I enjoyed this. I really wish i hadn't been so badly beaten in the PR world. The reasoning behind niggerphobia is the exact reasoning behind any superstitious onomotaphobia. There is in fact something to gain from niggering, and i think that we ought to pick up specifically the banner of nigger until the deeper reasoning behind this taboo is exposed. I think that the same principles of reasoning are revealed in this debate as in the a/theist debates...
@WorthlessLoser8 Yeh. The problem I think is with the novelty and the gargantuan task of what it is you're trying to do. Both those things make it so easy to demonise and so difficult to defend.
I tend to agree with Thunderfoot that Youtube has become a few large subbed accounts and a few low view Video makers, The Middle Class is disappearing on Youtube. Atheists need something to push against and Theist Video makers are disappearing as well. Youtube not having a category for Religious or Theology Videos has also hurt.
Just discovered your video and your channel, probably a bit too late. Listened to your speech, it was interesting, you got my ears. But the problem is, I am one of Thunderfoot's subscribers, and I don't see what he does wrong with his treatment of Islam. I myself was quite disappointed to see that split of the atheist community caused by Tfoot's and Patcondell's views. May you can briefly explain what is wrong with their positition towards Islam. I personally think it is sound and justified.
@saamohod OK well speaking only for myself, my problem with TF and Pat is that they paint ALL Muslims with the same brush. Being Muslim is all they need to know about someone to judge them. When distinguishing between moderates and extremists they do so only to suggest that the moderates support the extremists through the obviously false claim that no moderates speak out against the extremists.
@saamohod They also try to strawman us by saying that we're afraid of them and/or think Islam should be given special treatment. If they criticised Islam the same way they criticised Christianity by attacking its claims instead of its adherents, we wouldn't have a problem with them. A religion can inspire people to do both good and bad depending on which passages you cherrypick, which is a criticism of all major religions.
@Orygyn I'm really reluctant to argue with another atheist, just wanna add a couple of words. Maybe Muslims are more often attacked personally for the reason that they PERSONALLY do things that Christians don't do for centuries, despite being commanded from the Bible (like all those killings, stoning and raping). And any criticism of Quran and Mohammed they take personally anyway, as a personal insult.
@saamohod The first thing I'd say is please do argue with other atheists. If we really do champion logic and reason then criticism is how we refine our ideas. As for the meat of the issue, the problem I have with what you're saying is that you're making the same generalisations. "Muslims" don't do any of the things you described, PEOPLE do. Some of these people share the religious belief system of Islam, but not all, and not all Muslims do what you described.
@Orygyn As well as the fact that one cannot afford being diplomatic and even reasonable in their criticism of Islam. Muslims just take it as a weakness and act more offensively. Their culture is quite different from Western mainstream culture. Theirs is a culture of bullying and suppression. Yesterday the three top news in Wikipedia were three bombings. As you may have guessed, all of them are connected to Islam. Therefore I think Muslims and Christians deserve different treatment.
@saamohod It's not about diplomacy, but accuracy in our descriptions of Muslim actions. Any less "civilised" behaviour or terrorist leanings coming from the middle east has a far more complex explanation than just that of religion, one that I'd need probably a few videos to begin to describe.
I've had my fix of Skyrim for a few days (recovering addict). I wanted to come back and talk about a larger problem; finding people on YouTube.
I think we *all* need to agree on a single (preferably nonsense) word to put into the tags of every video concerning religious polemics.
Type in the word "varp" (or other such word) in YouTube search, and (hopefully if the idea catches on) videos from big & small users alike (who use the tag) pop up. We need to game YouTube to stay connected.
As I wrote before, I'm not a fan of atheist cliques, but if it were for the purpose of keeping religious discussion on YouTube accessible & vibrant, I would concede that the users with the most subscribers need to be the ones to get the ball rolling, and the only group I know of that is active on YouTube is the "League of Reason" (agreement/disagreement with their positions/members aside).
This is just an idea off the top of my head and I'm not sure it's feasible. Just a thought.
My position as an atheist is to leave alone those who have faith but don't judge and concentrate on the those who push theology into education and public policy. We will never convert the masses, but when the fundamental theist cross the line to where their belief has a tangible effect on all people, we may perhaps draw a divide between the genuinely harmful fundamentalist and the marginally faithful who may help us reach our goal. That should be a fully open secular and reasonable society.
Maybe ask yourselves why you need to control the minds of other people. You will just get fight or flight responses back because it is strong emotional states that drive behavior.
@Orygyn From the video: "The problems that we talked about are still there. The atheists are still being marginalized. What do we do?"
Trying to radically change other people's values, beliefs and perspective is very difficult. They will either fight back or ignore the messages. Some people may move a little at a time...It's a process.
Reason is made from logic AND emotion. To just forgo an emotional component in your argument, it's almost like forgoing a part of yourself in that argument. Maybe I'm not being clear but I think that you said it best: You need to care about your argument.
Ultimately, having tons of well researched papers and arguments wont do anything. When push comes to shove you need to fight back but in a good way. With reason :)
@Tommerman89 Exactly. This is something I've wanted to touch on for some time, something on which I still have a lot to say and hope I'll have an opportunity to say in a video sometime soon.
Sorry; YT atheists all seem like very nice people, don't get me wrong, but I'm not a part of the "YT Athiest Community" and have zero desire to be.
I thoroughly enjoy videos on the subjects of religion, atheism and philosopy, by the myriad of users that flock here, but I'm not going to make a video about the plight of the disenfranchised peoples of X because "my atheist homies want me to". I'm just here to lurk, watch & chat.
@logicaust I certainly wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone but myself and I don't expect you or anyone else to do anything "for atheists". It's not even an approach I want to take myself, the point of the video is IF you want to resurrect the community, here are some ideas, do with them what you wish. No disrespect taken.
@Orygyn If I were to be very kind, I think that the "Athiest Community" was euthanised and has been reborn. If you trawl through the history of visible atheists on YouTube, you can condense it down to a lot of derp. Some videos were insightful, but good posters were glossed over, and psuedo-intellectuals rose to the top, on the back of a (than) controversial topic.
Even now, the "good posters", a lot of them are straight up boring, or have shown their true colours as irredeemable goofs.
Many of the people I have watched over the years I remain subscribed to simply out of loyalty, many of them bore me to tears. Some new YouTubers are interesting, but they're getting harder to find, due to various reasons.
We've all also need to recognise that there is an existing 5/6 years worth of athiest content on YT anyway; why re-invent the wheel, when there's already a perfectly good car? Not many people take that attitude, though. Anyway, I'm rambling at this point.
@logicaust I do see we what you're saying and there's very little if anything left to say on the relevant issues but as I said in the video the fundies are never going to run out of ideas because they can essentially spout the same one indefinitely: give yourselves to our god. If there's no challenge to that, any fence-sitters might realise we're not responding and imply from that that we can't and they're right. It's a bit of a dilemma.
I wish random people with internet connections would stop coming on YouTube to lap up drivel from "atheist leaders". YouTube is fun, but not the place to seriously explore enlightenment on this.
A thought: I can imagine a future where there is no religion..but suddenly a disaster! Then a "prophet" begins roaming the land, proselytizing about their deity/visions.
The sad thing is that there will always be people that will eat it up; much like the mouth breathers we see here on YT. Tibi cogita..
My experience is that the YouTube atheist community keeps repeating itself because it has nothing original to say. 'Same old hackneyed statements and/or insults, i.e. "invisible man," "spaghetti monster," zombie Christ," and the like. YouTube atheists have offered nothing but a litany of insults to theists without rationality, yet claiming to have exclusive rights to the faculty of reason. It is good that this brand of atheism is going away with its bigoted form of expression.
@Orygyn I'm sure there are many thoughtful atheists. Even so, my comment is an accurate description of all that I've experienced from atheists posting on YouTube. My thought is that The Blasphemy Challenge has to be a poor representative of reflective atheism, as is Dawkins or Condell. All such people do is spread animosity, much like a judgemental, self-righteous Christian. To these types of atheist/theists I say, "Don't go away mad, just go away."
@WinteRest49 This comment is exactly why I have never been an active member of the YT Atheist community (although as an atheist and a YouTuber, I am technically one). The reason you hold this position is because the stupidest usually speak the loudest and get the most attention. So although @Orygyn is correct, that the majority of atheists in the wider community are not how you described them, it is completely rational for you to assume we are based on the exposure you've been subjected to.
@WinterRest49 With that said however, you can trust when @Orgyn says that we are not all like what you've experienced. It's an unfortunate fact of life that there are morons on either side of a debate. The trick is to filter out the ludicrous and focus on those that are respectful, insightful and who actually know what they are talking about. Even if the person never persuades you they will always respect that you listened.
Arguments for/against religion are (arguably) pointless because of two things: First, consensus for rules of engagement are never agreed upon before, during or after polemic debates. Each side always expects the other to concede certain things, wherein to do so would render each others position invalid, thus rarely does any "discussing" go on.
Secondly, athiesm is merely believing that there is no deity/god; we've *nothing* collectively in common beyond that.
Why don't YOU start fighting against people like Terry Jones, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, Lee Strobel and all of the others who give Christianity a bad name? Show the atheist community that, at least for YOU, it is about spreading Jesus' message and NOT about simply being right. Do that and then come back.
It started with the Christian persecution of the Ebionite and Gnostics. Once christianity became the religion of the Roman empire, the christian atrocities became official policy. Then there were the crusades, spanish conquest of the Americans, portuguese conquests in east asia, the inquistion, etc, and it continues to this day. Christians have always operated under the premise of "There is no crime for those have Christ" (Shenoute, fifth-century abbot)
@AlhiFalaNashoba "Atheism is responsible for more murders in the world than anyone."
That is one of the biggest lies that Christians propagate. I have to use the world "lie", because nothing else fits. When Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot or Adolph Hitler commited mass murder it was NOT "in the name of atheism". You might as we say they did it because the have 'o' in their first name. Atrocities commited by Christians are done "in the name of Christ".
@AlhiFalaNashoba I'll grant you that there are atheists like that but there are also atheists like me that condemn such generalisations and stereotyping. Likewise there are Christians who generalise and stereotype and ones that don't. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, all religions, all points of view have those nuances. Comparing body counts or atrocities is pointless, the claims only have any value if a direct link can be shown between the view and the atrocity...
@Orygyn Stereotyping is human nature and based on a person's experience. If the majority of a group has a particular characteristic and the most visible/loudest in that group have that characteristic to extremes, then the stereotype is perpetuated by the group itself. We could narrow the group to "evangelical Christians" as being the "root of all evil", but until the *whole* group itself does something change the stereotype, I have less of a problem lumping them all together.
@jimmo42 If I'm reading this right that analogy doesn't apply in this case unless you're suggesting moderate Muslims commit lesser acts of terrorism or slightly sympathize with it.
@jimmo42 Analogy might've been the wrong word. What I'm saying is it's not appropriate ever to lump a whole group of people in with the most extreme elements of that group. Are all atheists Stalin? Are all Christians crusaders? Are all Catholics child rapists? The answer to all of those questions is no, and there should be no obligation by the moderates, who're innocent, to say anything against those extreme elements.
@AlhiFalaNashoba Certain individual elements of the story such as civilizations, people, locations and events may very well have actually happened, but others may not have and fly in the face of the other evidence.
"Also when idiots in Religious organizations do stupid stuff like promote hate speech against Homosexuals, Jesus was against persecution. Christianity is not a hate religion."
Respect. People can abuse their religious teachings or use them for our benefit.
@AlhiFalaNashoba Here's the problem with what you've just said. You've taken one book and used that as the basis of your historical evidence. In no situation would a story ever be enough. That's like saying Homer's Iliad proves the existence of Zeus, Apollo etc. The Bible must be put in the context of all other historical evidence of the time. Also if it makes supernatural claims, evidence of these supernatural events must be found for these claims to have merit.
@AlhiFalaNashoba "Then every historical event in the world only presented in history is false" I don't follow. A knowledge of history is built up using evidence. Fossils, Roman coins, etc. As we collect more of it, we can build the picture of what happened just like collecting evidence from a crime scene, just like data helps to advance science and technology. I really fail to see how asking for ANYTHING you're willing to call evidence, even if it turns out to not be, is close-minded.
@AlhiFalaNashoba I agree that they would've saved it, but I can't work with claims that they saved evidence, I need specific examples of evidence. I can only speak for myself, but if you or any other theist presented me with something and said "this is evidence of God", I can then evaluate it. If you feel I've been unfair, inaccurate or missed something, the discussion can continue from there. I will do that, but no theist has ever presented me with evidence, not even very bad evidence.
you're right in talking about the future direction of atheism and how it's going to have to start too appeal to people's emotions. i was even thinking that atheist churches might be necessary with all the trappings of the fun, stability and sense of community that they provide believers. A lot of people believe because they are lonely and church and religioin are a way to instantly be part of a group and have a place to go where people will be nice to you. athesits will have to deal with this
@Orygyn so...any tips on this? would a church be necessary where you live or is everyone ust already an atheist? THey would be necessary here in america because people won't talk to each other an interact wihtout them...any suggestions for a name? I really do feel that it is the path we need to be on to spread atheism as an idea, and possibly as a culture.
@theherdmentality I wouldn't go down the church road, I mean what would we do there? Also that gives ammo to the "atheism is a religion" crowd. Generally people here are moderate Christians: any religious belief is kept within their church or private life and they laugh at creationists like any of us. Explicitly declaring atheism might raise a few eyebrows but not to any significant extent: our deputy prime minister openly declared his atheism in the debates in 2010.
@Orygyn we are way far from that point in america where candidates frequently talk about their conversations with god and doing god's will, etc. That kind of public insanity is standard for american politicians.
What to do in an atheist church? celebrate the latest scientific advancements, create a calendar of holidays that celebrate human advancement, donate blood en masse, sunday school for kids, picnic events for families, etc. The problem of loneliness is very real and should be addressed
@theherdmentality From what I've seen, ideas tend to just emerge en masse following some catalyst. For example, the Arab Spring which started because Mohammad Bouazizi set himself on fire in front of the Tunisian parliament. The discontent was there but people were afraid of communicating it. As more people protested after Bouazizi those malcontents saw their opportunity and seized it. We need to keep doing the YouTube thing and then all we need is a catalyst (hopefully not involving suicide).
@Orygyn I fear it will take a lot mroe than suicide. perhaps an all out war for people to realize how harmful religion is. in some ways, we've already had enough wars to prove how stupid religion is, and yet it only hardens the resolve of the beleivers to continue in their ignorance. I don't think there is widespread discontent that simply needs a catalyst, i feel that there isn't ENOGUH discontent with religion so a catalyst would miss tha mark for people who aren't even weary of religion
@StuffedAnimalAdvisor If this is a serious comment instead of a deliberate strawman then that's an issue in and of itself: the simplification of a position down to black & white. Criticizing Islam for the claims it makes is good, lumping INNOCENT MUSLIMS in with terrorists and sympathisers is bad. If TF and Pat were doing the former, the drama wouldn't be happening.
@Orygyn I assume that Pat Condell lives in Europe, so he knows more about Europe's happenings than I.
From what I've read and heard (since I admit I have not been to Europe) they have a similar problem we have but to a worse exstent.
The Muslims and Islam seems to be taking over Europe....not becoming part of it. Pat Condell as a European has the right to call them on it about Europe becoming non-Europe.
It always struck me as funny that unless he said Europe, I'd swear he was talking USA
@StuffedAnimalAdvisor There are groups of fundamentalist Muslims in Europe that are actively seeking to implement Sharia law in their home countries but these groups are very small and, for the most part, ineffective. I don't have an issue with people saying that, because it's absolutely true, but I do have a problem with people suggesting that the majority of Muslims in that country feel the same way simply because of those fundie groups.
@Orygyn Cool. I'm probably pedantic & strict, on the definitions of Atheism, but what's the point of having a Godtheory unless it works ; every day, & in realtime ? So the people who insure the Church Roof against Storms, seem to me to have lost the plot ! At least the professed Atheists admit they can't imagine a Godtheory that works, for them ; which is far more honest than the Pretenders.., who appear Blasphemous, to me.
well, i agree that the PR issue is pretty big, but ive noticed that intelligent people in general get bored after a while with the same topics. its why religious people can listen to bs for an entire lifetime while we get bored even of stuff that affects us. thinking atheist is still going pretty strong. Tbh, i have thought about the anti-islam stuff for a while, and I do sorta agree with them. just my 2 bits
@Orygyn Well, it wasn't the people who live the Faith of the Rainbow-Serpent that broke the Biosphere, was it ? No, it was the people who subscribe to Powerless Godtheories. The ones who still say "My Godtheory is SO reliable, I have to pay tax to fund Warriors to keep me safe ; from all the Enemies imaginable..!" The ones who pretend to follow a Faith they don't try to live... The Practicing Behavioural Atheists.. The Economic Growthists.
We can talk about politics and talk about the subject on what religion do to us but in specific questions instead of generalize how wrong this or that religious book are. And another problem as you say is that people that states to be free-thinkers are not always that free in there thoughts. Just some thoughts from me. Have a skilful time. Pinge
the PR problem is not generated by just the high profile users. atheists of all levels are fuckin retarded. pwnage is lame. arguing with theists is a waste of time. political debate should be more constructive but is often just as pointless. ive basically just come to think enjoy it, and to hell with any higher aspirations of changing minds or affecting social change.
@SkidRowRadio sorry that was well grumpy wasnt it? lol. didnt mean to shit all over your suggestion to get things movin.. it would be great if the community was so cohesive. i guess im just disillusioned with it at the mo. ebs and flows tho, im sure ill regain some motivation at some point lol
@Orygyn G'day... Nice clip. Thanks for the History. I had been wondering. I spent 10 years an Atheist, & have been a Faithist for 25. How can Atheism be dead, when the Churches Of The Powerless Godtheory/s continue to Insure the Church Roof/s against Lightning, The Pope of the Church of Thou Shalt Not Kill has Armed Guards, and every Gov't on the Planet regulates Interest Rates, despite the Commandment against Usury ? Atheists broke the World !
TJ is a cunt, there are many more people on Youtube you should watch, wildwoodclaire, zaunstar, paulchartley, potholer54, thelivingdinosaur, etc etc etc, all much better than TJ, go look and in my opinion unsub from TJ a cunt dosnt deserve to have your attention.
I'm just wondering why Qualia Soup, TheraminTrees and Evid3nc3 hardly ever get mentioned. These are 3 of the smartest atheists on here, and I think they deserve a lot more recognition than they're getting.
Zaunstar is another one who usually doesn't get mentioned (although his argument style is and his videos in general are drastically different than the three aforementioned YouTubers.)
It's cool dude, I understand. Just though I'd mention them, because they have been some of the biggest influences on my person life as an atheist. Although Coughlan was probably the first big influence.
I totally agree that an important goal now should be to talk about drone behaviour and scepticism. cause these two things (well, the lack of the latter) are at the basis of any kind of religion-like way of thinking, which can lead to any type of fundamentalism.
Well, I am in Canada, but the same system applies; people who want to make money and do well tend to go to countries with lower tax rates, whereas countries like Canada tend to attract people that would rather take advantage of our social benefits programs. Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, or even the majority of people, but I would say that it is a significant factor.
@Reghedable actually like the usa canada's tax and social laws vary by province and in some cases even by regions. in ontario a litre of water costs 10 cents each in a busy hour and 5 cents in non-busy whereas ion quebec all the tap water is tax free. houses are much cheaper in eastern canada than the west, in british columbia a regular house costs 550,000 dollars while a house in new brunswick costs 150,000, but the market is more expensive there and with less transportation pay more bus fare.
@Reghedable in alberta and newfoundland only limited social taxes are used in their province, generally the government only pays themselves in more desperate cases, it means they must pay up front however it means they are paying less taxes which easily makes it more affordable. in the province of quebec age of majority comes at 18 and ontario 19 which means those living in ontario getting any juvenile cheques from the government in ontario get welfare a year longer than those in quebec.
I mostly agree with you, but you would agree that both sides of an issue should be skeptically examined, right? Like, in order to arrive at a conclusion closest to reality, one should boil down the arguments on both sides. For example, I think that the criticism applied to muslims in Europe is justified, but at the same time I don't think Islam is necessarily the problem. I would argue, instead, that the political systems present in Europe encourage the wrong type of people to come here.
@Reghedable Immigration policy isn't my area of expertise but I agree with your first 2 statements. The criticism only applies to some of those Muslims though. I'm talking about the Anjem Choudhary types. The others just want to live their lives in peace.
i'm still a big fan of TJ too. but you're right about the PR problem, generally. but, better to be real, and disallow efforts at shaming, or inferences of 'guilt by association'.
i don't reject the notion of 'the youtube atheist community'. a community is no better and no worse than the behaviour of its members. other people will think of us in, or as, a group, whether or not we seek to be seen as such. worth keeping in mind, i'd say.
The atheist community was ruined, espesially by guys like Pat Condell, and others. GUys like pat condell make it into a conservative right winged hate group. And then you had all the neo-atheists who took it from agnostic atheism to gnostic atheism.
@gulbirk If that's the case was it really ruined or it was it just shady to begin with? It takes people endorsing him for him to become popular so either his mindset was already prevalent or he helped create it.
@Orygyn He probably helped create it, but of course there already were some bat shit crasy people who just hates for the sake of hating. I also feel like we have become (as a community, thanks to guys like Pat) a bit hypocritical. Since he is the second biggest atheist in youtube, allot of people see him as that guy who represents atheism. And in the beginning, allot of atheists spoke about religious freedom. But now, it seems like allot of want that, just not for religious people, lol.
@gulbirk That's a point as well yeh. Also, TJ may have the most subs but Pat Condell has a Wikipedia page and both him and thunderf00t are watched by people like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris, and I'm not sure the same can be said about TJ.
@Orygyn It certainly cant. Pat and Thunderfoot are obviously more popular then TJ. Espesially their opinions. Which is what scares me. Thunderfoot I disagree with some times, but Pat, he is just a fucking right winged conservative lunatic. And if it wasnt for the fact that he was an atheist, no one in the atheist community would not openly support him. I mean he shares the same ideology as those from the far christian right.
I've never been apart, nor do I endorse communities that unite under a common belief or ideal, it's religion without the book. I'm a person that posts and interacts when I feel like doing such.
@hallcyon Many do, but it was far more prevalent 2 years ago. I don't doubt that TJ has a nuanced view of feminism I'm just saying the way he talks about it in his videos it comes across as if all feminists are like the radfems. It's good to hear from you again Galen, how's it going?
I enjoyed this. I really wish i hadn't been so badly beaten in the PR world. The reasoning behind niggerphobia is the exact reasoning behind any superstitious onomotaphobia. There is in fact something to gain from niggering, and i think that we ought to pick up specifically the banner of nigger until the deeper reasoning behind this taboo is exposed. I think that the same principles of reasoning are revealed in this debate as in the a/theist debates...
It's an area where semantics matters.
WorthlessLoser8 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@WorthlessLoser8 Yeh. The problem I think is with the novelty and the gargantuan task of what it is you're trying to do. Both those things make it so easy to demonise and so difficult to defend.
Orygyn 1 month ago
@Orygyn
Tragically...
WorthlessLoser8 1 month ago
I tend to agree with Thunderfoot that Youtube has become a few large subbed accounts and a few low view Video makers, The Middle Class is disappearing on Youtube. Atheists need something to push against and Theist Video makers are disappearing as well. Youtube not having a category for Religious or Theology Videos has also hurt.
xxxMST3Kxxx 2 months ago
@xxxMST3Kxxx Same here.
Orygyn 1 month ago
Just discovered your video and your channel, probably a bit too late. Listened to your speech, it was interesting, you got my ears. But the problem is, I am one of Thunderfoot's subscribers, and I don't see what he does wrong with his treatment of Islam. I myself was quite disappointed to see that split of the atheist community caused by Tfoot's and Patcondell's views. May you can briefly explain what is wrong with their positition towards Islam. I personally think it is sound and justified.
saamohod 2 months ago
@saamohod OK well speaking only for myself, my problem with TF and Pat is that they paint ALL Muslims with the same brush. Being Muslim is all they need to know about someone to judge them. When distinguishing between moderates and extremists they do so only to suggest that the moderates support the extremists through the obviously false claim that no moderates speak out against the extremists.
Orygyn 2 months ago
@saamohod They also try to strawman us by saying that we're afraid of them and/or think Islam should be given special treatment. If they criticised Islam the same way they criticised Christianity by attacking its claims instead of its adherents, we wouldn't have a problem with them. A religion can inspire people to do both good and bad depending on which passages you cherrypick, which is a criticism of all major religions.
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn I'm really reluctant to argue with another atheist, just wanna add a couple of words. Maybe Muslims are more often attacked personally for the reason that they PERSONALLY do things that Christians don't do for centuries, despite being commanded from the Bible (like all those killings, stoning and raping). And any criticism of Quran and Mohammed they take personally anyway, as a personal insult.
saamohod 2 months ago
@saamohod The first thing I'd say is please do argue with other atheists. If we really do champion logic and reason then criticism is how we refine our ideas. As for the meat of the issue, the problem I have with what you're saying is that you're making the same generalisations. "Muslims" don't do any of the things you described, PEOPLE do. Some of these people share the religious belief system of Islam, but not all, and not all Muslims do what you described.
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn As well as the fact that one cannot afford being diplomatic and even reasonable in their criticism of Islam. Muslims just take it as a weakness and act more offensively. Their culture is quite different from Western mainstream culture. Theirs is a culture of bullying and suppression. Yesterday the three top news in Wikipedia were three bombings. As you may have guessed, all of them are connected to Islam. Therefore I think Muslims and Christians deserve different treatment.
saamohod 2 months ago
@saamohod It's not about diplomacy, but accuracy in our descriptions of Muslim actions. Any less "civilised" behaviour or terrorist leanings coming from the middle east has a far more complex explanation than just that of religion, one that I'd need probably a few videos to begin to describe.
Orygyn 2 months ago
"Now what?" Become Theists so you can debate about which religion is right. lol Merry Christmas to you
Itrytotestify 2 months ago
@Itrytotestify And to you a good night 8<{D-
Orygyn 2 months ago
Ah well Orygyn you're one of the few Atheists I still enjoy listening to.
Itrytotestify 2 months ago
@Itrytotestify Thanks 8<{D-
Orygyn 2 months ago
you can't fight God and expect to win,after all he and the bible are the truth
raw5069 2 months ago
@raw5069 I assume you can back that up?
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn I can't but God can
raw5069 2 months ago
@raw5069 OK then.
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn int
raw5069 2 months ago
@Orygyn watch some of my videos and tell me what you think
raw5069 2 months ago
[1/2]
I've had my fix of Skyrim for a few days (recovering addict). I wanted to come back and talk about a larger problem; finding people on YouTube.
I think we *all* need to agree on a single (preferably nonsense) word to put into the tags of every video concerning religious polemics.
Type in the word "varp" (or other such word) in YouTube search, and (hopefully if the idea catches on) videos from big & small users alike (who use the tag) pop up. We need to game YouTube to stay connected.
logicaust 2 months ago
[2/2]
As I wrote before, I'm not a fan of atheist cliques, but if it were for the purpose of keeping religious discussion on YouTube accessible & vibrant, I would concede that the users with the most subscribers need to be the ones to get the ball rolling, and the only group I know of that is active on YouTube is the "League of Reason" (agreement/disagreement with their positions/members aside).
This is just an idea off the top of my head and I'm not sure it's feasible. Just a thought.
Peace.
logicaust 2 months ago
@logicaust Agreed.
Orygyn 2 months ago
My position as an atheist is to leave alone those who have faith but don't judge and concentrate on the those who push theology into education and public policy. We will never convert the masses, but when the fundamental theist cross the line to where their belief has a tangible effect on all people, we may perhaps draw a divide between the genuinely harmful fundamentalist and the marginally faithful who may help us reach our goal. That should be a fully open secular and reasonable society.
ShenFromTerraTraba 2 months ago
@ShenFromTerraTraba I like that position very much.
Orygyn 2 months ago
Maybe ask yourselves why you need to control the minds of other people. You will just get fight or flight responses back because it is strong emotional states that drive behavior.
chorns78 2 months ago
@chorns78 Who said anything about controlling anyone's mind?
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn From the video: "The problems that we talked about are still there. The atheists are still being marginalized. What do we do?"
Trying to radically change other people's values, beliefs and perspective is very difficult. They will either fight back or ignore the messages. Some people may move a little at a time...It's a process.
chorns78 2 months ago
@chorns78 Agreed. This is exactly why I think we need to find ways of keeping the topic alive and interesting somehow.
Orygyn 2 months ago
I was under the impression that people who claimed a religion was dropping. I don't know. =P
Thulgore 2 months ago
@Thulgore I'm under that impression too but we're still not a majority yet.
Orygyn 2 months ago
I remember Christopher Hitchens.
ShenFromTerraTraba 2 months ago
@ShenFromTerraTraba Yeh. Fuck cancer.
Orygyn 2 months ago
the atheist community dies only when everyone believes in god.
ShenFromTerraTraba 2 months ago
@ShenFromTerraTraba So true.
Orygyn 2 months ago
This is actually a very good video.
Reason is made from logic AND emotion. To just forgo an emotional component in your argument, it's almost like forgoing a part of yourself in that argument. Maybe I'm not being clear but I think that you said it best: You need to care about your argument.
Ultimately, having tons of well researched papers and arguments wont do anything. When push comes to shove you need to fight back but in a good way. With reason :)
Tommerman89 2 months ago
@Tommerman89 Exactly. This is something I've wanted to touch on for some time, something on which I still have a lot to say and hope I'll have an opportunity to say in a video sometime soon.
Orygyn 2 months ago
great video
eteledevil 2 months ago
@eteledevil Thanks 8<{D-
Orygyn 2 months ago
One thought about your video, Orygyn. We, we, we.
Sorry; YT atheists all seem like very nice people, don't get me wrong, but I'm not a part of the "YT Athiest Community" and have zero desire to be.
I thoroughly enjoy videos on the subjects of religion, atheism and philosopy, by the myriad of users that flock here, but I'm not going to make a video about the plight of the disenfranchised peoples of X because "my atheist homies want me to". I'm just here to lurk, watch & chat.
No disrespect.
logicaust 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@logicaust I certainly wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone but myself and I don't expect you or anyone else to do anything "for atheists". It's not even an approach I want to take myself, the point of the video is IF you want to resurrect the community, here are some ideas, do with them what you wish. No disrespect taken.
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn If I were to be very kind, I think that the "Athiest Community" was euthanised and has been reborn. If you trawl through the history of visible atheists on YouTube, you can condense it down to a lot of derp. Some videos were insightful, but good posters were glossed over, and psuedo-intellectuals rose to the top, on the back of a (than) controversial topic.
Even now, the "good posters", a lot of them are straight up boring, or have shown their true colours as irredeemable goofs.
logicaust 2 months ago
Many of the people I have watched over the years I remain subscribed to simply out of loyalty, many of them bore me to tears. Some new YouTubers are interesting, but they're getting harder to find, due to various reasons.
We've all also need to recognise that there is an existing 5/6 years worth of athiest content on YT anyway; why re-invent the wheel, when there's already a perfectly good car? Not many people take that attitude, though. Anyway, I'm rambling at this point.
Peace.
logicaust 2 months ago
@logicaust I do see we what you're saying and there's very little if anything left to say on the relevant issues but as I said in the video the fundies are never going to run out of ideas because they can essentially spout the same one indefinitely: give yourselves to our god. If there's no challenge to that, any fence-sitters might realise we're not responding and imply from that that we can't and they're right. It's a bit of a dilemma.
Orygyn 2 months ago
I wish random people with internet connections would stop coming on YouTube to lap up drivel from "atheist leaders". YouTube is fun, but not the place to seriously explore enlightenment on this.
A thought: I can imagine a future where there is no religion..but suddenly a disaster! Then a "prophet" begins roaming the land, proselytizing about their deity/visions.
The sad thing is that there will always be people that will eat it up; much like the mouth breathers we see here on YT. Tibi cogita..
logicaust 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
My experience is that the YouTube atheist community keeps repeating itself because it has nothing original to say. 'Same old hackneyed statements and/or insults, i.e. "invisible man," "spaghetti monster," zombie Christ," and the like. YouTube atheists have offered nothing but a litany of insults to theists without rationality, yet claiming to have exclusive rights to the faculty of reason. It is good that this brand of atheism is going away with its bigoted form of expression.
WinteRest49 2 months ago
@WinteRest49 Nothing? We're not all like the atheists you describe in fact in my experience most aren't.
Orygyn 2 months ago
@Orygyn I'm sure there are many thoughtful atheists. Even so, my comment is an accurate description of all that I've experienced from atheists posting on YouTube. My thought is that The Blasphemy Challenge has to be a poor representative of reflective atheism, as is Dawkins or Condell. All such people do is spread animosity, much like a judgemental, self-righteous Christian. To these types of atheist/theists I say, "Don't go away mad, just go away."
WinteRest49 2 months ago
@WinteRest49 This comment is exactly why I have never been an active member of the YT Atheist community (although as an atheist and a YouTuber, I am technically one). The reason you hold this position is because the stupidest usually speak the loudest and get the most attention. So although @Orygyn is correct, that the majority of atheists in the wider community are not how you described them, it is completely rational for you to assume we are based on the exposure you've been subjected to.
aussielung 2 months ago
@WinterRest49 With that said however, you can trust when @Orgyn says that we are not all like what you've experienced. It's an unfortunate fact of life that there are morons on either side of a debate. The trick is to filter out the ludicrous and focus on those that are respectful, insightful and who actually know what they are talking about. Even if the person never persuades you they will always respect that you listened.
aussielung 2 months ago
@aussielung Thanks for the input.
WinteRest49 2 months ago
@WinteRest49
Arguments for/against religion are (arguably) pointless because of two things: First, consensus for rules of engagement are never agreed upon before, during or after polemic debates. Each side always expects the other to concede certain things, wherein to do so would render each others position invalid, thus rarely does any "discussing" go on.
Secondly, athiesm is merely believing that there is no deity/god; we've *nothing* collectively in common beyond that.
Peace.
logicaust 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@logicaust 'Fair enough. Thanks.
WinteRest49 2 months ago
I'm going to bed now, but I hope I have time to do a response tomorrow!
ChelevSaRa 3 months ago
@ChelevSaRa I look forward to it 8<{D-
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba cont
Why don't YOU start fighting against people like Terry Jones, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, Lee Strobel and all of the others who give Christianity a bad name? Show the atheist community that, at least for YOU, it is about spreading Jesus' message and NOT about simply being right. Do that and then come back.
jimmo42 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba cont.
It started with the Christian persecution of the Ebionite and Gnostics. Once christianity became the religion of the Roman empire, the christian atrocities became official policy. Then there were the crusades, spanish conquest of the Americans, portuguese conquests in east asia, the inquistion, etc, and it continues to this day. Christians have always operated under the premise of "There is no crime for those have Christ" (Shenoute, fifth-century abbot)
jimmo42 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba "Atheism is responsible for more murders in the world than anyone."
That is one of the biggest lies that Christians propagate. I have to use the world "lie", because nothing else fits. When Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot or Adolph Hitler commited mass murder it was NOT "in the name of atheism". You might as we say they did it because the have 'o' in their first name. Atrocities commited by Christians are done "in the name of Christ".
jimmo42 3 months ago
You're probably my favorite orator on Youtube, which is why I will continue to watch your videos until the very end.
Hritzness 3 months ago
@Hritzness *blushes* You're too kind 8<{D-
Orygyn 3 months ago
It's time for science, making it fun and interesting for the common user.
endthedisease 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba ...and even then you're only showing that the idea is dangerous, not that it's wrong.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba I'll grant you that there are atheists like that but there are also atheists like me that condemn such generalisations and stereotyping. Likewise there are Christians who generalise and stereotype and ones that don't. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, all religions, all points of view have those nuances. Comparing body counts or atrocities is pointless, the claims only have any value if a direct link can be shown between the view and the atrocity...
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn Stereotyping is human nature and based on a person's experience. If the majority of a group has a particular characteristic and the most visible/loudest in that group have that characteristic to extremes, then the stereotype is perpetuated by the group itself. We could narrow the group to "evangelical Christians" as being the "root of all evil", but until the *whole* group itself does something change the stereotype, I have less of a problem lumping them all together.
jimmo42 3 months ago
@jimmo42 If I'm reading this right that analogy doesn't apply in this case unless you're suggesting moderate Muslims commit lesser acts of terrorism or slightly sympathize with it.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn Sorry, I'm missing what you are getting at. Which analogy?
jimmo42 3 months ago
@jimmo42 Analogy might've been the wrong word. What I'm saying is it's not appropriate ever to lump a whole group of people in with the most extreme elements of that group. Are all atheists Stalin? Are all Christians crusaders? Are all Catholics child rapists? The answer to all of those questions is no, and there should be no obligation by the moderates, who're innocent, to say anything against those extreme elements.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba Certain individual elements of the story such as civilizations, people, locations and events may very well have actually happened, but others may not have and fly in the face of the other evidence.
"Also when idiots in Religious organizations do stupid stuff like promote hate speech against Homosexuals, Jesus was against persecution. Christianity is not a hate religion."
Respect. People can abuse their religious teachings or use them for our benefit.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba Here's the problem with what you've just said. You've taken one book and used that as the basis of your historical evidence. In no situation would a story ever be enough. That's like saying Homer's Iliad proves the existence of Zeus, Apollo etc. The Bible must be put in the context of all other historical evidence of the time. Also if it makes supernatural claims, evidence of these supernatural events must be found for these claims to have merit.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba "Then every historical event in the world only presented in history is false" I don't follow. A knowledge of history is built up using evidence. Fossils, Roman coins, etc. As we collect more of it, we can build the picture of what happened just like collecting evidence from a crime scene, just like data helps to advance science and technology. I really fail to see how asking for ANYTHING you're willing to call evidence, even if it turns out to not be, is close-minded.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba I agree that they would've saved it, but I can't work with claims that they saved evidence, I need specific examples of evidence. I can only speak for myself, but if you or any other theist presented me with something and said "this is evidence of God", I can then evaluate it. If you feel I've been unfair, inaccurate or missed something, the discussion can continue from there. I will do that, but no theist has ever presented me with evidence, not even very bad evidence.
Orygyn 3 months ago
you're right in talking about the future direction of atheism and how it's going to have to start too appeal to people's emotions. i was even thinking that atheist churches might be necessary with all the trappings of the fun, stability and sense of community that they provide believers. A lot of people believe because they are lonely and church and religioin are a way to instantly be part of a group and have a place to go where people will be nice to you. athesits will have to deal with this
theherdmentality 3 months ago
@theherdmentality Indeed.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn so...any tips on this? would a church be necessary where you live or is everyone ust already an atheist? THey would be necessary here in america because people won't talk to each other an interact wihtout them...any suggestions for a name? I really do feel that it is the path we need to be on to spread atheism as an idea, and possibly as a culture.
theherdmentality 3 months ago
@theherdmentality I wouldn't go down the church road, I mean what would we do there? Also that gives ammo to the "atheism is a religion" crowd. Generally people here are moderate Christians: any religious belief is kept within their church or private life and they laugh at creationists like any of us. Explicitly declaring atheism might raise a few eyebrows but not to any significant extent: our deputy prime minister openly declared his atheism in the debates in 2010.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn we are way far from that point in america where candidates frequently talk about their conversations with god and doing god's will, etc. That kind of public insanity is standard for american politicians.
What to do in an atheist church? celebrate the latest scientific advancements, create a calendar of holidays that celebrate human advancement, donate blood en masse, sunday school for kids, picnic events for families, etc. The problem of loneliness is very real and should be addressed
theherdmentality 3 months ago
@theherdmentality Yeh there's tons to consider.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@theherdmentality From what I've seen, ideas tend to just emerge en masse following some catalyst. For example, the Arab Spring which started because Mohammad Bouazizi set himself on fire in front of the Tunisian parliament. The discontent was there but people were afraid of communicating it. As more people protested after Bouazizi those malcontents saw their opportunity and seized it. We need to keep doing the YouTube thing and then all we need is a catalyst (hopefully not involving suicide).
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn I fear it will take a lot mroe than suicide. perhaps an all out war for people to realize how harmful religion is. in some ways, we've already had enough wars to prove how stupid religion is, and yet it only hardens the resolve of the beleivers to continue in their ignorance. I don't think there is widespread discontent that simply needs a catalyst, i feel that there isn't ENOGUH discontent with religion so a catalyst would miss tha mark for people who aren't even weary of religion
theherdmentality 3 months ago
Why is critizising islam bad.
Its just as much a religion and religious as Christianity.
Sure there are some differences between the 2 religions, just like there are differences between West and Middle East.
StuffedAnimalAdvisor 3 months ago
@StuffedAnimalAdvisor
I criticise Islam all the damn time - the trick is not to be an ignorant bigot, or to strawman your opponents (Taqqiyyah, Stealth Jihad, bla bla).
Klingschor 3 months ago
@Klingschor And he does it very well. Subscribe to him or you're missing out guys.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn
Why thank you :)
Klingschor 3 months ago
@StuffedAnimalAdvisor If this is a serious comment instead of a deliberate strawman then that's an issue in and of itself: the simplification of a position down to black & white. Criticizing Islam for the claims it makes is good, lumping INNOCENT MUSLIMS in with terrorists and sympathisers is bad. If TF and Pat were doing the former, the drama wouldn't be happening.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn I assume that Pat Condell lives in Europe, so he knows more about Europe's happenings than I.
From what I've read and heard (since I admit I have not been to Europe) they have a similar problem we have but to a worse exstent.
The Muslims and Islam seems to be taking over Europe....not becoming part of it. Pat Condell as a European has the right to call them on it about Europe becoming non-Europe.
It always struck me as funny that unless he said Europe, I'd swear he was talking USA
StuffedAnimalAdvisor 3 months ago
@StuffedAnimalAdvisor There are groups of fundamentalist Muslims in Europe that are actively seeking to implement Sharia law in their home countries but these groups are very small and, for the most part, ineffective. I don't have an issue with people saying that, because it's absolutely true, but I do have a problem with people suggesting that the majority of Muslims in that country feel the same way simply because of those fundie groups.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn Cool. I'm probably pedantic & strict, on the definitions of Atheism, but what's the point of having a Godtheory unless it works ; every day, & in realtime ? So the people who insure the Church Roof against Storms, seem to me to have lost the plot ! At least the professed Atheists admit they can't imagine a Godtheory that works, for them ; which is far more honest than the Pretenders.., who appear Blasphemous, to me.
WarblesOnALot 3 months ago
great video, ory. always a pleasure to see you back. :)
lacigreen 3 months ago
@lacigreen One day it'll be for good. Thanks Laci.
Orygyn 3 months ago
well, i agree that the PR issue is pretty big, but ive noticed that intelligent people in general get bored after a while with the same topics. its why religious people can listen to bs for an entire lifetime while we get bored even of stuff that affects us. thinking atheist is still going pretty strong. Tbh, i have thought about the anti-islam stuff for a while, and I do sorta agree with them. just my 2 bits
dandil 3 months ago
@dandil Fair enough.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn Well, it wasn't the people who live the Faith of the Rainbow-Serpent that broke the Biosphere, was it ? No, it was the people who subscribe to Powerless Godtheories. The ones who still say "My Godtheory is SO reliable, I have to pay tax to fund Warriors to keep me safe ; from all the Enemies imaginable..!" The ones who pretend to follow a Faith they don't try to live... The Practicing Behavioural Atheists.. The Economic Growthists.
WarblesOnALot 3 months ago
@WarblesOnALot Ah OK.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba Many cultures CLAIMED to experience some form of god but it's the validity of the claim we're interested in.
Orygyn 3 months ago
We can talk about politics and talk about the subject on what religion do to us but in specific questions instead of generalize how wrong this or that religious book are. And another problem as you say is that people that states to be free-thinkers are not always that free in there thoughts. Just some thoughts from me. Have a skilful time. Pinge
PingeMusic 3 months ago
@PingeMusic Agreed.
Orygyn 3 months ago
the PR problem is not generated by just the high profile users. atheists of all levels are fuckin retarded. pwnage is lame. arguing with theists is a waste of time. political debate should be more constructive but is often just as pointless. ive basically just come to think enjoy it, and to hell with any higher aspirations of changing minds or affecting social change.
SkidRowRadio 3 months ago
@SkidRowRadio Fair enough.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@SkidRowRadio sorry that was well grumpy wasnt it? lol. didnt mean to shit all over your suggestion to get things movin.. it would be great if the community was so cohesive. i guess im just disillusioned with it at the mo. ebs and flows tho, im sure ill regain some motivation at some point lol
SkidRowRadio 3 months ago
@SkidRowRadio Don't worry about it, I get the same way sometimes as well.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn G'day... Nice clip. Thanks for the History. I had been wondering. I spent 10 years an Atheist, & have been a Faithist for 25. How can Atheism be dead, when the Churches Of The Powerless Godtheory/s continue to Insure the Church Roof/s against Lightning, The Pope of the Church of Thou Shalt Not Kill has Armed Guards, and every Gov't on the Planet regulates Interest Rates, despite the Commandment against Usury ? Atheists broke the World !
WarblesOnALot 3 months ago
@WarblesOnALot You're going to have to be a bit more specific as to who you're talking about.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@AlhiFalaNashoba It's pretty much the same as everyone else's. That's the problem, we've made them all.
Orygyn 3 months ago
TJ is a cunt, there are many more people on Youtube you should watch, wildwoodclaire, zaunstar, paulchartley, potholer54, thelivingdinosaur, etc etc etc, all much better than TJ, go look and in my opinion unsub from TJ a cunt dosnt deserve to have your attention.
tersse 3 months ago
@tersse potholer54 definitely. The others I've heard of but I'll have to check them out in more detail.
Orygyn 3 months ago
I wonder what role the messed up YouTube's shorter and then even shorter charts and listings. YouTube itself is part of the problem.
DonSSanders 3 months ago
@DonSSanders Yeh.
Orygyn 3 months ago
I'm just wondering why Qualia Soup, TheraminTrees and Evid3nc3 hardly ever get mentioned. These are 3 of the smartest atheists on here, and I think they deserve a lot more recognition than they're getting.
Zaunstar is another one who usually doesn't get mentioned (although his argument style is and his videos in general are drastically different than the three aforementioned YouTubers.)
AgentKuo 3 months ago
@AgentKuo Crap, I originally planned to mention QualiaSoup and ThereminTrees I just completely forgot when it came to actually making the video.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn
It's cool dude, I understand. Just though I'd mention them, because they have been some of the biggest influences on my person life as an atheist. Although Coughlan was probably the first big influence.
AgentKuo 3 months ago
I totally agree that an important goal now should be to talk about drone behaviour and scepticism. cause these two things (well, the lack of the latter) are at the basis of any kind of religion-like way of thinking, which can lead to any type of fundamentalism.
wonderpope 3 months ago
@wonderpope Indeed 8<{D-
Orygyn 3 months ago
Well, I am in Canada, but the same system applies; people who want to make money and do well tend to go to countries with lower tax rates, whereas countries like Canada tend to attract people that would rather take advantage of our social benefits programs. Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, or even the majority of people, but I would say that it is a significant factor.
Reghedable 3 months ago
@Reghedable actually like the usa canada's tax and social laws vary by province and in some cases even by regions. in ontario a litre of water costs 10 cents each in a busy hour and 5 cents in non-busy whereas ion quebec all the tap water is tax free. houses are much cheaper in eastern canada than the west, in british columbia a regular house costs 550,000 dollars while a house in new brunswick costs 150,000, but the market is more expensive there and with less transportation pay more bus fare.
ultradumbass 3 months ago
@ultradumbass HOLY CRAP! DAVID! WHATS GOING ON!
Reghedable 3 months ago
@Reghedable Sounds good.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Reghedable uh have we met?
ultradumbass 3 months ago
@Reghedable oh wait now i remember you're reid aren't you?
ultradumbass 3 months ago
@Reghedable in alberta and newfoundland only limited social taxes are used in their province, generally the government only pays themselves in more desperate cases, it means they must pay up front however it means they are paying less taxes which easily makes it more affordable. in the province of quebec age of majority comes at 18 and ontario 19 which means those living in ontario getting any juvenile cheques from the government in ontario get welfare a year longer than those in quebec.
ultradumbass 3 months ago
I mostly agree with you, but you would agree that both sides of an issue should be skeptically examined, right? Like, in order to arrive at a conclusion closest to reality, one should boil down the arguments on both sides. For example, I think that the criticism applied to muslims in Europe is justified, but at the same time I don't think Islam is necessarily the problem. I would argue, instead, that the political systems present in Europe encourage the wrong type of people to come here.
Reghedable 3 months ago
@Reghedable Immigration policy isn't my area of expertise but I agree with your first 2 statements. The criticism only applies to some of those Muslims though. I'm talking about the Anjem Choudhary types. The others just want to live their lives in peace.
Orygyn 3 months ago
i'm still a big fan of TJ too. but you're right about the PR problem, generally. but, better to be real, and disallow efforts at shaming, or inferences of 'guilt by association'.
i don't reject the notion of 'the youtube atheist community'. a community is no better and no worse than the behaviour of its members. other people will think of us in, or as, a group, whether or not we seek to be seen as such. worth keeping in mind, i'd say.
gothatfunk 3 months ago
@gothatfunk Definitely.
Orygyn 3 months ago
The atheist community was ruined, espesially by guys like Pat Condell, and others. GUys like pat condell make it into a conservative right winged hate group. And then you had all the neo-atheists who took it from agnostic atheism to gnostic atheism.
gulbirk 3 months ago
@gulbirk If that's the case was it really ruined or it was it just shady to begin with? It takes people endorsing him for him to become popular so either his mindset was already prevalent or he helped create it.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn He probably helped create it, but of course there already were some bat shit crasy people who just hates for the sake of hating. I also feel like we have become (as a community, thanks to guys like Pat) a bit hypocritical. Since he is the second biggest atheist in youtube, allot of people see him as that guy who represents atheism. And in the beginning, allot of atheists spoke about religious freedom. But now, it seems like allot of want that, just not for religious people, lol.
gulbirk 3 months ago
@gulbirk That's a point as well yeh. Also, TJ may have the most subs but Pat Condell has a Wikipedia page and both him and thunderf00t are watched by people like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris, and I'm not sure the same can be said about TJ.
Orygyn 3 months ago
@Orygyn It certainly cant. Pat and Thunderfoot are obviously more popular then TJ. Espesially their opinions. Which is what scares me. Thunderfoot I disagree with some times, but Pat, he is just a fucking right winged conservative lunatic. And if it wasnt for the fact that he was an atheist, no one in the atheist community would not openly support him. I mean he shares the same ideology as those from the far christian right.
gulbirk 3 months ago
@gulbirk Agreed.
Orygyn 3 months ago
Comment removed
AGNOSTICEXTREME 3 months ago
I've never been apart, nor do I endorse communities that unite under a common belief or ideal, it's religion without the book. I'm a person that posts and interacts when I feel like doing such.
CountHektor 3 months ago
@CountHektor That sounds like the best approach.
Orygyn 3 months ago
Comment removed
hallcyon 3 months ago
@hallcyon Many do, but it was far more prevalent 2 years ago. I don't doubt that TJ has a nuanced view of feminism I'm just saying the way he talks about it in his videos it comes across as if all feminists are like the radfems. It's good to hear from you again Galen, how's it going?
Orygyn 3 months ago
Good video and sounded quite accurate
AsifItMatters 3 months ago
@AsifItMatters Thanks 8<{D-
Orygyn 3 months ago