It's cool to upgrade the current fighter designs,so countries that have ordered these planes can upgrade and save some money. The 5th gen fighters are more advanced,but,I'm getting suspicious of some of the sub contractors that have anything to do with American defense. I think the Chinese may be sabotaging the industry with phony contractors,maybe I'm just paranoid,but ,you never know.
@MrZw69 Boeing is marketing this to friendly foreign countries, like South Korea. The RoK already has F-15Ks, which are also getting-on in age like US F-15Cs. As for the USAF, they're not officially looking at it, yet.
I doubt this project will get anywhere! This is obviously intended for export purposes, and for winning some of the customers lost to Russian aerospace domination over the last decade. Only, with the new Russian PAK FA 50 costing a mere $50 million, customers may wanna wait an extra year or two, and purchase the second only to F-22B aircraft out there.
It occures to me that Boeing probably could've bought the rights to the YF-23 instead of making Silent Eagles. Except for thrust vectoring the YF-23 was vastly superior to the F-22 we know today. And with most of the R&D already done it would be a far cheaper alternative still! Modifications not withstanding.
@bujoun76 "...vastly superior to the F-22 we know today"? Wow, what a ridiculous comment. You incredibly misinformed YF-23 fanboys crack me up. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way, enjoy your little fantasy!
@Gottisanidiot Of cousre im a "23" fan boy - it was superior! The YF-23 was much lighter than the Raptor. It was aerodynamically superior, had a better radar cross section, and had a brutally high thrust to weight ratio. Sounds superior to me. Im sure thrust vectoring would've come sooner or later. Raw performance isn't what killed the YF-23. As usual it starts and ends with politcs. Facts are easy to find if you take a minute (or 2) to look for them! Be warned - it can be heart breaking.
@bujoun76 The YF-23 had a smaller RCS (if you understand what that means). But aerodynamically superior? You're a fucking idiot. During the evaluations, the YF-22 was far more agile at all speeds, faster with burner, had better avionics, was easier and cheaper to maintain and produce. Hell, the YF-23 had outdated F-15E avionics and couldn't even get the weapons bay doors to work to launch missiles. Just a few accurate facts that even a dumb nigger like you should be able to find on the web.
@Gottisanidiot I actually agree with most of what you had to say and I would've argued a bit more on your research but now that you lowered your arguments, to such a low level, I dont see any reason to go on. Racisism is an ugly thing and I think you're a better person than this. I wont respond in kind because I dont hate you. I also wont be reading anything you have to offer from now. I feel sorry for you.
simply amazing, when the door closes, it looks like the door wasn't even there in the first place, Boeing designed the Silent Eagle to be absolutely perfect!
door weapons bay open too long. it's exactly what caused the f117 to be caught on radars and shot down. f22 bay is open for less than a second. this thing is boeing's pathetic attempt to redeem itself for losing the fighter contracts.
@JadedGrey This was just a test to make sure everything works the way its suppose to. So the pilots don't care at that point about who can pick him up on radar. You think a F-22 pilot flying at air shows leaving his bays open so peole can see is worrying who can spot him on radar?
@JadedGrey Keep in mind this was a test. That's why they kept the bay open for so long. I'm sure production versions will have a faster door actuation.
@JadedGrey f117 was shot down because of poor mission planning and adaptive tactics by the serbian air defenses. and lots and lots of random missile launches. would've been shot down even if it never opened its doors.
@stalkingalizee its reduced radar and thermal signature for "semi stealth" so its difficult to see on old and outdated radar systems like the ones momar ghadaffi has :)
@stalkingalizee yeah true. but the one that crashed in Libya was in my opinion downed by mechanical failure because if it really was shot down, the engine nozzles would have been annihilated by a heat seaking missile locking on to them. but when you see the video of Libyan kids playing on it, the engine exhaust nozzles and most of the airframe is relatively intact. but either way it was an embarrassment.
It was not a downed because of enemy fire, it was really mechanical failure, so its not a matter of opinion and it really isnt an embarrisment, this stuff happens too all the aircrafts all the time, esspecially the fact that even the strike eagle is about 25 years old.
Yes, you can tell it from the other f15 varieties because of the internal weapons bay (among other things), it is amazing how when that door closes - it looks like it isn't even there to begin with.
@clericboy289 No. What they're doing is testing the prototype of the conformal weapons bay (CWB) that would go on an F-15SE on a regular F-15E test bed.
@Howard25247 among other things, the fuel tanks used in the F-15E where redesigned as weapon bays, it has a canted tail like any 5th gen fighter, imroved avionics and reduced RCS, its pretty much a cheap way to make a 4.5 fighter.
@Howard25247 F-15SE is like a Gen 4.5 fighter and the F-35 is a true Gen 5. I am sure Korea is strongly considering the F-15SE because of the 90% commonality with there current F-15Ks and the undefeated combat proven airframe. It just ads a stealthy edge and the new Active Scanned Array Radar to an already great fighter for cheaper than the alternative. F-15E is for strike and SE air dominance. But the F-35 would be an all new airframe and common across many NATO countries but more expensive.
The F22 can do snap turn of a 30-32degrees persecond turn and can sustain 28 degree persecond turn. The Su-35 can only maintain a 23degree persecond turn. The F22 is slightly smaller then the F-15. In contrast the SU-35 is larger and heaveir then the F-15. Because of this the SU35 has a larger turning radius and smaller AoA then the F22. The F22 is vastly superior in BVR engagements then the SU35. In close the SU35 and F22 will be an ALMOST even match, but the F22 still has a bit of a advantage
WHoa whoa, now we've gotten into a huge disagreement. The SU35s are caparable in a small way to the F22 but no where as good. The F35 agility is as good or slightly better then its Gen 4 counterparts like the F16 which is pretty much the standard for single engine light weight aircraft for NATO. Yes the F35 has thrust vectoring but only in the F35B varient which will only use it during Short takes offs and vertical landings, NOT for actual flight or combat.
The Silent Eagle would be a great alternative 4 the F-22 as an aerial superiority fighter, since the F-22's production was stopped. But I have a question about the aircraft shown here: doesn't the Silent eagle have canted vertical tail fins. The aircraft shown in this clip doesn't feature such fins.
@StiviGun1 it probably an early stage prototype. have to say though, boeing seems very lazy. this looks like just a normal f15e with swapped conformal fuel tanks for weapons bay. and only 4 missiles? c'mon
@vk45de Yeah, 4 missiles inside. The thing is that u can't make a fighter that has long range, high speed, big weapons payload and stealth in the same time. Well, u can, but this would cost too much in US. The Russians have done it with their PAK FA. That's why I think F-22 should've never been developed. They should've build upgraded F-15 variants. A fighter that has less than 3000km range with 2 external fuel tanks, which compromise all it stealth, it's not an air superiority fighter.
@StiviGun1 the F-22 is actually needed, though its has been watered down from what the USAF wanted ,it's still going to be very effective. the issue with F-15 is age.
those airframes are very old right now and were built crudely by today's standard. even giving TVC and new avionics ,gets' some more life outta it but utlimately you still will need a new design and airframe
@verdebusterAP You can build, new, improved F-15 airframes. It will still cost less because it's the same airframe, you don't have to make all the necessary documentation and research for a new one. The F-22, like I said, has a very small range. It has all the avionics & stealth, but it simply has a too short range. I mean, if u want the aircraft 2 operate at its full potential, have 2 put 2 external fuel tanks, on it, which will compromise its stealth. The F-22 is just not good.
@stolly27 From an aircraft that costs as much as the F-22, I have a lot of expectations. Its small range makes it unsuitable for its main role as air superiority fighter. Not to mention interdiction missions, which require an even bigger range. The F-22 offers absolutely no advantage. The fact that it's stealth is not an advantage. Radars that detect stealthy planes already exist & the technology will be improved more & more.
@StiviGun1 I'd like to think that 20years and billions of dollars later wasn't used to make a useless aircraft. What we know about the F-22 is all we're EVER going to know about it. Theres alot more to the F-22 we dont know about it. If it was such a "useless" aircraft why did the US ban foriegn sales of the F-22? The US has 20 years experience with stealth tech. Everytime F-22s go to Red Flag in Neveda or Alaska, F-22s don't just hold their own but spank all others.
@HighSpeedPFC I never said the F-22 is not good, I said that it doesn't offer performances equal to its costs. In other words, is not cost effective. I honestly don;t know what could they not reveal about it & what secret capabilities might have? I mean, it's not like it shoots lasers, for Christ sake... U can't say that the F-22 can actually fly at over 3 mach & that in fact it has a 3x bigger range than they officially claim. There may be SOME untold capabilities, but not "a lot", like you
@StiviGun1 Im not saying it has lasers yet there are things about the F-22 that are a well guarded secret about it. The exact max thrust is still classified yet most sources put at about 35000lbs per engine. The Max speed is greatly debated. Officially the USAF claims mach 1.8 yet says the F-22 is more the capable to do mach 2+. There are alot of guarded material and specs about the aircraft we don't know about.
@HighSpeedPFC Well, if the F-22's speed and range are higher than they officially declare, then it's fine. But somehow, I have the feeling that it's not.
And the speed they claim it can reach is mach 2.5, but in the same time they say that the max speed is 2410 km/h, which mach 2... This looks like a self contradiction to me.
As 4 those guarded and secret materials about it, i'd really like to see what it is.
The figures that I now, say these: the F-22 is heavier by about 3 tonnes and its
@HighSpeedPFC engines are as powerful as the Yf-23's, but the YF-23, being lighter, it has a better thrust/weight ratio. The YF-23 has a bigger wing surface, which helps it in 2 areas: more fuel - bigger range, and better climb rate. It also had better stealth. It was probably equipped with HMS & the AIM-9X, which totally eliminated the need 4 supermaneuverability.
The F-22's only advantage, as official figures show, it's only its supermaneuverability, but you'll see that the F-35, with its HUD
@HighSpeedPFC and DAS plus, the AIM-9X missile, will defeat the supermaneuverable F-22 in a dog-fight every time.And the F-35 is a much poorer performer than the YF-23. Imagine what the YF-23 could've done. My opinion is that, unless they completely lied about the F-22's max speed and range, they made the wrong choice. Honestly, I don't see what improvements they can bring to the F-22 to compensate for its short range and its pretty low speed.
@StiviGun1 You will ALWAYS need an aircaft that is nimble, quick, and has guns. The US learned that harsh reality during the early stages of Vietnam. The US made up for that with the F18, F16, F15, and F14. The F22 can fire its missiles at high angles of attack. Currently the only other aircraft out there that can do that to my knowledge is the EF Typhoon. Having a weapon that can shoot "off bore sight" will increase you effectiveness in close combat. Thats no garauntee that the weapon will hit.
@HighSpeedPFC The technology has evolved a lot since Vietnam. Furthermore, the F-22 is not agile enough to outmaneuver a SU-35. An F-35 with its HUD and DAS has much bigger chances against the very nimble Su-35 than the F-22. Missiles reach much higher speeds & they r much more agile than any aircraft.
As 4 shooting missiles at high AoA capability, the Russian Su-27 & its variants & the MiG-29 can do that too. In fact, the F-22 can do what the Russians were doing in their Su-27 and MiG-29 20
@HighSpeedPFC years ago. Besides, the YF-23's bigger wing surface and mush better thrust/weight ratio would've given it a much better climbing rate and turning rate than the F-22. The F-22's thrust/weight ratio is not that good.
As 4 maneuverability, what is easier: having to turn the entire plane to get a lock on or just to turn your head? In F-35, with its distributed aperture system, you don't even have to turn your head anymore.
@StiviGun1 but now belly of your aircraft is flat, your nose is pointed up, essentially you are now one huge airbrake. Beyond a certain AoA an aircraft will go into a stall. F22s Su35s F35s Typhoons all have their AoA limit. Because of their relative size SU35s cant push more then a 25degree persecond turn without stalling. Vector thrust improves the agility of your aircraft but it doesnt make it stall proof.
@HighSpeedPFC Actually, the Su-27, even though much larger than the F-15, has a better turning rate and a better climbing rate. Its design is better. Wing design, control surfaces, and a lot of other factors contribute to an aircraft's performances.
And something else, the Su-27 performs the Cobra maneuver, which is an over 100 degrees AoA maneuver, but it manages 2 execute it very fast, it brings its nose up in less than a second and it doesn't get into a stall.
@StiviGun1 The Pukachev Cobra looks nice but in actual practice is actually one of the worse things you can do. That manuever only works when the aircraft is flying straight and level which in a close in dog fight is something pilots NEVER do. Second thing is it might look good for a 1 on 1 confrentation but theres always the wing man to worry about. Yes the F14 could turn as good as its F18 at lower speeds but it couldnt stay in that turn as long because of its size.
@HighSpeedPFC I was just demonstrating that an aircraft can be large, but in the same time very agile and maneuverable. This Su-27 is a very good example of that. The Cobra maneuver may not be useful in a dog-fight, but it shows that the Su-27, despite being so large, it can execute very high AoAs, much higher than the F-15, even though the F-15 is smaller and lighter. Also, my point was that the Su-27 can pull much more than 25 degrees per second without going into a stall.
@StiviGun1 The Cobra is essentially a controlled stall manuever. The SU35 is too heavy and its too big to stay in a turning fight with an F22. The SU35 will struggle to maintain air speed and power to stay within an F22s turn. Though really I dont think a Sukhoi or a Mig will ever get that close to an F22. For the PAKFA Im not putting much faith in it. It looks good but even Russia is admitting that it wont be as advanced or stealthy. Last I heard, India is thinking of dropping out of the >>
@StiviGun1 >> Dropping out of the PAKFA because they're afraid that it may become too expensive and are opting to purchase the EuroFighter. Also by the time Russia puts out their first fleet of PAKFA's the F22 will already have a significant lead on them in terms of upgrades and pilot experience. Personnally I still think the USAF should have gotten their original order of 330 aircraft. 187 just isn't enough. Then complimented with an equally small number of F35s is stupid. That is unless >>
@HighSpeedPFC Well, the Su-35 is actually lighter than the F-22. Couple this with its 3D TVC & u will get an aircraft more than capable of getting into a turning fight with the F-22. In fact, it will be superior 2 the F-22 in this aspect.
I never heard abt India thinking of dropping out of the PAK FA program, they invested a lot in it so I don;t think they're gonna do that.
As 4 the F-35 numbers, from what I know, they increased the F-35 numbers they intend to purchase. But the F-22's numbers
@HighSpeedPFC reduction was indeed a mistake. even though I believe that purchasing it over the YF-23 was a mistake.
As for UCAVs, that's what I said too. The US should focus on UCAV development, and leave the manned fighters behind. In fact, my opinion is that they should also drastically reduce the F-35 procurement and focus the resources on UCAV development.
@StiviGun1 Back in 2008 India brought there SU30MKIs to the Red Flag exercise at Nellis AFB in Neveda. The SU30MKI is pretty much the export version of the SU35. At the end of the exercise the SU30MKIs proved to be not as capable as the F22. The SU35s do not have the same capabilities as the F22, might come close in some areas but in most; nowhere near. India wont pull out of thee PAKFA but there was talk about if the PAKFA goes too much over budget, the Indian AF will look at >>
@StiviGun1 >> cheaper more readily available aircraft with comparable abilities like the Eurofighter Typhoon, the French Rafale, and the Saab JAS-39 Gripen. Though I believe developments of the UCAV should proceed, there will have to be a look at changing RoEs. I dont believe we should make them completely autonomous, we should always keep the human element in it. I believe there will always be a need for manned aircraft. I believe UCAVs should supplement or compliemtn but not take over.
@HighSpeedPFC 1: the Su-30MKI is nothing like the Su-35. In fact, it has poorer performance than the F-15 as well. It has lower speed, poorer T/W ratio. So th3 2008 Red Flag doesn't prove anything about the Su-35.
As 4 India dropping of the PAK FA, give me a viable source that says that. None of the aircraft u mentioned can't compare with the PAK FA. I don't know where u get ur info, but u r mistaking. India hasn't pulled out from the PAK FA program. In fact, they r working at their own PAK FA
@StiviGun1 I get my info mainly from Jane's Defence. The SU30MKI is incredibly similar to the SU35 with the acception of the vecotor thrusting. While the SU35 has a 3Dem VT, the SU30MKI uses a VT similar to the F22 but still not the same as F22's. Many of the capabilities of the SU30MKI and the Su35 are almost the same.
The PAKFA and that HALFGFA is a essentially the same program. Its a joint venture between Russia and India, one aicraft is for India the other for Russia.
@HighSpeedPFC Go read what the MKI's performances are and then compare them with the Su-35's and F-15's. You'll see that it is inferior in speed and T/W ratio. Poor T/W ratio means poorer turning & climbing rates.
As 4 HAL FGFA, that is A PAKA FA'S VERSION that will be a modified 4 the Indians requirements. It won't be exactly like the PAK FA. It's not even built yet, it's still in the designing stage.
@StiviGun1 The other program soley an Indian initiative is the MRCA Competition held by India. Though mainly a program to replace India's aging aircraft with more capable gen 4.5 aircraft, it is considered to be a fall back to the PAKFA / HALFGFA program.
Just correction on earlier what I mean to say is that the Su35 has fully rotating nozzles for it vector thrust.
@HighSpeedPFC Maybe India, just like Russia, doesn't intend 2 rely only on stealth aircraft. Maybe it wants 2 use the same doctrine as the Russians 2 combine stealthy aircraft with conventional 4.5, very capable from performances point of view, fighters. Maybe that's what that MRCA program is for.
@StiviGun1 On paper the SU30MKI is better then the current F15C. The Su30MKI is essentially the same aircraft to the SU35 with a few changes to the suite the needs for the Indian AF. Much the like the future PAKFA and HALFGFA. They'll be essentially the same aircraft the with some minor differences between them. Remember the SU30MKI and the HALFGFA are joint ventures between Russia and India. Probably the biggest variation for the HALFGFA is it will have two seat version.
@HighSpeedPFC Look, go get your facts right. The MKI, in its basic configuration, has poorer performance than the F-15. Much lower speed and a much poorer T/W ratio. TVC doesn't compensate for the poor T/W ratio. This, coupled with inexperienced pilots, lead to the Indians defeat in the 2008 Red Flag.
@StiviGun1 For the most part the SU30MKI and Su35s are a superior to the current F15Cs. The SU30MKI and 35 are both considered a gen 4.5 aircraft, in contrast the F15C is a gen 4. Though currently the USAF plans to upgrade current F15Cs and F15Es with AESA radars and HMHUD. Though for the most part SU30MKIs and 35s have a advantage over current F15C and Es. During combat simulations and training F22s are proving that there are only two aircraft now, stealth and targets.
@HighSpeedPFC Before u claim anymore that the Su-30 & Su-35 r so superior 2 the F-15, go check their specs. Both the Su-35 & the Su-30 have reach lower speeds & have poorer T/W ratios. So stop contradicting me on this 1.
As 4 the F-22, yeah, it may be very successful in CERTAIN SITUATIONS against 4 & 4.5 gen fighters. But in a real scenario, where it'll have 2 fight far away from home, its small range will provide a big drawback. + its ability 2 shoot down 4.5 gen fighters proves nothing. The
@StiviGun1 Whats really going to let down the F22 is its small numbers and the fact that they completely stopped all production to the F22. So from a maintenance stand point thats REALLY bad. Its not like older aircraft where theres a surplus being kept in a Arizona desert somewhere and you can chop those aicraft for spare parts. Another thing that will let the F22 down is the fact that its going to be paired with the less capable F35. If you want to talk about short legs on a fighter aircraft >
@HighSpeedPFC way it can prove itself is against another stealthy fighter. This will be either against the PAK FA or the J-XX. If the Indians get the PAK FA, they will most likely want 2 participate in exercises with the USAF. Then we will see what the F-22 can really do.
@StiviGun1 > you look at the F35. Its a great idea to have a smaller "cheaper" multirole stealth strike aircraft for all services and your allies but there are many things that the F35 lacks. Yes the F22 has shorter legs to the F15, but not to the point where it will greatly compromise its ability to perform its function. Just like the F15 the F22 can carry 2 external fuel tanks on its wings and can drop them, also air refuelable. Theres also other things that allows the F22 to preform its role.
@StiviGun1 F22 is fully capable of flying CAPs at ranges that the F15 could do. In its stealth config with everything internal the F22 will still have the traditional weight penalty like everything that flies but in contrast with everything internal the F22 doesnt really suffer as much as a drag penalty. Another factor is, believe it or not, the engines on the F22. The engines are more powerful but more efficient. What would take more power for the F15 to certain speed and altitude, the F22 >
@StiviGun1 > doesnt need out put as much power from its engines. Best analogy I can think is car engines. Take a 2.3L engine from the 70s and a 2.3L from the 90's and its astonishing. If the F22 needs to fly further or longer it can carry two external fuel tanks. F22 needs to get into a fight, it can jetison those two fuel tanks then its back to a stealth config. Supercruise is another huge factor. The only two aircraft I know for definate that can supercruise is the F22 and EF2000. >
@HighSpeedPFC Look, when the F-22 is carrying external fuel tanks, it's stealth is compromised. It can be detected from pretty long ranges, maybe without the pilot even knowing it. So its short range is a very big drawback as far as its tactical usage is concerned.
As 4 the F-35, my opinion is that is quite a good plane, in specially, the C variant. It'll have very big range & a big weapons payload. Its DAS & HMD systems make maneuverability irrelevant. In fact, I think that the F-35, with its
@StiviGun1 Hope you had a good holiday season and New Year. Im not going to debate the fact that the YF23 was better then the F22 in certain areas like stealth and speed. The YF22 and YF23 were built with same technology. The F22 was designed from the very start to be a stealth aircraft. Yes with external fuel tanks the F22 will lose its stealth but its over all shape and design will still give it a greatly smaller radar signature then non stealth aircraft. The F22's detection and >
@HighSpeedPFC integrated DAS & HMD has bigger chances of winning a dog-fight with the Su-35, than the F-22 has. It would've really been very good if they would've chosen the YF-23. It had a lot of advantages over the F-22, possibly even HMD system incorporated. It's perfectly reasonable 2 assume that since it didn't have TVC. It also had much bigger range & much better T/W ratio. It was better than the F-22 in many critical aspects.
@StiviGun1 > early warning systems are leaps ahead of anything flying out there now. Traditionally stealth designs have the draw back of shorter range with the exception of the B2. Though the F22s range will not compromise its overall effectiveness in a real world scenario. That DAS the F35 has, it pioneered by the F22. The HMD can only enhance the pilots effectiveness in a dogfight. It will not make manueverability obsolete. The only thing I can think of that will make manueverability >
@HighSpeedPFC Actually, the Northrop, with their YF-23 proved very well that stealth doesn't sacrifice range nor aerodynamics. The YF-23 was very aerodynamic actually, The Lockheed Martin is the one that makes people believe that. I don't know if they're doing this intentionally, or if they r just bad designers, but the fact is that everything they do is mediocre at best. What they do have though, is government connections.
@StiviGun1 > will be a directed energy weapon system like that ABL concept or possibly EML projectiles.
The F35 is a good concept but I think over all the F35 will fall short. I dislike the fact that the F35 is replacing already more capable or detecated aircraft like the A10, F18, and F16. The concept to make the F35 a swing and multirole aircraft is a good thing. Though overall the F35 has too much on its plate before it is even able to get to the table. Its actually cheaper to build more >
@HighSpeedPFC Like I said, the F-35 should be a good fighter. I also believe that it's not suited 2 replace the A-10, but I think it offers advantages over the F-18 & the F-16. If u say the F-22 should not be complemented by the F-35, I say that the Northrop's products should've been chose from the beginning, not Lockheed Martin's. The Northrop's JSF concept was outstanding, according 2 many experts. I know what u want 2 say, u present solutions on how 2 optimize the already existing purchases
@HighSpeedPFC but the truth is that the decision 2 go with he Lockheed's products will always present drawbacks for the USAF. The fact that weapons r being purchased in accordance with who knows who in the Congress & on the principle of money, not on the systems capabilities, will affect US military more & more. It'll end up purchasing shitty, expensive systems. It'll make some people very rich though & will be happening on the US tax payers money. I honestly would be PISSED if I were you.
@HighSpeedPFC But why do u say that maneuverability it's not made obsolete by the HMD & DAS? It's much easier 2 turn yr head than 2 turn the entire plane 2 get a lock on. I think the Yf-23 had such systems, that's probably why they didn't use TVC on it.
U know, the North American Aviation was an outstanding aircraft designer, but business interests brought it 2 bankrupting. The way I see it, the history is about 2 repeat itself with the Northrop Grumman's company.
@StiviGun1 You miss understand me with the YF23 and the 22. It was the overall shape of the YF23 that gave it better stealth, range, and speed. Remember both YF23s and 22s were using the General Electric and Pratt&Whitney engines at the time of there prototype and testing phase. The overall structual shape and design of the YF23 was superior to the YF22 I agree. The F35 is a good idea but when you look at whats flying out there now and what is proposed to fly in the future the F35 >
@StiviGun1 > The F35 will fall short. Neither the A, B, or C models of the F35s will have sufficient range to make it a capable frontline first strike aircraft. Further more in a air to air config while stealth the F35 will only carry 2 AIM-9s and 2 AMRAAM-120s. The only good thing that may save the F35 is its intentional design to carry external ordenances for non stealth missions. Even then the current F16s and F18s can carry larger payloads then the F35s.
@HighSpeedPFC Actually, the F-35 has longer range than the F-22. The C version will probably have twice the range of the F-22. & it can also carry a larger payload than both the F-16 & the F-18. Although I don't believe that the Lockheed Martin's products were the right choices, I still don't see any advantage the F-16 or F-18 have over the F-35. If it we would be talking abt 1 of the Super Tomcat variants instead of the F-18, than I guess I would agree that the Super Tomcat was better in every
@StiviGun1 > can already carry an eqaul load or more. Of course when you start putting bombs and missiles on any aircraft the performance will always drop. The F35 is being hailed as the first frontline first strike multirole aircraft with stealth capability. Unfortunately in a stealth config, the F35 will not have enough weapons or range to do the jobs that existing aircraft can already do. In a stealth config, you'll need 3 F35s to carry the same amount of weapons that one F16 or F18 already >
@StiviGun1 > already carry. Though the F35 has superior systems over the F16 and 18s, the F35 isnt as mission capable to take over the roles its being required to do. In terms of actual stealth, the F22 is known and confirmed to be more stealthy then the F35. Its speculated that the F22 has a signature of marbel while the F35 is the size of a golf ball. The in an A to A engagment the F22 and 35 will dominate in a BVR engagment. The F35 falls far behind the F22 in close A to A engagements.
@HighSpeedPFC Well, yeah, internally, the F-35 can carry a smaller payload than the F-16 & the F-18 can carry on their external pylons. But I think that 4 long range missions, the F-35 will always be fitted with weapons on its external pylons as well. As from range point of u, I already gave the specs wiki does. In range, the F-35 is better than both the aircraft is supposed to replace.
@StiviGun1 prototype phase. Yes its disconcerning to know that two not so friendly nations to the US are creating stealth aircraft and are slotted to sell them to every nation and military that has it in for the US. Even worse is that the F22 is banned from foriegn sales. There just wont be enough F22s or F35s out there to properly meet emerging threats.
@HighSpeedPFC Yes, they are only in their prototype phases, but saying from now that they won't be a challenge 4 the F-22 & F-35 is a big mistake. Not matter what u say, both the J-20 & the T-50 will be superior in terms of range, speed, maneuverability & probably firepower as well. All the F-22 has over them is stealth, but stealth detecting radar technology is rapidly developing so by the time J-20 & T-50 enter service, they very well may have such radars incorporated on them. If this happens,
@StiviGun1 > of the F22s engines are still considered classified. Do the math and thats up to 70000lbs total. That kind of power is crucial for acceleration and rate of climb. Also the longer you can sustain your airspeed in BFM the less chance you will stall.
TVC is worth its what you say, "extra weight". The X31 proved the viability of Thrust Vectoring. TVC is useful in both defensive and offensive roles in a dogfight. In a traditional dogfight and BFM, the pilot that can put their >
@HighSpeedPFC I know what u mean when u talk abt the F-22's engines. But then think that if the YF-23 was 7 tonnes lighter, in a full load configuration was more than 70 tonnes lighter, imagine what performances that aircraft had.
@StiviGun1 > general direction where the pilot is looking, the pilot still needs to place the intended target in a weapons envelope INFRONT of the aircraft. The area in which the AIM-9X can effectively engage is significantly wider then previous missiles before it, the weapons envelope is still infront of the aircraft. HMD and DAS does not allow you to engage a enemy at any direction. No missile can truely engage target directly off to the left or right of the aircraft.
@HighSpeedPFC Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. The DAS & HMD, coupled with the newer versions of the AIM-9X will provide the capability 2 engage in a much wider envelope. The current AIM-9X allows 4 an engagement of 90 degrees or eve more, which is well, outside the frontal side of the aircraft. Since the DAS is made 2 provide 360 degrees coverage, it's only natural 2 assume that they will increase the AIM-9X's engagement envelope. It would be foolish not 2 do it, in specially that they use
@HighSpeedPFC the F-35 as A-A fighter, role that was originally intended 4 the F-22. This can be done & without it, the F-35 will always be in a disadvantage over more maneuverable aircraft. They have 2 develop AIM-9X versions with bigger engagement envelope than 90 degrees.
@HighSpeedPFC the F-22's will lose even its last edge over the J-20 and T-50. So no matter how you put it & try 2 twist it, the conclusion that the YF-23 should've been selected is the right one. It didn't have TVC, but like I said, its basic agility was so outstanding that if equipped with HMD & DAS systems, it would've owned any TVC equipped fighter. It simply didn't need TVC, but if the need 4 maneuverability would've prove so great, it could've been built with TVC incorporated on it. But
@StiviGun1 >their aircraft in a weapons envelope first wins the fight. TVC greatly improves the aircraft maneuverability at both low and high speeds. TVC allows the aircraft to change its direction faster and pull turns tighter then conventional aircraft with out it. As I stated earlier the F22 has been known to pull snap turns that exceed 30degrees persecond and can sustain a turning raduis of 28degrees persecond. Further more TVC allows aircraft to not only pull high AoAs but also >
@HighSpeedPFC When u talk abt TVC, u completely rule out the new technologies, like HMD, DAS & high off bore sight missiles. The TVC is only useful in a plane that, in order 2 achieve a lock on, needs 2 TURN THE ENTIRE AIRCRAFT on order 2 point its nose 2 the enemy aircraft 2 achieve a lock on. With HMD & DAS, u don't need 2 point ur nose at the enemy aircraft, because u can do that from any angle & without even having 2 turn ur head. The TVC really offers more disadvantages than advantages. It
@StiviGun1 With DAS, HMD, and off boresight, the pilot can slave the targeting sensor and can track and target an enemy almost 90degrees off of the nose of the aircraft to the left or right. The pilot still needs to put the aircraft in a general position in which the missile can be launched and engage. The term "Off boresight" is a loose term. It doesnt allow you to engage an enemy aircraft in any direction, thats physically impossible. It only widens the area infront of the aircraft where you >
@HighSpeedPFC The new DAS is said 2 offer a 180 degrees engagement capability without having to turn the aircraft. That's what they wanna put on the F-35 and probably on the F-22 as well. With this type of technology, the YF-23, with its amazing T/W ratio, really didn't need TVC, which brings more disadvantages than advantages, in my opinion. HMD & DAS really do offer much more advantages than TVC, but u have 2 have an aircraft with very good basic performances & the YF-23 was such an aircraft.
@HighSpeedPFC Well, even if what u say is true, that the pilot still has 2 put the aircraft in a general position in which the missile can be launched & engage, the DAS & HMD still offers great advantages, since the pilot doesn't have 2 make 2 many maneuvers 2 achieve a lock on. Let's say they won't bring the AIM-9X engagement envelope 2 180 degrees, but only 2 120 degrees, or 150 degrees & that will still be a huge advantage, even over the TVC equipped fighters.
@StiviGun1 can effectively engage the enemy aircraft. The AIM-9X can accelerate up mach2.5 and generally has an effective range of 6-8 miles. At that speed, it is impossible for the missile to pull a full 180 and engage a threat directly at the 6o'clock of the defensive aircraft. It cant fly off the pylon and pull a hard right or left turn to engage the enemy directly to your left or right. I state it again...
@HighSpeedPFC The DAS system planned 4 the F-35 has a coverage of 360 degrees around the aircraft & now they r working on giving the AIM-9X a 180 degrees coverage. I've read this somewhere but I don't remember where, so u can check it on Janes Defense or the other site u told me about. Also, this technology will only get better & better so the TVC only equipped fighters will be in a disadvantage when faced with such fighters.
@StiviGun1 ... the pilot that can put their aircraft in a weapons envelope first wins the fight.
The YF-23 and 22 were using existing technologies at the time and both were test bed platforms for current stealth and avionics technology now used today in the F35 and F22. Though many aspects of the testing are still guarded as classified, no two aircraft were truely leaps and bounds ahead of each other in terms of technology; they were equal.
@HighSpeedPFC Well, like I said, there's almost nothing known abt the YF-23's radars, sensors & avionics in general. The Northrop did disclosed any type of information abt this, that's why I think it's incorrect 2 assume that the F-22 & YF-23 were equal in terms of avionics. In fact, there r some experts that say the YF-23's radar was more advanced than the F-22's. But like I said, there's practically nothing known about its avionics.
@HighSpeedPFC increase the aircraft's weight & increases the maintenance costs. No matter what u say, the YF-23 was, from many aspects, easier 2 maintain. The YF-23, with its outstanding basic agility & performances, if coupled with HMD and DAS systems, needed no TVC 2 take out any TVC equipped fighters. Also, take into account that it had much better stealth than the F-22, so the chances 4 a dog-ffight occur r much smaller than with the F-22. Also, 2 assume that Northrop would've used the same
@HighSpeedPFC RAMs is incorrect. The truth is, almost nothing is known abt the YF-23. The Northrop has kept secret a lot of its features. The fact that it was much more aerodynamic than the F-22 meant less heat stress on the RAMs, thus less maintenance in this area. 2 say that the YF-23's maintenance would've cost just as much as the B-2 or F-117 or even the F-22 without knowing almost nothing abt it, is a mistake. I don't think that its maintenance would've cost as much as the F-22's.
@HighSpeedPFC With DAS & HMD systems, U DON'T NEED 2 PUT UR AIRCRAFT IN A WEAPONS ENVELOPE, because having these systems, not matter what position u r in, u will always be in a weapons envelope. U can launch ur missiles from every angle u want. So TVC really is not so useful as u say. It is only useful on an aircraft that, in order 2 have a lock on, it needs 2 point its nose 2 the enemy's aircraft.
@HighSpeedPFC would've been a waste of time & it would've seriously affected some of the aircraft's crucial performances, like speed & T/W ratio, because movable nozzles increase an aircraft's weight.
@StiviGun1 > also sustain those high AoAs with less chance of stalling. F22s advanced fly by wire allows the F22 to be extremely departure resistant especially in post stall maneuvering and extreme AoAs.
SA is often a make or break factor in any engagement. The sooner you can see and identify a said threat, the sooner you will be able to asses, act, and engage. The F22s overall low observable design with its enhanced radar, detection, and early warning gives the F22s the ability to >
@StiviGun1 Many people have it in their heads that the DAS and JHMD guarantees an instant kill, it doesn't. When comming to the merge the two opposing aircraft will often come at each other at speeds well over 600kmph. Most close in dog fights often do not last more then 20 seconds. Stuff like sensor fusion, DAS, JHMD and off bore engagement only enhances the pilots ability to engage. If the opposing aircraft is stealthed, jamming, and pulling turns so fast and tight that all your systems cant >
@HighSpeedPFC Well, I don't know how maneuverable the F-35 is, it was not designed as an A-A fighter, which is why is a bad idea 2 replace dedicated A-A fighters. But I believe that the YF-23, if it would've had DAS or HMD, it would've owned any TVC equipped fighter. The F-35 probably doesn't have the required performances, but the YF-23 had. I'm really looking forward 2 see how the F-35 will perform in A-A combat against the F-22.
@StiviGun1 The F35 doesnt have the agility, speed, or thrust the F22 has. Its said the F35 agility is equal to the F18. I agree with you about the F14D. They didnt make a proper replacement for it and there is nothing out there in the USN that truely fills that role of long range intercept and fleet defense. The Super Hornets are not a proper replacement, no where near. As a multirole strike aircraft yes, as a dedicated Air to Air, no. It doesnt even carry the AIM-54.
@HighSpeedPFC The new proposed Super Tomcat variants, like the Attack Super Tomcat 21, had very advanced ground strike capabilities as well. So, in reality, the Super Hornet never had anything on the Tomcat. The Super Tomcat, in any of its several proposed variants, was far above the F-18E/F in every aspect, not just A-A combat.
It's cool to upgrade the current fighter designs,so countries that have ordered these planes can upgrade and save some money. The 5th gen fighters are more advanced,but,I'm getting suspicious of some of the sub contractors that have anything to do with American defense. I think the Chinese may be sabotaging the industry with phony contractors,maybe I'm just paranoid,but ,you never know.
jay55also 3 weeks ago
Internal weapon bay for the Eagle? Nice :)
OrlandoObra 1 month ago
So is the Air Force getting the SE or are they looking at?
MrZw69 1 month ago
@MrZw69 Boeing is marketing this to friendly foreign countries, like South Korea. The RoK already has F-15Ks, which are also getting-on in age like US F-15Cs. As for the USAF, they're not officially looking at it, yet.
RingSight91 1 week ago
the sweet sound of the P&W F100 engines!!!!!!
Raymund925 2 months ago
strait away i see an f15e not an f15se video maker is a cock
cheersing4u 2 months ago
@cheersing4u All it is is an F-15E with stealth capabilities. So yes, you see a MODIFIED version of an F-15E
tbarron95 1 month ago
the f-35 will soon be canceled,air force should start bying f-15SE
nic190 3 months ago
aren't the tail suppose to be canted outwards
zerox42100 3 months ago
Will it have thrust-vectoring nozzles like the F-22?
kempmt1 3 months ago
I doubt this project will get anywhere! This is obviously intended for export purposes, and for winning some of the customers lost to Russian aerospace domination over the last decade. Only, with the new Russian PAK FA 50 costing a mere $50 million, customers may wanna wait an extra year or two, and purchase the second only to F-22B aircraft out there.
tropickman 3 months ago
It occures to me that Boeing probably could've bought the rights to the YF-23 instead of making Silent Eagles. Except for thrust vectoring the YF-23 was vastly superior to the F-22 we know today. And with most of the R&D already done it would be a far cheaper alternative still! Modifications not withstanding.
bujoun76 3 months ago
@bujoun76 "...vastly superior to the F-22 we know today"? Wow, what a ridiculous comment. You incredibly misinformed YF-23 fanboys crack me up. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way, enjoy your little fantasy!
Gottisanidiot 1 month ago
@Gottisanidiot Of cousre im a "23" fan boy - it was superior! The YF-23 was much lighter than the Raptor. It was aerodynamically superior, had a better radar cross section, and had a brutally high thrust to weight ratio. Sounds superior to me. Im sure thrust vectoring would've come sooner or later. Raw performance isn't what killed the YF-23. As usual it starts and ends with politcs. Facts are easy to find if you take a minute (or 2) to look for them! Be warned - it can be heart breaking.
bujoun76 1 month ago
@bujoun76 The YF-23 had a smaller RCS (if you understand what that means). But aerodynamically superior? You're a fucking idiot. During the evaluations, the YF-22 was far more agile at all speeds, faster with burner, had better avionics, was easier and cheaper to maintain and produce. Hell, the YF-23 had outdated F-15E avionics and couldn't even get the weapons bay doors to work to launch missiles. Just a few accurate facts that even a dumb nigger like you should be able to find on the web.
Gottisanidiot 1 month ago
@Gottisanidiot I actually agree with most of what you had to say and I would've argued a bit more on your research but now that you lowered your arguments, to such a low level, I dont see any reason to go on. Racisism is an ugly thing and I think you're a better person than this. I wont respond in kind because I dont hate you. I also wont be reading anything you have to offer from now. I feel sorry for you.
bujoun76 1 month ago
@bujoun76 Racisism? Hell, you can't even spell racism. Look, I can't help it that you're fucking stupid. And don't blame your ignorance on racism.
Gottisanidiot 1 month ago
Jezus Christ!!! The US has how many current stealth fighters? Plus this one?
Raymund925 4 months ago
wonderful
antivari100 4 months ago
Fox 3!
TheGregEgg 4 months ago
3. 2. 1. MACH 3!!!
SR71U2ube 4 months ago
@SR71U2ube mach 6 lol
razor11079 3 months ago
simply amazing, when the door closes, it looks like the door wasn't even there in the first place, Boeing designed the Silent Eagle to be absolutely perfect!
BennDuong 4 months ago
door weapons bay open too long. it's exactly what caused the f117 to be caught on radars and shot down. f22 bay is open for less than a second. this thing is boeing's pathetic attempt to redeem itself for losing the fighter contracts.
JadedGrey 5 months ago
@JadedGrey This was just a test to make sure everything works the way its suppose to. So the pilots don't care at that point about who can pick him up on radar. You think a F-22 pilot flying at air shows leaving his bays open so peole can see is worrying who can spot him on radar?
nmosely1988 5 months ago
@JadedGrey Keep in mind this was a test. That's why they kept the bay open for so long. I'm sure production versions will have a faster door actuation.
stuntmanmike37 4 months ago
@JadedGrey f117 was shot down because of poor mission planning and adaptive tactics by the serbian air defenses. and lots and lots of random missile launches. would've been shot down even if it never opened its doors.
oldfrend 4 months ago
this is the proto type using the first f-15e.to test the missile doors for the f-15SE.
nic190 8 months ago 7
this is bull! the SE has angled out Vertical stabilizers! this looks like an E model with the recessed weapons bays.
sirfighterace 9 months ago
@sirfighterace This was only a test of the new weapons bay. The actual Silent Eagle has yet to fly.
stuntmanmike37 4 months ago
I wonder if the F-15SE will have all the jaggy surfaces like the other stealth us birds?
ASpatha 9 months ago
@ASpatha B-2 and F-22 don't have all the facets. they have smooth stealth.
sirfighterace 9 months ago
THIS IS NOT F15SE ! IT LOOK LIKE F15E WITH WITH DEVICE
oded999191 9 months ago
half-stealthy?
steamburn123 10 months ago
osama didn't see that coming!
jdnic1 10 months ago
Doesn't really look all that stealthy.
stalkingalizee 10 months ago
@stalkingalizee its reduced radar and thermal signature for "semi stealth" so its difficult to see on old and outdated radar systems like the ones momar ghadaffi has :)
asianiinvasion 9 months ago
@asianiinvasion Would have been nice to have those over Libya, might have saved an F-15. :)
stalkingalizee 9 months ago
@stalkingalizee yeah true. but the one that crashed in Libya was in my opinion downed by mechanical failure because if it really was shot down, the engine nozzles would have been annihilated by a heat seaking missile locking on to them. but when you see the video of Libyan kids playing on it, the engine exhaust nozzles and most of the airframe is relatively intact. but either way it was an embarrassment.
asianiinvasion 9 months ago
@asianiinvasion Could have been AA guns... no way to know for sure.
stalkingalizee 9 months ago
@stalkingalizee indeed
asianiinvasion 9 months ago
@asianiinvasion
It was not a downed because of enemy fire, it was really mechanical failure, so its not a matter of opinion and it really isnt an embarrisment, this stuff happens too all the aircrafts all the time, esspecially the fact that even the strike eagle is about 25 years old.
galatasarayfan67 9 months ago
@galatasarayfan67 yeah and so many F16s crashed already but they're 35 years old!
asianiinvasion 9 months ago
There's going to be silent flankers soon. :)
vfIskullangel 10 months ago
If the world can't stop the F-15. How the hell will it stop the F-15 SE? This Jet is Bad Ass.
anykinewhat 10 months ago 23
@anykinewhat F-15 does have a reputation as the most deadly fighter in the world.
jay55also 3 weeks ago
Was this really a F-15SE?
clericboy289 11 months ago
@clericboy289 No, not a real SE, the fins aren't canted outward.
fundiebasher 10 months ago
@fundiebasher true and another thing is that the fuel tanks are larger then the SE's and even then, it's slightly more balkier then the SE
AwsomeMegawolf 10 months ago
@clericboy289
Yes, you can tell it from the other f15 varieties because of the internal weapons bay (among other things), it is amazing how when that door closes - it looks like it isn't even there to begin with.
NickV801 10 months ago
@clericboy289 YEAH
FuzorDragon480 10 months ago
@clericboy289 No. What they're doing is testing the prototype of the conformal weapons bay (CWB) that would go on an F-15SE on a regular F-15E test bed.
rb21122b 10 months ago
There goes my house!!!
bunny153649 11 months ago
WOW!
tinpilot 1 year ago
NICE!
ChainAlgorithm0 1 year ago
Why did they not do the canted tail fins?
flatbill2 1 year ago
Russia will need Silent Flankers....
vfIskullangel 1 year ago
I just saw news and I heard south korea want a buy a F-15SE, and F-35
well... what's the different between F-15E, and F-15SE?
and isn't F-35 better than F-15SE?
answer me!
P.S sorry for the bad grammar....I'm south korean...so....
you know... I'm sucks at grammar...
Howard25247 1 year ago
@Howard25247 among other things, the fuel tanks used in the F-15E where redesigned as weapon bays, it has a canted tail like any 5th gen fighter, imroved avionics and reduced RCS, its pretty much a cheap way to make a 4.5 fighter.
delflinger 1 year ago
@Howard25247 F-15SE is like a Gen 4.5 fighter and the F-35 is a true Gen 5. I am sure Korea is strongly considering the F-15SE because of the 90% commonality with there current F-15Ks and the undefeated combat proven airframe. It just ads a stealthy edge and the new Active Scanned Array Radar to an already great fighter for cheaper than the alternative. F-15E is for strike and SE air dominance. But the F-35 would be an all new airframe and common across many NATO countries but more expensive.
flatbill2 1 year ago
Hmm must be a testbed F15 unless they dropped the outward angled tailfins ?
Gripen90 1 year ago
Great video!!
sufa256 1 year ago
The F22 can do snap turn of a 30-32degrees persecond turn and can sustain 28 degree persecond turn. The Su-35 can only maintain a 23degree persecond turn. The F22 is slightly smaller then the F-15. In contrast the SU-35 is larger and heaveir then the F-15. Because of this the SU35 has a larger turning radius and smaller AoA then the F22. The F22 is vastly superior in BVR engagements then the SU35. In close the SU35 and F22 will be an ALMOST even match, but the F22 still has a bit of a advantage
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
WHoa whoa, now we've gotten into a huge disagreement. The SU35s are caparable in a small way to the F22 but no where as good. The F35 agility is as good or slightly better then its Gen 4 counterparts like the F16 which is pretty much the standard for single engine light weight aircraft for NATO. Yes the F35 has thrust vectoring but only in the F35B varient which will only use it during Short takes offs and vertical landings, NOT for actual flight or combat.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
that plane should have thrust vectoring
Wawaweewaj 1 year ago
The Silent Eagle would be a great alternative 4 the F-22 as an aerial superiority fighter, since the F-22's production was stopped. But I have a question about the aircraft shown here: doesn't the Silent eagle have canted vertical tail fins. The aircraft shown in this clip doesn't feature such fins.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 it probably an early stage prototype. have to say though, boeing seems very lazy. this looks like just a normal f15e with swapped conformal fuel tanks for weapons bay. and only 4 missiles? c'mon
vk45de 1 year ago
@vk45de Yeah, 4 missiles inside. The thing is that u can't make a fighter that has long range, high speed, big weapons payload and stealth in the same time. Well, u can, but this would cost too much in US. The Russians have done it with their PAK FA. That's why I think F-22 should've never been developed. They should've build upgraded F-15 variants. A fighter that has less than 3000km range with 2 external fuel tanks, which compromise all it stealth, it's not an air superiority fighter.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 the F-22 is actually needed, though its has been watered down from what the USAF wanted ,it's still going to be very effective. the issue with F-15 is age.
those airframes are very old right now and were built crudely by today's standard. even giving TVC and new avionics ,gets' some more life outta it but utlimately you still will need a new design and airframe
verdebusterAP 1 year ago
@verdebusterAP You can build, new, improved F-15 airframes. It will still cost less because it's the same airframe, you don't have to make all the necessary documentation and research for a new one. The F-22, like I said, has a very small range. It has all the avionics & stealth, but it simply has a too short range. I mean, if u want the aircraft 2 operate at its full potential, have 2 put 2 external fuel tanks, on it, which will compromise its stealth. The F-22 is just not good.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 where are u getting ur information? the f-22 is just not good? are fucking serious...
stolly27 1 year ago
@stolly27 From an aircraft that costs as much as the F-22, I have a lot of expectations. Its small range makes it unsuitable for its main role as air superiority fighter. Not to mention interdiction missions, which require an even bigger range. The F-22 offers absolutely no advantage. The fact that it's stealth is not an advantage. Radars that detect stealthy planes already exist & the technology will be improved more & more.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 I'd like to think that 20years and billions of dollars later wasn't used to make a useless aircraft. What we know about the F-22 is all we're EVER going to know about it. Theres alot more to the F-22 we dont know about it. If it was such a "useless" aircraft why did the US ban foriegn sales of the F-22? The US has 20 years experience with stealth tech. Everytime F-22s go to Red Flag in Neveda or Alaska, F-22s don't just hold their own but spank all others.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC I never said the F-22 is not good, I said that it doesn't offer performances equal to its costs. In other words, is not cost effective. I honestly don;t know what could they not reveal about it & what secret capabilities might have? I mean, it's not like it shoots lasers, for Christ sake... U can't say that the F-22 can actually fly at over 3 mach & that in fact it has a 3x bigger range than they officially claim. There may be SOME untold capabilities, but not "a lot", like you
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 Im not saying it has lasers yet there are things about the F-22 that are a well guarded secret about it. The exact max thrust is still classified yet most sources put at about 35000lbs per engine. The Max speed is greatly debated. Officially the USAF claims mach 1.8 yet says the F-22 is more the capable to do mach 2+. There are alot of guarded material and specs about the aircraft we don't know about.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, if the F-22's speed and range are higher than they officially declare, then it's fine. But somehow, I have the feeling that it's not.
And the speed they claim it can reach is mach 2.5, but in the same time they say that the max speed is 2410 km/h, which mach 2... This looks like a self contradiction to me.
As 4 those guarded and secret materials about it, i'd really like to see what it is.
The figures that I now, say these: the F-22 is heavier by about 3 tonnes and its
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC engines are as powerful as the Yf-23's, but the YF-23, being lighter, it has a better thrust/weight ratio. The YF-23 has a bigger wing surface, which helps it in 2 areas: more fuel - bigger range, and better climb rate. It also had better stealth. It was probably equipped with HMS & the AIM-9X, which totally eliminated the need 4 supermaneuverability.
The F-22's only advantage, as official figures show, it's only its supermaneuverability, but you'll see that the F-35, with its HUD
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC and DAS plus, the AIM-9X missile, will defeat the supermaneuverable F-22 in a dog-fight every time.And the F-35 is a much poorer performer than the YF-23. Imagine what the YF-23 could've done. My opinion is that, unless they completely lied about the F-22's max speed and range, they made the wrong choice. Honestly, I don't see what improvements they can bring to the F-22 to compensate for its short range and its pretty low speed.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 You will ALWAYS need an aircaft that is nimble, quick, and has guns. The US learned that harsh reality during the early stages of Vietnam. The US made up for that with the F18, F16, F15, and F14. The F22 can fire its missiles at high angles of attack. Currently the only other aircraft out there that can do that to my knowledge is the EF Typhoon. Having a weapon that can shoot "off bore sight" will increase you effectiveness in close combat. Thats no garauntee that the weapon will hit.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC The technology has evolved a lot since Vietnam. Furthermore, the F-22 is not agile enough to outmaneuver a SU-35. An F-35 with its HUD and DAS has much bigger chances against the very nimble Su-35 than the F-22. Missiles reach much higher speeds & they r much more agile than any aircraft.
As 4 shooting missiles at high AoA capability, the Russian Su-27 & its variants & the MiG-29 can do that too. In fact, the F-22 can do what the Russians were doing in their Su-27 and MiG-29 20
StiviGun1 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC years ago. Besides, the YF-23's bigger wing surface and mush better thrust/weight ratio would've given it a much better climbing rate and turning rate than the F-22. The F-22's thrust/weight ratio is not that good.
As 4 maneuverability, what is easier: having to turn the entire plane to get a lock on or just to turn your head? In F-35, with its distributed aperture system, you don't even have to turn your head anymore.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC one of them.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 but now belly of your aircraft is flat, your nose is pointed up, essentially you are now one huge airbrake. Beyond a certain AoA an aircraft will go into a stall. F22s Su35s F35s Typhoons all have their AoA limit. Because of their relative size SU35s cant push more then a 25degree persecond turn without stalling. Vector thrust improves the agility of your aircraft but it doesnt make it stall proof.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Actually, the Su-27, even though much larger than the F-15, has a better turning rate and a better climbing rate. Its design is better. Wing design, control surfaces, and a lot of other factors contribute to an aircraft's performances.
And something else, the Su-27 performs the Cobra maneuver, which is an over 100 degrees AoA maneuver, but it manages 2 execute it very fast, it brings its nose up in less than a second and it doesn't get into a stall.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 The Pukachev Cobra looks nice but in actual practice is actually one of the worse things you can do. That manuever only works when the aircraft is flying straight and level which in a close in dog fight is something pilots NEVER do. Second thing is it might look good for a 1 on 1 confrentation but theres always the wing man to worry about. Yes the F14 could turn as good as its F18 at lower speeds but it couldnt stay in that turn as long because of its size.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC I was just demonstrating that an aircraft can be large, but in the same time very agile and maneuverable. This Su-27 is a very good example of that. The Cobra maneuver may not be useful in a dog-fight, but it shows that the Su-27, despite being so large, it can execute very high AoAs, much higher than the F-15, even though the F-15 is smaller and lighter. Also, my point was that the Su-27 can pull much more than 25 degrees per second without going into a stall.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 The Cobra is essentially a controlled stall manuever. The SU35 is too heavy and its too big to stay in a turning fight with an F22. The SU35 will struggle to maintain air speed and power to stay within an F22s turn. Though really I dont think a Sukhoi or a Mig will ever get that close to an F22. For the PAKFA Im not putting much faith in it. It looks good but even Russia is admitting that it wont be as advanced or stealthy. Last I heard, India is thinking of dropping out of the >>
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 >> Dropping out of the PAKFA because they're afraid that it may become too expensive and are opting to purchase the EuroFighter. Also by the time Russia puts out their first fleet of PAKFA's the F22 will already have a significant lead on them in terms of upgrades and pilot experience. Personnally I still think the USAF should have gotten their original order of 330 aircraft. 187 just isn't enough. Then complimented with an equally small number of F35s is stupid. That is unless >>
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 >> unless the USAF further proceeds further developments in UAVs and UCAVs like the Boeing X45 and Lockheeds Sabre UCAV concept.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, the Su-35 is actually lighter than the F-22. Couple this with its 3D TVC & u will get an aircraft more than capable of getting into a turning fight with the F-22. In fact, it will be superior 2 the F-22 in this aspect.
I never heard abt India thinking of dropping out of the PAK FA program, they invested a lot in it so I don;t think they're gonna do that.
As 4 the F-35 numbers, from what I know, they increased the F-35 numbers they intend to purchase. But the F-22's numbers
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC reduction was indeed a mistake. even though I believe that purchasing it over the YF-23 was a mistake.
As for UCAVs, that's what I said too. The US should focus on UCAV development, and leave the manned fighters behind. In fact, my opinion is that they should also drastically reduce the F-35 procurement and focus the resources on UCAV development.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 Back in 2008 India brought there SU30MKIs to the Red Flag exercise at Nellis AFB in Neveda. The SU30MKI is pretty much the export version of the SU35. At the end of the exercise the SU30MKIs proved to be not as capable as the F22. The SU35s do not have the same capabilities as the F22, might come close in some areas but in most; nowhere near. India wont pull out of thee PAKFA but there was talk about if the PAKFA goes too much over budget, the Indian AF will look at >>
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 >> cheaper more readily available aircraft with comparable abilities like the Eurofighter Typhoon, the French Rafale, and the Saab JAS-39 Gripen. Though I believe developments of the UCAV should proceed, there will have to be a look at changing RoEs. I dont believe we should make them completely autonomous, we should always keep the human element in it. I believe there will always be a need for manned aircraft. I believe UCAVs should supplement or compliemtn but not take over.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC 1: the Su-30MKI is nothing like the Su-35. In fact, it has poorer performance than the F-15 as well. It has lower speed, poorer T/W ratio. So th3 2008 Red Flag doesn't prove anything about the Su-35.
As 4 India dropping of the PAK FA, give me a viable source that says that. None of the aircraft u mentioned can't compare with the PAK FA. I don't know where u get ur info, but u r mistaking. India hasn't pulled out from the PAK FA program. In fact, they r working at their own PAK FA
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC version called the HAL FGFA.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 I get my info mainly from Jane's Defence. The SU30MKI is incredibly similar to the SU35 with the acception of the vecotor thrusting. While the SU35 has a 3Dem VT, the SU30MKI uses a VT similar to the F22 but still not the same as F22's. Many of the capabilities of the SU30MKI and the Su35 are almost the same.
The PAKFA and that HALFGFA is a essentially the same program. Its a joint venture between Russia and India, one aicraft is for India the other for Russia.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Go read what the MKI's performances are and then compare them with the Su-35's and F-15's. You'll see that it is inferior in speed and T/W ratio. Poor T/W ratio means poorer turning & climbing rates.
As 4 HAL FGFA, that is A PAKA FA'S VERSION that will be a modified 4 the Indians requirements. It won't be exactly like the PAK FA. It's not even built yet, it's still in the designing stage.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 a dude highspeedpfc is right he knows what hes talking about
oTECHNETIUMo 1 year ago
@oTECHNETIUMo Sure.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@oTECHNETIUMo And how did you get to this conclusion? Based on what arguments and facts?
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 The other program soley an Indian initiative is the MRCA Competition held by India. Though mainly a program to replace India's aging aircraft with more capable gen 4.5 aircraft, it is considered to be a fall back to the PAKFA / HALFGFA program.
Just correction on earlier what I mean to say is that the Su35 has fully rotating nozzles for it vector thrust.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Maybe India, just like Russia, doesn't intend 2 rely only on stealth aircraft. Maybe it wants 2 use the same doctrine as the Russians 2 combine stealthy aircraft with conventional 4.5, very capable from performances point of view, fighters. Maybe that's what that MRCA program is for.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 On paper the SU30MKI is better then the current F15C. The Su30MKI is essentially the same aircraft to the SU35 with a few changes to the suite the needs for the Indian AF. Much the like the future PAKFA and HALFGFA. They'll be essentially the same aircraft the with some minor differences between them. Remember the SU30MKI and the HALFGFA are joint ventures between Russia and India. Probably the biggest variation for the HALFGFA is it will have two seat version.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Look, go get your facts right. The MKI, in its basic configuration, has poorer performance than the F-15. Much lower speed and a much poorer T/W ratio. TVC doesn't compensate for the poor T/W ratio. This, coupled with inexperienced pilots, lead to the Indians defeat in the 2008 Red Flag.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 For the most part the SU30MKI and Su35s are a superior to the current F15Cs. The SU30MKI and 35 are both considered a gen 4.5 aircraft, in contrast the F15C is a gen 4. Though currently the USAF plans to upgrade current F15Cs and F15Es with AESA radars and HMHUD. Though for the most part SU30MKIs and 35s have a advantage over current F15C and Es. During combat simulations and training F22s are proving that there are only two aircraft now, stealth and targets.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Before u claim anymore that the Su-30 & Su-35 r so superior 2 the F-15, go check their specs. Both the Su-35 & the Su-30 have reach lower speeds & have poorer T/W ratios. So stop contradicting me on this 1.
As 4 the F-22, yeah, it may be very successful in CERTAIN SITUATIONS against 4 & 4.5 gen fighters. But in a real scenario, where it'll have 2 fight far away from home, its small range will provide a big drawback. + its ability 2 shoot down 4.5 gen fighters proves nothing. The
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 Whats really going to let down the F22 is its small numbers and the fact that they completely stopped all production to the F22. So from a maintenance stand point thats REALLY bad. Its not like older aircraft where theres a surplus being kept in a Arizona desert somewhere and you can chop those aicraft for spare parts. Another thing that will let the F22 down is the fact that its going to be paired with the less capable F35. If you want to talk about short legs on a fighter aircraft >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC way it can prove itself is against another stealthy fighter. This will be either against the PAK FA or the J-XX. If the Indians get the PAK FA, they will most likely want 2 participate in exercises with the USAF. Then we will see what the F-22 can really do.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > you look at the F35. Its a great idea to have a smaller "cheaper" multirole stealth strike aircraft for all services and your allies but there are many things that the F35 lacks. Yes the F22 has shorter legs to the F15, but not to the point where it will greatly compromise its ability to perform its function. Just like the F15 the F22 can carry 2 external fuel tanks on its wings and can drop them, also air refuelable. Theres also other things that allows the F22 to preform its role.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 F22 is fully capable of flying CAPs at ranges that the F15 could do. In its stealth config with everything internal the F22 will still have the traditional weight penalty like everything that flies but in contrast with everything internal the F22 doesnt really suffer as much as a drag penalty. Another factor is, believe it or not, the engines on the F22. The engines are more powerful but more efficient. What would take more power for the F15 to certain speed and altitude, the F22 >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > doesnt need out put as much power from its engines. Best analogy I can think is car engines. Take a 2.3L engine from the 70s and a 2.3L from the 90's and its astonishing. If the F22 needs to fly further or longer it can carry two external fuel tanks. F22 needs to get into a fight, it can jetison those two fuel tanks then its back to a stealth config. Supercruise is another huge factor. The only two aircraft I know for definate that can supercruise is the F22 and EF2000. >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Look, when the F-22 is carrying external fuel tanks, it's stealth is compromised. It can be detected from pretty long ranges, maybe without the pilot even knowing it. So its short range is a very big drawback as far as its tactical usage is concerned.
As 4 the F-35, my opinion is that is quite a good plane, in specially, the C variant. It'll have very big range & a big weapons payload. Its DAS & HMD systems make maneuverability irrelevant. In fact, I think that the F-35, with its
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 Hope you had a good holiday season and New Year. Im not going to debate the fact that the YF23 was better then the F22 in certain areas like stealth and speed. The YF22 and YF23 were built with same technology. The F22 was designed from the very start to be a stealth aircraft. Yes with external fuel tanks the F22 will lose its stealth but its over all shape and design will still give it a greatly smaller radar signature then non stealth aircraft. The F22's detection and >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC I had a pretty goo holidays season & New Year, hank you :) I hope it was the same for you. Happy new year :)
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC integrated DAS & HMD has bigger chances of winning a dog-fight with the Su-35, than the F-22 has. It would've really been very good if they would've chosen the YF-23. It had a lot of advantages over the F-22, possibly even HMD system incorporated. It's perfectly reasonable 2 assume that since it didn't have TVC. It also had much bigger range & much better T/W ratio. It was better than the F-22 in many critical aspects.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
Comment removed
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > early warning systems are leaps ahead of anything flying out there now. Traditionally stealth designs have the draw back of shorter range with the exception of the B2. Though the F22s range will not compromise its overall effectiveness in a real world scenario. That DAS the F35 has, it pioneered by the F22. The HMD can only enhance the pilots effectiveness in a dogfight. It will not make manueverability obsolete. The only thing I can think of that will make manueverability >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Actually, the Northrop, with their YF-23 proved very well that stealth doesn't sacrifice range nor aerodynamics. The YF-23 was very aerodynamic actually, The Lockheed Martin is the one that makes people believe that. I don't know if they're doing this intentionally, or if they r just bad designers, but the fact is that everything they do is mediocre at best. What they do have though, is government connections.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > will be a directed energy weapon system like that ABL concept or possibly EML projectiles.
The F35 is a good concept but I think over all the F35 will fall short. I dislike the fact that the F35 is replacing already more capable or detecated aircraft like the A10, F18, and F16. The concept to make the F35 a swing and multirole aircraft is a good thing. Though overall the F35 has too much on its plate before it is even able to get to the table. Its actually cheaper to build more >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Like I said, the F-35 should be a good fighter. I also believe that it's not suited 2 replace the A-10, but I think it offers advantages over the F-18 & the F-16. If u say the F-22 should not be complemented by the F-35, I say that the Northrop's products should've been chose from the beginning, not Lockheed Martin's. The Northrop's JSF concept was outstanding, according 2 many experts. I know what u want 2 say, u present solutions on how 2 optimize the already existing purchases
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC but the truth is that the decision 2 go with he Lockheed's products will always present drawbacks for the USAF. The fact that weapons r being purchased in accordance with who knows who in the Congress & on the principle of money, not on the systems capabilities, will affect US military more & more. It'll end up purchasing shitty, expensive systems. It'll make some people very rich though & will be happening on the US tax payers money. I honestly would be PISSED if I were you.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC But why do u say that maneuverability it's not made obsolete by the HMD & DAS? It's much easier 2 turn yr head than 2 turn the entire plane 2 get a lock on. I think the Yf-23 had such systems, that's probably why they didn't use TVC on it.
U know, the North American Aviation was an outstanding aircraft designer, but business interests brought it 2 bankrupting. The way I see it, the history is about 2 repeat itself with the Northrop Grumman's company.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 You miss understand me with the YF23 and the 22. It was the overall shape of the YF23 that gave it better stealth, range, and speed. Remember both YF23s and 22s were using the General Electric and Pratt&Whitney engines at the time of there prototype and testing phase. The overall structual shape and design of the YF23 was superior to the YF22 I agree. The F35 is a good idea but when you look at whats flying out there now and what is proposed to fly in the future the F35 >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > The F35 will fall short. Neither the A, B, or C models of the F35s will have sufficient range to make it a capable frontline first strike aircraft. Further more in a air to air config while stealth the F35 will only carry 2 AIM-9s and 2 AMRAAM-120s. The only good thing that may save the F35 is its intentional design to carry external ordenances for non stealth missions. Even then the current F16s and F18s can carry larger payloads then the F35s.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Actually, the F-35 has longer range than the F-22. The C version will probably have twice the range of the F-22. & it can also carry a larger payload than both the F-16 & the F-18. Although I don't believe that the Lockheed Martin's products were the right choices, I still don't see any advantage the F-16 or F-18 have over the F-35. If it we would be talking abt 1 of the Super Tomcat variants instead of the F-18, than I guess I would agree that the Super Tomcat was better in every
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > can already carry an eqaul load or more. Of course when you start putting bombs and missiles on any aircraft the performance will always drop. The F35 is being hailed as the first frontline first strike multirole aircraft with stealth capability. Unfortunately in a stealth config, the F35 will not have enough weapons or range to do the jobs that existing aircraft can already do. In a stealth config, you'll need 3 F35s to carry the same amount of weapons that one F16 or F18 already >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC aspect, except stealth, but not the F-18.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > already carry. Though the F35 has superior systems over the F16 and 18s, the F35 isnt as mission capable to take over the roles its being required to do. In terms of actual stealth, the F22 is known and confirmed to be more stealthy then the F35. Its speculated that the F22 has a signature of marbel while the F35 is the size of a golf ball. The in an A to A engagment the F22 and 35 will dominate in a BVR engagment. The F35 falls far behind the F22 in close A to A engagements.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, yeah, internally, the F-35 can carry a smaller payload than the F-16 & the F-18 can carry on their external pylons. But I think that 4 long range missions, the F-35 will always be fitted with weapons on its external pylons as well. As from range point of u, I already gave the specs wiki does. In range, the F-35 is better than both the aircraft is supposed to replace.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 prototype phase. Yes its disconcerning to know that two not so friendly nations to the US are creating stealth aircraft and are slotted to sell them to every nation and military that has it in for the US. Even worse is that the F22 is banned from foriegn sales. There just wont be enough F22s or F35s out there to properly meet emerging threats.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Yes, they are only in their prototype phases, but saying from now that they won't be a challenge 4 the F-22 & F-35 is a big mistake. Not matter what u say, both the J-20 & the T-50 will be superior in terms of range, speed, maneuverability & probably firepower as well. All the F-22 has over them is stealth, but stealth detecting radar technology is rapidly developing so by the time J-20 & T-50 enter service, they very well may have such radars incorporated on them. If this happens,
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > of the F22s engines are still considered classified. Do the math and thats up to 70000lbs total. That kind of power is crucial for acceleration and rate of climb. Also the longer you can sustain your airspeed in BFM the less chance you will stall.
TVC is worth its what you say, "extra weight". The X31 proved the viability of Thrust Vectoring. TVC is useful in both defensive and offensive roles in a dogfight. In a traditional dogfight and BFM, the pilot that can put their >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC I know what u mean when u talk abt the F-22's engines. But then think that if the YF-23 was 7 tonnes lighter, in a full load configuration was more than 70 tonnes lighter, imagine what performances that aircraft had.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > general direction where the pilot is looking, the pilot still needs to place the intended target in a weapons envelope INFRONT of the aircraft. The area in which the AIM-9X can effectively engage is significantly wider then previous missiles before it, the weapons envelope is still infront of the aircraft. HMD and DAS does not allow you to engage a enemy at any direction. No missile can truely engage target directly off to the left or right of the aircraft.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. The DAS & HMD, coupled with the newer versions of the AIM-9X will provide the capability 2 engage in a much wider envelope. The current AIM-9X allows 4 an engagement of 90 degrees or eve more, which is well, outside the frontal side of the aircraft. Since the DAS is made 2 provide 360 degrees coverage, it's only natural 2 assume that they will increase the AIM-9X's engagement envelope. It would be foolish not 2 do it, in specially that they use
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC the F-35 as A-A fighter, role that was originally intended 4 the F-22. This can be done & without it, the F-35 will always be in a disadvantage over more maneuverable aircraft. They have 2 develop AIM-9X versions with bigger engagement envelope than 90 degrees.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC the F-22's will lose even its last edge over the J-20 and T-50. So no matter how you put it & try 2 twist it, the conclusion that the YF-23 should've been selected is the right one. It didn't have TVC, but like I said, its basic agility was so outstanding that if equipped with HMD & DAS systems, it would've owned any TVC equipped fighter. It simply didn't need TVC, but if the need 4 maneuverability would've prove so great, it could've been built with TVC incorporated on it. But
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 >their aircraft in a weapons envelope first wins the fight. TVC greatly improves the aircraft maneuverability at both low and high speeds. TVC allows the aircraft to change its direction faster and pull turns tighter then conventional aircraft with out it. As I stated earlier the F22 has been known to pull snap turns that exceed 30degrees persecond and can sustain a turning raduis of 28degrees persecond. Further more TVC allows aircraft to not only pull high AoAs but also >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC When u talk abt TVC, u completely rule out the new technologies, like HMD, DAS & high off bore sight missiles. The TVC is only useful in a plane that, in order 2 achieve a lock on, needs 2 TURN THE ENTIRE AIRCRAFT on order 2 point its nose 2 the enemy aircraft 2 achieve a lock on. With HMD & DAS, u don't need 2 point ur nose at the enemy aircraft, because u can do that from any angle & without even having 2 turn ur head. The TVC really offers more disadvantages than advantages. It
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 With DAS, HMD, and off boresight, the pilot can slave the targeting sensor and can track and target an enemy almost 90degrees off of the nose of the aircraft to the left or right. The pilot still needs to put the aircraft in a general position in which the missile can be launched and engage. The term "Off boresight" is a loose term. It doesnt allow you to engage an enemy aircraft in any direction, thats physically impossible. It only widens the area infront of the aircraft where you >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC The new DAS is said 2 offer a 180 degrees engagement capability without having to turn the aircraft. That's what they wanna put on the F-35 and probably on the F-22 as well. With this type of technology, the YF-23, with its amazing T/W ratio, really didn't need TVC, which brings more disadvantages than advantages, in my opinion. HMD & DAS really do offer much more advantages than TVC, but u have 2 have an aircraft with very good basic performances & the YF-23 was such an aircraft.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, even if what u say is true, that the pilot still has 2 put the aircraft in a general position in which the missile can be launched & engage, the DAS & HMD still offers great advantages, since the pilot doesn't have 2 make 2 many maneuvers 2 achieve a lock on. Let's say they won't bring the AIM-9X engagement envelope 2 180 degrees, but only 2 120 degrees, or 150 degrees & that will still be a huge advantage, even over the TVC equipped fighters.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 can effectively engage the enemy aircraft. The AIM-9X can accelerate up mach2.5 and generally has an effective range of 6-8 miles. At that speed, it is impossible for the missile to pull a full 180 and engage a threat directly at the 6o'clock of the defensive aircraft. It cant fly off the pylon and pull a hard right or left turn to engage the enemy directly to your left or right. I state it again...
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC The DAS system planned 4 the F-35 has a coverage of 360 degrees around the aircraft & now they r working on giving the AIM-9X a 180 degrees coverage. I've read this somewhere but I don't remember where, so u can check it on Janes Defense or the other site u told me about. Also, this technology will only get better & better so the TVC only equipped fighters will be in a disadvantage when faced with such fighters.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 ... the pilot that can put their aircraft in a weapons envelope first wins the fight.
The YF-23 and 22 were using existing technologies at the time and both were test bed platforms for current stealth and avionics technology now used today in the F35 and F22. Though many aspects of the testing are still guarded as classified, no two aircraft were truely leaps and bounds ahead of each other in terms of technology; they were equal.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, like I said, there's almost nothing known abt the YF-23's radars, sensors & avionics in general. The Northrop did disclosed any type of information abt this, that's why I think it's incorrect 2 assume that the F-22 & YF-23 were equal in terms of avionics. In fact, there r some experts that say the YF-23's radar was more advanced than the F-22's. But like I said, there's practically nothing known about its avionics.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC increase the aircraft's weight & increases the maintenance costs. No matter what u say, the YF-23 was, from many aspects, easier 2 maintain. The YF-23, with its outstanding basic agility & performances, if coupled with HMD and DAS systems, needed no TVC 2 take out any TVC equipped fighters. Also, take into account that it had much better stealth than the F-22, so the chances 4 a dog-ffight occur r much smaller than with the F-22. Also, 2 assume that Northrop would've used the same
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC RAMs is incorrect. The truth is, almost nothing is known abt the YF-23. The Northrop has kept secret a lot of its features. The fact that it was much more aerodynamic than the F-22 meant less heat stress on the RAMs, thus less maintenance in this area. 2 say that the YF-23's maintenance would've cost just as much as the B-2 or F-117 or even the F-22 without knowing almost nothing abt it, is a mistake. I don't think that its maintenance would've cost as much as the F-22's.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC With DAS & HMD systems, U DON'T NEED 2 PUT UR AIRCRAFT IN A WEAPONS ENVELOPE, because having these systems, not matter what position u r in, u will always be in a weapons envelope. U can launch ur missiles from every angle u want. So TVC really is not so useful as u say. It is only useful on an aircraft that, in order 2 have a lock on, it needs 2 point its nose 2 the enemy's aircraft.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC would've been a waste of time & it would've seriously affected some of the aircraft's crucial performances, like speed & T/W ratio, because movable nozzles increase an aircraft's weight.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 > also sustain those high AoAs with less chance of stalling. F22s advanced fly by wire allows the F22 to be extremely departure resistant especially in post stall maneuvering and extreme AoAs.
SA is often a make or break factor in any engagement. The sooner you can see and identify a said threat, the sooner you will be able to asses, act, and engage. The F22s overall low observable design with its enhanced radar, detection, and early warning gives the F22s the ability to >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 Many people have it in their heads that the DAS and JHMD guarantees an instant kill, it doesn't. When comming to the merge the two opposing aircraft will often come at each other at speeds well over 600kmph. Most close in dog fights often do not last more then 20 seconds. Stuff like sensor fusion, DAS, JHMD and off bore engagement only enhances the pilots ability to engage. If the opposing aircraft is stealthed, jamming, and pulling turns so fast and tight that all your systems cant >
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC Well, I don't know how maneuverable the F-35 is, it was not designed as an A-A fighter, which is why is a bad idea 2 replace dedicated A-A fighters. But I believe that the YF-23, if it would've had DAS or HMD, it would've owned any TVC equipped fighter. The F-35 probably doesn't have the required performances, but the YF-23 had. I'm really looking forward 2 see how the F-35 will perform in A-A combat against the F-22.
StiviGun1 1 year ago
@StiviGun1 The F35 doesnt have the agility, speed, or thrust the F22 has. Its said the F35 agility is equal to the F18. I agree with you about the F14D. They didnt make a proper replacement for it and there is nothing out there in the USN that truely fills that role of long range intercept and fleet defense. The Super Hornets are not a proper replacement, no where near. As a multirole strike aircraft yes, as a dedicated Air to Air, no. It doesnt even carry the AIM-54.
HighSpeedPFC 1 year ago
@HighSpeedPFC The new proposed Super Tomcat variants, like the Attack Super Tomcat 21, had very advanced ground strike capabilities as well. So, in reality, the Super Hornet never had anything on the Tomcat. The Super Tomcat, in any of its several proposed variants, was far above the F-18E/F in every aspect, not just A-A combat.
StiviGun1 1 year ago