LOL way to determine people with knowledges in physics bending your knee while jumping change your trajectory, your momentum and your balance in mid air it leads to losing hang time try again.
@thesniper321 He jumps straight up then bends his knee so how does that change the trajectory? If anything bending your knees give you more surface area and DECREASES your hang time. Try again.
and since you wanna talk big explain me what means a different hang time in term of momentum and trajectory are they the same as if you have more hangtime?
DUMBASS wanna talk big when he can't SHUT THE FUCK UP
One day I'm gonna invent a plate that weighs you and then measures your downward force upon jumping, then calculates how high you jump, rather than measuring how long you're in the air.
Hopefully it'll shut up some of these whiners. Good jump, your legs didn't look bent to me and very impressive jump nonetheless
@hash1212121212 it's hard to jump against a wall. i suggest buying or making a vertec. cause you land pass the wall you'll either injure yourself or came awkward jump because of forward output.
The man to the right is Mike Boyle, otherwise known as the who's who of trainers in the nation...not to mention the vertical jump mat is measuring the power produced from the testee, not hangtime like you all seem to think. To the ones who are trying to compare where is feet are to elsewhere in the screenshot...if the camera is held at a higher angle to the testee its impossible to gauge a height from video.
@theunlimitedtraining I hope your not a trainer because you lack even simple logic. So the mat only measures power output? That means it would measure a vertical jump for a heavy squat. That makes no sense, obviously different amounts of power would be required to send a 300 vs a 100 pound person airborne, the mat measures hang time.
Plyometrics does not train hyperplasia. In fact, it isn't body building or any mass - strength training. The key to plyometrics is to induce proper reversal of forces in movement and amortization and coordination. As these things are constant all you've told me = pseudo.
@SuperPussyFpietros If you go over to pubmed and search for hyperplasia and humans you will find the studies I am referencing. Youtube does not allow for me to put those links in here, and if you are not even willing to look than you are being close-minded. You appear to be missing some key data regarding the physiological response of muscles to stress in different environments. I'm not saying hypertrophy of 2x isn't important, I am saying that it is not the only thing to train.
@slizzardman The only thing to train is the size of the muscles. Even that has limits if you're not taking steroids, you'll not get pass what's given naturally by your genes. It is used commonly by DB's and high strength performers. You're not increasing the weight or rep, you're not getting bigger. If you also increase the rep for 1- 10 IN the same WEIGHT, you've already gotten bigger.
To contrast more, if you have 300's then increase it to 360 while gaining mass, horse power increase!
Hyperplasia cannot be trained. It is combining, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for mass and myofibrall hypertrophy for strength which to minimize the time application of force thus power( f/t). The force again will also depend on the mass side of the equation. You'll never get as quick just by neurological gains than the gifted people eg Nate Robinson who already dunks at 14. These things are constant. Bigger muscles are stronger muscles.
@SuperPussyFpietros That would help for sure, but you will also get a huge vert increase with proper Achilles tendon conditioning! I like head measured vert the best, personally, everything else is always a little fuzzy. Especially the hang time mat.
@slizzardman length of Achilles is not a trainable quality. You only train the it's flexibility. Longer Achilles = better plyometric capacity aka length of the limbs/ lower leg.
Let's say you have 30 inches from virtual stand jump. When at 3 step approach, it then becomes 36 inches. The 6 additional inches probably won't grow much or actually get less once your raw strength increases.
@SuperPussyFpietros I'm definitely not arguing that you can lengthen the Achilles tendon, but you can thicken it which will allow it to be more responsive to higher forces and as you've said you can work on the flexibility of the tendon. The more stretch it can handle the better!
You can also train the calf musculature to produce more force, allowing a stronger isometric contraction as the tendon stretches, which in turn would increase the height of your rebound. I don't know by how much.
@slizzardman Do your research. You're too straw man. Calf helps transfer force from the quads and posterior which still is glute or quad dominant. If you jump a lot, you've already trained the calf. Isometric contraction involves only on type of static coordination conditioning eg static squat, pushing a wall then holding it for certain amount of time. That's isometrics. It helps gain coordination or smooth exertion of force following a given exercise or movement.
@SuperPussyFpietros I have done my research, you are misunderstanding me. Muscles do not concentrically or eccentrically flex very much during the stretch reflex. Most of the movement is from the tendon stretching and then contracting. The muscles MUST maintain an isometric contraction during that fraction of a second. If they do not they will lengthen and reduce the elastic energy from the rebound through shock absorption.
Quads, by the way, are anterior chain. Just so you know.
"Most of the movement is from the tendon stretching"
Most force would come from rfd motors(muscles). Muscle along with the bones generates movement or force. Bigger mass motor(muscle) transfers immediately to any other activities.
Muscles also lengthen when involving a plyometric movement called amortizarion.
Like I said again, isometric contraction only refers to isometrics which is mere coordination.
@SuperPussyFpietros Amortization is just the name we call the ground impact phase of a plyometric movement. The eccentric lengthening is allowing forces to be reduced to what the body can safely handle in an isometric state, because the full force of impact is more than the body can handle. I'm not saying that amortization is supposed to be isometric, but I AM saying that the stronger your tendon is the more force your muscles can exert during amortization.
With the muscle, ligament, and tendon structures able to handle more applied force safely they can minimize the eccentric phase. This is crucial to power development. The faster the amortization, or "turnaround" of force, takes place the more force gets exerted into the ground, and the more force there is going into the ground the faster and higher you shoot back up.
The amount of applied force will be directly impacted by the muscle's ability to stop the eccentric lengthening, hold isometrically as the tendon starts to release the energy from its stretch, and as the tension in the tendon starts to drop shift into a concentric contraction as fast as possible to keep the acceleration as high as possible through the rest of amortization.
I apologize for my initial explanation, as it wasn't entirely accurate. The actual change in direction happens at the moment forces have been reduced to the point where the muscles can handle them isometrically. We can all handle more force isometrically than we can concentrically. That's pretty basic. As force drops to the point where concentric contraction is possible it happens. I was referring to the actual moment of direction change, and was not clear about that.
So while you're doing the depth drop, you stand onn a box greater than your vert eg 35 inches whiles your original is 22 - 5 inches standing. The forces you drop down (35 ") =/= the forces you would receive landing on your jump (22"). So the focus is to just absorb the force, landing very silently as possible via the motor as well in it's protection of the joints.
@SuperPussyFpietros Yes. And the heel should never touch the ground. If it does, the body can't handle the forces being expressed and will be getting trained to be inefficient. It is better to keep jumping off the same height block and take less time and less movement to absorb the force of landing than it is to raise the block to the point where you are unable to properly absorb force.
@SuperPussyFpietros I think that we just have some kind of communication problem. The body is absolutely able to handle an incredible amount of force, but if you look at the math required to compute the force of impact you will see that the distance spent absorbing the impact directly and linearly changes the actual force. If I drop from 48" for example and use 12 inches of leg bend to absorb the landing my impact force will be exactly half of what it would be if I used 6 inches of leg bend.
Consider this: I weigh 100kg. If I drop from 1m and use 20cm of leg bend my muscles absorb 1175 lbs. If I drop 1m and use 10cm of leg bend my muscles absorb 2350lbs. If I drop from 2m and use 20cm of leg bend my muscles still absorb 2350 lbs. Landing bend determines the amount of force you absorb, especially in the lower leg. For the purpose of conditioning the stretch reflex it is actually better to reduce bending while keeping the heel from touching than it is to increase altitude.
@slizzardman meter falls are not necessary. The term used is mere inches. dropping off 2 meter is too much and cause injury to the legs. The knee bent doesn't reduce that force. It is the momentum that causes forces to disintegrate. If you land and bend knees a lot then, it means that the force will travel kinetically on some parts of the body and not concentrate on prime muscles that suppose to get it. The forces should still be doubled on 2 m when it comes to 1
@slizzardman When doing depth drops you should not allow the knees to bend past 90 degree. Regardless of your dropping form, a 48" box is far more. I recommend 34 for starters. 42 to equal force you would receive in twice body weight squat.
@SuperPussyFpietros Your math has no basis in reality. I posted numbers of what I absorb from just a 1m drop and it is around 8x bodyweight. Your understanding of the physics going into the drop isn't complete enough. Force applied on the muscles is affected by the distance traveled after impact as much as it is affected by height. You can drop from higher and get less impact if you bend enough. This has been demonstrated on force plates.
Your recommendation for beginners is also far too high.
@slizzardman 8x own weight is based on kinetic energy. You lift a full squat, you're exerting more force than the weight with your body. beginners could do depending on their vertical. If their vert is 25, they could already absorb even 40 inches drops but I put it at 34. Then you've provide no evidence of training hyper plasia through swimming and plyo
@SuperPussyFpietros I actually told you exactly where the information is. PubMed. Search for that on google, and it will come right up. Then search for "skeletal muscle hyperplasia" or just search for "swimmer hyperplasia" on google.
You will notice in the research that stretch overload is the most powerful inducer of hyperplasia. That is what plyometrics are, stretch overload. They are simply a higher force, lower duration version of static stretch overload.
Force is force. It doesn't matter what generated the force. Being able to absorb a drop and having the prerequisite structure in place to properly absorb drops from a given height with perfect form (very little knee bend and heels not touching ground ever, with upright torso and very little torso bend) without injuries building up over time are two completely different things. The only "sure" measurement for a drop is the height of a person's current vert for a beginner, and sometimes not that.
@slizzardman The dosage would be 10, 18 seconds per rep. This is done by slowly getting back up to position and preparing for quality silent drop. Gymnasts jumps high as well. They land like cats and extreme reaction no one get. But if you look at these girl's legs they are pretty bulk. Bulk don't hurt vert.
So again this is only done at 1.5 x ratio or 2 to even benefit. frequency can be limited to 1 a week. You don't need that much plyo!
@slizzardman plyometrics work by strengthening the rfd motors in other words still transferred via raw strength or purely mass equation of force which is squats. The Achilles tendon again don't lengthen with these exercises as you won't grow them.
@SuperPussyFpietros There's no such thing as an RFD motor, rate of force development is a neural factor. The more coordinated the motor units are and the more action potentials reach the motor units per second (rate coding) the faster rate of force development can be. Maximal tension isometrics for short durations can help train this ability at key points in the range of motion. Starting strength work also helps. There are many factors in rate of force development and nearly all are trainable.
@slizzardan As I said, you can train your speed to some degree considering what you've said before: "trainable to SOME degree". Speed of the movement, velocity, coordination, given all of them is constant bigger muscles are always stronger and transfers to any other activities. Rate force D motors again has variation in slightly red(slow) or slightly(white) fast THEN you can convert alter the fibers via 45% which is making more red or more white changing a fiber type.
@SuperPussyFpietros You are still overlooking the fact that muscle contraction speed is determined by A) energy source and B) nervous system.
The bigger is stronger thing is a half-truth, because the methods used to gain muscle size beyond a certain point start to directly train slower contraction speed. Technically speaking, the most important variable is the number of motor units, not their size.
@slizzardman Number of motor units is not trainable quality. You only get insignificant amount of hyperplasia or splitting of cell. Size again doesn't make the cell contraction time degrade. It will produce more force ones bigger. Suppose 50 fast twitch fibers are twice as big as a slow twitch. It would require 100 slow twitch to equal the force contraction firing at the same time.
@SuperPussyFpietros Hyperplasia contributes new cells, which each have individual innervation. You are wrong about insignificant hyperplasia effects, there have been biopses on a number of athletes from different sports that suggest there can be enormous levels of hyperplasia, more than enough to make a massive difference in potential power. The size of the muscle cell only matters when the size comes from contractile proteins. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy does not increase strength.
You can search for that info on pubmed. The abstracts are free and will tell you quite a lot.
The single most important part of increasing power is decreasing the time total recruitment takes. After that the most important parts are, in my opinion, fairly evenly split between myofibrillar hypertrophy and hyperplasia. Maximizing both without negatively impacting total recruitment time is the ultimate goal for true peak performance.
slizzardmad The muscles increase size due to adding and tagging the proteins. There is a limit to how much you can gain with years of proper training and diet of a person not taking steroids. 5 - 10 pounds of muscle adds 100 plus pounds on squat depending on genetics. Hyperplasia again is not trainable. Maybe there's relatively few short instances of this to some people who have genetic probability to hyperplasia. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy increases strength in body builders in 20 rep max
@SuperPussyFpietros I'm not claiming that muscle mass added as a result of strength training won't help, because it will, but each muscle fiber has a limit beyond which they do not like to grow, regardless of training. Hyperplasia provides our bodies with new fibers and this allows for more growth. Muscular hyperplasia has been documented in a number of animals and our muscle cells are not significantly different from theirs. There is also significant biopsy evidence in humans.
The reason we can't have 100% proof is that the only way to prove hyperplasia is physical removal of the entire muscle to digest the connective tissue with nitric acid and then count the individual fibers. Totally unethical in human research, and therefore impossible to prove empirically in humans. However, there have been cross-sectional biopses done on everyone from swimmers to bodybuilders to sprinters, and there appear to be varying degrees(15% to 100%+) of hyperplasia in all of them.
@slizzardman It is true that even within the same sports different degrees of evidence for hyperplasia have been documented between athletes. Swimmers actually had the MOST hyperplasia out of all the athletes, with 2-3x the muscle fiber counts in their shoulder biopses versus other athletes including bodybuilders.
It appears that progressively loaded stretches and explosive/plyometric work are respectively the two most powerful ways to induce hyperplasia based on current research.
@slizzardman Gosh you're desperate! Let's say you have 50 - 50 slow - fast fibers. Through training over time, only the fast fibers tends to grow. Those slow ones doesn't grow. You'll get a ratio of 80 fast and 20 slow through correct lifting and gaining mass. If you maintain your speed/ acceleration, and practice jumping you'll see results beyond a natural kid who don't use it. Animals have different bone structures and genes.
@SuperPussyFpietros Sure, but 20 rep max is done at a fairly low multiplier of 1RM. The extra size leads to very, very low strength gains for the amount of tissue added. Also, technically it is the myofibrillar hypertrophy that added the strength, not the sarcoplasmic. Sarcoplasm has no contractile proteins. The biggest potential advantage of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is that the structural fibers are there, so myofibrils can be added without the muscle having to add so much structural protein.
@slizzardman Some people really trying to gain mass eg 150's would do 20 rm at 75% their max. This builds whole lot of muscles and burns fat. Any type of mass added is always beneficial this time myofiral. Even body builders don't use high rep anymore. They do mere 10 or 20 reps in sarcoplasmic to build strength as well. They also jump high about 33-4 inches standing and they never do plyo and rfd work.
@SuperPussyFpietros I searched everywhere online and could find no information on bodybuilders and vertical jump. No research, no articles, no nothing. The closest thing there is was an article by Fred Hatfield (Dr. Squat) about how to increase your vertical and that is again specifically targeted at ATHLETES. Please tell me where I can find these bodybuilders.
The qualities in plyometric capacity again is not a completely trainable quality. The only option left is explosiveness and generating raw strength quickly. This is transferable via high amounts of mass. Regarding genetics, there had been models on how much muscle you could gain. Muscles provide a way of increasing your jump base on rdf motors WITHOUT genetically changing your structure, inborn rate coding or neural factors.
@SuperPussyFpietros The only quality that appears to be untrainable is tendon length. All other qualities, from rate coding to tendon responsiveness(flexibility), are trainable to some degree. The trick is to train them correctly so that they actually apply to the given sport movements.
@slizzardman The trick to train them is via stimulation and practicing the coordination of a given movement eg jump.
On stimulation method you get to use different exercises or movements within a technical work: squats, drops, bench, rebound, rvj, svj - each varying the speed of the movements, mass or weight, and coordination, which generates "stimulus" effect of exciting the nervous system.
@slizzardman The length of the Achilles again contributes to the leverage(strength) which allows much taller folks eg James White to jump high without equally needing raw strength. By that I mean is that he might squat a legitimate 2 times body weight but get 46 inch running vert off 1 foot. These folks are too reactive and might never lift in their life. I can name more and more: Ariza, lebrick, jordan, igo, and many more even un popular persons.
@SuperPussyFpietros Oh, definitely. Of course, that's only rebound jumping. That doesn't apply AS much to their standing vertical, which as you have mentioned is pretty much all a function of rate of force development.
@slizzardman The drop method or altitude drops improves the rebound. The body can absorb more than any of the forces given at your vj's. Also these method's are originally from Russia which dominated olympics and call this "secret".
Plus, it actually got an effect where 100% recruitment gets into being.
if you look at the white line that is lined up with his crotch at take off, and how it lines up with his feet at the height of his jump, his leg length would have to be 42 inches or so for this to be true!
This is not a 40" vertical jump. 40" is a little over three feet off of the ground. This guy's feet never get higher than Mike Boyle's waist. I don't know how tall Mike is, but I would guess he isn't a tall man. Don't believe everything you see.
@BickhamStrength Yeah, I'm guessing it's hard to tell from a video, but, I agree that his feet did not look that high off of the ground. FYI - I've seen Boyle in person, and I'm guessing he's about 6 ft.
He can obviously get ups, definitely in the mi/high 30's. But yeah, the true measure is the difference of how high you can touch and you standing reach. Another thing to consider it that your body stretched....your reach could measure a 40" difference while you feet my only measure a difference in the mid 30's. It's that split second that you body stops going up and starts coming down. the last part to go up goes down first.
bending his legs slightly. those mats only measure hangtime... they're basically inaccurate, period.. because any bending of the body or any effort to increase hangtime will result in a higher reading than you actually jumped.
Its a above average vertical, but his legs are slightly bent in the air and upon landing, thus giving him more hangtime. Therefore its not an accurate measurement of his true vertical. I find the regular vertical leap test to be more accurate.
hmm, i read somewhere that the amount of time in the air before landing had something to do with the measurement as well... if that is the case, then bent legs will not give an accurate measurement to ones true vertical.. what is the name of the device being used so i can read more about it??? is it expensive to buy too?? peace
The mat calculates vertical jump height by measuring the time that the feet are not in contact with the mat, and from this calculates explosive leg power.
Stop all this HATING! The guy vertical jumped a clean 39 inches. I think Michael Boyle is MORE than qualified to test a true vertical. The guy is at the top of his field. Why would anyone even consider your comment over Mike's.
unfortunately the guys running the test dont understand the basic principles required to estimate VJ from jump mat data. it is no 40inch VJ. CofG must be same at take-off and landing. observe bent knee landing and different landing posture.looks a reasonable jump though.
That's not really true. If you jump and land in the same degree of knee flexion this machine is very accurate.
mbscvideo 4 months ago
@mbscvideo
even if you don't its pretty accurate. If the knee bend difference is x the error is appx 1/2x
or exactly x(x/16*(measured height) -1/2). So a six inch difference results in less than 3 inches off the vertical
PeqNP 2 months ago
Not that accurate when you keep your knees bent while in the air. It gives you more hangtime.
Thanhphong 4 months ago
@Thanhphong
LOL way to determine people with knowledges in physics bending your knee while jumping change your trajectory, your momentum and your balance in mid air it leads to losing hang time try again.
thesniper321 3 weeks ago
@thesniper321 He jumps straight up then bends his knee so how does that change the trajectory? If anything bending your knees give you more surface area and DECREASES your hang time. Try again.
Thanhphong 3 weeks ago
@Thanhphong
DID you even read what I said??? READ AGAIN MORON THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING GODDAMMINT
thesniper321 3 weeks ago
@Thanhphong
and since you wanna talk big explain me what means a different hang time in term of momentum and trajectory are they the same as if you have more hangtime?
DUMBASS wanna talk big when he can't SHUT THE FUCK UP
thesniper321 3 weeks ago
can someone tell me where i can get this mashine??
Soner6O 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Check out Chris Bryant's nike commercial jumping over roofs of cars on foot, also was on The Ellen Show
cnizzil25 9 months ago
One day I'm gonna invent a plate that weighs you and then measures your downward force upon jumping, then calculates how high you jump, rather than measuring how long you're in the air.
Hopefully it'll shut up some of these whiners. Good jump, your legs didn't look bent to me and very impressive jump nonetheless
Picklwarrior 9 months ago
the best way to measure is the old way, - with tape and a wall or pole.
hash1212121212 10 months ago 6
@hash1212121212 it's hard to jump against a wall. i suggest buying or making a vertec. cause you land pass the wall you'll either injure yourself or came awkward jump because of forward output.
CHECKrayrobionson 9 months ago
The man to the right is Mike Boyle, otherwise known as the who's who of trainers in the nation...not to mention the vertical jump mat is measuring the power produced from the testee, not hangtime like you all seem to think. To the ones who are trying to compare where is feet are to elsewhere in the screenshot...if the camera is held at a higher angle to the testee its impossible to gauge a height from video.
theunlimitedtraining 1 year ago
@theunlimitedtraining I hope your not a trainer because you lack even simple logic. So the mat only measures power output? That means it would measure a vertical jump for a heavy squat. That makes no sense, obviously different amounts of power would be required to send a 300 vs a 100 pound person airborne, the mat measures hang time.
Shadowzz4 1 year ago
Plyometrics does not train hyperplasia. In fact, it isn't body building or any mass - strength training. The key to plyometrics is to induce proper reversal of forces in movement and amortization and coordination. As these things are constant all you've told me = pseudo.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros If you go over to pubmed and search for hyperplasia and humans you will find the studies I am referencing. Youtube does not allow for me to put those links in here, and if you are not even willing to look than you are being close-minded. You appear to be missing some key data regarding the physiological response of muscles to stress in different environments. I'm not saying hypertrophy of 2x isn't important, I am saying that it is not the only thing to train.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman The only thing to train is the size of the muscles. Even that has limits if you're not taking steroids, you'll not get pass what's given naturally by your genes. It is used commonly by DB's and high strength performers. You're not increasing the weight or rep, you're not getting bigger. If you also increase the rep for 1- 10 IN the same WEIGHT, you've already gotten bigger.
To contrast more, if you have 300's then increase it to 360 while gaining mass, horse power increase!
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
Hyperplasia cannot be trained. It is combining, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for mass and myofibrall hypertrophy for strength which to minimize the time application of force thus power( f/t). The force again will also depend on the mass side of the equation. You'll never get as quick just by neurological gains than the gifted people eg Nate Robinson who already dunks at 14. These things are constant. Bigger muscles are stronger muscles.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
ya, u cant measure ur vert with hangtime....
ghostrank007 1 year ago
watch?v=8_mt-Icw6AQ
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
It's simple to get 40 inch virtual stand still jump.:
- Achieve 2.5 x own weight squat
- practice jumping on a fresh day
- eat more
- once achieved, detrain off the barbell for a month(rest)
- real propulsion will appear
Getting the 2.5 x weight squat is the hardest shit.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros That would help for sure, but you will also get a huge vert increase with proper Achilles tendon conditioning! I like head measured vert the best, personally, everything else is always a little fuzzy. Especially the hang time mat.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman length of Achilles is not a trainable quality. You only train the it's flexibility. Longer Achilles = better plyometric capacity aka length of the limbs/ lower leg.
Let's say you have 30 inches from virtual stand jump. When at 3 step approach, it then becomes 36 inches. The 6 additional inches probably won't grow much or actually get less once your raw strength increases.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros I'm definitely not arguing that you can lengthen the Achilles tendon, but you can thicken it which will allow it to be more responsive to higher forces and as you've said you can work on the flexibility of the tendon. The more stretch it can handle the better!
You can also train the calf musculature to produce more force, allowing a stronger isometric contraction as the tendon stretches, which in turn would increase the height of your rebound. I don't know by how much.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman Do your research. You're too straw man. Calf helps transfer force from the quads and posterior which still is glute or quad dominant. If you jump a lot, you've already trained the calf. Isometric contraction involves only on type of static coordination conditioning eg static squat, pushing a wall then holding it for certain amount of time. That's isometrics. It helps gain coordination or smooth exertion of force following a given exercise or movement.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros I have done my research, you are misunderstanding me. Muscles do not concentrically or eccentrically flex very much during the stretch reflex. Most of the movement is from the tendon stretching and then contracting. The muscles MUST maintain an isometric contraction during that fraction of a second. If they do not they will lengthen and reduce the elastic energy from the rebound through shock absorption.
Quads, by the way, are anterior chain. Just so you know.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman
"Most of the movement is from the tendon stretching"
Most force would come from rfd motors(muscles). Muscle along with the bones generates movement or force. Bigger mass motor(muscle) transfers immediately to any other activities.
Muscles also lengthen when involving a plyometric movement called amortizarion.
Like I said again, isometric contraction only refers to isometrics which is mere coordination.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros Amortization is just the name we call the ground impact phase of a plyometric movement. The eccentric lengthening is allowing forces to be reduced to what the body can safely handle in an isometric state, because the full force of impact is more than the body can handle. I'm not saying that amortization is supposed to be isometric, but I AM saying that the stronger your tendon is the more force your muscles can exert during amortization.
slizzardman 1 year ago
With the muscle, ligament, and tendon structures able to handle more applied force safely they can minimize the eccentric phase. This is crucial to power development. The faster the amortization, or "turnaround" of force, takes place the more force gets exerted into the ground, and the more force there is going into the ground the faster and higher you shoot back up.
slizzardman 1 year ago
The amount of applied force will be directly impacted by the muscle's ability to stop the eccentric lengthening, hold isometrically as the tendon starts to release the energy from its stretch, and as the tension in the tendon starts to drop shift into a concentric contraction as fast as possible to keep the acceleration as high as possible through the rest of amortization.
slizzardman 1 year ago
I apologize for my initial explanation, as it wasn't entirely accurate. The actual change in direction happens at the moment forces have been reduced to the point where the muscles can handle them isometrically. We can all handle more force isometrically than we can concentrically. That's pretty basic. As force drops to the point where concentric contraction is possible it happens. I was referring to the actual moment of direction change, and was not clear about that.
slizzardman 1 year ago
So while you're doing the depth drop, you stand onn a box greater than your vert eg 35 inches whiles your original is 22 - 5 inches standing. The forces you drop down (35 ") =/= the forces you would receive landing on your jump (22"). So the focus is to just absorb the force, landing very silently as possible via the motor as well in it's protection of the joints.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros Yes. And the heel should never touch the ground. If it does, the body can't handle the forces being expressed and will be getting trained to be inefficient. It is better to keep jumping off the same height block and take less time and less movement to absorb the force of landing than it is to raise the block to the point where you are unable to properly absorb force.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman The body again is able to absorb forces beyond what it appears. A 34" box would be fine.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros I think that we just have some kind of communication problem. The body is absolutely able to handle an incredible amount of force, but if you look at the math required to compute the force of impact you will see that the distance spent absorbing the impact directly and linearly changes the actual force. If I drop from 48" for example and use 12 inches of leg bend to absorb the landing my impact force will be exactly half of what it would be if I used 6 inches of leg bend.
slizzardman 1 year ago
Consider this: I weigh 100kg. If I drop from 1m and use 20cm of leg bend my muscles absorb 1175 lbs. If I drop 1m and use 10cm of leg bend my muscles absorb 2350lbs. If I drop from 2m and use 20cm of leg bend my muscles still absorb 2350 lbs. Landing bend determines the amount of force you absorb, especially in the lower leg. For the purpose of conditioning the stretch reflex it is actually better to reduce bending while keeping the heel from touching than it is to increase altitude.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman meter falls are not necessary. The term used is mere inches. dropping off 2 meter is too much and cause injury to the legs. The knee bent doesn't reduce that force. It is the momentum that causes forces to disintegrate. If you land and bend knees a lot then, it means that the force will travel kinetically on some parts of the body and not concentrate on prime muscles that suppose to get it. The forces should still be doubled on 2 m when it comes to 1
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@slizzardman When doing depth drops you should not allow the knees to bend past 90 degree. Regardless of your dropping form, a 48" box is far more. I recommend 34 for starters. 42 to equal force you would receive in twice body weight squat.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros Your math has no basis in reality. I posted numbers of what I absorb from just a 1m drop and it is around 8x bodyweight. Your understanding of the physics going into the drop isn't complete enough. Force applied on the muscles is affected by the distance traveled after impact as much as it is affected by height. You can drop from higher and get less impact if you bend enough. This has been demonstrated on force plates.
Your recommendation for beginners is also far too high.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman 8x own weight is based on kinetic energy. You lift a full squat, you're exerting more force than the weight with your body. beginners could do depending on their vertical. If their vert is 25, they could already absorb even 40 inches drops but I put it at 34. Then you've provide no evidence of training hyper plasia through swimming and plyo
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros I actually told you exactly where the information is. PubMed. Search for that on google, and it will come right up. Then search for "skeletal muscle hyperplasia" or just search for "swimmer hyperplasia" on google.
You will notice in the research that stretch overload is the most powerful inducer of hyperplasia. That is what plyometrics are, stretch overload. They are simply a higher force, lower duration version of static stretch overload.
slizzardman 1 year ago
Force is force. It doesn't matter what generated the force. Being able to absorb a drop and having the prerequisite structure in place to properly absorb drops from a given height with perfect form (very little knee bend and heels not touching ground ever, with upright torso and very little torso bend) without injuries building up over time are two completely different things. The only "sure" measurement for a drop is the height of a person's current vert for a beginner, and sometimes not that.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman The dosage would be 10, 18 seconds per rep. This is done by slowly getting back up to position and preparing for quality silent drop. Gymnasts jumps high as well. They land like cats and extreme reaction no one get. But if you look at these girl's legs they are pretty bulk. Bulk don't hurt vert.
So again this is only done at 1.5 x ratio or 2 to even benefit. frequency can be limited to 1 a week. You don't need that much plyo!
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@slizzardman plyometrics work by strengthening the rfd motors in other words still transferred via raw strength or purely mass equation of force which is squats. The Achilles tendon again don't lengthen with these exercises as you won't grow them.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros There's no such thing as an RFD motor, rate of force development is a neural factor. The more coordinated the motor units are and the more action potentials reach the motor units per second (rate coding) the faster rate of force development can be. Maximal tension isometrics for short durations can help train this ability at key points in the range of motion. Starting strength work also helps. There are many factors in rate of force development and nearly all are trainable.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardan As I said, you can train your speed to some degree considering what you've said before: "trainable to SOME degree". Speed of the movement, velocity, coordination, given all of them is constant bigger muscles are always stronger and transfers to any other activities. Rate force D motors again has variation in slightly red(slow) or slightly(white) fast THEN you can convert alter the fibers via 45% which is making more red or more white changing a fiber type.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros You are still overlooking the fact that muscle contraction speed is determined by A) energy source and B) nervous system.
The bigger is stronger thing is a half-truth, because the methods used to gain muscle size beyond a certain point start to directly train slower contraction speed. Technically speaking, the most important variable is the number of motor units, not their size.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman Number of motor units is not trainable quality. You only get insignificant amount of hyperplasia or splitting of cell. Size again doesn't make the cell contraction time degrade. It will produce more force ones bigger. Suppose 50 fast twitch fibers are twice as big as a slow twitch. It would require 100 slow twitch to equal the force contraction firing at the same time.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros Hyperplasia contributes new cells, which each have individual innervation. You are wrong about insignificant hyperplasia effects, there have been biopses on a number of athletes from different sports that suggest there can be enormous levels of hyperplasia, more than enough to make a massive difference in potential power. The size of the muscle cell only matters when the size comes from contractile proteins. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy does not increase strength.
slizzardman 1 year ago
You can search for that info on pubmed. The abstracts are free and will tell you quite a lot.
The single most important part of increasing power is decreasing the time total recruitment takes. After that the most important parts are, in my opinion, fairly evenly split between myofibrillar hypertrophy and hyperplasia. Maximizing both without negatively impacting total recruitment time is the ultimate goal for true peak performance.
slizzardman 1 year ago
slizzardmad The muscles increase size due to adding and tagging the proteins. There is a limit to how much you can gain with years of proper training and diet of a person not taking steroids. 5 - 10 pounds of muscle adds 100 plus pounds on squat depending on genetics. Hyperplasia again is not trainable. Maybe there's relatively few short instances of this to some people who have genetic probability to hyperplasia. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy increases strength in body builders in 20 rep max
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros I'm not claiming that muscle mass added as a result of strength training won't help, because it will, but each muscle fiber has a limit beyond which they do not like to grow, regardless of training. Hyperplasia provides our bodies with new fibers and this allows for more growth. Muscular hyperplasia has been documented in a number of animals and our muscle cells are not significantly different from theirs. There is also significant biopsy evidence in humans.
slizzardman 1 year ago
The reason we can't have 100% proof is that the only way to prove hyperplasia is physical removal of the entire muscle to digest the connective tissue with nitric acid and then count the individual fibers. Totally unethical in human research, and therefore impossible to prove empirically in humans. However, there have been cross-sectional biopses done on everyone from swimmers to bodybuilders to sprinters, and there appear to be varying degrees(15% to 100%+) of hyperplasia in all of them.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman It is true that even within the same sports different degrees of evidence for hyperplasia have been documented between athletes. Swimmers actually had the MOST hyperplasia out of all the athletes, with 2-3x the muscle fiber counts in their shoulder biopses versus other athletes including bodybuilders.
It appears that progressively loaded stretches and explosive/plyometric work are respectively the two most powerful ways to induce hyperplasia based on current research.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman Gosh you're desperate! Let's say you have 50 - 50 slow - fast fibers. Through training over time, only the fast fibers tends to grow. Those slow ones doesn't grow. You'll get a ratio of 80 fast and 20 slow through correct lifting and gaining mass. If you maintain your speed/ acceleration, and practice jumping you'll see results beyond a natural kid who don't use it. Animals have different bone structures and genes.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros Sure, but 20 rep max is done at a fairly low multiplier of 1RM. The extra size leads to very, very low strength gains for the amount of tissue added. Also, technically it is the myofibrillar hypertrophy that added the strength, not the sarcoplasmic. Sarcoplasm has no contractile proteins. The biggest potential advantage of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is that the structural fibers are there, so myofibrils can be added without the muscle having to add so much structural protein.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman Some people really trying to gain mass eg 150's would do 20 rm at 75% their max. This builds whole lot of muscles and burns fat. Any type of mass added is always beneficial this time myofiral. Even body builders don't use high rep anymore. They do mere 10 or 20 reps in sarcoplasmic to build strength as well. They also jump high about 33-4 inches standing and they never do plyo and rfd work.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros I searched everywhere online and could find no information on bodybuilders and vertical jump. No research, no articles, no nothing. The closest thing there is was an article by Fred Hatfield (Dr. Squat) about how to increase your vertical and that is again specifically targeted at ATHLETES. Please tell me where I can find these bodybuilders.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman Body builders sure jumps high. Search the DB's and their weight plus There's links on muscle limits.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@slizzardman
watch?v=eL8VmliV7sY
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
The qualities in plyometric capacity again is not a completely trainable quality. The only option left is explosiveness and generating raw strength quickly. This is transferable via high amounts of mass. Regarding genetics, there had been models on how much muscle you could gain. Muscles provide a way of increasing your jump base on rdf motors WITHOUT genetically changing your structure, inborn rate coding or neural factors.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros The only quality that appears to be untrainable is tendon length. All other qualities, from rate coding to tendon responsiveness(flexibility), are trainable to some degree. The trick is to train them correctly so that they actually apply to the given sport movements.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman The trick to train them is via stimulation and practicing the coordination of a given movement eg jump.
On stimulation method you get to use different exercises or movements within a technical work: squats, drops, bench, rebound, rvj, svj - each varying the speed of the movements, mass or weight, and coordination, which generates "stimulus" effect of exciting the nervous system.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@slizzardman The length of the Achilles again contributes to the leverage(strength) which allows much taller folks eg James White to jump high without equally needing raw strength. By that I mean is that he might squat a legitimate 2 times body weight but get 46 inch running vert off 1 foot. These folks are too reactive and might never lift in their life. I can name more and more: Ariza, lebrick, jordan, igo, and many more even un popular persons.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
@SuperPussyFpietros Oh, definitely. Of course, that's only rebound jumping. That doesn't apply AS much to their standing vertical, which as you have mentioned is pretty much all a function of rate of force development.
slizzardman 1 year ago
@slizzardman The drop method or altitude drops improves the rebound. The body can absorb more than any of the forces given at your vj's. Also these method's are originally from Russia which dominated olympics and call this "secret".
Plus, it actually got an effect where 100% recruitment gets into being.
SuperPussyFpietros 1 year ago
if you look at the white line that is lined up with his crotch at take off, and how it lines up with his feet at the height of his jump, his leg length would have to be 42 inches or so for this to be true!
geoffp13 1 year ago
This is not a 40" vertical jump. 40" is a little over three feet off of the ground. This guy's feet never get higher than Mike Boyle's waist. I don't know how tall Mike is, but I would guess he isn't a tall man. Don't believe everything you see.
BickhamStrength 1 year ago
@BickhamStrength Yeah, I'm guessing it's hard to tell from a video, but, I agree that his feet did not look that high off of the ground. FYI - I've seen Boyle in person, and I'm guessing he's about 6 ft.
bsumiko 1 year ago
not 40" he just bent his legs lmao
Tiagor0drigues 1 year ago
I can already kind of jump high naturally...
I dont need these programs and tutorials, i tried one and it spammed my inbox with
BOUNC ON TRMPoleen
twisterfield651 1 year ago
Gotta keep your laegs straight man but still an impressive jump
kb24crazylaker 1 year ago
Looks like about 35 inches from my experience of verticals he bent his knees which folled the machine.
Baconbits32 2 years ago
u obviously dont know how the machine works
Diaper1rash 2 years ago
He can obviously get ups, definitely in the mi/high 30's. But yeah, the true measure is the difference of how high you can touch and you standing reach. Another thing to consider it that your body stretched....your reach could measure a 40" difference while you feet my only measure a difference in the mid 30's. It's that split second that you body stops going up and starts coming down. the last part to go up goes down first.
cbdud 2 years ago
lol
basketball559 2 years ago
If he would have thrown his arms up he could get 40 without bending his knees a slight bit
letthepwnagebegin 2 years ago
bending his legs slightly. those mats only measure hangtime... they're basically inaccurate, period.. because any bending of the body or any effort to increase hangtime will result in a higher reading than you actually jumped.
sameron03 2 years ago 24
he didnt bend his knees alot on landing so it would be accurate for him.
billysue2 2 years ago
@sameron03 theres no such thing as hangtime... you are right about the inaccuracy however
benbasketballgtar 6 months ago
That's pretty impressive
Canabaha 2 years ago
not that high still he's white
50brooklyn 2 years ago
Racist
hevyduty45 2 years ago
why does everybody hate ..
XxDecrepifyxX 2 years ago
jealousy
desertix 2 years ago
Hey
Its a above average vertical, but his legs are slightly bent in the air and upon landing, thus giving him more hangtime. Therefore its not an accurate measurement of his true vertical. I find the regular vertical leap test to be more accurate.
heightboosting 2 years ago 3
Hey
It measures the power pushed not the height of the jump.
cheke64 2 years ago
hmm, i read somewhere that the amount of time in the air before landing had something to do with the measurement as well... if that is the case, then bent legs will not give an accurate measurement to ones true vertical.. what is the name of the device being used so i can read more about it??? is it expensive to buy too?? peace
heightboosting 2 years ago
if that's true than that shit is worthless. I dont know know the name .
cheke64 2 years ago
got this from google:
The mat calculates vertical jump height by measuring the time that the feet are not in contact with the mat, and from this calculates explosive leg power.
mig7u 2 years ago
those mats add on like 6in.
mikebabz33 3 years ago
Stop all this HATING! The guy vertical jumped a clean 39 inches. I think Michael Boyle is MORE than qualified to test a true vertical. The guy is at the top of his field. Why would anyone even consider your comment over Mike's.
shortys00100 3 years ago
i don think tht thing s 2 accurate. cause tht did not look lik 40 inches mor lik n the 30s
homeworksuks 3 years ago
lol this wasn´t 40 inches xD maybe 10 ... very bad
tobseninholzheim 3 years ago
Don't those things measure how long you are in the air? Bent knees makes no difference.
TheReid 3 years ago
even if he bent his knees, its still probably 37 or 38 with straight legs
hezzospike123 3 years ago
his vert may not be 40 but he has springs,no denying it
randomperson331 3 years ago 3
bent kneees
wiger31 3 years ago
u idiot that thing doesnt record by bent knees or not.. it record how much force u put in compared to ur weight... "bent knees" u sound like a retard
mayyma 3 years ago
bent knees.
rivetingcactus 3 years ago
unfortunately the guys running the test dont understand the basic principles required to estimate VJ from jump mat data. it is no 40inch VJ. CofG must be same at take-off and landing. observe bent knee landing and different landing posture.looks a reasonable jump though.
fasttrak32 3 years ago 12
@fasttrak32 Yeah you can neat pick all you want, but you still gave to bend your knees
koko56 1 year ago
how long did it take him to achieve that? what kind of training did he do?
albtensai 3 years ago