The Six Degrees of Helter Skelter - Shorty Shea

[Gary1497]

That doesn't look like the original cave, it looks much smaller. In the famous pic there's loads of them in that cave, whereas the guy in the video here takes up a lot of the cave himself. I'd definitely be surprised if that's the real cave.

[james7167]

what do you expect it is america full of weirdos

[Nervejunktion]

I think whats almost as disturbing as the case that made this property famous is the people who comb the entire area with metal detectors so they can take whatever is left home with them probably to sell.

[lugger2010]

@ silvereagle2061 I LOVE SHARON TATE! She is to me what Marylin Monroe is/was to most other guys. That being said, sadly, one cannot go on any website without hving that infamous LAPD photo popping up because some sick fuck gets his/her rocks off on watching photos of violent death. Just because Im fascinated w/ the trial & what made the "family" tick, I DO NOT want to see Sharon Tate's death photos. So, why do you want to see Dorothy Stratten's? Are you some kind of necro-perv?

[1880TimeTraveler]

Very Interesting, When you described the gentleman remarking that Shorty's skull was never found, yet you know it was, was very familiar, I also research and visit sites of historical events, and have found that folks living in the midst of the location generally have very little knowledge of events but do get irritated when facts are pointed out to them that does not agree with local legend, so I got a little laugh at your conversation with the gentleman, very informative video. Thank you.

[GeorgeVreelandHill2]

Interesting video.

It shows how sick the Manson people were.

George Vreeland Hill

[karmalevel]

left coast? please tell me you are not a liberal lunatic!

[silvereagle2061]

Can you do as much research as possible on Dorothy Stratten? Find any crime scene photos?

[kfag101]

@silvereagle2061 I love dorothy stratten! I would not want to see any crime scene photos. remember her the way she was

[Ilovedthe70s76]

@silvereagle2061 There won't be Bogdonovich(?) he was a Producer and was in love with Stratten and Heffner etc., made sure of that.

[mrsmelzbad]

wonder what poor shorty did to piss them off? Poor old folks who owned the ranch where lucky Id say..........You gotta wonder how many bodies they buried out in the desert, near the barker ranch. Or across southern Cal.

[walliwalibus]

Manson, Manson, Manson....... LOL. Wow, how many individuals were involved. I lost count, yet I never heard of Manson's hands touching anyone. I agree he belongs incarcerated, but I don't agree on the procecutor (we know his name), among others, making millions off of speculation. BoogalaBoogala himai chu, did that make you wanna kill someone? Obviously, everyone looks for a way out. Lets pick the guy who already spent his life in jail, better yet, lets make millions of it.

[hollywoodpsychic]

@walliwalibus - You never heard of manson laying a hand on anyone? How about Bernard Crowe (aka Lotsapoppa) who Manson shot in the stomach and left for dead? (Crowe survived and later testified against Manson.) Or Gary Hinman who reportedly lost his ear to a sword-wielding Manson? Yeah, the murders may have been executed by others under his orders, but don't kid yourself that Manson didn't get his hands dirty!

[walliwalibus]

@hollywoodpsychic Sure thang there Hollywoodpsychic. How much you making off of it?

[hollywoodpsychic]

@walliwalibus - Millions upon millions. I actually quit my job just so I could have more time to spend all the money I'm making off poor Charlie's life sentence! Bugliosi and I vacation together when we're not figuring out better ways to stick it to imprisoned cultists.

But what are you implying? If you think I'm making those cases up, do a quick search.

[walliwalibus]

@hollywoodpsychic I'll jump right on it, after i do the million other things i should be doing besides watching video's of crazed killers and people in prison. I really could care less. But if I told you to go kill someone, would you? And please don't use the lame old "he had us on drugs and was controlling our minds" bit. It's kinda worn out. Got me on the cutting of the guy, but was that what the trial was about, I don't believe it was. But I do think there are more people somewhere dead by CM

[kfag101]

how did you get on the property? I thought it was closed off

[wannawatchu66]

I clicked on the link in the description and got "Page not found."

[FRSFreeState]

The Manson Fantasy of Helter Skelter

[Joannec95]

I needed a copy of this program for my research paper.

[FrsBigeasy]

Helter Skelter was a Fantasy from Charlie Manson's warped mind

[kfag101]

have they found the location of the murder or was shorty killed there too?

[fyvespot]

According to Maury Terry in his book THE ULTIMATE EVIL Charles Manson, Shorty Shea and Abigail Folger were spotted at a seafood restaurant near the Golden Gate Bridge in 1967. Shorty Shea had to be murdered since he was a link that would show that the Helter Skelter motive was simply a secondary motive and that the murders at 10050 Cielo Drive was a drug-related hit that Manson most likely had his followers commit that camouflaged the power struggle in the drug scene at that time.

[storrs19]

Also the "suicide" of John Philip Haught (aka Zero) who was playing Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun. Of course there are many more deaths that could be claimed by the Manson family. Joel Dean Pugh in London, and James and Lauren who were found buried in the basement of a house where some members were staying.  Still an interesting story over 40 years later.

[jenzZ84]

so cool to actually be there. watching it i can imagine a werid vibe there or something

[bwild61]

Man, this is spooky! 

[sueishere25]

Poor Shorty. Those cowards!!

[poodtang1]

They got rid of him on orders of Manson after they got busted. Beleiving that Shorty had blabbed to the police.

[TheMagickScene]

If Patricia Krenwinkle and Leslie VanHouten are as sorry as they claim they are, why won't they come clean about who killed Hinman and Shea? Why won't they tell the Sheriff's Dept where the other bodies are, if there are other bodies? They are STILL about saving themselves...they are not about coming clean. There are suppose to be bodies out there from "Satanic" rituals.

[littleniyah]

@TheMagickScene They can't 'come clean' because it isn't true. Those stories are absurd fantasies told by a guy who calls himself The White Rabbit. He's an utter twat, who turned up at Spahn and was rejected as small fat ugly, later he said Squeaky and others tried to get him to do copycat crimes to get CM out. He didnt and then hid in fear of them 4 20 years, emerging, he put a Family X on his head with a ballpen. he made up stories of witnessing murders, Satanic stuff, snuff movies, shag Sadie

[Flerg3]

Who know a song written by Paul McCartney would be subject to such nonsense.

[chuckestarr]

@Flerg3 Isn't that the point of the Beatles. Nonsense rhymes for nonsense times

[breezeman199]

So who killed Shorty?

[kelillo]

is this documentary available to shipping to Spain?

[BrickLaneBetty]

Great work without being sensationalist

[TenacityEnt]

From "fiona1933":

Yes, indeed. It's never mentioned. Who killed Shorty? Watson always says, he is guilty of 7 murders, that's 5 Tate, 2 LaBianca. No Shorty. But Steven 'Clem' Grogan said Tex hit stabbed Shorty while yelling Clem to hit him with a wrench. Clem did and then Shorty went staggering down the slope, Bruce and Charlie arrived and then Tex and Clem finished it. Bruce gave one stab to the arm, poss after he was dead. So why doesn't Tex include it in his tally?

[TenacityEnt]

Fiona - Tex was convicted of the 7 Tate/Labianca murders and sentenced to die. He is lucky his sentence was later reduced to life. However, were he tried for another murder, I believe he could possibly face the death penalty again. Therefore, I doubt any of the convicted killers will ever cop to any other murders -- "Let sleeping dogs lie," etc.

[kfag101]

@TenacityEnt tex killed many more than he cops too!

[kfag101]

@TenacityEnt I want to take your tour!

[kfag101]

@TenacityEnt Tex is truely an evil man!

[wannawatchu66]

@kfag101 ...who claims now to be a born-again Christian.

[kfag101]

@wannawatchu66 that makes him more evil. pretending to be a man of God

[wannawatchu66]

@kfag101 Yeah, I know where you're coming from...I don't know one way or the other, I just saw a rare interview where he talked about his conversion and faith, etc.

[Bumblybee256]

@kfag101 I'd say it's exactly fitting. It only takes a skim through any holy book to see the killing god condones.

[TenacityEnt]

SORRY "fiona1933" -- I accidentally deleted your post. I'll re-post it.

[ShelterDogs]

How come nothing is ever said about the murder of Shorty Shea in Manson documentaries?

[gootenslog]

Good point. The tv movies rarely include more than a mention.

[TenacityEnt]

The Tate/LaBianca murders are more sensational. WE talk about it in The Six Degrees of Helter Skelter, though. ;)

[Andromeda1741]

Because his murder wasnt widely publicized like the others. Gary Hinman is never mentioned either

[HelterSkelterForum]

@ShelterDogs What sells more newspapers? Shorty Shea or Sharon Tate? There's your answer.

Would love to get my hands on a copy of Six Degrees Helter Skelter

[qasl1234]

If only those trees could talk

[xxxsweettartxxx]

I would love to go to all these places. The manson case is something that I have always had a lot of interest in. very cool and lucky.

[ultrakool]

it is wild that no one has developed it. if they can turn times sq/42st into a tourist trap, then why not "mansonland". rebuild it to '69 standards, charge admission, and all proceeds go to the victim's families. lol

[MiamiIndianTribe]

i found part of a car axle yesterday in the creek

[Millisscott]

Is there a baseball field where the ranch was? I went to LA and couldn't find the field or any flat area that appeared to be the spot where the ranch was.

[MiamiIndianTribe]

shoulda gotten ahold of me i would have shown you the whole ranch. You didnt go far enough.

[Millisscott]

Fuck! Thanks anyway man. I saw the LaBianca house and it took me three trips to find the Tate property because I didn't know it was on a private drive off Cielo. Went to Topanga Canyon too. I was carrying around the Nuell Emmons book the whole time and my girlfriend was getting jealous.

[MiamiIndianTribe]

i know where shorty was buried too all this is close to topanga cyn

[jerrywo8able]

The land is not owned by the church , its owned by the government.

[3reichdreaminSS]

Was there two days ago,and found a piece of the stables a little burnt from the fire ! fucking amazing stuff is still there!

[sueishere25]

Poor Shorty! Great video though.

[MacGrurry]

i mean, i sympathize, it must've been great to be part of some communal group that was like an older version of the scouts or camp whatever from all of our youths, you have fun, you BBQ you dance and listen to The Beatles and The Buffalo Springfield , there are easy girls around, all's fun, but the second they ask you to KILL SOMEONE, you get-The Fuck---OUT!

[stumptacular]

well from what i have read... Dennis and many others were taken by Charlies charisma and Dennis took Manson to Brian Wilsons house to record so you can imagine that if they knew him well enough to let him record at Brians home studio that they trusted him somewhat at first... I think Manson and what he did had more to do with Brian Wilsons Paranoia and mental illness than is written about but you can tell in interviews that Brian hates to talk about it

[MikeEder]

Brian was still relatively ok when he met Manson. Did it come back to haunt him later? Quite possibly. It got to Dennis for sure and many have said it was the first thing that really sent him on the wrong road.

[TenacityEnt]

Sorry - I accidentally deleted the post that this was a response too.

To answer the original (now deleted) question: the film contains an images and video of Dennis Wilson and the Beach Boys and gives all of the details of his connections to the Manson Family. And a DVD extra visits the marina where Dennis drowned. A link to purchase the DVD is in the video description here in the upper-right corner. :)

[jenzZ84]

u seem to have the same obsession as me. get in touch. oh anything in ted bundy

[sueishere25]

It's nice property!

[qasl1234]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing! I thought I read somewhere that Shorty got killed because he caught on to Manson quick and was talking too much.

[snooch1975]

that cave looks differnt from the pics??

[ahcapella]

Yeah, it does. Smaller now. I'm assuming that the "floor" of the cave got filled in with mud from rainfalls that occurred over the many years since 1969. 3:03

[jayhop1]

an apology i owe you-- decades you've studied this case could have been a slip of the tongue or misnomer--but hopefully you're just not another you-tube clown----it's quite possible if you further the trek---those involved may come to finish your story--keep pushing

[ahcapella]

No, Tenacity is no clown--unlike me! I bought the DVD and definitely wasn't disappointed. He's done his research. It's interesting to see what all these locations look like today.

[jayhop1]

cool beans --but did i hear you say --i've studied this for decades---please clariify--for it could have been my -miss hear -

[TenacityEnt]

CHECK OUT THE VIDEO DESCRIPTION HERE for information on ordering the DVD - it's out now!

[poodtang1]

Is it just me or is this kinda overkill. One hit to the head with an axe would have probably done it.

[fejkram]

Jeez poor ol' shorty copped it..

[suchalovelyplace]

AWESOME! Thank you very much.  Love the photos of Spahn Ranch too. Excellent, excellent, excellent and that great Scott Michaels delivery too. He has a terrific voice. Great Spahn Ranch and Santa Susana Pass area footage.

[Lonelygerbil15]

Wow! Beautiful footage! Where are the legendary cave & creek located relative to where the ranch was?--Looking at it in Google Earth, I don't see anything behind the ranch area that looks like it could be a creek--I presume it's hidden by trees. Maybe someone has coordinates for the cave? Unfortunately it's difficult to know where these things are/were just using Google Earth and Tex Watson's map! I'm surprised no one has created 3D computer imaging of the area, complete with buildings. Haha!

[TenacityEnt]

Thank you! At around :19 into the video, when Scott walks out into the field and starts talking, there are trees behind him. You are correct - those trees are down in a gully. The hillside behind Scott is easy to spot if you visit the site. If you go there, walk across the field toward the trees, drop down into the gully, and follow the creek there to the right. The cave is only a few hundred feet away. If you go the other way, you'll get cut off by a bridge that crosses the creek.

[ahcapella]

This is awesome! I've always tried to visualize the Spahn Ranch area from still photos (past and present), but seeing it in video is so much more compelling! So...those trees that we've always seen—that kinda form a semicircle in back (south) of where the buildings were—ARE where the creek/gully is where Scott was walking, right? I'm confused by what I see in Tex Watson's map:

w ww. charliemanson. com/places/spahn-map. htm (delete the spaces)

What Tex's map calls "dry creek bed" (cont'd)

[ahcapella]

*appears* to be the creek/gully where those trees are, where Scott walked to get to the cave; it's the right shape. So...is/was there another creek *south* of the gully? I assume that it couldn't be *too* much further south—you'd run into the mountain pretty quickly, right?

???

[bedpan25]

yeah, it's not as big an area as you might guess. from the edge of santa susana pass to the base of the mountain is only about 570 feet. i'd love to visit CA and walk around there & shoot some video.

[sugarspicennotsonice]

Why was shorty murdered?

[TenacityEnt]

There are several possible motives for the murder of Shorty Shea:

1) Charlie didn't like African Americans and Shorty's wife was black, 2) Spahn Ranch had just been raided by police, and Charlie suspected that Shorty had ratted them out to the police and/or he suspected that Shorty knew that they were the ones behind the Tate/LaBianca murders, which at that time were completely unsolved - and the Manson Family members weren't even suspects yet. Squeaky Fromme allegedly played a roll.

[derek7521]

@TenacityEnt I'll bet it was all of the above motives

[fejkram]

Why was Shorty murdered you ask.

Charlie didn't like the shoes he had on that day or something like that since when did Manson need a reason..

[ElmoLewiss]

shorty got killed cuz he was a snitch

[desertskies]

Except for some rack-focusing segments that could have been left out and still tell the story, it came across as a well done video.

Kudos to the editor.

Good job, all.

[nrthdude1]

Watson, Davis and Grogan were convicted for Shea's murder.

Grogan's brothers were reported to be employed in California Law enforcement.

Grogan had a deal worked out for him whereby he gave the body's location and he was allowed to go free.

The authorities were afraid if Shorty wasn't really killed (as they were able to convict without a corpse) and he reappeared years later alive, they would be disgraced.

Grogan is the only Manson Family murderer to ever be released.

[cynmcb]

Spahn probably didn't care. He was too busy getting 'serviced' by Squeaky.

[BluegrassRules1973]

Didn't the old man George Spahn live there in a trailor? I wonder what he thought of all that crazy stuff going on there at his place?

[BluegrassRules1973]

From what I can make out the item that the man said he couldn't figure out what it was is a timing chain cover to a car engine! I may be completely wrong but that is what it looks like to me?

[TenacityEnt]

Thank you, Bluegrass! We had no idea... :)

[vancleaveterry]

Could it be the top of an old gas can? Big hole for pouring, small hole for air?

[TenacityEnt]

That's very possible...

[jamesmcgove]

Has anyone ever admited to delivering the fatal stabs to Shorty?Clem,Watson,Bruce Davis? Beausoliel was in prison at the time right?We assume Manson didnt do his own dirty work!?

[TenacityEnt]

Not sure. I know that Clem gave the authorities directions to find Shorty's body, which I believe is part of what led to Clem being paroled in 1985. I assume that by giving them directions to the body's location, Clem was also admitting that he participated. Yes, Beausoleil was in prison at the time of Shorty's murder. Bobby was arrested weeks earlier, before the Tate/LaBianca murders.

[iluvbrew0069]

when will the dvd be released and where can i buy it?

[TenacityEnt]

The DVD will be out this summer and available on Amazon. It will also be available through Scott's site at FindADeath.

[iluvbrew0069]

Thank you 4 your time!

[xeroxbarber]

Ive seen you on Shocking Hollywood Murders and clips from 6 Degrees and you seem well-researched.I was wondering if the 6 Degrees discusses events in the case that were not covered/falsely portrayed in Helter Skelter such as the Hinman murder being about bad mescaline Beausoleil got from Hinman and sold to the Straight Satans.Or that the Tate/LaBianca murders were an attempt to clear Beausoleil of the Hinman murder by creating copycat murders.

[TenacityEnt]

We follow the course of events based off of numerous sources, not just Helter Skelter, but the books written by various Manson Family members, the murderers themselves, and the family/friends of the victims. There are a lot of different versions of what happened and no one can really claim that they know the truth, beyond the killers themselves.

[lightyearmodels]

Do you guys visit Barker Ranch in Death Valley where they actually captured him?

[TenacityEnt]

Yes. It will be on the DVD. We filmed all over Barker Ranch and inside the house, including the bathroom where Manson was arrested.

[poodtang1]

I would never wan't to visit this place gives off tooo many bad vibes. The same reason I would never visit Auschwitz. They're both black holes of negative energy.

[bobot420]

So I live like a mile from here, and I wanted to find that Rock cave. How far is it from where the middle of the ranch is???

[TenacityEnt]

As you leave the road and head into the field, there is a gully area with trees (you can see this behind Scott in the video around 20 seconds in). If you drop down into that area, you land in a creek, and the cave is along that creek. It isn't far at all.

[bobot420]

Thanks so much!! I plan to do it this weekend, in the early morning. I also plan to go to Barker ranch soon, I need a 4x4, and a few people with the same desire. Have you ever been there???? I wanna go before theres nothing there.

[moist182]

ive always been fascinated with history and places ,id like to see this place to.

[bobot420]

Well I have explored it thoroughly, if you or ANYONE want a tour of spahn ranch, I will happilly show anyone. just contact me.

[surferguyall]

I believe the dig out at Barker ranch was too close to the run down house Manson and the family was using. Maybe they should have searched at a distance from the house that would be the same as the distance from Spahn ranch to where Shorty's body was found. I am thinking that the Manson family would have used the same distance and similar land structure from home to dispose of bodies out at Barker Ranch as they did at Spahn ranch.

[Raveonkids]

That's neat! Would rock to walk around and see what can be found!

[StyxHexenhammer]

FREE MANSON!

[yhshvh10]

you're right

[poodtang1]

The place is spooky, gives off bad vibes.

[wannawatchu66]

@poodtang1 Just the term "chop wounds" gives me the creeps.

[poodtang1]

@wannawatchu66

The whole Manson thing gives me the creeps. And to this day 40+ years later Squeeky still looks up to Manson.

I mean how fucked up is that. From what i heard about Squeeky she was a wack job before, during and after Manson.

Didn't think it was possible to clean someone's mind and fill it with shit, but Manson found a way.

[wannawatchu66]

@poodtang1 Couldn't agree more...you hit that nail squarely on the head.

[poodtang1]

Noboy's buit anything there for a reason,it's tainted.

[clintrock]

I live in Canada, and I ordered your other dvd and I loved it. Can't wait for the new one!! keep it up!

[borderhopper]

Very fascinating video....the footage you've compiled is great. I live only ,iles from this site and have been out there a number of times. Your video puts it all into perspective. Thanks!

[borderhopper]

Very fascinating video....the footage you've compiled is great. I live only ,iles from this site and have been out there a number of times. Your video puts it all into perspective. Thanks!

[Borbnert]

Great job! 5 stars.

[EpcotFan]

Woot! I can't wait to see it!!

Scott, you rock, keep up the great job!!

[moviedan]

really awesome. can't wait to see it.

[amybethm]

I look forward to seeing the finished product! Great work, you guys!

[mrspatrickcampbell]

Does Scott have sizemeat?

[themaltesebippy]

Fasinating stuff Scott!

[texmire]

Brilliant!!!!

[dsduchin]

Scott, you rock so hard you make Steve Tyler blush.

[merlin23]

These little trailers are so darn watchable.

[Cettie5360]

Really excellent!

[astaynax]

I can dig it.

[kochie320]

Scott, you are the best at what you do! KUDDOS on your videos and your web site find-a-death. Keep up the good work!!

[Roberts231]

MIKMA WAS HERE

[mcefa]

scott u have 2 come to dublin!

[mibalz]

must have been pretty cool walking on holy ground