So, doing some research, I actually found that the reason F minor is so dark sounding in mean tone is that the F minor, and Bb minor chords approximate the ratio 7/6 in meantone. (the other keys approximate 6/5) This 7/6 ratio is called the septimal minor third, and is knows for it's dark quality. The equal tempered minor third is something a little bit closer to 19/16.
@kratanuva725 Thank you so much for this information! Fascinating! F to Ab is that nice minor but the problem is the very wide Ab to C that is very horrible. See "Bach D minor Toccata and Fugue - Meantone organ" for an interesting experiment in which the Fugue sounds very dismal which is quite interesting. . .
@latribe Do you think you could do Chaconne in F minor by Pachabel in mean tone? I can't find any good recordings of it in mean tone, and it's a wonderful piece!
@DJPsionix :-) That's the idea - but one tunes in and it becomes rather interesting. F minor was said to express the darkest grief . . . works rather well doesn't it!? :-) Now we know why!
this is brilliant, one of the most interesting keys for sure. it'd be great if f minor always sounded like that, you'd be able to spot it out immediately.
What a contrast! Meantone in an "off" key, rough and full of discord, as if someone had loosed an angry gorilla in amongst the pipes... then equal temperament, which always sounds exactly the same no matter what key you play in.
And jojoe, you should also keep in mind the temperament system was far from random. All of the systems deal with dealing with a precise problem in building scales from the overtone series. I could bore the people watching this video... or or you could message me and I could explain the "pythagorean comma" in further detail, having dabbled in the theory myself ;) But yes, "random temperament" as you say would be a terrible, terrible idea.
Krebs would never have played this piece in Mean Tone because the organs he played were tuned in a well tempered system... And yes there is tons and tons of documented evidence on this...
Yes - to some extent this experiment was intended to explore these possibilities and why in another video it's repeated in Kellner. Kirnberger is also good, just slightly stronger.
When Mark Shepherd played the Dorian Sonata we deliberately chose meantone
- to achieve that wonderful nasal tonality;
- so that the audience could really _hear_ the effect, which otherwise is more subtle;
- because the dorian mode should have equally spaced white notes
@Bachlives2 How did you get it? It took quite a lot of time until the more recent tempering systems touched the pipe organs of that period. Meantone persisted on many pipe organs even in the 18th century when harpsichords were tuned using well tempered systems. Retuning of harpsichord is a job taking a half hour. Retuning (not only occasional tuning adjustment) of a pipe organ is an expensive work, so more recent tunings were implemented mainly in the new instruments (but even not all of them).
@Bachlives2 But I agree, that this piece is not intended for 1/4-comma meantone. At least, it should be 1/6 or some milder modification of meantone. (even W. A. Mozart was still using meantone also, but -1/6 comma version)
I agree totally; the second version has no passion and sounds dull and flat. Our ears today are so out-of-touch with what music has the potential to be,
Well no actually. For the bulk of church music, especially on for instance the single manual organ of 1690 I tried in Genoa last week, the white keys do most of the work and make the harmony. In contrast the black keys supply the salt, pepper and spice.
The unification of tuning, is like to standardise all cheese to cheddar without permitting the taste of Gruyere, Emmental in the middle and Brie, Chevre and Gorgonzola at the extremes. It's like going back to watching B/W TV - without colour.
So, doing some research, I actually found that the reason F minor is so dark sounding in mean tone is that the F minor, and Bb minor chords approximate the ratio 7/6 in meantone. (the other keys approximate 6/5) This 7/6 ratio is called the septimal minor third, and is knows for it's dark quality. The equal tempered minor third is something a little bit closer to 19/16.
kratanuva725 8 months ago
@kratanuva725 Thank you so much for this information! Fascinating! F to Ab is that nice minor but the problem is the very wide Ab to C that is very horrible. See "Bach D minor Toccata and Fugue - Meantone organ" for an interesting experiment in which the Fugue sounds very dismal which is quite interesting. . .
latribe 8 months ago
@latribe Do you think you could do Chaconne in F minor by Pachabel in mean tone? I can't find any good recordings of it in mean tone, and it's a wonderful piece!
kratanuva725 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Need to marry you **busizz4me.info**
mayakanthineela 1 year ago
Sounds absolutley jarring in meantone....
I like it. =)
kratanuva725 1 year ago
oh man, I've heard good examples of meantone working really well... but this is not one of them!
DJPsionix 1 year ago
@DJPsionix :-) That's the idea - but one tunes in and it becomes rather interesting. F minor was said to express the darkest grief . . . works rather well doesn't it!? :-) Now we know why!
latribe 1 year ago
this is brilliant, one of the most interesting keys for sure. it'd be great if f minor always sounded like that, you'd be able to spot it out immediately.
SquallPwnLife 1 year ago
What a contrast! Meantone in an "off" key, rough and full of discord, as if someone had loosed an angry gorilla in amongst the pipes... then equal temperament, which always sounds exactly the same no matter what key you play in.
ccoraxfan 1 year ago
And jojoe, you should also keep in mind the temperament system was far from random. All of the systems deal with dealing with a precise problem in building scales from the overtone series. I could bore the people watching this video... or or you could message me and I could explain the "pythagorean comma" in further detail, having dabbled in the theory myself ;) But yes, "random temperament" as you say would be a terrible, terrible idea.
TheCoopshow 2 years ago
@TheCoopshow Actually, meantone typicaly uses fractions of the syntonic comma, not pythagorean.
kratanuva725 1 year ago
LOL And now for something completely different...
HuggumsMcgehee 2 years ago
Krebs would never have played this piece in Mean Tone because the organs he played were tuned in a well tempered system... And yes there is tons and tons of documented evidence on this...
Bachlives2 2 years ago
Yes - to some extent this experiment was intended to explore these possibilities and why in another video it's repeated in Kellner. Kirnberger is also good, just slightly stronger.
When Mark Shepherd played the Dorian Sonata we deliberately chose meantone
- to achieve that wonderful nasal tonality;
- so that the audience could really _hear_ the effect, which otherwise is more subtle;
- because the dorian mode should have equally spaced white notes
- because Bach wrote deliberate discords
latribe 2 years ago
@Bachlives2 How did you get it? It took quite a lot of time until the more recent tempering systems touched the pipe organs of that period. Meantone persisted on many pipe organs even in the 18th century when harpsichords were tuned using well tempered systems. Retuning of harpsichord is a job taking a half hour. Retuning (not only occasional tuning adjustment) of a pipe organ is an expensive work, so more recent tunings were implemented mainly in the new instruments (but even not all of them).
Nuk1eus 5 months ago
@Bachlives2 But I agree, that this piece is not intended for 1/4-comma meantone. At least, it should be 1/6 or some milder modification of meantone. (even W. A. Mozart was still using meantone also, but -1/6 comma version)
Nuk1eus 5 months ago
It lost it's character when he played it in equal temperament
7domo7 2 years ago 7
I agree totally; the second version has no passion and sounds dull and flat. Our ears today are so out-of-touch with what music has the potential to be,
MASA92190 2 years ago
Yeh@ everyone should tune their instruments at random temperaments and then everyone play together...
it will sound so much... better.... and ...
passionate...?
fail
jojoereturns 2 years ago
Well no actually. For the bulk of church music, especially on for instance the single manual organ of 1690 I tried in Genoa last week, the white keys do most of the work and make the harmony. In contrast the black keys supply the salt, pepper and spice.
The unification of tuning, is like to standardise all cheese to cheddar without permitting the taste of Gruyere, Emmental in the middle and Brie, Chevre and Gorgonzola at the extremes. It's like going back to watching B/W TV - without colour.
latribe 2 years ago
LOL you are funny! : )
HiFiMachine 2 years ago
The meantone version is definitely more abrasive, but the equal temperament version afterwards sounded bland.
HuggumsMcgehee 2 years ago
Unless you have absolute pitch, in which case it sounds great both times. :)
jennythemusicmaker 2 years ago
Comment removed
ajcherry 3 years ago