Great scene. you can almost see the a chess board with there words. Every move she try's, Octavian counters and attacks until she has no moves of her own left.
He reigned longest and was the greatest roman emperor because he knew how to play politics and solidery. His reign ushered in a 200 year peace in the west that hasnt been matched since.
i hate octavian in this. he is a sociopath and has some serious issues. he is so awkward and odd that watching him makes one uncomfortable. marc antony was right on when he said in the show that octavian has never fought a battle and has lived off the accomplishments of Julius Caesar
This film should actuelly be BANNED because of TEASING a REALITY changin history and historical characters. What a stupidddddddd un-political discussion between this FAKE None-Cleopatra white Cleopatra hahahahaha and the fake Nordic Octavian! haha
An other stupid thing about this movie: Octavian=Nordic LOOOOOOOOOOLLL with Gree, Blue-Green eyes.... ahahahahha what a STUPID FAKE MOVIEEEEEEE, the Romans never looked like that! since they were MIXED between Europeans and North Africans (E) and some Middle Eastern people (J2). LOL What a stupid FAKE Octavian here. CLeopatra with Leonor Varela is NOT a Movie but a REALITY,History itself it is 100% Perfect everyone SUITS to be everyone.
@Standuble She has EGYPTIAN mother! and for 2 3 generations they had been born in EGYPT in this hot desert land, what do you expect her look? this white? We have Kurds who have been born in the cold climate of Europe and West, they look so white and more whiter than their own parents, like my cousins.=this= only 1 generation! remember Cleopatra=2 3 generations after eachother in EGYPT.
@Standuble Leonor Varela is the REAL Cleopatra! she is a mix between Indo-Algerio(North African)-and Spanish blood. She is from Latin America! Real Cleopatra is more closer to her than this TRASH.
@tommy9922 The REAL CLEOPATRA has MIXED Ancestorssssssss! Father Greek,Mother no.... She was MIXED and was born in the hot DESERTS of EGYPT! She looked much darker than regular Greeks. What do you expect from her to look? She was the only girl in the familj who could speak Egyptian (modern Coptic not Fucking Semitic Arabic) very very welll like mother tongue. She was *PROUD of being Egyptian too not Greek and she did everything for Egypt. Im tired of this sick discussion go read my old comments.
@xOxKurdParstxOx: Utter horseshit. There isn't any evidence that Cleopatra was anything but 100% Greek. There is a slight possibility that one of her undocumented grandparents might have been a non-Greek, but this would make her, at most, 25% non-Greek and even this is only a possibility.
@tommy9922 Even If she was 1000000% GREEK, she would NEVER look like an average Greek, SHE WAS BORN IN THE DESERTS OF EGYPT (AFRICA) and was PROUD of being Egyptian and COULD speak the Pharao language, Im tired of this. SHUT UP. I have cousins who are born in Western cold countries and they dont look like Kurds from inside Kurdistan (skin and eye color) they are much whiter than their own parents and one happened to get Grey eyes.
I loved how this series portrayed Cleopatra, because I think it is the most realistic interpretation of her yet. Hollywood usually has this image of her as a drop-dead goddess who used sexuality to get her way, but all the portraits that have survived show her as a rather plain looking woman, and it was probably her intelligence and charm that really won Ceaser and Antony over. I especially liked that they portrayed her as closer to her actual age during these events.
I wish it would show how Cleopatra fled down the hallways shrieking in terror after Octavian left, seeing through his charming demeanor and veiled threats behind promises...I admire Octavian.He is one of the most clever, charming, strategic, theatrical fox in History.
@xiliel When I try to picture how he must have been, I don't quite see him being the viper that the series portrayed, but he was definitely cold blooded. I actually imagine him having a very forceful personality and never taking no for an answer. He was cunning as could be, but I think he was not so subtle as they portray here: you either did what he said or you were worthless to him, no farcical conversations and false promises.
nobodys right or wrong as there is still a huge debate in the archological community as too what the race of the 'ancient' egyptians actually was, sum theories suggest nubian or african, sum suggest arabic or middle eastern...does it really matter? anyways a great series, shame it came to an end
Dear Cleopatra the guy you are talking to fucked his sister, likes to get beat people for sexual pleasure and has just spent the last year kicking your consort's ass. Your usually charms aren't going to work.
@Crazydog7 - Not as if Cleopatra came from a purer bloodline, right? In all fairness, her family was pretty fucked up, too ~ just as much incest and sexually twisted.
Personally, I don't think the actress suits the role of Cleopatra at all..she doesn't have the charisma that I imagine Cleopatra had..none of the sensual aura..
Afro-centrists would claim Issac Newton were Black if they could. Cleopatra was of mixed ancestry, by mixed I mean Ptolomeic Greek and a little Iranian blood (Persian). What does her living in Egypt and the country's "heat" have to do with her ethnicity? She was a queen, she probably never went out into the sun as was customary of high officials, not that being "tanned" makes you Black (rofl). The sad thing is there ARE contemporary busts of Cleopatra, yeah, very Black, hahaha.
some historians are saying that she was short and fat...with big nose, large breasts ....but also with a voice of a bird, strong charisma and noble manors!
@thedawidshow Well said! Probably because they are many descriptions of his physical appearance and many many busts and statues. As for Cleo I hate that every comment is about her skin colour and not about her intelligence (she spoke 9 languages and was well versed in maths and other subjects).
This is a great scene. The subtle and tense verbal sparring is remarkable. Simon Woods flat and pleasant delivery tells Cleopatra everything. She and her children are screwed.
@1gortklaatu You hit it on the head. By being subtle you can see what is really said and how it really feels. This was a great bit of acting, writing and direction.
@1gortklaatu The history of that meeting states that Octavian looked her strait in the eye the whole meeting and never even blinked once. Yes I think right at that moment she knew she was doomed.
A pity this clip did not include the scene immediately following, where Cleopatra is shown in private, distraught and breathless and crying, for she has looked into the eyes of the monster and must now live with it...
Simon Woods does do a good job as Octavian. However, I still prefer the younger Octavian to him. He was very intelligent and somewhat callous but not nearly to the extent that we see here. It seems to me the older Octavian is a sociopath. He really doesn't display any compassion for others whatsoever in season 2. I'm not saying that Augustus wasn't this way in reality; none of us can know what his demeanor was. I just feel the younger Octavian was more enjoyable to watch.
@Cole19871 Hmmm...I would'nt say that Augustus was a sociopath...he held great affection for his friends and family...and he really did try to be friends with Antonious(Antony)...he was just ruthless...but in that time what choice did one have have within this context ? He tried his best throughout the series(with the exception of Lysander) to be a reasonable person..but at the end of the day...savagery often prevailed.
I'm pretty sure they intended to display the older Octavian as a sociopath; and truthfully speaking, all immensely successful people are sociopathic to a certain degree.
@Abhi01pyaar He was going to bring her to Rome as a conquered queen, with her children in shackles, and her other son, Cesarion, who is apparently the son of Cesar, causing a threat to his rise to power as the ruler due to the fact that two sons to the throne would not work.
Everyone complains about this actor replacing Max, but I personally thought he was great. It was said that Octavian lacked emotion and had difficulty expressing himself and this guy conveys it brilliantly. While his face remains still, his eyes are cold and calculating and his voice, while flat, still manages to infer threat and shrewdness.
@Sambucca I like Simon Woods in this. It is the way the character is written. If you see Woods in Pride and Prejudice you will see him play a character totally the opposite to Octavian.
@LaSerpentaCanta I don't think so. He would be Romes first Emperor and rule for another 30 years or so under the name Augustus. No doubt he was ruthless but what ruler wasn't back then. Historians say that when they met he just looked her right in the eye and didn't even blink. She knew she was finished at that point, she had planed to work him like she had Cesar, and Antony. But after meeting him face to face she knew she wasn't going to get anywhere with him.
@MegaWolfgang Well none of those facts mean that he couldn't have been a psychopath/totally evil person, it's weird that he has always been portrayed or talked about like that.
@LaSerpentaCanta Yep but remember most of the movies and stories about Cleopatra tend to be from her point of view. Rome for the first time didn't seem to tell the story from one side or the other in a favored light. History says Augustus the first emperor was the finest, and the wisest. He certainly was no raving lunatic like Caligula or Nero who came after him. And he ruled to a very old age. Some say murdered by his wife so her son Tiberius would be crowned. But who knows?
@MegaWolfgang Actually the stories we have of Cleopatra are not from her point of view but from a Roman point of view, they viewed her as a wicked lady, a temptress, someone who ruined their finest men and was an enemy to Rome, none of it is true of course but it's the same view we have in the modern times, and it comes from the way the romans told her story.
@LaSerpentaCanta "none of it is true of course". Why should NONE of it be true? We all know that history is written by the victors, but your blatant dismissal of every Roman account of Cleopatra, is a judgement just as subjective as the Roman one you dismiss. Impaled on your own sword, I would say.
@Sambucca I had issues with it because the older actor doesn't look like an older version of the kid would look like. But older Octavian actor is good in his own right and seems to convey cunning and genius.
I read the comments and I wonder what it is that is being taught in school. If I could be bothered, which I'm not, I'd give all of you a history lesson. As it is, I have enough on my plate teaching a bunch of uninterested co-ed's the real history of classical world. The only advice I can offer to such a bunch of slack-jawed Jethro's is to pick up a book and stop relying on television shows like Rome (very enjoyable bit of fiction by the way) to learn about history.
I read the comments and I wonder what it is that is being taught in school. If I could be bothered, which I'm not, I'd give all of you a history lesson. As it is, I have enough on my plate teaching a bunch of uninterested co-ed's the real history of classical world. The only advice I can offer to such a bunch of slack-jawed Jethro's is to pick up a book and stop relying on television shows like Rome (very enjoyable bit of fiction by the way) to learn about history.
Roman closely followed by Egyptian, then greek are my favourite cultures of ancient history, and so this scene (greek queen, egyptian stylised objects and roman millitary) is AMAZING in my mind :D
Cleopatra was a decendent of the greek pharaos who had ruled egypt since the time of Alexander (though she was NOT a decendent of Alexander himself). According to egyptian tradition, the pharao whould marry his own sister to keep the royal blood pure - something the greek rulers adopted. Thus, Cleopatra was 100 % greek.
Octavian aka Augustus is Romes greatest historical figure in my opinion. He avenged Caesars death by beating Brutus and his allies. Then defeated Mark Antony and Cleopatra and ushered in the Pax Romana!!!
@Rampageg22 The trouble with making dictators is that even if they're morally good and just, there's no way of guaranteing that their successors will be as well. Augustus may have been a truly great man, but in the long run it would have been better to preserve the Republic. Rome suffered from such a large amount of maniacal and oppressive tyrants, throughout its history.
@JTMarlin8 nope octavian wouldnt even touch her infact rome called her 'ceasar's whore *julius ceasar of course* and if she did use sexual advances octavian shot them down on the spot
@JTMarlin8 By the time Octavian met Cleopatra she was older than depicted in this series. She'd had children and well...she was older than Octavian. The story goes she tried her charms on him but Octavian just wasn't interested.
@surani14 This is from the "Rome" TV series season 1. This is one of the best TV shows I've seen about the Roman empire days and I highly recommend it if you can handle graphic sex and language. But the story, cinementography and actors are what really stand out.
It doesn't matter if Cleopatra was a whiter shade of pale or dark olive, etc. People forget that Cleopatra was a highly educated woman who excelled at math and politics. In addition to that she may not have been beautiful but was confident and therefore sexy. However this clip portrays Cleopatra as young and by the time she met Octavian she wasn't that young anymore and had had pregnancies, etc. A young ambitious Octavian would have seen her as an "older" woman.
@mrsotter19 She reportedly did try to seduce him (according to Plutarch, I think), but that could just be ancient historians playing along with the "eastern sorceress" trope.
@jbahadur10 Cleopatra was older and all that (pregnancies etc). Octavian was far too ambitious and clear-headed to pay heed to Cleo. Maybe she wasn't trying to seduce him but only flirtatious and trying to get along with him. Too bad. It didn't work either.
God I love Octavian's acting through this. All the while smiling but the eyes are screaming: "I can, would love to, and am going to, fucking destroy you."
@Yeahraftin Yes, Simon Woods simply nails him. I just started watching "I, Claudius," and Brian Blessed is no comparison-- portraying the austere and calculating Augustus as a chubby, straw-hat toting windbag? Absolutely absurd casting choice.
@mareble412 Cleopatra was not of mixed race. She was Greek/Macedonian of the Ptolemic Dynasty. The Ptolemies ruled Egypt from the city of Alexandria after Alexander The Great's death, and they practiced the Egyptian custom of marrying within their own famlies. Cleopatra's first husband before Julius Caesar was her own brother.
Dr Ashton, of Cambridge University, said the images, to be broadcast as part of a Five documentary on Cleopatra, reflect the monarch's Greek heritage as well as her Egyptian upbringing. 'She probably wasn't just completely European. You've got to remember that her family had actually lived in Egypt for 300 years by the time she came to power.'Realism: The result is a strikingly beautiful young woman of mixed ethnicity
@mareble412 "Probably wasn't completely European" is a nice guess, but the only evidence historians have on Cleopatra is that she was of the Ptolemaic dynasty who were Greek-Macedonian. There have been famlies who have lived in the American territories for over 200 years who never blended with the Native American population, so that's not always a given. If Cleopatra had been of mixed ancestry like her younger half-sister Arsinoe, she probably never would have sat on the Ptolemaic throne.
All Ptolemeys married their sister among others. All females were called Kleopatra (Fatherland-glory). K XIII is thought to have had an Armenian mother so was out of the running as not 100% Ptolemaic - but in exile, the native Egyptians accepted her as Pharoah, as they had not her predecessors. She was God, so could not lower herself to have children by a mortal. Whoever hjeld the Roman and Mediterranean upper hand, Rome called God, so was only fit to impregnate her. Egypt followed female line
@romanpr1nce Actually the Pharoes were EGYPTIAN. Having been there myself I assure you that they were not caucasion. A few were indeed more "African" looking but none were full blown "European" looking; No more so than the average modern Egyptian looking like a European. They look Arab-ish. Also, even though they married within the family they also had concubines from all over the region.
@DaggerSecurity they were indeed egyptian, but not modern egyptians. they were their own distinctive caucasoid race, not the asian arabs you see in egypt today.
@9862972 I doubt the ruler of the wealthiest nation of that time - and became the ruler through strategy and execution would be childish. She was probably more like Margret Thatcher than Liz Taylor.
@9862972 not exactly, Cleopatra a great charisma, intelligence, boldness and was cunning too. Since she was 39 when she died she wouldn't be childish.
. . . except Cleopatra wasn't a woman of colour. As has been said, she was Ptolemaic Greek, and the Ptolemies upheld the Egyptian tradition of marrying within their own bloodline. Lyndsey Marshal was a perfectly adequate choice.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
@LIawIiet Woman of coulr bullshit you imbeilce she had a color its called WHITE stupid and shitting out of your mouth that reatrded "person of colo" racist crap by the "blacks" about "white" not being a color shows a narcistic and dishones tmoronic and pc sid eof you that best left shut away in a septic tank. People like you are what make and allow th eeidiots of the world
@LIawIiet I love the amatuer American take on 'race". Yes she was a descendent of the Ptolemy Macedonian line but the uneartched bones of her sister in Ephesus show via a Bone study and dna test that she was of very mixed ancestry including "native" Egyptian as well.
@edthewise It is funny - they use paintings of light skinned royals to assume they were white when they were simply shielded from the sun and thus had a pale olive or brown skin tone. You can tell they are not white by looking at the sculptures of the times - they are not black either ( except during one era where southern tribes took control of Egypt.
@LIawIiet I am not sure if you heard - they found Cleopatra's sister. She appears to have a mixed bloodline. Images of Cleopatra of the time showed flared nostrils and down-turned lips. It seems the artist focused on the things that made her different, exaggerated them, and thus created a rather ugly image. The truth - based upon her sisters skull show a lovely mixed race woman.
@LIawIiet based upon her coin her features match her sister's so they had similar backgrounds. The mixing of the Greek bloodline probably happened early on to win favor in the region. After creating these alliances they stopped marrying outside the bloodline. So even with a different parent - both women would have had a similar mixed background. They may have even had pale skin and blonde hair - but they still had features from other races.
The coin features have been worn away over the millenia, so it doesn't quite depict an accurate representation.
Look up "bust of Cleopatra VII" to get a more accurate look of her.
Besides, how do you know the Ptolemies even married outside the bloodline? When Alexander the Great conquered the region, people thought of him as a God along with his top men. I think that would have won them over from the start.
@bjnboy Just repeating what historical anthropologist have been debating. Unless they find her bones we will not know her race - but the most recent evidence indicates she was multiracial. They looked at her sister, the coin and the bust to come up with this theory. Perhaps Alexander's genral was decendant from someone who earned the right to be considered Greek or someone married a royal from a different race to create an alliance. And you can be white with blonde hair AND be multi-racial.
Except people have pointed out that skulls are not good indicators of race. And yes, she could have been white skinned with light hair and still be multiracial, but don't you think that maybe the Romans, who were a very xenophobic bunch, would have written that down. Plutarch said she ooked like nothing special and that she could pass for a Roman.
There is also no evidence Ptolemy married a non-Greek.
@oxjr Hopefully Cleopatra's remains will be found one day and through DNA testing it will be concluded if the two are related and that Cleopatra was half-Egyptian.
@LIawIiet we are not sure who her mother was...she may have been a macedonian greek, or she may have been a native egyptian. If she was the latter, then Cleo should not be white.
native egyptians were not white. they were basically mixed africans.
If she were mixed with negroid features, wouldn't have Plutarch and those who wrote accounts of her mentioned it?
Plutarch indicates that "her beauty, as we are told, was in itself not altogether incomparable, nor such as to strike those who saw her."
It is an undeniable historical fact that the Romans were highly xenophobic people, even against whites. Wouldn't something such as Cleo's skin colour stood out in Plutarch's mind?
The vast majority of Romans were white people like how Octavian is portrayed here. What I am referring to is to the "class" of whites that the Romans did not like. They despised the Germanic tribes and the Brits. The white Romans also had white slaves.
When Cleopatra was visiting Rome for the first time to see Caesar, the Roman people were expecting to see a savage, but they got the complete opposite.
@bjnboy The romans were xenophobic, that much is absolutely true, but they were not RACISTS.
Color would not have been a big deal to them. They knew people in africa were black and it didn't bother them one bit.
If she was mixed, she probably wouldn't have been much darker than the average roman Plebian (the lower classes worked outside a lot, so they got more tanned) or the average Libyan.
Her skin color would have been irrelevant to her beauty in plutarch's mind.
True, but in Egypt though, there were different colour classifications. Even the real Egyptain nobility and royalty did not mix with the lower darker classes and did not go out int he sun too much because tans were not fashionable to them.
But back to Rome, while colour may not have mattered to them so much, they did have certain standards and ideals of beauty, also they were noted for noting the physical characteristics of those they encountered.
@bjnboy i don't know where you are getting this from, many egyptian pharaohs took nubian wives and i have not read anything about egyptians being against tans.
@bjnboy and although romans did have certain standards of beauty, they did understand that there were some people who were outside those standards that did have beauty.
the roman poet Martial spoke about a black woman's beauty in one of his epigrams.
@bjnboy like i said she would not have looked that much different that they would have had to mention it. She was not a super dark-skinned nubian type.
Perhaps, but I tend to go based on what I see on the coins bearing her image and her bust, they show someone with all Caucasian features, but she could have been very fair-skinned like how I am.
I also have a bit of trouble just getting around the Ptolemies rigid practice of intermarriage with their sisters and brothers.
@bjnboy well, Cleo may have been the result of someone BREAKING that practice, Ptolemy messing around with one of his egyptian servants...so of course she'd be listed as the proper queen's daughter and shown as a greek woman on the coins...they'd do their best to cover up his mistake.
Just like how Septimius Severus is shown as a white man but being a Berber, there is no way he looked as european as his statue.
@LIawIiet Octavian is the great-nephew of Gaius Julius Caesar's and principal heir. Cleopatra killed herself after imprisonment by Octavian. However I was born in Augusta Vindelicorum later Augsburg hahah
@ozeangruen . . . yes, those things are true. But I do not quite understand the rest of your comment, I am afraid. Is that a city named after Octavian, then?
@LIawIiet it´s named after Octavian later he changed his name in Augustus. The Romans established a military camp naming it Augusta Vindelicorum. The Roman Empire brought the Pax Augusta and decades later Americans established two barracks or Army Basecamps Reese and Sharidan and brought Coca Cola
@LIawIiet - they did a lot more than marry fellow Greeks. They married their own sisters! However, Cleopatra wasn't her Ptolemy XII's sister's daughter - she was born of a concubine. I imagine Cleo's dad probably had some local Egyptian concubines.
That said, there is no evidence that Cleopatra was born of a non-Greek mother. I am sure Caesar or Antony or some contemporary historian would have made some passing comment on it if she wasn't.
@LIawIiet Actually, historians argue as to whether she was blonde and green eyed like her Greek ancestors or had dark skin and eyes, like her Egyptian ancestors. I dunno, somebody build a time machine and get in there. Bring us back answers.
@44excalibur Very cute. Obviously, there were. My point is that it has been said her main ancestor, Ptolemy Soter, was said to be a blonde. Therefore, I am quite sure that just because it was several hundred years ago, her genes didn't magically disappear. Once again, my other point was just that historians are unsure what the hell she actually looked like. Choose whichever you wish to believe.
@Nightwisher87 Actually Cleopatra would be considered attractive today. The artisans who did her coin exaggerated what made her different - her large nostrils and her down-turned lips- this made for a very ugly image. A recent discovery of someone who is probably her sister puts those features into context and she is a very lovely woman who had large eyes. We would find her pretty.
Great scene. you can almost see the a chess board with there words. Every move she try's, Octavian counters and attacks until she has no moves of her own left.
danielholt1984 4 days ago 3
He reigned longest and was the greatest roman emperor because he knew how to play politics and solidery. His reign ushered in a 200 year peace in the west that hasnt been matched since.
Carminevma 1 week ago
You left out the part where she runs into the hall way crying because she knows she can't manipulate Octavian/Augustus... LOL
PeoplesGeneral 1 week ago
Oh holy hell! Not the "Cleo was Egyptian" vs "Cleo was Greek" vs "Cleo was Macedonian" argument again. How about we just say she was Aegyreekonian?
spinmonkey4401 2 weeks ago
i hate octavian in this. he is a sociopath and has some serious issues. he is so awkward and odd that watching him makes one uncomfortable. marc antony was right on when he said in the show that octavian has never fought a battle and has lived off the accomplishments of Julius Caesar
fleurgi 3 weeks ago
@fleurgi But it's true that Octavian rose on Caesar's name to rise to stardom.
73geneva 2 weeks ago
@73geneva I know which is why I am glad Antony told the lunatic how it is.
fleurgi 2 weeks ago
This film should actuelly be BANNED because of TEASING a REALITY changin history and historical characters. What a stupidddddddd un-political discussion between this FAKE None-Cleopatra white Cleopatra hahahahaha and the fake Nordic Octavian! haha
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
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An other stupid thing about this movie: Octavian=Nordic LOOOOOOOOOOLLL with Gree, Blue-Green eyes.... ahahahahha what a STUPID FAKE MOVIEEEEEEE, the Romans never looked like that! since they were MIXED between Europeans and North Africans (E) and some Middle Eastern people (J2). LOL What a stupid FAKE Octavian here. CLeopatra with Leonor Varela is NOT a Movie but a REALITY,History itself it is 100% Perfect everyone SUITS to be everyone.
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
Comment removed
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
What a STUPIDDDDDDDDd None-Cleopatra/Egyptian looking Cleopatra. What a stupid movieeeeeeeeeee. Leonor Varela 4 lifeeeeeeeeeeeeee
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
@xOxKurdParstxOx Cleopatra was Greek so the possibility she looked Greek in real life is a plausible one.
Standuble 1 month ago
@Standuble She has EGYPTIAN mother! and for 2 3 generations they had been born in EGYPT in this hot desert land, what do you expect her look? this white? We have Kurds who have been born in the cold climate of Europe and West, they look so white and more whiter than their own parents, like my cousins.=this= only 1 generation! remember Cleopatra=2 3 generations after eachother in EGYPT.
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
@Standuble Leonor Varela is the REAL Cleopatra! she is a mix between Indo-Algerio(North African)-and Spanish blood. She is from Latin America! Real Cleopatra is more closer to her than this TRASH.
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
@xOxKurdParstxOx: Erm...the real Cleopatra was Greek, not Spanish, not Egyptian, not Moroccan.
tommy9922 1 month ago
@tommy9922 The REAL CLEOPATRA has MIXED Ancestorssssssss! Father Greek,Mother no.... She was MIXED and was born in the hot DESERTS of EGYPT! She looked much darker than regular Greeks. What do you expect from her to look? She was the only girl in the familj who could speak Egyptian (modern Coptic not Fucking Semitic Arabic) very very welll like mother tongue. She was *PROUD of being Egyptian too not Greek and she did everything for Egypt. Im tired of this sick discussion go read my old comments.
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
@xOxKurdParstxOx: Utter horseshit. There isn't any evidence that Cleopatra was anything but 100% Greek. There is a slight possibility that one of her undocumented grandparents might have been a non-Greek, but this would make her, at most, 25% non-Greek and even this is only a possibility.
tommy9922 1 month ago
@tommy9922 Even If she was 1000000% GREEK, she would NEVER look like an average Greek, SHE WAS BORN IN THE DESERTS OF EGYPT (AFRICA) and was PROUD of being Egyptian and COULD speak the Pharao language, Im tired of this. SHUT UP. I have cousins who are born in Western cold countries and they dont look like Kurds from inside Kurdistan (skin and eye color) they are much whiter than their own parents and one happened to get Grey eyes.
xOxKurdParstxOx 1 month ago
I loved how this series portrayed Cleopatra, because I think it is the most realistic interpretation of her yet. Hollywood usually has this image of her as a drop-dead goddess who used sexuality to get her way, but all the portraits that have survived show her as a rather plain looking woman, and it was probably her intelligence and charm that really won Ceaser and Antony over. I especially liked that they portrayed her as closer to her actual age during these events.
dkupke 1 month ago
She spoke Greek. Latin was reserved for the Senate, lawyers, speeches and more formal settings. On the streets of Rome it was mostly Greek
bhcdarkness 1 month ago
did cleopatra actually speak latin?
Trinacria1973 1 month ago
Dear Cleopatra, nothing good comes from faking your death.
kagome966 1 month ago
I wish it would show how Cleopatra fled down the hallways shrieking in terror after Octavian left, seeing through his charming demeanor and veiled threats behind promises...I admire Octavian.He is one of the most clever, charming, strategic, theatrical fox in History.
xiliel 2 months ago
@xiliel When I try to picture how he must have been, I don't quite see him being the viper that the series portrayed, but he was definitely cold blooded. I actually imagine him having a very forceful personality and never taking no for an answer. He was cunning as could be, but I think he was not so subtle as they portray here: you either did what he said or you were worthless to him, no farcical conversations and false promises.
dkupke 1 month ago
Octavian clearly show who still command
punk601 2 months ago
This is very good. Shakespeare does this confrontation to perfection.
tangoseven70 2 months ago
what act and scene is this part?
ShandeeMonstar 2 months ago
Cleopatra seems awfully young for a woman who had 4 or 5 children by this time.
SailingMoominmama 3 months ago
@SailingMoominmama they started much earlier these days
ioannini 3 months ago
nobodys right or wrong as there is still a huge debate in the archological community as too what the race of the 'ancient' egyptians actually was, sum theories suggest nubian or african, sum suggest arabic or middle eastern...does it really matter? anyways a great series, shame it came to an end
bigkid101 3 months ago 2
Dear Cleopatra the guy you are talking to fucked his sister, likes to get beat people for sexual pleasure and has just spent the last year kicking your consort's ass. Your usually charms aren't going to work.
Crazydog7 4 months ago 17
@Crazydog7 - Not as if Cleopatra came from a purer bloodline, right? In all fairness, her family was pretty fucked up, too ~ just as much incest and sexually twisted.
kinnika 1 month ago
@kinnika incest and sexually twisted... ya tell me about it... holy shit.
Anyways... GREEEEEEEEEEECE
DarkPrinceNH5570 1 month ago
wth is up with Cleo's crown? it looks ridiculous and inaccurate! how could they mess that up? actors are good though.
Lil17Lil 4 months ago
Personally, I don't think the actress suits the role of Cleopatra at all..she doesn't have the charisma that I imagine Cleopatra had..none of the sensual aura..
Nicollie1062 4 months ago
Politicians lied to you face just as well in ancient Rome as the do today.
orion1anon 4 months ago
Afro-centrists would claim Issac Newton were Black if they could. Cleopatra was of mixed ancestry, by mixed I mean Ptolomeic Greek and a little Iranian blood (Persian). What does her living in Egypt and the country's "heat" have to do with her ethnicity? She was a queen, she probably never went out into the sun as was customary of high officials, not that being "tanned" makes you Black (rofl). The sad thing is there ARE contemporary busts of Cleopatra, yeah, very Black, hahaha.
123duffbeerrules 4 months ago 2
some historians are saying that she was short and fat...with big nose, large breasts ....but also with a voice of a bird, strong charisma and noble manors!
nbosilj8 4 months ago
@nbosilj8 wasn't fat deffinately.Short perhaps.I think this is probably the most faitfull portrayal of Cleopatra.
sumadinac92 4 months ago
Simon woods was badass here....his eyes almost look lifeless. Great series and great actors.
Bandito8487 5 months ago
Dammit! Stop talking about race and just enjoy the bloody video!!! Why is every Cleopatra video on youtube about race??!!!!
Luvie1980 5 months ago
i dont hear anyone bitching about the colour of octavian.
thedawidshow 5 months ago
@thedawidshow Well said! Probably because they are many descriptions of his physical appearance and many many busts and statues. As for Cleo I hate that every comment is about her skin colour and not about her intelligence (she spoke 9 languages and was well versed in maths and other subjects).
mrsotter19 4 months ago
Simon Woods FTW
NinjXPk 6 months ago
She thought she could seduce Octavian....She thought wrong.
WiseGuy5674 6 months ago
oooohhh crap. she's hot...
tinytimtrack 6 months ago
Well the facts are the facts, I'm just repeating the facts.
LaSerpentaCanta 6 months ago
This is a great scene. The subtle and tense verbal sparring is remarkable. Simon Woods flat and pleasant delivery tells Cleopatra everything. She and her children are screwed.
1gortklaatu 6 months ago 46
@1gortklaatu haha I was just about to say the same thing!
CaitlinSk 4 months ago
@1gortklaatu You hit it on the head. By being subtle you can see what is really said and how it really feels. This was a great bit of acting, writing and direction.
rwarren58 2 months ago
@1gortklaatu The history of that meeting states that Octavian looked her strait in the eye the whole meeting and never even blinked once. Yes I think right at that moment she knew she was doomed.
MegaWolfgang 2 months ago
Is Antony dead
libbyluver5 7 months ago
A pity this clip did not include the scene immediately following, where Cleopatra is shown in private, distraught and breathless and crying, for she has looked into the eyes of the monster and must now live with it...
aussiejed1 8 months ago 2
Paul Bettany has never been better...
erniehead 9 months ago
@erniehead he is not paul bettany!!!..lol.,..this guy is simon woods...
SuperIdelfonso 8 months ago 4
@erniehead Simon Woods, not Paul Bettany
NapoleonCalland 8 months ago
He has no eye brows.
crandaltodd 9 months ago
Simon Woods does do a good job as Octavian. However, I still prefer the younger Octavian to him. He was very intelligent and somewhat callous but not nearly to the extent that we see here. It seems to me the older Octavian is a sociopath. He really doesn't display any compassion for others whatsoever in season 2. I'm not saying that Augustus wasn't this way in reality; none of us can know what his demeanor was. I just feel the younger Octavian was more enjoyable to watch.
Cole19871 9 months ago
@Cole19871 Hmmm...I would'nt say that Augustus was a sociopath...he held great affection for his friends and family...and he really did try to be friends with Antonious(Antony)...he was just ruthless...but in that time what choice did one have have within this context ? He tried his best throughout the series(with the exception of Lysander) to be a reasonable person..but at the end of the day...savagery often prevailed.
popasmuerf 9 months ago
@Cole19871
I'm pretty sure they intended to display the older Octavian as a sociopath; and truthfully speaking, all immensely successful people are sociopathic to a certain degree.
1tephania 5 months ago
I'm lost in her eyes...
ChicagoFan32 9 months ago
season 3 was cancelled. =(
chadkaplan19 10 months ago
Oh god it's Mr. Bingley from P&P 2005, no longer an unmitigated incomprehensive ass as he said. Love his voice.
Back to the scene, was this some kind of trap for Cleopatra? Coz he's being too nice to be believed?
Abhi01pyaar 10 months ago
@Abhi01pyaar He was going to bring her to Rome as a conquered queen, with her children in shackles, and her other son, Cesarion, who is apparently the son of Cesar, causing a threat to his rise to power as the ruler due to the fact that two sons to the throne would not work.
KazestemeANI 10 months ago
@KazestemeANI
Thank you for taking the trouble to answer me =)
Abhi01pyaar 10 months ago
im not crazy about the woman who plays cleo
deegonz06 10 months ago
It's too bad they had to switch actors for Octavian, this guy only knows how to do the "smug confidence" look.
dorkozoid 11 months ago
@dorkozoid
Everyone complains about this actor replacing Max, but I personally thought he was great. It was said that Octavian lacked emotion and had difficulty expressing himself and this guy conveys it brilliantly. While his face remains still, his eyes are cold and calculating and his voice, while flat, still manages to infer threat and shrewdness.
Sambucca 11 months ago 65
@Sambucca I like Simon Woods in this. It is the way the character is written. If you see Woods in Pride and Prejudice you will see him play a character totally the opposite to Octavian.
mrsotter19 10 months ago
Didn't they have to replace Max because the character was older by a few years?
maddingo12 10 months ago
@Sambucca this actor was great! his voice is similar to octavian when he was a kid.
chadkaplan19 10 months ago
@Sambucca Could Octavian had been a psychopath? He certainly has always been protrayed as such.
LaSerpentaCanta 9 months ago
@LaSerpentaCanta I don't think so. He would be Romes first Emperor and rule for another 30 years or so under the name Augustus. No doubt he was ruthless but what ruler wasn't back then. Historians say that when they met he just looked her right in the eye and didn't even blink. She knew she was finished at that point, she had planed to work him like she had Cesar, and Antony. But after meeting him face to face she knew she wasn't going to get anywhere with him.
MegaWolfgang 7 months ago
@MegaWolfgang Well none of those facts mean that he couldn't have been a psychopath/totally evil person, it's weird that he has always been portrayed or talked about like that.
LaSerpentaCanta 7 months ago
@LaSerpentaCanta Yep but remember most of the movies and stories about Cleopatra tend to be from her point of view. Rome for the first time didn't seem to tell the story from one side or the other in a favored light. History says Augustus the first emperor was the finest, and the wisest. He certainly was no raving lunatic like Caligula or Nero who came after him. And he ruled to a very old age. Some say murdered by his wife so her son Tiberius would be crowned. But who knows?
MegaWolfgang 7 months ago
@MegaWolfgang Actually the stories we have of Cleopatra are not from her point of view but from a Roman point of view, they viewed her as a wicked lady, a temptress, someone who ruined their finest men and was an enemy to Rome, none of it is true of course but it's the same view we have in the modern times, and it comes from the way the romans told her story.
LaSerpentaCanta 7 months ago
@LaSerpentaCanta "none of it is true of course". Why should NONE of it be true? We all know that history is written by the victors, but your blatant dismissal of every Roman account of Cleopatra, is a judgement just as subjective as the Roman one you dismiss. Impaled on your own sword, I would say.
CreepyNorwegian 6 months ago
@Sambucca I had issues with it because the older actor doesn't look like an older version of the kid would look like. But older Octavian actor is good in his own right and seems to convey cunning and genius.
S2Cents 7 months ago
He's just like staring like a robot....
IceEyedBlackWolf 11 months ago
I read the comments and I wonder what it is that is being taught in school. If I could be bothered, which I'm not, I'd give all of you a history lesson. As it is, I have enough on my plate teaching a bunch of uninterested co-ed's the real history of classical world. The only advice I can offer to such a bunch of slack-jawed Jethro's is to pick up a book and stop relying on television shows like Rome (very enjoyable bit of fiction by the way) to learn about history.
iseevvv 11 months ago
I read the comments and I wonder what it is that is being taught in school. If I could be bothered, which I'm not, I'd give all of you a history lesson. As it is, I have enough on my plate teaching a bunch of uninterested co-ed's the real history of classical world. The only advice I can offer to such a bunch of slack-jawed Jethro's is to pick up a book and stop relying on television shows like Rome (very enjoyable bit of fiction by the way) to learn about history.
iseevvv 11 months ago
@SlyNicolai I'm afraid that Ceasarion was killed. The rest is just speculations from the writers of "Rome".
mrsotter19 11 months ago
Roman closely followed by Egyptian, then greek are my favourite cultures of ancient history, and so this scene (greek queen, egyptian stylised objects and roman millitary) is AMAZING in my mind :D
TheLolbot3000 11 months ago
@SlyNicolai
Cleopatra was a decendent of the greek pharaos who had ruled egypt since the time of Alexander (though she was NOT a decendent of Alexander himself). According to egyptian tradition, the pharao whould marry his own sister to keep the royal blood pure - something the greek rulers adopted. Thus, Cleopatra was 100 % greek.
Wictorandersson 11 months ago
Octavian aka Augustus is Romes greatest historical figure in my opinion. He avenged Caesars death by beating Brutus and his allies. Then defeated Mark Antony and Cleopatra and ushered in the Pax Romana!!!
Rampageg22 1 year ago
@Rampageg22 The trouble with making dictators is that even if they're morally good and just, there's no way of guaranteing that their successors will be as well. Augustus may have been a truly great man, but in the long run it would have been better to preserve the Republic. Rome suffered from such a large amount of maniacal and oppressive tyrants, throughout its history.
ErikMartin81 11 months ago
My, but he IS charmer, is he not?
sookala 1 year ago
Did Octavian bone Cleopatra?
JTMarlin8 1 year ago
@JTMarlin8 nope octavian wouldnt even touch her infact rome called her 'ceasar's whore *julius ceasar of course* and if she did use sexual advances octavian shot them down on the spot
Tekirai 1 year ago
@JTMarlin8 By the time Octavian met Cleopatra she was older than depicted in this series. She'd had children and well...she was older than Octavian. The story goes she tried her charms on him but Octavian just wasn't interested.
mrsotter19 1 year ago
is that mr. bingly?
Guesswho43110 1 year ago
@Guesswho43110 Yes
mrsotter19 1 year ago
Is that Elaine from Seinfeld?
cavemeister7262 1 year ago
what movie is this scence from?
surani14 1 year ago
@surani14 This is from the "Rome" TV series season 1. This is one of the best TV shows I've seen about the Roman empire days and I highly recommend it if you can handle graphic sex and language. But the story, cinementography and actors are what really stand out.
pucksterz12 1 year ago
oh ty i heard of the show but never bothered to watch it looks like i have a new series to watch.@pucksterz12
surani14 1 year ago
One of Cleopatra's ancestress was a princess form Syria.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
The Romans did worship some Egyptian gods, Isis mainly among them, Cleopatra had a strong impact on Rome.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
i've read Cleopatra's mother's family were followers of the god Ptah and was probably Egyptian. A shame there's not much info. about her.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
I would've liked to have seen her wearing a Pharonic crown instead of that mega big wig.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
It doesn't matter if Cleopatra was a whiter shade of pale or dark olive, etc. People forget that Cleopatra was a highly educated woman who excelled at math and politics. In addition to that she may not have been beautiful but was confident and therefore sexy. However this clip portrays Cleopatra as young and by the time she met Octavian she wasn't that young anymore and had had pregnancies, etc. A young ambitious Octavian would have seen her as an "older" woman.
mrsotter19 1 year ago 2
@mrsotter19 She reportedly did try to seduce him (according to Plutarch, I think), but that could just be ancient historians playing along with the "eastern sorceress" trope.
jbahadur10 10 months ago
@jbahadur10 Cleopatra was older and all that (pregnancies etc). Octavian was far too ambitious and clear-headed to pay heed to Cleo. Maybe she wasn't trying to seduce him but only flirtatious and trying to get along with him. Too bad. It didn't work either.
mrsotter19 10 months ago
God I love Octavian's acting through this. All the while smiling but the eyes are screaming: "I can, would love to, and am going to, fucking destroy you."
Yeahraftin 1 year ago 39
@Yeahraftin The man looked sexy, though.
mrsotter19 1 year ago
@Yeahraftin Yes, Simon Woods simply nails him. I just started watching "I, Claudius," and Brian Blessed is no comparison-- portraying the austere and calculating Augustus as a chubby, straw-hat toting windbag? Absolutely absurd casting choice.
jbahadur10 10 months ago
next time make Cleopatra woman of mixed race--more ethnic. I know Hollywood likes to white-wash their productions
mareble412 1 year ago
@mareble412 Cleopatra was not of mixed race. She was Greek/Macedonian of the Ptolemic Dynasty. The Ptolemies ruled Egypt from the city of Alexandria after Alexander The Great's death, and they practiced the Egyptian custom of marrying within their own famlies. Cleopatra's first husband before Julius Caesar was her own brother.
44excalibur 1 year ago
@44excalibur exactly she was.
Dr Ashton, of Cambridge University, said the images, to be broadcast as part of a Five documentary on Cleopatra, reflect the monarch's Greek heritage as well as her Egyptian upbringing. 'She probably wasn't just completely European. You've got to remember that her family had actually lived in Egypt for 300 years by the time she came to power.'Realism: The result is a strikingly beautiful young woman of mixed ethnicity
mareble412 1 year ago
@mareble412 "Probably wasn't completely European" is a nice guess, but the only evidence historians have on Cleopatra is that she was of the Ptolemaic dynasty who were Greek-Macedonian. There have been famlies who have lived in the American territories for over 200 years who never blended with the Native American population, so that's not always a given. If Cleopatra had been of mixed ancestry like her younger half-sister Arsinoe, she probably never would have sat on the Ptolemaic throne.
44excalibur 11 months ago
You can just hear the murder on the mind of Octavian dripping off the words he speaks...
I miss this series.
TheObsidianhunter 1 year ago
All Ptolemeys married their sister among others. All females were called Kleopatra (Fatherland-glory). K XIII is thought to have had an Armenian mother so was out of the running as not 100% Ptolemaic - but in exile, the native Egyptians accepted her as Pharoah, as they had not her predecessors. She was God, so could not lower herself to have children by a mortal. Whoever hjeld the Roman and Mediterranean upper hand, Rome called God, so was only fit to impregnate her. Egypt followed female line
Saiaton 1 year ago
My ship is large and comfidable.... bow chicka wow wow xD
FaakedLillebror 1 year ago
epic scene, she thought she could seduce him like she did with caesar and anthony
mysticdark1 1 year ago
@mysticdark1 yeah..she can't do that 'cause octavian is smart.
AeginaLovesYou 1 year ago
@mysticdark1 Octavian and Cleopatra would've been an interesting couple, yet they were too much alike and different so it wouldn't have worked out.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
one of the greatest show ever!
ThisLittleBlackBook 1 year ago 2
even so, majority of pharoes even before greek invasion were caucasian. but that makes afro-centrists angry.
romanpr1nce 1 year ago
@romanpr1nce Actually the Pharoes were EGYPTIAN. Having been there myself I assure you that they were not caucasion. A few were indeed more "African" looking but none were full blown "European" looking; No more so than the average modern Egyptian looking like a European. They look Arab-ish. Also, even though they married within the family they also had concubines from all over the region.
DaggerSecurity 1 year ago
@DaggerSecurity they were indeed egyptian, but not modern egyptians. they were their own distinctive caucasoid race, not the asian arabs you see in egypt today.
romanpr1nce 1 year ago
Show kicked ass
Pnutt5100 1 year ago
Wow. Pages and pages of comments talking about her race, when it really doesn't matter one iota.
infernocanuck 1 year ago
why is this cleopatra so calm? wasnt the real one fiesty, and controlling and alil childish?
9862972 1 year ago
@9862972 ..she is trying to seduce Octavian as she had with Caesar and Antony..she underestimated his coldness..thats why she offs' herself.
WiseGuy5674 1 year ago
@WiseGuy5674 its weird how HE didn't seduce her....i mean look at those eyes.....they look like they are made of glass.....
liokiko1992 1 year ago
@9862972 she more than met her match in octavian. he wasn't thinking with his penis like antony & caesar.
haroof 1 year ago
@9862972 I doubt the ruler of the wealthiest nation of that time - and became the ruler through strategy and execution would be childish. She was probably more like Margret Thatcher than Liz Taylor.
oxjr 1 year ago
@9862972 not exactly, Cleopatra a great charisma, intelligence, boldness and was cunning too. Since she was 39 when she died she wouldn't be childish.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
dnt they do each other or sumthin? ;P
PapayaFreakX3 1 year ago
Octavian is so cold and calculating, you'd think he replaced his blood with ice.
Rodriguez87 1 year ago 7
This comment has received too many negative votes show
im sorry,but im tired of seeing white,ppl play as ppl of color...
maddmystic10 1 year ago
. . . except Cleopatra wasn't a woman of colour. As has been said, she was Ptolemaic Greek, and the Ptolemies upheld the Egyptian tradition of marrying within their own bloodline. Lyndsey Marshal was a perfectly adequate choice.
LIawIiet 1 year ago 45
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@LIawIiet Woman of coulr bullshit you imbeilce she had a color its called WHITE stupid and shitting out of your mouth that reatrded "person of colo" racist crap by the "blacks" about "white" not being a color shows a narcistic and dishones tmoronic and pc sid eof you that best left shut away in a septic tank. People like you are what make and allow th eeidiots of the world
deltapunk21 1 year ago
@LIawIiet I love the amatuer American take on 'race". Yes she was a descendent of the Ptolemy Macedonian line but the uneartched bones of her sister in Ephesus show via a Bone study and dna test that she was of very mixed ancestry including "native" Egyptian as well.
edthewise 1 year ago
@edthewise It is funny - they use paintings of light skinned royals to assume they were white when they were simply shielded from the sun and thus had a pale olive or brown skin tone. You can tell they are not white by looking at the sculptures of the times - they are not black either ( except during one era where southern tribes took control of Egypt.
oxjr 1 year ago
@LIawIiet look up Arsinoe Cleopatras sister
edthewise 1 year ago
Comment removed
SexyProfess 1 year ago
@LIawIiet I am not sure if you heard - they found Cleopatra's sister. She appears to have a mixed bloodline. Images of Cleopatra of the time showed flared nostrils and down-turned lips. It seems the artist focused on the things that made her different, exaggerated them, and thus created a rather ugly image. The truth - based upon her sisters skull show a lovely mixed race woman.
oxjr 1 year ago
@oxjr . . . I do not think they are full sisters. So, a difference in parentage would account for that.
LIawIiet 1 year ago
@LIawIiet based upon her coin her features match her sister's so they had similar backgrounds. The mixing of the Greek bloodline probably happened early on to win favor in the region. After creating these alliances they stopped marrying outside the bloodline. So even with a different parent - both women would have had a similar mixed background. They may have even had pale skin and blonde hair - but they still had features from other races.
oxjr 1 year ago
@oxjr
The coin features have been worn away over the millenia, so it doesn't quite depict an accurate representation.
Look up "bust of Cleopatra VII" to get a more accurate look of her.
Besides, how do you know the Ptolemies even married outside the bloodline? When Alexander the Great conquered the region, people thought of him as a God along with his top men. I think that would have won them over from the start.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy Just repeating what historical anthropologist have been debating. Unless they find her bones we will not know her race - but the most recent evidence indicates she was multiracial. They looked at her sister, the coin and the bust to come up with this theory. Perhaps Alexander's genral was decendant from someone who earned the right to be considered Greek or someone married a royal from a different race to create an alliance. And you can be white with blonde hair AND be multi-racial.
oxjr 1 year ago
@oxjr
Except people have pointed out that skulls are not good indicators of race. And yes, she could have been white skinned with light hair and still be multiracial, but don't you think that maybe the Romans, who were a very xenophobic bunch, would have written that down. Plutarch said she ooked like nothing special and that she could pass for a Roman.
There is also no evidence Ptolemy married a non-Greek.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@oxjr
Even in ancient Egyptian society, there were divisions between colours/races.
I'm nt saying Cleo wasn't mixed, but it is highly unlikely givent he habits of the Ptolomeic Dynasty and Ancient Egyptian society.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@oxjr Hopefully Cleopatra's remains will be found one day and through DNA testing it will be concluded if the two are related and that Cleopatra was half-Egyptian.
HistoryLover1550 1 year ago
@LIawIiet we are not sure who her mother was...she may have been a macedonian greek, or she may have been a native egyptian. If she was the latter, then Cleo should not be white.
native egyptians were not white. they were basically mixed africans.
illman8876 1 year ago
@illman8876
If she were mixed with negroid features, wouldn't have Plutarch and those who wrote accounts of her mentioned it?
Plutarch indicates that "her beauty, as we are told, was in itself not altogether incomparable, nor such as to strike those who saw her."
It is an undeniable historical fact that the Romans were highly xenophobic people, even against whites. Wouldn't something such as Cleo's skin colour stood out in Plutarch's mind?
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy " the Romans were highly xenophobic people, even against whites." are you trying to say that the romans werent white?
ninja909 1 year ago
@ninja909
The vast majority of Romans were white people like how Octavian is portrayed here. What I am referring to is to the "class" of whites that the Romans did not like. They despised the Germanic tribes and the Brits. The white Romans also had white slaves.
When Cleopatra was visiting Rome for the first time to see Caesar, the Roman people were expecting to see a savage, but they got the complete opposite.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy thanks for the info. yeah i can see why they didnt like the barbarian tribes haha. and cleopatra is beutifull in this =)
ninja909 1 year ago
@bjnboy The romans were xenophobic, that much is absolutely true, but they were not RACISTS.
Color would not have been a big deal to them. They knew people in africa were black and it didn't bother them one bit.
If she was mixed, she probably wouldn't have been much darker than the average roman Plebian (the lower classes worked outside a lot, so they got more tanned) or the average Libyan.
Her skin color would have been irrelevant to her beauty in plutarch's mind.
illman8876 1 year ago
@illman8876
True, but in Egypt though, there were different colour classifications. Even the real Egyptain nobility and royalty did not mix with the lower darker classes and did not go out int he sun too much because tans were not fashionable to them.
But back to Rome, while colour may not have mattered to them so much, they did have certain standards and ideals of beauty, also they were noted for noting the physical characteristics of those they encountered.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy i don't know where you are getting this from, many egyptian pharaohs took nubian wives and i have not read anything about egyptians being against tans.
illman8876 1 year ago
@illman8876
Someone on a forums a while back posted that, that the Nubians would have served as guards, the Ethiopians as servants and scribes, etc.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy and although romans did have certain standards of beauty, they did understand that there were some people who were outside those standards that did have beauty.
the roman poet Martial spoke about a black woman's beauty in one of his epigrams.
illman8876 1 year ago
@illman8876
Really now? I should look him up.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@illman8876
If Cleo did not look like them, they would have mentioned it.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy like i said she would not have looked that much different that they would have had to mention it. She was not a super dark-skinned nubian type.
illman8876 1 year ago
@illman8876
Perhaps, but I tend to go based on what I see on the coins bearing her image and her bust, they show someone with all Caucasian features, but she could have been very fair-skinned like how I am.
I also have a bit of trouble just getting around the Ptolemies rigid practice of intermarriage with their sisters and brothers.
bjnboy 1 year ago
@bjnboy well, Cleo may have been the result of someone BREAKING that practice, Ptolemy messing around with one of his egyptian servants...so of course she'd be listed as the proper queen's daughter and shown as a greek woman on the coins...they'd do their best to cover up his mistake.
Just like how Septimius Severus is shown as a white man but being a Berber, there is no way he looked as european as his statue.
illman8876 1 year ago
@LIawIiet Octavian is the great-nephew of Gaius Julius Caesar's and principal heir. Cleopatra killed herself after imprisonment by Octavian. However I was born in Augusta Vindelicorum later Augsburg hahah
ozeangruen 1 year ago
@ozeangruen . . . yes, those things are true. But I do not quite understand the rest of your comment, I am afraid. Is that a city named after Octavian, then?
LIawIiet 1 year ago
@LIawIiet oh yes
ozeangruen 1 year ago
@LIawIiet it´s named after Octavian later he changed his name in Augustus. The Romans established a military camp naming it Augusta Vindelicorum. The Roman Empire brought the Pax Augusta and decades later Americans established two barracks or Army Basecamps Reese and Sharidan and brought Coca Cola
ozeangruen 1 year ago
@LIawIiet - they did a lot more than marry fellow Greeks. They married their own sisters! However, Cleopatra wasn't her Ptolemy XII's sister's daughter - she was born of a concubine. I imagine Cleo's dad probably had some local Egyptian concubines.
That said, there is no evidence that Cleopatra was born of a non-Greek mother. I am sure Caesar or Antony or some contemporary historian would have made some passing comment on it if she wasn't.
midbsaj 1 year ago
@LIawIiet There actually is speculation that Cleopatra's mother was not of Ptolemaic blood, berhaps a nurse or slave of some sort.
poetpickles 1 year ago
@LIawIiet Actually, historians argue as to whether she was blonde and green eyed like her Greek ancestors or had dark skin and eyes, like her Egyptian ancestors. I dunno, somebody build a time machine and get in there. Bring us back answers.
riniel17 11 months ago
@riniel17 What, like there were no ancient Greeks with dark hair and brown eyes? Where did you get that idea?
44excalibur 11 months ago
@44excalibur Very cute. Obviously, there were. My point is that it has been said her main ancestor, Ptolemy Soter, was said to be a blonde. Therefore, I am quite sure that just because it was several hundred years ago, her genes didn't magically disappear. Once again, my other point was just that historians are unsure what the hell she actually looked like. Choose whichever you wish to believe.
riniel17 11 months ago
Octavius pwns^^
And this cleopatra is a bit ugly with her very short hair (without her fakeher of course).
Arminius1871 1 year ago
@Arminius1871 the real cleopatra wasn't exactly a beauty queen if you look at the evidence.
Nightwisher87 1 year ago
@Nightwisher87 Actually Cleopatra would be considered attractive today. The artisans who did her coin exaggerated what made her different - her large nostrils and her down-turned lips- this made for a very ugly image. A recent discovery of someone who is probably her sister puts those features into context and she is a very lovely woman who had large eyes. We would find her pretty.
oxjr 1 year ago
to me cleopatra sounds like a glorifyied SLUT!
tigersoup 1 year ago
I want to do bad things to him.
Bunzypoo 1 year ago