God as Game Designer

[CathodeRay00]

For anyone interested--look up a YouTube video called "The Necessity of Virtue" by Jordan Peterson. It offers valuable insight for anybody on either side of the discussion. There's another good one called "Reality and the Sacred" by the same guy. It's kind of a scientific understanding of religious symbolism. It's about what the "game" of religion is getting at; uncertainty in the face of a complex universe, and how to behave in a world where suffering is a universal presence.

[CathodeRay00]

Well said John. I think the two key things people easily forget is that 1) God didn't write the bible, people wrote the bible as they were trying to understand God; and 2) that slavishly following a rule is stupid. Rules are just training tools. They're like katas in martial arts--simplified movements to teach you how to move. But you can't use them in a real situation. Moral rules are the same--ultimately you have to refine and trust your own judgement, since no rule covers all situations.

[LordStrange]

@CathodeRay00 Then why trust the Bible at all?

[CathodeRay00]

@LordStrange Because there's still some wisdom in there, but people have to rely on their own judgement too, and they have to know the historical context the book came out of (independently from what the book says about its own history), and they need to explore other sources of wisdom as well. Relying 100% on the Bible for everything isn't a good idea; for the same reason that it's a bad idea to listen to only one person for advice, or a single TV station for your news.

[CathodeRay00]

@LordStrange After letting it stew for a while, I thought I'd put it back in RPG terms: it kind of comes down to the "System Matters" debate. Sure, system does matter, and bad design is bad design, but it is also true that even an incoherent text can work just fine in the hands of competent players. (Even if it's a disaster in the hands of incompetent players). Making it work is certainly harder than if it were more coherent, or more complete, but it can be done. (continued...)

[CathodeRay00]

@LordStrange (...from continue) Having said that, Christianity is not my preferred shared universe, and even within Christendom I think there are other game designs that are possibly more coherent and playable than the mainstream bible, such as the Gnostic texts, etc.. Anyway, if it were up to me, I would certainly write a more coherent version, and update the setting from the Ancient Near East to the Twenty-First century global village.

[Higzilla]

Wow you are really off base. I only got through a quarter of your rant. But let me put this out there. Are you even interested? You seem intelligent but you are comparing apples and oranges and saying see they are not the same. On translations and versions. If you as a game designer wanted to reach every person in the world with a game. How many languages would you have to write? And wouldnt your editions have to be written clearly so they could understand? What about as time went on and as

[LordStrange]

@Higzilla " If you as a game designer wanted to reach every person in the world with a game. How many languages would you have to write?"

One. I'm god and I can do it all in one language. But that isn't a sufficient reply to my challenge. The translations I gave were *in English alone*. I wasn't even talking about other languages.

[Higzilla]

In your list you included books written in other languages so I guessed you really were including them. What is the winning condition? Recognizing and accepting Jesus as your Savior Recognizing you are a sinner. Sinner being defined as one not living up to Gods standards. No one single act makes you a loser David a man after Gods own heart. An adulterer, a murderer. but still after God's own heart.

[LMMEjsmith]

@LordStrange so, what if you merely spoke your rules to someone over the phone, and that person took dictation? that person would have to write your words in their language since they don't know your magically universal language.

[LordStrange]

@LMMEjsmith Why is he using such a crude method of communication? He's GOD. Cant he use something a little more sophisticated.

[Higzilla]

@LordStrange Dudehe graduated up to paper from rock.. Remember the ten commandments? He gave you all he needed a book. If you read it it is all about faith. Blind or otherwise.  I don't know how he thinks I already stated that.. I just trust in him. Believe it or not he is easier to trust than you. I don't have to worry about his motive.

[Higzilla]

@LMMEjsmith I guess you could fax them to us.  But then you would have to be a true words smith and a master of grammar and then hoped we were a master of grammar or a wordsmith. Of course then some guy would come along and say that how do we know these words faxed are the right words from the right guy. How come everyones fax machine didn't ring at once and spit out the same words. You are truly grasping. Your video was well thought out.. Your responses thus far haven't been

[LordStrange]

@Higzilla If I was god, I could make a magic book that instantly communicated everything I wanted instantaneously and without error. The bible doesn't even come close to that.

[Higzilla]

@LordStrange You are god, you state God (Biblical) as a game designer is epic fail. So he's not a God.

You are the god and you can create a book and can instantly communicate all you know without error. For some reason you choose not to do that. . Your argument is rapidly falling apart. You admit in a god, but are unable to identify him/her. can only say its not the Bible one, and its not you. I say you are confused you want to believe in something Your video makes you god

[LordStrange]

@Higzilla I suspect English isn't your first language. I did not "admit in a god." I'm an atheist.

[Higzilla]

@LordStrange Then why this argument at all. You are an agnostic not an atheist btw.

[LordStrange]

@Higzilla "You are an agnostic not an atheist btw."

How so?

[LordStrange]

@LordStrange In fact, at this point, i can't tell if you are sincere or a troll. I'll error on the side of caution and not be replying to any more posts.

Thanks.

[Higzilla]

@LordStrange I am not a troll. I am just trying to get at the point of your post. You seem intelligent, you are just selectively choosing your arguments, and arguing facts that no one save God can answer. Why not take the onus off your view and say. I DO NOT BELIEVE, in the BIBLE. Instead of taking the tact that the rules are not clear and concise. Are you not admitting your own short-comings by saying I cannot interpret what God is trying to say to me in the Bible.

[LordStrange]

@Higzilla Yep. You're a troll. You don't understand what "atheist" or "agnostic" means when the answers are just a click away. You continue making incoherent arguments, etc.

Troll. You get no food from me.

[Higzilla]

@LordStrange You know some people just don't get it.

[Higzilla]

@LordStrange because you a) admit you are not an all-knowing entity in the universe. b) acknowledge that there potentially is an all-knowing entity. (Just not the Biblical one). That by definition is an agnostic. If you were atheistic you would have no problem identifying yourself as god (Careful to be selective about the frame work in which you are defined). You embrace things like darwinism, and cling to science even when science doesn't defend you or your point of view.

[Exevalon]

So, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? Whether God exists or not or whether God is a clumsy God who isn't very smart and doesn't know how to make a game (Reality and Life)?

[Deailon]

To be honest according to Bible, when God created world He put very simple set of rules...or just one rule, to be exact. Our ancestors did what players do best: they tried to cheat. And here we are: in a litteral gamers hell. If we're playing the game, we were not given rules. We proved we cannot play by them. When God was pleased with what people were doing, he let them know a part of rules as a reward. It didn't cover everything, so people made home rules for the rest. That broughts us here.

[LordStrange]

@Deailon God knew what would happen, yes? Therefore, it wasn't a game. It was a set-up. A ruse. A con. A grift. And that doesn't excuse the current lack of coherent rules. These are yoru god's rules, right? Why aren't they more clear? Just saying, "You couldn't follow the first set of rules" isn't good enough. I wasn't around for that first set of rules. And besides, your god MADE THEM such that they wouldn't be able to follow the first set. So again, your god is an ass.

[Deailon]

@LordStrange Here's the great dilema: is there free will if God is all-knowing? If there isn't, you are right: they had no chance. If there is a free will it's not that simple, After setting up the rules, GameDesigner became a GM. He knew his players and what they might do. But the way they played the scenario was up to them.

You are right:playing without knowing the rules is unfair. But today we have many clues how the game works and putting hem together without loosing the general sense is fun

[LordStrange]

@Deailon Are you kidding? Playing a game with rules you don't understand when your ETERNAL SOUL is on the line is fun? You must be joking.

[Deailon]

@LordStrange Good one. Not exactly what I said, but that was a challenge (BTW I generally agree with almost everything you write/say about RPGs, so its nice to find something we could actually talk).

Nevertheless the answer is simple. All depends on one thing: do you play because you want to win or because you are afraid to lose? In the first case, it is fun. There is challenge and satisfaction from small successes. If you are only afraid to lose, there is a small chance you will enjoy the game.

[LordStrange]

@Deailon Jingoisms do not an argument make.

[Deailon]

@LordStrange (double-checking the dictionary as I'm not an English native speaker) I'm not sure if I get your answer correctly, so I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

From what I said previously you decided to comment part about how puttng together clues to understand the game (as we probably are in-game characters, not neceserily players),can be fun. You answered, that the stakes are too high. In response I tried to say that it is so only if we make them. It seems we have nothing to lose, all to gain

[okkima]

Hey LordStrange, what games are you making?

[TheaterJenn]

I blogged about this but I don't think I can link to it. it's at jenandtheology on blogspot if anyone is interested.

I thought that this video brought up a lot of interesting ideas that need a more complex Christian answer than is out there frequently.

[LordStrange]

Why does God need complex answers?

[TheaterJenn]

God doesn't NEED complex answers, the world is complex. Christian beliefs that try to fit faithfulness or morality or Christian living into black and white boxes simply fail to work in a complex world where many factors are involved in all decisions.

There are times when there is no completely good option. In such situations the faithful response is to listen to the Holy Spirit and take the best possible path. That is still faithful, even if you had to choose the lesser of evils so to speak.

[formless777]

If you believe in god then unequivocally god has created a complex world. If you want to understand that world you need to embrace complexity because reality is complex. Are you going to tell me that a deity who knows everything and deliberately made a complex world to reflect that wants things to be simple ?

That just doesn't add up, or divide down, or square with reality.

[TheaterJenn]

I wasn't sure if you were addressing me or agreeing with me or something else. Simple answers is exactly what I wasn't saying was appropriate.

I was saying that it isn't simple and that God is not a simple God and our world is not simple and our answers cannot be simple and still provide even an adequate answer. God is beyond understanding so why would we assume that simple answers would work?

[formless777]

So I guess I'm agreeing with you. That's all.

[0killxo0]

you can only loose the game once from this video. know the rules , newfags.

[00GreyEyedGirl00]

This video made me lose the game so many times :C

[Kharesh]

You're an oddity sometimes, Mr. Wick. Keep on trucking.

[acwaller1000]

LIfe is a game, and if put your arms up,down,left,left,right,down,u­p,up,left you get $1000 and a extra life

[Valthek]

i just tried.. nothing happened

[ShallowThoughts]

You have to start the game playing as Mario. D'uh!

[Valthek]

still nothing

[ShallowThoughts]

You forgot the entrance fee of $500. Gimme a call and we'll work something out

[olstar18]

No its left left right right up down up down a b a b start select.

[bathlarper]

Maybe its a marketting ploy. The new testement is 2000 years old no so isn't it time for 3rd Ed? then over the next 1000 years they can release abunch of new supplements and then negate them all with Ten Commandments v3.5.

[thadrine]

Thus an explanation on my religious views.

[Nomadistari]

Very interesting point of view! You inspired me a lot!

Don't you think the only one rule of life is to discover its ever evolving rules? That's the fun part! I hope the set of rules of life is infinite because, if it is not, that will be very boring to reach the end, the nothingness, the death.

Is the perfect game a game we do not want to stop? A perpetual journey with a direction but an unreachable goals. The journey is far more interesting that the absolute end.(As I said, you inspired me)

[JinxTheSorcerer]

i think if your a gamer you will eventuly get this thought.

[acrislazoiu]

IT'S LIKE UO..

[deepbluetarget]

Great thoughts. Will pass this video on.

[isaacbod]

You Tube and its bizarre train of thought: after watching the ol' video, the related video boxes pop up, and the videos are all ladies doing the butt shaker dance, why does Youtube want me to watch the butt shaking. I swear, I'm only looking at videos about table role role-playing and songs. I guess butt shaking can be a religious experience.

[azirk83]

Ever want to write the "Perfect Game"? You're living it. The perfect game is your life. All those books you talk about? Written by men. As we know from all the RPGs out there, men are flawed, ignorant, and selfish at times.

If there is an endgame, I believe people of all religions will reach it, because I'd like to think that God is more open minded than those who've written about him make her out to be. Sorry about that last sentence, I randomly swap pronouns when I speak of God.

[RaedwaldBretwalda]

Religion as a set of rules to follow to "win heaven" is not part of all religions.

[Vampir5]

Finally, it works perfectly!

and it's so true

[flydye45]

It's good to see that, bitter after Prop 8 passed, Mr. Wick continues his tirade against Christianity. One would think that a designer and writer, that quibbles about stylistic translations would be beneath him. Not so. Several of his points are valid. Many are overdone or selective.

But I suppose he is playing "Game Reviewer" to God. What is his classic response?

[LordStrange]

"It's good to see that, bitter after Prop 8 passed, Mr. Wick continues his tirade against religion."

I fixed your typo.

[hoboyho]

Very kind of you. After being "bitter" and all. ;-)

[flydye45]

Yes, how many minutes did you take discussing Sunni/Sufi differences? Quibbling over Theravada sacred texts vs. Mahayana? Even Judaism was used as a stick to highlight defects in Biblical understanding. But after railing at "One Religion! ONE!" in the previous video, and the blatant focus of this one, I'm afraid I'm not allowing you rhetorical dodge.

[wafflesmacduff]

more!!!!!

[noreligion11080]

like magic the gathering

[digitalmorphine]

It's working on normal quality now.

[shadowhawck]

Well stated sir well stated.

[W4RW017]

out of curiosity, which games have you been involved with?

[Emmissary]

Legend of the 5 Rings, 7th Sea, House of the Blooded, Orkworld. Im sure there is more, but I don't know all of them.

[peteramthor]

Enemy Gods is one of my faves that he's done. Really neat concepts in there.

[Vampir5]

I can't watch it even in High Resolution... maybe it'll be online later, if not, it might be a good idea to re-upload it...

[Dragavan]

Why is this showing up on lists, but then not playing (no longer available)? I caught this when it first showed up and rather enjoyed it (and it still works in higher resolution for some reason), so it bothers me to see it missing like this. I can't really link friends to it if it's not really there.

[W4RW017]

Same thing happened earlier on another video, I think youtube's doing something with their video database.

[LordStrange]

Something weird is going on. Try switching between quality (high and normal). That seems to work.