries, you guys just keep on using young girls for you evidence.....speaks volumes!!!!!

[EnricCirne]

More irrelevant claims that don't address the analysis of these videos.

[EnricCirne]

What is relevant is the ideas expressed in the video and their accuracy. Midgusher claims on "oui4soxs" are not related.

[EnricCirne]

What midgusher is demonstrating in this post is lack of respect of readers intelligence and time by rewording my post with an irrelevant claim.

[EnricCirne]

What's lacking in posters sumsuga and midgusher writing is not addressing the content of this and the subsequent video. This video begins by stating that LE is not the best or most healthy way to gain self knowledge, communication skills and other LE claims for results. Then goes on to evidence that by expert statement on brainwashing compared to LE participant video testimonials. The comments don't address whether this is true or not or offer other evidence.

[sumsuga]

The content of the subsequent video, that is what you would like addressed? Okie Dokie, brad is a whiney little jack-ass who uses other people's videos to further his agenda of making himself feel good and validated. How's that?

[EnricCirne]

Sumsuga's post isn't addressing the content of the video: it's claims and evidence. But, making a claim of bradbavarde character soley based on his views of LE. As if someone is good when they positive things about Landmark programs and bad if they say critical things about Landmark.

[sumsuga]

It's not? news to me dude. The video is question is all about brad and his ridiculous LOOK AT ME!!!!! I am doing my duty helping people!!!! attitude. When what he is really doing is maligning and using other YT posters who happen to have a different view point. Most intelligent readers and viewer can see through it.

[EnricCirne]

sumsuga says: "It's not? news to me dude. The video is question is all about brad and his ridiculous LOOK AT ME!!!!!..."

So anyone who criticizes positive testimonials is self-centered and not worth discussing the ideas and proof they offer. While anyone who says positive things is "great!"

[sumsuga]

So, what about it Brad? Can we have some tea too in addition to the coffee? and maybe a plate of shrimp to snack on?

[bradbavarde]

Really believable source of information! LOL thanks for proving your point and representation of Landmark intergrity to the world.

[sumsuga]

Just coffee? What about those of us that prefer tea?

[MikeLight555]

Keep up the good work....I love when people expose scams....especially such a old one as this....everyone is looking for the magic bullet

[stopstupidbeliefs]

I'd like to echo these comments, and also to add that as someone who was looking for a more balanced opinion on the Landmark Forum, your videos helped immensely and also led me to lots of other sources of information. Keep up the good work and never let the brainwashed Landmark drones get to you.

[bradbavarde]

Don't worry about that. Here is a sampling of a comment that was posted by "Mudgusher" and then removed. I guess he was afraid his vile rantings may taint his crediability as a Forum Graduate.

[bradbavarde]

And my living "in California" and anything I did or did not do "as an adolescent." is none of your ******* business you puff. You are so anxious to invade and manipulate people bradbavarde. It is astonishing that you dare to point the finger at anybody. Who is worse than you? No one comes close to being an intentional threat to others as you and Dr. Queer boilface. You no brains think you are the official spokepeople for some imaginary victim planet. Hurry up and die ok of old age ok?

[PsychDoctorate]

The gentleman (cough) refering to himself as midgusher sent me two private messages. One making a bigoted and sarcastic remark regarding our sexual orientation, I had a one word response for him *bigot*. The other implying that we were victimizing those people whom Brad is showing in his videos. He said he spoke with them directly, I highly doubt this. It also calls into question this mans rationale.

[bradbavarde]

Mudgusher, (who by the way keeps removing his cowardly comments) is the same ugly person who posts under a variety of usernames. His most stable handle to date is personmeant. I believe he lives in California and did the EST training as an adolescent. The guy is obviously damaged from the experience. Thanks for your support PsychDoctorate

[sumsuga]

Not really surprised by this, you seem to relish in exposing personal information and using people for your own agenda.

*ring*

*ring*

*clue phone*

the only damaged people on this thread are you and the good doctor. How's the hypo-mania treating you? Jeffery let you down softly yet? LMFAO!

[bradbavarde]

See your above quote in reference to nice, Ziggy/personmeant/sumsuga/etc.­etc.

Why don't you stay with one handle?

[PsychDoctorate]

I went to midgushers profile and looked the comments he made. They are quite sophistric, a common trademark of those who come through LE and try to discredit any criticism by vilfying the messenger. His analogy of Brad to that of Hitler is very weak.  Additionally, he is not going at the argument, he is going at the messenger, a full attack of character. I have similar responses on my own youtub videos about LE, EST, Werner Erhard and others.

[bradbavarde]

Midgusher, If you really think that what these videos represent is akin to the action of Hitler and the Nazis, I suggest that you are seriously in a state of dellusional paranoia. I hope you can get the necessary treatment that will help you to celebrate life from a vantage point that acknowledges room for all degrees of opinion without feeling so scared and threatened. If you listened, I said that Landmark is not bad for some. You can't even do that.

[bradbavarde]

Mudgusher, the comment was left by a viewer on another video of mine. Despite how vile you think I am, if I can help anyone avoid any negative consequences of the Forum, I feel quite justified. How can you argue when others have written of stories like this?

[bradbavarde]

Mudgusher "Unfortunately Landmark Education / 'The Forum' is an intensive brain washing exercise -- I am a Forum survivor and I warn others to be very careful not to get drawn in to this... there are mass conversion techniques involved here that people when placed under Landmark conditions can be easily influenced. Stay away and be wary of any friends who have experienced LME and just cant wait to get you involved too its all quite sad that this is going on and families are severely impacted"

[bradbavarde]

I am sorry that I offend you, and as I said, I mean no disrespect to the people. However, I do think this is of value and interest to talk about, if nothing more than the power of Large Group Training. I have not lost touch with people, I think this is a vehicle to do the opposite. If you feel otherwise, there are plenty of other videos to support your feelings as well.