The Biblical Mary and Catholic Tradition (60)

[DreamsofMajesty]

scribd (dot) com/nb812



[glizag]

How to make a Plastercast for religious purposes.

First get some modelling plaster add water stir and mould it into a human figure

Subject it to intense heat and allow to harden

Now paint it with modelling paint & allow to dry

Move it to a grotto or church & mount it on a pedestal get it blessed by a priest

Garnish it with flowers & light candles to it

Now encourage people to come & pray to it & petition it

Now you have another mediator to help you

Surely this is not Idolatry ? OR IS IT ?

[2shane]

I am Gay and Christian...

For God - all things are possible...

And I am NOW pregnant to my Gay husband and God - just like when God, Mary and the Angel had their gang bang behind her husbands back.

So take that you unbelievers.

Praise Jeesers.

[catholicforlife]

The catholic church teaches one solid truth about Christ.

It is so solid that it has lasted 200 years and those who are faithful to the church's teachings do none of what you are describing.

If you want to see that these claims do nothing to change what we really teach as catholics, read a catholic website and see what we actually teach.

[tentmaker2]

Luke 11:27,28 "While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.' But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

[catholicforlife]

Does this mean that Mary is not blessed?

1) All generations shall call me blessed Lk 1, 48

2) Mary raised Jesus Christ from the womb and through His life

3) She stood by Him at the cross

$) She was given teh holy Spirit before anyone else Lk 1, 35

She is definately blessed

[tentmaker2]

Mary was as blessed as any one of God's children who heard His word and observed it obediently. Period. The veneration of Mary is unscriptural, as is most all of the dogmas regarding her.

[catholicforlife]

Well calling her blessed is scriptural. Like I mentioned about Lk 1, 48.

I feel no worries about calling Mary blessed.

Anyways to me, Jesus says to honor your father and mother.

and I really want to follow Jesus

[tentmaker2]

Also, Lk 1:35 does not say that she was "given" the Holy Spirit. It says "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you", which is obviously the reference to the moment when Jesus would enter her womb. Not like the receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as described in Acts. She was definately 'greatly blest'.

[catholicforlife]

Amen brother. She was greatly blessed.

I have thought about this a bit. I also heard about this very thing today in church:

Mary was made into the greatest temple of God because within Her dwelt Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, and God Himself.

With that the holy Spirit overshadowed Her. It is something I have been planned to research.

I can't find any other place in scripture wher the holy Spirit overshadowed someone. I think it is unique.

[richiedel]

This is a parallel to the Old Testament, of which Luke makes many in reference to Mary, in which the shekinah, God's presence, would descend upon and 'overshadow' Solomon's temple in the form of a cloud (1 Kg 8:10). The angel uses the same language in reference to how the Spirit would come upon and Mary, and the power of the most high through the Spirit would conceive Jesus within her (cf. Mt 1:18, 20).

[richiedel]

Mary's words of acceptance of God's will very much resembles the prayer of the early Church who prayed for and received the Holy Spirit and among whom Mary was present (Acts 1:14, 2:1-3). Christ is conceived by the power of the Spirit after Mary's acceptance (if God could just force himself on her without her consent, how can we be said to 'resist' the Spirit? [cf. Acts 7:51]), as the Church is conceived by the Holy Spirit, which event was also accompanied by Mary's prayer.

[tentmaker2]

#2

hide the obvious occultism, idolatry and worship of Mary. In order to make converts, Rome has absorbed the paganism peculiar to each culture and dressed it in Christian terminology. For example, in Brazil, Roman Catholicism is mixed with spiritism; in India, with Hinduism; in Haiti, with voodoo; etc. Haiti is said to be 85 percent Roman Catholic and 110 percent Voodoun. Every voodoo ceremony begins with prayers to Catholic saints. ~~The wolf wears sheep's clothing.

[tentmaker2]

#1

How does a wolf walk among the sheep?

The open paganism and idolatry involved in Roman Catholicism is a shock to American visitors to Spain, Italy, Central and South America. In the United States, Catholicism hides behind a Christian mask and even claims to be evangelical. There is no such pretense in Catholic countries, where Rome long persecuted and killed evangelicals and still vigorously opposes them. In such countries there is no attempt to ..

cont'd

[tentmaker2]

An outstanding message! May God touch the heart of each listener with the truth Brother Richard so wonderfully shares.

[richiedel]

The translation "Full of Grace" is more accurate than "highly favored daughter" (Lk 1:28) Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. In fact it extended over the whole of her life,from conception onward.

[richiedel]

Mary is grouped with "man". Christ indeed is the one mediator between God and man, so Mary is not seen in the light of Catholic teaching to take his place. Angels hear our prayers and offer them to God, even if they are not directed to them (Rev 5:8) And Paul exhorted others often to pray for him. Catholics are doing no more when asking for Mary's prayers.

[tentmaker2]

Part 2:

Hebrews 4:13-16 says, "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[richiedel]

Please explain for me how this may or may not refute my argument above.

[tentmaker2]

There are no "angels" mentioned in Rev 5:8, and nothing indicates that the elders and four creatures referenced "hear and offer prayers to God" on behalf of the saints. They are "holding (bowls) vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Cross reference this with the prayer of David in Psalm 141:2..."May my prayer be counted as incense before You:" David doesn't say, 'may the Angels hear my prayer and offer it to you on my behalf'.

[richiedel]

You're right - no angels in 5:8, there are in 8:4-5, however, and the concept is the same in both. Even if the prayers mentioned aren't offered to the elders or the angels directly, it still reinforces that they are aware of them and serve an intercessory role in offering them to God on our behalf. "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21)

[richiedel]

See also Ps. 148:1-2: "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise the Lord, all his angels, praise him all his host!" Now, how are our prayer like that of incense before God (Ps 141:2) and the angels offering our prayers on our behalf (Rev. 8:3-4) mutually exclusive? You know, I like to see myself as a "both/and" type of guy, not an "either/or" type.

[catholicforlife]

Well in Heaven, I believe that we can really speak to the Lord about anything. We can even tell Him about our loved ones who are still on earth. Why not after all?

Will God not listen to my grandmother if she asks Him to bless me here on earth?

I bet He will listen to her...

[tentmaker2]

If you Grandmother was a Christian when she died, I'm sure she is with the Lord now. If she was a practicing Catholic, then she is not. Catholicism teaches a different way of salvation than the one taught in the Bible.

And, if your Grandmother was a Christian and is with the Lord. There is no evidence in the Bible to support the idea that anyone there, except Christ, intercedes on our behalf.

[richiedel]

Jesus told Mary of John "Behold, your son" and to John "Behold, your Mother" (Jn 19:26-27) Mary is the woman in Revelation who gives birth to the "male who is to rule the nations"; and "those who bear testimony to Jesus" are called "the rest of her offspring"(Rev 12:5,17) In imitation of Christ, Catholics respond to the command "honor your father and your mother", Mary being our spiritual mother. If she's good enough for Jesus, she's good enough for you.

[tentmaker2]

Where in the Word of God are we told specifically that Mary is our "spritual mother", and please don't bother reciting Catholic dogma and doctrines. I'm reading your posts and you are really reaching to try to validate your beliefs in Mary with any scripture.

[tentmaker2]

Part 2;

Yes, Mary gave birth to Jesus, but it was the fulfillment of a greater prophetic picture. You can't pluck a verse out and conform it to the image of your machinations! Here is Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (King James)

[richiedel]

Though I agree that Israel would rightly find a place in any scriptural "larger prophetic picture" how do you assume that Mary would find a place in such? She is noted by Scripture itself as being a key player in such a "prophetic picture": "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be Emmanuel" Mt:1:23. Oh, but suddenly when we get to the woman in Revealation she can't by any means be referenced to as Mary? Right...

[richiedel]

Correction. The above post should read: "How do you assume that Mary WOULDN'T find a place in such? She is noted in Scripture itself as being a key player in such a "prophetic picture": "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and hiw name shall be Emmanuel" Mt. 1:23. Oh, but suddenly when we get to the woman in Revelation, she can't be any means be referenced to as Mary? Right...

[tentmaker2]

Part 1:

You wrote: "Mary is the woman in Revelation who gives birth to the "male who is to rule the nations"; and "those who bear testimony to Jesus" are called "the rest of her offspring"(Rev 12:5,17)" NO she's not! How deceptive of you! Anybody with any sense at all can tell by the context of the entire chapter that the writer is referring to the Nation of Israel, and not Mary specifically. It was through Israel, from Jesse's linage, that it was prophesied Christ would come.

[richiedel]

Explain to me why exactly that the woman is to be interpreted exclusively as Israel or that this is to be part of a larger "prophetic picutre" both of which are not explicitly stated in Scripture. You seem rather intent on asking me to show where all of my own deductions are supported explicitly by scripture. You also make ad hominen attacks to undermine my argument. Now, who's being decpetive?

[richiedel]

There are also the concepts of the New and Old Israel. Christ came from the Old Israel, but established the New Israel of which both Jews and Gentiles may be a part. If Christ descends from the Old Israel but establishes the New, and Chistians are members of the New Israel, how are both Christ and the woman's offspring children of the same mother? The woman is the Old Israel on one hand and the New Israel on the other.

[richiedel]

Interpreting the woman as both the Old and the New Israel works for me, as the New has it's foundations in Christ, who himself has his foundations in the Old Israel. But to acknowledge this also concedes that we must be open to attaching more than one, exclusive interpretation to the woman. And it would therefore make no sense to get hung up on insisting that the woman is Israel and only Israel, without being open to the interpreation that she could also be Mary, who really gave birth to Christ.

[richiedel]

It's a long shot to say that Christ was solely asking John to take care of his mother by telling him "behold your mother" and to Mary "behold your son". Considering the faithfulness of the disciples to Christ after he died, which Christ would know of, do you think Christ would have had to ask one of them to make sure his mother's temporal needs are taken care of while he's suffering and dying on the cross?

[richiedel]

To interpret that Christ was entrusting to his discples a spiritual mother-child relationship with Mary makes a bit more sense to me. If she's good enough for Jesus, she's good enough for you.

[tentmaker2]

Part 3:

Here it is in the New American Standard version: "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

[richiedel]

There are many parllels between the ark and Mary. The Holy Spirit overshadowed the ark as he did Mary to conceive Jesus (Ex 40:34, Lk 1:45) David said, "Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?" as Elizabeth said, "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (1 Sam 6:9, Lk 1:43) David leapt for joy when tje was brought into Jerusalem (2 Sam 6:14-16) John the Baptist leapt for joy in Elizabeth's womb when Mary came into her presence (Lk 1:44)

[richiedel]

Other parallels between the ark and Mary: Upon going to bring up the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, David "arose and went"; Mary "arose and went" to visit Elizabeth (2 Sam 6:2, Lk 1:39). "The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom three months" (2 Sam 6:11) and Mary "remained with" Elizabeth "about three months" (1 Lk 1:56). David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam 6:9) and Elizabeth said "Who am I thta the mother of the Lord should come to me?" (Lk 1:45)

[richiedel]

Mary is the woman foretold in Gen 3:15 whose seed would crush the serpent's head. Her contribution to this action is foretold by Old Testament figures. Jael drove a peg through the head of Sisera and was called "blessed of women"(Judg 5:24) Judith cut off Holofernes' head and was called "blessed by the Most High above all women" (Jud 13:18) Overcome by the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth told Mary "blessed are you among women"(Lk 1:24)