Tafseer Sura 4 157 contradiction revisited

[Texas75023]

Greetings. You cannot really understand or address the problem in the Quran documented in this video. Can you?

I find that ALL Mohammedans are unable to grasp and understand and debate this fatal flaw in the Quran which condemns the Quran under ITS OWN WORDS.

If you can find a SINGLE ERROR in the Quran, it is not perfect as it claims, is it? No, it is not. And therefore ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, it condemns ITSELF as NOT BEING the Word of God.

Take your Quran seriously and Reject it.

[Texas75023]

There is a clear strategy in the Quran. It attempts to borrow credentials from the Bible and from the God of the Bible.

But the message of the Quran is different from the message of the Torah, Psalms and Bible, and is therefore wrong.

However, those who are committed and programmed from birth through massive indoctrination, MUST DEFEND the Quran, even though it clearly differs in message and contents (including facts and details of historical matters) from the Torah and Bible.

[MrAll41]

The Bible is not the Gospel and I do not believe that this verse is mentioning about the Bible (as is it not the Gospel)!

The verse before makes things clearer.

[Texas75023]

MrA, the Quran is incoherent and inconsistent on the issue, my friend.

If the Quran says in Sura 5.47 'Let the people of the Gospel judge'... and YOU CLAIM the Gospel DOES NOT EXIST, then there ARE NO PEOPLE OF THE GOSPEL.

The REAL PROBLEM for the Quran and those who worship it, brother, is that it CLAIMS to be a continuation message of the Torah, Psalms and Bible, but the authot of the Quran knew NOTHING of those messages, except what he learned by happenstance.

[kkwi5305]

the second half of the verse does matter.

because the second half clearly states you forgot part of your covenant and that God will punish you for it.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, why would the author of the Quran claim Christians had forgotten a part of a covenant that Mhmd declares does not exist? This is logically incoherent, sister.

This is the irrefutable contradiction in the Quran. The Crucifixion happened, and Jesus died. On the 3rd Day, Jesus rose from the Dead and appeared to His followers, who had seen Him die. They saw the marks of Crucifixion in His hands and His side.

The Quran contradicts itself by declaring a Covenant exists.

[kkwi5305]

where does prophet mohammed (pbuh) say that God has no covenant with christians?

God definitely has a covenant with everyone. otherwise it would be totally unfair to put people in hell.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, the Covenant with Christians was established by the Crucifixion and Shedding of Blood on the Cross by Jesus the Christ. Mohammed conjectures that these events did not happen.

Therefore, Mohammed makes claims that directly refute the existence of the Covenant. It really is simple if you understood Covenants made by the God of Abraham, sister.

There is no Covenant with 'everyone', kkwi. But there IS AN OFFER by God to allow you to enter His Covenant which Jesus established on the Cross.

[kkwi5305]

okay this is where the misunderstanding is. we both have different ideas of what a covenant is.

in islam, a covenant is a promise to believe in God. Muslims believe all people are born into this covenant. That's why Muslims say that all babies and children are muslim- regardless of their parents religion. do you understand?

[kkwi5305]

Muslims don't believe in original sin.

We don't believe God damns every person to hell before they are born.

So we don't believe Jesus had to die for our sins.

So why on earth would we believe in the crucifixion?

Our system of sin and forgiveness does not require Jesus to die.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, that is because you do not believe the Prophets, and you do not believe the message of the Prophets before Mohammed. That is all.

The concept of original sin and sin itself is poorly understood by Mohammedism and its followers.

The Crucifixion itself is a historical fact and reality, my friend. I can understand you not getting the spiritual significance of the Crucifixion. But your leader Mohammed attempts to deny the entire event, not its meaning. This is where he messed up..

[kkwi5305]

THE FULL VERSE which you so conveniently forgot to include

"And from those who call themselves Christians We accepted their covenant, but they forgot part of what was expounded to them; so We incited enmity and hatred among them until the day of resurrection."

This is a prophecy which correctly predicts that in the future Christians will hate each other- as we can see, the christian church has been split into hundreds of different churches- all holding contempt for one another.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, leaving out the 2nd haf of the Ayyat is not 'convenient forgetting'. It is focussing on the critical aspect of the contradiction, my friend.

The Quran admits that Christians have a Covenant with God. There is ONLY ONE Covenant which has been established between Christians and the God of Abraham. It is the Covenant established by Jesus, when He was Crucified and shed His blood and Died on the Cross.

This is the glaring and damning contradiction in the Quran that proves it false.

[kkwi5305]

A covenant is a Shahadah- it just means you have to promise to believe in God.

You're the one adding in stuff about blood sacrifices.

Everyone took a covenant way back when Adam was first made. We all said to God "We hear and We obey".

And then God took covenants from Jews and christians too. It's the same covenant, again and again. You have to promise to obey God.

You've just added a whole mythology about sacrificial lambs and original sin.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, the statement to join Mohammedism, the Shahadah, is not a Covenant. That is simply an erroneous teaching you have been told.

You do not understand the Covenant Abraham made with God and God made with Abraham. It was MUCH MORE than just Abraham saying a few words. Abraham was circumcised as a sign of the Covenant in his flesh. This is why Mohammedan males are circumcised, to attempt to lay claim to membership in this same Covenant. But they do so in vain, not following the Word of God.

[kkwi5305]

muslim males are circumcised for hygiene reasons. the inside of the foreskin is dirty. God does not accept the prayers of people with urine or discharge on their bodies. you must first wash and purify yourself and then offer your prayers.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, Jesus taught that it was NOT that which goes into a man (food from dirty hands) that defiles a man. It is what comes out of his heart and his mouth that defiles a man.

Does Islam really teach God cannot 'accept the prayers of people with urine on their bodies'?

What about a prisoner in chains given no water or place to wash? Are their prayers blocked by a quick splash of urine? No. I think you'll come up with some excuse or reason around the illogic of your claim.

[kkwi5305]

God excuses people who do not have access to water.

[kkwi5305]

The covenant God made with the christians is clearly in Surah 5:111- "And We inspired the apostles to believe in Me and My messenger. They said, "We believe; witness that we surrrender to God." The disciples promised to believe in God and God said if they disbelieved they would be punished. That's the covenant.

[Texas75023]

kkwi, actually not, my friend. There is no mention of a Covenant in the imaginary events of 5.111

No the Covenant of 5.14 can only mean the Covenant established by the Crucifixion and Death of Jesus on the Cross, my friend.

Your teachers have simply changed the definition of 'Covenant' to dilute it, or water it down to insignificance.

[Nakdimon316]

Sorry son, But there was never a covenant made with christians. EVER. All the covenants that God made were with Jews. Both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. So, again, Allah shows his ignorance of his supposed past actions.

[kkwi5305]

Oh God only made covenants with Jewish people. Silly me. I forgot jews are the chosen ones. sorry sir. don't mind us. we're just silly muslims and christians.we don't know what we're talking about. but now that you've told me the truth, i believe you. thank you so much sir.

[Nakdimon316]

Yes he did. Show me where God made a promise of a covenant with Christians or Muslims in the Tenach. Since the tenach is the Basis for all later revelations, you have to find it there. Unless you will make the unfounded and bizarre claim that it has been corrupted. Then the burden of proof is on you to show that Judaism and christianity were supposed to be Islam, but got distorted into Judaism and Christianity. Go ahead and demonstrate that point. LOL!

[kkwi5305]

It is no coincidence that Jerusalem is the holy city for all three religions- we are supposed to be one my brother. The Jews racialised their religion and christians started worshipping a corpse. this is not how things were supposed to be.

[Nakdimon316]

yeah and Muslims went licking a black rock, worshipped towards a pagan shrine and claimed Abraham did the same. Jerusalem is no excuse for Islam. Islam had nothing to do with it. there is nothing in the Quran that claims anything about Jerusalem. So leave Jerusalem be, bro. You can have your Mecca. Who would want that in a God forsaken place anyways?

[kkwi5305]

okay sure thank you for letting us have Mecca lol we owe you.

anyway hugs and kisses. Are you jewish? if you are, I love you. The Jews in britain are lovely. They protested with us when Gaza was bombed. Peace bro

[Nakdimon316]

Oh I'm sure they were. I know there are Jewish appeasers everywhere. But dont count me in. I stand with Zion.

[kkwi5305]

oh okay. well there's always time to change your mind. we can't fight forever. somethings got to give sooner or later. Peace and love to you bro

[Texas75023]

Nakdimon, not sure who specifically you are posting to.

The New Covenant was revealed to the Jews first, and in fact ALL of Jesus disciples were Jewish, including Saul of Tarsus who was commissioned by Jesus to spread the news of the New Covenant to those outside the Jewish community.

The 'Christian' religion is in fact an extension of the Vine of Israel. It always has been and and always will be. Through Abraham ALL nations will be blessed.

[ujjalmazumder]

i will not argue with you more, not because i don't have answers, but simply because this leads to nothing. I just hope you c the light one day, and ofcourse you will say the same to, and its ok. Peace be uppon you and bear witness that i am a muslim.

[Texas75023]

Well, ujjal, I have presented the Truth to you, and it is your choice to either accept the Truth or Reject the Truth, my friend.

I appreciate the fact that you have been civil and respectful in your exchanges.

I will continue to pray that God grants your eyes to open and your ears to hear, so that you may receive the revelation of the Son of God and become a true muslim who submits to the Son of God. You cannot submit to God unless you submit to His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

[ujjalmazumder]

just one random exampel of mistakes of traslating, is the name of peter. His name was not even peter, or anything like it. his name meant something like a rock ( or his nickname was rock, dont remember ) and when it was translated in greek, he was named petros wich means rock in greek. Then it is again translated to peter in english....so do you see that translations are not as good as the original one?

[Texas75023]

ujjal, that is the funny thing of it, my friend. The Quran changes the names of ALL the great men of God. It changes Abraham ti 'Ibraheem'. It changes Moses name. It changes Angel Gabriel's name to 'Jibreel'. It changes Jesus name from 'Yeshua' to 'Issa'.

Original records of errors and falsehoods are scarcely an improvement over the claim of gradual, but unproven, translation errors, my friend.

.

[kkwi5305]

the bible has westernised the names of all prophets.

arabic is a semitic language, like hebrew. what's your point exactly?

[ujjalmazumder]

as the quran. If you translate it in other languages, it will not give you the full meaning of the quran. It kan only be understood perfectly in the original language arabic. And don't you think that God should protect his book? The quran is the same as it was for 1400 years ago. Not even a single dot have been changed in 1400 years.

[Texas75023]

ujjal, it only that were true, my friend, there would be no need for the Hadiths to attempt to explain in man's words, every subtle meaning and incompletely described doctrine and dogma.

I wish it were true, my friend, because then the Quran would explain the great mysteries it left behind, like why did the author of the Quran not know anything about the Christian Covenant with God? Why did he think MARY was also God?

[ujjalmazumder]

i agree that there is many words that can have different meaning. But the quran clearifys it self by saying look at the profet. thats why we use hadiths ( sayings of the profet ) also. As to the second part of your answer, i am afraid it is you who are wrong here. Because the quran is ment to eternity. And if you take a quick search, then you will find that there is a minor sect today wich claims Mary pbuh to be God.

[Texas75023]

ujjal, that is certainly a nice loop-hole left inthe Quran.

But don't you think the Quran is the word of your Allah, written in a book by your Allah himself? It makes no sense, my friend, that your Allah would go to the effort, in the middle of running a Universe, to write a book that is so full of holes that 600,000 Hadiths have to be written and examined and scrutinized by MEN to decide how to explain the Quran.

I'll address the Mary claim next.

[Texas75023]

ujjal(2), the question of Mary being in the Trinity and thought a God has never been a Biblical doctrine of the Christians, my friend. It may have been in the minds of Pagan Arabs who converted to Christianity, but retains some of their Pagan superstitions.

But if that IS the case, it means that Mhmd uttered his sayings to speak to and address a very few people in his immediate locale. The Quran would THEN be meaningless to everyone else who did not fit this circumstance.

[kkwi5305]

How many different interpretations of the Bible exist?

How many different churches have been set up to cater for all those interpretations?

Let me help you name a few- Catholic, anglican, jehovah's witness, mormon, latter day saints, evangelist, presbyterian, methodist, pentecoastal......

CLEARLY CHRISTIANS DON'T NEED ANY HELP INTERPRETING THE BIBLE.

your doing a really great job. BTW your Bible is scrutinzed and interpreted by MEN too, so what's your point?

[ujjalmazumder]

But you have ONE little problem....as a person once said ( i do not remember right now, but it is well known by many priests), today we can not even find a copy, of a copy, of a copy, of a copy, of a copy of the original bible...and the original language is not even accessable today ( very few people talk anything like it today )....so how would you know what stod in the original text?...as you know....transalations give not full right meaning.....

[Texas75023]

That is no problem at all, my friend. Only those who wish it were have no certain knowledge of it, bust must instead follow a conclusion from a conjecture.

A little knownand easily forgotten nomad who claimed to receive revelations from God while in a cave proclaimed OVER and OVER again, that the Torah and Bible were confirmed by his message, and there was NO DISTINCTION between the previous scriptures and his message.

[ujjalmazumder]

he was talking about the Torah and the Bible wich was revealed to profet moses pbuh and Jesus pbuh, the original one. Not this one you have today. Anyway, if you use Muhammed's pbuh saying as a proof, then you must belive that there is no God but allah, as the quran says so and there is no distinction betwen them and the bible.

[Texas75023]

ujjalma, I am aware of this rationalization within Mohammedism, my friend. It allows you to try and 'SAY' you believe the previous scriptures, but actually NOT BELIEVE anything that they say.

But in reality, the Torah and Bible are preserved in EXACTLY the Way God has designed and intended them to be preserved.

If you desire to hold onto your rationalization, PRODUCE YOUR PROOF, my friend. Produce AN ORIGINAL BIBLE, or PRODUCE REFERENCES TO IT from external sources. U will find U cannot.

[ujjalmazumder]

you have still not answered my question. Where in the bible do you find the concept of trinity?

[Texas75023]

ujjal, I answered your question, my friend. God the Father is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testament. God the Son, or Yeshua is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testament. God the Holy Spirit is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testament.

The Truth of God's 3-part nature is clear and clearly presented, my friend. It is not presented in a single simple declarative sentence. But that does not invalidate the concept. The Word of God does not declare Gravity either, does it?

[ujjalmazumder]

texas75023, why do you think of God as a trinity?....nowhere in the bible can you find anything about trinity!

[Texas75023]

ujjalmazumder, greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The persons of the Trinity are revealed by the Prophets throughout the Old Testament, and clarified more fully in the New Testament. The Bible is one reference to the members of the Trinity after another. But only those who wish to see the Truth, my friend, will open their eyes and see what the Lord has said through His Prophets.

Jesus said 'I AM THE SON OF GOD'. And the Jewish leaders KNEW what this meant.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the 2nd comment you removed was

'And the translation also says that WE MAD OR WE TOOK which means GOD didnt make this COVENANT as you claim it to be. Where did God mention prior to the NT that Jesus will establish a new Covenant by dying on the Cross ?'

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the first comment you removed was

'Then when I used the word Covenant for the same verse 5:14 why did you say... "So to try and dodge the claim of a 'Covenant' you must now change the text of the Quran to 'solemn pledge'? '

But it is not really making sense, is it, so is that why you removed it?

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the 'WE' in 'WE MADE' is your Allah speaking. Your ALLAH is claiming HE MADE A COVENANT with Christians.

Elsewhere, the Quran declares 'Our Allah is YOUR Allah', meaning your Quran attempts to claim that the Allah who Mhmd claimed to speak for was the SAME God who Spoke from the Clouds and declared Jesus was His Son.

The God of the Christians, my friend, established 1 and ONLY 1 Covenant with 'THOSE who call themselves Christians'.

This is the claim of 5.14, the Covenant GOD MADE.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, you do not have to be afraid and keep hiding your comments.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, I am glad you are not afraid.

I think your English is good, and I am happy to patiently work through any language issue that may exist.

I believe I have the correct reading, my friend. Let us look at just one translation for the moment. 'And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant,

Here, the speaker is 'Allah', and 'Allah' is saying 'WE, ALLAH' mad a Covenant with THOSE who call themselves Christians.

The ONLY Covenant Christians have, is as I've said.

[kharuri]

No am not afraid, I am repeatedly making the same mistake of posting the comment and then reading it for verification. When i found i typed wrong i deleted it.

[kharuri]

Here you have redifined the words. WE here is not ALLAH rather it is CHRISTIANS and that's the reason why many have translated the word MEESAQ in this verse as SOLEMN PLEDGE.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, I just posted a response, but it is not displaying when I refresh the page.

Let's look at Pickthal: And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant,

The portion in QUOTES is the limit of the text used to describe WHO the speaker is speaking about. The speaker is saying they (the speaker) made a covenant. With who, we might ask?

With those who say 'Lo we are Christians'.

You see, my friend, there IS NO Christian method like the 'Shahadah'.

[Texas75023]

Kharuri(2), becoming a Christian is not a matter of making a solemn pledge, my friend.

In actuality, one becomes a Christian with a form of declaration and a request. The Bible says that 'if you believe with your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Son of God and God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. So the declaration is more of an ADMISSION to the facts.

And the request is of the form asking Jesus and the Holy Spirit to come and live in your heart as a guest.

[Texas75023]

Kharuri(3) but within Christianity, my friend, there is no 'solemn pledge' per se, no oath of certain acts and committments, or promises which by implication commit one to acts to EARN their salvation.

The salvation that God has offered through Jesus Christ is RECEIVED by an act of FAITH, because otherwise, men would boast and brag in THEIR pride of THEIR greatness of having EARNED their place in Heaven.

This is why 'solemn pledge' does not make much sense, but Covenant does.

[kharuri]

I clearly understand now why you have said ...

"So to try and dodge the claim of a 'Covenant' you must now change the text of the Quran to 'solemn pledge'?

Before I was confused with this statement of yours. Now I understand the reason that you are not ready to accept the translated word SOLEMN PLEDGE instead you accept the word COVENANT, is because of your belief. Now my reply to that same statement is that I didnt change that Quranic text rather I quoted you the translation of Dr. Asad.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, I accept the word 'Covenant' for several reasons. the first being that the TRANSLATORS who know the Quran AND know English have chosen in many cases to translate the Arabic word that way.

I am confident, their knowledge of English and the Quran and their desire to be accurate and truthful makes them translate as honestly as possible.

second, as I explained, being a Christian, i am qualified to SAY what Christians believe, and have believed, because I have studied the faith.

[Texas75023]

so, kharuri, to summarize, usage of 'Solemn Pledge' creates logical inconsistencies that do not mesh with reality. Because there is no 'solemn pledge' that Christians are required to make or say inorder to become Christians.

Covenant is the only term that is logically consistent, and this creates the irrefutable conradiction, because the ONLY COVENANT Christians have EVER had with God was established bu the death of Jesus on the Cross, my friend.

[Texas75023]

Kharuri, in my study of the Quran, I have attempted to be honest and even-handed, choosing several versions of the Quran, including the 'Yusuf Ali' translation, which is endorsed by Saudi Arabia.

Even 'The Noble Qur'an in the English Language' states ' And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, ' meaning a covenant was established between God and Christians.

And still the situation remains, there is ONLY ONE Covenant known in Human History, my friend.

[kharuri]

Thirdly, where in God's teaching prior to the NT mentioned that God will establish a new Covenant with Jesus (PBUH)s death or that he was coming to die for our sins or for the salvation of humanity. If it is not mentioned then you are not on the covenant of God.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, Jesus Himself taught the following, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.' Luke 22.20 The Old Testament prophet, Jeremiah wrote

31.31 'The time is coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.'

This is the fulfillment of the promise God gave to Abraham that through Abraham ALL Nations would be blessed. All men may now enter into Covenant with God by the Covenant of Jesus Death.

[Texas75023]

kharuri(2) the Prophet Isaiah wrote in the Old Testament,

Isaiah 53: 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The Prophets have revealed the sacrifice made for the sins OF US ALL, brother. Think about what Prophet Isaiah said.

[kharuri]

All I can tell you is what I understand from verse 33:7 where the Covenant of God made with Jesus (PBUH) is shown as similar to the Covenant made with other prophets.

AND LO! We did accept a solemn pledge from all the prophets" - from thee, [O Muhammad,] as well as from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary -: for We accepted a most weighty, solemn pledge from [all of] them, (33:7)

[Texas75023]

kharuri, Sura 5.14 does NOT say 'And with Jesus I made a Covenant'. So, please go read Sura 5.14 one more time.

'With THOSE who CALL THEMSELVES Christians'. This clearly identifies those who FOLLOWED Jesus, and NOT Jesus Himself, because Jesus NEVER called Himself a 'Christian', did he?

In fact,the term Christian was hurled at the followers of Jesus after He was Crucified, Resurrected and then Ascended into Heaven. So Sura 5.14 CANNOT be referring to a pledge by Jesus.

[Texas75023]

kharuri(2) because Sura 5.14 continues claiming these same people with the Covenant 'forgot half of it'.

So to think this refers to Jesus means that Jesus, who you are saying took a most solemn pledge, and forgot half of it.

No, kharuri, the Covenant referred to in Sura 5.14 can only speak of the ONE and ONLY Covenant that Christians have ever made with the Living God of Abraham. There is simply NO OTHER Covenant which Christians have made with God.

[kharuri]

So if 5:14 Quran speaks of a Covenant which the Christians have forgotten, then how canyou claim that it is the same NT Covenant which the Christians have NOT forgotten ?

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the Quran CLAIMS Christians have forgotten HALF of their Covenant. But that is only a false claim, my friend, and it has no meaning or value, because the Quran demonstrates that it does not even GRASP what the Covenant originally was.

That is where the fundamental contradiction in the Quran is so glaring and problematic for it, my friend.

[kharuri]

"Quran demonstrates that it does not even GRASP what the Covenant originally was"

Through all my previous comments i was trying to show you the differences between this Covenant and the NT Covenant that you are talking about in order to prove to you that 5:14 Quran is not talking about the NT Covenant at all.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, if Sura 5.14 is NOT talking about the NT Covenant, then it is creating a reference to a completely fictitious and imaginary thing, my friend, a PURE fantasy with no meaning or relevance.

It therefore follows that the claims of the Quran, to speak to the 'those who call themselves Christians' is a complete ruse and means nothing to ANYONE living today who might use the word 'Christian' as a label.

But the Quran cannot have it both ways. There IS ONLY ONE Covenant, my friend.

[kharuri]

First difference ... "The Quran CLAIMS Christians have forgotten HALF of their Covenant. But that is only a false claim"

Second difference .... "5.14 can only speak of the one and only Covenant that CHRISTIANS HAVE EVER MADE "

Thirdly, ..."Quran demonstrates that it does not even GRASP what the Covenant originally was"

All the above are your statements. Still you want to stick to your claim that the Covenant of 5:14 Quran refers to NT Covenant itself. Well, can you prove it in anyway ?

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the proof is an examination of the attempted claims of the Quran, my friend.

What are the core claims of Mohammed? 1) 'MY Allah is YOUR Allah'. 2) I CONFIRM your scriptures. 3) I CONFIRM your scriptures, THEREFORE Follow ME NOW and reject your scriptures.

Mohammed's CLAIM of 5.14 is part of Mhmds argument to 'confirm' the People of the Book, specifically the Christians who follow Jesus, the Son of God, should now follow him, instead of Jesus.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, it is a simple matter, my friend. The IS ONLY ONE Covenant or relationship, between God and Christians. One. ALONE. Like you imagine God to be.

If the Quran speaks of a Covenant, the NT Covenant MUST be it, or else the Quran speaks of nothing more than spider webs and fantasy, my friend.

The Quran attempts to make USE OF the Covenant, borrowing credentials from it for its argument, but DID NOT REALIZE that the invocation of the Covenant contradicted other conjectures in the Quran.

[kharuri]

"If the Quran speaks of a Covenant, the NT Covenant MUST be it"

But what makes you so sure that Quran is speaking of the NT Covenant itself in 5:14 ? My claim is that it is not speaking of a Covenant rather is speaking of a Solemn Pledge and I've proved it. And I've also shown FOUR differences between this PLEDGE and NT Covenant. But still you refuse to accept it by saying ..

'Or else Quran speaks of nothing more than spider webs and fantasy'

[Texas75023]

kharuri, BECAUSE, my friend 5.14 speaks VERY SPECIFICALLY of WHO it is referring to.

THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS.

This cannot refer to Jews. It cannot refer to Mohammedans. It cannot refer to Atheists. It cannot refer to ANY GROUP except who it says.

5.14 speaks of 'THOSE who CALL THEMSELVES Christians'. Therefore, my friend, the COVENANT it mentions immediately AFTER that context is established, is the Covenant by 'THOSE who CALL THEMSELVES Christians'.

[kharuri]

"JESUS said on the night before He was crucified spoke of His Blood being SHED to be poured out for His New Covenant"

I know that 5:14 speaks very specifically of CHRISTIANS & It cannot refer to any other group. But was any of Jesus follower referred to as a CHRISTIAN not just before the night of crucifixion but throughout his lifetime ? When did the word Christ & Christian come into being ?

[Texas75023]

kharuri, that is an interesting attempt at an argument, my friend, but it simply does not withstand examination.

When Sura 5.14 speaks of 'those who call themselves Christians', it can ONLY be speaking of those who believe Jesus is the Son of God. This means it is the group of people which began as the 11 Disciples (12 minus Judas).

It is irrelevant, my friend, that the Actual WORD 'Christian' did not occur until it was later hurled as an insult. The GROUP and the COVENANT are the same.

[kharuri]

You are like a Frog in a well who thinks that the well itself is the complete world. You are not ready to jump out of the well to see the whole world. I mean you make a claim about Quran and when a Muslim tries to clarify your misunderstanding you dont want to come out of your Programmed-Mind-Set. You are doing it with 5.14 and youve done the same thing twice earlier viz. 3.55 and 2.136. Let Allah guide you to the truth. Ameen

[Texas75023]

kharuri, you think I am the frog in the well. But my friend, honestly you are the frog, and the well is the claim the Quran is perfect and without contradiction.

I have shown you, over and over again, that there is ONLY ONE COVENANT that 'Those who call themselves Christians' even know about. And THEY are the ones WHO ARE IN THE COVENANT. THEY would know.

But the well you are in PREVENTS you from accepting logic or reason. Instead you must imagine fantasy to excuse the Qurans contradictions.

[kharuri]

"Sura 5.14 can only speak of the ONE and ONLY Covenant that Christians have ever made with the Living God of Abraham. There is simply NO OTHER Covenant which Christians have made with God. "

Well, you agree that Christian's made this Covenant with GOD and not the reverse.

Or was it a typing error just as I was repeating the other day.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, again you change what the Quran says, my friend. The author of the QURAN claims THEY made the Covenant with the Christians.

Why is it so hard for you to accept what the Quran ACTUALLY SAYS, my friend? It is your Holy Book. You should respect the words it says, EVEN when they contradict each other.

[kharuri]

Again I did NOT change the text. For a moment I thought that you agreed with Quran that when it said Christians made this Covenant. And what makes you think that I dont respect it ?

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the Quran says that there is a Covenant between God and Christians. If you have been taught that a Covenant is a 1-sided or unilateral agreement, then you have been taught a definition that is inconsistent with the true meaning of the word.

A Covenant is BETWEEN two parties, and BOTH sides of the Covenant make the agreement. A 1-sided commitment is not rightly called a 'Covenant'.

Either the word translated Covenant means Covenant or it does not.

[kharuri]

"A 1-sided commitment is not rightly called a 'Covenant'"

Thats the reason why from the beginning i preferred the word SOLEMN PLEDGE over COVENANT.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, I understand you would prefer to use the term 'solemn pledge'. However, as I have explained, there is no 'pledge' in becoming a Christian that mirrors saying the Shahadah to join Mohammedism.

[kharuri]

But Verse 5:14 does not say that it is required to accept a Solemn Pledge in order to become Christians. And hence it is not talking about the Christian Shahadah

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the point is, THERE IS NO solemn pledge that Christians EVER make. Mohammed has IMAGINED a fantasy and presented it as words from your allah.

This is the point of this video, which you should watch again, my friend. The Quran declares 'with THOSE who call themselves Christians, WE DID MAKE A COVENANT'.

This is a definitive declaration by the author of the Quran. Mohammed SAID it in an attempt to ACKNOWLEDGE and CONFIRM that Christians HAVE A RELATIONSHIP with Almighty God.

[kharuri]

"If the Quran speaks of a Covenant, the NT Covenant must be it, or else the Quran speaks of nothing more than spider webs and fantasy. There is no solemn pledge that Christians ever make. Mohammed has imagined a fantasy & presented it as words from your Allah."

Firstly, 5:14 speaks of a fantasy then the Christians of our Prophets (PBUH) time were supposed to be the first to raise this issue. But do you know any Christian in the history who have called this verse as a fantasy ?

Secondly ....

[Texas75023]

kharuri, that is an interesting argument. And I think the ANSWER to the argument is that Christians do not and did not argue endlessly with fools. They simply rejected Mhmd as a false prophet and none of them who knew Jesus in their hearts would have been deceived by the conjectures and claims.

THIS is why Mhmds message changed from 'me too a prophet' and 'My allah is your allah', to 'do not take Jews or Christians as friends'. He grew bitter from the rejection by Christians.

[kharuri]

Secondly, if Quran was an IMAGINED FANTASY then my friend zillions of people throughout 1400 years wouldnt have embraced Islam after reading Quran. Rather the born Muslims shouldve realized it to be a fantasy and have left Islam for some other religion after reading it. You will not be able to show me more than 10 Muslims after counting with your fingers, who were well versed with Quran and have left Islam.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, that is false logic. The truth of Mhmds message is NOT determined by how many people follow it.

You need only look, and you will find 10 in less than 10 minuites. I can name 2 right now without looking. Waleed Shoebat, a former palestinian Terrorist Bomber, and the Son of the leader of Hamas who rejected Islam and became Christian only this past year.

No my friend, it is the threat of death to prevents many from looking and leaving Islam. But still many MILLIONS do each year.

[kharuri]

But still I did not claim it is a one party agreement or one sided commitment. Because from the word AKHAZNA meaning WE TOOK, Allah, as a second party has involved himself in this Covenant and accepted the Pledge made by Christians. But what I emphasized was that this pledge/covenant wasnt initiated by God. But your NT Covenant is initiated by God and that makes it different.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, but that is a complete error in understanding, my friend. GOD is the AUTHOR and INITIATOR of the Covenant between God and those who call themselves Christians.

Before Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, there WAS NO SUCH GROUP, my friend. It is ONLY AFTER Jesus was Crucified and Resurrected from the Dead, that the Disciples went forth and taught the Good News of the sacrifice for our sins by Jesus death on the Cross.

THIS was the MAKING of the Covenant by Jesus, my friend.

[kharuri]

"Before Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, there WAS NO SUCH GROUP"

When there was no such group called Christians before crucifixion (and even Quran testifies it by referring the Disciples as Muslims), then it means that this Covenant mentioned in 5:14 Quran was NOT made during the lifetime of Jesus (PBUH).

While you have tried to prove that Jesus taught about NT Covenant to his Disciples in Luke 22:20 and also in 31.31 'The time is coming,....

So here is another difference.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, I think you are confused, my friend. JESUS said on the night before He was crucified spoke of His Blood being SHED to be poured out for His New Covenant.

So the NT Covenant was ESTABLISHED by the END of the lifetime of Jesus. JUST as a Last Will and Testament has NO EFFECT while the Testator LIVES. But WHEN the testator DIES, the Last Will and Testament GOES INTO EFFECT and has POWER and AUTHORITY.

This is the NT Covenant Jesus established by HIS DEATH. There is ONLY ONE Covenant.

[kharuri]

"The author of the QURAN claims THEY made the Covenant with the Christians"

I found only Pickhtall's translation saying 'We (Allah) MADE the Covenant' while Arabic word AKHAZNA = WE TOOK. Many says 'We took their Covenant'. WE here refers to Allah and THEIR Covenant refers to Covenant made by Chrisitians. And you agreed with it when you said ...

"The Covenant referred to in 5.14 can only speak of the one and only Covenant that CHRISTIANS HAVE EVER MADE with the Living God of Abraham"

[Texas75023]

kharuri, my statement 'the one and only Covenant Christians have ever made' INCLUDES or is DEPENDENT upon MY DEFINITION that a Covenant is between 2 parties, and that BOTH, Christians AND GOD made commitments in this Covenant relationship.

GOD'S commitment to this Covenant is described by Jesus, who committed to shed His Blood, and die on the Cross, for the forgiveness of the sins of THOSE WHO PARTAKE of the Covenant.

THIS is the only Covenant THAT EXISTS between God and Christians, my friend.

[kharuri]

The Arabic words used is as follows AKHAZNA MEESAQAHUM

1) If the words are WE MADE as per Pickthall & Shakir then the Arabic word should've been AMILNA or SAWWAIYNA. While the word AKHAZNA means WE TOOK. But I dont know why have they translated as WE MADE.

2) The word MEESAQ = Covenant & HUM in the end means THEIR'S. While anything related to Allah has never been referred to as THEIRS rather it is referred to as HIS in the whole Quran. The word THEIR'S clearly indicates PEOPLE'S Covenant.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the subtleties of the word used in the Quran and however many meanings that word might have, should not be the issue, my friend.

In Sura 5.14, the author of the Quran claims that your Allah has a Covenant with Christians. If you study the Word of God regarding Covenants, you will see that GOD makes them, and they are between 2 parties.

I have not found any other examples where a Covenant is ONLY a promise or pledge by one person, without the OTHER party ALSO making some commitment.

[kharuri]

So you are only interested in the Covenant that God made with Christians and NOT with Jesus and other prophets (PBUT) while you keep claiming that you believe what all the prophets revealed. Very well, now read this.

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, ...

[Texas75023]

kharuri, you are getting distracted with other issues, my friend.

Let me refocus your thinking. Christians ONLY HAVE a COVENANT with God BECAUSE JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS.

But the Sura you quote is ANOTHER example that Mohammed KNEW NOTHING of Christian teaching. Mohammed thought the Trinity was God, Jesus and MARY, as he demonstrates in his imaginary conversation. There is no sect of Christianity which teaches MARY is a member of the Trinity.

[kharuri]

"Mohammed KNEW NOTHING of Christian teaching"

Still there are allegations that he authored Quran because of learning Christianity and Judaism.

"There is no sect of Christianity which teaches MARY is a member of the Trinity"

But there was a sect in arabia during his time. Now please dont tell me that even today Mother Mary is NOT being worshipped by some Christians.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, there are NO Christians, my friend, anywhere in the world who would stand before you and say the 'Trinity' is 'God the Father, God the Son and MARY'.

But it is interesting, my friend, that you think the Quran, which you believe is intended to be the ultimate guide into truth, would bother to record a specific message of correction directed at one small group of people in Arabia, 1400 years ago - when the message would never apply again to anyone else. That does not make sense.

[kharuri]

If so, then firstly, why did Jesus complain to God while being crucified : "Lord, why hast thou forsaken me? Mathew 27:46" as if he wasnt aware of this New covenant? If he was God then can a God be forsaken, first of all ?

Or secondly, was he talking to himself ?

[Texas75023]

kharuri, the Word of God states Hebrews 12.2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, WHO FOR THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM ENDURED THE CROSS, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Meaning that Jesus endured the Cross because He knew what the result would be.

Jesus 'emptied' Himself' of all deity while He was here as man, my friend. Since Jesus said the Father and I are ONE, there had previous never been any division between them.

[Texas75023]

kharuri(2) so the basic understanding is that in that moment when Jesus cried out, there must have been some separation or some awareness of distance from God.

I do not fully know how the human body and mind react during Crucifixion, but I am quite sure as a form of torture, it is to the death, and is intended to be painful and demoralizing.

Did God REALLY forsake Jesus, or did the pain cause Jesus to momentarily think God did? Certainly, Jesus later said 'Into you hands I commit my Spirit'.

[kharuri]

'Jesus later said 'Into you hands I commit my Spirit''

So that means the Spirit of Jesus, the God and the Holy Spirit are three different SPIRITS or three different personalities. Is there anytime when all these three have presented themselves as ONE personality ?

[kharuri]

"Did God REALLY forsake Jesus, or did the pain cause Jesus to momentarily think God did? Certainly"

The Allah that we believe is only a GOD and NOT a human. So no one can forsake him.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, you say you believe the Prophets.

Then I suggest you read Prophet Zechariah in chapter 12.10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: AND THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED,

God excedes your limited understanding of Him, my friend. And God has revealed MUCH through His prophets that you have neither studied, nor learned, nor respected. But I encourage you to do so, if you respect God.

[kharuri]

"there is NO Christian method like the 'Shahadah'. There is no 'solemn pledge' that Christians are required to make or say inorder to become Christians"

Verse 5:14 does not say that it is required to accept a Solemn Pledge in order to become Christians. And hence it is not talking about the Christian Shahadah. And it is neither talking about the Covenant of Jesus death on cross which you are claiming. But when you have made your mind to stick to the same Covenant, then its upto you.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, sura 5.14 speaks of the Covenant that God made with 'those who call themselves Christians'.

How is it, my friend, that you are not willing to see the text that is before your very eyes? Sura 5.14 speaks of, or refers to, or makes mention of a COVENANT.

Perhaps there is a cultural or religious difference that makes it hard for you to understand what a Covenant is. But I believe you know Abraham has a Covenant with God, right?

[kharuri]

and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116

I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things. 5:117 translation Pickthall

[kharuri]

So to try and dodge your claim you must now change the Quranic text 'SOLEMN PLEDGE' into 'COVENANT' ? The subterfuge of redefining words just doesn't hold water, my friend. You inherit the genes of your ancestors who have changed the Holy Bible.

[Texas75023]

kharuri, greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

You may read many English Translations of the Quran, my friend. MANY say 'Covenant'.

Muhsin Khan- We took their covenant,

Yusuf Ali- We did take a covenant

Pickthal- We made a covenant,

Sahih International- We took their covenant;

There is no subterfuge, my friend, except the claim that I am changing ANY words in the Quran.

No, brother, the Quran is condemned by it's own words, EVEN as the Quran challenges.