@unityspirit52 so did god allow him to win the battle? doesnt he know the future? if he knew the first thing coming out of that door would be Jephte`s child, he wouldnt allow him to win. Nobody said god did it, just that god didnt intervene. By the way, he didnt order this time, but he did order so many other times...like when that guy ws picking up sticks on the floor on a sabath day, and he was killed because god said not to work on a sabath. and many other stories are in the old testament.
@bekacynthia God is a God of his word. He gave us this gift called "freewill choice", and won't simply intervene just bcos he knew we'd make a wrong choice. Imagine a mother telling her child, "Today is your birthday, and you get to choose where to eat." Then when the child chooses, she says, "Restaurant A? Not healthy. Restaurant B? Too expensive. Restaurant C? Too far away. You can only choose Restaurant D." Do you get what I mean? If she keeps intervening she's not really letting him choose
But she'd SURELY say "Restaurant Z?? Where they offer the uncooked flesh of dead leprous? NO WAY!!!"
God, on the other hand, would NOT let us choose, but make the choice for us - because he created everything and knows everything in advance, so we have no free will...
@grozde I don't really get what you mean. God would not let us choose, but will push us to Restaurant Z??
But, did God ever do that? Never in my life, at least... in my years of following Jesus (more than 20 years), never that God would push me to do something that is bad for me... Always he will let me choose, and he will even cause me to have the desire to choose the good path for myself.
Let me explain. A loving mother would PREVENT you from disastrous choices on the price of your free will. God would not!
God CREATED the disastrous outcome.
God KNOWS IN ADVANCE everything and everything happens according to his PLAN. So it's PLANNED BY HIM for us to be making bad choices, it's planed by him that we shall go to hell.
About the pharaoh: are you a Christian? How come you haven't read your Bible?
Check out if your god deprived the pharaoh from free will and WHY!
In my earlier Illustration of Restaurant A, B and C, I was trying to explain about the concept of "choice".
Now, you are asking about whether a good God would Prevent us from making a wrong choice.
Let me take the illustration further. Suppose this child is now a teenager and tells his mom, "I don't want you to rule over me.. I can make my own living and decide things for myself. I don't need you. I don't want you." and starts to pack.
Has he ever ducked quickly into a back alley just to try and lose you? I just wondered.
'Always he will let me choose'
Incorrect. According to you, God both made up the rules AND, being all seeing and all knowing, already knows what you are going to choose. Remember, this is your fucked up logic, not mine.
God gives us a freewill to choose our actions. But God as the Righteous Judge must also punish sin. He cannot let sin reign unabated.
However, if you read and understand the bible, you will see that God loves mercy and seldom exercise judgment unless absolutely necessary. Even in the OT, more often than not God will forgive and forgive.. His nature is that if there's any excuse for Him to relent from punishing, he will use it, to give us the opportunity to repent.
@SpongeElla, I'm going to jump in, if I may. What TheThunderduck was referring to included global infanticide. What horrible sin did a newborn commit to deserve to die? It would be like finding a woman guilty of murder, and deciding it is just to kill the child along with her. This does not sound like a righteous judge. Also, you say god "seldom exercise[s] judgment unless absolutely necessary," and that "if there's any excuse for Him to relent from punishing, he will use it, to give us (cont)
(cont) the opportunity to repent." One, I don't think it is "necessary" to kill lots of infants, and if that is the BEST an all powerful being can come up with to solve the problem (which technically he created in the first place), he could have done a lot better. I think if the only way I can punish the woman for murder is to kill her kids, that is a good "excuse," as you put it, to refrain from doing so or (more importantly) find a better plan of action (which he SHOULD be able to do). (cont 2
(cont 2) Beyond this, the infant didn't do anything wrong to begin with to repent from. Also, the massive destruction that would have occured to all other forms of life is completely unnecessary (and gives added problems like inbreeding depression and the fact that most plant life would be dead which easily shows it is impossible). I do not have all knowledge and I can envision a better plan. Either way, if I had a gun to your head and told you that you could choose to sit on the (cont 3)
(cont 3) couch or the chair, but then informed you that if you sat in the chair I would blow your brains out, that is effecting your free will. Yes, you can still choose, but that is like the mafia making you "a deal you can't refuse." Best part is, shooting you dead is a miniscule amount of suffering compared to eternal torment. No, wait.. even BETTER is that this punishment is not technically based off your actions, but your belief (and in something of which (cont 4)
(cont 4) no empirical evidence is provided, and I purposely made conflicting sets of beliefs that make similar claims and have just as much supporting "evidence").. Now, I know it seems I'm picking on you and I know I NEVER got around to answering your last comments (its so hard to keep track of every conversation I have when I do get time to come on here) but 1) I remember this being an interesting discussion, and a somewhat civil one at that, and (cont 5)
(cont 5) 2) originally I was going to make a VIDEO to respond due to length (long story short didn't happen) so here is the short version : 1) Lots of ways to try and poke holes here.. like what about people who have never read the bible, never physically seen jesus, and never recieved any evidence of the holy spirit? It doesn't matter if they were good people, it is based on belief. Furthermore, (cont 6)
(cont 6) it is not as simple as god giving us one perfect blueprint, it is more like there are many different ideas of how we should live from many different places, and the particular one that is "right" we are given no real evidence of that we can demonstrate to another person, and for whatever reason he might not decide to personally reveal himself to you (meaning you would not have a personal experience that would justify belief). (cont 7)
(cont 7) Also, ancient writings like the bible are not the best way to inform everyone about anything, let alone how they should live and what they need to believe so they don't burn for all eternity (again, I'm not perfect but I could do better), and even if that was the ONLY way for him to do so he could have done a much better job. You say, "..And the result or consequences will depend on the choices we make." (cont 8)
(cont 8) No, the consequnce of hell is only determined by ONE choice you make, and it has nothing to do with how you treated others while you were here, or even if you followed his "blueprint." You can literally ignore his blueprint all of your life, rape and kill and eat human infants every single day, and then right before you kick the bucket become "saved" and get the best reward EVER, that the bible says is so great that NO ONE deserves... (cont 9)
(cont 9) while a guy who follows another religion and does almost everything god's perfect "blueprint" demands EXCEPT they believe in some other god gets tormented forever, and ever, and ever.. THEY get the worst punishment possible. I mean... again, I'm not perfect, I'm not god (and do not want to be), I don't have all knowledge, but I'm smart enough to know SOMETHING is wrong with such a system, that this is NOT justice, and the most important point of all is so are you! (cont 10)
(cont 10) This is my main point of confusion: I don't understand why you think so many of these "dirty" little verses in the bible are.. not just.. NOT immoral, but god is supposed to be perfect and "all good," therefore his actions, or lack of action (in the case of Jeptha) are supposed to be MORAL?! I mean, first things first. Imagine you own a factory that makes some sort of life saving device, you are a big shot there, you even designed the presses and all the machinary they (cont 11)
(cont 11) use to do their work. Your competition is stiff, they produce an inferior product (which will result in deaths), and they are horribly corrupt. A worker named John comes to you and says, "hey, some of the other workers agreed that if I go kill workers in our competitor's factory, that refuse to admit that our product is superior, they will give me a promotion. Oh, since you're the boss, if you help me out, I will (cont 12)
(cont 12) put all of my family's names in a hat, pick one at random, bring them to work and throw them into press no. 3, on Wednesday at 11:03, crushing them to death in your honor. It's a promise, and I keep my promises. See you Wednesday!" What would you say to this person? Here is what I would say if I were the boss (god): 'John you are a good worker, but you are scaring the shit out of me. First, I don't want you to throw one of your family members into the press, nor (cont 13)
(cont 13) do I want you to go kill the other workers. I think it is wrong for you to kill people, and the last thing I want is you to do it because you think this is something I actually want. On the contrary, it would offend me. I actually care what happens to you, and this is unnecessary cruelty to both them and you. Next, I'M the boss, not the other workers. If you really need a promotion all you have to do is come talk to me and ask. If the other workers as well (cont 14)
(cont 14) think I would condone murder, I need to step in and set the record straight. Now, I hired you because I saw potential in you, but this kind of behavior IF ANYTHING, would make me think you are not someone I would want to put in a management position. The whole reason this factory exists is to save lives, why would I want you to kill your family or even the other factory workers? I know a lot about this product, I designed it and every machine in this factory you use. (cont 15)
(cont 15) I also know a lot about the competition; why their product will fail because it is missing one neccessary component. In fact, I mentioned it before and hardly anyone listened. It shouldn't be that hard for me to produce evidence of that, as well as evidence that our product is superior, and we could put this whole mess to bed WITHOUT any bloodshed. I can't MAKE the customers buy our product, but I can at least give them a good reason to do so.' (cont 16)
(cont 16) However, imagine this is NOT how the scenario goes. You choose to say nothing to John. It just so happens you are standing in front of the press on Wednesday at 11:02, and here comes John, him and his daughter weeping, into the factory. You KNOW she will die... it is not something you would want because you actually have morals. The switch is right in front of you. All you have to do is reach out and press the button to stop it. Instead, you watch him throw (cont 17)
(cont 17) his daughter into the press. Now, its a good point to argue that he technically CAN'T push the button without messing with John's free will, but the even more profound point is that he SAID NOTHING even while the event was unfolding before him. You want to define god as being all good, but honestly, after looking at my example would you describe the boss as "perfect?" I certainly would not. (cont 18)
(cont 18) What if you are NOT the boss, you didn't design the machines or the product, you can't control anything the boss or the other employees do.. would you STILL not be well within reason to offer a critique, or propose that there was a better way to handle the situation on ALL sides? I don't blame god for evil just because he KNEW it would happen (although that is neccessary) but also that he allows evil to happen even though he can stop it, and ESPECIALLY when it is within his (cont 19)
(cont 19) power to do so AND it does not even effect free will! Why are there volcanos, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, birth defets, cancer, plagues, etc. This "natural evil" is not neccessary, can neither be blamed on man or satan, and really has no effect on free will. If I were "god" I would KNOW all these things would happen, I have the power to change them, and choose not to. Such a lack of action would be deemed immoral if we were talking about a human, even taking into (cont 20)
(cont 20) account that a human does not have all knowledge, is not "perfect," and typically can control very little, let alone every force in the universe that allowed such an event to occur. The icing on the cake, is you want me to believe that such a being is perfect, literally the source of all morality, and that I should worship him. Even if I gave you an infinite number of examples of good things that our "boss" did, it only takes ONE such example of something less than (cont 21)
(cont 21) perfect to determine this guy is not perfect. I can't tell you "there is no god," but a critique of a particular god (with the certain characteristics we have mentioned thus far) that stands is a good reason to question some of the claims being made.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Don’t be senseless. Take the gift…or at least earnestly investigate it while you still have time. Your wages are waiting for you to collect them. Make sure you quit before Payday.
Jesus paid the fine in full on the cross so that the criminals who had violated God’s Law (the Ten Commandments) could have their cases dismissed. Upon our repentance and faith in Jesus, God terminates our case and lets us live.
@unityspirit52: If God teaches ppl to do good, but his so-called followers do bad, why blame God for it? It is not God's fault, but the individual's fault.
On the other hand, if (i'm talking about other religion here) god teaches its followers to do bad, and its followers do bad... then of course we can blame this false-god. It is both the false-god and its followers' fault.
(2) God knew what is best for us, and knew exactly how we will live our lives, but it was still our freewill choice to choose how we live our lives. I hope this is not too complicated for you.
Say God gives you two options, A & B. God knew you inside out, so he knew exactly you will choose Option B. But God did not choose for you. God did not make you choose Option B. You made that choice yourself.
So, omniscience and freewill are really not contradictory at all.
This story was told as a NEGATIVE example. ie. Don't do what he did. The fact that it's in the Bible does not mean God condones it or that it is teaching us to do the same. It was a historical fact, and God wants us to learn from it. In this story we learn not to make vows hastily, or better, not at all. Just let your "yes" be "yes", and your "no" be "no".
@SpongeElla, so you accept this occurrence as "historical fact." Let me put it this way, is it moral for me to kill someone, and then later explain to people that this is "what NOT to do?" Not only does the bible fail to mention that it "condones" such an action, but how could a loving god allow such a thing? It is entirely possible to think of a better "lesson" about our "'yes' [being] 'yes', and our 'no' [being] 'no,'" that does not involve human sacrifice. How is this moral? (cont)
(cont) Imagine I am a high school science teacher, and the day's experiment requires the use of acid. I want to teach the children a lesson about the dangers of using acid, so I fling acid into one of the student's eyes, blinding the individual. Now, I can be certain that all of the children (including the now blind student) are clearly aware of the dangers of acid. What does this say though about my methods of teaching? Have I not committed an immoral act?
@naejimba your "science teacher" illustration is not accurate, as it was not the teacher who flung the acid. The correct illustration should be this: Imagine one student accidently flung acid on the eyes of his classmate, thus blinding the classmate. The science teacher told the class the next day what happened, and asked the class to be more careful with acid in class.
Was the science teacher being immoral for telling the story? or good?
@SpongeElla, no I disagree completely. This analogy you present I find flawed. It might be best if you describe your views on predestination/election or "free will" and if they are even compatible. This is where our differences lie. Now, as for me I find omniscience and free will incompatible. The bible discusses both the ideas of free will and predestination, and I've heard arguments backed by scripture from both sides so I have no idea what you might think of the matter.
@naejimba, but you did not say how my is analogy flawed. I think not. In the Jephtah story, Jephtah used his freewill choice wrongly, and his daughter died as a result. God told the story through the bible to teach us lessons in life. Notice God did not cause the daughter's death.
You're trying to tell us that God was being immoral.. for telling us what had happened back then!
@SpongeElla, look the differences lie on our thoughts of "free will" and predestination. If predestination is present, there can be no "accident" where the student blinds the other, as it is part of some "plan." Furthermore, the science teacher is not omniscient. If god is omniscient, I feel he is ultimately responsible. I also feel that omniscience and "free will" are incompatible, and one could make the argument that if god is both omniscient and perfect that he himself would not have (cont)
(cont) "free will." You say you find my reasoning flawed, but I don't know if you understand my position. I do not know your position on the matter, so if we are to have any meaningful conversation the most logical place to start is to express your position on "free will and predestination, as well as what characteristics you attribute to "god." (omniscience, omnipresence, etc). Now, there are many ways I could critique any given position on the "judeo-christian god," as I find him (cont 2)
(cont 2) logically contradicting according to most "definitions" of him (and I typically cite bible verses to counter the "cherry picking" I see in most christians)..... but I'm left merely trying to "guess" at how to counter your position... which I do not yet fully know. Again, if you wish to have a conversation it is obvious it cannot continue unless you elaborate on what your specific beliefs are... I'm trying to avoid a straw man, and am tired of having to assume when it is not necessary.
@naejimba: Fair enough. I'll state my position then. I do not believe in predestination. I believe that God, although all-knowing (omnicient), would not generally intervene in human affairs for the reason that He respects our freewill choice. He has given us this power to choose our actions, and with that, the consequences that ensue.
However, our loving God has also provided a way out. An "escape clause", so to speak. (cont)
(cont) The "escape clause" is this: We may use our power of freewill choice to choose to call upon God, to ask Him to intervene. And if we do so, God has promised in his Word that he will intervene in our favour.
Simply put: If we choose to live our lives apart from God, then we're left to fend for ourselves. We are subject to the natural consequences of our own actions as well as actions of others. But if we choose to believe in God, then God will guide us and protect us supernaturally
@naejimba: You said, "If God is omniscient, he is ultimately responsible". Erroneous belief. You shouldn't blame God for whatever that went wrong simply bcos He knew it might happen, or will happen.
God had given us his instructions of how to live right, and has promised to intervene if we call upon Him for help. If we were stubborn to choose our own ways, why blame God for the consequences?
@SpongeElla, there are many ways to approach this argument. I will start by pointing out some bible verses which talk about predestination. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:4-5). "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, (cont)
(cont) according to the good pleasure of His will," (Ephesians 1:4,5). “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” (Jeremiah 29:11). So, to begin with, I will accuse you of "cherry picking." Beyond this, you completely ignore the "omniscience free will paradox." If you were to claim that he has a general "plan" but that we are somehow able to make choices... (cont 2)
(cont 2) this goes entirely against omniscience. Omniscience means having "ALL knowledge" and you seem to agree on this point. The more information you have, the more accurately you can predict the future. If one were able to know every possible variable down to the most minute detail, one would be able to flawlessly predict the future. Essentially, such a "god" contains all information on what has happened as well as what WILL happen. (cont 3)
(cont 3) According the the verses above, it is clear that he would have known every possible consequence of every action he would ever make before he created anything. Now, if you want to argue that omniscience means god HIMSELF does not have free will because of this, that is another argument and we could perhaps consider that god is not responsible for anything. However, I fail to see how any other line of reasoning can lead you to the idea that god is NOT responsible for everything. (cont 4)
(cont 4) According to the bible he created everything that is. IF we view god as having free will, if he had wished something else to occur.. then it would be. Essentially, every minute detail, every variable HAS to be predetermined since he could forsee every consequence, and since he is perfect (which I think you would agree upon and there is lots of verses to back it up) he could not make a "less than perfect" decision... (cont 5)
(cont 5) so everything that is and will ever be is exactly the way he wanted it to be. Essentially, if god is omniscient the concept of "free will" is merely an illusion from our limited perspective. Furthermore, everything including that which we view as "good" or "bad" must be predetermined since he contains all knowledge and created everything that is. Now, if you disagree with this you must explain why. (cont 6)
(cont 6) Beyond this, if god is either not omniscient or not perfect, you must explain why we should call such a thing a "god" and, more importantly, why such a being deserves any sort of worship. Even more important than this, the bible talks about all of these concepts and (in attempting to counter any approach you might take) I am already thinking of verses which directly contradict each other concerning such matters. (cont 7)
(cont 7) Basically, I could argue beginning from verses on free will to the conclusion that god is not omniscient.. but the bible says he is. Free will and omniscience are indirectly logically contradictory. Now, as for your other claims, I find it humerous that god need create a "loop hole" to his own plan... if he is omniscient would he not forsee this? Would not it be more logical then to use a plan that does not need to be amended? (cont 8)
(cont 8) Furthermore, I would contend that a being who is "perfect" is unable to make a "less than perfect" decision, meaning he literally could not "change his mind"... meaning he could not amend his plan (see where this is going?) [**note** if you disagree with this there are plenty of verse in which god "changes his mind"]... it is another contradiction concerning the nature of the judeo-christian god. (cont 9)
(cont 9) You also said, "and [god] has promised to intervene if we call upon Him for help." and "...if we choose to believe in God, then God will guide us and protect us supernaturally." Today, in Ethiopia, christianity (particular orthodox christianity) is the largest religion. Furthermore, it is actually one of the oldest christian countries in the world, offically adopting christianity as the state religion in the 4th century. (cont 10)
(cont 10) It also has a horrendous history of drought and famine, the "great famine" in the 1980s saw about ONE MILLION people die of starvation! These people believe in god, where is there "supernatural protection?" Why did god not intervene? I could imagine mothers crying out to god for help as they watched their children die a slow and agonizing death... while I currently sit in an air conditioned house with food in the fridge and clean water to drink and (cont 11)
(1) God has plans for our lives, and has given the blueprint (the Bible) of that plan for us to follow. God also himself came and show us by example (Jesus). More than that, He also gave us a 'coach' to guide us 24/7 (Holy Spirit). God has given us everything we need to succeed in life!
We have the choice whether to follow the blueprint, and to what extent we want to follow it. And the result or consequences will depend on the choices we make.
@SpongeElla, basically, when I get a chance I will respond via personal message since already my response to this is quite long (and not nearly complete).
@naejimba: Sure! Looking forward to a meaningful discussion with you. I hope to help you see that God is really a good God. I'm sure you'll like him, if you know Him better.
(3) It seems to me, your problem is that you blame God for every evil in the world simply for the reason that He knew this would happen. Where's the logic? You have blamed the wrong guy! God is the good guy. You failed to consider there might be someone else who is responsible - our sinful human nature, and the devil who is seeking to destroy us.
It is totally unfair to blame God for our own actions.
(4) "Predestination" in the bible does not mean everything is set by God, and we have no choice but to follow his plan. It simply means that God has a perfect plan for us, that if we choose to follow this plan (ie. live our lives God's way), then we will be all that we could be.
(5) The bible contains many passages where God promised supernatural provision and protection to His people. We Christians have the right to claim these promises, by virtue of Jesus' shed blood on the cross. In order to claim it, we must (1) Know God's promises in the bible, (2) Believe that God is able and willing to keep his word, and (3) Claim the promise by our spoken word in Jesus' name.
In my personal experience I can testify that it worked for me, many times over.
(6) On the issue on suffering Christians (without any disrespect to them), my view is that the main reason is WRONG BELIEF. Some reasons i can think of (1) Not aware that such promises are in the bible, (2) Wrong belief that miracles are things of the past, that God no longer works miracles, (3) Wrong belief that God wants to punish us for our sins (after being justified by faith through the blood of Christ), and (4) Unaware of our authority we have in Christ, and how to exercise this authority
@naejimba: Now you're saying that the "science teacher" analogy is not appropriate. But you were the one who used it first. I was merely arguing along this line.
Should we blame the teacher for allowing the experiment to go on, bcos he 'knew' that if students play with acid someone will get hurt?
God is a good God. God wants good things for us. He sent the Bible to guide us, sent us prophets and teachers. Even sent his beloved Son to live among us and to die for our sins.
@SpongeElla, no you don't understand what I'm saying about the analogy, but it doesn't matter it has outlived its use and I see you define your position in another post and I'll respond to it there.
@naejimba You must bear in mind that it was not God who killed the girl. The bible merely reported that Jephthah killed the girl. God allowed such evil because He gave us humans a freewill choice - a power to choose our actions, and these actions will affect other ppl, as other's actions affect us. But we must all give an account of our actions on earth at the judgment day. Not only that, but God also provided us a WAY OUT while we are still on earth. (cont)
@SpongeElla, again, I wonder about your beliefs concerning predestination and free will. Other than that, you just make a lot of highly improbable claims but provide no sort of evidence or logical argument in support of any of them.
(cont) God gives us (who believe in Jesus as our Savior) the Holy Spirit, who will lead us to make the right choices, and he also gives us guardian angels to protect us from harm that may be caused by the actions of others. (this is available to those who believe and claim God promises in Psalm 91)
when bad things happen to good people or innocents its a natural compulsion for the human mind to ask if God is a loving God then why does he allow such tragedy? is he cruel? but consider that God has already planned for his kingdom to be one that will last forever and no one will be hurt. The violence and death and a host of other horrors of our present world will pass away and in this respect i hope many will find the encouragement to believe on him
@jasminesdeath did you mean sacrifice his living life? now that would've been worthy. Not like great great but it would've been something. Anyway missing the point that god's grace is just that we don't have to earn it. We just have to open up and accept it thanks to Jesus being the great sacrifice now. It's funny peeps accept a lion dying for naughty edward in narnia but it's harder to accept Jesus dying for us in real life. - rambling now woops
@jasminesdeath, I've been reading your comments I'm going to jump in here too "God has already planned for his kingdom to be one that will last forever and no one will be hurt." What about the vast majority of humanity, that was created knowing full well they would be punished eternally for finite crimes? The "violence and death and a host of other horrors of our present world" will pass away for some, but for most, the most unspeakable horrors imaginable lies ahead. Would not a more (cont)
(cont) "just" or "ethical" version of hell simply be for someone to experience all the pain they caused others, and then the punishment ceases? I fail to see how the god of the bible is just.. and.. ultimately even with my "new and improved" hell there is one glaring problem. Salvation is based on belief, not actions! Ghandi would be in "hell" while theoretically Adolf HItler could have "accepted Jesus into his heart" right before he chomped down on the cyanide capsule and blew his (cont 2)
God did not require Jephthah to make that vow, however, i think a more honorable response Jephthah would have told the Lord " Lord i cannot keep my vow to you and kill my own daughther allow me to sacrifice myself instead so she may grow up and have a family, i think the Lord would have agreed to this. Self sacrifice is the whole underlying theme of the bible. It says there is no greater love than for a man to lay down his life for his friends, or in this case his daughter.
@jasminesdeath you pretty much just said it's ok to commit suicide for god??? (this is what suicide bombers are doing). I disagree I don't believe god would have been ok with any sacrifice involving the death of one of his beloved children. The minute we assume what god prefers we fail because we simply cannot assume the mind of god, we can wonder but. This is why God had to send his son, to teach people how to live for him and for others. Did you mean kill himself? or?
@naejimba hahaha dude you think too much, so do I and sometimes it's a flaw.... The more we find out the less we know... It kinda sux really???... I reckon u want someone to prove you wrong am I right?
@FatAis, how is thinking too much a flaw? Furthermore, it is not that I "want" someone to prove me wrong... although I would not be opposed to it either... my views on how one should view an error are changing quite dramatically, but that is another matter I suppose.
@naejimba you can't think of one time you over thought something and got absolutely nowhere?... Have you never experienced the cycle of endless thought, never been trapped in a circle of thought? It's frustrating and a waste of time especially those times at night before sleeping... p.s have you read screwtape letters? perhaps you would figure things about God if they were given to you backwards? anyhoo...
@FatAis, no, not anymore at least. I embrace cognitive dissonance, I embrace change, and I am trying to become comfortable with uncertainty. Any "circle" I encounter is either some form of circular logic, which I can identify as an invalid line of reasoning, or perhaps it might mean one is encountering cognitive dissonance.. which one should investigate further. As for screwtape letters, I have not read it although I'm sure I would find it interesting.
@naejimba yea tru? but investigating those circles are frustrating and gaww my head these days is like an unorganized file cabinet after being overloaded in my youth these days I find it hard to still. Most of the time my over thinking will stop me from sometimes just seeing the obvious you know?... I'm one of those thinking back and looking soo hard to find my keys only to realise when I stop they're in my pocket. :L hahaha
To be absolutely clear, God is love, Satan and his fallen angels are hate, all the devil has to do is sow the seed of doubt in your mind to keep you intelluctualizing forever because you lean to your own carnal understanding. Once you know the love of God all understanding will be given to you concerning the questions you muddle over in your finite mind everyday.
@naejimba, God didn't create satan as satan. satan or lucifer sinned in his heart for coveting the throne of God in heaven, henceforth was cast out. When he saw how much God loved mankind he was jealous because his position in heaven was lost. ever since he has hated Gods creation and humans. He is a liar, theif, murderer and coward. He made himself who he is by his rebellion just as man made his sinful nature by rebellion.
@jasminesdeath, " God didn't create satan as satan. satan or lucifer sinned in his heart." Couldn't I just contend that since god has all knowledge he would have KNOWN that creating him the way he did would lead to these consequences? Since he is perfect as well, if he would have seen such consequences as "less than perfect" he would have created him somewhat different... also bringing up that "all works according to his will" one could argue that this is EXACTLY (cont)
(cont) what god wanted to happen, that it is part of his plan. Furthermore, I noticed you did not even comment on, say, the logical contradiction of a being with all knowledge who is also perfect, you literally ignored my every contention! "He made himself who he is by his rebellion just as man made his sinful nature by rebellion." Ok... but didn't god create both satan and man, supposedly? Again, I could point out that god is omniscient and present the same argument (cont 2)
(cont 2) I have presented several times. You are merely avoiding the issue. "To be absolutely clear, God is love, Satan and his fallen angels are hate..." Could I not critique this as the psychological defense mechanism of "splitting" used in this case to avoid any cognitive dissonance one finds with the conflicting nature of god as depicted in the bible? (cont 3)
(cont 3) Important to note is NONE your comments have addressed the main contention presented in the video, nor have they addressed any contentions I have brought forth in our discussion. "all the devil has to do is sow the seed of doubt in your mind to keep you intelluctualizing forever because you lean to your own carnal understanding." (cont 4)
(cont 4) This "seed of doubt" you mention I would contend is a healthy thing. Doubt essentially means to be uncertain about something, or to hesitate to believe. Nothing is sacred in the search for truth, and no idea should be held in such a lofty place that it is above critique. "Once you know the love of God all understanding will be given to you concerning the questions you muddle over in your finite mind everyday." (cont 5)
(cont 5) Really?! Fantastic! Since you "know the love of god" you would therefore have "all understanding," meaning you should be able to answer EVERY one of my questions, address the logical contradictions I brought up, and effortlessly counter every point I've made thus far. So... why is it that you have not adressed any of these things? =/
@naejimba. even if there is any grain of truth in your statement, i see you are not saying anything about satan contributing to mankinds tragedys consider that. Yes god is responsible for his creation. which is why he died for it to reconcile it back to himself. Our sinful natures were created when we disobeyed God in the garden of Eden
@jasminesdeath, well I could say something about satan, but right after that I could say that since god created satan with complete knowledge of every horrible thing he would ever do, any awful thing that I happen to bring up I could turn around and say that god is just as responsible... (if not moreso or entirely responsible, depending on one's views of predeterminism as described in the bible as well as "free will" and if the two are even compatable). (cont)
(cont) Furthermore, one could argue that even god doesn't have free will (something I will present in a second) "Yes god is responsible for his creation. which is why he died for it to reconcile it back to himself." So... god has a perfect plan that involves having to kill himself to save us from the sin that HE HIMSELF created us with? (remember, ultimately he is responsible) If god is all powerful and all knowing, why must he amend his own rules? (cont 2)
(cont 2) Another classic example is the story of the flood. God sees the wickedness of man and is "grieved" by his creation, deciding to flood the world, killing EVERYTHING but noah, some of noah's family, and the animals that were on the ark. He is literally "wiping the slate clean" and starting over again. However, if he has all knowledge, he would have known before he created these people exactly what they would do, and that he would be somehow displeased with them (cont 3)
(cont 3) (which is funny since he is the one that created them that way) and would have to destroy them. Also, if he is perfect, shouldn't he have gotten it right the first time? It would seem as if god changed his mind. ... but how can a perfect being that knows everything change their mind? To change one's mind would mean one had considered a BETTER way to do or think about something... (cont 4)
(cont 4) but if he already can consider every possible option he would have known this to be somehow "less than perfect" and if his every action is perfect then how could he possibly do something "less than perfect" to first have something to change his mind about? Personally I think, if such a god exists, one could make the argument that not only do humans and satan not really have "free will," but one could also argue that god himself (cont 5)
(cont 5) (if he is unable to change his mind, the bible contradicts itself on this) could not have it as well! .. but you might contend that this line of reasoning could allow us to say that even god is not "responsible" for his actions if he does not have free will, literally meaning no one is responsible for anything, meaning this completely contradicts my previous statements! That is entirely my point, that the judeo-christian god is logically contradicting (more about that in a sec) (cont 6)
(cont 6) See how just merely thinking about the subject leads us around in circles and ultimately leads to direct contracitions? I'll give you an example. How a god can be both perfect and all powerful? (and I could site scripture to support both notions) If we start with the idea of perfection, this means he cannot do something deemed "less than perfect." Now, if god cannot do something, he cannot be all powerful. (cont 7)
(cont 7) If we start from him being all powerful, god can literally do anything, meaning he in fact CAN do something "less than perfect," meaning he cannot be perfect. What the hell is the point of all this? You cannot disprove a negative unless it is logically contradicting. I cannot disprove aliens, bigfoot, or the tooth fairy unless I can show them to be logically contradicting. Since I JUST showed the judeo-christian god to be logically contradicting, have I not just disproved him?
How can you say god is cruel? He died a extreme graphic violent death on the cross to show how much he loved us. He didnt have to do this. It is man's sinful nature that is cruel. Look at the world around you how much tragedy there is in it. When the Lord comes back his kingdom will be one of peace. love, and no violence or death.
@jasminesdeath, "It is man's sinful nature that is cruel." .. and god himself created our "sinful nature" and as creator he would therefore ultimately be the source of this cruelty. "Look at the world around you how much tragedy there is in it." Tragedy that is supposedly part of his "perfect" plan. Again, since the bible says that all works according to the will of god, and is very clear that he created this world, he is ultimately responsible for that creation. Theists are so quick to (cont)
(cont) attribute all that they deem "good" to god, but one must understand that an omnipotent and omniscient creator is also just as responsible for that which is deemed "bad." Even if you want to use the pyschological defense mechanism of splitting and attribute everything "bad" to satan.... god would have created satan, meaning ultimately he is responsible. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
@MCRandLP4ever god is a lie but he said something??? FAIL :L obviously you don't make sense and furthermore you are probably incapable of knowing why you FAIL... shotgun brahzzz
@Drewmck79 fail.. actually she was following her dad blindly because as I found out after wondering bout her reaction that's how woman of her time and culture were raised to be. Marriage was the purpose if she was to die then what of her purpose in the world?
Believe it or not christians do question god, as psalm 22 shows. Jesus asked for another path but as he knows god will is always right he succumbed to gods will.
It's human nature to desire reduction of our cognitive dissonance, it's a tricky balancing act, a skill. I guess it's different for me, I've encountered God many times and probably will in the future. He gave me a necklace once tru.:L I still have to go over things to understand since I have that need, but I have peace with him, who he is and not who I think he is.
do you think god is responsible for the sin of man?// Are parents responsible for the sins of their kids? If so then we should render ourselves sterile?//should God not allow anyone life?? Granted you may misunderstand what the bible is saying and twist my words to fit your shallow logic but it won't reveal truth. One must comprehend the evidence before one can be lead to the truth.
@FatAis, that analogy is horribly flawed. Parents are not omniscient and have very limited control over "creating" a child. For instance, if a child is born with some deformity or is mentally retarded, do we typically blame the parents? True, something like, say, malnutrition (cited as one potential cause of mental retardation) during pregnancy may or may NOT be in the control of the parents, but things like chromosomal abnormalities and inherited metabolic disorders are not. God, however (cont)
(cont) is supposedly all powerful and all knowing, meaning not only does he have complete control over every variable but also knows the consequence of each possible action... meaning he alone bears the ultimate responsibility for his creation. A more useful approach would perhaps be to discuss your views on "free will" and biblical predeterminism (as well as if the two are even compatible).
@naejimba oh that last little part bout the blinded in anger thing I was just referring to this last week testing me haha in which i failed... anyways....
@naejimba hmmm whats goin on here.... There's alot to read... so to draw conclusion on everything you just said (to me) and it may sound light, shallow or typical of a 'god lover' lol. Where you say his 'ultimate responsibility' I see his 'ultimate plan'. Where your train of thought led, I agree. The difference is I trust that everything unfolding must have an ultimate good ending. I choose to be hopeful that yes he is in control and that his will is good. Even when I am blinded in anger haha.
@FatAis, if I wanted to be mean I could say that is a "cop out" for addressing my specific points of contention. That is not why I'm here though.. that would be another post. You may find THIS comment shallow or typical of a 'god hater'... is not what you are describing merely the concept of "faith?" It is almost as if you are saying you acknowledge my points and perhaps even the cognitive dissonance they present, "Where your train of thought led, I agree." .. but continue on to explain (cont)
(cont) that you "trust" that you "choose" (and I would argue that belief is a sub-set of knowledge and therefore not a choice for a rational person) .. that you just simply believe irregardless. I can't speculate about your motives... that is fallacious, but I would ask, does this in any way have something to do with what you WANT to be true?
@naejimba I should point out the part of your train of thought I agree with is; 'god however is supposedly..........each possible action'... He may bear the responsibility for his creation and he may have an ultimate plan to fulfill this responsibility. When you say he's responsible for his creation it sounds as if your blaming him for the bad stuff?...
@FatAis, I'm not sure how else to put it. If he is responsible for everything, everything would include things we think "good" as well as things we think are "bad." Since supposedly he created all there is he alone would be responsible for... all there is good and bad. The bible conflicts over whether or not he is "the author of evil" so I guess you can do what most theists do, choose which ever one makes the most sense and "cherry pick" information, and then ignore any remaining (cont)
@naejimba nah I won't cherry pick I like to scrutinize every little detail of whats in front of me. The old testament used to really have me frustrated, It's wide open to interpretation then I was told that the new testament is to live by and the old is to learn from. When ever I find a contradiction or if I read something that doesn't add up right away I'll study it. It's funny I can go back to something I thought I had figured and I'll find even more. It's amazing what we miss.
@FatAis, well good. I'm glad you surprised me. I think the conversation is getting quite more interesting now. =)
You have an interesting technique to deal with the cognitive dissonance though, its as if you side step it. It's a cute, catchy little phrase that basically means, "the new testament is perfect, the old testament is... meh, just ignore the parts about genocide, infanticide, stoning disobedient children and gays... oh, and the part with the talking donkey." You know, for (cont)
(cont) most of my life I was a christian, just like you. I couldn't stop with the old testament though. Just as you were told this, I was told many things. I was told the bible was the word of god. Then I was told the old testament was "symbolic" or "spiritual" in some parts, like the creation story. I have a video which defends quite well a literal interpretation of the creation story, citing scripture and commenting on what the meaning of the original hebrew words used (check it out) (cont)
(cont) either way, I found the same kinds of contradictions within the new testament (try reading the gospels accounts of whom visits jesus's tomb side by side) within the new testament. Furthermore, the claims of the old testament I could not bring myself to believe due to finding them highly improbable and having no evidence to support it... was just as improbable as a claim of, say, a virgin birth or resurrection from the dead. ... and if parts of the bible are inaccurate, how can we (cont 2)
(cont 2) be certain of, say, the two examples I listed... highly improbable claims with no direct evidence to support any of it? The virgin birth and resurrection from the dead are two things most christians would believe in, if one finds the source to be questionable does not one have to question the validity of such claims? I've also been told those same arguments of various "interpretations," "symbolic," or "spiritual meanings" for various problems with the new testament as well. =/
@naejimba I know muslims say how can a virgin give birth. Yet they believe Allah is all powerful? but what he can't create a baby in the womb of a virgin?- So he is not all powerful?. It's like saying alright he's all powerful but he can't do that.... He can create life but he cannot bring it back when it dies?.... Nothing is impossible, I reckon there is logic to everything we just don't know it all.
@FatAis, well... I would say nothing is impossible myself, save something which is logically contradicting.. like a three sided square... or what I was rambling about earlier concerning the nature of the judeo-christian god. Now, for some reason you are completely able to ignore any of this cognitive dissonance, (as I would argue such a being could not be possible) so we will use a different approach. I'm sure we would both agree both of these claims are highly improbable (cont)
(cont) .. meaning they are not something we would think "likely" to happen. If I told you I was born from a virgin and that I died for three days and then rose back from the dead would you believe me? I doubt you would, and I would think you gullible if so. So you see, it is not the probability of the claim having anything to do with whether you believe or not, it is its association with "god." (cont 2)
(cont 2) I contend that therefore using such logic, you could literally believe in ANY highly improbable claim if it happened to be in your particular "holy book." For instance, if I took the story of Jonah and the big fish and replaced it with Jack and the beanstalk, and it was part of your holy book all of your life would you be able to determine this? Do they not both contain highly improbable claims? (cont 3)
(cont 3) What of other religions, if you grew up elsewhere (I see you are in New Zealand, largely christian after european colonization) perhaps you would believe in "god", but perhaps it might be allah instead? Now, I ask you how can you determine that the claims of your religion are superior? How can you determine your assumed highly improbable claims are the "correct ones?" (cont 4)
(cont 4) .. and even such a notion I find humerous since in order for it to be a theistic position the hypothesis of "god" no matter how it is defined, must be present and is merely an assumption. The weakness of this position is it begins with an answer and looks for evidence which supports the original assumption, comitting the confirmation bias at the step of searching for information. (cont 5)
(cont 5) The strength of a position such as mine is not that even the most basic assumptions we all must make (and beyond that I think we should carry as few as possible) CAN change, it is that they MUST change. It is not necessarily your conclusions I take issue with, it is how you arrive at them that I question.
@naejimba ?? you ramble on so much u end up completely blind-sighted to the 'possibles' other than your own one track. Here's an idea try not to ask questions and then answer them yourself it's soo annoying. You draw narrow conclusion upon narrow conclusion until there are so much twists it is impossible to decipher/relay them given the lack of characters allowed :L we can def agree on the conflict of how ea other arrives at conclusions.
@naejimba Did it sound that way? I ddnt intend it to sound that way. The old testament has it's place in my search. I'm sure there are things I can draw wisdom from. I reckon if it were enough though there would be no need for the new testament. Gods message is in there
. As for the contradiction of jesus resurrection it's typical of witnesses with different perspectives. The writer can only interpret something they weren't personally attending. Generally you get the jist of it.
@naejimba yep at the age of 4 I did lay in bed at night wanting there to be more to life. I did want to know that good existed further than me. I wanted to know that a day would come where it would all make sense and every tear I cried in those times wasn't for nothing. That their would be a happy ending somewhere. That it wasn't all for nothing. And boom God spoke to me (not in voice) just a 'knowing' can't explain it. But ever since then.....
@FatAis, so this is then your personal justification (quite debatable... I don't mean to be rude) that I was referring to. Still to this day I myself lay in bed at night wishing there was more to life.. I can "wish" many things, however, when one grows up they realize that merely desiring something has no effect on reality. Only our actions can, and the effects of most individuals in a given society are quite limited. Is not this the cognitive bias known as "wishful thinking?"
@naejimba...... I've known he existed and that he loves me. Still doesn't make life easy though, quite the opposite actually. But can't prove any of it, isn't that the way??
@FatAis, ... ok. Would you define this as faith, as I would? "But can't prove any of it, isn't that the way??" The way one "proves" something is to present some type of evidence. Evidence must be demonstrable or it does not really "prove" anything to another person, does it? I call this faith then, some definitions of faith are: "a strong belief without evidence," or "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." Point is you cannot produce some form of evidence (cont)
(cont) to convince me. Now, you might have personal experience, meaning you have a personal justification for belief (and even that can be questioned but for me to do so would be merely speculative, such attempts are best reserved for the individual) but that is another matter.
@naejimba not sure actually I think faith is in the people who devote themselves to god without ever really encountering him. They to me are pretty darn faithful. Me however I've seen a thousand times now and I still can't walk a straight line. For me isn't it less than faith because I have seen? I dunno feels like less.
I know the whole 'encounter with god' thing is questionable. I questioned those encounters pretty early in life after countless encounters :L I'm 110% sure it's all real.
@FatAis, first of all.. I'm a bit confused. "Me however I've seen [god] a thousand times now.." So you have that much personal experience?.. but all you offered so far was that when you were little you wished for something enough and now you just "know" its true? Is this not merely "emotional reasoning" a type of cognitive distortion?.. Essentially, "I feel it, therefore it must be true." This is a psychological defense mechanism against cognitive dissonance, and is related to the logical (cont)
1. No where does it say that Jeff actually burned her
2. No where does it say that God needed or wanted the vow.
3. No where does it say that she bewailed her death but rather her virginity
4. There are several reasons that prove that Jeff couldnt have burned her.
5. But he did offer her into service of the Lord
6.The woman lamented which has the connotation that they praised and celebrated her 4x /year.
j919or 3 months ago
@unityspirit52 so did god allow him to win the battle? doesnt he know the future? if he knew the first thing coming out of that door would be Jephte`s child, he wouldnt allow him to win. Nobody said god did it, just that god didnt intervene. By the way, he didnt order this time, but he did order so many other times...like when that guy ws picking up sticks on the floor on a sabath day, and he was killed because god said not to work on a sabath. and many other stories are in the old testament.
bekacynthia 6 months ago
@bekacynthia God is a God of his word. He gave us this gift called "freewill choice", and won't simply intervene just bcos he knew we'd make a wrong choice. Imagine a mother telling her child, "Today is your birthday, and you get to choose where to eat." Then when the child chooses, she says, "Restaurant A? Not healthy. Restaurant B? Too expensive. Restaurant C? Too far away. You can only choose Restaurant D." Do you get what I mean? If she keeps intervening she's not really letting him choose
SpongeElla 5 months ago
@SpongeElla
But she'd SURELY say "Restaurant Z?? Where they offer the uncooked flesh of dead leprous? NO WAY!!!"
God, on the other hand, would NOT let us choose, but make the choice for us - because he created everything and knows everything in advance, so we have no free will...
...and he'd still push us to the Z!
Like he did with the Pharaoh, remember??!!!!!
grozde 5 months ago
@grozde I don't really get what you mean. God would not let us choose, but will push us to Restaurant Z??
But, did God ever do that? Never in my life, at least... in my years of following Jesus (more than 20 years), never that God would push me to do something that is bad for me... Always he will let me choose, and he will even cause me to have the desire to choose the good path for myself.
What about Pharoah?
SpongeElla 5 months ago
@SpongeElla
Let me explain. A loving mother would PREVENT you from disastrous choices on the price of your free will. God would not!
God CREATED the disastrous outcome.
God KNOWS IN ADVANCE everything and everything happens according to his PLAN. So it's PLANNED BY HIM for us to be making bad choices, it's planed by him that we shall go to hell.
About the pharaoh: are you a Christian? How come you haven't read your Bible?
Check out if your god deprived the pharaoh from free will and WHY!
grozde 5 months ago
@grozde
In my earlier Illustration of Restaurant A, B and C, I was trying to explain about the concept of "choice".
Now, you are asking about whether a good God would Prevent us from making a wrong choice.
Let me take the illustration further. Suppose this child is now a teenager and tells his mom, "I don't want you to rule over me.. I can make my own living and decide things for myself. I don't need you. I don't want you." and starts to pack.
What would this mother do? Lock up the child?
SpongeElla 4 months ago
@grozde You are trying to say God "hardened" Pharoah's heart, depriving him of free will..
Exd 9:12 "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.."
Exd 10:20 "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart..."
But, pls consider these verses also...
Exodus 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."
1 Samuel 6.6 "Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? ..."
So how?
SpongeElla 4 months ago
@SpongeElla
"So how" what?
grozde 4 months ago
@SpongeElla
'Following Jesus for 20 years'.
Has he ever ducked quickly into a back alley just to try and lose you? I just wondered.
'Always he will let me choose'
Incorrect. According to you, God both made up the rules AND, being all seeing and all knowing, already knows what you are going to choose. Remember, this is your fucked up logic, not mine.
Uberlaser 5 months ago
@Uberlaser
God trying to lose me? Never in my experience. He is always wanting me to come to him, always ready and waiting for me..
God already knew what I was going to choose... but still, the choice was mine to make... he didn't force me to make that choice...
My logic is quite sound, if you ask me... nothing is wrong with my logic..
SpongeElla 4 months ago
@SpongeElla Actually, no he didn't according to your book of farie tales, he wiped out the entire planet for people excercising thier free choice.
TheThunderduck 3 months ago
@TheThunderduck
God gives us a freewill to choose our actions. But God as the Righteous Judge must also punish sin. He cannot let sin reign unabated.
However, if you read and understand the bible, you will see that God loves mercy and seldom exercise judgment unless absolutely necessary. Even in the OT, more often than not God will forgive and forgive.. His nature is that if there's any excuse for Him to relent from punishing, he will use it, to give us the opportunity to repent.
SpongeElla 3 months ago
@SpongeElla I have read the Bible, it's what made me an Atheist. You God is a horrible monster.
TheThunderduck 3 months ago
@SpongeElla, I'm going to jump in, if I may. What TheThunderduck was referring to included global infanticide. What horrible sin did a newborn commit to deserve to die? It would be like finding a woman guilty of murder, and deciding it is just to kill the child along with her. This does not sound like a righteous judge. Also, you say god "seldom exercise[s] judgment unless absolutely necessary," and that "if there's any excuse for Him to relent from punishing, he will use it, to give us (cont)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont) the opportunity to repent." One, I don't think it is "necessary" to kill lots of infants, and if that is the BEST an all powerful being can come up with to solve the problem (which technically he created in the first place), he could have done a lot better. I think if the only way I can punish the woman for murder is to kill her kids, that is a good "excuse," as you put it, to refrain from doing so or (more importantly) find a better plan of action (which he SHOULD be able to do). (cont 2
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 2) Beyond this, the infant didn't do anything wrong to begin with to repent from. Also, the massive destruction that would have occured to all other forms of life is completely unnecessary (and gives added problems like inbreeding depression and the fact that most plant life would be dead which easily shows it is impossible). I do not have all knowledge and I can envision a better plan. Either way, if I had a gun to your head and told you that you could choose to sit on the (cont 3)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 3) couch or the chair, but then informed you that if you sat in the chair I would blow your brains out, that is effecting your free will. Yes, you can still choose, but that is like the mafia making you "a deal you can't refuse." Best part is, shooting you dead is a miniscule amount of suffering compared to eternal torment. No, wait.. even BETTER is that this punishment is not technically based off your actions, but your belief (and in something of which (cont 4)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 4) no empirical evidence is provided, and I purposely made conflicting sets of beliefs that make similar claims and have just as much supporting "evidence").. Now, I know it seems I'm picking on you and I know I NEVER got around to answering your last comments (its so hard to keep track of every conversation I have when I do get time to come on here) but 1) I remember this being an interesting discussion, and a somewhat civil one at that, and (cont 5)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 5) 2) originally I was going to make a VIDEO to respond due to length (long story short didn't happen) so here is the short version : 1) Lots of ways to try and poke holes here.. like what about people who have never read the bible, never physically seen jesus, and never recieved any evidence of the holy spirit? It doesn't matter if they were good people, it is based on belief. Furthermore, (cont 6)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 6) it is not as simple as god giving us one perfect blueprint, it is more like there are many different ideas of how we should live from many different places, and the particular one that is "right" we are given no real evidence of that we can demonstrate to another person, and for whatever reason he might not decide to personally reveal himself to you (meaning you would not have a personal experience that would justify belief). (cont 7)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 7) Also, ancient writings like the bible are not the best way to inform everyone about anything, let alone how they should live and what they need to believe so they don't burn for all eternity (again, I'm not perfect but I could do better), and even if that was the ONLY way for him to do so he could have done a much better job. You say, "..And the result or consequences will depend on the choices we make." (cont 8)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 8) No, the consequnce of hell is only determined by ONE choice you make, and it has nothing to do with how you treated others while you were here, or even if you followed his "blueprint." You can literally ignore his blueprint all of your life, rape and kill and eat human infants every single day, and then right before you kick the bucket become "saved" and get the best reward EVER, that the bible says is so great that NO ONE deserves... (cont 9)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 9) while a guy who follows another religion and does almost everything god's perfect "blueprint" demands EXCEPT they believe in some other god gets tormented forever, and ever, and ever.. THEY get the worst punishment possible. I mean... again, I'm not perfect, I'm not god (and do not want to be), I don't have all knowledge, but I'm smart enough to know SOMETHING is wrong with such a system, that this is NOT justice, and the most important point of all is so are you! (cont 10)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 10) This is my main point of confusion: I don't understand why you think so many of these "dirty" little verses in the bible are.. not just.. NOT immoral, but god is supposed to be perfect and "all good," therefore his actions, or lack of action (in the case of Jeptha) are supposed to be MORAL?! I mean, first things first. Imagine you own a factory that makes some sort of life saving device, you are a big shot there, you even designed the presses and all the machinary they (cont 11)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 11) use to do their work. Your competition is stiff, they produce an inferior product (which will result in deaths), and they are horribly corrupt. A worker named John comes to you and says, "hey, some of the other workers agreed that if I go kill workers in our competitor's factory, that refuse to admit that our product is superior, they will give me a promotion. Oh, since you're the boss, if you help me out, I will (cont 12)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 12) put all of my family's names in a hat, pick one at random, bring them to work and throw them into press no. 3, on Wednesday at 11:03, crushing them to death in your honor. It's a promise, and I keep my promises. See you Wednesday!" What would you say to this person? Here is what I would say if I were the boss (god): 'John you are a good worker, but you are scaring the shit out of me. First, I don't want you to throw one of your family members into the press, nor (cont 13)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 13) do I want you to go kill the other workers. I think it is wrong for you to kill people, and the last thing I want is you to do it because you think this is something I actually want. On the contrary, it would offend me. I actually care what happens to you, and this is unnecessary cruelty to both them and you. Next, I'M the boss, not the other workers. If you really need a promotion all you have to do is come talk to me and ask. If the other workers as well (cont 14)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 14) think I would condone murder, I need to step in and set the record straight. Now, I hired you because I saw potential in you, but this kind of behavior IF ANYTHING, would make me think you are not someone I would want to put in a management position. The whole reason this factory exists is to save lives, why would I want you to kill your family or even the other factory workers? I know a lot about this product, I designed it and every machine in this factory you use. (cont 15)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 15) I also know a lot about the competition; why their product will fail because it is missing one neccessary component. In fact, I mentioned it before and hardly anyone listened. It shouldn't be that hard for me to produce evidence of that, as well as evidence that our product is superior, and we could put this whole mess to bed WITHOUT any bloodshed. I can't MAKE the customers buy our product, but I can at least give them a good reason to do so.' (cont 16)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 16) However, imagine this is NOT how the scenario goes. You choose to say nothing to John. It just so happens you are standing in front of the press on Wednesday at 11:02, and here comes John, him and his daughter weeping, into the factory. You KNOW she will die... it is not something you would want because you actually have morals. The switch is right in front of you. All you have to do is reach out and press the button to stop it. Instead, you watch him throw (cont 17)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 17) his daughter into the press. Now, its a good point to argue that he technically CAN'T push the button without messing with John's free will, but the even more profound point is that he SAID NOTHING even while the event was unfolding before him. You want to define god as being all good, but honestly, after looking at my example would you describe the boss as "perfect?" I certainly would not. (cont 18)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 18) What if you are NOT the boss, you didn't design the machines or the product, you can't control anything the boss or the other employees do.. would you STILL not be well within reason to offer a critique, or propose that there was a better way to handle the situation on ALL sides? I don't blame god for evil just because he KNEW it would happen (although that is neccessary) but also that he allows evil to happen even though he can stop it, and ESPECIALLY when it is within his (cont 19)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 19) power to do so AND it does not even effect free will! Why are there volcanos, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, birth defets, cancer, plagues, etc. This "natural evil" is not neccessary, can neither be blamed on man or satan, and really has no effect on free will. If I were "god" I would KNOW all these things would happen, I have the power to change them, and choose not to. Such a lack of action would be deemed immoral if we were talking about a human, even taking into (cont 20)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 20) account that a human does not have all knowledge, is not "perfect," and typically can control very little, let alone every force in the universe that allowed such an event to occur. The icing on the cake, is you want me to believe that such a being is perfect, literally the source of all morality, and that I should worship him. Even if I gave you an infinite number of examples of good things that our "boss" did, it only takes ONE such example of something less than (cont 21)
naejimba 3 months ago
(cont 21) perfect to determine this guy is not perfect. I can't tell you "there is no god," but a critique of a particular god (with the certain characteristics we have mentioned thus far) that stands is a good reason to question some of the claims being made.
naejimba 3 months ago
@unityspirit52 well, open your bible in Judges 11 and you will see...by the way, read the old testament, and you'll see much more.
bekacynthia 6 months ago
just puttin it out there... :D
FatAis 6 months ago
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Don’t be senseless. Take the gift…or at least earnestly investigate it while you still have time. Your wages are waiting for you to collect them. Make sure you quit before Payday.
FatAis 6 months ago
Jesus paid the fine in full on the cross so that the criminals who had violated God’s Law (the Ten Commandments) could have their cases dismissed. Upon our repentance and faith in Jesus, God terminates our case and lets us live.
FatAis 6 months ago
@unityspirit52: If God teaches ppl to do good, but his so-called followers do bad, why blame God for it? It is not God's fault, but the individual's fault.
On the other hand, if (i'm talking about other religion here) god teaches its followers to do bad, and its followers do bad... then of course we can blame this false-god. It is both the false-god and its followers' fault.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
(2) God knew what is best for us, and knew exactly how we will live our lives, but it was still our freewill choice to choose how we live our lives. I hope this is not too complicated for you.
Say God gives you two options, A & B. God knew you inside out, so he knew exactly you will choose Option B. But God did not choose for you. God did not make you choose Option B. You made that choice yourself.
So, omniscience and freewill are really not contradictory at all.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
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SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla why were these comments removed?
FatAis 6 months ago
@FatAis: just noticed some grammatical errors after i posted the comment... sorry about that :)
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla oh right right hehe thats funny
FatAis 6 months ago
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SpongeElla 6 months ago
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SpongeElla 6 months ago
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SpongeElla 6 months ago
This story was told as a NEGATIVE example. ie. Don't do what he did. The fact that it's in the Bible does not mean God condones it or that it is teaching us to do the same. It was a historical fact, and God wants us to learn from it. In this story we learn not to make vows hastily, or better, not at all. Just let your "yes" be "yes", and your "no" be "no".
SpongeElla 7 months ago
@SpongeElla, so you accept this occurrence as "historical fact." Let me put it this way, is it moral for me to kill someone, and then later explain to people that this is "what NOT to do?" Not only does the bible fail to mention that it "condones" such an action, but how could a loving god allow such a thing? It is entirely possible to think of a better "lesson" about our "'yes' [being] 'yes', and our 'no' [being] 'no,'" that does not involve human sacrifice. How is this moral? (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) Imagine I am a high school science teacher, and the day's experiment requires the use of acid. I want to teach the children a lesson about the dangers of using acid, so I fling acid into one of the student's eyes, blinding the individual. Now, I can be certain that all of the children (including the now blind student) are clearly aware of the dangers of acid. What does this say though about my methods of teaching? Have I not committed an immoral act?
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba your "science teacher" illustration is not accurate, as it was not the teacher who flung the acid. The correct illustration should be this: Imagine one student accidently flung acid on the eyes of his classmate, thus blinding the classmate. The science teacher told the class the next day what happened, and asked the class to be more careful with acid in class.
Was the science teacher being immoral for telling the story? or good?
Was he immoral for allowing students to use acid?
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla, no I disagree completely. This analogy you present I find flawed. It might be best if you describe your views on predestination/election or "free will" and if they are even compatible. This is where our differences lie. Now, as for me I find omniscience and free will incompatible. The bible discusses both the ideas of free will and predestination, and I've heard arguments backed by scripture from both sides so I have no idea what you might think of the matter.
naejimba 6 months ago
@naejimba, but you did not say how my is analogy flawed. I think not. In the Jephtah story, Jephtah used his freewill choice wrongly, and his daughter died as a result. God told the story through the bible to teach us lessons in life. Notice God did not cause the daughter's death.
You're trying to tell us that God was being immoral.. for telling us what had happened back then!
Now, I find your reasoning flawed.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla, look the differences lie on our thoughts of "free will" and predestination. If predestination is present, there can be no "accident" where the student blinds the other, as it is part of some "plan." Furthermore, the science teacher is not omniscient. If god is omniscient, I feel he is ultimately responsible. I also feel that omniscience and "free will" are incompatible, and one could make the argument that if god is both omniscient and perfect that he himself would not have (cont)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont) "free will." You say you find my reasoning flawed, but I don't know if you understand my position. I do not know your position on the matter, so if we are to have any meaningful conversation the most logical place to start is to express your position on "free will and predestination, as well as what characteristics you attribute to "god." (omniscience, omnipresence, etc). Now, there are many ways I could critique any given position on the "judeo-christian god," as I find him (cont 2)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 2) logically contradicting according to most "definitions" of him (and I typically cite bible verses to counter the "cherry picking" I see in most christians)..... but I'm left merely trying to "guess" at how to counter your position... which I do not yet fully know. Again, if you wish to have a conversation it is obvious it cannot continue unless you elaborate on what your specific beliefs are... I'm trying to avoid a straw man, and am tired of having to assume when it is not necessary.
naejimba 6 months ago
@naejimba: Fair enough. I'll state my position then. I do not believe in predestination. I believe that God, although all-knowing (omnicient), would not generally intervene in human affairs for the reason that He respects our freewill choice. He has given us this power to choose our actions, and with that, the consequences that ensue.
However, our loving God has also provided a way out. An "escape clause", so to speak. (cont)
SpongeElla 6 months ago
(cont) The "escape clause" is this: We may use our power of freewill choice to choose to call upon God, to ask Him to intervene. And if we do so, God has promised in his Word that he will intervene in our favour.
Simply put: If we choose to live our lives apart from God, then we're left to fend for ourselves. We are subject to the natural consequences of our own actions as well as actions of others. But if we choose to believe in God, then God will guide us and protect us supernaturally
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@naejimba: You said, "If God is omniscient, he is ultimately responsible". Erroneous belief. You shouldn't blame God for whatever that went wrong simply bcos He knew it might happen, or will happen.
God had given us his instructions of how to live right, and has promised to intervene if we call upon Him for help. If we were stubborn to choose our own ways, why blame God for the consequences?
God was not the culprit, God is the ANSWER!
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla, there are many ways to approach this argument. I will start by pointing out some bible verses which talk about predestination. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:4-5). "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, (cont)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont) according to the good pleasure of His will," (Ephesians 1:4,5). “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” (Jeremiah 29:11). So, to begin with, I will accuse you of "cherry picking." Beyond this, you completely ignore the "omniscience free will paradox." If you were to claim that he has a general "plan" but that we are somehow able to make choices... (cont 2)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 2) this goes entirely against omniscience. Omniscience means having "ALL knowledge" and you seem to agree on this point. The more information you have, the more accurately you can predict the future. If one were able to know every possible variable down to the most minute detail, one would be able to flawlessly predict the future. Essentially, such a "god" contains all information on what has happened as well as what WILL happen. (cont 3)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 3) According the the verses above, it is clear that he would have known every possible consequence of every action he would ever make before he created anything. Now, if you want to argue that omniscience means god HIMSELF does not have free will because of this, that is another argument and we could perhaps consider that god is not responsible for anything. However, I fail to see how any other line of reasoning can lead you to the idea that god is NOT responsible for everything. (cont 4)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 4) According to the bible he created everything that is. IF we view god as having free will, if he had wished something else to occur.. then it would be. Essentially, every minute detail, every variable HAS to be predetermined since he could forsee every consequence, and since he is perfect (which I think you would agree upon and there is lots of verses to back it up) he could not make a "less than perfect" decision... (cont 5)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 5) so everything that is and will ever be is exactly the way he wanted it to be. Essentially, if god is omniscient the concept of "free will" is merely an illusion from our limited perspective. Furthermore, everything including that which we view as "good" or "bad" must be predetermined since he contains all knowledge and created everything that is. Now, if you disagree with this you must explain why. (cont 6)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 6) Beyond this, if god is either not omniscient or not perfect, you must explain why we should call such a thing a "god" and, more importantly, why such a being deserves any sort of worship. Even more important than this, the bible talks about all of these concepts and (in attempting to counter any approach you might take) I am already thinking of verses which directly contradict each other concerning such matters. (cont 7)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 7) Basically, I could argue beginning from verses on free will to the conclusion that god is not omniscient.. but the bible says he is. Free will and omniscience are indirectly logically contradictory. Now, as for your other claims, I find it humerous that god need create a "loop hole" to his own plan... if he is omniscient would he not forsee this? Would not it be more logical then to use a plan that does not need to be amended? (cont 8)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 8) Furthermore, I would contend that a being who is "perfect" is unable to make a "less than perfect" decision, meaning he literally could not "change his mind"... meaning he could not amend his plan (see where this is going?) [**note** if you disagree with this there are plenty of verse in which god "changes his mind"]... it is another contradiction concerning the nature of the judeo-christian god. (cont 9)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 9) You also said, "and [god] has promised to intervene if we call upon Him for help." and "...if we choose to believe in God, then God will guide us and protect us supernaturally." Today, in Ethiopia, christianity (particular orthodox christianity) is the largest religion. Furthermore, it is actually one of the oldest christian countries in the world, offically adopting christianity as the state religion in the 4th century. (cont 10)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 10) It also has a horrendous history of drought and famine, the "great famine" in the 1980s saw about ONE MILLION people die of starvation! These people believe in god, where is there "supernatural protection?" Why did god not intervene? I could imagine mothers crying out to god for help as they watched their children die a slow and agonizing death... while I currently sit in an air conditioned house with food in the fridge and clean water to drink and (cont 11)
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont 11) I completely lack belief in ANY god. Where is justice? Read Jeremiah 29:11 again. Now read Matthew 5:45. Which is it?
naejimba 6 months ago
@naejimba:
(1) God has plans for our lives, and has given the blueprint (the Bible) of that plan for us to follow. God also himself came and show us by example (Jesus). More than that, He also gave us a 'coach' to guide us 24/7 (Holy Spirit). God has given us everything we need to succeed in life!
We have the choice whether to follow the blueprint, and to what extent we want to follow it. And the result or consequences will depend on the choices we make.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla, basically, when I get a chance I will respond via personal message since already my response to this is quite long (and not nearly complete).
naejimba 6 months ago
@naejimba: Sure! Looking forward to a meaningful discussion with you. I hope to help you see that God is really a good God. I'm sure you'll like him, if you know Him better.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
(3) It seems to me, your problem is that you blame God for every evil in the world simply for the reason that He knew this would happen. Where's the logic? You have blamed the wrong guy! God is the good guy. You failed to consider there might be someone else who is responsible - our sinful human nature, and the devil who is seeking to destroy us.
It is totally unfair to blame God for our own actions.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
(4) "Predestination" in the bible does not mean everything is set by God, and we have no choice but to follow his plan. It simply means that God has a perfect plan for us, that if we choose to follow this plan (ie. live our lives God's way), then we will be all that we could be.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
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SpongeElla 6 months ago
(5) The bible contains many passages where God promised supernatural provision and protection to His people. We Christians have the right to claim these promises, by virtue of Jesus' shed blood on the cross. In order to claim it, we must (1) Know God's promises in the bible, (2) Believe that God is able and willing to keep his word, and (3) Claim the promise by our spoken word in Jesus' name.
In my personal experience I can testify that it worked for me, many times over.
SpongeElla 6 months ago
(6) On the issue on suffering Christians (without any disrespect to them), my view is that the main reason is WRONG BELIEF. Some reasons i can think of (1) Not aware that such promises are in the bible, (2) Wrong belief that miracles are things of the past, that God no longer works miracles, (3) Wrong belief that God wants to punish us for our sins (after being justified by faith through the blood of Christ), and (4) Unaware of our authority we have in Christ, and how to exercise this authority
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@naejimba: Now you're saying that the "science teacher" analogy is not appropriate. But you were the one who used it first. I was merely arguing along this line.
Should we blame the teacher for allowing the experiment to go on, bcos he 'knew' that if students play with acid someone will get hurt?
God is a good God. God wants good things for us. He sent the Bible to guide us, sent us prophets and teachers. Even sent his beloved Son to live among us and to die for our sins.
Why blame God?
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla, no you don't understand what I'm saying about the analogy, but it doesn't matter it has outlived its use and I see you define your position in another post and I'll respond to it there.
naejimba 6 months ago
@naejimba You must bear in mind that it was not God who killed the girl. The bible merely reported that Jephthah killed the girl. God allowed such evil because He gave us humans a freewill choice - a power to choose our actions, and these actions will affect other ppl, as other's actions affect us. But we must all give an account of our actions on earth at the judgment day. Not only that, but God also provided us a WAY OUT while we are still on earth. (cont)
SpongeElla 6 months ago
@SpongeElla, again, I wonder about your beliefs concerning predestination and free will. Other than that, you just make a lot of highly improbable claims but provide no sort of evidence or logical argument in support of any of them.
naejimba 6 months ago
(cont) God gives us (who believe in Jesus as our Savior) the Holy Spirit, who will lead us to make the right choices, and he also gives us guardian angels to protect us from harm that may be caused by the actions of others. (this is available to those who believe and claim God promises in Psalm 91)
SpongeElla 6 months ago
when bad things happen to good people or innocents its a natural compulsion for the human mind to ask if God is a loving God then why does he allow such tragedy? is he cruel? but consider that God has already planned for his kingdom to be one that will last forever and no one will be hurt. The violence and death and a host of other horrors of our present world will pass away and in this respect i hope many will find the encouragement to believe on him
jasminesdeath 7 months ago
@jasminesdeath did you mean sacrifice his living life? now that would've been worthy. Not like great great but it would've been something. Anyway missing the point that god's grace is just that we don't have to earn it. We just have to open up and accept it thanks to Jesus being the great sacrifice now. It's funny peeps accept a lion dying for naughty edward in narnia but it's harder to accept Jesus dying for us in real life. - rambling now woops
FatAis 7 months ago
@jasminesdeath, I've been reading your comments I'm going to jump in here too "God has already planned for his kingdom to be one that will last forever and no one will be hurt." What about the vast majority of humanity, that was created knowing full well they would be punished eternally for finite crimes? The "violence and death and a host of other horrors of our present world" will pass away for some, but for most, the most unspeakable horrors imaginable lies ahead. Would not a more (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) "just" or "ethical" version of hell simply be for someone to experience all the pain they caused others, and then the punishment ceases? I fail to see how the god of the bible is just.. and.. ultimately even with my "new and improved" hell there is one glaring problem. Salvation is based on belief, not actions! Ghandi would be in "hell" while theoretically Adolf HItler could have "accepted Jesus into his heart" right before he chomped down on the cyanide capsule and blew his (cont 2)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 2) brains out, and he's laughing up in heaven giving a high five to Jeffrey Dahmer. I just cannot see how the judeo-christian god is just...
naejimba 7 months ago
God did not require Jephthah to make that vow, however, i think a more honorable response Jephthah would have told the Lord " Lord i cannot keep my vow to you and kill my own daughther allow me to sacrifice myself instead so she may grow up and have a family, i think the Lord would have agreed to this. Self sacrifice is the whole underlying theme of the bible. It says there is no greater love than for a man to lay down his life for his friends, or in this case his daughter.
jasminesdeath 7 months ago
@jasminesdeath you pretty much just said it's ok to commit suicide for god??? (this is what suicide bombers are doing). I disagree I don't believe god would have been ok with any sacrifice involving the death of one of his beloved children. The minute we assume what god prefers we fail because we simply cannot assume the mind of god, we can wonder but. This is why God had to send his son, to teach people how to live for him and for others. Did you mean kill himself? or?
FatAis 7 months ago
@naejimba hahaha dude you think too much, so do I and sometimes it's a flaw.... The more we find out the less we know... It kinda sux really???... I reckon u want someone to prove you wrong am I right?
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, how is thinking too much a flaw? Furthermore, it is not that I "want" someone to prove me wrong... although I would not be opposed to it either... my views on how one should view an error are changing quite dramatically, but that is another matter I suppose.
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba you can't think of one time you over thought something and got absolutely nowhere?... Have you never experienced the cycle of endless thought, never been trapped in a circle of thought? It's frustrating and a waste of time especially those times at night before sleeping... p.s have you read screwtape letters? perhaps you would figure things about God if they were given to you backwards? anyhoo...
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, no, not anymore at least. I embrace cognitive dissonance, I embrace change, and I am trying to become comfortable with uncertainty. Any "circle" I encounter is either some form of circular logic, which I can identify as an invalid line of reasoning, or perhaps it might mean one is encountering cognitive dissonance.. which one should investigate further. As for screwtape letters, I have not read it although I'm sure I would find it interesting.
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba yea tru? but investigating those circles are frustrating and gaww my head these days is like an unorganized file cabinet after being overloaded in my youth these days I find it hard to still. Most of the time my over thinking will stop me from sometimes just seeing the obvious you know?... I'm one of those thinking back and looking soo hard to find my keys only to realise when I stop they're in my pocket. :L hahaha
FatAis 7 months ago
To be absolutely clear, God is love, Satan and his fallen angels are hate, all the devil has to do is sow the seed of doubt in your mind to keep you intelluctualizing forever because you lean to your own carnal understanding. Once you know the love of God all understanding will be given to you concerning the questions you muddle over in your finite mind everyday.
jasminesdeath 7 months ago
@naejimba, God didn't create satan as satan. satan or lucifer sinned in his heart for coveting the throne of God in heaven, henceforth was cast out. When he saw how much God loved mankind he was jealous because his position in heaven was lost. ever since he has hated Gods creation and humans. He is a liar, theif, murderer and coward. He made himself who he is by his rebellion just as man made his sinful nature by rebellion.
jasminesdeath 7 months ago
@jasminesdeath, " God didn't create satan as satan. satan or lucifer sinned in his heart." Couldn't I just contend that since god has all knowledge he would have KNOWN that creating him the way he did would lead to these consequences? Since he is perfect as well, if he would have seen such consequences as "less than perfect" he would have created him somewhat different... also bringing up that "all works according to his will" one could argue that this is EXACTLY (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) what god wanted to happen, that it is part of his plan. Furthermore, I noticed you did not even comment on, say, the logical contradiction of a being with all knowledge who is also perfect, you literally ignored my every contention! "He made himself who he is by his rebellion just as man made his sinful nature by rebellion." Ok... but didn't god create both satan and man, supposedly? Again, I could point out that god is omniscient and present the same argument (cont 2)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 2) I have presented several times. You are merely avoiding the issue. "To be absolutely clear, God is love, Satan and his fallen angels are hate..." Could I not critique this as the psychological defense mechanism of "splitting" used in this case to avoid any cognitive dissonance one finds with the conflicting nature of god as depicted in the bible? (cont 3)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 3) Important to note is NONE your comments have addressed the main contention presented in the video, nor have they addressed any contentions I have brought forth in our discussion. "all the devil has to do is sow the seed of doubt in your mind to keep you intelluctualizing forever because you lean to your own carnal understanding." (cont 4)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 4) This "seed of doubt" you mention I would contend is a healthy thing. Doubt essentially means to be uncertain about something, or to hesitate to believe. Nothing is sacred in the search for truth, and no idea should be held in such a lofty place that it is above critique. "Once you know the love of God all understanding will be given to you concerning the questions you muddle over in your finite mind everyday." (cont 5)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 5) Really?! Fantastic! Since you "know the love of god" you would therefore have "all understanding," meaning you should be able to answer EVERY one of my questions, address the logical contradictions I brought up, and effortlessly counter every point I've made thus far. So... why is it that you have not adressed any of these things? =/
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba. even if there is any grain of truth in your statement, i see you are not saying anything about satan contributing to mankinds tragedys consider that. Yes god is responsible for his creation. which is why he died for it to reconcile it back to himself. Our sinful natures were created when we disobeyed God in the garden of Eden
jasminesdeath 7 months ago
@jasminesdeath, well I could say something about satan, but right after that I could say that since god created satan with complete knowledge of every horrible thing he would ever do, any awful thing that I happen to bring up I could turn around and say that god is just as responsible... (if not moreso or entirely responsible, depending on one's views of predeterminism as described in the bible as well as "free will" and if the two are even compatable). (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) Furthermore, one could argue that even god doesn't have free will (something I will present in a second) "Yes god is responsible for his creation. which is why he died for it to reconcile it back to himself." So... god has a perfect plan that involves having to kill himself to save us from the sin that HE HIMSELF created us with? (remember, ultimately he is responsible) If god is all powerful and all knowing, why must he amend his own rules? (cont 2)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 2) Another classic example is the story of the flood. God sees the wickedness of man and is "grieved" by his creation, deciding to flood the world, killing EVERYTHING but noah, some of noah's family, and the animals that were on the ark. He is literally "wiping the slate clean" and starting over again. However, if he has all knowledge, he would have known before he created these people exactly what they would do, and that he would be somehow displeased with them (cont 3)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 3) (which is funny since he is the one that created them that way) and would have to destroy them. Also, if he is perfect, shouldn't he have gotten it right the first time? It would seem as if god changed his mind. ... but how can a perfect being that knows everything change their mind? To change one's mind would mean one had considered a BETTER way to do or think about something... (cont 4)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 4) but if he already can consider every possible option he would have known this to be somehow "less than perfect" and if his every action is perfect then how could he possibly do something "less than perfect" to first have something to change his mind about? Personally I think, if such a god exists, one could make the argument that not only do humans and satan not really have "free will," but one could also argue that god himself (cont 5)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 5) (if he is unable to change his mind, the bible contradicts itself on this) could not have it as well! .. but you might contend that this line of reasoning could allow us to say that even god is not "responsible" for his actions if he does not have free will, literally meaning no one is responsible for anything, meaning this completely contradicts my previous statements! That is entirely my point, that the judeo-christian god is logically contradicting (more about that in a sec) (cont 6)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 6) See how just merely thinking about the subject leads us around in circles and ultimately leads to direct contracitions? I'll give you an example. How a god can be both perfect and all powerful? (and I could site scripture to support both notions) If we start with the idea of perfection, this means he cannot do something deemed "less than perfect." Now, if god cannot do something, he cannot be all powerful. (cont 7)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 7) If we start from him being all powerful, god can literally do anything, meaning he in fact CAN do something "less than perfect," meaning he cannot be perfect. What the hell is the point of all this? You cannot disprove a negative unless it is logically contradicting. I cannot disprove aliens, bigfoot, or the tooth fairy unless I can show them to be logically contradicting. Since I JUST showed the judeo-christian god to be logically contradicting, have I not just disproved him?
naejimba 7 months ago
How can you say god is cruel? He died a extreme graphic violent death on the cross to show how much he loved us. He didnt have to do this. It is man's sinful nature that is cruel. Look at the world around you how much tragedy there is in it. When the Lord comes back his kingdom will be one of peace. love, and no violence or death.
jasminesdeath 7 months ago
@jasminesdeath, "It is man's sinful nature that is cruel." .. and god himself created our "sinful nature" and as creator he would therefore ultimately be the source of this cruelty. "Look at the world around you how much tragedy there is in it." Tragedy that is supposedly part of his "perfect" plan. Again, since the bible says that all works according to the will of god, and is very clear that he created this world, he is ultimately responsible for that creation. Theists are so quick to (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) attribute all that they deem "good" to god, but one must understand that an omnipotent and omniscient creator is also just as responsible for that which is deemed "bad." Even if you want to use the pyschological defense mechanism of splitting and attribute everything "bad" to satan.... god would have created satan, meaning ultimately he is responsible. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
naejimba 7 months ago
GOD IS A LIE and he said catholics go to hell.
MCRandLP4ever 8 months ago
@MCRandLP4ever god is a lie but he said something??? FAIL :L obviously you don't make sense and furthermore you are probably incapable of knowing why you FAIL... shotgun brahzzz
FatAis 8 months ago
GOD IS A LIE.
MCRandLP4ever 8 months ago
@Drewmck79 fail.. actually she was following her dad blindly because as I found out after wondering bout her reaction that's how woman of her time and culture were raised to be. Marriage was the purpose if she was to die then what of her purpose in the world?
Believe it or not christians do question god, as psalm 22 shows. Jesus asked for another path but as he knows god will is always right he succumbed to gods will.
FatAis 8 months ago
Doubt your spittin enough for a pearl pinky toe-ring let alone a necklace little boy go back to kindygarten loser
FatAis 9 months ago
I prefer sexy grandpa time.
MrJamesonStyles 10 months ago
Im suprised that christians didnt try to excuse this with the fact that the daughter wasnt a thing.
9tailedfoxgoddess 10 months ago
WTF?! Why is the Geico bear doing scripture readings?
inedibleedible 11 months ago
It's human nature to desire reduction of our cognitive dissonance, it's a tricky balancing act, a skill. I guess it's different for me, I've encountered God many times and probably will in the future. He gave me a necklace once tru.:L I still have to go over things to understand since I have that need, but I have peace with him, who he is and not who I think he is.
FatAis 1 year ago
@FatAis
can i give you a pearl necklace???
god says its ok
novaflo339 9 months ago
do you think god is responsible for the sin of man?// Are parents responsible for the sins of their kids? If so then we should render ourselves sterile?//should God not allow anyone life?? Granted you may misunderstand what the bible is saying and twist my words to fit your shallow logic but it won't reveal truth. One must comprehend the evidence before one can be lead to the truth.
FatAis 1 year ago
@FatAis, that analogy is horribly flawed. Parents are not omniscient and have very limited control over "creating" a child. For instance, if a child is born with some deformity or is mentally retarded, do we typically blame the parents? True, something like, say, malnutrition (cited as one potential cause of mental retardation) during pregnancy may or may NOT be in the control of the parents, but things like chromosomal abnormalities and inherited metabolic disorders are not. God, however (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) is supposedly all powerful and all knowing, meaning not only does he have complete control over every variable but also knows the consequence of each possible action... meaning he alone bears the ultimate responsibility for his creation. A more useful approach would perhaps be to discuss your views on "free will" and biblical predeterminism (as well as if the two are even compatible).
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba oh that last little part bout the blinded in anger thing I was just referring to this last week testing me haha in which i failed... anyways....
FatAis 7 months ago
@naejimba hmmm whats goin on here.... There's alot to read... so to draw conclusion on everything you just said (to me) and it may sound light, shallow or typical of a 'god lover' lol. Where you say his 'ultimate responsibility' I see his 'ultimate plan'. Where your train of thought led, I agree. The difference is I trust that everything unfolding must have an ultimate good ending. I choose to be hopeful that yes he is in control and that his will is good. Even when I am blinded in anger haha.
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, if I wanted to be mean I could say that is a "cop out" for addressing my specific points of contention. That is not why I'm here though.. that would be another post. You may find THIS comment shallow or typical of a 'god hater'... is not what you are describing merely the concept of "faith?" It is almost as if you are saying you acknowledge my points and perhaps even the cognitive dissonance they present, "Where your train of thought led, I agree." .. but continue on to explain (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) that you "trust" that you "choose" (and I would argue that belief is a sub-set of knowledge and therefore not a choice for a rational person) .. that you just simply believe irregardless. I can't speculate about your motives... that is fallacious, but I would ask, does this in any way have something to do with what you WANT to be true?
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba I should point out the part of your train of thought I agree with is; 'god however is supposedly..........each possible action'... He may bear the responsibility for his creation and he may have an ultimate plan to fulfill this responsibility. When you say he's responsible for his creation it sounds as if your blaming him for the bad stuff?...
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, I'm not sure how else to put it. If he is responsible for everything, everything would include things we think "good" as well as things we think are "bad." Since supposedly he created all there is he alone would be responsible for... all there is good and bad. The bible conflicts over whether or not he is "the author of evil" so I guess you can do what most theists do, choose which ever one makes the most sense and "cherry pick" information, and then ignore any remaining (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) cognitive dissonance regarding the direct contradiction in the bible. Or at least I hope you are too clever for such a tactic...
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba nah I won't cherry pick I like to scrutinize every little detail of whats in front of me. The old testament used to really have me frustrated, It's wide open to interpretation then I was told that the new testament is to live by and the old is to learn from. When ever I find a contradiction or if I read something that doesn't add up right away I'll study it. It's funny I can go back to something I thought I had figured and I'll find even more. It's amazing what we miss.
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, well good. I'm glad you surprised me. I think the conversation is getting quite more interesting now. =)
You have an interesting technique to deal with the cognitive dissonance though, its as if you side step it. It's a cute, catchy little phrase that basically means, "the new testament is perfect, the old testament is... meh, just ignore the parts about genocide, infanticide, stoning disobedient children and gays... oh, and the part with the talking donkey." You know, for (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) most of my life I was a christian, just like you. I couldn't stop with the old testament though. Just as you were told this, I was told many things. I was told the bible was the word of god. Then I was told the old testament was "symbolic" or "spiritual" in some parts, like the creation story. I have a video which defends quite well a literal interpretation of the creation story, citing scripture and commenting on what the meaning of the original hebrew words used (check it out) (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) either way, I found the same kinds of contradictions within the new testament (try reading the gospels accounts of whom visits jesus's tomb side by side) within the new testament. Furthermore, the claims of the old testament I could not bring myself to believe due to finding them highly improbable and having no evidence to support it... was just as improbable as a claim of, say, a virgin birth or resurrection from the dead. ... and if parts of the bible are inaccurate, how can we (cont 2)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 2) be certain of, say, the two examples I listed... highly improbable claims with no direct evidence to support any of it? The virgin birth and resurrection from the dead are two things most christians would believe in, if one finds the source to be questionable does not one have to question the validity of such claims? I've also been told those same arguments of various "interpretations," "symbolic," or "spiritual meanings" for various problems with the new testament as well. =/
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba I know muslims say how can a virgin give birth. Yet they believe Allah is all powerful? but what he can't create a baby in the womb of a virgin?- So he is not all powerful?. It's like saying alright he's all powerful but he can't do that.... He can create life but he cannot bring it back when it dies?.... Nothing is impossible, I reckon there is logic to everything we just don't know it all.
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, well... I would say nothing is impossible myself, save something which is logically contradicting.. like a three sided square... or what I was rambling about earlier concerning the nature of the judeo-christian god. Now, for some reason you are completely able to ignore any of this cognitive dissonance, (as I would argue such a being could not be possible) so we will use a different approach. I'm sure we would both agree both of these claims are highly improbable (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) .. meaning they are not something we would think "likely" to happen. If I told you I was born from a virgin and that I died for three days and then rose back from the dead would you believe me? I doubt you would, and I would think you gullible if so. So you see, it is not the probability of the claim having anything to do with whether you believe or not, it is its association with "god." (cont 2)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 2) I contend that therefore using such logic, you could literally believe in ANY highly improbable claim if it happened to be in your particular "holy book." For instance, if I took the story of Jonah and the big fish and replaced it with Jack and the beanstalk, and it was part of your holy book all of your life would you be able to determine this? Do they not both contain highly improbable claims? (cont 3)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 3) What of other religions, if you grew up elsewhere (I see you are in New Zealand, largely christian after european colonization) perhaps you would believe in "god", but perhaps it might be allah instead? Now, I ask you how can you determine that the claims of your religion are superior? How can you determine your assumed highly improbable claims are the "correct ones?" (cont 4)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 4) .. and even such a notion I find humerous since in order for it to be a theistic position the hypothesis of "god" no matter how it is defined, must be present and is merely an assumption. The weakness of this position is it begins with an answer and looks for evidence which supports the original assumption, comitting the confirmation bias at the step of searching for information. (cont 5)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont 5) The strength of a position such as mine is not that even the most basic assumptions we all must make (and beyond that I think we should carry as few as possible) CAN change, it is that they MUST change. It is not necessarily your conclusions I take issue with, it is how you arrive at them that I question.
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba ?? you ramble on so much u end up completely blind-sighted to the 'possibles' other than your own one track. Here's an idea try not to ask questions and then answer them yourself it's soo annoying. You draw narrow conclusion upon narrow conclusion until there are so much twists it is impossible to decipher/relay them given the lack of characters allowed :L we can def agree on the conflict of how ea other arrives at conclusions.
FatAis 6 months ago
@naejimba Did it sound that way? I ddnt intend it to sound that way. The old testament has it's place in my search. I'm sure there are things I can draw wisdom from. I reckon if it were enough though there would be no need for the new testament. Gods message is in there
. As for the contradiction of jesus resurrection it's typical of witnesses with different perspectives. The writer can only interpret something they weren't personally attending. Generally you get the jist of it.
FatAis 7 months ago
@naejimba yep at the age of 4 I did lay in bed at night wanting there to be more to life. I did want to know that good existed further than me. I wanted to know that a day would come where it would all make sense and every tear I cried in those times wasn't for nothing. That their would be a happy ending somewhere. That it wasn't all for nothing. And boom God spoke to me (not in voice) just a 'knowing' can't explain it. But ever since then.....
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, so this is then your personal justification (quite debatable... I don't mean to be rude) that I was referring to. Still to this day I myself lay in bed at night wishing there was more to life.. I can "wish" many things, however, when one grows up they realize that merely desiring something has no effect on reality. Only our actions can, and the effects of most individuals in a given society are quite limited. Is not this the cognitive bias known as "wishful thinking?"
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba...... I've known he existed and that he loves me. Still doesn't make life easy though, quite the opposite actually. But can't prove any of it, isn't that the way??
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, ... ok. Would you define this as faith, as I would? "But can't prove any of it, isn't that the way??" The way one "proves" something is to present some type of evidence. Evidence must be demonstrable or it does not really "prove" anything to another person, does it? I call this faith then, some definitions of faith are: "a strong belief without evidence," or "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." Point is you cannot produce some form of evidence (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago
(cont) to convince me. Now, you might have personal experience, meaning you have a personal justification for belief (and even that can be questioned but for me to do so would be merely speculative, such attempts are best reserved for the individual) but that is another matter.
naejimba 7 months ago
@naejimba not sure actually I think faith is in the people who devote themselves to god without ever really encountering him. They to me are pretty darn faithful. Me however I've seen a thousand times now and I still can't walk a straight line. For me isn't it less than faith because I have seen? I dunno feels like less.
I know the whole 'encounter with god' thing is questionable. I questioned those encounters pretty early in life after countless encounters :L I'm 110% sure it's all real.
FatAis 7 months ago
@FatAis, first of all.. I'm a bit confused. "Me however I've seen [god] a thousand times now.." So you have that much personal experience?.. but all you offered so far was that when you were little you wished for something enough and now you just "know" its true? Is this not merely "emotional reasoning" a type of cognitive distortion?.. Essentially, "I feel it, therefore it must be true." This is a psychological defense mechanism against cognitive dissonance, and is related to the logical (cont)
naejimba 7 months ago