Advanced Motorcycle Training looking at Bends

[Trotters222]

I thought he was going to drift into the oncoming lane on his left handers. Is it just me? Lol

[deromegadrei]

For some reason I feel that this video goes completely against the motorcycle training I received. I was instructed to hit the apex of turn in order to avoid running wide. At 1:33 you turn left, and stick to the right side of the lane, towards the centre of the road, instead of moving to the apex on the left side of the road. If you take this turn at a higher speed and keep this line around the turn, won't you end up running wide and deviating from your lane??

[advancedbiker]

@deromegadrei - Thanks for the feedback. There is nothing wrong with the way you have been taught if you have a CLEAR view through the bend. What I was trying to illustrate was Position first to get your view and then go for the starightest line thrpugh the bend,which is not always going for the apex. On a Race Track not an issue.

[deromegadrei]

@advancedbiker point taken :) Ride safe mate!

[advancedbiker]

@deromegadrei - I'll send you a pdf link which may explains it better if you want it.

[paula4u]

So yep one approaching car was coming to fast, 30mph to my 10mph I had to give way or face impact ;-( scooter down, foot trapped, but i stood up and drove away.. drats it scratched the bike.. how do you brake on gravel without coming off? Obviously even at my low speed it still pulled me off. ;-( shoulder ligaments torn, severe bruising from trapped foot, but Im still here ;-)

[paula4u]

Hia, just back from my switzerland run.. 2400 miles on the road.. all went perfect even the gravel sections on some of the paths.. untill last day in switzerland I went shopping and did a little tour village to village in schwyz area.. there was nothing that prepared me for what i had to face.. an unexpected detour.. as road was shut, about 7km on a tarmac, gravel surfaced road descent down, hairpin bends, 1.5 car width no markings cars behind you cars towards you weave and stop etc

[Mig2133]

Pretty good video... I agree nothing like hands on, and if that's your first time on that particular road, it's better to be slow then trying to impress someone, take your time and do it right.

[paula4u]

Your video's are great but nothing is better than hand on hand one to one training. Just had my first bike safe weekend and loved it.. All I need now to go to the next step and practice what i learned.

[advancedbiker]

@paula4u Let me know how you get on. Any issues, I am only an e-mail away. Well Done

[paula4u]

Your video's are great but nothing is better than hand on hand one to one training. Just had my first bikesafe weekend and loved it.. All I need now to go to the next step and practice what i learned.

[woodlist]

Absolutely endorno. This is an excellent video. But it has to be said that locals know he road and use it like a cart track, and wander where they please. In a car it's bad enough. On a bike it must be frightening at times.

Thanks for this

Woodrow Lister.

[YourDopamine]

LOL RIP

[utterlycutterly]

i live in n ireland ive looked at your videos before and have found them very helpfull particulary the ones on cornering and bends this is where i have a great weakness i have questions 1 how safe is it to lean the bike in the wet 2 i have heard that you acelerate on a bend is this true as i thought could cause high side 3 do you position your body and hang off the bike to give it more stability ? you have resp had before thanks would b very gratefull for some profesional advice again

[advancedbiker]

I will get back to you tomorrow

Regards

Nigel

[advancedbiker]

CORNERING

Cornering is a hazardous manoeuvre, but is a necessary one because of our road systems. Too many riders the art of cornering is one area where they have the greatest problem.

You must always remember that each rider has his or her own limit and this must never be exceeded. You know the temptation, If my mate can get round the bend, I can.

Always remember:

GO IN SLOW,

MAINTAIN A CONSTANT SPEED AROUND THE BEND, AND

ACCELERATE OUT. ( IS IT IS SAFE TO DO SO )

[advancedbiker]

A motorcycle is most stable when it is travelling upright, in a straight line at a constant speed. To alter its direction i.e. in this case in order to go around a bend a directional force is applied.

Remember that if you brake or accelerate when in a bend you lesson the grip on the tyres. If the grip on the tyres is lessened then the motorcycle will want to go straight.

[advancedbiker]

In otherwords on a left-hand bend it tends to drift towards the offside on the road and into the face of oncoming traffic.  On right hand bends towards the kerb or hedge. I am sure we have all experienced this during our riding and have never known why this happens.

[advancedbiker]

In order to maintain control, stability and clean underwear after CORNERING the following factors and measures can be applied.

APPROACHING A BEND

You must consider the following when you approach any bend :-

A) Speed of motorcycle on approach

B) Gear of motorcycle

C) Traffic on road, ahead as well as behind

D) View into and out of bend

E) Application of the System

F) Can the limit point be seen?

[advancedbiker]

STABILITY IN THE BEND

On entering the bend you must be able to maintain the stability of the motorcycle, that is maintaining control. To do this you must assess the curvature of the bend and maintain a constant speed. The engine should be just pulling to compensate for the slight reduction in speed caused by the forces acting on the motorcycle - BALANCE the throttle, engine revs up - lower gear than normal so any speed variation can be applied through the throttle.

[advancedbiker]

You must always be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear.

The secret of safe bending is:

Technique,

Observation,

System,

Control and

Good assessment of a safe bending speed, which is within your own limits

[BuellAdventure]

Rule number one for riding a motorcycle is to RELAX. Also, in my limited experience (only been riding 25+ years) when riding in heavy traffic on a tight curvy road, you are better off just taking a position about one meter off the center line and watching where you are going. All the outside-inside-outside corning line stuff is much Much less important than staying relaxed, riding the bike and watching where you are going. Let your vision control your speed and enjoy the ride. That's it.

[oCannabusdriver]

i agree... if i ride when im upset or i think too much about how i ride i always end up freakin myself out by doing something stupid

[advancedbiker]

We all have bad dyas, it is good to recognise the fact.

[pmatty77]

I agree, taking a centre of the road position on narrow roads doesnt give you much room to manouvere if some boy racer comes round the corner

[crapatitus]

i wish i had roads like those

[prakashjk]

So,cornering does not work here in case of fast speeds(70kmph plus)?I thought in left cornering ,you can just lean left with weights on the left hand pushing off the bike to Right Side.This is what I try.The Idea is, the Bike's Tyres must have maximum area of contact on the Road.Hope I am correct here.

[birthnight]

what the hell is this guy talking about? "Turn Left Turn Left" tell that dude to shut up he's annoying

[lesbufton]

looking at these videos for left corners

makes me wonder what are you surposed to to do when 60% of the cars

in mid wales are driving like on a race track if i put myself in postion of 1/2 metre my side the white line i would be taken out by cars cutting the corner even blind corners double white lines

[SniperSheep92]

for the first 25 seconds he is riding to far to the lef stick to the middle a bit more. and on the last bend he was too close to the white line

nice vid (:

[Brainiac83]

Maby cool down on the left turn coming, right turn coming.He probably has his on set of eyes and mind..Maby try to keep him on..Mind your speed and consistancy, , Position  and slow yourself for the turn and take it with a constant speed, gently accelerate out of the turn to the speed limit and continue at a constant point from the white line or edge of the road..And let him take some turns for a minute or two with his own head..Your videos are great,keep it up..:o)

[Brainiac83]

Interesting aproach ..In my country the rider is followed with an instructor in the car..I couldnt help to notice the constant vocal pressure on the rider..Impossible to relax , thats why his mind is constantly on your voice not being able to concentrate on the curve and his technique and the feeling hes doing everything wrong.Thats why hes all over the place.Try giving objective pointers for example.(Lets try keeping a ceartain distance from the white line so we areb all over the place)

[CHOPERUS23]

Nant-Y-Garth pass is a really dangerous and very exciting road to ride when the weather is good and roads not too busy. That rider was way too slow through there in my opinion, hey I went through the Nant y garth about 2 weeks ago and even got my knee down!!!! oops

[bikedemon99]

little bit to close to the centre line on those bends especially the last one me thinks since he cant see round them, someone coming wide will take him out, great vids though

[jigibao]

exelent job done...

[bbbarbarian]

i hate ur vids dude, they suck!!! wtf so much training, get on the bike and ride it u pussy

[amrbekhit]

Great attitude man! I place a bet down that you won't survive till the end of this year on a bike with those wise words. Ace!

[hornetobiker]

I haven't watched this vid for about a year and a bit and I have to say that this time I felt really frustrated by the riders road positioning. Whereas before I'm sure I wouldn't have really noticed these "details". Hopefully this means I'm improving. : ) I couldn't afford extra lessons after the DAS and buying my bike and I feel maybe I wouldn't be here now if not for these videos. Great stuff and thanks AB. All kudos to you.

Peace and luck.

[advancedbiker]

Does this mean I will have to charge charging for my advice....... I think not.

Thanks and keep coming back

Regards

Nigel

[hornetobiker]

No mate, but I believe it means your probably saving lives providing this info on youtube rather than making cash. It won't pay the mortgage but that depends on what you value most a?

I'll buy you a pint if we ever meet if that's any consolation. ;)

[advancedbiker]

One day I am sure I will make a profit with the business. It is still a passion for me, a hobby and a great way to make a living. I'll have to meet up now, if there is a pint mentioned........

[hornetobiker]

Anytime you're up near Scotland mate. I'm based in the South West, near Dumfries. PM me whenever.

[benjyboba]

He could have possibly leaned it over harder to the left then harder to the right. I don't know exactly what your safty standard book is like but could I read the PDF that you spoke of in one of the other posts so I can get a better idea. I know observation effects your speed but I believe good bike control can put you in the right position. Could you possibly make a fast but safe video of how it should be done. I peronally find I can get the best view and still set myself up for the next bend.

[advancedbiker]

1. To be fair, this one one of my first attempts at putting clips on Youtube and was used to try and identify things you can look for when approaching and planning for the bends.  The rider had only been with me a couple of hours, and prior to that had not ridden for over 12 months. Perhaps in hindsight, not a good example, but I am on Youtube to learn and this is one post where I have.

2. If only I could make a video at higher speeds, but I can not. I am governed by speed limits.

[advancedbiker]

3.  When I trained as a Police Motorcycle Instructor, I spent 15 weeks over a period of 2 years riding above the speed limit, where safe. That was before Health and Safety and these dammed Revenue Cameras. I wish I could have filmed it. So in answer to your question of higher speeds, Yes been ther, done that and go the 'T' shirt. Yes it is easier at speed as your depth of vison - 'scanning' is greater. Oh happy days.....

[benjyboba]

I know you make a lot of good educational video's and I think it's a really good idea. I was wondering if your not allowed to demonstrate it on the road, maybe you could do it in a carpark or a race track or private road and also make some videos of control techiques such as counter steering and trail braking. It all makes us better road riders as I have educated myself and learned from others. I personally believe everyone should be trained to ride fast, it makes us better observers and safer.

[endorno]

My advanced training was with comms & your video is a 1st class representation of bend assessment and execution technique. Comments by others that the video is poor and your commentary distracting are pitiful. You even add written comments highlighting visual clues, what more do people want! My ROSPA test is on Nov 21 and no matter if I fail or achieve gold, the superb training and advice I have received from people like you will always ensure I am a safer rider! Keep up the good work

[advancedbiker]

Thank you for your support and good luck with the test, let me know how you get on

Regards

Nigel

[endorno]

I am pleased to report Bronze but disappointed not to get Silver as I would like to become a RoSPA Tutor. I am pragmatic about the award and will put more effort into my riding to ensure I sparkle. The examiner said I displayed good Silver riding but my mistakes let me down. Not overtaking but remaining in position gave the impression of aggresion, and a stupid failure to notice I was in a national limit while doing 40 for a3rd mile! I will work harder on overtakes and observation

[advancedbiker]

Well, welcome to RoSPA. Wait till you get the report, before reapplying for your test.

W

[learn2rideVIDEOS]

@endorno if you are an ADI having passed the IAM test then you can still go for the Rospa Diploma regardless of having taken any Rospa test in order to teach.

if not, then simply get a local qualified instructor to teach you and try again!

let us know how you get on ok?

[learn2rideVIDEOS]

@endorno totally agree, happily passed the Rospa test with a Gold with the help of a local instructor (ballymena motorcycle training) and these vids from Nigel.

Excellent stuff, forget the naysayers

[endorno]

My thanks go to you and Nigel for your support.

Happy New Year and safe riding.

[learn2rideVIDEOS]

thanks mate & same to you

(& everyone else on two wheels)

[benjyboba]

He didn't seem to be planning ahead too well. He was listening to his instructions but at some points I personally believe he wasn't quite in the best position. I agree with moving to the best view but it seemed like he was over concentrating on the view and not planing for the next bend properly(He had the wrong idea ?). What you maybe should have done is got him to follow your lines and drove a bit faster. I think if he had drove faster himself with them lines he would have gone off the road.

[terrier57]

Riding too close to oncoming traffic regardless of positioning for better information.What if that truck had something loose flapping around?

[marcaz64]

i live not far from the nant y garth pass it is bad going though in the car with all the bends a good mate of mine lost this life going though there on a bike

[advancedbiker]

They have to be treated with respect. You tend to carried away on the bends on the approach towards Ruthin, and then they become more challenging

[vincentcomet50]

The bike is badly positioned for every corner and he is not in control of his vehicle.

Not to do the Me, Myself and I routine, but if his instructions were clearer, the video would be more useful.

Riding to the right or left of the oily strip is good practice. Coming around a corner at the outisde limits is not. Maybe it's my "bad" American training but usually you bisect the curve, taking the flattest line possible.

[advancedbiker]

I can see where you are coming from, but when riding towards the 'Advanced Standard' we are looking at postioning for view at all times, if it is SAFE. I'll send you a pdf link of the reading material we use, if you want

Regards

Nigel

[redcappra]

You don't position for vision, you position for safety. What's the point in been wide if the only thing you achieve is to see the colour of the car that's about to kill you?

This rider should have been taught and coached to slow down and approach and go though theses corners left hand wheel track, buffered away from the oncoming car, or truck. Left hand wheel track would also have given him a margin of error with his lack of steering skills.

[advancedbiker]

Every comment on this post is read and thanks for the feedback. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[redcappra]

This is more than opinion. It is right and wrong. It is a matter of safety.

[redcappra]

In this instance you had a novice rider barely in control of the steering skills wobbling inches away from the centre line, on blind corners, on a narrow road and with on coming traffic. Even without the danger of oncoming cars the rider was in danger of wobbling across to the wrong side of the road.

Unsafe, unprofessional and criminally negligent. Unbelievable. Insane.

[hennerss]

You're a complete idiot. This is DSA approved advanced defensive riding, and it's what the police use. It is extremely dangerous to ride a blind left bend in "left wheel track".

You're an idiot.

Nice one Dave

[redcappra]

Whats the danger on the left?

[hennerss]

Poor road surface, very poor visibilty.

[redcappra]

"Poor road surface, very poor visibilty."

Wrong. Wrong answer. Poor road surface can be anywhere on the road. Poor visibility is not a danger in itself.

The danger on the left is intersections, driveways, park/broken down cars, animals, pedrestians, pushies and maybe slow moving traffic.

And you deal with these problems by slowing down, and gauranteeing you can stop within the distance you can see, that is being mentally and physically prepared to brake (cover/set up brakes).

[henners8585]

"Within the distance you can see"

You say that again, but you say visibility isn't a danger? If you can see further you have more time to react to a developing hazard. Somehow i think you're just looking for an arguement, guess you're American.

[redcappra]

"You say that again, but you say visibility isn't a danger? " Read more carefully. I said visibility in itself is not a danger.

[redcappra]

"If you can see further you have more time to react to a developing hazard." Ah Derr!

The danger is that the oncoming danger is closing. If you are doing 20mph and the oncoming car is doing 20mph the closing speed is 40mph. Essentially, if the oncoming car does nothing you have to react as though you are doing 40mph.

If you are approaching a danger on the left you are approaching a danger on the left at 20mph AND out of the way of the oncoming car partly on your side of the road .

[redcappra]

Now go to Google and look up The Theory of Impact and tell me what does the greater damage and by what proportion.

I think you are from the Flat Earth Assoc. I think you are scared of change. You don't think for yourself and take comfort in pre-packaged 'conventional wisdom'.

[henners8585]

Lol! You're off your tree!

[yellowbusguy]

Thats not fair to call him an American. We would never say "pushies" what in the world is that?

[hennerss]

Vision IS safety

[redcappra]

"Vision IS safety" Ah, the unthinking man's mantra. Platatudes aplenty.

There are three things we do to stay safe; observation, manage position and manage speed.

Vision is not observation. Observation is more involved and more proactive.

And you DON'T give up position (buffer) to get better vision if it means you're closer to danager without the gaurantee that you can get out of the way of danger within the distance you can see (that is, any situation that can be described as 'blind'.

[henners8585]

I don't believe you ride bikes. Riding a defensive line saves lifes. It's why police are trained this way. I really can't believe you can't see the logic here.

Draw a left-hand bend. Position two bikes on it, one next to the verge, one in a right hand position. Draw a line to see how far they can see.

"within the distance you can see"... that's the whole point.

Bikes lean AWAY from oncoming traffic on a left,in a right-hand position we r no nearer to oncoming traffic then a car would b

[redcappra]

I don't believe YOU ride that way and survive, let alone that you would teach it.

So make up your mind. Is it " Vision IS safety" or "Riding a defensive line saves lifes"

[redcappra]

"Draw a left-hand bend. Position two bikes on it, one next to the verge, one in a right hand position. Draw a line to see how far they can see." Raise to your own challenge. Go to a blind corner, as depicted, and on the approach, at the turn in, and at the centre of the corner, alternatively stand on the l/h wheel track and then on the r/h wheel track and then tell me how much further you see through the corner. Then come back.

[realtorman2]

Lame-o rider too close to the center line on the curves. About to get a mirror sandwich or worse.

[hennerss]

Note how motorcyclists lean AWAY from the apposing traffic when taking a left bend. You end up no nearer to the traffic than your right hand wing mirror in you Datsun Sunny

[redcappra]

WTF?

[boots6891]

Good video, the guy in front is obviously for real, one thing you have to do is learn at you own pace. The saying old dog new tricks applies perfectly here, especially when the dog thinks it knows enough already. I spent a day with a police instructor. He pushed me to go faster than i would have but only after he had raised my awareness level. The result is you go back to your normal speed but with greater vision. Smoother, Safer and Faster.

[thunderatedcatdavy]

THANKS! i enjoyed that video. as usual, everyone is an expert on youtube..nice roads & nice info- what most bikers need (me incl). anybody who thinks they are better: they probably arent- an inflated sense of ego whilst riding can have disastrous consequences- we can always learn summit new!!!!!

[alpsalish]

Thanks for the "don't rush, don't rush comment." Perfect advice there.

[advancedbiker]

Thanks for the feedback.

I have just taken delivery of a new camera mount from Canada for my helmet. I have old footage but on Sony 8mm that used to work. Just waiting for a good sunny day.

[deanjfk]

can i ask what camera you have purchased and at what cost? I have been looking at Twenty20 and there camera. Any website you might wish to share? Great video!

[advancedbiker]

My thoughts on the subject, keep it simple. I am not convinced that the cameras you get with combined hard drives are the best. Granted they are compact and ideal for motorcycling, but ny set has proved very effective for over 5 years now. I use a bullet camera to an av in camcoder, which over the years has been updated from 8mm to mini dv. Any sites, try Roy at RF Concepts or Fastfilms.

[deanjfk]

Cheers for that, i can't believe the pricing very cheap compared to Twenty20 and Dagcam. I have been looking at the VholdR but there is no stock world wide. I want to avoid wires if possible. If they turn out rubbish i just buy better next time...LOL

[alpsalish]

Also if possible set corner speed with revs not brakes. It'll eliminate imbalance and you're less likely to freak out and inadvertently grab different controls. You also will be able to drive through the curve better.

[alpsalish]

"Essentially what I'm saying is that he is FAR too close to the centre of the road and in great danger of colliding with opposite traffic." Absolutely agree. Front rider is waiting to get hit. Positioning for view is very important, but not when that involves putting oneself directly in harms way. I've adopted and firmly believe riding as close to center is the best and actually maintaining that line actually requires more skill then drifting around in ones lane.

[fingerhorn4]

Right hand bends ok, starts well left and keeps inside until exit is clearly seen, but why is he hugging the centre line all the way round a blind left bend? I can see the logic of opening up the view on the approach but he's still on the centre-line ALL the way round. What if a Lorry sudddenly appears the other way also near the centre? This can't be right.

[fingerhorn4]

Addendum: Essentially what I'm saying is that he is FAR too close to the centre of the road and in great danger of colliding with opposite traffic. If this is official training then I am very concerned. I would never invite a collision in this way. Conditions are also wet which makes sudden adjustment to oncoming traffic risky.

[advancedbiker]

Thanks and I appreciate the comments. When postioning for view, especially on Left hand bends, safety is the key word and you must always be in a position to alter course or speed. The camera angle sometimes gives a bad impression, which I think has occured in this clip a bit, however I will take you comments on board. It is difficult to get it right all the time, but with these video clips, the feedback I am getting is very encouraging and will benefit future clients.

[fingerhorn4]

Thanks for replying. I've seen other training videos with similar hugging of the centre line round left hand bends. My instructor taught me to keep to the right portion on the approach but not to make myself vulnerable to opposite traffic cutting the centre line, so I got into the habit of being at least in the centre of my lane by the time I have entered a left hand bend. That gives me options to adjust either direction when needed, and this sounds rational and safe to me.

[advancedbiker]

Thanks

Keep the feedback coming.  I never try and leave the rider in such a position where they, as I call it are 'Outside their comfort Zone'.

Regards

Nigel

[nomisoulfly]

I think that advanced biker is correct the camera will give the illusion the rider is closer than he really is to that centre line. The thing to remember as I see it is:

a). the greater vision you have around the corner and of the oncoming traffic you can compensate for it.

b). (something I think some ppl are overlooking) planning the next potential hazard on exit of the corner. There could be a tractor followed by a trail of cars around that bend and that's as much of a hazard!

[Upstairsatericz]

hehe guy infront doesnt look to 'at one' with his machine , and guy behind doesnt call the oncoming dusty road in middle of said 'nasty nasty bend(looked quite tasty tbh).nice sound quality on radio's though , what you use?

[advancedbiker]

Thanks for the feedback, I use AUTOCOM, with the pillion lead connected to the audio leads on the camcorder. Yes you are spot on with the rider. Long story, which I can not discuss on this site, other than the rider was just coming back to biking after and this was his second long ride out.

[Activethrasher00]

rofl. what the hell is this.

[TheZ07]

Could have fit 2 wheelies and a couple of knee downs in there :P. Nice roads in Wales. Just got back from a 250mile rideout with 4 other bikers on sunday. Good fun.

[SPCK111]

Good video...Could you send me a opy of your DVD...Im a class one advanced police rider and would be interested to see it thanks.

[pjw77uk1]

Would have preferred to hear you comment on what he does rather than telling him what to do (assuming you had a radio link of course).

[advancedbiker]

Will try and look for some footage, I musthave some somewhere

[1973Honda125]

Excellent instructional video. My wife and I are new riders. I hope to find more advanced riding skills vids from you. Thanks again.

[klaraklu]

great vid especially for someone like me who only does city riding. not done any country lanes since my training. good to brush up on skills

[tarmacscratcher]

Good video. Rider sits too ridged on the bike......thinks he's driving his car :) No body movement from him at all. He's making it hard work for himself .

[advancedbiker]

Long story... which I can go into in depth, instructors ethics etc..., but the chap had not ridden for over 6 months and this was the first time on the VFR. He did improve.

[88hawaii]

Nice instructional video. I was concerned that the rider rode too closely to opposing traffic, though. He wasn't really going that fast to justify getting that close. Maybe it's just the wide angle lens that makes it look like he's too close to oncoming traffic? I'm not sure.

[advancedbiker]

Thanks or the comment, I'll look at it. My camera is mounted on the offside fairing mirror and , yes I agree sometimes it looks close.

[deanjfk]

Hows the Kawa doing... When you putting some more stuff out there for us to watch 88?

DeanUk

[Valefanuk]

excellent

[BT7291]

Just wish this video had lasted longer. I found it very helpful.

[advancedbiker]

Hello BT I have done a 1 hour DVD if you are interested, let me know and I will send you one for evaluation

[S748e]

Good in principle however the rider didn't sacrifice his view for safety i.e. he remained well out to the white line to take the left hand corner despite a large white touring van travelling in the opposite direction therefore not leaving much margin for error had the van swerved.

[shiralee007]

I am new to biking and have been out and about the North Yorks Moors with my husband following behind. I have struggled on the left bends and having seen your video it makes more sense now. Thanks and keep up the brilliant videoing.