Should Disabled Kids Be Educated With Non-Disabled Kids?

[Popanator2010]

Retards should be separated from non-retards. The retards are at best a nuisance to the normal kids and at worst they are dangerous animals.

[danielgmcnulty]

I'm not sure I understand why you're trying to put people into even smaller boxes and categories than they might already be in. You have some extremely valid points, but separating people with disabilities is not an answer and the implication that a non-disabled peer cannot be "real" friends with a disabled child isn't a fair observation.

[gorramdoll]

@danielgmcnulty I'm probably more educated on these issues than I was when I made this video and I wouldn't say I am anti-inclusion now. But while you're right that segregation isn't an answer to the problem of discrimination against PWDs, decisions about education should be made to benefit individual kids and not on principle.

[gorramdoll]

@gorramdoll Theoretically a disabled person can be friends with a non-disabled person. I have some myself. But I don't think disabled/non-disabled friendships should be valued above disabled/disabled friendships, which are easier to form and more important.

[danielgmcnulty]

@gorramdoll I couldn't agree more!

[gorramdoll]

@danielgmcnulty I guess my concern is that most people making decisions for disabled kids are not disabled themselves, and they don't seem to think about issues like power dynamics, developing a positive disabled identity, and having friends who share your experiences and history. These are all things that I would worry about with regard to a kid who is "mainstreamed."

[danielgmcnulty]

@gorramdoll These are very valid points and ones that I agree with. But, don't put me in that box either! I'm a non-disabled person and I help to make a lot of decisions for people who do have disabilities. I've dedicated my professional life to it. I don't think it's fair to assume that I am unable to make appropriate decisions just because I don't have a disability myself. It's no different than telling someone with a dis. that they can't make appropriate decisions for people w/out dis :)

[doulasc]

I had a learning disability and you are saying I should not be with regular

people? I am not severly LD or retarded. Now days those with just a LD

are in regular class and go to a resource room and get tutoring so they

can stay in mainstream class.The help was not there in my time and

thats why I fell through the cracks.

[gorramdoll]

@doulasc well, I have a developmental disability and I was mainly thinking about how these issues affect people with DDs.

[doulasc]

I beleive in least restrictive environment if possible.I had a learning disability and there was no help in my time.I was reading at 6th grade level at 18. People like me have the same rights as others in society.

[DChatc]

Frankly, I think the whole institution of public educational is worthless anyway.

Schools are simply there for bureaucrats to extort money and raise the next generation of cattle.

You want to learn anything just visit a library, or become homeschooled.

Besides, socialization is overatted, it's just pandering to animals, I have only a handful of friends and that is really all I need.

[DChatc]

Hmmm, I wonder what... Certainly, it's nothing they would pick up in the schoolyard?

[FuckTheEntireSociety]

I THINK THE BETTER QUESTION IS: CAN NORMAL PEOPLE BE ACCEPTED AS GOOD HUMAN PEOPLE? ME PERSONALLY I THINK THEY DON'T DESERVED TO BE "GOOD HUMANS". THEY END UP BEATING UP AND KILLING THE WEAK AND DEFENSELESS, THEY EVEN MAKE DISPARAGING REMARKS ABOUT HOW THE WAY THE LOOK, WALK, OR TALK AND THE SOCIETY (the normal people) THINKS IS OKAY TO PUT DOWN ANYTHING THAT IS NOT IN THE USUAL. IS THIS A "GOOD HUMAN THING" OR "UNGOOD HUMAN THING"?

[dietcokewithcherry]

Generally speaking, I'd say that given that a disabled person has the intellectual capacity to be educated amongst 'normal' kids, it should be their own choice as to whether or not they do it. In their younger years they can't make that choice for themselves and it often comes down to the parents, which is probably in issue, because parents aren't always fit to make that decision.

It does depend on someone's personality though. Some kids will benefit from normal education and others are better

[dietcokewithcherry]

off in a certain form of special needs education. It's impossible to say 'all disabled kids should be in regular education' or 'all disabled kids should be in special education', because it depends on the individual and that needs to be respected. A friend of mine with PDD-NOS was in normal education until he was twelve and has learnt a lot from being around 'normal' children and from being accepted by them. I am friends with two of the people he then went to school with as well,

[dietcokewithcherry]

and they have benefited from it a lot, too, as they both feel it has taught them a lot about human beings and human differences in general. It's a good thing for 'normal' children to be exposed to other people and vice versa. However, I'll repeat that it depends on the individual, and most governments need to come up with a better system to assess what form of education suits a person best.

I love your idea though, for all the reasons you mentioned, and for the fact that ASD children could

[dietcokewithcherry]

learn some vital skills just by helping a physically disabled person with minor things.

I had something else to say but I can't remember.

Only a few days ago my mum and I were talking about my experience in regular schools and how it has affected the rest of my educational life as well as working life; it was pretty horrific. I don't remember any of the people I went to school with, it was almost like they were never there. They were just pieces in my own little game of chess. None of my

[dietcokewithcherry]

teachers were ever aware of my exceedingly high intelligence level, so I was always really bored and no one has ever taught me how to *learn*, because everything just came naturally to me. I attended a school for higher secondary education (the dutch educational system is complicated, heh) which is basically for people with above-average intelligence, but I never really had to make an effort there either. I never did anyway. I didn't even study for my final exams, I just graduated without

[dietcokewithcherry]

doing anything.

To this day, I can't be taught. I can only learn if I teach myself to do things, which works well for me half the time but does mean my knowledge is limited to what I personally think I need to know. When I get bored I choose a new thing for me to learn. I taught myself English and French this way, guitar and piano, every factual thing there is to know about autism, et cetera.

[dietcokewithcherry]

I've been working with mentally disabled people for years and it doesn't make me feel like a good person but it does make me happy in ways I can't even describe, partly because I'm really good and it and for that it makes me feel accomplished, but also because they're such expressive people and because they're so genuinely honest and sincere.

This summer I am working with physically disabled adults until I move country next month, and it's teaching me a lot about my own way of approaching the

[dietcokewithcherry]

people I work with, because they have average intelligence levels and can express themselves and give me feedback. I quite love it. Most of them were in regular education all their life and they are all glad for it. It really does depend on the individual. Generalisation is one of the most dangerous concepts currently threatening humanity,and I honestly hope we can overcome it within the next fifty years, because it's actually ruining lives at this point.

[dietcokewithcherry]

It seems I always write essays when responding to your videos, haha. And I get too caught up in it and start stimming and typing really quickly, and then I type things incorrectly because my brain is moving faster than my hands, sorry about that. :[

[gorramdoll]

that's super adorable! I'm sort of afraid to work with people who are just physically disabled because I have a really simple way of talking, and I'd be afraid that they would think I thought they were mentally disabled, and be offended. I'm pretty much always worried about offending everyone except people with mental and social disabilities so I feel like they'd be the most stress-free people to work with. how old are you?

[dietcokewithcherry]

Trust me, I was terrified when I started, because I can come across as really patronising without meaning to, much like you I suppose. The clients all really love me though so I'm glad I took the job. Having empathy doesn't come naturally to me at all so I find myself having to force it, and paired with my perfectionism I like, come across as the inventor of empathy, pretty much; it works well in social care jobs.

I am twenty two but I probably look and act like a 16 year old. Seriously.

[gorramdoll]

That's really funny (and cool) that they think you seem super empathetic because you're working so hard. That stuff can sometimes happen to me, because I think regular people just assume that they're right all the time in social situations, but I never do. It makes me pretty bad at ABA because I'm like "um...could you touch your ears, please?" but I think it has made some MR adults like me because they feel respected by me.

I'm really tired of people asking what grade I'm in. I just say 15th.

[gorramdoll]

that's interesting. in your regular schools were they lecture classes or what were they like? (aren't schools in Europe way more lecture-based?) maybe they just weren't teaching you in a way that related well to your learning style and that's why you are better at teaching yourself things because you know how to do it. I mean, I've rarely learned very much in lecture classes and I don't think it's anyone's fault, I'm just bad at it.

[dietcokewithcherry]

I've no clue what it's like in most other european countries, but I wouldn't say schools are lecture-based in the netherlands at all. Far from it, even. They pretty much had a list of things you had to learn each week and guided you through it. I just barely had to learn any of it; calculus, dutch, blabla, I just knew all of it. Working ahead was a definite no-no. I finished my tasks by tuesday and had to spend the rest of the week drawing, basically. xD

[gorramdoll]

wow, that's really interesting, that you could do a whole week's worth at once. It sounds kind of nice actually, except they didn't give you appropriate work. I guess it's kind of ridiculous/racist for me to make assumptions about ALL OF EUROPE. I'm just about to study abroad in Scotland and all of the materials they send are like "the UK is NOT LIKE AMERICA. YOU DO NOT GET HANDHOLDING AND CLASS DISCUSSIONS." (gulp)

[gorramdoll]

I didn't actually have too bad a time at school until I was in middle school. I think that's by far the worst time. But yeah, I do think it should be the individual, I mean if an ASD kid for example is having a really good time in regular school then of course that's great. I just really resent the idea that having a bad time is good for a kid and should be tolerated.

where did he go when he was twelve? and how did they decide to move him?

[dietcokewithcherry]

I know what you mean. It seems as though some people think that a kid having a bad time means the child is just 'learning'. So, were you in regular education? or what? I'd think that you were but I don't want to make false assumptions.

He had learning difficulties so regular secondary education didn't really suit him. In primary/elementary school this wasn't a problem because there's enough room for individuality.. in some schools.

[gorramdoll]

yeah, I was in regular. or to be specific, I was in education that wasn't for disabled kids, not necessarily regular schools. Montessori from 2-9 (which was fun mostly, but I was allowed to really slide into bad behaviors and being really bad at certain subjects, just because of the way Montessori works), regular public school from 9-14 (elementary school was okay socially and weird but not awful academically, middle school was hell as I mentioned), and then a really small private school where

[gorramdoll]

a lot of kids had learning disabilities (which was really good for me academically because I learned about how to ask for help and stuff, and sort of lonely/depressing socially, but by then it was because of Homo Issues rather than the other stuff).

Yeah, I don't want to make such big generalizations about what kids are like, but kids under 12 do seem much nicer and easier to me. I mean, I didn't have much trouble with them, I remember thinking when I was 13 "wow, it's weird that this girl is

[gorramdoll]

being so awful to me, because we were friendly when we were 10." It might be good for an ASD kid to be around other kids when they're younger, just not in the hellish period.

[snocrsh]

Wow, thanks for this video. I'm going to be a first year special educator this year so your insights are really valuable to me. Comparing inclusion to sending a student to war is an especially powerful image. I never thought about it that way.

[gorramdoll]

oh cool! what kind of kids are you going to work with?

That's probably a really melodramatic thing for me to say. And besides, it's probably that way for ASD kids more than it is for kids with any other disability, so take that comparison with a grain of salt I guess. I just take issue with the idea that mainstreaming prepares you for the real world.