Prisoners of Gravity: Tolkien (Part 3/3)

[anvilofcrom]

A few ugly butch dykes at the end of this clip think Tolkien is sexist....avoid!

[jrcadet4]

S0 glad you've preserved PoG and uploaded it here. I and others worked VERY hard to persuade PBS to license the show for US broadcast; they only ever picked up four episodes, then tried to produce an inferior copy called FUTURE QUEST. Ah, well...

[ttobinupinit]

Basically, what I'm saying is that to hold Tolkien up to the modern day standards of sex and class is to be a self-absorbed fool who only looks for themselves in whatever they read, and a waste of time. There is no need to look down your nose at the one thing that inspired you to write the most... after all, if it wasn't your thing, move on to something else. An while Gloria Steinham is a great writer, she could never write something like LOTR... she lacks the imagination for it. No sexism there

[ttobinupinit]

case, a male military and combat veteran) than read a person who attributes their own personal writing style to a voice that is inauthentic (where nearly every male character in an Anne Rice novel is either Gay or Bi-Sexual) and doesn't ring true. Not to say that I don't read or enjoy Rice's work, but it's a consistent thing that lots of guys have complained to me about in the past. But guys just read it more for the fun and relaxation than some hidden inner meaning that isn't there.

[ttobinupinit]

chores while the men drink all night long, but to be honest, men still outnumber women in the military because men pick up on and seem to take great personal value from tales of heroism and epic adventures than women do. That is changing (slowly, but still changing) for the better, but it isn't sexist to speak of what is and what was. When one reads too much into something, they often miss the point. I'd rather read a writers work that speaks in a voice they're good at (in this case,

[ttobinupinit]

of a mostly dead genre of writing, than to whine that there was sexism or classism or blah blah blah... it was meant to be a book about an ancient culture that was based on real ancient cultures, and not a world that didn't exist yet... leave that stuff to sci-fi, that's what they're good at. Tolkien knew enough about history to speak quite knowingly on how old societies did work, and women in the kitchen? That shit still goes on today! I don't agree with women doing all the background

[ttobinupinit]

I see only women that are picking nits instead of enjoying the story. If you want to complain about anything in the LOTR series, it's much more obvious that Tolkien's writing style is very, very long-winded and boring for the most part. How many people skipped over two pages of text when he went on a long. unnecessary ramble regarding a rock that had seen six ages of strife? I did, and I love fantasy. But, it's more important to give credit for a book that lead to a slow rebirth

[SvenTviking]

As for sexism. Galadriel is one of the most powerful and wisest beings in middle Earth. She did no washing up. She did not wear a ring of power for nothing

Eowyn killed the Witch King of Angmar. No other being could do that, man,Dwarf or elf.

Again, no dishcloth.

[SvenTviking]

The influence of the two World wars in Tolkien is there if you look. The western front is before the gates of Mordor in the desolation, and in the mere of dead faces. Frodo suffers from, basically, post traumatic stress disorder or shell shock. Thats why he is allowed to go to the west.

[amaxamon]

this was such a great show - before the 'net transformed fandom into the weird beast it is now. ah, the good ol' days...

[Teddog3000]

I dunno. There's some parts of fandom that I enjoy and which only exist because of the net.

On the other hand, the current trend of self-righteous, simpleminded vapid fanatics annoys the crap out of me. These would be the type of people who write long, gushing blog posts about the summer's Transformer and G.I. Joe movies. You probably know the type.

(Sadly, most of these fans are my age. I hate my generation)

[KentAllard]

the thing I loath are the merchandise collectors.

[amaxamon]

@Teddog3000 Yes & yes.

[TheHolloway1983]

Part 5 Now, to be fair, I think the lack of other female heroines, beyond Elowyn's role, is likely a reflection of the time that Tolkien wrote the book in. Remember, women did not have a combat role in the two world wars of the Twentieth Century. However, that is not to imply that Tolkien's Middle-Earth is biased against women. The lack of a female presence simply is a reflection of the cultural context in which the story was created.

[TheHolloway1983]

Part 4

In this dark period it becomes apparent that all balance in the natural world is lost. Thus, the female presence of Middle-Earth is missing as well. This is best illustrated by the void and sadness created by the absence of the Entwives. It is not until the victory at Gondor does the presence of females begin to balance nature out again. The string of weddings after the destruction of the ring illustrates that nature is once again in balance.

[TheHolloway1983]

Part 3

The siege of Helm's Deep is the darkest period of the story in that Tolkien's descriptions of the environment and the foreboding of the characters illustrates the absolute lack of hope within the moment.

[TheHolloway1983]

Part 2

That balance meant that in addition to fabulous adventures so to be there a place for women. However, that balance was altered and set askew by the growing presence of Sauron and his black minions. So, as the first book includes the balance of Tom Bombidil and his wife, who's oneness with nature is clearly defined, that balance is lost as the story nears the showdown at Helm's Deep.

[TheHolloway1983]

Part 1

A while ago I read an account of why the female presence was absent from Tolkiens mythical world; at least until the conclusion of the story. The writer speculated that Tolkien interpreted nature as being in degrees of balance.

[Elric33239]

Interesting how the ladies who write fantasy that were interviewed here had mixed feelings regarding LOTR, specifically the lack of strong female characters, despite the fact that it was Galadriel who...OOPS! I almost gave away a crucial plot point for those who didn't read the story yet! Anyway, interesting conflicting views on a collection of classic fantasy stories inspired by and at odds with Tolkien.

[almanacofsleep]

I think they might mean women were not very well depeloved characters.

[Elric33239]

Compared to all of the male characters, you mean? Which was more developed: Galadriel or Faramir? Does it do more of a service to insert more female characters to a story to avoid offending women who read a story or should the reader(s) simply accept the fact that the main character(s) in the story in question are male? I applaud the writers who wrote exceptional stories where the leads were women, even though several of them were a response to works like this as this segment reveals.

[almanacofsleep]

Yes but it must be disapointing as a woman to find no strong female characters to relate to, especaily when it was your favourite book.

[Elric33239]

You're sounding like several non-Caucasian men & women who expressed equal disappointment over a lack of characters "who look like ME!" I don't need to see a "heroic reflection" to appreciate a story that I enjoy. I can understand how much an African-American male would stand out in Gondor, Rivendell and Mordor and contribute relatively nothing to the quality of the novels in question other than unwanted controversy.

[almanacofsleep]

Not saying I agree with them just that thats were they are coming from. But although I can see its set in a european setting so any other creeds would not be there women would still make up a large presentage of the population so the fact the feminst argument of a lack of strong females are valid.

[Elric33239]

But you're talking about a lack of strong female characters in an Iron Age-type setting. Other than shield-maidens and women of noble birth, which were represented to a degree by Galadrial, Aowyn & Arwen, how can you insert in a work like LOTR strong, well-developed female characters without drawing attention to the possibility that you're favoring the female readers instead of telling an honest story? Sorry ladies, but these were chauvinistic times, Joan of Arc notwithstanding!

[almanacofsleep]

You could by being a good writter? They may have been chauvanistic times but that doesn't mean there were no formanable woman.

[Elric33239]

I didn't say they were, especially since I pointed out how impressed I was with the portrayal of the three ladies I mentioned earlier! Also, I wouldn't dismiss an author as not "being good" because he didn't service my literary taste. As I said, there are few African-American heroic characters in literature, especially in Fantasy/SF literature, but that doesn't affect my ability to appreciate the genre nor does it discourage me from reading it. I guess you can't say the same. Pity.

[Elric33239]

Also, if you want to read a story featuring a low-born peasant girl who becomes a heroic legend, other than tales about Joan of Arc, there's Robert E. Howard stories featuring Dark Agnes as well as Red Sonja. I'm sure there were others written by men AND women, but to critisize LOTR because it wasn't written for a feminist sensitivity isn't any more realistic or fair than to imply that Tolkien was a closet racist because the non-human characters were either "silly" or "grim."

[almanacofsleep]

Your being a tad over sensitive and putting words in my mouth, I don't have any issue with those issues persay but i can see were the critics are coming from. As for Howard I've only read his Conan short stories but as for him writting good female characters he was ether worse, they were ether busty near naked princesses who got whipped or evil, busty near naked queens who did the whipping. Lets not talk about his veiw on race. Good writer though.

[Elric33239]

I apologize. I thought I was commenting on your speculative remark that a "good" writer could write a story featuring strong women without drawing attention to the possibility that he/she was pandering to a special interest group (e.g. feminists). I didn't think I was "putting words into your mouth." As for the "scantilly-clad princesses" in Howard's works, again I think you're ignoring the pre-historic period that it takes place in. And neither Dark Agnes or The Original Red Sonja dressed thus.

[almanacofsleep]

I never said he was a bad writter, just bad at writting good roles for women. Now I don't have a massive problem with that but the female writers clearly do. Also as I said I've only read the some of Howards Conan stories.

[almanacofsleep]

Also Joan of Arc wasn't that much of a hero, to quote the Simpons:

(Lisa simpson as Joan)"Lets defeat the vile English, there concept of individual rights could undermine the power of our beloved tirants!"

[Elric33239]

And like Lisa, you're applying 20th century thinking to a 13th century culture! Monarchies were the only game in town back then! Like Henry said in The Lion in Winter "There's no sense asking if the air is any good when there's nothing else to breathe." And leading dumb peasants against trained soldiers AND WINNING isn't heroic? Standing up to The Oppressive Clergy of the Day TO THE DEATH isn't heroic? Lady, either you're incredibly tough or you've got weird standards!

[Elric33239]

Also, how would a peasant girl of that period know about The Magna Carta and the House of Parliament? I guess you and Lisa didn't know that education was limited to the priviledged back then!

[almanacofsleep]

LADY? I'm a man you moron, and it may be heoric, too bad it was in the name of a tyrant. And please stop taking trival things so seriously I got enough of opinated werdos spaming me with comments.

[Elric33239]

I apologize. Since genders aren't displayed on this forum and considering your feminist stance on Tolkien, I made the erroneous assumption that you were a lady, like you made the mistake of labelling me an "opinionated weirdo." I guess in your world, nobody is allowed to have a different opinion, Medieval peasants must have the same worldview as you do and they should be able to recognize your gender, even when it's not openly stated as I openly stated my race.Sorry.I won't "spam" you again.

[almanacofsleep]

Your not a werido nor were you spaming me, I was being spamed by a weirdo on a nother video who held me responsible for my country's past misdeeds (rich coming from someone from America) and keeps sending me childish insluting PMs. I must have across a more than little defensive so I apoligise, I was enjoying our little dissgussion but I was feeling ganged up on. Also you don't have to be female to be a femminist do you?

[Elric33239]

According to many feminist extremists that I've encountered, absolutely. Gloria Steinem, for example, was infamous for telling male-bashing jokes at numerous meetings during the 70s. While I have no doubt that you're sincere in your sympathies, I don't know too many women who struggled with chauvinists who would be as accepting of "male assistance," gay or straight. So again I apologize for not considering the possibility that you're a man who didn't have to deal with "feminazis."

[almanacofsleep]

well mabey the fresh crop of feminists are more forgiving.

[Teddog3000]

:(

<- Has boobs. Works in a male industry. Is very proud of this fact. Has no problems with guys OR girls helping her.

Carry on. :P

[Elric33239]

You're obviously an enlightened lady who doesn't have male-bashing greeting cards or bumper stickers that say cute things like "A woman without a man is like an elephant without flippers!" As I said, most feminist in the USA have been portrayed in this light & I've rarely seen men in attendence at their rallies possibly because of this narrow viewpoint.

[Elric33239]

Well, Steinem doesn't grab the headlines like she used to and you're not being an American would prompt me to file that thought under "Anything is possible."

[almanacofsleep]

Mabey englands more easy going?

[Elric33239]

Or more civilized.

[almanacofsleep]

could just be the circles i move in.

[almanacofsleep]

Michael Moorcock wrote an essay intitled Epic Pooh that I think you should read, if you havent it already.

[Elric33239]

Has it been posted online or published in a magazine that can be purchased at a media/SF/fantasy convention?

[almanacofsleep]

Yeah it should be online, google it, i think there is a link to it on its wikipedia page

[Elric33239]

Off to Wikipedia then.

[Elric33239]

Found it! So far, it looks like he's grousing about the tunnel-vision of Oxford dons who pine for the good old days of isolated provincialism. That explains Moorcock's Erekose stories and his Oswald Bastable series. More anti-Tolkien fantasies that challenge the notion of the need for the fortification of the "old myths" by creating "new stories in old-style dress." I still remember the "Erekose wielding a bazooka" scene in The Eternal Champion. Reminded me of Connecticut Yankee's gattling gun!

[alecton]

In other parts of the world nudity and partial nudity are perfectly acceptable... we will go there. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

[almanacofsleep]

Outraged feminist demand Zooligists do something about it.