The Petraeus Paradox

[3leopardsblue]

the time to leave iraq and afghanistan is when the bombings are at a level their own security can handle within their respective borders and NO terrorism , including mad mullahs/teachings, are being exported. and it isnt petraeuses paradox you big creep; its the unholy paradox of all war.

[3leopardsblue]

the time to leave iraq and afghanistan is when the bombings are at a level their own security can handle within their respective borders and NO terrorism , including mad mullahs/teachings, are being exported. and it isnt petraeuses paradox you big creep; its the unholy paradox of all war.

[brazilwanttobe]

Oh lambusy, I beg to differ on one point. We could have won by flattening North Vietnam but Military Industrial Complex was afraid of a wider war with China. Our noble young men and women of every race and creed died to enrich the arms dealers and that my friend is the Paradox. They filled their bank accounts including the late great white father President Lyndon Baines Johnson. The war in Iraq could be won today by attacking Iran and Syria but we have no men and where woud this end, Armagedon?

[brazilwanttobe]

The right Rev. Dr. Jerimiah Wright addressed the issue in saying that America is run by a rich white power structure which caters to the military industrial complex which Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower warned about. Those who oppose it are assasinated hence the deaths of JFK, MLK, RFK and John Kennedy, Jr., an accident or assasination? What about the crash of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown's plane? Bullet holes were found in the heads of all aboard. The flight controller on the ground died days later.

[Iambusy3]

Nice job. Absolutely everyone in America has forgotten that we had a troop strength of over 500,000 men in Vietnam for years and still had no chance of "winning" that war. We could have pulled out in 1968 with the same end result. Tens of thousands of our young men would have been spared. Why haven't we learned anything from that?

[voteDRNO]

CFR or Dr. Ron Paul your coice your freedom your country

[abruzz0]

Our withdrawal will come when our economy can't maintain it anymore. The military strategy here is completely irrelevant. It's only a matter of time before we are forced to leave due to economic crisis. Empires fail.

[6k2]

Is it really that hard to figure out why a 4 star general do not want the war to end?

Generals dream of war. It's their job.

[brazilwanttobe]

Gen Petraeus was the Commander of the Hatian Invasion which Sen McCain urged American Troop withdrawal. Both haiti and Cuba should have been conquered by the U.S. American military and foreign policy is racist. In the '60's fear of China and the Soviets. We loaned money to Mexico to prevent its colapse. Today, we borrow from China and Mexico and fear the Arabs. After supporting the Saudis militarily they now keep us on bended knees with rising oil cost. The melting pot has not reached the top.

[PerryLogan]

Republicans have authoritarian personalities. Authoritarian personalities cannot admit it when they're wrong--it's an essential part of the personality disorder. I hardly need to say this makes Republicans the last people in the WORLD who should be involved with government.

[sugiookami]

And what about Congressman Ron Paul?

[Beatleha]

Executive Branch Dream Team = Dr. Ron Paul, Jesse Ventura, Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney, Robert Wexler, Marci Karput, Ralph Nadar, Russell Means, Peter Schiff. Bob Barr

[EricIndiana]

Petraeus was Jesuit trained at the Edmund A Walsh School of Foreign Service. As was his successor Gen Casey, who is now the Armys Chief of Staff.

Check out the EAW SFS's notable alumni in Wikipedia. Wolfowitzs boy Doug Feith went there and is now part of the faculty.

Clinton, Prince Turki od Saudi Arabia, Robert Gates, Tenet, Petraeus, Casey... etc etc

3 of the 21 names brought up in Sibel Edmonds Gallery of Rogues went to that Jesuit school of thought. Sabri Sayari, Doug F & David Addington.

[sugarpuddin88]

Maybe we should have just stayed in SOUTH VIETNAM!

We'll have to leave eventually - Better sooner than later!

[sugarpuddin88]

I swear Petraeus sounds like a crooked Annuity Salesman! Seriously!

[wiskawind]

Be tray us's, own men see him for the lying money grubbing traitor he is and many have committed suicide under his command. Death before dishonor! "We the People" are so FUCKED with leaders like this!

[DillonX]

Petreus is horrible.

He should be fired, but Bush is equally horrible.

Another paradox -- I hear them say that if we leave Iraq, Iran will move in & control the country, then I hear them say if we leave Iraq, Al Quada will take control of the country.

Look, Iran hates Al Quada & you can't have it both ways.

Truth is - no 1 knows what'll happen if we get out tomorrow.

But what every1 can surely agree on is that every day we stay in Iraq we only create more potential terrorists.

[rainsan]

'We will be greeted at liberators!' Hahaha! What a joke!

[georgep922]

I just heard this on the radio show it was pulled from. A brilliant breakdown of Patreus.

[crazytvfan815]

You should call this the McCain-Petraeus Paradox. He says the exact same thing.

[dswynne]

Cenk, you forget that Al-Maliki initiated the fight in Basra, hence the uptake in fighting.

[Mahoivlich]

start fixing infrastructure and then leave. if they blow it up.....not our problem.

[DrakeMagnum]

The Iraqi people want us out. Just like the typical American, the Iraqi citizen does not understand the entirety of the situation, but shouldn't we treat it like a democracy and do what the Iraqi people want? All social change must come from the people.

Concise statement Cenk.

[kevsmit00]

If the well being of Iraq was ever an issue, we would never have taken over their country. This is a typical parasite-host situation

[brazilwanttobe]

Let's introduce legislation in Congress to make Iraq the 51st state since after all the Administration stated at the onset that "We were not into nationbuilding". This will nullify the Democrats desire to withdraw troops and cement Bush's claim to fame as the founder of a new American state. This will please the Republicans. Iran will be in more serious trouble for its incursions into Iraq. The Americans will benefit as a permanent Mioddle East power and reap the benefits of its investment.

[on2u4sho]

hahaha,... that's not funny.

[brazilwanttobe]

Since when was war, pre-emptive war, slavery, colonialism, imperialism, empire building, white domination, Christian Missionary Outreach, capitalism ever considered to be funny? These are not MAD TV episodes. Its the real deal! Pope Benedict XVI upon his recent arrival in Brazil that the natives were just waiting for the missionaries to come and bring them Jesus and clothes and take their lands and resources. Bush & Co. believed that the Iraqis would welcome them with "open arms". Indeed so!

[1NWOMD]

SINCE WHEN does the media give a SH!T about the Iraqi people??? Wasn't it the neo-con warmongers saying "Glass parking lot!! Nuke them off the map!!" "kill them all"

Now its "lets stay to keep these poor people from fighting"

Nevermind our soldiers are getting killed!! Nevermind mercinary armies slaughtering bloody paths through the streets toating their VIP's bastards to the nearest "press conference" so they can talk about new ways of profiting from this disaster.

IM SICK OF IT!!

[sjl45]

The US staying in Iraq for fear of disaster upon withdrawl simply amounts to postponing the inevitable. What is the US to do, keep troops there indefinitely? Iraq is not a true nation, but a result of some Europeans carving up the region prior to WWI. Let them have their civil war if that is what is in the cards for them. I hope it's not. The US should get out of this mistake immediately to stop its own bleeding, despite the large sacrifice so far. To stay is to commit the Concorde fallacy.

[uru86]

Why does the American media give this General a lick of credibility? Let me go further, why does ANYONE give a lick of a shit about this ass?

[dswynne]

Because he told about HIS assessment on the ground. It's up to the politicians to make the call to stay or leave.

[Telcontar1962]

That is true, but Nuremberg ended the notion of "I was just following orders". A US prosecutor demolished that argument.

It seems you either accept that there are moral dimensions to the choices we make or the idea the "might is right" is correct. Patriotism is no defense either.

He could always tell Bush I refuse to work under a war criminal and resign. He has no excuses.

LBJ was an unwitting sap. Bush is defintely not from that mould.

[ProlefeedTV]

Heads we stay in Iraq, tails we don't leave.

[gladiadorextremo]

nice

[Mernie9]

Hadn't thought about it that way before. Good analysis.

[doford]

So... petraeus just wants more troops so he can keep control, his justification is logical and makes sense.

It isn't a paradox because the whole thing is far more complexe. Over time iraq will stabilize and they will pull troops out.

[Wendy62]

Iraquis say we're making the problem worse.

[Telcontar1962]

Wht you fail to realise is its not an issue whether patreus wants more control to stabilse or not.

The fact is the US and UK invaded a foriegn country on pretexts of their own making.

There is absolutely not one iota of difference between the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Poland in 1939.

Bush and Blair will have their place in history just not the one they hoped it might be.

[doford]

No. There is a huge difference between nazi germany and western secular ideology.

The whole point of invading iraq, iran, syria and other middle eastern nations is to create order and stabilisation so that in the future they will be our friends instead of our enermies.

We should stay in iraq to create the same kind of stabilisation we did in europe after ww2. Look at europe now and compair it to after ww1 when we pulled out and allowed hitler to come to power.

[Telcontar1962]

You probably have geat faith that is the case. Unfortuntely a hard look at the leaders involved will tell you they don't give a damn about their own people let alone Iraqi's.

How you can equate to invading a sovreign country (from a dictator the US/UK supported I may add) as an attempt to ceate stability lacks any credibility.

Hitlers would have arisen in some shape or form whther the us was there or not. The great depression would have seen to that. The two things are not comparable.

[doford]

Lets get a few things straight. The middle east has alot of racist, corrupt, nutters who beleive that people should die because of faith. They are illogical and irrational.

The whole base of there ideology is wrong. It does not work with our secular and free ideology. Islam is an extremily aggressive ideology that must be stopped.

I don't believe hitler would have come to power if we stayed in germany because the economy wouldn't have collapsed as much and therefore less unemployment.

[Twackius]

sorry dude but the crash affected every country. How you think uk/us citizens would have reacted if the uk/us governments had to prop up the german economy as well as their own? You'd probably of gotten a hitler in all 3 countries.

[Telcontar1962]

I should point out that Christianity is hardly a religion of life. There are plenty of Christian eligious based genocides in history to give credence to that.

Every nation has alot of racist, corrupt, nutters. All religions are illogical and irrational, they do require a "leap of faith" to believe.

You say you "don't believe hitler would have come to power" but the fact is no major nation was spared economic collapse in the 1930's, not even the USA.

[doford]

I never mentioned christianity but christianity doesn't have as many nutters as islam. Christianity has become moderate and dumbed down. Islam is still nuts.

[Telcontar1962]

I'm not sure I scientific poll has been taken to verify that conclusion. However no religion can be moderate. Since they believe all unrepentant sinners will burn in hell for eternity it seems moderation is not in their vocabulary.

[doford]

In the west we don't set our laws to the bible, we don't kill our daughters in honour killings, we don't chop peoples hands off, we don't murder people for been gay, etc and etc.

The west is ruled by logic, reason and an understanding that everyone is an induvial and should be able to rule there own destiny (for the most part).

Islam is ruled by a small group of men that rule because of there interpretation of the quran and the nonsense found within it.

[Telcontar1962]

Well you have your views. Some of the criticism is justified but some is way out.

You ought to have a look at the history of protestant reformation thinking before stating the west doesn't base its laws or even economics to religion.

Power is just as concentrated in the west as it is anywhere.

[doford]

Power really isn't that concentrated in the west. We have vaste workers unions. elections, share holders, Juries, charities, unemployment benifits, human rights, courts, ect.

Power is spread pretty well from my pov.

[Telcontar1962]

Thats news to me and the rest of humanity. Even this issue regarding the war should tell you much. Was it people's protest or views that changed the picture?

No it was money and the elections coming up. Note democracy is not taking account of people's views once every 4/5 years its doing it every day.

What you saw was a handful of opinions trumping everyone else both in the US, amoungst allies abroad and in Iraq.

Britain, Germany, etc were just the same.

[doford]

I don't get ya.

[Telcontar1962]

I know you don't. Its a rose tinted view you have of those in power. It makes me wonder if you have ever looked at history at all.

[doford]

I don't get ya.

[Telcontar1962]

Workers unions do not represent the workers and haven't since they gained any appreciable size. Its why they aren't that popular.

Human rights? They are recognised as and when those in power choose to do so.

Courts? Judges come from the same social strata whose interests are directly opposed to the common person. They do enough just to contain outright revolt. Its the embodiment of conservatism.

Elections? You get to vote for pre-chosen candidates.

[Telcontar1962]

Unemployment Benefits? I wish they were there for to help the needy and a mechanism fro redistribution of wealth but they most defintely are not. In the hands of politicians they are quite certainly a form of political bribe.

Shareholders? You have to be kidding. Who owns the vast majority of shares? Even pension funds work against ordinary workers as was shown from the 1980's onwards by their own admission.

[Telcontar1962]

Juries are the only form of power sharing I would concede. But as even the contests of the application of US tax law showed judges are quite prepared to bully them if required and lawmakers exclude them as and where they can.

[LumpyRevolution]

This whole phony agenda war has me enraged!

The Constitution tells us not to do this to people!!!

[LumpyRevolution]

The Iraqi people took care of things long before we were there stealing and controlling their oil as part of a broader agenda. and they will be able to rebuild after we get the hell out. Bring the troops home now and stop killing the innocents. Wake up!

[Catacipige]

Genius. I honestly wanted ron paul to win but if he doesnt I wanted Obama to win

[cansurfer1]

He is obviously using "Catch 22" as a model for operations in Iraq.

[TheYoungTurks]

Watch the entire show at theyoungturks(.)com