Changes to English Missal well underway

[Pookatube]

Epic Fail!

[kiddtut]

I was an alter boy back in the days when the Mass was said in Latin, I believe it should have stayed that way to this day.......

[TheLancashireladdy]

Will someone, preferably a cleric, give a straight answer to this question? When it was decided at Vatican 2 to introduce the vernacular, why didn't they simply use the translation which already existed in the (Latin) Roman Missal?

[pfpnewhope]

Someone noted that "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" referred to everyone doing things the same way. That's absurd. Unity does not mean lock step conformity. That was the experience of the church before the counter-reformation and one of the goals of the Second Vatican Council. This change is about power...pure and simple.  Otherwise we'd be trying to be more faithful to the original GREEK sources. This is about Rome pissing all over local churches to mark them as their own.

[TenderTrap86]

@pfpnewhope If the change is about power, then why are only English speaking parishes being affected? If somebody says "Catholic country", the nations that immediately pop into your head are Britain, America and Australia?

[nojoso]

@pfpnewhope You sound like an Orthodox Christian :D

[pfpnewhope]

And WHY is it so imortant to be literally faithful to the Latin? The translators in the 60's, 70's and 80's were charged to create DYNAMIC translations that would inculturate the language of the liturgy. That principle has been reversed and so it was not an error but a change in direction...a restatement of the centralized authority of Rome and a move away from incultruation.

[Portoinfinitivo]

@pfpnewhope Why? Because, as you say in the Creed, you believe in ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church: Credo...UNAM, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclésiam. It makes sense: otherwise what we proclaim belief in would vary, depending on the language, while the Church ought to be universal.

[LTPaiulellA]

This latest revision drives a coach and horses through the guidlines contained in Liturgiam Authenticam, the 2000 document of the Holy See on how to translate liturgical prayers into the vernacular, Secondly, many of the changes are simply not correct English.

[LTPaiulellA]

It appears that the 2008 translation(as submitted and approved by bishop's conference of England and Wales) has undergone a complete revision with few texts unchanged.

[TitaniumTiger]

Latin was not the original language of the liturgy of the early church. It was the vernacular, which was Greek or whatever the local Christians language was: Aramaic in Jerusalem, Syriac in Syria, Greek in Greek-speaking cities, Latin in Rome. This argument that the whole Church will go back to medieval Latin is so tired out and old; the last gasp of a dying age.

[albertcooper]

Just bring back the Tridentine Mass..the experiment has failed

[lynnkramer1211]

I have read that they in Rome have screwed his up too! This should not have been fiddled with. The US Bishops had it right, the Italians should go pound sand.

[BobP863]

This is all so silly. English is a Protestant language.

[jcapist]

This translation is for English speaking countries only. A comment made about being "submissive" caught my eye. To me, when we are "submissive", it means really against our will, and cowering. When our will wills our will, out of love of Christ and His Church, to me that is not "submissive", but brings about great joy and peace. Hope that makes sense to others.

[endtime471]

Pope Pius IX said not to change the langue or the wording so there for the english or any non Latin langue used in the mass is blasphemy look up mhfm1 for the truth.

[WhiteWings88]

As a student of the Latin language, I'm happy that this is being brought into effect after hearing/reading the blatant mistranslations of the average english Mass for the 22 years of my life. As a Catholic, I'm even happier: "Pro multis" = "For many", not "for all".

Thanks for spreading the word =D

-'Wings

[holyness2]

So; does this mean that Mass Settings like: Mass of Creation, Celtic Mass, STL Jesuit Mass and the Heritage Mass cannot be used? And that we use that same Mass setting as they do at the Masses that the Holy Father celebrates? 

[LTPaiulellA]

@holyness2 Excellent question. We have some lovely arrangments by composers such as Paul Inwood. I hope that he and others like him will come up with new pieces of work that incorporate the new wording.

[Thunderhead889]

Ive done an interesting comparison: the part of the liturgy that says "may the angel take this sac. to your altar in heaven, etc.." has a 19 word difference when compared to a literal translation. The new trans is gonna be great; I just hope stupid liberals and ignorants do not decide to fool around with it.

[1tontomato]

It's about time we get a true translation, thank God.

All those Catholics not in favor, please leave, the party is over.

Being Catholic is being submissive to the Church, not being rebellious.

[randolphhjr]

I will continue to respond correctly and will never say anything stupid as "and with your spirit". Only an idiot would say that. And I will never say say anything so stupid as "I am not worthy that you should come under my roof". I will continue to say, I am not worthy to receive you. The words of Mass should make sense. Liturgy should make sense.

[broadleygreen]

I´ve got a good idea. Why not have the Mass in Latin? Then we won´t have all this confusion about mis-translations! And EVERYBODY will be able to understand everybody else. And all Catholics will be able to go to Mass anywhere in the world and partcipate fully.

I wonder if anybody else has thought of that?

Oh, yes! Generations of the Faithful.

Back to the true Mass!

[LiturgicalChants]

If Western europe had not gone and created a colonial empire around the world and spread what was for most of its history a local western european useage to half the world, we could consider returning to latin again or at least limit ourselves to 2 or 3 liturgical languages.

[LiturgicalChants]

The Eastern Catholic Churches are the best model for Latin Catholicism's international adventures. As it is now I do not think we can easily return to that level of exclusivity. What should be done is to follow the de-centralized model of christianity we had in the first millenium. Make the most of inculturation, as has been done with the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Churches.

[dacatholicbandorgan]

We are of Latin Rite not Eastern Rite.

[LiturgicalChants]

SO am I, but I do not want to force Nigeria Latin Catholics to use Latin in their Liturgies, nor would I expect the chinese to use latin as the jesuit missionaries always used a classical form of chinese in their masses there in the 1700s. China was one of the only exceptions to an otherwise exlcusivity of latin language despite venturing into cultures with no connection whatsoever to the latin language or culture.

[TenderTrap86]

LiturgicalChants, there should be, however, some form of uniformity in liturgical languge, wherever that may be. In Eastern Europe, for example, Slavonic used to be the liturgical language, instead of common vernacular.

[LiturgicalChants]

yes thats precisely it. I am not advocating for the "common vulgar tongue" I am advocating for diversity in the antiquated liturgical language families. Much as we have in the 1662 book of common prayer for anglicans, it's not your modern day english vernacular. We do not want our translations changing every 50 years or 100 years. Thats the bad situation the ICEL/USCCB has been led into.

[broadleygreen]

Oh, sorry. I thought this was about the Catholic Church - the ROMAN Catholic Church. I am a member of the Catholic Church - the language which is Latin and which has been the language of my church for nearly 2000 years. I have a perfect missal. It was published in 1962, and everyone can get a reprint.

[Chabz05]

Pray for the Pope, for the smoke of Satan will be so determined to muddle the minds of these men in this committee.

Seriously, if you don't already know the Freemason influence upon Rome herself, then you haven't been made known that the Church has been going through her Passion for the last 40-50 years. Let's pray that this committee won't be the cause of her crucifixion.

Our Lady of Good Success, Pray for us!

[stpaulfan]

I am very thankful that Pope Benedict XVI is taking us back to our roots. Catholic church needs to rediscover its past, as it is a beacon of light in this dark world. God bless Pope Benedict XVI and the Roman Catholic church.

[randolphhjr]

What do you mean by "taking us back to our roots"? Do you really believe that Catholic roots only go back to the High Middle Ages? No. Our roots go back to the First Century before there was a Latin Mass. The Church is over 2,000 years old. You traditionalist seem to think it is only about 900 years old.

[LiturgicalChants]

I enjoy all the ancient liturgies as well. I think you would have to tell us what you think the Tridentine is lacking compared to whats in the Ordo Romanus Primus of 700 A.D. The Tridentine mass is much closer to masses used in the first 300 years than is our 1970 "Paul VI" version. The worst development for the tridentine was the "low mass" which gave the mass a more robotic detached experience than a high mass (the original sole type of mass).

[boleggs49]

And our response to the intercessions were, "Lord have mercy." I have never liked "Lord here our prayer." It was a beautiful Mass, and I miss it.

[LiturgicalChants]

Lord have mercy is what all Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians have continued to use for their litanies and intercessions forever, never any change, always "Kyrie Eleison/Lord have mercy" accurate authentic translations of our received tradition, Thank God.

[boleggs49]

I would love it if they would go back to the English version they were using when I first joined the Church. The Mass opened with "In the name of the Father . . ." Then the priest would say, "I will go to the altar of God." We would respond, "To God who gives joy to my youth." Priest, "Our help is in the name of the Lord." The People, "Who made heaven and earth." In it our response to "the Lord be with you." was, "And with your spirit."

[LiturgicalChants]

Yes that would have been the translation around 1964-65 in english and of course previously in latin for at least 1500 years. However those changes not in the 2008 translation, which is quite disappointing for us orthodox. The improvements are significant, but they are only a start. Sadly it may take another decade to get back to what we already had in 1964. This is why the Western Rite of the Antiochian Orthodox Church is so beneficial, it provides a home to the disenchanted Latin Catholics.

[TenderTrap86]

What year did you join the Church? Judging from the version you've described I'd say circa 1965-69?

[Catholiques1]

30 years? and they think it will be difficult and challenging because the New Missal has been around 30 years? well it wasn't too difficult to destroy, um er, change the classical Missal practically OVERNIGHT and worldwide after 500 years!!? no?

PAX

[lawrencefash]

i just hope that this translation would be really faithful to the latin text....

[richardquartimain]

Nice! I looking forward for our Archdiocese here in the Philippines to promulgate the use of the new English Missal!

[PapaPiusX]

Traditionalist Catholic's have been talking about this for 50 yaer

et cum spiritu tuo and with your spirit

pro multis for many Matt. 26:28 Mark 14:24

credo i believe not we believe

Novus Ordo Missal Good Friday prayer for the Jews i hope will be changed to

St. Paul said in 2Cor 3:13-16

Traditionalist Catholic's are still wrong of course the neo-Catholic will say

[Roddyoneeye]

Is it to be published so as to be accessible to parishioners ? When is it to be available ?

[bedtr]

I am proud to say that many dioceses in the Philippines already adapted the new missal translation since early 2008. It is good to know the real translation of the Latin mass in our own language and dialect.