The Miracle of Israel - God's Hand in History

[yfyee001]

wow... it's history lesson on events leading to Israel's independence in 1948!!

surely a pair of unseen hands r involved that had moved the hearts n minds of men in positions, for the return of HIS peopl back to the promised land:))

[gingowitch]

You should check out happehtheory . com. Maybe it'll teach you scientifically how to become a holy person instead of being victimized and controlled by the forces of evil. @JimQualls

[JimQualls]

@gingowitch Those who claim the eternal promises to Israel and the Jews are are lies are deceived by the ultimate evil.

[gingowitch]

@JimQualls No, those who create suffering are following evil. No?

[gingowitch]

Israel is not a miracle. Circumcision is a major crime against a boy and a plot to make him weaker than he should be. Your duty in life as Jews is to deny your circumcision and accept the Christ.

[JimQualls]

@gingowitch Jesus the Jew of the New Testament was circumcised.

Luke 2:21

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

KJV

[gingowitch]

@JimQualls You defame Jesus and his teaching if you think or say that because Jesus was circumcised that means circumcision is okay. He told the Jews among other things that they should not subject themselves to this "yoke of slavery" and that he restored a man's foreskin on the sabbath day using a miracle. In addition, Paul said that if you allow yourself to be circumcised you will cut yourself off from Christ. So I suggest to you that you do not promote Judaism and circumcision, thanks.

[JimQualls]

@gingowitch Acts 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

KJV

[gingowitch]

@JimQualls You are deluded. Yea in order to spread the message of Jesus he had to get circumcised so the Jews would listen to him. Find my quotes. Man, circumcision is a bane unto this world. It is a plot to make a man's head smaller than it should be. Stop defending penis mutilation and go against it which is what you are supposed to do in order to be just. Jesus said go against your father, not be happy that you are his slave.

[rkg62976]

It is truly amazing when dispensationalists assert that those who hold to biblical Covenant theology are "anti-semitic", or, "anti-Israel", when their own fallacious views of prophecy state that Israel (the modern, nation-state) will sign a "peace treaty" with the Antichrist, and will then be persecuted mercilessly.

Who is truly "anti-semitic"? Dispensational futurists (and their false eschatology), or, Covenant theologians who read the Bible in a consistent fashion (Gen. through Rev.)?

[rkg62976]

John Napier (1550-1617), the first Scottish expositor of Revelation, concerning the day=year principle: "In propheticall dates of daies, weekes, monethes, and yeares, everie common PROPHETICALL DAY IS TAKEN FOR A YEAR.."

*Notice the "old English" style of Napier.

[Napier, John. A Plaine Discovery of the Whole Revelation of St. John, p.1]

[JimQualls]

Psalms 105:8-11 (KJV)

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance

[JimQualls]

Isa 49:14-16

But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

KJV

[JimQualls]

Ps 53:6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

KJV

[JimQualls]

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

KJV

Zech 10:6

And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the Lord their God, and will hear them.

KJV

[rkg62976]

"...of all the tribes of the children of Israel...all the saints within this long tract of time, even all that are the true Israel of God, who are Jews inwardly, of what nation, kindred, tongue, and people soever.."

[John Gill (d.1771), "Exposition on the Whole Bible", Rev.7:4]

*Dr. Gill is simply being consistent with the Reformation on the true identity of the "Israel of God".

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976 Prov 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

KJV

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976

Amos 9:14-15

And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God. 

KJV

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls Rev.21:1,3,10

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth...the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them [saying] I am making all things new..the Bride, the wife of the Lamb...[inherits] the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God..."

Amos 9...fulfilled in Revelation 21, and it includes all the saints from all time (O.T.-N.T.), the true "Israel of God".

Soli Deo Gloria!

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976

Joel 3:1-2

For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

KJV

[JimQualls]

Jer 31:37

Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

KJV

[rkg62976]

Q. Was Abraham a child of God?

A. Yes! (Mt.3:9, 8:11, 22:32; Mk.12:26; Lk.1:55:73, 13:28; Rom.9,11; Gal.3,4; Heb.2,6,7,11; Jas. 2...etc.)

Q. Who are Abraham's true descendants?

A. "...they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (Gal.3:7)

Q. Does physical descendancy constitute one as being a child of Abraham?

A. NO! "...if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal.3:29).

Q. What are unbelieving Jews, according to Jesus?

A. Jn.8:44.

[rkg62976]

Rev.7 gives us the clearest view in all of Scripture as to the identity of the "Israel of God". Rev.7:4 "And I HEARD number of them which were sealed....144,000...."

*Notice that John "heard" the number; he doesn't SEE anything yet.

In Rev.7:9, John now SEES what the number represents: "...a great multitude WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues....clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

*This is the "Israel of God"!

Soli Deo Gloria!

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976 You have NO Scripture to support you interpretation, or perhaps I should say delusions.

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls "You have NO Scripture to support you(sic) interpretation, or perhaps I should say delusions."

That's funny, my responses seem to be FILLED with Scriptural support (and, proper exegesis, I might add); whereas yours are full of quotes taken out of context, and which provide absolutely NO exegesis whatsoever. This is typical with people who are enslaved by their traditions, over and against the Biblical testimony to the contrary.

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976 IF the Author of the Old Testament is a liar becomes the Jesus in the New Testament becomes the Son of a Liar.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 The 144,000 are literal Jews known as the First fruits, the countless saved from all nations are an addition to the 144,000 of Israel. And the 144,000 literal Jews is the first group of saved Jews, while the remnant repents after the Two Witnesses are raptured in Rev. 11. The Book of Revelation mainly focuses on the Church in Israel because Revelations is the Unsealed Book of Daniel..it is an Israel book.

Paul in Romans 11 wrote that National Israel remains the Elect Nation.

[JimQualls]

After Jesus had opened the Scriptures to their understanding this is The LAST question the New Testament records that the disciples asked Jesus before His Ascension.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

KJV

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls said, "...The LAST question the New Testament records that the disciples asked Jesus before His Ascension: Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?..."

rkg's response: And the rest of the book of Acts ANSWERS THIS QUESTION! Rejection by corporate Israel, leads to the gospel going to the Gentiles and believing Jews...all of whom make up "the Israel of God".

Soli Deo Gloria!

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Wrong!

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written. As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as **election** is concerned, **they are loved** on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are **irrevocable**." Romans 11

[rkg62976]

"Jacob said, 'I will not let you go unless you bless me.' And he said to him, 'What is your name?' And he said, 'Jacob.' Then he said, 'Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed" (Gen.32:26-28). So we see that the first usage of the name "Israel" is in the context of God giving it as a SPIRITUAL NAME to ONE MAN who gained a spiritual victory with God and became a nation...Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of this!

[JimQualls]

Ps 105:9-12 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:

12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.

KJV

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us" (2Cor.1:20).

Q. What promises are given to all believers?

A. "ALL the promises of God".

Q. Does this include even the "land promises"?

A. Yes! All the promises, including the land promises, are to the "Israel of God" (Gal.6:16). This is the true, spiritual Israel.

Soli Deo Gloria!

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976 Again, I guess you have a Bible that removed "For Ever" and "Everlasting" and ended with a permission slip to read anyting into the Scriptures you thought you might like?

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls Are you even READING my responses? All those passages in the O.T. that refer to "For Ever", and "Everlasting", are promises KEPT to Israel by the sending of Messiah Jesus; and all the promises are given to the "Israel of God" (Gal.6:16), which NEVER had anything to do with one's racial ethnicity. Again, "Israel", historically, was a spiritual name, given to one man (Jacob) who gained a spiritual victory with God and became a nation.

[StandFirmIsrael]

@rkg62976 Are you a Mormon or a Muslim? They have a "jesus" that claims "For Ever" and "Everlasting" didn't really mean what they said.

[rkg62976]

@StandFirmIsrael It's very sad that a Bible-believing son of the God-ordained Protestant Reformation can quote numerous verses from Scripture (never denying that the God-given covenants were "for ever", and "everlasting", but simply that they are fulfilled in Jesus Christ), and yet an obviously ignorant, dishonest, apparently Christian-in-name-only person can ask such an absurd question..."Are you a Mormon or a Muslim?".

Very sad :(

Semper Reformanda!

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976 If you know when "For Ever" and "Everlasting" end, do you also know when "eternity" ends?

[JimQualls]

@StandFirmIsrael JW's also have a "jesus" who is NOT Divine.

[JimQualls]

Gen 17:19

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

KJV

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls Gen.17:19...Now look to Galatians 4. "Now you, brothers [all believers], like Isaac, are children of promise" (Gal.4:28). It seems as if you only have an O.T. as a part of your Scriptures. But Christians are always to read the O.T. with the light of the N.T., not the other way around...this is Hermeneutics 101;)

[JimQualls]

1 Chron 17:22 For thy people Israel didst thou make thine own people for ever; and thou, Lord, becamest their God.

KJV

[JimQualls]

Jer 16:14-15

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

KJV

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls Now compare Jer.16:14-15, with Jn.14:1-3 and Rev.19:7-9, 20:9, 21:2. The "land of Israel" on earth was only ever meant to be a type of the REAL Jerusalem (Israel, Zion) in heaven! Now look to Rev.21:16...here the exact dimensions of the heavenly Jerusalem are given.

The Scriptures are not difficult to understand, as long as we don't read the O.T. anachronistically into the 21st century nation-state that calls itself "Israel" ;)

[JimQualls]

@rkg62976 I guess you have one of those Bibles that removed "FOR EVER" and "EVERLASTING."

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 The New Jerusalem is seen coming to the earth...she will come to an enlarged Israeli state. Israel will be the capital of the world for all eternity. In Zechariah 12-14 we see the Messiah returning to a pre-Messianic state of Israel besieged by all nations, which is delivered by the Messiah..who then becomes eternal King of Israel. The Angel promised Mary that Jesus would inherit the throne of David..which is an earthly throne..yes, Jesus returns to save Israel "as it is written".

[rkg62976]

4-main points of dispensational futurist errors:

1) the belief that the rapture and 2nd Advent are separate events;

2) the belief in a 7-yr. period of tribulation as this earth's final stage;

3) the belief in a rise of a future Antichrist (during the last 7 yrs.);

4) the belief that the modern nation-state of Israel has THE pivotal role to play in Bible prophecy (during the last 7 yrs.).

*If anyone would care to discuss any of these, I'm more than willing.

Soli Deo Gloria!

[JimQualls]

@rkg 62976 There are TWO completely different New Testament descriptions of the TWO events.

[rkg62976]

@JimQualls I'm sorry, Sir, but you are going to have to actually attempt to prove your assertion. For example, why do dispensational futurists believe that 1Thes.4:16-17 is a DIFFERENT EVENT than that of Mt.13:24-30,36-43. Is it not clear that these two texts are speaking of the SAME EVENT? The "descending" of Jesus in 1Thes.4:16-17 is a clear parallel with Acts.1:9-11, is it not?

*Again, you must PROVE your assertions, rather than just making blanketed, unsupported statements.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 I agree with you here..Jesus returns only once not twice. In fact in Rev. 11 we are shown when the Rapture occurs. The Two Witnesses who the Beast wars against are named in scriptures..they are the Prophets and the Saints of Christ. After 3 1/2 years of persecution and death, they will be raptured because "the dead in Christ will rise first"..after this rapture we see an announcement that the world has become the Kingdom of Christ.

Christians will suffer the Tribulation as well.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman It is important to recognize that the 1260 day time prophecies (given 7 times in Scripture: Dan.7:25, 12:7; Rev.11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5) are all to be read as day=year.

The "little horn" reigns for 1260 years.

The "two witnesses" prophesy "clothed in sackcloth" (a symbol of mourning) for 1260 years.

The "woman [is isolated] in the wilderness" for 1260 years.

The "sea beast" (Rev.13:1-10) reigns for 1260 years (the "sea beast" and "little horn" are the same entity).

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Incorrect...times time half a time, 42 months, 3 1/2 days, 1260 days all mean the same thing...3 1/2 years. The Beast rules for 42 months..he persecutes the Saints and Prophets 1260 days...3 1/2 years..the world will gloat and celebrate over the deaths of the Jews and Israeli saints..this is why Jesus made a parallel prediction of the Beast standing in the Holy Place and the world's armies attacking Israel scattering the Jews again..they happen in the same time frame.

[sugarhitman]

The world will gloat and celebrate over the deaths of the Jews and Israeli saints for 3 1/2 years i.e. throughout the duration of the Beast's persecution of Israel for 3 1/2 years. And just when it appears that Israel will be completely eliminated the Messiah will return to save Israel.

[sugarhitman]

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem...***the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him***." Zech. 14

[sugarhitman]

Jesus repeats Zechariah 14 in Luke 21 and Matthew 24..both mistakenly believed to about AD. 70. Zechariah foresees the Messiah (this scripture proves the Messiah is God also) and the Holy Angels returning to deliver Israel in a Final Conflict.

Modern Israel is just as relevant and beloved by God as Israel under King David..those who suggest otherwise are in opposition to God's Plans for the Salvation of Israel and the Jewish people.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman There were two systems of prophetic interpretation led by the Jesuits during the counter-Reformation. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) taught that the 1260 days were to be fulfilled in the distant future (hence the name "futurists", of which modern dispensational futurists derive their false prophecies); and Luis de Alcasar (1554-1613) taught the preterist interpretation. Both schools refuted historic Protestantism which taught the day=year principle, as I have laid out for you.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Um Okkkkk...so if Jesus has the Beast persecuting Israel until His return..are you saying the Beast..which is an individual, lives for 1260 years? Jesus says those days would be "shortened"...1260 years certainly is not "shortening".

Explain.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Um Okkkkk...so if Jesus has the Beast persecuting Israel until His return..."

Can you quote a Scripture text for me, please? And if you are going to use Mt.24, please don't bother. Mt.24 is not to be read and studied in isolation of other unambiguous texts that clearly state what the Antichrist is.

And where did I ever imply that the modern nation-state of Israel has something to do with Bible prophecy?

I can assure you, it does not.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Read Matthew 24, and Luke 21..do you see the parallel events, surrounding Jerusalem with armies and the Beast standing in the Holy Place..AND the accompanying scattering of the Jews, trampling of Jerusalem (which is given as 42 months in Rev. 11) until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled?

If you think this has nothing to do with Israel you are soo wrong..in fact, Jesus warns believers in Israel that when this happens flee to the mountains and avoid entering Jerusalem.

Explain.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Again, Mt.24 (and Lk.21) have nothing to do with our discussion. But, since you insist, we shall turn to a discussion of Mt.24 (Lk.21).

1) Dispensational/futurists believe that Mt.24 is ONLY speaking about the 7 last years of earth's history.

2) Preterists assert that Mt.24 is ONLY speaking about the temple destruction in 70 A.D.

*Both are fallacious! Jesus is answering TWO questions in Mt.24: 1) temple destruction, and 2) His 2nd Advent (*see Mt.24:3 for the two questions).

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Correct..Jesus was not only referring to the Temple being destroyed. But the important point is that Jesus Himself (His Return) ends the trampling of Jerusalem "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn." Matt.24

That means Israel will exist as a state before the return of Christ "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." The Sabbath is a state Law in Israel.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "...the important point is that Jesus Himself (His Return) ends the trampling of Jerusalem..."

Again, please give a Scripture quotation, so I can respond with a proper exegesis of the text.

Are you speaking of Rev.11:2? If so, then I assert that Rev.11:2 has NOTHING to do with the literal, modern-day, nation-state of Israel.

[sugarhitman]

 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn." Matt.24. Why will the nations mourn? Because the Gentile nations attacking Israel will be destroyed. "Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon [Israel]. Rev. 16. "Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured.." Rev.19

[sugarhitman]

And the icing on the cake:

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near...For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of **all that has been written**. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21

All that has been written..there you go. Israel is central to the return of Christ.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Again, please give a PROPER Scripture quotation, which would include: book, chapter, and verse(s). You only cited "Luke 21". This is not a proper Scripture quotation. I believe you were referring to Lk.21:20-24, is this correct? This text is speaking about the temple destruction in 70 A.D., NOT the time just prior to the 2nd Advent. This is what happens when you don't have a proper eschatological hermeneutic. This is why I said that our discussion cannot begin in Mt.24, Lk.21!

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 You should already know those scriptures sir.

"For this is the time of punishment in fulfilment of all that has been written." Luke 21:22

That means Jesus was not referring to AD. 70, an event that did not lead to his return which is the climax of all the prophetic writings.

"**At that time** they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Luke 21:27

He returns during this event...therefore AD. 70 is disqualified.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Lk.21:20-24 is speaking of the temple destruction in 70 A.D. Verses 25-28 are speaking of the 2nd Advent of Christ.

Your simply reading your own futurist ideas into the text without any warrant.

v.22..."to fulfill all that is written"

Q. Written where?

A. Dan.9:27, (which Christ referred to in v.20) which is speaking of the temple destruction in 70 A.D., and has NOTHING to do with Antichrist. Thus, v.22 was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Jesus was not just referring to the Temple..but "everything you see here." Luke 21. He is repeating Ezekiel 38:

"In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel...every wall will fall to the ground."

"Q. Written where?"

In the Prophets of course. "It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD. This is the day I have spoken of." Ezekiel 39:8

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Jesus was not just referring to the Temple..but "everything you see here." Luke 21" Again, no verse number is given...please remember to give: book, chapter, AND verse...thanks ;)

Now you are veering from the exegesis of Lk.21, and citing Eze.38-39? Why must you jump around so?

Eze.38-39, the "Gog/Magog war": this is fought AFTER the millennium! Notice Rev.20:7-8: "And when the thousand years are ENDED...Satan will be released...and will come out.., Gog and Magog...etc."

[sugarhitman]

Ezekiel's Gog War is not the Gog war of Rev. "From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God." Eze. 39:22..the Saints who reign with Christ will have known that for 1000 years before the Gog War. of Rev. "I will now bring Jacob back from captivity and will have compassion on all the people of Israel." Eze. 39:25

The Saints who reign with Christ will not have to be returned from captivity..Satan doent even enter the city in Rev. Rev. 16 is the Gog war of Eze.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Ezekiel's Gog War is not the Gog war of Rev.[20:7-8]"

This is the problem with your futurist interpretation: you fail in your hermeneutic (as all dispensational futurists do) because you absolutely refuse to read the unfulfilled prophecies of the O.T. with the light of the N.T. teaching on the same issues.

Rev.16 says NOTHING about the Gog/Magog war.

The "kings of the east" have nothing to do with earthly nations coming against the modern nation-state of Israel.

[sugarhitman]

Im sorry Rev. 19 The Great Supper of the Birds is the same as that in Ezekiel "You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls— all of them fattened animals from Bashan."

"so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." Rev. 19

Eze.'s Gog War is Rev. 19's war of Armegeddon.

[sugarhitman]

"They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign LORD." Eze. 39

Does Satan and his hordes plunder the Saints while Christ is among them? "They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them." Rev.20

They do not .

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman One more time! When you quote a verse from Scripture, please reference the BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE (ESPECIALLY THE VERSE)! I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself.

If you are referring to Eze.39:10, then read a modern translation.  I prefer the ESV, as it is an excellent translation.

The ones who "seize the spoil" are the saints who go out from the "new Jerusalem" (Rev.21:2) after the lake of fire has done its work.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind." Eze. 39:28

How does this apply to the Saints who rules with Christ for 1000 years?

"And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me.". Ez. 39:23

The Saints committing sin going into exile during the 1000 year rule of Christ?

Not the same wars.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Eze.39:23,28-- Notice that God is addressing the fact that the *wicked* will have knowledge of God's prior judgments. These texts are not addressed to the saints who dwell safely in the new Jerusalem.

v.28 "Then they [that is, the wicked] will know that I am the LORD.."

v.23 "And the nations [that is, the wicked nations consisting of all the resurrected wicked after the 1,000 years] will know that that people...etc."

Perfectly consistent exegesis.

Keep trying, though ;)

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 "**From that day forward** the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God." Eze. 39:22

The Saints will have known that prior to the Gog War of Rev.20..for the simple fact they rule with Him for 1000 years. Then we have Gog and his being buried by the Israelis, while in Rev. 20 the earth discloses it's dead for judgement who are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Two different wars..your antiIsraelism prevents you from a correct interpretation.

[sugarhitman]

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem..the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him." Zech. 14

[sugarhitman]

"9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name...It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure....Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." Zech. 14

Thats the Second Coming..and He is returning to Israel.

[sugarhitman]

"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will make the leaders of Judah, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

[sugarhitman]

9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. ***They will look on me, the one they have pierced***, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." Zech. 12

"26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written." Romans 11:26

I rest my case. *smile*

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Indeed, the Gog/Magog war will demonstrate God's power to ALL of His saints.

"What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known..." (Rom.9:22).

Again, a consistent hermeneutic requires the unfulfilled O.T. prophecies to be read with the light of the N.T. teaching(s).

"antiIsaelism"? Really? Are we just making stuff up as we go now?

Of course, the "Israel of God" consists of all the saints, from Genesis to Revelation.

I am PRO-ISRAEL OF GOD! ;)

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Yeah, but in Ezekiel's Gog war:

1. The Israelis will be taken as capitives.

2. They will be plundered

3. Obviously, they remain sinners.

4. They do not yet know that the Lord is the True God.

5. They are killed by the sword.

Non of those apply to the immortal Saints of Rev. 20 who rules with God for 1000 years. In fact, in Rev. 20 its not even a war.

Those who claim National Israel has been forsaken by God are anti-Israel I'm afraid.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Those who claim National Israel has been forsaken by God are anti-Israel I'm afraid".

I said nothing of the kind. God has some of His elect within modern Israel (and many other countries that are not predominantly Christian).

However, you have to specify what you mean by "Israel". Do you mean:

1) its people;

2) its land;

3) its worship.

*Also, the true "Israel of God" lives forever ;)

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Those who claim National Israel has been forsaken by God are anti-Israel I'm afraid".

I said nothing of the kind. God has some of His elect within modern Israel (and many other countries that are not predominantly Christian).

However, you have to specify what you mean by "Israel". Do you mean:

1) its people;

2) its land;

3) its worship.

*Also, the true "Israel of God" lives forever ;)

[sugarhitman]

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written. As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as **election** is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are **irrevocable**." Romans 11:25-29

Clearly National Israel.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman It is always amazing when dispensationalists only quote from a few verses of Rom.11, when the whole chapter speaks of a REMNANT of the physical descendants of Israel being saved. "And so [Gk. οὕτως, outōs, "in this way"] all Israel will be saved..." (Rom.11:26).

Q. In what way?

A. That there will be a hardening "in part", but that there will always be a remnant of believers among the physical descendants of Abraham and Jacob.

*You'll actually have to provide some EXEGESIS!

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Thats why Israel as a collective body has not been forsaken. Paul, in Romans 11: 25-29 is not speaking of individuals but Israel as a Collective.He didn't say that the "remnant" shall remain partially blinded for a season..he said Israel..and "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from **Jacob**. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

National Israel is destined for Salvation.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman

Also, I noticed that you didn't answer any of my questions concerning the true identity of the "Israel of God"

Does Israel refer to:

1) its land?

2) its people?

3) its worship?

Still waiting for your answer...

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Irrelevant..Saint Paul wrote: "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

That means despite Israel's current enmity..God has not taken away His gifts nor His call for Israel to the nations. That means they remain the Elect Nation..so I am speaking of the Jewish people as a Collective...and so is Saint Paul.,

[sugarhitman]

Zechariah 12: "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."

National Israel will one day repent..and you will be proven wrong.

[sugarhitman]

"In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land...The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine...Their [Israel] bloodguilt, which I have not pardoned, I will pardon. The LORD dwells in Zion!."

[sugarhitman]

The world has done just that, and today, they have divided the land of Judah and Jerusalem. Joel foresees the ultimate Salvation of National Israel, and the Final Judgment of all nations for their crimes committed against ethnic Jews and dividing their land..because "God's **gifts** and his call are irrevocable." Romans 11

So stop robbing the Jews what belongs to them..they are still God's "Inheritance" despite their temporary anti-Gospel stance. Your doctrine is hostile to God's Plan.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Are you asserting that the "land promises" made in the O.T. refer to the modern, nation-state of Israel? This is your own tradition being read into the Scriptures, a classic case of eisegesis. Notice that there is a "true" Jerusalem, an heavenly one (Heb.12:22), of which the earthly was only ever a "type/shadow". Rev.21:16 even gives us the exact dimensions of the new (heavenly) Jerusalem.

You are simply looking in the wrong direction for God's prophetic fulfillment.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Sad that you can't answer very simple questions. I can, and would, from Scripture.

Jn.8:39-47-- here Jesus explicitly denies that Israelites ("Jews") are Abraham's seed simply because they are physical descendants. It is also noteworthy that you omit verses 30-32 from your quotation of Rom.11, where Paul actually goes on to explain what he means by the antecedent verses.

Indeed, inconsistency is the sure sign of a failed argument.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Um, Jesus is referring to individuals and not Israel as a Collective..even Paul says not all who are Israel are of Israel..and that individual branches will be cut off...but the Nation as a whole remains the Elect Nation. You are simply too anti-Israel which will not allow you to see the truth.

Both the OT and the NT are in agreement..National Israel is destined for Salvation, and you anti-Israel people hate it...so be it...it will not change that fact.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Um, Jesus is referring to individuals and not Israel as a Collective.."

Jn.8:39-47-- Jesus would here be referring to ALL unbelieving Jews. And the point is that no one (including Jews today) is the seed of Abraham simply by physical descent.

Paul makes clear who the seed of Abraham is (Gal.3:29).

Are you asserting that "Israel" refers to land only?

Also the term "anti-Israel" is fallacious; I am pro-"Israel of God" (all of my brothers and sisters in Christ).

[sugarhitman]

""In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land." Joel 3

Are these saved Jews only..or is God referring to Collective Israel? Why would God be angry if the nations divide Judea..after all they have been "rejected". Explain.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Joel 3, "Are these saved Jews only..or is God referring to Collective Israel?"

Neither. This passage is referring to ALL the elect from ALL time, the "Israel of God", which includes all saved Jews, and all saved gentiles.

Again, the problem with your dispensational hermeneutic is that you fail to see that all the promises of restoration in the O.T., that have not yet been fulfilled, refer to ALL the saved (2Cor.1:20).."All the promises of God in him (Christ) are affirmed..."

[sugarhitman]

Really? Can you show me in Joel 3 where Gentiles are mentioned? Joel does not make a distinction between saved or unsaved Jews . God is going to judge the world for their crimes committed against the Jews whether they are saved or not..because "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

And this concludes our dialogue..byeeeee.

[rkg62976]

@sugar Rev.19 has two suppers: 1) for the bride (in heaven), and 2) for the fowl of the air who feast upon the bodies of the wicked who are slain at the 2nd Advent.

After the millennium, Christ and His saints return to earth (in the new Jerusalem), the wicked will be raised (all of them), and will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Armageddon is Christ's 2nd Advent (and Rev.19); Eze.38-39 happens AFTER the millennium (Rev.20:7-8).

This is a consistent hermeneutic.

Simple enough? ;)

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman So, since you quote from Eze.38-39, I must point out that futurists do not have a proper view of the millennium. If they did, then they would see that the Gog/Magog war happens AFTER the millennium, and that no such nations as Russia, China, Iran..or any other nation east of the Euphrates, have anything to do with coming up against the modern, nation-state of Israel.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Notice what Reformed baptist scholar Dr. John Gill (d.1771) says concerning the day=year principle: "..the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months [Rev.11:2]...make just three years and a half: but then this date cannot be understood strictly and literally...reckoning A DAY FOR A YEAR, after the prophetic style, make 1260 YEARS...(Rev.12:6:14, 13:5; Dan.7:25).."

[Gill, John. Exposition on the Whole Bible. Rev.11:2].

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Hmmm doesnt sound very convincing..especially when all the given numbers 42 months, 1260 days, 3 1/2 days, times time 1/2 times are easily interpreted as 3 1/2 years. Also it fits in with the short reign and persecution of the Beast...he is said to rule for 42 months and persecutes the Saints for 1260 days? How can he persecute for 1260 years when he only lives for 42 months?

The numbers means the same thing..3 1/2 years.

I want you to explain..not looking for quotes.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Hmmm doesnt sound very convincing.."

Biblical evidence for the day=year principle, and why it should be utilized in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation: Num.14:34 (day=year priciple); Eze.4:6 (day=year principle); Dan.9:24-27 (day=year principle)...

You said, "How can he persecute for 1260 years when he only lives for 42 months?..."

All the 1260 days (42 mo.; time, times, half a time) are day=year...and they are all speaking of the SAME time period.

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 So, you are saying that the Beast lives for 1260 years and persecutes believers for 1260 years? Kinda goes against Jesus' saying those days would be shortened and "but when he does come, he must remain for a little while" Rev. 17...it also goes against Daniel's that he would persecute the Saints for "times, time, and the dividing of time"..that is 3 1/2 years.

Explain.

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman "Kinda goes against Jesus' saying those days would be shortened..." Again, Mt.24 is read incorrectly by both futurists (like yourself), and preterists (like Kenneth L. Gentry, and Gary DeMar).

Daniel's prophecy of the "little horn" persecuting the saints for "time, times, and the dividing of time" (Dan.7:25), is the SAME time prophecy as the 42 months, and the 1260 days...and they are all day=year...1260 Years!

Why are you not understanding? Have I not explained clearly enough?

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 But in Revelation the Beast only exists after the opening of the Abyss which has yet to occur, and then he is to live for 1260 years? Persecutes Israel and believers for 1260 years? "If those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

1260 years of sustained persecution is awfully long. Also are you not a "futurist" or are you suggesting the Beast is already here?

[rkg62976]

@sugarhitman Again, don't bring Mt.24 into our discussion until we have established the truth of other, unambiguous texts first.

"...are you suggesting the Beast is already here?" Yes! The Antichrist has been here for over 1260 years!

It's "deadly wound" is now healed. It's primary "speaker" is, and will be, the "false prophet" (the "earth beast" of Rev.13:11-17).

The 1260 years is over...Again, this time prophecy is not the be-all-end-all of prophetic fulfillment!

[sugarhitman]

@rkg62976 Really? When did he arrive...when did the oceans turn to blood? When have the Two Witnesses witness for God at Jerusalem for 1260 "years"?

Saint Paul wrote in Thessa. that the coming of Jesus would destroy the Beast, as well as does Revelations..so if the 1260 years are over....where is Christ?

[Tekhelet75]

Amen. Thanks Jim Qualls for refuting the ignorant posters who hated this video. The Word of G-d stands always. Baruch HaShem.

[JimQualls]

@Tekhelet75 Thanks, your kind words are a great way to start the day!

[divinekeyministries]

And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you!

Deut. 28:68

These are God's true people, which are still to return to Israel in God's time.

[JimQualls]

@divinekeyministries Jer 16:14-15

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

KJV

[karlkarlkarl1234]

"God's hand in history"!!!

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

More like violent unethical mass murder & terrorism to submit an innocent native population into fear & submission and then stealing their land. What an absolute crock of shit this video is. I suppose it's also "holy" that Israel has more human rights abuses and crimes against humanity than all other nations combined? Or that they are systematically ethnically cleansing the rightful population?

May God have mercy on the deluded & ignorant.

[JimQualls]

Dear Kari, Dr. Reagan was talking about the G-d of Israel, the Creator of the universe. Those who worship gods from the dark side, of course, could find complaint with Dr. Reagan, I am sure.

[karlkarlkarl1234]

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan" (Rev 2:9)

Ashkanazis aren't even the true Israelis.

Not christian can support a nation of ethnic cleansing, built upon racial hate, war-crimes and abuses against humanity. If you do such you are not a Christian in the eyes of God, you are a hypocrite.

[lucasleivia]

do you know what the abomination is? its the perversion of gods work, what better to pervert than the teaching of christ. scumbags like you managed to pervert the bible and misconstrue christianity so much that you actually use it to justify your prejudice. flying in the face of christs holy teaching; pervertinig our bible to justify the murder of innocents, the extermination of a race and waging of holy war against a once peaceful people. that is for me an abomination, israel is the abomination

[JimQualls]

Luke 2:30-32 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

KJV

[lucasleivia]

so israel was formed by a special interest group who subverted our governments to serve their purposes against our own interests. and he neglected to mention that british stayed there to police the jews because we were afraid of what would happen to the arabs if we withdrew, and that it wasnt "crossfire"you condescending scum bag it was terrorist attrocities commited by the men you are glorifying! all evil tricks, no good has ever come of israel and none ever will.

[JimQualls]

Dear luscasleovoa: Jews are eternal. Jew hater are not. Jew hater end up in hell with Hitler and murderous moe and his desert demons.

[lucasleivia]

"desert demons" lol thats a pretty typical statement from an israeli apologist. you actually think arabs are somehow sub-human. I guess its a pre requisite, if you support israel you are either mis informed, or a supremacist cultist. I dont even know why i waste my time trying to enlighten people like you. for the record im a real christian

[JimQualls]

Jews are eternal. Jew haters end up in hell with Hitler and his Middle Eastern partners in crime..

[lucasleivia]

there are no chosen people in christianity all men are descended from adam and eve and are equal in gods eyes. the israelites are the inheritors of abrahams faith not his flesh. christ corrected the misguided jewish faith, those who rejected the teaching were estranged from god. the tricks you mention in this video sound more akin to the devils work than that of god.

[JimQualls]

Dealr Lucasleivia, You are much of a Bible reader, are you?

Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

KJV

[lucasleivia]

the bible was not written by god. it was written by men and grew out of an evil religion from the butchers of sumerian empire. there was more than one bible and many gospels written, which is true? which MAN decided that? it is no more the work of god than the cathedrals men build, its just a tool to spread the faith, but like all things men make it is both inspired by god and tainted by evil. If you cant see that simple truth then you are damned

[lucasleivia]

Old Testament= cruelty, supremacism, genocide, incest, greed, violence

New Testament = peace, love, forgiveness, equality.

christ was sent to us to teach us the truth about gods will. god created adam and eve, and all men and all women equally are descended from these. the jewish religion is flawed, the jews are not all automatically gods chosen people some are and some are not, there is no blood covenant except the fabrications of a fanatical jewish mystic. Israel is the abomination

[sholoborx]

Israel is winning because of GOD

[mohamed699]

israel didnt Won the wars Becouse they are heros or strong

they Won becouse the amreican tecnolgy

any thing Els?

[JimQualls]

Dear moe69, 1-1/2 billion moehammadans can't get a few Jews out of Jerusalem,..nuff said.

[lucasleivia]

who is helping them? god or satan?

designing weapons of mass destruction, dispossesing and murdering innocent people these are not the hobbies of gods people! porn merchants, bankers, politicians, weapons dealers, using media and publicity to subvert free countries to there will, usurpers and communists... these are not the occupations of gods people. dont call yourself a christian

[JimQualls]

Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

KJV

[gracetalks1]

interesting.my aunt was a personal secretary for Clement Attlee and went to Cuba with him, all the machinations behind the scenes, i not political, Almighty God OF ISRAEL IS SOVEREIGN,

[sheepwoman]

This is a great video, I love Israel and David Reagan is great!! thanks for posting.

Karen

[ThunderPigBlog]

Thank You for posting this, and may we always be on Israel's side.

[lenpaxton]

Jim,

This is a great presentation by Dr. Reagan.

Thanks for posting this great vid

Len

[lotis333]

Amen! Thanks for sharing.

[makesyoumadd]

5 stars.

[mcalien24]

its a miracle that a terrorist state can go on getting my tax dollars without being criticized for its major human rights violations

[JimQualls]

Dear Mcalien24: Which Islaimc/Fascist terrorist state are you talking about..500 spaces or less does not allow room to list all the Muslim terrorist states..Thanks

[mcalien24]

its not suprising your choosing do deflect attention from the fact that im obviosly talking about israel. however, ill be happy to talk about Islamic/Fascist terrorist states that are getting my tax dollars as well.

this video is about israel, not the states you or I could present so we dont have to talk about the truth and reality of israel. make a video about them, and ill comment appropriately

choose not to acknowledge the truth, or you can be a man and apply moral standards to all equally.

[JimQualls]

Dear MCAlien: Self Defense against Islamic/Fascist bombers does NOT constitute human rights violations. Are you suggesting that Jews shoudl ALLOW Islamic/Fascists to murder them so they can STEAL the Land of Israel from the Jews?

[mcalien24]

steal? wow...your obviously not aware of facts. Im not advocating your spin of my comments by any means. The UN, B'Tselem, human rights watch... all detail what i was insinuating, not just myself.

Its nearly impossible to have a conversation about the middle east when one side begins with a distortion of reality. peace

[o7jimmy]

I love a video that shows and tells the truth.

Jehovah God and His Son Jesus be Praised.

[o7jimmy]

Wonderful video and Thanks for sharing. To the Lord Jesus, Glory forever and ever!

[o7jimmy]

Praise God in the Highest.

[JimQualls]

Thanks, Jimmy