Ever seen a martial arts tournament where the combatants used a sequence of katas to score a point? If the fighter can't even use them in a controlled environment with rules, how much less can one use them in no-holds-barred fighting where survival is the only rule that apply? The way you train is the way you react in a fight. Training in ineffective techniques make you a less effective fighter overall. When the SHTF gross-motor movement takes over & you revert to whatever training you have.
Stylized forms & techniques are the real degradation in martial arts. They are mostly ineffective in actual combat & instills a false sense of security in the practitioner. A real fight is chaotic, brutal, dirty & unpredictable. A criminal bent on killing isn't going to cooperate with you to ensure your perfect execution of techniques against him. Katas are just make-believe exercises built upon elaborate, complicated moves that are mostly utterly useless in a true life-and-death conflict.
@dnumyar1234 well no offense, but have you ever thought that maybe solo training/kata may actually contain real self-defense within them, but that the majority of martial instruction and the majority of most people dont have the perception and hands-on experience to apply them effectively. After all, soldiers in the militaries throught history have made and revised kata to make historical accounts of their situations in combat. even boxer who trains jab/cross/hooks is training kata
@Dharma73 The way you train is the way you react.The nature of kata training is to simulate a type of "fighting" that doesn't exist in reality. Don't confuse practicing execution of INDIVIDUAL techniques with PATTERNED MOVEMENTS. Real combat is chaotic, violent, ugly, dirty, & unpredictable --the exact opposite of patterned stylish kata training. Try & watch two black belts fighting in a tournament & see if you can catch them using a set of katas to score or win a fight. Bet not.
@dnumyar1234 no form of training is ever going to truly 100% be the same as real violence even the world war 2 combatives and the L.I.N.E and MCMAP systems have their flaws, because of the need for safety and awareness/preparedness which seperate training from violence. Katas are not necessarily patterned movements though, but I do see your point
@dnumyar1234 thats because the movements in katas are designed solely for use in actual violence, while tournaments are not designed with lethal use of force in mind.
@Dharma73 try as you may,but you will never survive REAL VIOLENCE with all the katas in the world.No offense,but katas are not DESIGNED SOLELY for use in actual violence. They're meant to preserve the art form of a particular martial art. Maybe, if you could fool a real-life criminal trying to kill you into cooperating with you while you perform kata on him, then & only then will they be effective in actual violence. Just a thought, how many female blackbelts were raped at knife point?
@dnumyar1234 The katas are meant to be analized and the techniques and tactics and strategies are meant to be applied, thats the real point of kata, not to perform a shallow sequence of movements applied with perfect form. lol I guess were can agree to disagree on the subject matter because we view this differently,
@dnumyar1234 but the difference in views does make this interesting to debate. and btw, Katas were designed by the ORIGINAL authors with combat in mind where they fought in terms of life and death, our modern-day combatives will become the traditional arts of the past one day many years from now,the paradigm of thought will always change and sway back and forth
@dnumyar1234 Honestly bro, where im from I grew up living in the streets/hood, not everyone but most people I ever knew where im from have just been naturally tough, I have ex-girlfriends who have fought harder than a lot of men, with and without any combatives training, the training doesnt make you an effective combatant, people just have it in them, without the other half, theres nothig. no amount of training in the world can help you if you dont have the right spirit to fight
@dnumyar1234 The way how you train is only half of the equation, the other half deals with how well you control your survival stress response and adrenaline, you personality, your temperment, your luck your terrain and environment, and other factors as well, combat is more about successfully getting your goals accomplished whether that be safe-guarding yourself, your principle, your self, destroying your enemy at the cost of your life, etc. It is multifaceted
@dnumyar1234 but you cant compare it! a fight in a tournament is a long one, with a lot of movement. But in kata, its just block/counter in a way to kill the enmey with one punch. you cant do that in a tournament!
@Dharma73 >Ever heard of World War 2 Combatives? If not, I suggest you look into it. I have nothing against kata training if you are an avid martial artist. Just don't make the mistake of believing traditional martial arts is self-defense. Thanks!
@dnumyar1234 yes, Im well aware of WW2 combatives and about Sykes,Fairbairn, and O'Neal, Ive been aware of them for 6 years now and I also draw some influence from Carl Cestari and Ki-Chuan-Do aka Guided Chaos but to be honest even though they all have similar and diferent/varying views on this particular subject, they are more or less the same but as Marc "Animal" McYoung even stated on his website "No-nonsense-self-defense" that people always say that traditional training methods
@dnumyar1234 are not effective in terms of truthfully replicating violence and that people who are not traditionalist prey on that, but to be honest all anyone has to do is just take their training and implememnt it with stress innoculation ie. make themselves more use to realistic violence as closely as possible, with regards to safety as well
@Dharma73 Well I've been a traditionalist for a long time. I practiced my katas in front of the mirror to make sure every movement is snappy & perfect--until the brutal imperfection of real fighting served as a wake up call. Being used to realistic violence alone is not enough. Rather, controlling your stress-response and REACTING EFFECTIVELY to violence is key. Again,How you train is how you react.Without proper responses,soaking up stress alone will just give you high blood pressure
@dnumyar1234 well I agree with you on this as well, but we both said the same thing in regards to stress innoculation and adrenal stress. How you train is only half of the equation, the other half is based on how you control your adrenal stress, maintaining calmness and clarity/leveled and centeed in the midst of chaos, your personal temperment, your attiitude and personal convictions, all in all it deals with knowing yourself and defending your convictions plus controlling adrenal
@Dharma73 stress and combative conditioning. Not everybody is as naturally tough as the next man, for example my ex-fiance never trained in martial arts until just a few years ago, but when she was 16 years old she was assaulted by a man and a woman who attacked her in manhattan ny in the street . My ex-fiance bit the mans pinky finger off and he will always be traumatized for that.And that was without any formal training at the time.
@Dharma73 And as for myself goes, I will admit I have been stabbed badly a few times in my life but because of my training and my will to live in conjunction with me just being myself naturally, I survived and crushed my assailants to pieces, shit happenes in the ghettos of NY and its easy to get rid of bodies and evidence, long staory short there have been a few times that people tried to off me but Im still standing.
@Dharma73 So for me, my training and my convictions and me being myself naturally is what led to me being successful, and plus im from the south bronx ny, Ive lived in the ghetto all of my life and the violence in NY is LIVE donw here, even when I was in prison lol but thats a different story. But no two people are exactly the same so what works well for one person will not necessarily work well for the next person,
@Dharma73 My friend, that is exactly my point! You have to become violence to violent people.We are all natural killers.Criminals don't need martial arts training to be effective in killing.All it takes is the will or INTENTION to kill.But, like you said, not everyone is raised with an understanding of real violence & how to use it in self defense, & that is exactly what combat training should address.Crushing the throat or busting the eyes to stop an attacker need no katas to perform.
Again, it all boils down to what you have ingrained in the sinews of your being to enable you to utilize the inner strength within. More than likely, a boxer would react with a punch, a ju-jitsu man with a lock or grapple, a TKD man with a kick--depending on that person's training. Whatever, however, the bottom line is SURVIVAL.Training determines how a person reacts. This is one reason why an untrained person is often more effective than one who learned an impractical martial art.
@dnumyar1234 I see where your coming from, I hated doing katas for years because I never saw the value in them until I became 19 years old and then I started to see the value and effective combative applications in them regarding effective uses of violence.
@Dharma73 it's funny that I like performing katas before, because I thought they are the "be-all-end-all" in self-defense, thinking that the more katas I master the more effective I will be in combat.Our sensei explained (in meticulous detail) the supposed applications of those katas. However, I learned after years of UN-learning katas that mastering just a few EFFECTIVE techniques aimed at vital targets is what really works. ("It is not daily increase but daily decrease" --Bruce Lee)
We mention the word "violence" many times. But KATAs are not reflective of what real violence is. Merely punching & kicking against an imaginary opponent is simply not violent enough. REAL VIOLENCE is taking a knife in one's gut or throat. Being raped, mugged, or almost beaten to death is just a small portion of real violence. Those are the things that we must take into consideration in training. Violence is the result of INTENT TO KILL or DESTROY.
A criminal is a breathing, thinking being & he uses his INTENT as power to harm others. He only has this power as long as he is able to THINK. Take out his brain & you take out the threat. How? by shutting him down...by destroying his ability to pursue his evil intentions...by destroying vital targets in his body until he can no longer harm you...and by being able to do all that....
@dnumyar1234 I appreciate the difference in your opinion though, Im only guessing that you would also like the Target-Focus-Training system, the SCARS system, Peyton Quinn, marc Animal McYoung, Tony Blauer and his SPEAR system, Guided Chaos, Laurence Kane and Wilder, Lorrence Christianson, Lee Morris, Carl E Cesstari, Clint Sporman, and Rene Morales, check into them if you have not, you might like them and their differnt approaches.
@Dharma73 >I've been involved in the fighting arts for 31 years and I am well aware of all those fine systems you mentioned. I agree, no system can replicate real violence, but what you want to train in is a system that will make you more effective in real combat. Like i said, real combat is unpredictable, dirty, brutal.. and no training in the world is effective until you make YOURSELF effective. And one of the ways to do that is to prepare for real violence
@dnumyar1234 Right on!!! I like the way you presented that.I do agree with you on this subject, but our only difference in opinion is based on kata/solo training but I do get your point and agree with you on your view. But katas are not limited to being patternized, even though most schools of thought teach them that way. Anything can become a kata but in my honest opinion kata training is shadowfighting and everyone who trains in MA/SD does it. We all train solo to different
@dnumyar1234 degrees, but at the end of it all training solo is in essence kata practice, btw 31 years, thats impressive, im only 24 years of age and ive been in the MA/SD from the age of 5 yrs. Its not about time, but what you accomplish with it.
@Dharma73 >as you know, the human body is made up of muscles & organs controlled by the nervous & endocrine systems. You learn responses based on your training. Under extreme stress, fine motor-skills (used in most katas) are lost, GROSS MOTOR MOVEMENTS take over. It's a simple thing once you realize how the body respond to extreme stress. A criminal bent on killing won't just stand there & cooperate while his victim executes a series of katas on him..well you get the point. Take care!
@dnumyar1234 Theres also the huge possibility/percentage of pulling of complex motor skills in combat under adrenal stress, as long as the individual has experience in doing so ie: Training under duress stress innoculation/and having/maintaining control over their adrenaline and excitement.
dude... its a matter how you apply it... first vid you got mainly mai geri and 2 zukis, last vid (t asai by the way is one of the greatest karateka the world has ever seen!) there is kaki-zuki and yoko geri, if the enemy comes from left or right, this makes more sense than to turn and fight ahead
Hey!! This guy is trying to get lots of views. The one who is doing karate, is practiceing and shuts his mouth with all the useless observations! In every person it can be seen a very different abordation of the same style, but in different styles... Bye!
Take a look at the movements in our kata ,especially shotokan, and then match them up against an enemy holding you at bay with a bayonet spear,rifle ot saber. Many of our techniques work perfectly in these senarios. There is an excellent book called Shotokans hidden secrets. I highly recommend this read. It will make you think differently about kata application and the original purpose of our kata. Let me know what you think.
These bodyguards( Matsumura, Itosu ect ) did not have time to roll around with their enemy. They needed to dispatch the enemy and get back to the person who they were protecting. This is the true reason that we are told to return to the starting point of the kata. The enemy/ threat is out in front and to the sides of us. The person we are protecting is behind us. The kata have us venturing out into the mob dipatching the enemy and then returning back to the persn we are protecting.
The karate experts of the time, who were responsible for the creation of the Heian Kata and others, were bodyguards for the Okinawan Nobles of the Shurie Castle and ther Karate reflected what was needed to protect these Nobles. The Kata are blue prints on how to battle against a mob senario. This explains why there are few submissions,chokes and grappling techniques found in our Kata. Instead you find very strong, fast linier techniques that focus on a one strike stop/kill technique.
The enemy were foreign invaders who came to okinawa to try and establish and open trade relations with Japan. These invaders were Americans under the command of Commodore Perry. What were their weapons? Bayonets, rifles, knives etc. Has any one asked themselves why most of our Kata blocks focus on mid level. This is because for the person holding the weapon the largest target was the human torso. Our kata contain blocks that deal specificly with this threat.
The reason kata application is a source of speculation is mainly because the kata have evolved over time and that different schools of karate interpert movements differently. The original purpose of the Japanese Karate Kata has been misunderstood by many. The movements were not designed to defend against an un armed opponent but rather against an enemy armed with a bayonet, spear, dagger or other type of long range weapon. Remember, weapons were banned on Okinawa so who was the enemy?
@Mr23748 well said, yes the kata were meant to be used as training to fight against an armed assailant in fact i once read that some researchers believe that all kata were meant for that purpose, the purpose being to defend against an armed person to 1) preferably take away his weapon or negate it until you can get one of your own 2) last resort to seriously injure or kill the attacker that has a weapon when you you don't have one.
@Mr23748 I also mean to say "when they want to kill you!!" thats what kata is for and thats the mentality that it is meant to train. Some believe (myself included) that kata is also designed to train for use of weapons as well i.e fighting with or without weapons the movements and mentality are the same so it shouldn't matter. I agree that the meanings of kata have been misinterpreted, i think the okinawans to some degree did this on purpose when they taught Japanese in the early years.
@Mr23748 but i also think that funakoshi sensei also taught a training method of karate (a "DO") not so much a combat method (JUTSU) which his students named shotokan and with the introduction of sporting competition and more Japanese influences that came with popularity it went away from the Kempo that funakoshi and the other Masters practiced and became what today is traditional karate which is more performance based than anything else, Well thats my two cents. Arigatou gozaiimasu *Bow*
@LosBats Well said right back at you. The book that I mentioned is an excellent read. It actually gives insight to to the possible mind set of the karate men of that time. To many people spend to much time trying to figure out Kata's place within Karate and become frustated when the techniques don't seem to match up with any so called realistic street attack. The truth is that the Karate fight you see today is based on kick.punch,sweep take down and leans more toward sport rather then war fare.
@LosBats The kata are passed down records of the techniques that were utilized at that time during battle.The Shotokan Kata practiced today how ever had been changed from there original Okinawin look. This was partially due to the fact that when Funakoshi arrived in Japan and intoduced Okinawin Karate into the public school system he found it necessary to eliminate many movements that were deemed dangerous. The emphasis was now on health, fitness and character development.
@LosBats You are correct in saying that there is a weapons component to our Kata. Remember before Funakoshi Sensei arrived in Japan he trained on the Island of Okinawa and was brought up within Okinawin martial arts culture. He was familiar with the sai. bo etc. Common sense dictates that these weapons were not permited within the educational system and as time went by' there place within Funakosh's Karate was discarded.
I think you should call evolution of karate.Everything changes.who dont changes die.If you see a karate man doing Kata today ,you realese that this guy is more technical and is better than a guy who did kata 100 year ago.Some changes are good other are bad.That is life.
The original purpose of kata was to serve as a reference book ( unwritten form ) for self defense sequences to also be practiced with an opponent. Modern kata seems to serve the purpose of developing skill in techniques and to be performed in contests to see who looks the most deadly .
I think the kata could be called degraded when the teacher doesn't know what he 's transmitting. This being the case some might be accused of adjusting movements to suit their own dojofied application where as the original movements represented real life developed nastiness. Kata is always evolving,even if the human body isn't. Isn't that what the jka did soon as Funakoshi passed away. Made stances longer and deeper even though the early works were more practical. Read Motobu Choki for insight
¿Degradacion?. No estoy seguro. Creo que formas diferentes de hacer lo mismo y todas son buenas cuando son bien comprendidas y se tiene claro lo que se esta haciendo
Asai Sensei was a genius. I've met him when I was a teenager and he was already at advanced age. He could move in a way few people can. His performance of Nijushiho is one of the best I've seen and I think the way he portrays Nijushiho is the way it should be. That's evolution. Besides, he could really apply those technics in real combat...
...not too sure what this vid was supposed to establish. But anyway, Karateka, instead of trying to find whatever meaning there is to kata and making Karate-do sound so mystical in the process; how about we just practise it for physical fitness and the polishing of basic technique. At least that's my reason for doing it, just a suggestion
degradation? do you understand what's the REAL objetive of kata? they are pretty useless as a combat technique themselves, no matter if they are "correct" or modified (karate kid III it's just fantasy haha) kata it's meaningless without your own understandig of karate, a mere sequence of choreographic movements... kata is training for the mind, no matter if you do a old or modern style, it's objetive is the same...
This is not degradation of the essence of Karate. JKA has been the only organization to study Karate in Scientific basis. Asai Sensei introduced the two kekome on the Kata. This is called evolution, not degradation
Bassai, I have known and trained with Iekukataka off and on for 10+ years, every thing he is telling you is legit. I have seen his original JKA certificate. Not that an anonymous person on YouTube lends any added legitimacy or credibility to what any body else claims. I know many of his peers and they can vouch for his experience from before i knew him / was even born.
@aodell531 No disrespect, but anybody and everybody can say that. So when I receive info from the internet, Youtube especially, I'd rather receive fact backed up by actual documentation. Even a JKA certificate (mine included) does not mean much, I've met many disillusioned practitioners in the same organization.
I believe that the core difference comes from the fact that the Okinawans used To De Jutsu as a true means for defending their lives. The mainland Japanese interpretation is a sport meant to be taught in the school system in a standardized format. As such it is meant to be safer for its participants. Nishiyama, here in the US, further degraded the art by trying to make it acceptable for the Olympics. The primacy of Funakoshi's Okinawan method has been largely abandoned by most practitioners
You could also blame Funakoshi himself for that, or the other Okinawan pioneers such as Mabuni, Motobu, etc. The JKA was formed in 1949 with Funakoshi as Chief Instructor. Though 80 at the time, he still was very sharp as testified by his students, JKA or either. He oversaw the training curriculum and if you watch old JKA videos circa 1950's prior to Gichin's death in 1957, little has changed since. I agree sport degraded the art, but kihon and its practice are relatively the same.
The high kicks, low stances... make very good to the body. The issue is to take it to your applications and kumite, the way nearly all people today do...
I love seeing the comparisons so close together, great job on whoever made the video, but I also dont see any "degradation", just different ways of doing the same thing.
I don't see the degradation. If you'd like to post a video opinion, back it up with a logical argument. Bunkai changes like this: Kata and bunkai was passed from teacher to pupil. Pupil becomes teacher and decides to change kata and bunkai because he sees thinks his version is better. He then teaches it to his pupil.... and so on and so forth. That's how it was in Okinawa, as well as Japan
Kata was developed from jissen and yakosuku kumite. It included defense against weapons and unarmed assailants. The degradation exists but is not clear in the video. The JKA changed their original Okinawan kata because they are arrogant and still are so. Their kata largely do not have weapons bunkai, even though they speak of such, and now are used primarily for tournament competition and dojo training for their limited kumite style. How do I know? I am a life member now studying Ko Ryu Ho.
I agree with you , but I saw the degradation in technique's essence .
And I go ahead . The Japanese changed the original Okinawan kata because they doesn't understood that kind of technique . Classical Japanese martial arts are all standardized . The have the "grappling" division , "atemi" division , "throw" division , "sword" division , etc ...
Okinawa Bujutsu is different from this , and Japanese people doesn't understand this point .
English not so bad, I understood it. They changed the style for two reasons: Yoshitake Funakoshi was very dynamic and his father would not rein him in. They are arrogant and believe their way is best even though this was proclaimed by a group that was about 25 years old when they did so and were comparing themselves to an art that was about 1000 years old in general terms. Arrogance from a generation spawned in militarism. now they are a sport. Sad, such potential wasted by an attitude.
Not sure what you mean that kata came from "jissen" and "yakusoku" kumite... What sources are you getiing this info from (written please, not by hearsay)? BTW, it's a normal thing for masters to change kata. This behavior existed even in Okinawa, despite the taboo rule to change kata. Example, you have so many version of Kusanku... There's Kanku-Dai, Kanku-Sho, Chatanyara Kusanku, Kosokun Dai, Kosokun Sho, etc. Even Funakoshi himself changed the Itosu's Pinans to current Heians.
You sound like a lawyer. Okinawan written history was largely destroyed during the invasion of WWII. However, traditional history, parallel logic and some written accounts speak of the same unwritten yet logical process. See the Bubishi and The History of Shotokan Karate for written opinions. Here is mine: A practitioner of old wants to record his experiences in a way he can practice. What are his experiences? That is Jissen or actual fights he had to endure. From those fights, he (see next)
Next: developed a set of scenarios he could practice himself, kata, or some he may have practiced with another, yakusoku kumite. From those formats comes the ability to imagine others realistically or may have been experiential. So, the pattern repeats; more experience, more kata, more yakusoku kumite. That is how traditional kata and yakusoku kumite become the backbone of karate focused on self defense. Sports focused karate has no substance and it can be seen easily by the karate jutsu-ka.
As for all masters changing kata; not so. Change does not have to be a part of the equation but it is to some degree. Change, for the sake of change, is destructive and forces loss of insight. However, changing something slightly to clarify it or to involve bunkai is relatively normal. Look at the various traditonal exponents doing kururunfa, it is largely the same. However, get a westerner or a sports karate-ka involved, destructive change is going to happen because of focus change. Help any?
The general concept of degredation as I use it refers to the degredation of intent. Karate was, and is, although many in the west selfishly deny it, an Okinawan art of self defense. It is degraded by the selfish needs of those refusing to adhere to this tenet. They use the name yet destroy the primal motives and techniques for selfish gain. If you are a jutsuka and change a portion of a kata slightly to strenghten a bunkai, few would care as both the original and the new could be done. in like
manner, changing an original kata dramatically and keeping the name is rude, selfish and arrogant. However, the good news is that old kata are there to be found and even changed kata can be further altered to include realistic bunkai. After all, if they have been altered, improving them as regards bunkai and for the purpose of practice becomes the point. I do not do the JKA Kankudai the same as they do, I assigned realistic bunkai and it became a more meaningful kata to train with. Bunkai first.
@IEKUKATAKA But if you look at Fujian / Fukkien White Crane Kung-Fu kata (quanfa) it resembles, but differs greatly, to much of the Naha-Te kata of today. So the trend of learning kata, changing it for whatever purpose and recreating it as new is a natural thing a martial artist does. It follows the pattern of the Zen precept: Shu-Ha-Ri. Learn from your teacher, form your own opinion, break away from tradition.
@IEKUKATAKA So are the changes made a degradation? It depends on the practicality of the bunkai, Omote, Ura or Okuden. Only the author of the change would know. Is it disrespectful to its original author of the kata? Only if you don't change the name of the kata (you and I agree). However, I don't agree that a westerner's hand in Karate is a bad thing. I am currently studying Brazilian Jujitsu (Serra's in Long Island, NY) and this experience enhances my view on all bunkai. Ossu!
Glad you find BJ good for you, it is certainly effective. However, with few exceptions relatively speaking, the western karate I see is fabricated, contrived, uneducated, deluded and permeated with an attitude. That is why I am leary of westerners and martial arts. I live in a town of about 200k and, to the best of my knowledge, there are no (zero) real traditional schools and fraud is pandemic. It is sickening and a testimony to what we have become in the west. Karate is Okinawan, period.
@IEKUKATAKA I was frustrated because I needed to know more Ura bunkai, so I joined a Matsubayashi-Ryu dojo (Crevani Sensei) to understand kata better (unknown to Mori Sensei, who's doing fine and had stopped smoking before I joined his school). When I discovered that the Omote bunkai of Kusanku didn't differ much from JKA's Omote bunkai of Kanku-Dai, I was disappointed. But when we were shown Ura bunkai of Kusanku, it was about the same as the Ura bunkai I had learned in my Philippine dojo.
@IEKUKATAKA Asai, in his version of Nijushiho, only changed the side stomp kicks to side thrust kicks to the rib area. I thought the original kicks were more effective, but when I had discussed this change with my teacher, Mori Sensei (JKA, NY), he said both were equally effective, as side thurst kicks are currently considered omote bunkai (obvious) and the original stomp kicks as Ura bunkai (hidden, alternative).
I can see that and have no issue with either. I do have an issue with the execution of the old fumikomi but that is probably not relevant. I met Mori in Lexington, SC years ago when I was a student of Nishiyama. Is his health better? I remember seeing Nishiyama and him smoking like two chimneys every chance they got.
@IEKUKATAKA In the subject of which bunkai is more effective, old or new, I have to say that is all up to the practitioner or the background of his teacher. After discovering bunkai of Kusanku while studying Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu, I learned that compared to Shotokan Kanku-Dai, it wasn't really more practical at all. The applications were so similar to the Ura bunkai of Kanku-Dai I had learned while training in the Philippines (mid-90's) so I was a little surprised.
Keeping in mind that karate underwent a surge in development after the Satsuma invasion, I have to believe that a lot of bunkai is weapons based or inside fighting based. Too much Shotokan bunkai is assumed to happen from outside fighting. That is nonsense because large first strike techniques from a distance are not effective in general. I believe training that covers the most logical events was and is intelligent. Bunkai against a thrown pencil is not likely of significant contribution.
@IEKUKATAKA Your concept / strategy of original bunkai (shocking the head before applying a seconary technique) isn't too different to many modern Karate lessons today. It's the same thing as the one-two concept. Blow to the head, follow up with a secondary attack (throw/grapple/strike). IIn relation to kata, it is as Ura bunkai. Usually practiced in kumite, not for sport but for simple street sparring, and separate from kata practice. Many Shotokan dojos (some JKA even) practice this today.
Maybe you have experienced this type technique in Shotokan, I have not. I have trained with Nishiyama, Koyama, Okazaki, Mikami, Takashina, Katsumata, Ochi, Oichi, Kawasoe and Yaguchi, never saw it but knew it existed from Japan days as a Marine. I am talking about typically kai shu waza used to distract and edicted by short order circumstances. BTW, from this realizationcame the revelation of how shuto, teisho, seiryuto, kakuto etc are really used and I definitely never saw that in the JKA.
@IEKUKATAKA Also, Nakayama had taught blocks used as attacks as well, which its idea derived from Ura bunkai. For example, Age-Uke in Heian Shodan could be used as an upward forearm strike to the jaw, followed up by a takedown. Sadly, this approach to practicing kata and bunkai is absent to many JKA dojos, though many of the old masters (Mori Sensei included) used to train this way long before the JKA had formed.
@IEKUKATAKA Mikami Sensei initially taught my Filipino teacher when he was stationed there in the 60's. When I asked my teacher, Pocholo Veguillas Sensei, where he had learned Shotokan bunkai from (he had broken off the JKA in the 70's and joined another non-JKA Shotokan dojo) he said he learned the Heian and Tekki bunkai from Mikami Sensei. This included Shuto-uke used as Shut-Uchi, Age Uke as a forearm strike, takedowns in Tekki Shodan, etc.
You just made my poinnt and did not know it. You spoke of hearsay earlier, Mikami said.... The heian kata are kihon kata. They are for practice of kihon contained in them and a base for other kata called kumite kata. The heian kata were intentionally not assigned bunkai for this reason. Bunkai can be applied to any technique. Mikami apparently did so, I have done the same in order to explain how a techniques can differ. Original heian kata had no bunkai per Nishiyama, senior to Mikami.
@IEKUKATAKA@IEKUKATAKA How can you say that Heian kata had no bunkai when that's what Funakoshi taught? Kata and bunkai after mastery of kata, as stated by Funakoshi in his book: Karate-Do Kyohan. In Cook's book, there are numerous stories and pictures of Shotokan Karate-Ka practicing bunkai. If you study closely, Heian kata came from Itosu's Pinan kata, which includes the practice of bunkai.
@IEKUKATAKA Changes made in Pinan kata by Funakoshi was due to a need for lower stances and strengthening of the legs. At this time, numerous challenges by Jujitsu practitioners may have lead to this change. I'm not sure your source of info on original intent of Heian kata... How can Nishyama say that when that's Funakoshi's method of teaching Karate, as per books by Nakayama, Cook, etc..?
Nishiyama said that because he was a direct student of Funakoshi. BTW, not one book you have was written by Funakoshi, they are all illigitimate translations and publications. That came from Nishiyama sensei also.
@IEKUKATAKA So you are saying, Oshima, who was a direct student of Funakoshi himself, did an illegitimate translation? I find that hard to believe. I am aware there was a conflict between Oshima and Nishiyama in the early days, hence I would expect Nishiyama to say that, but where is the proof for that statement? Also, your facts about Yoshitaka was all wrong, despite your experience. And to say "Original heian kata had no bunkai per Nishiyama, senior to Mikami. " makes no sense when
@Bassai I agree whit you and i'm in the same position as you... But just for that point no body realy study whit Funakoshi Ô senseï because after the second world war no body could train in martial art in japan and in this time Funakoshi Ô sensei had something like 85 or 90 years old!! Oshima wasn't a direct student of Funakoshi Ô sensei but a student in the Waseda Uneversity whit Harada sensei... And Funakoshi was some time there but he never gave a cours in this time...
@zakardo Nakayama, one of the JKA founders, started studying under Funakoshi in 1932, when O sensei was only around 64 years old. Only 11 years earlier, in 1921, did O sensei introduce Karate-Do to Japan. World War 2 ended in the Pacific in 1945, when Funakoshi was 77 years old. Nishiyama, another JKA founder, trained in the Shotokan headquarters in 1946, when O sensei was 78.
Obata Isao, another JKA founder, practiced under Funakoshi much earlier than both Nakayama and Nishiyama.
@zakardo Nakayama, one of the JKA founders, started studying under Funakoshi in 1932, when O sensei was only around 64 years old. Only 11 years earlier, in 1921, did O sensei introduce Karate-Do to Japan. World War 2 ended in the Pacific in 1945, when Funakoshi was 77 years old. Nishiyama, another JKA founder, trained in the Shotokan headquarters in 1946, when O sensei was 78.
Obata Isao, another JKA founder, practiced under Funakoshi much earlier than both Nakayama and Nishiyama.
@IEKUKATAKA Nishiyama himself illustrates bunkai for Heian Yondan in his own book, Karate, The Art of Empty Hand Fighting. He also states the origins of the kata had been originally handed down as the Pinan, which is practiced with bunkai. Harry Cook, the historian, who never trained under the JKA, uses the same book translated by Oshima for reference in his Shotokan: A Precise History.
@IEKUKATAKA I don't doubt your experience with the JKA at all. I have met many people in the JKA who did not understand a thing about real Shotokan fighting despite them being with the JKA since 60's and 70's (Japanese included) and I blame the JKA exactly for that. However I don't blame the style, Shotokan, for it as JKA is only a faction of many other Shotokan schools who train the original way. JKA is only the other major association amongst many that splintered after Funakoshi had died.
@IEKUKATAKA As I had mentioned earlier, Isao Obata had left in the mid-fifties because of the same disappointment Nishiyama had with the JKA. Obata, one of Funakoshi's leading students and Nishiyama's senior, left sand started his own school. That explains why my teacher in the Philippines broke off from the JKA too and joined another non-JKA Shotokan school in Manila.
@IEKUKATAKA As for the Japanese distorting Karate, blame the Okinawans themselves. Okinawans like Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Miyagi, etc. It was their decision to introduce Karate to the Japanese. The Japanese never wrenched it from them. It is the nature for Japanese/ American/ Filipino/English/French.. whoever - to take the martial art they had learned and transform it to what they believe would make it better. Okinawans are guilty of it too, but the Chinese aren't complaining.
@Bassai Okinawan masters have changed katas as well. These were original movements from kung fu, example white crane and goju. Obvious changes there. One of funakoshis teachers also changed katas, and created new ones. Changes of katas, and mixing of styles is the truest tradition of them all. And shotokan just followed history.
@IEKUKATAKA I don't mean to offend you, but I understand your frustration with shortcomings JKA style training and sport Karate. But I expected that when I initially joined the JKA anyways. However, I do admit that I like watching tournaments. I don't think kata should be a tournament sport at all, but shobu sanbon kumite is amusing to watch. I was very elated when I discovered JKA-trained Lyoto Machida fighting in the UFC, using kumite footwork, distancing and timing (my inspiration to do bjj)
@IEKUKATAKA Your statement that not one book I have was written by Funakoshi, (Karate-Do Kyohan, Karate-Do Nyumon, Karate-Do My Way of Life, Tote-Jutsu *his first book with his own pictures performing techiniques and bunkai*) were not written by Funakoshi himself, because Nishiyama simply said so, is truly hard to believe because he was not the only student of Funakoshi. He himself wrote his own book explaining kata the same way Funakoshi's books do.
@IEKUKATAKA As for Okinawan way of training, as per Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu tradition, you are supposed to take the bunkai of kata and apply them in yakusoku (pre-arranged) fighting and drilled repeatedly so that the techniques would become an automatic response for self defense. BTW, according to Hironori Otsuka, founder of Wado-Ryu and one of Funakoshi's first Japanese students, Shotokan kihon was developed by his generation to make kata and kumite easier to master.
@IEKUKATAKA Again, I don't doubt your experience with the JKA. and I don't mean disrespect. Its just that some of what you are saying can be rebutted with written sources from authors who have just as a legitimate background as you. I wish you could write a book on what you experienced and what you believe in, then I'd buy it, read it and come up with a clearer conclusion of your statements.
@IEKUKATAKA Even Nishiyama himself executes bunkai application of Heian Yondan in his book: Karate: The Way of Empty Hand Fighting? In his videos, he also shows applications to Jitte, as he is attacked with a staff by Kanazawa? I'm not sure about your source of info.
45 years of training is the source. Time is the source, experience with each person I trained with is the source. Believe what you like, however, another person with much more experience knows you tend to see things as black and white and need to listen more than you talk.
@IEKUKATAKA Actually, Nishiyama's book, which contains Heian Yondan omote bunkai, is titled: Karate, The Art of Empty Hand Fighting. It was published in 1960, prior to MIkami's stationing in the Philippines in 1961. So, I'm not sure why Nishiyama would tell you that. Were you practicing with him in California?
You misunderstand. The heian kata were not intended to be the base of kumite but rather the base of kihon, practicing technique. That does not mean bunkai can not be assigned. Much of the Heian kata can be found in the kumite kata where bunkai is important. Nishiyama told me many things that took time to understand. At 27, you simply have not had enough time or experience to put a lot of this together. Give your self some time before you become an expert.
@IEKUKATAKA Also, in the same book, you have Kanazawa and OKazaki performing the bunkai to Heian Yondan. I believe the degradation of Karate in JKA began when tournament training was put over old way of Karate bunkai training. Only a few masters today would bring out the old bunkai lessons on an occasion in the dojo or if they were called to do a special seminar. I had to badger Mori sensei from time to time, hoping he was in the mood to show the meaning of some movements in kata.
@IEKUKATAKA However, in my old dojo in the Philippines, bunkai was part of your examination and was practiced regularly, aside from jiyu kumite practice. The reason why I joined the JKA in NYC, was because it was the only legit Shotokan dojo accessible to me. The others were either run by scam artists or were too far from me. As I had said, I was frustrated with the bunkai training with the JKA, so I tried Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Crevani Sensei).
@IEKUKATAKA I also trained in the Kyokushin dojo (Sensei Gorai) after leaving Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (due to conflicting schedules... the classes started way too late for me 8:30 pm to 9:30 or 10:00) to have a taste of their way of training. I left when I earned my Ikkyu, and now I'm training in BJJ (Matt Serra's in L.I.). So how did you get to train with all these Shotokan teachers?
Maybe you did not read my profile or did not understand some of what I said. I started doing this in 1964, I am no beginner. It is quite common for a teacher to have others come to instruct. Over this length of time training with that many people is easy rather than hard. I also gathered many of my opinons from talking to them.
@IEKUKATAKA I also find it strange that you would say: "BTW, from this realization came the revelation of how shuto, teisho, seiryuto, kakuto etc are really used and I definitely never saw that in the JKA." despite your long history with the JKA, because Nakayama explains the applications of the techniques in his book "Dynamic Karate" published by Kodansha in 1966. I also was in Enoeda Sensei's (before he died) summer camp in NY/CT and he explained the applications of Jitte (w/ Teisho Uchi).
@IEKUKATAKA The assumption that all Shotokan bunkai depends on long-distance fighting is not true at all, as it is a misconception of many Karate-ka. If you look at Shotokan bunkai, you'll notice that almost all defending techniques require you to step into the opponent's space. For example, every blocking technique in Heian Shodan requires you to step into your opponents attack, instead of moving backwards.
My point is exactly that, all bunkai are given by another attacking you. That presumes your counter technique will be effective. What if it isn't? Then there is the case of your not perceiving an attack and an opponent is all over you, where is that bunkai? Son, I don't mean to be impudent, but I have been doing this 45 years. I think, having trained with who I have trained with, that I would know the nature of JKA karate. I do and now practice Ko Ryu Ho because Shotokan has limited itself.
@IEKUKATAKA Even Nakayama has these techniques in his Karate for practical self-defense books. JKA's mass production of black belts has degraded the art to a point. But Shotokan techniques are limited only by the practitioner himself. Example, I have trained in Shotokan most of my life and I have used it well a few times. Because my teacher made us do continuous kumite besides traditional point fighting, I understood the danger of an opponent who could withstand simple block and punch.
Keep in mind, it incorporated just after WWII and under the tutelage of Yoshitaka Funakoshi primarily, he was a young man and did not carry on his Fathers karate style. Shotokan karate is 65 years old. They did not cover all the bases and limited themselves because of a sporting focus. Ko Ryu Ho is centuries old and is limitless in information and application. If you ever really got involved, you would do nothing else as it covers the entire spectrum of self defense and includes weapons.
@IEKUKATAKA That's not true. Yoshitaka died of tuberculosis in 1945, before the war's end in the same year. Sport Karate did not happen in the JKA until 1957 (first tournament). Tournament rules did not take place until a year or so before that. Nakayama needed rules because students were maiming each other in Kokan-Geiko between schools. Though Funakoshi introduced Karate to mainland Japan in 1921, Shotokan was not instated until 1936. Gigo (Yoshitaka) studied Karate in Okinawa.
@IEKUKATAKA I would also like to point out that not all the masters changed kata, but some did. Another example would be Hanashiro Chomo's Passai as compared to Chotoku Kyan's Passai. Both had learned it from the same teacher, Itosu, as did Funakoshi, but versions of each differ in so many ways. It was also known that many had learned kata from Chinese teachers in Fujian, having the opportunity to travel there. Kanryo Higaonna, for example, is said to have learned White Crane Kung-Fu in Fujian.
@IEKUKATAKA We share the same feelings towards sports Karate, as it had degraded the art to a point. I also dislike the changing of kata for aesthetic reasons rather than practical application purposes, as is the trend in sports Karate today. However, in JKA's defense, I'd like to point out that the changes the original changes they made in kata as taught by Funakoshi wre also bunkai based, during its pre-tournament era (Nijushiho above example).
Been with the JKA since 1964, am a life member in Japan where I studied. Except in Japan when I was there, the bunkai I see are largely nonsense and unrealistic. They give the appearance of being uneducated, inexperienced, ill thought out. Mario Higaonna does not have that problem, He is a traditional jutsu-ka and wants, demands a martial focus, the true nature of karate.
@IEKUKATAKA As I stated, original changes the JKA did with kata where made before tournaments, while Isao Obata was still with them (according to Harry Cook's book, he left because he didn't agree with the tournament rules and politics). Having studied in a non-JKA Shotokan school in the Philippines prior to joining the JKA, I found that the bunkai taught in JKA was just the Omote bunkai, as it is easier to teach and gives a quick method of explanation.
@IEKUKATAKA I have Patrick McCarthy's version of the Bubishi, as well as his other books on Okinawan Karate-Do. I also have Harry Cook's "Shotokan Karate: A Precise History". Besides being a long-time Karate-ka (Shotokan), I am also a current History student. My inquiry into original bunkai led me to study Okinawan Karate-Do (Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu + Goju-Ryu). I don't go by hearsay, because that has lead to many misunderstandings,even info from "credible" teachers (a lie is always a lie).
Original bunkai from my perspective deals with conceptual matters rather than specifics. Example: Okinawan karate used quick techniques to shock the head (senses) at times in order to gain time or position therefore opportunity for a vital area strike. You never see that in modern interpretations of bunkai. Because of those two facts, they cause me to look for that in kata and/or to incorporate it in training as yokusoku kumite or in kata given that bunkai are limitless to kata.
Thanks Panicus, modern karate is nothing like it was 100 - 400 years ago. The techniques have changed as we change. Very, very few people would want to go through the painfull and damaging hand conditioning that was necessary. Karate was never as gymnastic as it is now. Kicks above the knee didn't exist. The fist 'seiken' was rarely used. 'Shuto','taisho' and 'tetsui' predominated Okinawan hand to hand combat. Close and brutal. But lets face it ,we started because of all those high kicks :-)
I love this, it's really interesting to put just one part of the kata side by side - I agree a good lesson in trying to pull out the basic principal of a move and not being blinded by the minute details of your own style. How about one comparing the many versions of Bassai - Passai - Patsai - Pal Che?
Why the ??? ?. it shows how Kata technique changes through the years. Small stance, inside block, low stamp evolves to long stance, extended block and high kick. All katas have done this. A nice little video showing how a kata combination evolves. A good lesson for pupils who don't understand why the bunkai sometimes bears little resemblance to the techniques taught.
I agree with you, JStrummer, and I don't see any degradation but, as you said, evolution. A constanr improvement which led to today's Shotokan version of known old Katas - the best version yet.
Ever seen a martial arts tournament where the combatants used a sequence of katas to score a point? If the fighter can't even use them in a controlled environment with rules, how much less can one use them in no-holds-barred fighting where survival is the only rule that apply? The way you train is the way you react in a fight. Training in ineffective techniques make you a less effective fighter overall. When the SHTF gross-motor movement takes over & you revert to whatever training you have.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago 3
@dnumyar1234 I agree with you
Dharma73 1 month ago
Stylized forms & techniques are the real degradation in martial arts. They are mostly ineffective in actual combat & instills a false sense of security in the practitioner. A real fight is chaotic, brutal, dirty & unpredictable. A criminal bent on killing isn't going to cooperate with you to ensure your perfect execution of techniques against him. Katas are just make-believe exercises built upon elaborate, complicated moves that are mostly utterly useless in a true life-and-death conflict.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago 2
@dnumyar1234 well no offense, but have you ever thought that maybe solo training/kata may actually contain real self-defense within them, but that the majority of martial instruction and the majority of most people dont have the perception and hands-on experience to apply them effectively. After all, soldiers in the militaries throught history have made and revised kata to make historical accounts of their situations in combat. even boxer who trains jab/cross/hooks is training kata
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 The way you train is the way you react.The nature of kata training is to simulate a type of "fighting" that doesn't exist in reality. Don't confuse practicing execution of INDIVIDUAL techniques with PATTERNED MOVEMENTS. Real combat is chaotic, violent, ugly, dirty, & unpredictable --the exact opposite of patterned stylish kata training. Try & watch two black belts fighting in a tournament & see if you can catch them using a set of katas to score or win a fight. Bet not.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 no form of training is ever going to truly 100% be the same as real violence even the world war 2 combatives and the L.I.N.E and MCMAP systems have their flaws, because of the need for safety and awareness/preparedness which seperate training from violence. Katas are not necessarily patterned movements though, but I do see your point
Dharma73 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 thats because the movements in katas are designed solely for use in actual violence, while tournaments are not designed with lethal use of force in mind.
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 try as you may,but you will never survive REAL VIOLENCE with all the katas in the world.No offense,but katas are not DESIGNED SOLELY for use in actual violence. They're meant to preserve the art form of a particular martial art. Maybe, if you could fool a real-life criminal trying to kill you into cooperating with you while you perform kata on him, then & only then will they be effective in actual violence. Just a thought, how many female blackbelts were raped at knife point?
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 The katas are meant to be analized and the techniques and tactics and strategies are meant to be applied, thats the real point of kata, not to perform a shallow sequence of movements applied with perfect form. lol I guess were can agree to disagree on the subject matter because we view this differently,
Dharma73 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 but the difference in views does make this interesting to debate. and btw, Katas were designed by the ORIGINAL authors with combat in mind where they fought in terms of life and death, our modern-day combatives will become the traditional arts of the past one day many years from now,the paradigm of thought will always change and sway back and forth
Dharma73 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 Honestly bro, where im from I grew up living in the streets/hood, not everyone but most people I ever knew where im from have just been naturally tough, I have ex-girlfriends who have fought harder than a lot of men, with and without any combatives training, the training doesnt make you an effective combatant, people just have it in them, without the other half, theres nothig. no amount of training in the world can help you if you dont have the right spirit to fight
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 Like they say, It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 The way how you train is only half of the equation, the other half deals with how well you control your survival stress response and adrenaline, you personality, your temperment, your luck your terrain and environment, and other factors as well, combat is more about successfully getting your goals accomplished whether that be safe-guarding yourself, your principle, your self, destroying your enemy at the cost of your life, etc. It is multifaceted
Dharma73 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 but you cant compare it! a fight in a tournament is a long one, with a lot of movement. But in kata, its just block/counter in a way to kill the enmey with one punch. you cant do that in a tournament!
deadmike2 1 week ago
@Dharma73 >Ever heard of World War 2 Combatives? If not, I suggest you look into it. I have nothing against kata training if you are an avid martial artist. Just don't make the mistake of believing traditional martial arts is self-defense. Thanks!
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 yes, Im well aware of WW2 combatives and about Sykes,Fairbairn, and O'Neal, Ive been aware of them for 6 years now and I also draw some influence from Carl Cestari and Ki-Chuan-Do aka Guided Chaos but to be honest even though they all have similar and diferent/varying views on this particular subject, they are more or less the same but as Marc "Animal" McYoung even stated on his website "No-nonsense-self-defense" that people always say that traditional training methods
Dharma73 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 are not effective in terms of truthfully replicating violence and that people who are not traditionalist prey on that, but to be honest all anyone has to do is just take their training and implememnt it with stress innoculation ie. make themselves more use to realistic violence as closely as possible, with regards to safety as well
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 Well I've been a traditionalist for a long time. I practiced my katas in front of the mirror to make sure every movement is snappy & perfect--until the brutal imperfection of real fighting served as a wake up call. Being used to realistic violence alone is not enough. Rather, controlling your stress-response and REACTING EFFECTIVELY to violence is key. Again,How you train is how you react.Without proper responses,soaking up stress alone will just give you high blood pressure
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 well I agree with you on this as well, but we both said the same thing in regards to stress innoculation and adrenal stress. How you train is only half of the equation, the other half is based on how you control your adrenal stress, maintaining calmness and clarity/leveled and centeed in the midst of chaos, your personal temperment, your attiitude and personal convictions, all in all it deals with knowing yourself and defending your convictions plus controlling adrenal
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 stress and combative conditioning. Not everybody is as naturally tough as the next man, for example my ex-fiance never trained in martial arts until just a few years ago, but when she was 16 years old she was assaulted by a man and a woman who attacked her in manhattan ny in the street . My ex-fiance bit the mans pinky finger off and he will always be traumatized for that.And that was without any formal training at the time.
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 And as for myself goes, I will admit I have been stabbed badly a few times in my life but because of my training and my will to live in conjunction with me just being myself naturally, I survived and crushed my assailants to pieces, shit happenes in the ghettos of NY and its easy to get rid of bodies and evidence, long staory short there have been a few times that people tried to off me but Im still standing.
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 So for me, my training and my convictions and me being myself naturally is what led to me being successful, and plus im from the south bronx ny, Ive lived in the ghetto all of my life and the violence in NY is LIVE donw here, even when I was in prison lol but thats a different story. But no two people are exactly the same so what works well for one person will not necessarily work well for the next person,
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 My friend, that is exactly my point! You have to become violence to violent people.We are all natural killers.Criminals don't need martial arts training to be effective in killing.All it takes is the will or INTENTION to kill.But, like you said, not everyone is raised with an understanding of real violence & how to use it in self defense, & that is exactly what combat training should address.Crushing the throat or busting the eyes to stop an attacker need no katas to perform.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
Again, it all boils down to what you have ingrained in the sinews of your being to enable you to utilize the inner strength within. More than likely, a boxer would react with a punch, a ju-jitsu man with a lock or grapple, a TKD man with a kick--depending on that person's training. Whatever, however, the bottom line is SURVIVAL.Training determines how a person reacts. This is one reason why an untrained person is often more effective than one who learned an impractical martial art.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 I see where your coming from, I hated doing katas for years because I never saw the value in them until I became 19 years old and then I started to see the value and effective combative applications in them regarding effective uses of violence.
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 it's funny that I like performing katas before, because I thought they are the "be-all-end-all" in self-defense, thinking that the more katas I master the more effective I will be in combat.Our sensei explained (in meticulous detail) the supposed applications of those katas. However, I learned after years of UN-learning katas that mastering just a few EFFECTIVE techniques aimed at vital targets is what really works. ("It is not daily increase but daily decrease" --Bruce Lee)
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
We mention the word "violence" many times. But KATAs are not reflective of what real violence is. Merely punching & kicking against an imaginary opponent is simply not violent enough. REAL VIOLENCE is taking a knife in one's gut or throat. Being raped, mugged, or almost beaten to death is just a small portion of real violence. Those are the things that we must take into consideration in training. Violence is the result of INTENT TO KILL or DESTROY.
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
A criminal is a breathing, thinking being & he uses his INTENT as power to harm others. He only has this power as long as he is able to THINK. Take out his brain & you take out the threat. How? by shutting him down...by destroying his ability to pursue his evil intentions...by destroying vital targets in his body until he can no longer harm you...and by being able to do all that....
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 I appreciate the difference in your opinion though, Im only guessing that you would also like the Target-Focus-Training system, the SCARS system, Peyton Quinn, marc Animal McYoung, Tony Blauer and his SPEAR system, Guided Chaos, Laurence Kane and Wilder, Lorrence Christianson, Lee Morris, Carl E Cesstari, Clint Sporman, and Rene Morales, check into them if you have not, you might like them and their differnt approaches.
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 >I've been involved in the fighting arts for 31 years and I am well aware of all those fine systems you mentioned. I agree, no system can replicate real violence, but what you want to train in is a system that will make you more effective in real combat. Like i said, real combat is unpredictable, dirty, brutal.. and no training in the world is effective until you make YOURSELF effective. And one of the ways to do that is to prepare for real violence
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 Right on!!! I like the way you presented that.I do agree with you on this subject, but our only difference in opinion is based on kata/solo training but I do get your point and agree with you on your view. But katas are not limited to being patternized, even though most schools of thought teach them that way. Anything can become a kata but in my honest opinion kata training is shadowfighting and everyone who trains in MA/SD does it. We all train solo to different
Dharma73 1 month ago
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Dharma73 1 month ago
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Dharma73 1 month ago
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@dnumyar1234 degrees, but at the end of it all training solo is in essence kata practice, btw 31 years, thats impressive, im only 24 years of age and ive been in the MA/SD from the age of 5 yrs. Its not about time, but what you accomplish with it.
Dharma73 1 month ago
@Dharma73 >as you know, the human body is made up of muscles & organs controlled by the nervous & endocrine systems. You learn responses based on your training. Under extreme stress, fine motor-skills (used in most katas) are lost, GROSS MOTOR MOVEMENTS take over. It's a simple thing once you realize how the body respond to extreme stress. A criminal bent on killing won't just stand there & cooperate while his victim executes a series of katas on him..well you get the point. Take care!
dnumyar1234 1 month ago
@dnumyar1234 Theres also the huge possibility/percentage of pulling of complex motor skills in combat under adrenal stress, as long as the individual has experience in doing so ie: Training under duress stress innoculation/and having/maintaining control over their adrenaline and excitement.
Dharma73 1 month ago
dude... its a matter how you apply it... first vid you got mainly mai geri and 2 zukis, last vid (t asai by the way is one of the greatest karateka the world has ever seen!) there is kaki-zuki and yoko geri, if the enemy comes from left or right, this makes more sense than to turn and fight ahead
deadmike2 2 months ago 2
you mean... degradation of the quality of the image... HA HA HA.
charlesrmday 6 months ago 4
so whats the problem.... same basic moves slightly different ...as long as it dont close off the door to multiple application
Carl2 9 months ago
Hey!! This guy is trying to get lots of views. The one who is doing karate, is practiceing and shuts his mouth with all the useless observations! In every person it can be seen a very different abordation of the same style, but in different styles... Bye!
vladykohai 9 months ago 3
Everything taken out of context does not help people understand what Kata is all about.
WildRonin 10 months ago
Everything taken out of context does not help people understand what Kata is all about.
WildRonin 10 months ago
@WildRonin I agree with you
Dharma73 1 month ago
jka shotokanized all the stances, they changed the face of karate
pedrochavezmendez 1 year ago
Kata is very important part of karate, without kata no karate!!!!!
Vkurganow 1 year ago
Take a look at the movements in our kata ,especially shotokan, and then match them up against an enemy holding you at bay with a bayonet spear,rifle ot saber. Many of our techniques work perfectly in these senarios. There is an excellent book called Shotokans hidden secrets. I highly recommend this read. It will make you think differently about kata application and the original purpose of our kata. Let me know what you think.
Mr23748 1 year ago
These bodyguards( Matsumura, Itosu ect ) did not have time to roll around with their enemy. They needed to dispatch the enemy and get back to the person who they were protecting. This is the true reason that we are told to return to the starting point of the kata. The enemy/ threat is out in front and to the sides of us. The person we are protecting is behind us. The kata have us venturing out into the mob dipatching the enemy and then returning back to the persn we are protecting.
Mr23748 1 year ago
The karate experts of the time, who were responsible for the creation of the Heian Kata and others, were bodyguards for the Okinawan Nobles of the Shurie Castle and ther Karate reflected what was needed to protect these Nobles. The Kata are blue prints on how to battle against a mob senario. This explains why there are few submissions,chokes and grappling techniques found in our Kata. Instead you find very strong, fast linier techniques that focus on a one strike stop/kill technique.
Mr23748 1 year ago
The enemy were foreign invaders who came to okinawa to try and establish and open trade relations with Japan. These invaders were Americans under the command of Commodore Perry. What were their weapons? Bayonets, rifles, knives etc. Has any one asked themselves why most of our Kata blocks focus on mid level. This is because for the person holding the weapon the largest target was the human torso. Our kata contain blocks that deal specificly with this threat.
Mr23748 1 year ago
The reason kata application is a source of speculation is mainly because the kata have evolved over time and that different schools of karate interpert movements differently. The original purpose of the Japanese Karate Kata has been misunderstood by many. The movements were not designed to defend against an un armed opponent but rather against an enemy armed with a bayonet, spear, dagger or other type of long range weapon. Remember, weapons were banned on Okinawa so who was the enemy?
Mr23748 1 year ago
@Mr23748 well said, yes the kata were meant to be used as training to fight against an armed assailant in fact i once read that some researchers believe that all kata were meant for that purpose, the purpose being to defend against an armed person to 1) preferably take away his weapon or negate it until you can get one of your own 2) last resort to seriously injure or kill the attacker that has a weapon when you you don't have one.
LosBats 1 year ago
@Mr23748 I also mean to say "when they want to kill you!!" thats what kata is for and thats the mentality that it is meant to train. Some believe (myself included) that kata is also designed to train for use of weapons as well i.e fighting with or without weapons the movements and mentality are the same so it shouldn't matter. I agree that the meanings of kata have been misinterpreted, i think the okinawans to some degree did this on purpose when they taught Japanese in the early years.
LosBats 1 year ago
@Mr23748 but i also think that funakoshi sensei also taught a training method of karate (a "DO") not so much a combat method (JUTSU) which his students named shotokan and with the introduction of sporting competition and more Japanese influences that came with popularity it went away from the Kempo that funakoshi and the other Masters practiced and became what today is traditional karate which is more performance based than anything else, Well thats my two cents. Arigatou gozaiimasu *Bow*
LosBats 1 year ago
@LosBats Well said right back at you. The book that I mentioned is an excellent read. It actually gives insight to to the possible mind set of the karate men of that time. To many people spend to much time trying to figure out Kata's place within Karate and become frustated when the techniques don't seem to match up with any so called realistic street attack. The truth is that the Karate fight you see today is based on kick.punch,sweep take down and leans more toward sport rather then war fare.
Mr23748 1 year ago
@LosBats The kata are passed down records of the techniques that were utilized at that time during battle.The Shotokan Kata practiced today how ever had been changed from there original Okinawin look. This was partially due to the fact that when Funakoshi arrived in Japan and intoduced Okinawin Karate into the public school system he found it necessary to eliminate many movements that were deemed dangerous. The emphasis was now on health, fitness and character development.
Mr23748 1 year ago
@Mr23748 actualy that was not Funakoshi Gishins doing but Anko Itosu's
it was funakoshi's son that came up with the O Waza Ko Waza principle and as a result the stances became deeper
If you can find the book Karate Jutsu "the original teachings of master funakoshi you will see stances that look more like the okinawan stances
Toudiyama 1 year ago
@LosBats You are correct in saying that there is a weapons component to our Kata. Remember before Funakoshi Sensei arrived in Japan he trained on the Island of Okinawa and was brought up within Okinawin martial arts culture. He was familiar with the sai. bo etc. Common sense dictates that these weapons were not permited within the educational system and as time went by' there place within Funakosh's Karate was discarded.
Mr23748 1 year ago
kata is the heart of karate
TheShotokankarateguy 1 year ago
OMG! A front snap kick "degraded" into a side thrust kick...
mooseven 1 year ago
dont really see the point of this video
Darragh62 1 year ago
I think you should call evolution of karate.Everything changes.who dont changes die.If you see a karate man doing Kata today ,you realese that this guy is more technical and is better than a guy who did kata 100 year ago.Some changes are good other are bad.That is life.
ronaldtor5 1 year ago
The original purpose of kata was to serve as a reference book ( unwritten form ) for self defense sequences to also be practiced with an opponent. Modern kata seems to serve the purpose of developing skill in techniques and to be performed in contests to see who looks the most deadly .
Ronin6575 1 year ago
Too bad the founder of Wado-Ryu actually trained in Shotokan before creating wado-ryu
ThePurdude 1 year ago
I think the kata could be called degraded when the teacher doesn't know what he 's transmitting. This being the case some might be accused of adjusting movements to suit their own dojofied application where as the original movements represented real life developed nastiness. Kata is always evolving,even if the human body isn't. Isn't that what the jka did soon as Funakoshi passed away. Made stances longer and deeper even though the early works were more practical. Read Motobu Choki for insight
djhands01 1 year ago
¿Degradacion?. No estoy seguro. Creo que formas diferentes de hacer lo mismo y todas son buenas cuando son bien comprendidas y se tiene claro lo que se esta haciendo
OkinawaT 1 year ago
Asai Sensei was a genius. I've met him when I was a teenager and he was already at advanced age. He could move in a way few people can. His performance of Nijushiho is one of the best I've seen and I think the way he portrays Nijushiho is the way it should be. That's evolution. Besides, he could really apply those technics in real combat...
PiollaPUGNAX 1 year ago
...not too sure what this vid was supposed to establish. But anyway, Karateka, instead of trying to find whatever meaning there is to kata and making Karate-do sound so mystical in the process; how about we just practise it for physical fitness and the polishing of basic technique. At least that's my reason for doing it, just a suggestion
hiranom20 1 year ago
degradation? do you understand what's the REAL objetive of kata? they are pretty useless as a combat technique themselves, no matter if they are "correct" or modified (karate kid III it's just fantasy haha) kata it's meaningless without your own understandig of karate, a mere sequence of choreographic movements... kata is training for the mind, no matter if you do a old or modern style, it's objetive is the same...
soparamens 1 year ago 14
I still like Asai's (current Shotokan) version better than the others...
deadguy29 2 years ago
the man executing Nijushiho in old Karate Dojo is not Isao Obata. His name is Fasajiro Takagi,General Secretary Ex-WUKO.
tokaidosan 2 years ago
This is not degradation of the essence of Karate. JKA has been the only organization to study Karate in Scientific basis. Asai Sensei introduced the two kekome on the Kata. This is called evolution, not degradation
tokaidosan 2 years ago
Yup
Bassai 1 year ago
Bassai, I have known and trained with Iekukataka off and on for 10+ years, every thing he is telling you is legit. I have seen his original JKA certificate. Not that an anonymous person on YouTube lends any added legitimacy or credibility to what any body else claims. I know many of his peers and they can vouch for his experience from before i knew him / was even born.
aodell531 2 years ago
@aodell531 No disrespect, but anybody and everybody can say that. So when I receive info from the internet, Youtube especially, I'd rather receive fact backed up by actual documentation. Even a JKA certificate (mine included) does not mean much, I've met many disillusioned practitioners in the same organization.
Bassai 2 years ago
I believe that the core difference comes from the fact that the Okinawans used To De Jutsu as a true means for defending their lives. The mainland Japanese interpretation is a sport meant to be taught in the school system in a standardized format. As such it is meant to be safer for its participants. Nishiyama, here in the US, further degraded the art by trying to make it acceptable for the Olympics. The primacy of Funakoshi's Okinawan method has been largely abandoned by most practitioners
aodell531 2 years ago
You could also blame Funakoshi himself for that, or the other Okinawan pioneers such as Mabuni, Motobu, etc. The JKA was formed in 1949 with Funakoshi as Chief Instructor. Though 80 at the time, he still was very sharp as testified by his students, JKA or either. He oversaw the training curriculum and if you watch old JKA videos circa 1950's prior to Gichin's death in 1957, little has changed since. I agree sport degraded the art, but kihon and its practice are relatively the same.
Bassai 1 year ago
Comment removed
aodell531 2 years ago
The high kicks, low stances... make very good to the body. The issue is to take it to your applications and kumite, the way nearly all people today do...
wateronthesmoke 2 years ago
I love seeing the comparisons so close together, great job on whoever made the video, but I also dont see any "degradation", just different ways of doing the same thing.
farorin 2 years ago
I don't see the degradation. If you'd like to post a video opinion, back it up with a logical argument. Bunkai changes like this: Kata and bunkai was passed from teacher to pupil. Pupil becomes teacher and decides to change kata and bunkai because he sees thinks his version is better. He then teaches it to his pupil.... and so on and so forth. That's how it was in Okinawa, as well as Japan
Bassai 2 years ago
Kata was developed from jissen and yakosuku kumite. It included defense against weapons and unarmed assailants. The degradation exists but is not clear in the video. The JKA changed their original Okinawan kata because they are arrogant and still are so. Their kata largely do not have weapons bunkai, even though they speak of such, and now are used primarily for tournament competition and dojo training for their limited kumite style. How do I know? I am a life member now studying Ko Ryu Ho.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
I agree with you , but I saw the degradation in technique's essence .
And I go ahead . The Japanese changed the original Okinawan kata because they doesn't understood that kind of technique . Classical Japanese martial arts are all standardized . The have the "grappling" division , "atemi" division , "throw" division , "sword" division , etc ...
Okinawa Bujutsu is different from this , and Japanese people doesn't understand this point .
Sorry for the bad english .
Peace .
FiasaPower 2 years ago
English not so bad, I understood it. They changed the style for two reasons: Yoshitake Funakoshi was very dynamic and his father would not rein him in. They are arrogant and believe their way is best even though this was proclaimed by a group that was about 25 years old when they did so and were comparing themselves to an art that was about 1000 years old in general terms. Arrogance from a generation spawned in militarism. now they are a sport. Sad, such potential wasted by an attitude.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
Not sure what you mean that kata came from "jissen" and "yakusoku" kumite... What sources are you getiing this info from (written please, not by hearsay)? BTW, it's a normal thing for masters to change kata. This behavior existed even in Okinawa, despite the taboo rule to change kata. Example, you have so many version of Kusanku... There's Kanku-Dai, Kanku-Sho, Chatanyara Kusanku, Kosokun Dai, Kosokun Sho, etc. Even Funakoshi himself changed the Itosu's Pinans to current Heians.
Bassai 2 years ago
You sound like a lawyer. Okinawan written history was largely destroyed during the invasion of WWII. However, traditional history, parallel logic and some written accounts speak of the same unwritten yet logical process. See the Bubishi and The History of Shotokan Karate for written opinions. Here is mine: A practitioner of old wants to record his experiences in a way he can practice. What are his experiences? That is Jissen or actual fights he had to endure. From those fights, he (see next)
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
Next: developed a set of scenarios he could practice himself, kata, or some he may have practiced with another, yakusoku kumite. From those formats comes the ability to imagine others realistically or may have been experiential. So, the pattern repeats; more experience, more kata, more yakusoku kumite. That is how traditional kata and yakusoku kumite become the backbone of karate focused on self defense. Sports focused karate has no substance and it can be seen easily by the karate jutsu-ka.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
As for all masters changing kata; not so. Change does not have to be a part of the equation but it is to some degree. Change, for the sake of change, is destructive and forces loss of insight. However, changing something slightly to clarify it or to involve bunkai is relatively normal. Look at the various traditonal exponents doing kururunfa, it is largely the same. However, get a westerner or a sports karate-ka involved, destructive change is going to happen because of focus change. Help any?
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
The general concept of degredation as I use it refers to the degredation of intent. Karate was, and is, although many in the west selfishly deny it, an Okinawan art of self defense. It is degraded by the selfish needs of those refusing to adhere to this tenet. They use the name yet destroy the primal motives and techniques for selfish gain. If you are a jutsuka and change a portion of a kata slightly to strenghten a bunkai, few would care as both the original and the new could be done. in like
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
manner, changing an original kata dramatically and keeping the name is rude, selfish and arrogant. However, the good news is that old kata are there to be found and even changed kata can be further altered to include realistic bunkai. After all, if they have been altered, improving them as regards bunkai and for the purpose of practice becomes the point. I do not do the JKA Kankudai the same as they do, I assigned realistic bunkai and it became a more meaningful kata to train with. Bunkai first.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA But if you look at Fujian / Fukkien White Crane Kung-Fu kata (quanfa) it resembles, but differs greatly, to much of the Naha-Te kata of today. So the trend of learning kata, changing it for whatever purpose and recreating it as new is a natural thing a martial artist does. It follows the pattern of the Zen precept: Shu-Ha-Ri. Learn from your teacher, form your own opinion, break away from tradition.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA So are the changes made a degradation? It depends on the practicality of the bunkai, Omote, Ura or Okuden. Only the author of the change would know. Is it disrespectful to its original author of the kata? Only if you don't change the name of the kata (you and I agree). However, I don't agree that a westerner's hand in Karate is a bad thing. I am currently studying Brazilian Jujitsu (Serra's in Long Island, NY) and this experience enhances my view on all bunkai. Ossu!
Bassai 2 years ago
Glad you find BJ good for you, it is certainly effective. However, with few exceptions relatively speaking, the western karate I see is fabricated, contrived, uneducated, deluded and permeated with an attitude. That is why I am leary of westerners and martial arts. I live in a town of about 200k and, to the best of my knowledge, there are no (zero) real traditional schools and fraud is pandemic. It is sickening and a testimony to what we have become in the west. Karate is Okinawan, period.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA I was frustrated because I needed to know more Ura bunkai, so I joined a Matsubayashi-Ryu dojo (Crevani Sensei) to understand kata better (unknown to Mori Sensei, who's doing fine and had stopped smoking before I joined his school). When I discovered that the Omote bunkai of Kusanku didn't differ much from JKA's Omote bunkai of Kanku-Dai, I was disappointed. But when we were shown Ura bunkai of Kusanku, it was about the same as the Ura bunkai I had learned in my Philippine dojo.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Asai, in his version of Nijushiho, only changed the side stomp kicks to side thrust kicks to the rib area. I thought the original kicks were more effective, but when I had discussed this change with my teacher, Mori Sensei (JKA, NY), he said both were equally effective, as side thurst kicks are currently considered omote bunkai (obvious) and the original stomp kicks as Ura bunkai (hidden, alternative).
Bassai 2 years ago
I can see that and have no issue with either. I do have an issue with the execution of the old fumikomi but that is probably not relevant. I met Mori in Lexington, SC years ago when I was a student of Nishiyama. Is his health better? I remember seeing Nishiyama and him smoking like two chimneys every chance they got.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA In the subject of which bunkai is more effective, old or new, I have to say that is all up to the practitioner or the background of his teacher. After discovering bunkai of Kusanku while studying Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu, I learned that compared to Shotokan Kanku-Dai, it wasn't really more practical at all. The applications were so similar to the Ura bunkai of Kanku-Dai I had learned while training in the Philippines (mid-90's) so I was a little surprised.
Bassai 2 years ago
Keeping in mind that karate underwent a surge in development after the Satsuma invasion, I have to believe that a lot of bunkai is weapons based or inside fighting based. Too much Shotokan bunkai is assumed to happen from outside fighting. That is nonsense because large first strike techniques from a distance are not effective in general. I believe training that covers the most logical events was and is intelligent. Bunkai against a thrown pencil is not likely of significant contribution.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Your concept / strategy of original bunkai (shocking the head before applying a seconary technique) isn't too different to many modern Karate lessons today. It's the same thing as the one-two concept. Blow to the head, follow up with a secondary attack (throw/grapple/strike). IIn relation to kata, it is as Ura bunkai. Usually practiced in kumite, not for sport but for simple street sparring, and separate from kata practice. Many Shotokan dojos (some JKA even) practice this today.
Bassai 2 years ago
Maybe you have experienced this type technique in Shotokan, I have not. I have trained with Nishiyama, Koyama, Okazaki, Mikami, Takashina, Katsumata, Ochi, Oichi, Kawasoe and Yaguchi, never saw it but knew it existed from Japan days as a Marine. I am talking about typically kai shu waza used to distract and edicted by short order circumstances. BTW, from this realizationcame the revelation of how shuto, teisho, seiryuto, kakuto etc are really used and I definitely never saw that in the JKA.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Also, Nakayama had taught blocks used as attacks as well, which its idea derived from Ura bunkai. For example, Age-Uke in Heian Shodan could be used as an upward forearm strike to the jaw, followed up by a takedown. Sadly, this approach to practicing kata and bunkai is absent to many JKA dojos, though many of the old masters (Mori Sensei included) used to train this way long before the JKA had formed.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Mikami Sensei initially taught my Filipino teacher when he was stationed there in the 60's. When I asked my teacher, Pocholo Veguillas Sensei, where he had learned Shotokan bunkai from (he had broken off the JKA in the 70's and joined another non-JKA Shotokan dojo) he said he learned the Heian and Tekki bunkai from Mikami Sensei. This included Shuto-uke used as Shut-Uchi, Age Uke as a forearm strike, takedowns in Tekki Shodan, etc.
Bassai 2 years ago
You just made my poinnt and did not know it. You spoke of hearsay earlier, Mikami said.... The heian kata are kihon kata. They are for practice of kihon contained in them and a base for other kata called kumite kata. The heian kata were intentionally not assigned bunkai for this reason. Bunkai can be applied to any technique. Mikami apparently did so, I have done the same in order to explain how a techniques can differ. Original heian kata had no bunkai per Nishiyama, senior to Mikami.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA @IEKUKATAKA How can you say that Heian kata had no bunkai when that's what Funakoshi taught? Kata and bunkai after mastery of kata, as stated by Funakoshi in his book: Karate-Do Kyohan. In Cook's book, there are numerous stories and pictures of Shotokan Karate-Ka practicing bunkai. If you study closely, Heian kata came from Itosu's Pinan kata, which includes the practice of bunkai.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Changes made in Pinan kata by Funakoshi was due to a need for lower stances and strengthening of the legs. At this time, numerous challenges by Jujitsu practitioners may have lead to this change. I'm not sure your source of info on original intent of Heian kata... How can Nishyama say that when that's Funakoshi's method of teaching Karate, as per books by Nakayama, Cook, etc..?
Bassai 2 years ago
Nishiyama said that because he was a direct student of Funakoshi. BTW, not one book you have was written by Funakoshi, they are all illigitimate translations and publications. That came from Nishiyama sensei also.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA So you are saying, Oshima, who was a direct student of Funakoshi himself, did an illegitimate translation? I find that hard to believe. I am aware there was a conflict between Oshima and Nishiyama in the early days, hence I would expect Nishiyama to say that, but where is the proof for that statement? Also, your facts about Yoshitaka was all wrong, despite your experience. And to say "Original heian kata had no bunkai per Nishiyama, senior to Mikami. " makes no sense when
Bassai 2 years ago
@Bassai I agree whit you and i'm in the same position as you... But just for that point no body realy study whit Funakoshi Ô senseï because after the second world war no body could train in martial art in japan and in this time Funakoshi Ô sensei had something like 85 or 90 years old!! Oshima wasn't a direct student of Funakoshi Ô sensei but a student in the Waseda Uneversity whit Harada sensei... And Funakoshi was some time there but he never gave a cours in this time...
zakardo 1 year ago
@zakardo Nakayama, one of the JKA founders, started studying under Funakoshi in 1932, when O sensei was only around 64 years old. Only 11 years earlier, in 1921, did O sensei introduce Karate-Do to Japan. World War 2 ended in the Pacific in 1945, when Funakoshi was 77 years old. Nishiyama, another JKA founder, trained in the Shotokan headquarters in 1946, when O sensei was 78.
Obata Isao, another JKA founder, practiced under Funakoshi much earlier than both Nakayama and Nishiyama.
Bassai 1 year ago
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@zakardo Nakayama, one of the JKA founders, started studying under Funakoshi in 1932, when O sensei was only around 64 years old. Only 11 years earlier, in 1921, did O sensei introduce Karate-Do to Japan. World War 2 ended in the Pacific in 1945, when Funakoshi was 77 years old. Nishiyama, another JKA founder, trained in the Shotokan headquarters in 1946, when O sensei was 78.
Obata Isao, another JKA founder, practiced under Funakoshi much earlier than both Nakayama and Nishiyama.
Bassai 1 year ago
@IEKUKATAKA Nishiyama himself illustrates bunkai for Heian Yondan in his own book, Karate, The Art of Empty Hand Fighting. He also states the origins of the kata had been originally handed down as the Pinan, which is practiced with bunkai. Harry Cook, the historian, who never trained under the JKA, uses the same book translated by Oshima for reference in his Shotokan: A Precise History.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA I don't doubt your experience with the JKA at all. I have met many people in the JKA who did not understand a thing about real Shotokan fighting despite them being with the JKA since 60's and 70's (Japanese included) and I blame the JKA exactly for that. However I don't blame the style, Shotokan, for it as JKA is only a faction of many other Shotokan schools who train the original way. JKA is only the other major association amongst many that splintered after Funakoshi had died.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA As I had mentioned earlier, Isao Obata had left in the mid-fifties because of the same disappointment Nishiyama had with the JKA. Obata, one of Funakoshi's leading students and Nishiyama's senior, left sand started his own school. That explains why my teacher in the Philippines broke off from the JKA too and joined another non-JKA Shotokan school in Manila.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA As for the Japanese distorting Karate, blame the Okinawans themselves. Okinawans like Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Miyagi, etc. It was their decision to introduce Karate to the Japanese. The Japanese never wrenched it from them. It is the nature for Japanese/ American/ Filipino/English/French.. whoever - to take the martial art they had learned and transform it to what they believe would make it better. Okinawans are guilty of it too, but the Chinese aren't complaining.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Bassai Okinawan masters have changed katas as well. These were original movements from kung fu, example white crane and goju. Obvious changes there. One of funakoshis teachers also changed katas, and created new ones. Changes of katas, and mixing of styles is the truest tradition of them all. And shotokan just followed history.
Yourmomishre 1 year ago
@IEKUKATAKA I don't mean to offend you, but I understand your frustration with shortcomings JKA style training and sport Karate. But I expected that when I initially joined the JKA anyways. However, I do admit that I like watching tournaments. I don't think kata should be a tournament sport at all, but shobu sanbon kumite is amusing to watch. I was very elated when I discovered JKA-trained Lyoto Machida fighting in the UFC, using kumite footwork, distancing and timing (my inspiration to do bjj)
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Your statement that not one book I have was written by Funakoshi, (Karate-Do Kyohan, Karate-Do Nyumon, Karate-Do My Way of Life, Tote-Jutsu *his first book with his own pictures performing techiniques and bunkai*) were not written by Funakoshi himself, because Nishiyama simply said so, is truly hard to believe because he was not the only student of Funakoshi. He himself wrote his own book explaining kata the same way Funakoshi's books do.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA As for Okinawan way of training, as per Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu tradition, you are supposed to take the bunkai of kata and apply them in yakusoku (pre-arranged) fighting and drilled repeatedly so that the techniques would become an automatic response for self defense. BTW, according to Hironori Otsuka, founder of Wado-Ryu and one of Funakoshi's first Japanese students, Shotokan kihon was developed by his generation to make kata and kumite easier to master.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Again, I don't doubt your experience with the JKA. and I don't mean disrespect. Its just that some of what you are saying can be rebutted with written sources from authors who have just as a legitimate background as you. I wish you could write a book on what you experienced and what you believe in, then I'd buy it, read it and come up with a clearer conclusion of your statements.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Even Nishiyama himself executes bunkai application of Heian Yondan in his book: Karate: The Way of Empty Hand Fighting? In his videos, he also shows applications to Jitte, as he is attacked with a staff by Kanazawa? I'm not sure about your source of info.
Bassai 2 years ago
45 years of training is the source. Time is the source, experience with each person I trained with is the source. Believe what you like, however, another person with much more experience knows you tend to see things as black and white and need to listen more than you talk.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Actually, Nishiyama's book, which contains Heian Yondan omote bunkai, is titled: Karate, The Art of Empty Hand Fighting. It was published in 1960, prior to MIkami's stationing in the Philippines in 1961. So, I'm not sure why Nishiyama would tell you that. Were you practicing with him in California?
Bassai 2 years ago
You misunderstand. The heian kata were not intended to be the base of kumite but rather the base of kihon, practicing technique. That does not mean bunkai can not be assigned. Much of the Heian kata can be found in the kumite kata where bunkai is important. Nishiyama told me many things that took time to understand. At 27, you simply have not had enough time or experience to put a lot of this together. Give your self some time before you become an expert.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Also, in the same book, you have Kanazawa and OKazaki performing the bunkai to Heian Yondan. I believe the degradation of Karate in JKA began when tournament training was put over old way of Karate bunkai training. Only a few masters today would bring out the old bunkai lessons on an occasion in the dojo or if they were called to do a special seminar. I had to badger Mori sensei from time to time, hoping he was in the mood to show the meaning of some movements in kata.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA However, in my old dojo in the Philippines, bunkai was part of your examination and was practiced regularly, aside from jiyu kumite practice. The reason why I joined the JKA in NYC, was because it was the only legit Shotokan dojo accessible to me. The others were either run by scam artists or were too far from me. As I had said, I was frustrated with the bunkai training with the JKA, so I tried Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Crevani Sensei).
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA I also trained in the Kyokushin dojo (Sensei Gorai) after leaving Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (due to conflicting schedules... the classes started way too late for me 8:30 pm to 9:30 or 10:00) to have a taste of their way of training. I left when I earned my Ikkyu, and now I'm training in BJJ (Matt Serra's in L.I.). So how did you get to train with all these Shotokan teachers?
Bassai 2 years ago
Maybe you did not read my profile or did not understand some of what I said. I started doing this in 1964, I am no beginner. It is quite common for a teacher to have others come to instruct. Over this length of time training with that many people is easy rather than hard. I also gathered many of my opinons from talking to them.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA I also find it strange that you would say: "BTW, from this realization came the revelation of how shuto, teisho, seiryuto, kakuto etc are really used and I definitely never saw that in the JKA." despite your long history with the JKA, because Nakayama explains the applications of the techniques in his book "Dynamic Karate" published by Kodansha in 1966. I also was in Enoeda Sensei's (before he died) summer camp in NY/CT and he explained the applications of Jitte (w/ Teisho Uchi).
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA The assumption that all Shotokan bunkai depends on long-distance fighting is not true at all, as it is a misconception of many Karate-ka. If you look at Shotokan bunkai, you'll notice that almost all defending techniques require you to step into the opponent's space. For example, every blocking technique in Heian Shodan requires you to step into your opponents attack, instead of moving backwards.
Bassai 2 years ago
My point is exactly that, all bunkai are given by another attacking you. That presumes your counter technique will be effective. What if it isn't? Then there is the case of your not perceiving an attack and an opponent is all over you, where is that bunkai? Son, I don't mean to be impudent, but I have been doing this 45 years. I think, having trained with who I have trained with, that I would know the nature of JKA karate. I do and now practice Ko Ryu Ho because Shotokan has limited itself.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA Even Nakayama has these techniques in his Karate for practical self-defense books. JKA's mass production of black belts has degraded the art to a point. But Shotokan techniques are limited only by the practitioner himself. Example, I have trained in Shotokan most of my life and I have used it well a few times. Because my teacher made us do continuous kumite besides traditional point fighting, I understood the danger of an opponent who could withstand simple block and punch.
Bassai 2 years ago
Keep in mind, it incorporated just after WWII and under the tutelage of Yoshitaka Funakoshi primarily, he was a young man and did not carry on his Fathers karate style. Shotokan karate is 65 years old. They did not cover all the bases and limited themselves because of a sporting focus. Ko Ryu Ho is centuries old and is limitless in information and application. If you ever really got involved, you would do nothing else as it covers the entire spectrum of self defense and includes weapons.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA That's not true. Yoshitaka died of tuberculosis in 1945, before the war's end in the same year. Sport Karate did not happen in the JKA until 1957 (first tournament). Tournament rules did not take place until a year or so before that. Nakayama needed rules because students were maiming each other in Kokan-Geiko between schools. Though Funakoshi introduced Karate to mainland Japan in 1921, Shotokan was not instated until 1936. Gigo (Yoshitaka) studied Karate in Okinawa.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA I would also like to point out that not all the masters changed kata, but some did. Another example would be Hanashiro Chomo's Passai as compared to Chotoku Kyan's Passai. Both had learned it from the same teacher, Itosu, as did Funakoshi, but versions of each differ in so many ways. It was also known that many had learned kata from Chinese teachers in Fujian, having the opportunity to travel there. Kanryo Higaonna, for example, is said to have learned White Crane Kung-Fu in Fujian.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA We share the same feelings towards sports Karate, as it had degraded the art to a point. I also dislike the changing of kata for aesthetic reasons rather than practical application purposes, as is the trend in sports Karate today. However, in JKA's defense, I'd like to point out that the changes the original changes they made in kata as taught by Funakoshi wre also bunkai based, during its pre-tournament era (Nijushiho above example).
Bassai 2 years ago
Been with the JKA since 1964, am a life member in Japan where I studied. Except in Japan when I was there, the bunkai I see are largely nonsense and unrealistic. They give the appearance of being uneducated, inexperienced, ill thought out. Mario Higaonna does not have that problem, He is a traditional jutsu-ka and wants, demands a martial focus, the true nature of karate.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA As I stated, original changes the JKA did with kata where made before tournaments, while Isao Obata was still with them (according to Harry Cook's book, he left because he didn't agree with the tournament rules and politics). Having studied in a non-JKA Shotokan school in the Philippines prior to joining the JKA, I found that the bunkai taught in JKA was just the Omote bunkai, as it is easier to teach and gives a quick method of explanation.
Bassai 2 years ago
@IEKUKATAKA I have Patrick McCarthy's version of the Bubishi, as well as his other books on Okinawan Karate-Do. I also have Harry Cook's "Shotokan Karate: A Precise History". Besides being a long-time Karate-ka (Shotokan), I am also a current History student. My inquiry into original bunkai led me to study Okinawan Karate-Do (Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu + Goju-Ryu). I don't go by hearsay, because that has lead to many misunderstandings,even info from "credible" teachers (a lie is always a lie).
Bassai 2 years ago
Original bunkai from my perspective deals with conceptual matters rather than specifics. Example: Okinawan karate used quick techniques to shock the head (senses) at times in order to gain time or position therefore opportunity for a vital area strike. You never see that in modern interpretations of bunkai. Because of those two facts, they cause me to look for that in kata and/or to incorporate it in training as yokusoku kumite or in kata given that bunkai are limitless to kata.
IEKUKATAKA 2 years ago
Thanks Panicus, modern karate is nothing like it was 100 - 400 years ago. The techniques have changed as we change. Very, very few people would want to go through the painfull and damaging hand conditioning that was necessary. Karate was never as gymnastic as it is now. Kicks above the knee didn't exist. The fist 'seiken' was rarely used. 'Shuto','taisho' and 'tetsui' predominated Okinawan hand to hand combat. Close and brutal. But lets face it ,we started because of all those high kicks :-)
JStrummer666 2 years ago
Very nice! What else can I say?
cumanagoto 2 years ago
I love this, it's really interesting to put just one part of the kata side by side - I agree a good lesson in trying to pull out the basic principal of a move and not being blinded by the minute details of your own style. How about one comparing the many versions of Bassai - Passai - Patsai - Pal Che?
randyslicker 2 years ago
Why the ??? ?. it shows how Kata technique changes through the years. Small stance, inside block, low stamp evolves to long stance, extended block and high kick. All katas have done this. A nice little video showing how a kata combination evolves. A good lesson for pupils who don't understand why the bunkai sometimes bears little resemblance to the techniques taught.
JStrummer666 2 years ago 4
I agree with you, JStrummer, and I don't see any degradation but, as you said, evolution. A constanr improvement which led to today's Shotokan version of known old Katas - the best version yet.
PanicusVulgaris 2 years ago
??? too...
h3liosmotorcycles 2 years ago
???
goraisan 2 years ago