During the 1986 Rally Portugal Henri Toivonen drove his Delta S4 at the Estoril track, and recorded a lap time which would have qualified him in sixth position at that year's Formula One Portuguese Grand Prix.
One of the most technologically advanced rally cars ever built, before Group B was cancelled. Even Ferrari was planning on competing against this monster with the 288 GTO. Amongst other things, it used both turbocharging and supercharging.
@VicTheMazdaFan1993 ِAbarth 1759 cc 4 cylinder roots supercharger and kkk turbo charger for the original GRP B rally version,some hillclimb cars are using 2000 cc engines.
id consider the crashes where people walk out of to be testament that f1 cars are extremly strong and at the pinacle of safety.
are you smoking something? im not the one comparing f1 to gpb.if you hadnt noticed f1 is only raced on tarmac.
the point about power is very valid when you weigh 600kg and can create 2000kg of down force
again...DONT COMPARE F1 TO GPB if you feel the need to compare,compare wrc to gpb...im affraid your beloved gpb will again be shown dust...fact not opinion
A fromula renault 2000 as well as sportsracers and what not which are much slower then any f1 car is beating a very fast and updated Delta S4 at the european hillclimbs,. So to claim that the s4 beat the F1 cars of its time and on an F1 circuit which is very high speed and requires lots of down force is not true.Any way the Delta s4 is my Dream car!
I would like to comment that the f1 cars of today are not as fast as those of the 80's and early 90's simply due to new restrictions that have been added since then. at least that's what I think.
By 1986, a BMW turbocharged engine achieved a flash reading of 5.5 bar pressure, estimated to be over 1,300 bhp (970 kW) in qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix.
The next year power in race trim reached around 1,100 bhp (820 kW), with boost pressure limited to only 4.0 bar.[22]These cars were the most powerful open-wheel circuit racing cars ever.
To be fair this car would never see dirt, its way too low, no sump clearence and has stupid wide tyres, this has been built for one purpose and one terrain only, tarmac.
@hxsoul if it was a 10 second lap then yes, other than that it's like when my mate said his dads car could beat an F1 car - totally uneducated and stupid.
no way an s4 is 4 seconds a lap slower than f1, try 24 seconds if it's lucky
@pettersaethre Umh, it's a former group B Rally car... many sections, if not majority where gravel,sand,snow and other mixed terains other than Tarmac... Wiki is your friend kid, use it.
Hey everybody that loves rally (guessing most of you), I have a little baby blog weloverally blogspot com and I just want at least one follower. RALLY IS MY PASSION! There will be t shirts soon!
I've been reading some coments and let me be straight. Veyron is an awesome car but it is an ugly piece of shit. The Lancia Delta S4 isnt great looking either but its better looking than the Veyron. Ferrari is an epic car manufacturer. Lamborghini and Zonda has the best supercars and since when does Porsche has the best sports cars in the world? the best sports car in the world is the Nissan GT-R. Ferrari is not unriliable, American and English cars are. STFU and enjoy the vid douchefags! Peace
@so2fast4u2 Think hes lost, the Peugeot 205 t16 grp b car had acceleration as as a f1 car the first 100 meters, Think thats what he ment(and thats the 80s f1 can with not half as good tiers or control the f1 cars today have.
not to sure about the lancia s4 buh high end rally/rally cross cars can get to 60 mph before an F1 car could, fact. buhh the F1 car is obvs faster after that :)
@so2fast4u2 when the s4 was being tested at a track years ago there was an F1 team testing at the same time, the track that the s4 was on was roughly the same distance as the track that the F1 team were using, i think the s4 was laping around 4 seconds slower than the F1 car was,,,,,,,,, ON GRAVEL ,,, nuff seid
@so2fast4u2 : In the days this car was conceived, a factory S4 w/ 600hp could nearly keep up with a F1 car on some circuits. Couple this to the fact that the S4 will do 0-60 in 2.5sec everywhere, I know what the reall winner is.
@markandrach : Those aren't my words bitch. A group-B rally driver of the time claimed that they[Group-B cars] were within 3-4 seconds of F1 cars at certain venues (it's on utube search for yourself). And that's given that rally cars weren't even designed for circuit racing. All F1 cars are fragile beasts that are constructed to barely last a single race. You can take a S4 to the moon and back and still race the rally of Portugal.
@markandrach : Your logic contradicts itself. A modern F1 car will also destroy a 1986 F1 turbo. The S4 like most group-b cars were crude, but developed in a short period of time. If WRC is faster today, it's because of 20+ years of development. Group-B only lived a few years, but in that time it gained legendary status. The S4 has twice the power of WRC. It will at the very least out accelerate everything you pit it against. Super short gearing + massive torque = gg!!! You can't deny that.
@markandrach : What an idiotic noob. A delta S4 is faster than a F1 car on any surface other than asphalt. End of. My original comment about circuit racing was limited to certain tracks that didn't have long straights. F1 cars today are a joke. They're so fragile that they demand the circuits be resurfaced, and that already happened over the past few years. Also, your quoted 1400hp F1 monsters accelerate slower than today's 800hp cars. Your point about more power is also invalid.
@so2fast4u2 that`s a matter of opinion.. If a F1 would race with a S4 on an Uphill-Track like in this Video, the F1 had no chance...don`t compares apple with pears ^^
Markandrach is nothing more than a n00b f1 fanboi who can't handle the fact that a street legal race car built specifically for super quick sprints can run with non-street legal endurance race cars built specifically for extended track performance in a race environment that embodies quick sprints.....He knows fuck all and pulls random facts out of his ass...he really needs to do a little bit of research
Just to clarify on 0:36-0:47: The S4 is both Supercharged & Turbocharged to prevent turbo lag especially at low RPM's when there is very little exhaust pressure to spin the Turbos.
A true classic and a technical marvel, you don't see that anywhere anymore ) ^`:
germans have got the engineering, japs have got the technology but they havent got one of the key things the italians have got, and that is passion and that is what made this 1 of the best rally cars ever (my opinin anyway)
@markandrach I'm old enough to be a fairly well established stunt driver and have 2 regional rally championship 1st place finishes under my belt. You on the other hand sound like some fanboi punk teenager.
Lamborghini have to say thank you to germany JUST FOR THE cockpit. Don't think that in Bologna and Modena somebody need germanian people for build cars....
@markandrach Henri Toivonen with his Delta S4 made time to qualify on 6th position in f1 at that time at Estoril race track in Portugal. So... wut did you say about stupidity?
@markandrach WTF are you talking about???? Group B cars ran with the BEST of the F1 cars on F1 tracks, Peak1RA is right, Henri Toivonen lapped estoril fast enough to qualify for 6th place starting position in the following race shortly after his record breaking lap. Not very quick???? 2.1 seconds (ON DIRT!!!!) isn't quick???? find me a street legal car ANYWHERE that's as quick on pavement! F1 cars NEVER weighed less than 800kg (the S4's weight), and the downforce is nearly the same.
@darthjader08 you are showing a total lack of knowledge.96 f1 cars minimum weight was 500kg.s4's are about as un-areodynamic as a brick.the f1 car would be 200mph in places ,a s4 140 utter max.where does the s4 make that much up?certainly not corners.i challenge you to find real proof of any of those 'facts' you state.everyone is wrong.
go and do some reasearch and dont beleive everything on the net
@markandrach Yeah, go do a little research yourself, rather than reading the specs posted in video games, prior to 1990, F1 cars had a minimum weight requirement of 790kg, never less than that. Group B cars were built for quick acceleration and keeping a fast avg. speed, not a constant high speed, wtf does a low drag coefficient have to do with that? F1 cars RARELY ever achieve speeds beyond 170mph for very long on F1 tracks, Group-B cars had a top speed in the 155-164mph range...cont'd...
@markandrach ...cont'd....which were the highest speeds clocked between different group-b car models. Unlike F1 cars, Group-B cars were never designed to maintain high speeds for long, but they were designed to achieve those top speeds faster than anything, and because of that design characteristic (largely due to gear ratios), Group-B cars were not only quicker than F1 cars, but also every bit as fast on twistier tracks, it's because of that characteristic, that he lapped estoril as fast as f1
@markandrach As far as proof....I have mountains of DVDS on my shelf of various Group-B cars, during races (mostly Rally Great Britian, WRC 1984-1988), testing sessions, news broadcasts, etc. including Henri Toivonen's 1:18 lap time on Estoril. Now YOU have evidently only gathered your information from specs in video games, I'm as big a fan of Gran Turismo as anyone (unfortunately, being a gaming addict, I cannot play Racing simulation games, or RPG's...cont'd...
@markandrach ...cont'd....kinda like a former alcoholic cannot have a glass of beer. Bottom line is (in answer to your question) there are two ways in which the S4 gained time on F1 cars on Estoril: 1) because it's such a short track, due to its inherent design characteristics....the S4 gets up to pace, and completes the lap in quick time 2) in the corners, being a less stable but more nimble car, the S4 had the advantage. Having said that (about the track length) the S4 would lose...cont'd...
...cont'd...that advantage after the first lap (when it's no longer from a standing start), and, in a multi lap race, the S4 would certainly get its ass handed to it, but in a single lap race the S4 could easily hang with the F1 cars. Group-B rally cars were sprinters, F1 cars were endurance high speed runners, so for a short lap on an endurance track, the S4 would maintain all its advantages, while the F1 car would lose many advantages. Bonus to the S4: it seats 2, street legal, goes anywhere.
@darthjader08 where is the video of this event?if lancia went to the trouble and expense of setting this up.they WOULD have filmed it.i will say again the f1 cars minimum weight was 500kg with upto 1300/1400hp in qual trim.nigel mansell lapped the 4.3km circuit in 1;20 secs @195km.
you remind me of the moon hoax believers,no proof to back your crazy ideas.
watch some of the hill climb clips where gpb cars race against open wheel cars that have nowhere near the power of f1.
@markandrach Apparently you have an issue with reading comprehension, first of all I said I have the dvd with footage of the mentioned testing session, second, what about "TESTING SESSION" don't you understand????? Automotive tests aren't always about publicity, as fanbois like you so often think, it's part of the process of Homologation, testing is done discreetly, however, now, 23 yrs. after the fact, the footage is available on DVD, all you have to do is go to Amazon and order the dvd.
@markandrach Not only are you wrong on the weight requirement, but it is also ENTIRELY irrelevant to the conversation. the HIGHEST power output EVER recorded from an F1 engine was 1300hp from the Honda powered McLaren, and it was promptly adjusted to produce less power. good luck with your bullshit argument.
speaking of moon hoax believers.....
Yah, and you ever notice how the AWD hill climb cars lay waste to the open wheeled racers (which are running in the realm of 900hp)?
@darthjader08 were not talking about dirt tracks,all tarmac.go on the prescott website,bergrennan website.goodwood fos record was from an f1 car in 1999 at 41 seconds.all the records are from open wheel racers.
there is no point being rational with facts,you beleive a rally can keep up with a 200mph f1 car :-) too much xbox.
go on a motorsport website and ask the question.they will put you right.
ok what is this video of a s4 doing a 1;20 at estoril called?post a link?it doesnt exist!good bye
@markandrach Too much xbox? please, the ONLY racing game that even has Group-B rally cars in it is Gran Turismo, and they got the specs horribly wrong (largely due to the lack of desire to provide official specs for their respective cars). YOU'RE the one pulling bullshit specs off video games, 500kg my ass....
Do you even know the difference between tarmac and pavement? Doubt it. Goodwood is a joke. Motorsport websites contain nothing but fanbois who have minimal knowledge.
@markandrach And that's strange, I'm staring at a dvd (which apparently doesn't exist) right there on my shelf as we speak, APV Reportages Presentes Delta S4 A La Une , yes, a French Video, you can order it off Amazon for 20 euros and in 6-8 weeks it will arrive in your mailbox. Be sure to have PAL dvd playing capability though. Watch through the Rally GB clips, and during the credits, Henri Toivonen's Test lap at Estoril plays, with the time clearly posted on the stop watch.
@darthjader08 oh you are comical,modern wrc cars are much faster than gpb.
you seem to have this romantic view about gpb cars.
yes ive seen them rally,i really like them but i understand that no way on this planet is a car with 900kg and 600hp going to keep up with a 540kg 1200/1300 hp car with amazing downforce and grip.200mph max against 140/150 is also agtainst the s4.
ive seen audi s1's lancia s4's,gpb r5,205 t16.id never seen anything take off like it until i saw the abu dhabi focus.
@markandrach uhhhh.....modern WRC cars run overall stage times about the same as Group B cars did....and there's one very simple reason for that: 20 FUCKING YEARS OF TECHNOLOGICAL IMPROVEMENTS TO THE DRIVETRAINS YOU FUCKING DOLT!!!! Even with all their drivetrain improvements, modern Group-A cars don't accelerate anywhere near as quick (3.8 seconds to 100km/h for most Group-A cars), as opposed to 2.1 seconds for the Group-B cars (both values are on dirt.)
uhhhh....yeah....adjust your values a bit there bud: 800kg, over 800hp (on hill climb boost settings), gearing built for sprinting, compared to a 700kg 900hp RWD F1 car with gearing set up for maintaining high speeds.....doesn't seem so far fetched now does it.....with 170mph max (on estoril) for F1 cars against 163mph for the S4.....with massive downforce for both vehicles (producing approximately the same downforce, similar weight distribution, and an AWD advantage for the S4.
Put the same driver in both the F1 car and the S4, as long as he's competent, he'll get very similar times....as long as he can drive both according to their unique characteristics. In reality however, odds are an average driver would probably be faster in the S4, and quite possibly crash in the F1 car.
The Abu Dhabi Focus isn't even a Group-A Rally car you dolt....are you just pulling random details out of your ass????
@darthjader08 haha,i love your posts of miss-information.i cant even be arsed discussing cars with someone who cant even see that he's posting on s4hillclimb video with 600hp and still thinks they are 800hp.
same downforce as an 86 f1 car????? are you for real????
if the focus was a modern gpN car that was even more embarassing for the old cars then.
i'll leave you to go back to where the x box is a documentary machine
@markandrach yeah...uhhhh...have you been paying attention AT ALL????? This vid isn't even a WRC Rally....so in what conceivable way do you think that it would have WRC spec'd boost settings???? Do you even understand the difference between REGIONAL and INTERNATIONAL rallies?
I didn't say SAME I said APPROXIMATELY the same, the difference being MAYBE 200lb downforce at speed, wow, what a fucking dolt...
I'm not the one playing too many racing games here, you're the one pulling specs outta game
@markandrach furthermore, you're claiming "fact" based on what you perceive to be common knowledge....whereas I'm basing my FACTS on documented video, and empirical evidence. So seriously....JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP DIPSHIT!!! You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, but you carry on with the pompous attitude of a politician, just shut it, you don't know SHIT.
@darthjader08 are you going to the gp later with an s4 and showing all how to race?i suppose you could do better than all those boys.
you really have to be 1 of a handfull of deluded people who really dont understand how bloody quick f1 cars were in 86 compared to what is basically the same shape as car what you would see on the street
a gpC car from the 86 season would be lapping a s4 within a few laps.
i really wish you would just open your eyes to the differance between these cars
I know exactly how much power F1 cars had in 86, I also know how shitty the traction control was, and that they had to go easy on the throttle to keep from losing the rear end, transversely with its AWD control, a skilled driver could more or less go full throttle on a GP track in a Group-B car.
Oh, so the shape of a car determines its performance now, wow, you better go tell all those automotive engineers out there.
@darthjader08 awd on a dry track is no great advantage.why would f1 teams spend millions in developement when all they needed to beat everyone was a s4?
your ignorance is outstanding.
a f1 car would lap an s4 within a handful of laps.the numbers cant lie.the laws of physics still apply at estoril you know 1300hp 600kg v 600hp 890kg = good bye shitty s4
@markandrach WTF????? AWD isn't an advantage when you're racing with one car that relies on AWD for its traction whereas the other relies on the tires BEING HOT for its traction and both cars are racing with cold tires?????? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?>????????
Uh......"all they needed was an S4"??? it was CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY at its time, MILLIONS were spent developing Group-B cars.
I already said that after several laps an F1 car would win you fucking retard....cont'd....
@markandrach HAHAHAHA.....do YOU watch F1???? It most certainly starts from a standing start (in the sense that a speed limited pace lap is a standing start....which it more or less is). You're a complete fucking moron and F1 fanboi....grow up little man.
@markandrach ...cont'd...though it would be more like 10-15 laps before an F1 car could lap it. The conditions of a qualifying lap favour the S4 in EVERY possible fucking way, but this isn't an argument about racing the two, it's an argument about RECORDED lap times DURING TESTING, vs. QUALIFYING lap a short time later,
If you knew ANYTHING about the laws of Physics, you'd EXACTLY why the S4 lapped Estoril so quickly....unfortunately you're too much of a pigheaded fool to understand physics.
@darthjader08 ive not played a video game for 15 years.
the facts are there to see,watch a video of a '86 1300hp f1 car.double the hp and just over half the weight of an s4.
the over hyped view of s4's you have is amazing.yes they were quick cars in 86,compared to todays cars they are slow,compared to a 86 f1 which you do,they were prehistoric.the f1 car averaged 195km/h!!!!
@markandrach uhhhh...no....1/8 more power, 1/4 less weight, gearing set up for endurance, rather than the S4's maximization of power for acceleration, stop pulling values out of your ass.
Overhyped??? you're the one who doesn't even understand BASIC vehicle performance dynamics. The S4, RS200, S1, T16 are blisteringly fast even by today's standards....they DOMINATE Rally-x despite having outdated drivetrains....that's all in the power, power delivery, and weight distribution....
@markandrach S4: 840hp on max boost setting between the turbo and supercharger (which they used for testing prior to hill climb events) (Audi had an inline 5 in the works that produced over 1000hp at the time that Group-B got banned, there was no limit on power, only power adders - max of 2 - and engine displacement), F1: Highest recorded AT THE TIRES was 900hp at that time, just barely more than the S4
S4: 800kg F1: 700kg
LMFAO, I'm a Subaru owner and ultimate fanboi...cont'd...
@markandrach I have factory dyno tests both engine and tire output....and you're accusing me of over estimating power????? wtf is wrong with you???? do you sniff a lot of glue or something??? like seriously.... and wtf are you talking about "vid question"
I've watched F1 cars throughout the 80's & 90's, I've watched group b cars, I own dvd's of both....you really have no fucking clue.
@markandrach ...cont'd....but even I know that while my STi's drivetrain is superior....I would (at best) post 2/3 the speed I would in an S4 or Audi S1....if I didn't get myself killed, those cars had nearly 3x the power, with less than half the traction....and better weight distribution.
You're a fucking moron if you're going to compare a stock subaru to a group-b rally car.....that's like comparing a Cessna to an SR88 Blackbird
@darthjader08 im not comparing a stock subaru to anything,im making the point that awd street cars are not going to compete with track cars and massive downforce and power.
i doubt youve even been in a subaru,some watered down us market one maybe
@markandrach 2008, I pre-ordered my midnight blue STi (had a $40,000 downpayment from the sale of my house, for the car, was going to finance the rest), placed a deposit on it, sales guy waited til I drove 1500km to pick it up before he told me he sold it, tried to sell me a pearl white one with 40 km on the odo, I told him to give me my deposit back, bought myself a Porsche 928GT instead, traded the 928 1.5 yrs. later for a GC8D chassis STi Ver. III, upgraded the turbo, awesome performance.
@markandrach Stop posting because it's clear you have only a rudimentary understanding of vehicle performance dynamics. What's worse....an overblown view of F1 specs.....holy fuck man....do you even have the slightest idea what you're talking about?
@markandrach I know exactly what the difference is between these cars: one is a glorified go kart with a low drag coefficient, incredible downforce, and built for high avg. endurance speeds (i.e. non stop racing for hours on end), the other is a technological marvel of its time, that resembles a road going family performance car, but is anything but, built for blisteringly fast sprints through the most compromised of conditions, both are the highest level of performance for their ....cont'd...
@darthjader08 f1 cars arenot exactly slow,it would slaughter an s4 to 150mph,about the max a s4 would do.anymore and the brick shape will be unstable.
for example the top gear track where they time a variety of cars.an f1 (true track car) was over 20 seconds faster than the very fastest of road cars.
an s4 wouldnt stand a chance against track cars of the same era.
when watching a vid of an 80's turbo f1,do you honestly think an s4 would keep up????
@markandrach F1 cars are blisteringly fast, but they are endurance racers....as sprinters their performance on a dry, short track, from a cold start is about the same as a Group-B car, different reasons between the two, but similar results.
Do you even understand the difference between a roadgoing car and a homologated car? shit, I bet you think the S4 had an aluminum body, body on frame chassis, and glass windows....rofl....
@markandrach ...cont'd...respective categories, and I recognize the fact that in an environment which is a middle ground between the two areas of performance they are designed for, both will produce similar results, unfortunately you're too dense and amateur to recognize it.
Here are several things you haven't considered: QUALIFYING lap, meaning TIRES ARE NOT HEATED UP, SINGLE lap from a standing start, SHORT track, all of those conditions favour the S4, do I really need to explain why?
@darthjader08 qualifying lap...standing start????? are you fucking stupid?? they do sessions of laps with fully warm tyres and NO standing start.do you even watch f1??
@markandrach Are you for real????? Do you have ANY idea how big a Fanboi I am of Ayrton Senna's Honda Powered Lotus???? Do you have the SLIGHTEST idea how many dvd's I have????
@markandrach how much I don't understand about cars?????? YOU'RE the one spouting off theoretical performance figures, taking into account ONLY power and weight, completely ignoring EVERY OTHER FUCKING FACTOR that is VERY relevant to performance in varying conditions.....EVEN IF YOUR NUMBERS WERE CORRECT you'd still be WAY off on the outcome since you clearly don't realize how much tire traction, gearing, weight distribution, gearing, etc. etc.....plays a factor....
@markandrach BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....you fucking moron....."the Italian who bbq'd himself" (because the gas tank ruptured in a crash) was Henri Toivonen, the SAME guy who lapped Estoril in 1:18....you just made it quite clear you DON'T KNOW JACK SHIT on the subject.
Funny....I was about to say the exact same thing about you....only difference is, I would actually be correct....how old are you...17??? Do you even have a license? You wouldn't know shit about real cars....try driving a 400hp...cont'd..
@markandrach ...cont'd....try driving a 400+ hp front engined, rear wheel drive (mid mounted transmission) Porsche with TCS turned off, in the rain.....have you even driven over 200mph in your life? You haven't done shit, you don't know shit, you have a piece of shit beater Subaru Justy, and you probably don't even have a license, odds are you're probably in your parents basement playing xbox you piece of shit little poser.
@madjimms why shuldnt he?, they only made 1 decent car and that was the impreza, and that had far too much hype then what it deserved...loud exhuasts and dump valves don't make good cars
@madjimms I know it's a cool little car, fun to drive too, and that 4wd on the fly is AWESOME when you want to fuck around on a dirt road at high speeds....personally I think if Subaru had been smart, they could have made a brilliant Group-B car out of the Justy......it just needed a 2.0 L boxer engine with twin turbos....a stronger chassis, mid mounted engine, and a better drivetrain. Having said that...EVERY Justy you see nowadays is a rusted out piece of shit that's been mistreated and abused
@madjimms by shitty owners......THAT's why I call HIS Justy a piece of shit. If you like I could imply that he has a beater GL....but that wouldn't have as much effect....
@markandrach As for the S4's handling, Part of the reason the group-b cars were banned was because they were becoming too fast to control, the reasons: their lightweight design, gear ratios, power output, and lack of any real tcs on their AWD drivetrains. But you're wrong, the S4 (alongside other group-b cars) had exceptional handling, HOWEVER, they were nimble, and had excellent control, BUT they were not very stable....and with that kind of power, poor stability spells TROUBLE.
@markandrach You mean Henri Toivonen and his co-driver? If you actually knew anything about rally, you'd know it was the very same driver who lapped Estoril in 1:18 during testing.
It wasn't the Handling that caused the accident (and the handling was exceptional for a mid engined, AWD with an old AWD drivetrain. It was that the Group-B cars were getting to be too fast for the drivers to control.
Um...no, that description would define YOU, not me.
Furthermore, in all likelihood, THIS Delta is more than likely PRIVATELY OWNED and therefore the owner cannot conceivably achieve the same boost pressures that the factory run S4's did, but I guess you wouldn't really know anything about that would you...
@darthjader08 if there was video footage it would be on here and used when anyone laughs at this silly myth.it probibly comes from henri test driving a f1 car and posting a reasonable time.
im going to leave you to play with your x box now,while i go and drive a real rally car,subaru
@markandrach Oh really? I would do it, but I have no fucking clue how to rip and upload a PAL dvd....well...that and I'd be ripping off APV....
Henri toivonen never drove an F1 car, it was during a testing session (with hill climb boost settings on the Turbo and supercharger) in an S4, no doubt about it whatsoever. Why don't you do a little bit of research? Well documented sites who NOBODY would refute contain the EXACT same information.
@markandrach ...if you know anything about Subaru's then you know the Chassis code for the lightest Impreza Model ever....(i.e. the most effective for rally racing), what is it?
Personally, I'm all over the Subaru's, I love the team....BUT, they don't compare to the Group-B cars, Case in point: SCCA Group-N Class, a (homologated S1) Audi Sport Quattro trounced the competition 3 years running in SCCA pro-rally. The upside to the Subarus: newer and more effective drivetrain i.e. easier to control
@markandrach now please, stop pulling shit out of your ass fanboi. F1 cars pwn all, Group-B cars happen to have been blisteringly fast street legal cars that could sprint fast enough to hold their own against F1 cars (of their time) on short tracks from a standing start, whine and bitch all you like, it doesn't change the truth. Fuck I hate sore loser fanbois like you, the world would be better without you.
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@7emanuele7 Mathematics is not an opinion lol
so2fast4u2 2 weeks ago
wtf
markos8686 2 weeks ago
Looks sorrta like an AMC Gremlin
AnalogRocks 2 weeks ago
During the 1986 Rally Portugal Henri Toivonen drove his Delta S4 at the Estoril track, and recorded a lap time which would have qualified him in sixth position at that year's Formula One Portuguese Grand Prix.
jamdarr 2 weeks ago
One of the most technologically advanced rally cars ever built, before Group B was cancelled. Even Ferrari was planning on competing against this monster with the 288 GTO. Amongst other things, it used both turbocharging and supercharging.
MarquisEstelle 3 weeks ago
Only in 0-60 thanks to torque, grip and gearbox ratios
1975DCS 4 weeks ago
the s4 is quicker than today's f1 cars
Petrolface 2 months ago
@Petrolface No offense but not even close. sorry . FACT
ekrantzlotus06 4 weeks ago
What kind of engine is in that? Sounds an awful lot like a rotary.
VicTheMazdaFan1993 2 months ago
@VicTheMazdaFan1993 ِAbarth 1759 cc 4 cylinder roots supercharger and kkk turbo charger for the original GRP B rally version,some hillclimb cars are using 2000 cc engines.
Emoddd 2 months ago
@Emoddd Ahh, okay. It seriously made me wonder, cuz it sounds a bit like a small brother to the 787B's neutral noise. Lol
VicTheMazdaFan1993 2 months ago
@simza03 Umh no.
so2fast4u2 2 months ago
fragile?????
id consider the crashes where people walk out of to be testament that f1 cars are extremly strong and at the pinacle of safety.
are you smoking something? im not the one comparing f1 to gpb.if you hadnt noticed f1 is only raced on tarmac.
the point about power is very valid when you weigh 600kg and can create 2000kg of down force
again...DONT COMPARE F1 TO GPB if you feel the need to compare,compare wrc to gpb...im affraid your beloved gpb will again be shown dust...fact not opinion
markandrach 2 months ago
A fromula renault 2000 as well as sportsracers and what not which are much slower then any f1 car is beating a very fast and updated Delta S4 at the european hillclimbs,. So to claim that the s4 beat the F1 cars of its time and on an F1 circuit which is very high speed and requires lots of down force is not true.Any way the Delta s4 is my Dream car!
Emoddd 2 months ago
I would like to comment that the f1 cars of today are not as fast as those of the 80's and early 90's simply due to new restrictions that have been added since then. at least that's what I think.
driftfreak6969 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@pishabness Stop making fun of yourself. Read my copy/paste off wiki and use that thing in your skull...
so2fast4u2 2 months ago
the sound wow fuck
Nigelk388 2 months ago
By 1986, a BMW turbocharged engine achieved a flash reading of 5.5 bar pressure, estimated to be over 1,300 bhp (970 kW) in qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix.
The next year power in race trim reached around 1,100 bhp (820 kW), with boost pressure limited to only 4.0 bar.[22]These cars were the most powerful open-wheel circuit racing cars ever.
Off wiki
so2fast4u2 3 months ago
I love it how there's still people answering to my answer comment, typing that the Lancia is faster than the F1 car of it's time.
As i sed before:
Power and weight +
Downforce and electronics
= You are retarded.
so2fast4u2 3 months ago 9
To be fair this car would never see dirt, its way too low, no sump clearence and has stupid wide tyres, this has been built for one purpose and one terrain only, tarmac.
jubster16 3 months ago
will people please get their facts straight
an s4 would be lapped with in 3 or 4 laps against an 86 f1 car
markandrach 3 months ago
thats gota be a rotary engine
Littlemac181 3 months ago
@hxsoul if it was a 10 second lap then yes, other than that it's like when my mate said his dads car could beat an F1 car - totally uneducated and stupid.
no way an s4 is 4 seconds a lap slower than f1, try 24 seconds if it's lucky
nicelittlerunner 3 months ago
@pettersaethre Umh, it's a former group B Rally car... many sections, if not majority where gravel,sand,snow and other mixed terains other than Tarmac... Wiki is your friend kid, use it.
so2fast4u2 3 months ago
@fstylezkrNNN LOL i was thinking in 1/4 mile drags or tarmac circuit race... F1 cars aren't build for offroad kid.
Your point is invalid.
so2fast4u2 3 months ago
@so2fast4u2 the lancia ain`t built for offroad either^^
pettersaethre 3 months ago
it's sound like my washing machine.
yakuzachin88 3 months ago
@hxsoul Dude seriously now... Think about it for just a second... Delta s4's weight and power
Ferrari F1's weight and power
Than add the downforce factors and electronics.
That is all.
so2fast4u2 4 months ago
@fstylezkrNNN LOL xD
so2fast4u2 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hey everybody that loves rally (guessing most of you), I have a little baby blog weloverally blogspot com and I just want at least one follower. RALLY IS MY PASSION! There will be t shirts soon!
therytee 5 months ago
I've been reading some coments and let me be straight. Veyron is an awesome car but it is an ugly piece of shit. The Lancia Delta S4 isnt great looking either but its better looking than the Veyron. Ferrari is an epic car manufacturer. Lamborghini and Zonda has the best supercars and since when does Porsche has the best sports cars in the world? the best sports car in the world is the Nissan GT-R. Ferrari is not unriliable, American and English cars are. STFU and enjoy the vid douchefags! Peace
112leo 5 months ago
awesome
SprejRyska 5 months ago
@5150jafo umh... wait a sec... you actualy beleve that a Lancia S4 could keep up with a F1 car ?
The S4 is an awesome car but you've been on drugs for to long.
so2fast4u2 6 months ago 24
@so2fast4u2 Ahahahahahah! Well said!
FrancescoGrazianoDj 5 months ago
@so2fast4u2 Ahahahahahah!
FrancescoGrazianoDj 5 months ago
@so2fast4u2 depends where you race it :P f1 cant do anything other then tarmac XD
fstylezkrNNN 5 months ago
@so2fast4u2 Think hes lost, the Peugeot 205 t16 grp b car had acceleration as as a f1 car the first 100 meters, Think thats what he ment(and thats the 80s f1 can with not half as good tiers or control the f1 cars today have.
niklas913swe 4 months ago
@so2fast4u2
not to sure about the lancia s4 buh high end rally/rally cross cars can get to 60 mph before an F1 car could, fact. buhh the F1 car is obvs faster after that :)
clickhear08 4 months ago
@so2fast4u2 when the s4 was being tested at a track years ago there was an F1 team testing at the same time, the track that the s4 was on was roughly the same distance as the track that the F1 team were using, i think the s4 was laping around 4 seconds slower than the F1 car was,,,,,,,,, ON GRAVEL ,,, nuff seid
hxsoul 4 months ago
@so2fast4u2 hey a s4 could beat a f1... seeing as a f1 can only go on 1 kind of Surface unlike the S4.. so truely it can win :)
fstylezkrNNN 3 months ago
@so2fast4u2 Maybe, GRoup b was 4 sec slower than mid 80's F1 if you put an EVO version of the car.
MegaJCMartin94 3 months ago
@so2fast4u2 actually they can :0 sorry bud but i think your the one on drugs
chaospenguin1 3 months ago
@so2fast4u2 : In the days this car was conceived, a factory S4 w/ 600hp could nearly keep up with a F1 car on some circuits. Couple this to the fact that the S4 will do 0-60 in 2.5sec everywhere, I know what the reall winner is.
pishabness 2 months ago
@pishabness hahahahahahaha
an s4 is no where near as quick as a modern wrc car
comparing 1 to a f1 car (even a 86 car) is utterly stupid
markandrach 2 months ago
@markandrach : Those aren't my words bitch. A group-B rally driver of the time claimed that they[Group-B cars] were within 3-4 seconds of F1 cars at certain venues (it's on utube search for yourself). And that's given that rally cars weren't even designed for circuit racing. All F1 cars are fragile beasts that are constructed to barely last a single race. You can take a S4 to the moon and back and still race the rally of Portugal.
pishabness 2 months ago
@pishabness you are living in a dream world
check hill climb vids.open wheel cars beat s4's easily.
a 1986 f1 car in qual trim was 1400hp
s4's are quick but they aint that quick
a wrc would slaughter a gp b
check the vid on here of a f1 against a focus.proof if proof is needed
markandrach 2 months ago
@markandrach : Your logic contradicts itself. A modern F1 car will also destroy a 1986 F1 turbo. The S4 like most group-b cars were crude, but developed in a short period of time. If WRC is faster today, it's because of 20+ years of development. Group-B only lived a few years, but in that time it gained legendary status. The S4 has twice the power of WRC. It will at the very least out accelerate everything you pit it against. Super short gearing + massive torque = gg!!! You can't deny that.
pishabness 2 months ago
@pishabness your opinion of an s4 is highy inflated
to compare against an f1 car lunacy of the highest order
f1 0-100-0 in 6 seconds,now that is acceleration an s4 could only dream of
5 or 6 g in corners would have an s4 going in a straight line and missing the apex by a country mile
im done with this.
im not wasting time with some one who is deluded and thinks an s4 is as quick as an f1 car.
keep playing the x-box
markandrach 2 months ago
@markandrach : What an idiotic noob. A delta S4 is faster than a F1 car on any surface other than asphalt. End of. My original comment about circuit racing was limited to certain tracks that didn't have long straights. F1 cars today are a joke. They're so fragile that they demand the circuits be resurfaced, and that already happened over the past few years. Also, your quoted 1400hp F1 monsters accelerate slower than today's 800hp cars. Your point about more power is also invalid.
pishabness 2 months ago
@pishabness
Tri-flux engined cars had mega horse power>
MsCrazytoo 1 month ago
@so2fast4u2 s4 would be faster inside a carpark...
simza03 2 months ago
@so2fast4u2...
Ask Nigel Mansell.
5150jafo 1 month ago
@so2fast4u2 that`s a matter of opinion.. If a F1 would race with a S4 on an Uphill-Track like in this Video, the F1 had no chance...don`t compares apple with pears ^^
7emanuele7 2 weeks ago
that is a serious rear end
ImpulseWRX 6 months ago
@ImpulseWRX
Man, I love that rear end. With all the stuff exposed like that...
We need more of that from moderner cars
NegativeNumbers427 6 months ago
will it blend?
BLOOD4UNTER 7 months ago
@5150jafo why have I been told anything?I just ignore him now.the truth is a s4 is never going to keep up with an f1 car.its not even a debate!
markandrach 7 months ago
This can't die...it's too awesome.
5150jafo 7 months ago
Markandrach is nothing more than a n00b f1 fanboi who can't handle the fact that a street legal race car built specifically for super quick sprints can run with non-street legal endurance race cars built specifically for extended track performance in a race environment that embodies quick sprints.....He knows fuck all and pulls random facts out of his ass...he really needs to do a little bit of research
darthjader08 7 months ago
Just to clarify on 0:36-0:47: The S4 is both Supercharged & Turbocharged to prevent turbo lag especially at low RPM's when there is very little exhaust pressure to spin the Turbos.
A true classic and a technical marvel, you don't see that anywhere anymore ) ^`:
erikig 8 months ago
@erikig the volkswagon 1.4 tsi is both supercharged and turbocharged to be pedantic
ckeith1987 6 months ago
@ckeith1987 - touché :^)
erikig 6 months ago
@erikig How about the Audi A1 TFSi ;)? That car has the same technology
xplayer90 4 months ago
@erikig There's a Turbo/supercharger setup in my stepdad's Viper. Now the Viper is a technological marvel.
brapboys503 4 months ago
@erikig what about vw tfsi?
T3DeathByte 3 months ago
What a sick exaust pipe O.O
metaomicron72 8 months ago
germans have got the engineering, japs have got the technology but they havent got one of the key things the italians have got, and that is passion and that is what made this 1 of the best rally cars ever (my opinin anyway)
TAppo2k9 8 months ago
Beautiful car!
madjimms 8 months ago
where do you get the info from that a qualifying lap is a standing start??? id love to know
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach I'm old enough to be a fairly well established stunt driver and have 2 regional rally championship 1st place finishes under my belt. You on the other hand sound like some fanboi punk teenager.
darthjader08 8 months ago
Haha, sounds like a John Deere at the end :D
HighwayHunkie 8 months ago
@carmastrikes Well, it obviously wasn't racing off-road, was it? If it was, it would have had off-road tires on. Use your head...
TranceFur 9 months ago
WTF??? y the slicks? it sould have off road tires!
carmastrikes 9 months ago
Hey, don't look under her skirt!
Laakerii 9 months ago
Lamborghini have to say thank you to germany JUST FOR THE cockpit. Don't think that in Bologna and Modena somebody need germanian people for build cars....
ramof79 9 months ago
That's the only good Lancia, all other's are moving garbage.
Kettenschredderer 9 months ago
@Kettenschredderer what about the 037, and Stratos???? Both legendary and well revered cars.
darthjader08 8 months ago
Lancia Deltas give me boners..
Monacomaverick 10 months ago
is that in Elchingen, near Neresheim?
MrBayernarsch 10 months ago
bugatti veyron is the worst looking car of the centure
imacperc 10 months ago 8
e son di tutti voi.... signora e padrona!!! VINCERE E' UMANO PERSEVERARE E' DELTA...
furiogt1 10 months ago
Beautiful car, Lancias have the greatest rally pedigree of all.
C63AMGestate 11 months ago
who are the morons who think these are as quick as an f1 car?
come on own up to your stupidity
markandrach 11 months ago
@markandrach In the forest... they are. But that's pretty bleeding obvious lol.
C63AMGestate 11 months ago
@markandrach Henri Toivonen with his Delta S4 made time to qualify on 6th position in f1 at that time at Estoril race track in Portugal. So... wut did you say about stupidity?
Peak1RA 8 months ago
@Peak1RA first of all that is a total internet myth.there is no record of it.only dreamers posting it on here.
ok,lets put some numbers down.in 1986 f1 cars qualified with 1400hp!!!! an s4 weighed more and had 600 hp and had nowhere near the downforce.
gpB rally cars were a great sight and sound but in reality they were not very quick.gpA cars were quickers within 2 years of the ban
if you can sit there and believe a f1 car is as quick as a rally car,well there no point discussing it
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach WTF are you talking about???? Group B cars ran with the BEST of the F1 cars on F1 tracks, Peak1RA is right, Henri Toivonen lapped estoril fast enough to qualify for 6th place starting position in the following race shortly after his record breaking lap. Not very quick???? 2.1 seconds (ON DIRT!!!!) isn't quick???? find me a street legal car ANYWHERE that's as quick on pavement! F1 cars NEVER weighed less than 800kg (the S4's weight), and the downforce is nearly the same.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 you are showing a total lack of knowledge.96 f1 cars minimum weight was 500kg.s4's are about as un-areodynamic as a brick.the f1 car would be 200mph in places ,a s4 140 utter max.where does the s4 make that much up?certainly not corners.i challenge you to find real proof of any of those 'facts' you state.everyone is wrong.
go and do some reasearch and dont beleive everything on the net
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Yeah, go do a little research yourself, rather than reading the specs posted in video games, prior to 1990, F1 cars had a minimum weight requirement of 790kg, never less than that. Group B cars were built for quick acceleration and keeping a fast avg. speed, not a constant high speed, wtf does a low drag coefficient have to do with that? F1 cars RARELY ever achieve speeds beyond 170mph for very long on F1 tracks, Group-B cars had a top speed in the 155-164mph range...cont'd...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...cont'd....which were the highest speeds clocked between different group-b car models. Unlike F1 cars, Group-B cars were never designed to maintain high speeds for long, but they were designed to achieve those top speeds faster than anything, and because of that design characteristic (largely due to gear ratios), Group-B cars were not only quicker than F1 cars, but also every bit as fast on twistier tracks, it's because of that characteristic, that he lapped estoril as fast as f1
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach As far as proof....I have mountains of DVDS on my shelf of various Group-B cars, during races (mostly Rally Great Britian, WRC 1984-1988), testing sessions, news broadcasts, etc. including Henri Toivonen's 1:18 lap time on Estoril. Now YOU have evidently only gathered your information from specs in video games, I'm as big a fan of Gran Turismo as anyone (unfortunately, being a gaming addict, I cannot play Racing simulation games, or RPG's...cont'd...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...cont'd....kinda like a former alcoholic cannot have a glass of beer. Bottom line is (in answer to your question) there are two ways in which the S4 gained time on F1 cars on Estoril: 1) because it's such a short track, due to its inherent design characteristics....the S4 gets up to pace, and completes the lap in quick time 2) in the corners, being a less stable but more nimble car, the S4 had the advantage. Having said that (about the track length) the S4 would lose...cont'd...
darthjader08 8 months ago
...cont'd...that advantage after the first lap (when it's no longer from a standing start), and, in a multi lap race, the S4 would certainly get its ass handed to it, but in a single lap race the S4 could easily hang with the F1 cars. Group-B rally cars were sprinters, F1 cars were endurance high speed runners, so for a short lap on an endurance track, the S4 would maintain all its advantages, while the F1 car would lose many advantages. Bonus to the S4: it seats 2, street legal, goes anywhere.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 where is the video of this event?if lancia went to the trouble and expense of setting this up.they WOULD have filmed it.i will say again the f1 cars minimum weight was 500kg with upto 1300/1400hp in qual trim.nigel mansell lapped the 4.3km circuit in 1;20 secs @195km.
you remind me of the moon hoax believers,no proof to back your crazy ideas.
watch some of the hill climb clips where gpb cars race against open wheel cars that have nowhere near the power of f1.
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Apparently you have an issue with reading comprehension, first of all I said I have the dvd with footage of the mentioned testing session, second, what about "TESTING SESSION" don't you understand????? Automotive tests aren't always about publicity, as fanbois like you so often think, it's part of the process of Homologation, testing is done discreetly, however, now, 23 yrs. after the fact, the footage is available on DVD, all you have to do is go to Amazon and order the dvd.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach Not only are you wrong on the weight requirement, but it is also ENTIRELY irrelevant to the conversation. the HIGHEST power output EVER recorded from an F1 engine was 1300hp from the Honda powered McLaren, and it was promptly adjusted to produce less power. good luck with your bullshit argument.
speaking of moon hoax believers.....
Yah, and you ever notice how the AWD hill climb cars lay waste to the open wheeled racers (which are running in the realm of 900hp)?
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 were not talking about dirt tracks,all tarmac.go on the prescott website,bergrennan website.goodwood fos record was from an f1 car in 1999 at 41 seconds.all the records are from open wheel racers.
there is no point being rational with facts,you beleive a rally can keep up with a 200mph f1 car :-) too much xbox.
go on a motorsport website and ask the question.they will put you right.
ok what is this video of a s4 doing a 1;20 at estoril called?post a link?it doesnt exist!good bye
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Too much xbox? please, the ONLY racing game that even has Group-B rally cars in it is Gran Turismo, and they got the specs horribly wrong (largely due to the lack of desire to provide official specs for their respective cars). YOU'RE the one pulling bullshit specs off video games, 500kg my ass....
Do you even know the difference between tarmac and pavement? Doubt it. Goodwood is a joke. Motorsport websites contain nothing but fanbois who have minimal knowledge.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach And that's strange, I'm staring at a dvd (which apparently doesn't exist) right there on my shelf as we speak, APV Reportages Presentes Delta S4 A La Une , yes, a French Video, you can order it off Amazon for 20 euros and in 6-8 weeks it will arrive in your mailbox. Be sure to have PAL dvd playing capability though. Watch through the Rally GB clips, and during the credits, Henri Toivonen's Test lap at Estoril plays, with the time clearly posted on the stop watch.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 oh you are comical,modern wrc cars are much faster than gpb.
you seem to have this romantic view about gpb cars.
yes ive seen them rally,i really like them but i understand that no way on this planet is a car with 900kg and 600hp going to keep up with a 540kg 1200/1300 hp car with amazing downforce and grip.200mph max against 140/150 is also agtainst the s4.
ive seen audi s1's lancia s4's,gpb r5,205 t16.id never seen anything take off like it until i saw the abu dhabi focus.
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach uhhhh.....modern WRC cars run overall stage times about the same as Group B cars did....and there's one very simple reason for that: 20 FUCKING YEARS OF TECHNOLOGICAL IMPROVEMENTS TO THE DRIVETRAINS YOU FUCKING DOLT!!!! Even with all their drivetrain improvements, modern Group-A cars don't accelerate anywhere near as quick (3.8 seconds to 100km/h for most Group-A cars), as opposed to 2.1 seconds for the Group-B cars (both values are on dirt.)
darthjader08 8 months ago
uhhhh....yeah....adjust your values a bit there bud: 800kg, over 800hp (on hill climb boost settings), gearing built for sprinting, compared to a 700kg 900hp RWD F1 car with gearing set up for maintaining high speeds.....doesn't seem so far fetched now does it.....with 170mph max (on estoril) for F1 cars against 163mph for the S4.....with massive downforce for both vehicles (producing approximately the same downforce, similar weight distribution, and an AWD advantage for the S4.
darthjader08 8 months ago
Put the same driver in both the F1 car and the S4, as long as he's competent, he'll get very similar times....as long as he can drive both according to their unique characteristics. In reality however, odds are an average driver would probably be faster in the S4, and quite possibly crash in the F1 car.
The Abu Dhabi Focus isn't even a Group-A Rally car you dolt....are you just pulling random details out of your ass????
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 haha,i love your posts of miss-information.i cant even be arsed discussing cars with someone who cant even see that he's posting on s4hillclimb video with 600hp and still thinks they are 800hp.
same downforce as an 86 f1 car????? are you for real????
if the focus was a modern gpN car that was even more embarassing for the old cars then.
i'll leave you to go back to where the x box is a documentary machine
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach yeah...uhhhh...have you been paying attention AT ALL????? This vid isn't even a WRC Rally....so in what conceivable way do you think that it would have WRC spec'd boost settings???? Do you even understand the difference between REGIONAL and INTERNATIONAL rallies?
I didn't say SAME I said APPROXIMATELY the same, the difference being MAYBE 200lb downforce at speed, wow, what a fucking dolt...
I'm not the one playing too many racing games here, you're the one pulling specs outta game
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach furthermore, you're claiming "fact" based on what you perceive to be common knowledge....whereas I'm basing my FACTS on documented video, and empirical evidence. So seriously....JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP DIPSHIT!!! You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, but you carry on with the pompous attitude of a politician, just shut it, you don't know SHIT.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 are you going to the gp later with an s4 and showing all how to race?i suppose you could do better than all those boys.
you really have to be 1 of a handfull of deluded people who really dont understand how bloody quick f1 cars were in 86 compared to what is basically the same shape as car what you would see on the street
a gpC car from the 86 season would be lapping a s4 within a few laps.
i really wish you would just open your eyes to the differance between these cars
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach LOL, stop being such a moron.
I know exactly how much power F1 cars had in 86, I also know how shitty the traction control was, and that they had to go easy on the throttle to keep from losing the rear end, transversely with its AWD control, a skilled driver could more or less go full throttle on a GP track in a Group-B car.
Oh, so the shape of a car determines its performance now, wow, you better go tell all those automotive engineers out there.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 awd on a dry track is no great advantage.why would f1 teams spend millions in developement when all they needed to beat everyone was a s4?
your ignorance is outstanding.
a f1 car would lap an s4 within a handful of laps.the numbers cant lie.the laws of physics still apply at estoril you know 1300hp 600kg v 600hp 890kg = good bye shitty s4
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach WTF????? AWD isn't an advantage when you're racing with one car that relies on AWD for its traction whereas the other relies on the tires BEING HOT for its traction and both cars are racing with cold tires?????? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?>????????
Uh......"all they needed was an S4"??? it was CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY at its time, MILLIONS were spent developing Group-B cars.
I already said that after several laps an F1 car would win you fucking retard....cont'd....
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 why would it need several laps?
qualifying never takes place from a standing start
again.
do you watch an 86 turbo qual video and honestly thing that a s4 would keep up???
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach HAHAHAHA.....do YOU watch F1???? It most certainly starts from a standing start (in the sense that a speed limited pace lap is a standing start....which it more or less is). You're a complete fucking moron and F1 fanboi....grow up little man.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 the start is,but you say the qualifying is from a standing start!!!!!!!!!!!!!
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach and in what way is a low speed start NOT a standing start when cars of that caliber are involved?
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...cont'd...though it would be more like 10-15 laps before an F1 car could lap it. The conditions of a qualifying lap favour the S4 in EVERY possible fucking way, but this isn't an argument about racing the two, it's an argument about RECORDED lap times DURING TESTING, vs. QUALIFYING lap a short time later,
If you knew ANYTHING about the laws of Physics, you'd EXACTLY why the S4 lapped Estoril so quickly....unfortunately you're too much of a pigheaded fool to understand physics.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach I really wish you could learn to not base your information on video games and amateurish opinion.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 ive not played a video game for 15 years.
the facts are there to see,watch a video of a '86 1300hp f1 car.double the hp and just over half the weight of an s4.
the over hyped view of s4's you have is amazing.yes they were quick cars in 86,compared to todays cars they are slow,compared to a 86 f1 which you do,they were prehistoric.the f1 car averaged 195km/h!!!!
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach uhhhh...no....1/8 more power, 1/4 less weight, gearing set up for endurance, rather than the S4's maximization of power for acceleration, stop pulling values out of your ass.
Overhyped??? you're the one who doesn't even understand BASIC vehicle performance dynamics. The S4, RS200, S1, T16 are blisteringly fast even by today's standards....they DOMINATE Rally-x despite having outdated drivetrains....that's all in the power, power delivery, and weight distribution....
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 lancia 600hp f1 1300hp--------more than double
lancia 890kg f1 600kg with driver-----------just a bit less than half
its like my subaru racing a 550hp car that weighs 700kg basically awd aint going to do jack shit
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach S4: 840hp on max boost setting between the turbo and supercharger (which they used for testing prior to hill climb events) (Audi had an inline 5 in the works that produced over 1000hp at the time that Group-B got banned, there was no limit on power, only power adders - max of 2 - and engine displacement), F1: Highest recorded AT THE TIRES was 900hp at that time, just barely more than the S4
S4: 800kg F1: 700kg
LMFAO, I'm a Subaru owner and ultimate fanboi...cont'd...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 minumum weight of f1 550 kg s4 890 kg without drivers. 86 f1 qualifying trim was upto 1300hp.
people over estimate the power of gpb because they read to much shite on the net.
you wont answer my vid question because you know a s4 would not keep up by a long way
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach I have factory dyno tests both engine and tire output....and you're accusing me of over estimating power????? wtf is wrong with you???? do you sniff a lot of glue or something??? like seriously.... and wtf are you talking about "vid question"
I've watched F1 cars throughout the 80's & 90's, I've watched group b cars, I own dvd's of both....you really have no fucking clue.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...cont'd....but even I know that while my STi's drivetrain is superior....I would (at best) post 2/3 the speed I would in an S4 or Audi S1....if I didn't get myself killed, those cars had nearly 3x the power, with less than half the traction....and better weight distribution.
You're a fucking moron if you're going to compare a stock subaru to a group-b rally car.....that's like comparing a Cessna to an SR88 Blackbird
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 im not comparing a stock subaru to anything,im making the point that awd street cars are not going to compete with track cars and massive downforce and power.
i doubt youve even been in a subaru,some watered down us market one maybe
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach 2008, I pre-ordered my midnight blue STi (had a $40,000 downpayment from the sale of my house, for the car, was going to finance the rest), placed a deposit on it, sales guy waited til I drove 1500km to pick it up before he told me he sold it, tried to sell me a pearl white one with 40 km on the odo, I told him to give me my deposit back, bought myself a Porsche 928GT instead, traded the 928 1.5 yrs. later for a GC8D chassis STi Ver. III, upgraded the turbo, awesome performance.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach Stop posting because it's clear you have only a rudimentary understanding of vehicle performance dynamics. What's worse....an overblown view of F1 specs.....holy fuck man....do you even have the slightest idea what you're talking about?
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach I know exactly what the difference is between these cars: one is a glorified go kart with a low drag coefficient, incredible downforce, and built for high avg. endurance speeds (i.e. non stop racing for hours on end), the other is a technological marvel of its time, that resembles a road going family performance car, but is anything but, built for blisteringly fast sprints through the most compromised of conditions, both are the highest level of performance for their ....cont'd...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 f1 cars arenot exactly slow,it would slaughter an s4 to 150mph,about the max a s4 would do.anymore and the brick shape will be unstable.
for example the top gear track where they time a variety of cars.an f1 (true track car) was over 20 seconds faster than the very fastest of road cars.
an s4 wouldnt stand a chance against track cars of the same era.
when watching a vid of an 80's turbo f1,do you honestly think an s4 would keep up????
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach F1 cars are blisteringly fast, but they are endurance racers....as sprinters their performance on a dry, short track, from a cold start is about the same as a Group-B car, different reasons between the two, but similar results.
Do you even understand the difference between a roadgoing car and a homologated car? shit, I bet you think the S4 had an aluminum body, body on frame chassis, and glass windows....rofl....
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 qualifying is not on cold tyres from a standing start.
why does that not sink in
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Yes, because one pace lap, and a couple test laps is certainly enough to get the tires up to max operating temperature
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...cont'd...respective categories, and I recognize the fact that in an environment which is a middle ground between the two areas of performance they are designed for, both will produce similar results, unfortunately you're too dense and amateur to recognize it.
Here are several things you haven't considered: QUALIFYING lap, meaning TIRES ARE NOT HEATED UP, SINGLE lap from a standing start, SHORT track, all of those conditions favour the S4, do I really need to explain why?
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 qualifying lap...standing start????? are you fucking stupid?? they do sessions of laps with fully warm tyres and NO standing start.do you even watch f1??
estoril was 4.3 km,hardly short
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Estoril is an EXTREMELY short track.....and tires are BARELY warmed up during qualifying laps...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 how old are you?
the tyres are fully warm.
it is not a standing start.
markandrach 8 months ago
@darthjader08 come on tell me if you can watch a video of a 86 f1 turbo and think an s4 is just as quick.
let the other viewers of this video see just how much you dont understand about cars
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Are you for real????? Do you have ANY idea how big a Fanboi I am of Ayrton Senna's Honda Powered Lotus???? Do you have the SLIGHTEST idea how many dvd's I have????
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 and you still think a s4 is as quick as senna qualiying in 86???
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach The numbers don't lie bud.....the numbers don't lie....
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach how much I don't understand about cars?????? YOU'RE the one spouting off theoretical performance figures, taking into account ONLY power and weight, completely ignoring EVERY OTHER FUCKING FACTOR that is VERY relevant to performance in varying conditions.....EVEN IF YOUR NUMBERS WERE CORRECT you'd still be WAY off on the outcome since you clearly don't realize how much tire traction, gearing, weight distribution, gearing, etc. etc.....plays a factor....
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 yes and an s4 was shit at handling,the proof is the italian who bbq'd himself and co driver.
end of the day you are a bullshitter,x box boy who knows f all about cars.
ppl will be reading your comments and laughing at you and your views
now im going to drive a real car,and laugh some more at your stupidity.
good bye little boy
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....you fucking moron....."the Italian who bbq'd himself" (because the gas tank ruptured in a crash) was Henri Toivonen, the SAME guy who lapped Estoril in 1:18....you just made it quite clear you DON'T KNOW JACK SHIT on the subject.
Funny....I was about to say the exact same thing about you....only difference is, I would actually be correct....how old are you...17??? Do you even have a license? You wouldn't know shit about real cars....try driving a 400hp...cont'd..
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...cont'd....try driving a 400+ hp front engined, rear wheel drive (mid mounted transmission) Porsche with TCS turned off, in the rain.....have you even driven over 200mph in your life? You haven't done shit, you don't know shit, you have a piece of shit beater Subaru Justy, and you probably don't even have a license, odds are you're probably in your parents basement playing xbox you piece of shit little poser.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 Woah buddy, don't be hating on Subaru!
madjimms 8 months ago
@madjimms why shuldnt he?, they only made 1 decent car and that was the impreza, and that had far too much hype then what it deserved...loud exhuasts and dump valves don't make good cars
TAppo2k9 8 months ago
@TAppo2k9 Subaru Loyal & Subaru GL are wonderful cars...
madjimms 8 months ago
@madjimms ummm...I own one and I'm the ultimate Subaru fanboi.....what could possibly cause you to say that?
darthjader08 8 months ago
@madjimms uhhhh....I'm not hating on Subaru, I own one...it's my pride and joy, and Pit it up against ANYONE's ride (with me driving of course).
darthjader08 7 months ago
@darthjader08 Justy isn't shit, although the guy may have a crappy one.
madjimms 7 months ago
@madjimms I know it's a cool little car, fun to drive too, and that 4wd on the fly is AWESOME when you want to fuck around on a dirt road at high speeds....personally I think if Subaru had been smart, they could have made a brilliant Group-B car out of the Justy......it just needed a 2.0 L boxer engine with twin turbos....a stronger chassis, mid mounted engine, and a better drivetrain. Having said that...EVERY Justy you see nowadays is a rusted out piece of shit that's been mistreated and abused
darthjader08 7 months ago
@madjimms by shitty owners......THAT's why I call HIS Justy a piece of shit. If you like I could imply that he has a beater GL....but that wouldn't have as much effect....
darthjader08 7 months ago
@darthjader08 I just want a Renault 5 MAXI , a Pugeot 205 turbo & a 82/83 Subaru GL 2 door. I LOOOOVE hatchbacks.
madjimms 7 months ago
@markandrach As for the S4's handling, Part of the reason the group-b cars were banned was because they were becoming too fast to control, the reasons: their lightweight design, gear ratios, power output, and lack of any real tcs on their AWD drivetrains. But you're wrong, the S4 (alongside other group-b cars) had exceptional handling, HOWEVER, they were nimble, and had excellent control, BUT they were not very stable....and with that kind of power, poor stability spells TROUBLE.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach You mean Henri Toivonen and his co-driver? If you actually knew anything about rally, you'd know it was the very same driver who lapped Estoril in 1:18 during testing.
It wasn't the Handling that caused the accident (and the handling was exceptional for a mid engined, AWD with an old AWD drivetrain. It was that the Group-B cars were getting to be too fast for the drivers to control.
Um...no, that description would define YOU, not me.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach Have fun in your poorly informed view little boy.
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach...
Why don't you just give up ?
You've been owned 10x over.
You're wrong, wrong, wrong and you'll be wrong tomorrow too.
5150jafo 7 months ago
Furthermore, in all likelihood, THIS Delta is more than likely PRIVATELY OWNED and therefore the owner cannot conceivably achieve the same boost pressures that the factory run S4's did, but I guess you wouldn't really know anything about that would you...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 im sorry i take it all back,ive just seen you are from canada.that explains why you know nothing about rallying.
btw go on wrc ford . com the wrc abu dhabi car is there. fantstic canadian haha haha.
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach know nothing on rallye? I wrote the book on rallye.....how many regional rally championships have YOU won? Bet I've won more....
darthjader08 8 months ago
@darthjader08 if there was video footage it would be on here and used when anyone laughs at this silly myth.it probibly comes from henri test driving a f1 car and posting a reasonable time.
im going to leave you to play with your x box now,while i go and drive a real rally car,subaru
markandrach 8 months ago
@markandrach Oh really? I would do it, but I have no fucking clue how to rip and upload a PAL dvd....well...that and I'd be ripping off APV....
Henri toivonen never drove an F1 car, it was during a testing session (with hill climb boost settings on the Turbo and supercharger) in an S4, no doubt about it whatsoever. Why don't you do a little bit of research? Well documented sites who NOBODY would refute contain the EXACT same information.
As for Subaru...well...
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach ...if you know anything about Subaru's then you know the Chassis code for the lightest Impreza Model ever....(i.e. the most effective for rally racing), what is it?
Personally, I'm all over the Subaru's, I love the team....BUT, they don't compare to the Group-B cars, Case in point: SCCA Group-N Class, a (homologated S1) Audi Sport Quattro trounced the competition 3 years running in SCCA pro-rally. The upside to the Subarus: newer and more effective drivetrain i.e. easier to control
darthjader08 8 months ago
@markandrach now please, stop pulling shit out of your ass fanboi. F1 cars pwn all, Group-B cars happen to have been blisteringly fast street legal cars that could sprint fast enough to hold their own against F1 cars (of their time) on short tracks from a standing start, whine and bitch all you like, it doesn't change the truth. Fuck I hate sore loser fanbois like you, the world would be better without you.
darthjader08 8 months ago
euro car best no onbe make best america fuck u
omid11 11 months ago
@omid11 American cars are built. European cars are engineered.
C63AMGestate 11 months ago