@followgood LOL... you're kidding me right. Jesus predicted in (guess where) THE BIBLE that the tribulation would come during his apostles lifetimes. Guess what?? It didn't happen.
So Jesus was a liar.
I'd suggest you OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND ACTUALLY READ IT.
Yes drinking coffee, driving and hitting someone is the same as God's plan. You are so out to lunch, give it up....and Oh, God does have a plan and your even included in it, how great.
One also needs to ask themself why a God who supposedly was against human sacrifices, would predestine one to occur, and (as most Christians believe), even BECAME this human sacrifice.
How is one made more responsible because in some hypothetical possible world they would have inexplicably chosen otherwise? In the real world we could not have done otherwise because once a choice is made we cannot go back in time to undo it. We are slaves to the God of chance.
Awesome video. I've just recently took a class where they taught the "If This Then That" mathematical concepts. This is think they should teach every year in school (instead of a specialized blip in Liberal Arts Math in college) so that folks can understand how 'critical thinking' works & that it is a skill that CAN be developed.
ok.....1Thes. 1:14-15 doesn't say anything about Jews killing Jesus or the wrath of God or anything. In fact, that chapter doesn't even have 16 verses. Secondly, Jesus laid his own life down...no one could have killed him without his allowance, and nobody "had" to kill Jesus...As Christ laid his life down, his enemies chose to persecute him, fulfilling the prophecies because God(aka Jesus) already knew what they would do. See John 10:15-17.
You know, I can thank my youthful years of church catechism classes that made me figure this out all by myself. God blinds the non believer from seeing the truth - then he punishes them for it in an eternity of torture. Nice.
I think many of the christian myths read better if God is not all powerful. This would make the killers in the story solely responsible & would drive home the moral of the story to not judge others.
Making God all-powerful & all-knowing & all-loving just made the character into a logical absurdity. Just ruins the character. Similar to Superman who is way too powerful to be interesting in a dramatic narrative.
I vote we rewrite the bible & make Jesus an ex-Roman soldier jaded by a corrupt system.
@rubberbaby00 actually the thing is not that god is not all powerful, but that men has the ...gift...of being able to make his own decisions. i´m christian and actually...i think we ALL know god killed jesus off xD there are actually christians who don´t even blame judas. oh but i guess when we are talking about catholics (i´m protestant) than the dogma of the "holy church" probably would want them to believe that judas and/or other people are to blame...
Well actually I'm a Batmanian. But I can understand why Supermanians blame Doomsday for killing Superman in Vol.2 #75. But honestly, wasn't Lex Luthor ultimately responsible for unleashing the beast? Silly Supermanians, can't they understand the we Batmanians know the REAL TRUTH.
@rubberbaby00 you´re absolutely right! luthor has always been such a meanie, of course it was his fault! :) and i like batman xD sad that superman got killed of though. glad i didn´t read it :)
Frankly looking at the comments on this page I could write an entire book of replies but the thing is even if i had a really good point or could justify every thing you said you still would'nt be open to or respect the beliefs of christianity.I truly wonder how many of you have bothered reading the bible (in context)to back up your own claims- that it doesn't make sense. Try reading the bible with an open mind or doing an alpha course that formally discusses these things.god bless.
1) All-knowing God is responsible for killing Jesus.
2) Jesus was God.
3) So, Jesus killed Jesus.
Jesus/God is an angst ridden teenager who killed himself in order to make everyone else feel incredibly guilty about perfect and misunderstood he was/is.
(And how does an immortal God 'die' anyway. When Jesus died, he didn't really die. As far as I know, Immortal Gods don't die.)
You poor brother :( (sad smile). This worlds about Jesus death were wroten after his death!! They didnt wrote nothing before his death becouse they were bliend! And there is tousends of week thing and lies in Bible!
@ProfMTH Jesus was the son of God, not an avatar of God. Before the 3rd Century many Christian sects believed Jesus was simply a human prophet like Abraham, Moses, Mohammed etc. Emperor Constantine created the official version of events. If Jesus was God then he would be sitting on the right hand of himself in heaven. You fuckwit!
@38dragoon38 That's the philosophical problem with the Trinity. Many Christians believe that Jesus was "fully divine," and they hold that he was a completely different person. In my book that counts as polytheism, but they claim and must claim to be monotheists. Consider how poorly their position stands with the first statement of the famous 10 commandments: "I am the Lord your God... am jealous... no other gods before me." In the meantime, don't insult ProfMTH
@koreanwutard If is Jesus god why is he kiled Why is buried, is a group of Jews may be stronger than your god, if he sacrificed for the sins of believers, then the time should all enter into heaven without any pain. why his father did not save him, why not give some guidance. For me Christianity is a mess.
If the persecutors and killers of Jesus committed these deeds as part of goD's plan, I'd have thought Christians (and goD) would consider them men of honor and valor---as heroes for carrying out the will of god and helping to fulfill his master plan.
Why not give thanks and praises to Pilate and his henchmen without whom this miraculous salvation would not have taken place---how about it Christians?
@socksumi Exactly. It reminds me of the line from the Catholic Easter hymn called The Exultet, which says, in pertinent part, "O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"
@socksumi And in extending you argument a little bit further, then surely JUDAS IS THE SAVIOUR OF MANKIND? Judas's behaviour was pre-determined by God - he had no choice. Without Judas the whole Jesus-as-a-scapegoat-for-mankind plot could not have happened. Judas has to suffer in hell for eternity - which surely makes Jesus's temporary suffering seem like a walk in the park. JUDAS is vilified forever whereas Jesus is the great hero. Judas was a simple man who supposedly erred whereas Jesus...
@socksumi ...had none other than the creator of the universe looking out for him. I've always felt that, if nothing else, Christianity is supposed to be about the under-dog. And nobody likes an all powerful show-off who takes all the credit all of the time, do they? So perhaps Christians should consider giving credit where it is due and start hanging nooses on their walls instead of crucifixes. I'm the last person to start rumours about peoples parentage but perhaps Judas's mother was a virgin?
@LegionIscariot And if the New Testament is to be believed, Judas didn't have a choice in the matter. He was just doing what Yahweh had predestined him to do.
It was Gods will that Jesus will die. To save us from sins, it didn't work for all. It just happened, what is ur problem. But I feel sorry for u , I see it din't work for u.
@ILOVEGOD773 Why did Jesus have to die? Why didn't God just say, "I forgive your sins"? Why did he have to try to find some cosmic loophole in his own law?
SIDE NOTE: On the other video, I left you a link to a video to explain what science actually says on the matter we were discussing. At this moment, I don't care if you accept it or not, but I think you should at least know what you're fighting against.
Y did God have to forgive sins just like that?? Ur sinning right now, cuz u don't believe in him. If ur kids did something wrong that would u not want to punish them or help them by realizing whats wrong and what is right??
@ILOVEGOD773 "Y did God have to forgive sins just like that?"
Isn't that what you just said he did by sacrificing a version of himself to himself? Why require a convoluted sacrifice in order to absolve sins when, surely, he could simply absolve the sin?
"If ur kids did something wrong that would u not want to punish them or help them...??"
Interesting point you bring up, because, in return, I ask you: Would you punish your great-grandchildren for what your kid did?
"Isn't that what you just said he did by sacrificing a version of himself to himself?" I don't know what are u talking about?. As for the other one, I know what are u talking about, The original sin. U know that not all Christians believe that, And I'm one of them. And U didn't answer MY question. And did u found that video?
@ILOVEGOD773 "I don't know what are u talking about?"
Jesus (God) sacrificed himself to God (himself) in order to create a loophole in a law that he (God) himself made. Why was the sacrifice necessary?
"U know that not all Christians believe that"
I doubt any Christian on Earth believes the same thing as any other. Kinda makes you wonder why there's so much confusion from a book of so-called "truth," you know?
And, yeah, found the video a loooooong time ago, man. Check the posts.
See there is allot of christian religions, because Christians disagree on what is right and wrong. Bible says different thing because, the people who wrote it, wrong long time pass when Jesus died, so there memory was different. And I don't care if u believe it or no, But I just explained no U!! As for for the videos I will see them later this week and comment u back. HAPPY EASTERN SUNDAY!!!
@ILOVEGOD773 "Bible says different thing because, the people who wrote it, wrong long time pass when Jesus died, so there memory was different."
But don't you see how that puts the validity of the Bible into question? If you can choose what to accept and what not to accept, it implies that people are inventing their own version of the Bible...which means it's NOT the word of God...which also shows you can't trust the book.
Its the peoples fault that they made up there own versions of the Bible, and how does that say "you can't trust the book". Just like people made up evolution.
@ILOVEGOD773 "Its the peoples fault that they made up there own versions of the Bible"
Yes, you're right. That's exactly what I'm saying. People are following a Bible that has been EDITED throughout the centuries, has been proven WRONG in many areas of science, CONTRADICTS itself...people make up their own versions and still claim it to be the truth. You don't see the problem with that?
"Just like people made up evolution. "
Evolution is demonstrably true. It's been proven...and WITNESSED.
@MagicActor1987 God made Man in his own image and at that time there was no need for him to punish man.The reason why man got separated from God is because he sinned.And God is Holy,man cannot come to God if ghe is a sinner.We separated ourselves from him due to our sins.The only way to come to God was the penalty for the sins and hence Jesus became the mediator.It had to be Gods blood ,thats why Jesus has Gods blood,the only one perfect God-Man,through who we get salvation.Dont let satn blind u
@shy52002 But you seem to be missing my point. You said:
"The only way to come to God was the penalty for the sins and hence Jesus became the mediator.It had to be Gods blood..."
You're claiming it had to be that way. I'm asking WHY. If God wanted to forgive people's sins...why couldn't he just forgive people's sins? Why did he have to use a loophole in HIS OWN LAW to do something he wanted to do? Why did there have to be bloodshed?
@MagicActor1987 What do you think God is?He is holy .merciful but also Just.He cannot be favorable.Thats why in the past God allowed the sacrifice of lambs,but that wasnt perfect justice.It was an incomplete act and had to be done again and again and people were livivng under the lw.So therefore,perfect justice had to be done,and hence He had to Bear our sins.Thats why we believe it was God himself ,who was in form of Jesus.That is trhe only way,because he is a just God!
@shy52002 I'm sorry, but I can't believe ANYONE could say that the Christian God is "just."
Deut. 22:28-29 -- If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Or how about Exodus 21? Or Numbers 15:32-36? If this is "just" in the eyes of God, he's the biggest asshole ever. Morals my ass.
@shy52002 Also, how is killing his own son (who is also himself) "justice" in any sense? Wouldn't justice be doing that to someone who actually did something wrong?
And WHY is that the only way? Because he wanted bloodshed. For humans being humans, flawed in all the ways HE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT before making us. Because he expected Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If he exists, he's worthy of rebuke, not praise.
@shy52002 Let me understand this. God put his own son up for sacrifice?
He was arrested and tried. (which he expected) He was Crucified. (which he expected) He was buried but rose again from the dead and sits in heaven on the right hand of god. (which he also expected)
Have I got this right?
If so, apart from a bit of pain, Where's the Sacrifice?
Some atheists have sacrificed more for their fellow man.
Is it that Atheists are far more moral than god, as they don't have the get-out clause.
@TheSmithDorian But if the death was followed by a resurrection, which, if he was the son of god, he knew would happen, then even his death isn't any form of atonement.
Maybe he was crucified. But, if you believe the bible, it was only for 6 hrs. Crucifixion in those days usually last days, not hours.
There are devotees in the world today who volunteer to have themsleves crucified for almost as long with no long term ill effects.
In a nutshell, there was no sacrifice, therefore, no atonement.
Somebody once said to me that it was the human Jesus that died on the cross that atoned for for sin and the spirit Jesus that was resurrected. But if that's the case then why are Christians so insistent on a bodily resurrection having taken place. What would a triune spiritual Godhead want a physical human body for in heaven anyway?
The whole sacrifice / death / atonement / resurrection concept is fundamentally flawed
Indeed - I'm not entirely convinced that Jesus actually existed at all, even as just a human being.
For that matter we don't have any accounts outside the Bible of anybody that we know to have been a real historical person claiming to either have seen, met or spoken to Mary, Paul or any of the disciples.
@TheSmithDorian Actually, I'm prepared to admit there may just have been a charismatic preacher called Jesus around at that time, (Jesus was a common name) but he was not special, just an ordinary man.
There were over 40 writers that we know of, who were active during his supposed lifetime, but not one of them mentions him, even in passing.
All we know about Jesus comes solely from the bible itself and writings derived from the bible and they were all written by people who never even met him.
@TheSmithDorian I think Jesus was a real person because the story is that he was crucified by the Romans. For Jesus to be a sacrificial offering I assume he would have to be killed by Jews not pagans. I'm not basing this on Jewish Scripture, I just get the feeling God wouldn't have accepted an animal killed by a pagan. Therefore, if Jesus were made up, the storytellers would've just said he was stoned to death for blasphemy rather than try to tie in Jewish responsibility for a Roman crucifixion
It's certainly possible that Jesus was a real person that then gospels were based on - even if very loosely.But it's also possible that he was a complete fabrication. Outside of the Bible there is no evidence for him whatsoever. In itself this isn't all that surprising - he was only around for a short period in a remote region. What's harder to explain is why there is no evidence for Paul or the disciples.
Paul was supposedly preaching in Greece, Asia Minor and Rome for
.. 15 - 20 years. He met Kings and Roman officials and was the key figure in a number of early churches. He was even supposedly imprisoned & executed in Rome itself. Yet there is no trace of him outside the Bible. No records and no accounts from anybody that we know to have existed ever claiming to have seen or met him.
There's also the question of why Paul never met Jesus despite being a prominent Pharisee in Jersusalem at the time.
I think Paul (or rather the Paul in the stories in the Bible) was an amalgum / mixture of a few different individuals. His story just has so many holes in it it's almost impossible to take it at face value.
"Jesus had to be physically resurrected for it to have any meaning because otherwise he was just a ghost"
But it is this kind of non-physical Jesus that Paul supposedly saw on the Damascene Rd that caused him to believe in him.
" ..the storytellers would've just said he was stoned to death for blasphemy"
Seems there's clear and simple answer to this. [Pilate said]"Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death" (Jn 18:31)
But.. nothing is clear and simple in the Bible. John says the Jews weren't allowed to execute but according to Acts, the Sanhedrin and Paul killed loads of Jews in Jerusalem starting with Stephen.
@TheSmithDorian It was against ROMAN law to execute someone without the governor's permission. Jewish law prescribes the death penalty for many many crimes, including blasphemy.
Indeed. So the question is; Was the killing spree that S/Paul went on in Jerusalem sanctioned by Pilate? Unlikely - he wouldn't have cared about the fate of any particular Jew/Christian but he cared about stability, keeping order and maintaining Roman Authority. Delegating his power of execution to Jewish death squads wouldn't have helped and wasn't Pilate's style.
So if these killings actually took place it would have been without Roman permission.
@TheSmithDorian Pilate wasn't governor of Judea when Saul was persecuting Christians, but I think the governor would have allowed the Jews to execute people because not allowing it would have been akin to not letting them practice their religion. I don't really think Christians were being executed at that point anyway. Paul doesn't admit to killing anyone, and James, the leader, lived right in Jerusalem. He didn't have to hide out in the wilderness or anything.
There's debate about whether Pilate was Prefect or Procurate, but let's say that he was Rome's governing authority in Judea. He was in that position until late 36 / early 37AD. Paul's conversion was supposed to have happened in 35/36AD so his presecutions would have been prior to this and within Pilate's period in charge.
" not allowing [executions by Jews] would have been akin to not letting them practice their religion" Their religion stated that Judea belonged to them .
..but I'm sure Rome didn't plan to give it back for the sake of religious tolerance. Rome might delegate authority to subserviant local kings / rulers but not to religious groups / factions in places where Rome had a military presence.
"I don't think Christians were being executed at that point anyway" - I agree.
"Paul doesn't admit to killing anyone".True but he claims to have imprisoned them and voted for their execution.
But Paul talks about casting his vote against particular Christians in a council. This implies that the most senior Jewish Priests were party to coordinated and systematic acts of serious disobedience against Roman authority.Again this is unlikely - their positions and their lives depended on keeping on Pilates good side. They wouldn't have risked that by endorsing unsanctioned public executions.
So we have one of many claims made by Paul in the Bible that lacks credibility.
@Darwinsman "if the death was followed by a resurrection, which, if he was the son of god, he knew would happen, then even his death isn't any form of atonement."
@KayBeeEee1983 1/3. The idea of Jesus dying for our sins is just a sick extension of the ancient Jewish custom of scapegoating. In any case, even If Jesus was real, there was no real sacrifice on the cross.
Jesus was arrested and tried. (Which he knew would happen)
He was crucified. (Which he knew would happen)
He then rose from the dead and sits for eternity in the comfort of Heaven. (Which he also knew would happen)
@KayBeeEee1983 2/3. Even the crucifixion only lasted 3 – 6hrs when most crucifixions lasted days, not hours.
I’m sorry, but apart from a short period of pain, there was no real sacrifice.
Many atheists have been tortured and have given their lives to help their fellow men, with no thought of resurrection or reward in heaven. Doesn’t that make their sacrifice greater than Jesus?
Maybe they should change the passage in John 3:16 to make it more accurate. Cont’d.
“For God so needed the adulation of the world, that he LOANED his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should be fooled into thinking that they would not perish, but have everlasting life, so they would be guilt tricked into worshipping him forever.”
If the only way to absolve “sins” was for Jesus to sacrifice his life, then this would mean that, for Christians, their “sins” have not been absolved and they all still have them.
"The resurrection supposedly proves that he was indeed the messiah and the son of god"
For a start; the Messiah wasn't supposed to be the Son of God or God himself. He was supposed to be a man blessed by God - like David or Moses. He was supposed to be a king that would restore the kingdom of Israel and usher in an era of peace.
Ask yourself how Jesus dying and being resurrected has the slightest thing to do with what the messiah was supposed to have been or done.
Does the resurrection prove that Jesus was the Son of God?
There is nothing in the OT that even mentions the existence of the Son of God and consequently no prophecy concerning his resurrection. Such an event cannot therefore be scriptural proof of anything.
If the Son of God really was an eternal spirit, as people claim, the idea of him being physically resurrected and ascending to heaven in a human body makes no sense at all. What use would a human body be in heaven?
"How so? Other than (1) because the idea that god needs blood is insane, and (2) because resurrection is impossible?"
i) Why does God need anything (blood or any other sacrifice) to forgive mankind. He could just do it if he wanted to.
ii) Why does God hate and regret creating mankind so much that he kills all the world's population except Noah and family at one point then at another loves us all so much that he sacrifices his only son so that we can live forever?
iii) God had already given the Israelites specific instructions concerning the law and the appropriate sacrifices that needed to be made to atone for their sins. Why have them do this for 1500 yrs if it all meant nothing because his son (that he told nobody about) hadn't yet come to earth to be killed?
v) In the OT how could Enoch and Elijah have ascended to heaven if they had not been "saved" by Jesus' coming?
vi) A sacrifice is supposed to entail the sinner sacrificing something of value (a lamb, goat etc) and offering it to God as recognition that you have sinned and to ask for forgiveness. In Jesus case it's God sacrificing something he values and the sinners are neither recognizing their sins nor asking for forgiveness. It makes no sense.
vii) God's sacrifice isn't a sacrifice if he resurrects Jesus. I'd happily give all my salary to the church if I got it back 3 days later.
Jesus loves the jews, Jesus is pissed off you killed him...all of you Humans.
I dont know why he took it out on Japan 1st but....Jesus is american and all you dumb americans were buying nothing but Japanese cars. They were not buying American cars so... He destroyed them...again. They are used to it and thats what they get for not buying american cars. You going to buy american or...deal with the omnipotent american God? God is gangsta, you wanna play? Your move..choose wisely.
@boblajoe1 Yes it was a joke,,sort of. American soldeirs are killing in the name of Jesus.
Jesus returns to do what? Bring forth the apocolpyse! He wants to set the credit back to 0 (Fight Club) He also wants to see Sarah Palin burn at the stake (liar liar pants on fire). He also wants to see all religious tradition removed for a new non traditional form of worship (Stigmata the movie).
And He want'ts you to buy a ford and support our troops!! Yee haw!!!
Yes I know that God sent His Son to the cross see Isa 53:10. libertarian free will does NOT exist. But you are still morally responsible for your sins. They acted with their CREATURELY FREEDOM to follow their sinful nature. They meant if for evil. God meant it for the salvation of man. So once again you show you have NO CLUE. I suggest that you look up "compatibilism"
@ProfMTH RE: Isaiah 53 ... WOW you sure are full of yourself. You really think that the church just got this one wrong for 2000 years. You're really not interested in learning, all you want is to do is spread your hatred and propaganda against God... I had enough of your propaganda.
@ProfMTH you think that men a lot smarter than you and the once hostile Apostle Paul a JEWISH Pharisee just got every thing wrong. you really are full of yourself.
@rbmath You're kind of a one-trick pony with the "men a lot smarter than you" stuff and the carrying on about Paul. I've made my argument. Refute it if you can. Just telling me other Christians have agreed with you establishes NOTHING.
@ProfMTH lets see now. the Church taught this for 2000. the apostle Paul who first hated Christians never seen your false reasoning. if you truly think you came up with something new to defeat Christianity than you really have hatred problems.
@LordProfBear Great question. People couldn't be held responsible in the same way as when volition is a factor. But society could still justify, e.g., imprisoning criminals; the imprisonment would, I think, be primarily about protecting society from those who do things that threaten it. In the Bible story I discuss here, it seems impossible to make a case for the actors' culpability since they were merely acting in accordance with what an omnipotent, omniscient god predestined & foreknew.
@ProfMTH I ask only because the paper you cite is a response to Frankfurt's arguments in favour of Compatibilism. I suppose the argument a Christian might put forward would be that whilst the event (Jesus' death) had to happen, individual actors could have chosen not to take part - it's just that SOMEONE would have executed Jesus. Thus the individuals chose to be the ones who "did the deed", as it were, and are thus culpable.
@LordProfBear "I suppose the argument a Christian might put forward would be that whilst the event (Jesus' death) had to happen, individual actors could have chosen not to take part - it's just that SOMEONE would have executed Jesus."
Right. And many *do* make that argument. However, I don't believe the argument available to them in light of what Acts 4:27-28 says about Pilate, Herod, the Jews, et alia being "gathered together" to do "whatever [God's] hand and purpose predestined to occur."
@ProfMTH Hmm. Well, it says they were gathered together in 4:17. Then in 4:18 the thing related to "hand and council" is the death of Jesus, rather than the gathering. It strikes me that there is no necessary reason to say God specifically gathered those men, rather than that they had gathered there.
@LordProfBear "It strikes me that there is no necessary reason to say God specifically gathered those men...."
Oh, I strongly disagree. The gathering doesn't seem to make sense if the passage doesn't mean to convey that it was God bringing together the specific actors for the plan he had predestined them to fulfill. They "were gathered" "to do."
@ProfMTH Well the prior passage (4:26 - sorry for the previous reference error) also says "gathered together" but says that it was "against the Lord". It strikes me that "gathered" here means simply that they themselves were together. The repetition in the next passage would seem to be related to the prior usage. If the first usage is used to show people gathering themselves against the Lord, why would we count the second usage as being gathered BY the Lord?
@LordProfBear "The Lord" they were gathered against was Jesus, not the Christian god in heaven. I don't know how to explain it better than I have: it seems to me the gathering makes no sense in context if the author doesn't mean to convey that God gathered certain people together to execute his predetermined and predestined plan. If that's not what the author means to say, one is left with the odd impression that God was hoping some people would show up to get the job done.
@LordProfBear Serves me right for not looking at the passage again before I commented. Pardon my not looking back. In any case, I still think it doesn't make sense if God is not the one doing the gathering for the reasons I've already stated.
@ProfMTH Well I usually agree with you. You could make a ridiculously stupid video that I could rip into and we could go from there. Otherwise it might be a while.
Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus.
@THERIGHTWAYTOISLAM "Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus."
Conclusion: God made those people do sins. So why the fuck does God send those men to hell for his own sins? Doesn't make sense, does it? Doesn't make sense just like ever other religion. That's why I'm an atheist.
You are making the faulty assumption that man has to have autonomous freedom to be held accountable by God. You are assuming that man is not free unless their is a chance that he could have chosen otherwise. God does NOT play dice with the universe. There is NO such thing as chance ultimately and YES God does hold man responsible for his actions. NO contradiction either biblically or philosophically here.
Actually, I'm not assuming anything. I've presented an argument. If you can refute that argument, then you should do so. Merely saying that your god has predetermined everything doesn't refute the argument, it merely restates the problem that the argument addresses.
@ProfMTH "Actually, I'm not assuming anything. I've presented an argument."
You are assuming a will is not free unless it is autonomous. THAT is a pretty big assumption sir. Looking at your other comments shows you have also assumed coerced compliance of a rape victim to be the same as one freely doing that which he has been predetermined to do.The victim is well aware of their being coerced. The person who acts freely (NOT autonomously) is not acting under a sense of compulsion or coercion.
@ProfMTH "That's X & Not X. Again, you need an argument, not the mere assertions you've been posting."
Mitch, you have not proved the point at issue. You assert that it's X and Not X. This must be demonstrated and proved. I am preparing a video response to you on this subject.
Because of mankind's Evil, instead of breaking his promise by destroying earth once again through a great flood, he warns Israel 100's of years prior, that he would send a servant/Lamb to atone for the sins of many.
The Jews were without excuse. (Isaiah53:5,10 & Zechariah12:10)
Pontius Pilate was without excuse.(Mathew27:19, John18:37)
@CBALLEN So you agree that it was God's predetermined plan at work, that everything went according to the way God predestined it, that it was God who killed Jesus, and that none of the human actors were culpable?
@CBALLEN "God consigned us ALL to sin so that He could glorify Himself,that's it."
That doesn't answer the question I asked you. Here it is again. Do you agree that Jesus' execution was God's predetermined plan at work, that everything went according to the way God predestined it to go, that it was God who killed Jesus, and that none of the human actors were culpable?
TheTomtompiper u have a little miss understanding, when Jesus says "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHAN?" "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" he is not denying God, he is referencing to Psalms 22. If u read into the account of Jesus' crucifixion and several of the verses in the Psalm you will find that description in the Psalm, is the experience in which Jesus is going through.
Hey, you forgot to put IS. 53:10 into the video. "It pleased God to bruise him..."
tcamp007 6 days ago
God is real, but when your in "darkness" you have a hard time seeing the"Light"
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood Get a lightbulb. Or a flashlight. Also, fuck god.
cfc19900 1 week ago
@cfc19900 Anger eats you up inside, doesn't it?
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood Inside what? I have no soul.
cfc19900 1 week ago
@cfc19900 That was a very wrong thing to say, I would repent if I were you
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood 'Souls' are not real. And repenting is for pussies.
cfc19900 1 week ago
@cfc19900 You will be one of the first repenting when the tribulation begins, and that will be very soon, see you in heaven brother
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood Nah. Are you gonna speak in tongues next?
cfc19900 1 week ago
@cfc19900 No I can not speak in tongues, but my brother can, he's more connected than I am, but I will try, lol. take care.
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood You're brother is a psycho.
atheistram 1 week ago
@followgood LOL... you're kidding me right. Jesus predicted in (guess where) THE BIBLE that the tribulation would come during his apostles lifetimes. Guess what?? It didn't happen.
So Jesus was a liar.
I'd suggest you OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND ACTUALLY READ IT.
atheistram 1 week ago
@atheistram Your wrong...."this generation" read it and pay attention, He meant a specific generation...ours!!
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood Why should someone repent to a genocidal motherfucker??
atheistram 1 week ago
@atheistram You will see
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood Evidence for your claim??
atheistram 1 week ago
@atheistram I have all the evidence I need, thanks to God
followgood 1 week ago
@followgood No, you failed to understand my comment (typical of fundamentalists). I meant evidence that would convert me.
atheistram 1 week ago
Yes drinking coffee, driving and hitting someone is the same as God's plan. You are so out to lunch, give it up....and Oh, God does have a plan and your even included in it, how great.
followgood 1 week ago
One also needs to ask themself why a God who supposedly was against human sacrifices, would predestine one to occur, and (as most Christians believe), even BECAME this human sacrifice.
truthbknwn 1 month ago
How is one made more responsible because in some hypothetical possible world they would have inexplicably chosen otherwise? In the real world we could not have done otherwise because once a choice is made we cannot go back in time to undo it. We are slaves to the God of chance.
BeholdTheCross 1 month ago
Awesome video. I've just recently took a class where they taught the "If This Then That" mathematical concepts. This is think they should teach every year in school (instead of a specialized blip in Liberal Arts Math in college) so that folks can understand how 'critical thinking' works & that it is a skill that CAN be developed.
FreeformTao 2 months ago
@FreeformTao Thanks very much.
ProfMTH 2 months ago
@ProfMTH
@ProfMTH
jesusneverexisted com
MrWaterlionmonkey 2 weeks ago
ok.....1Thes. 1:14-15 doesn't say anything about Jews killing Jesus or the wrath of God or anything. In fact, that chapter doesn't even have 16 verses. Secondly, Jesus laid his own life down...no one could have killed him without his allowance, and nobody "had" to kill Jesus...As Christ laid his life down, his enemies chose to persecute him, fulfilling the prophecies because God(aka Jesus) already knew what they would do. See John 10:15-17.
itsmisterbojangles 2 months ago
@itsmisterbojangles "1Thes. 1:14-15 doesn't say anything about Jews killing Jesus or the wrath of God or anything"
It was a typo, which is why I put an annotation into the video noting that it's 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15.
ProfMTH 2 months ago
You know, I can thank my youthful years of church catechism classes that made me figure this out all by myself. God blinds the non believer from seeing the truth - then he punishes them for it in an eternity of torture. Nice.
audiotrax2000 4 months ago
no. i killed jesus.
AKTIONxSKINS 4 months ago
I think many of the christian myths read better if God is not all powerful. This would make the killers in the story solely responsible & would drive home the moral of the story to not judge others.
Making God all-powerful & all-knowing & all-loving just made the character into a logical absurdity. Just ruins the character. Similar to Superman who is way too powerful to be interesting in a dramatic narrative.
I vote we rewrite the bible & make Jesus an ex-Roman soldier jaded by a corrupt system.
rubberbaby00 5 months ago
@rubberbaby00 actually the thing is not that god is not all powerful, but that men has the ...gift...of being able to make his own decisions. i´m christian and actually...i think we ALL know god killed jesus off xD there are actually christians who don´t even blame judas. oh but i guess when we are talking about catholics (i´m protestant) than the dogma of the "holy church" probably would want them to believe that judas and/or other people are to blame...
Lilithly 5 months ago
@Lilithly "their decisions" not "his" xD sorry for that :)
Lilithly 5 months ago
@Lilithly
Well actually I'm a Batmanian. But I can understand why Supermanians blame Doomsday for killing Superman in Vol.2 #75. But honestly, wasn't Lex Luthor ultimately responsible for unleashing the beast? Silly Supermanians, can't they understand the we Batmanians know the REAL TRUTH.
rubberbaby00 5 months ago
@rubberbaby00 you´re absolutely right! luthor has always been such a meanie, of course it was his fault! :) and i like batman xD sad that superman got killed of though. glad i didn´t read it :)
Lilithly 5 months ago
As a christian if i had to save the world from eternal hell i would murder my son to. I don't blame god for doing it.
TROLOLED
echoes1234567891 5 months ago
God didn't rape Mary it was the "Holy Ghost/Jesus" Jesus is the devil.
MrHopenFaith 6 months ago
Frankly looking at the comments on this page I could write an entire book of replies but the thing is even if i had a really good point or could justify every thing you said you still would'nt be open to or respect the beliefs of christianity.I truly wonder how many of you have bothered reading the bible (in context)to back up your own claims- that it doesn't make sense. Try reading the bible with an open mind or doing an alpha course that formally discusses these things.god bless.
l0vinrandoms 6 months ago
To a video like this, the calvinists would always say... Who art thou, O man, to question god?!?!
shitthrowingmonkey1 6 months ago
@shitthrowingmonkey1 Yep. That's usually what I get from Calvinists. Some try more, but it usually fails to get very far.
ProfMTH 6 months ago
God is Fake, DEAL WITH IT!
God raped Mary at 12 years old, he is a Pedophile like islam's prophet. Bible is retarded who can belive that crap
ScientologySucksAss 6 months ago
1) All-knowing God is responsible for killing Jesus.
2) Jesus was God.
3) So, Jesus killed Jesus.
Jesus/God is an angst ridden teenager who killed himself in order to make everyone else feel incredibly guilty about perfect and misunderstood he was/is.
(And how does an immortal God 'die' anyway. When Jesus died, he didn't really die. As far as I know, Immortal Gods don't die.)
USERNAMEfieldempty 7 months ago
@chrissiemasangkay What?
ProfMTH 7 months ago
@ProfMTH leave her alone. shes drunk..
princerexor 6 months ago
You poor brother :( (sad smile). This worlds about Jesus death were wroten after his death!! They didnt wrote nothing before his death becouse they were bliend! And there is tousends of week thing and lies in Bible!
Okjar1 9 months ago
For Christians how did peoples before Jesus go to heavens??
truly NO SOLID EVIDENCE
Religiousspirit 9 months ago
@koreanwutard prove it!
DavidNeff2011 9 months ago
God is Jesus you dork...
koreanwutard 9 months ago
@koreanwutard "God is Jesus you dork."
Your obvious theological sophistication and lofty manner of expression are too fancy for this channel.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH Jesus was the son of God, not an avatar of God. Before the 3rd Century many Christian sects believed Jesus was simply a human prophet like Abraham, Moses, Mohammed etc. Emperor Constantine created the official version of events. If Jesus was God then he would be sitting on the right hand of himself in heaven. You fuckwit!
38dragoon38 8 months ago
@38dragoon38 That's the philosophical problem with the Trinity. Many Christians believe that Jesus was "fully divine," and they hold that he was a completely different person. In my book that counts as polytheism, but they claim and must claim to be monotheists. Consider how poorly their position stands with the first statement of the famous 10 commandments: "I am the Lord your God... am jealous... no other gods before me." In the meantime, don't insult ProfMTH
markviman 7 months ago
@koreanwutard If is Jesus god why is he kiled Why is buried, is a group of Jews may be stronger than your god, if he sacrificed for the sins of believers, then the time should all enter into heaven without any pain. why his father did not save him, why not give some guidance. For me Christianity is a mess.
GexaCity 7 months ago
Yeah that 'All Knowing" thing is a bitch.
seeker6789 10 months ago
@seeker6789 That it is.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
If the persecutors and killers of Jesus committed these deeds as part of goD's plan, I'd have thought Christians (and goD) would consider them men of honor and valor---as heroes for carrying out the will of god and helping to fulfill his master plan.
Why not give thanks and praises to Pilate and his henchmen without whom this miraculous salvation would not have taken place---how about it Christians?
socksumi 10 months ago
@socksumi Exactly. It reminds me of the line from the Catholic Easter hymn called The Exultet, which says, in pertinent part, "O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@socksumi And in extending you argument a little bit further, then surely JUDAS IS THE SAVIOUR OF MANKIND? Judas's behaviour was pre-determined by God - he had no choice. Without Judas the whole Jesus-as-a-scapegoat-for-mankind plot could not have happened. Judas has to suffer in hell for eternity - which surely makes Jesus's temporary suffering seem like a walk in the park. JUDAS is vilified forever whereas Jesus is the great hero. Judas was a simple man who supposedly erred whereas Jesus...
38dragoon38 8 months ago
@socksumi ...had none other than the creator of the universe looking out for him. I've always felt that, if nothing else, Christianity is supposed to be about the under-dog. And nobody likes an all powerful show-off who takes all the credit all of the time, do they? So perhaps Christians should consider giving credit where it is due and start hanging nooses on their walls instead of crucifixes. I'm the last person to start rumours about peoples parentage but perhaps Judas's mother was a virgin?
38dragoon38 8 months ago
Christians are always hating on Judas Iscariot, why is that? he was only following YHWH's plan.
LegionIscariot 10 months ago
@LegionIscariot And if the New Testament is to be believed, Judas didn't have a choice in the matter. He was just doing what Yahweh had predestined him to do.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH You rock
LegionIscariot 10 months ago
@ProfMTH If Jesus died for humanities sins, why wouldn't christians thank those who carried out deicide for helping with humanities' atonement?
Reminds me of tom Paine saying Christianity is the reverse of what it pretends to be.
RomansPwnedJesus 10 months ago
It was Gods will that Jesus will die. To save us from sins, it didn't work for all. It just happened, what is ur problem. But I feel sorry for u , I see it din't work for u.
yay Christians!!
ILOVEGOD773 10 months ago
@ILOVEGOD773 Why did Jesus have to die? Why didn't God just say, "I forgive your sins"? Why did he have to try to find some cosmic loophole in his own law?
SIDE NOTE: On the other video, I left you a link to a video to explain what science actually says on the matter we were discussing. At this moment, I don't care if you accept it or not, but I think you should at least know what you're fighting against.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@MagicActor1987
Y did God have to forgive sins just like that?? Ur sinning right now, cuz u don't believe in him. If ur kids did something wrong that would u not want to punish them or help them by realizing whats wrong and what is right??
ILOVEGOD773 10 months ago
@ILOVEGOD773 "Y did God have to forgive sins just like that?"
Isn't that what you just said he did by sacrificing a version of himself to himself? Why require a convoluted sacrifice in order to absolve sins when, surely, he could simply absolve the sin?
"If ur kids did something wrong that would u not want to punish them or help them...??"
Interesting point you bring up, because, in return, I ask you: Would you punish your great-grandchildren for what your kid did?
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@MagicActor1987
"Isn't that what you just said he did by sacrificing a version of himself to himself?" I don't know what are u talking about?. As for the other one, I know what are u talking about, The original sin. U know that not all Christians believe that, And I'm one of them. And U didn't answer MY question. And did u found that video?
ILOVEGOD773 10 months ago
@ILOVEGOD773 "I don't know what are u talking about?"
Jesus (God) sacrificed himself to God (himself) in order to create a loophole in a law that he (God) himself made. Why was the sacrifice necessary?
"U know that not all Christians believe that"
I doubt any Christian on Earth believes the same thing as any other. Kinda makes you wonder why there's so much confusion from a book of so-called "truth," you know?
And, yeah, found the video a loooooong time ago, man. Check the posts.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@MagicActor1987
See there is allot of christian religions, because Christians disagree on what is right and wrong. Bible says different thing because, the people who wrote it, wrong long time pass when Jesus died, so there memory was different. And I don't care if u believe it or no, But I just explained no U!! As for for the videos I will see them later this week and comment u back. HAPPY EASTERN SUNDAY!!!
ILOVEGOD773 10 months ago
@ILOVEGOD773 "Bible says different thing because, the people who wrote it, wrong long time pass when Jesus died, so there memory was different."
But don't you see how that puts the validity of the Bible into question? If you can choose what to accept and what not to accept, it implies that people are inventing their own version of the Bible...which means it's NOT the word of God...which also shows you can't trust the book.
"But I just explained no U!! "
...I don't know what you mean by this.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@MagicActor1987
Its the peoples fault that they made up there own versions of the Bible, and how does that say "you can't trust the book". Just like people made up evolution.
ILOVEGOD773 10 months ago
@ILOVEGOD773 "Its the peoples fault that they made up there own versions of the Bible"
Yes, you're right. That's exactly what I'm saying. People are following a Bible that has been EDITED throughout the centuries, has been proven WRONG in many areas of science, CONTRADICTS itself...people make up their own versions and still claim it to be the truth. You don't see the problem with that?
"Just like people made up evolution. "
Evolution is demonstrably true. It's been proven...and WITNESSED.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@MagicActor1987 God made Man in his own image and at that time there was no need for him to punish man.The reason why man got separated from God is because he sinned.And God is Holy,man cannot come to God if ghe is a sinner.We separated ourselves from him due to our sins.The only way to come to God was the penalty for the sins and hence Jesus became the mediator.It had to be Gods blood ,thats why Jesus has Gods blood,the only one perfect God-Man,through who we get salvation.Dont let satn blind u
shy52002 10 months ago
@shy52002 But you seem to be missing my point. You said:
"The only way to come to God was the penalty for the sins and hence Jesus became the mediator.It had to be Gods blood..."
You're claiming it had to be that way. I'm asking WHY. If God wanted to forgive people's sins...why couldn't he just forgive people's sins? Why did he have to use a loophole in HIS OWN LAW to do something he wanted to do? Why did there have to be bloodshed?
Don't let religion blind you.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@MagicActor1987 What do you think God is?He is holy .merciful but also Just.He cannot be favorable.Thats why in the past God allowed the sacrifice of lambs,but that wasnt perfect justice.It was an incomplete act and had to be done again and again and people were livivng under the lw.So therefore,perfect justice had to be done,and hence He had to Bear our sins.Thats why we believe it was God himself ,who was in form of Jesus.That is trhe only way,because he is a just God!
shy52002 10 months ago
@shy52002 I'm sorry, but I can't believe ANYONE could say that the Christian God is "just."
Deut. 22:28-29 -- If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Or how about Exodus 21? Or Numbers 15:32-36? If this is "just" in the eyes of God, he's the biggest asshole ever. Morals my ass.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@shy52002 Also, how is killing his own son (who is also himself) "justice" in any sense? Wouldn't justice be doing that to someone who actually did something wrong?
And WHY is that the only way? Because he wanted bloodshed. For humans being humans, flawed in all the ways HE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT before making us. Because he expected Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If he exists, he's worthy of rebuke, not praise.
MagicActor1987 10 months ago
@shy52002 Funny how you completely ignore the passage about a man selling his daughter to her rapist.
1xrosexredx1 9 months ago
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Darwinsman 8 months ago
@shy52002 Let me understand this. God put his own son up for sacrifice?
He was arrested and tried. (which he expected) He was Crucified. (which he expected) He was buried but rose again from the dead and sits in heaven on the right hand of god. (which he also expected)
Have I got this right?
If so, apart from a bit of pain, Where's the Sacrifice?
Some atheists have sacrificed more for their fellow man.
Is it that Atheists are far more moral than god, as they don't have the get-out clause.
Darwinsman 8 months ago
@Darwinsman
Indeed - where is the sacrifice?
And what is the significance of the resurrection?
Paul says "... if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain"
Why? - if the point of Jesus coming to earth was to die to atone for man's sins then that is achieved by his death not his resurrection.
TheSmithDorian 3 months ago
@TheSmithDorian But if the death was followed by a resurrection, which, if he was the son of god, he knew would happen, then even his death isn't any form of atonement.
Maybe he was crucified. But, if you believe the bible, it was only for 6 hrs. Crucifixion in those days usually last days, not hours.
There are devotees in the world today who volunteer to have themsleves crucified for almost as long with no long term ill effects.
In a nutshell, there was no sacrifice, therefore, no atonement.
Darwinsman 3 months ago
@Darwinsman
Yeah - I don't get it either.
Somebody once said to me that it was the human Jesus that died on the cross that atoned for for sin and the spirit Jesus that was resurrected. But if that's the case then why are Christians so insistent on a bodily resurrection having taken place. What would a triune spiritual Godhead want a physical human body for in heaven anyway?
The whole sacrifice / death / atonement / resurrection concept is fundamentally flawed
TheSmithDorian 3 months ago
@TheSmithDorian There's one simple answer that solves all the questions.
It didn't happen. It's just a myth.
Darwinsman 3 months ago
@Darwinsman
Indeed - I'm not entirely convinced that Jesus actually existed at all, even as just a human being.
For that matter we don't have any accounts outside the Bible of anybody that we know to have been a real historical person claiming to either have seen, met or spoken to Mary, Paul or any of the disciples.
How far does the myth go?
TheSmithDorian 3 months ago
@TheSmithDorian Actually, I'm prepared to admit there may just have been a charismatic preacher called Jesus around at that time, (Jesus was a common name) but he was not special, just an ordinary man.
There were over 40 writers that we know of, who were active during his supposed lifetime, but not one of them mentions him, even in passing.
All we know about Jesus comes solely from the bible itself and writings derived from the bible and they were all written by people who never even met him.
Darwinsman 3 months ago
@TheSmithDorian I think Jesus was a real person because the story is that he was crucified by the Romans. For Jesus to be a sacrificial offering I assume he would have to be killed by Jews not pagans. I'm not basing this on Jewish Scripture, I just get the feeling God wouldn't have accepted an animal killed by a pagan. Therefore, if Jesus were made up, the storytellers would've just said he was stoned to death for blasphemy rather than try to tie in Jewish responsibility for a Roman crucifixion
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 1
It's certainly possible that Jesus was a real person that then gospels were based on - even if very loosely.But it's also possible that he was a complete fabrication. Outside of the Bible there is no evidence for him whatsoever. In itself this isn't all that surprising - he was only around for a short period in a remote region. What's harder to explain is why there is no evidence for Paul or the disciples.
Paul was supposedly preaching in Greece, Asia Minor and Rome for
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 2
.. 15 - 20 years. He met Kings and Roman officials and was the key figure in a number of early churches. He was even supposedly imprisoned & executed in Rome itself. Yet there is no trace of him outside the Bible. No records and no accounts from anybody that we know to have existed ever claiming to have seen or met him.
There's also the question of why Paul never met Jesus despite being a prominent Pharisee in Jersusalem at the time.
The whole story just doesn't ring true.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@TheSmithDorian Paul, if he existed, probably wasn't anything like the person he's portrayed as in the bible. Same with Jesus.
Jesus had to be physically resurrected for it to have any meaning because otherwise he was just a ghost, which wouldn't be that special.
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983
I think Paul (or rather the Paul in the stories in the Bible) was an amalgum / mixture of a few different individuals. His story just has so many holes in it it's almost impossible to take it at face value.
"Jesus had to be physically resurrected for it to have any meaning because otherwise he was just a ghost"
But it is this kind of non-physical Jesus that Paul supposedly saw on the Damascene Rd that caused him to believe in him.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983
" ..the storytellers would've just said he was stoned to death for blasphemy"
Seems there's clear and simple answer to this. [Pilate said]"Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death" (Jn 18:31)
But.. nothing is clear and simple in the Bible. John says the Jews weren't allowed to execute but according to Acts, the Sanhedrin and Paul killed loads of Jews in Jerusalem starting with Stephen.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@TheSmithDorian It was against ROMAN law to execute someone without the governor's permission. Jewish law prescribes the death penalty for many many crimes, including blasphemy.
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 1
Indeed. So the question is; Was the killing spree that S/Paul went on in Jerusalem sanctioned by Pilate? Unlikely - he wouldn't have cared about the fate of any particular Jew/Christian but he cared about stability, keeping order and maintaining Roman Authority. Delegating his power of execution to Jewish death squads wouldn't have helped and wasn't Pilate's style.
So if these killings actually took place it would have been without Roman permission.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@TheSmithDorian Pilate wasn't governor of Judea when Saul was persecuting Christians, but I think the governor would have allowed the Jews to execute people because not allowing it would have been akin to not letting them practice their religion. I don't really think Christians were being executed at that point anyway. Paul doesn't admit to killing anyone, and James, the leader, lived right in Jerusalem. He didn't have to hide out in the wilderness or anything.
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 1
There's debate about whether Pilate was Prefect or Procurate, but let's say that he was Rome's governing authority in Judea. He was in that position until late 36 / early 37AD. Paul's conversion was supposed to have happened in 35/36AD so his presecutions would have been prior to this and within Pilate's period in charge.
" not allowing [executions by Jews] would have been akin to not letting them practice their religion" Their religion stated that Judea belonged to them .
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
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@KayBeeEee1983 2
..but I'm sure Rome didn't plan to give it back for the sake of religious tolerance. Rome might delegate authority to subserviant local kings / rulers but not to religious groups / factions in places where Rome had a military presence.
"I don't think Christians were being executed at that point anyway" - I agree.
"Paul doesn't admit to killing anyone".True but he claims to have imprisoned them and voted for their execution.
Re: James - I agree. Paul's account doesn't jive.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 2
But Paul talks about casting his vote against particular Christians in a council. This implies that the most senior Jewish Priests were party to coordinated and systematic acts of serious disobedience against Roman authority.Again this is unlikely - their positions and their lives depended on keeping on Pilates good side. They wouldn't have risked that by endorsing unsanctioned public executions.
So we have one of many claims made by Paul in the Bible that lacks credibility.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@Darwinsman "if the death was followed by a resurrection, which, if he was the son of god, he knew would happen, then even his death isn't any form of atonement."
How do you figure?
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
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Darwinsman 2 months ago
Comment removed
Darwinsman 2 months ago
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@KayBeeEee1983 1/3. The idea of Jesus dying for our sins is just a sick extension of the ancient Jewish custom of scapegoating. In any case, even If Jesus was real, there was no real sacrifice on the cross.
Jesus was arrested and tried. (Which he knew would happen)
He was crucified. (Which he knew would happen)
He then rose from the dead and sits for eternity in the comfort of Heaven. (Which he also knew would happen)
Where's the sacrifice? Cont'd
Darwinsman 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 2/3. Even the crucifixion only lasted 3 – 6hrs when most crucifixions lasted days, not hours.
I’m sorry, but apart from a short period of pain, there was no real sacrifice.
Many atheists have been tortured and have given their lives to help their fellow men, with no thought of resurrection or reward in heaven. Doesn’t that make their sacrifice greater than Jesus?
Maybe they should change the passage in John 3:16 to make it more accurate. Cont’d.
Darwinsman 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 3/3. It should read:
“For God so needed the adulation of the world, that he LOANED his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should be fooled into thinking that they would not perish, but have everlasting life, so they would be guilt tricked into worshipping him forever.”
If the only way to absolve “sins” was for Jesus to sacrifice his life, then this would mean that, for Christians, their “sins” have not been absolved and they all still have them.
Darwinsman 2 months ago
@TheSmithDorian The resurrection supposedly proves that he was indeed the messiah and the son of god.
"The whole sacrifice / death / atonement / resurrection concept is fundamentally flawed"
How so? Other than (1) because the idea that god needs blood is insane, and (2) because resurrection is impossible?
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
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@KayBeeEee1983 A
"The resurrection supposedly proves that he was indeed the messiah and the son of god"
For a start; the Messiah wasn't supposed to be the Son of God or God himself. He was supposed to be a man blessed by God - like David or Moses. He was supposed to be a king that would restore the kingdom of Israel and usher in an era of peace.
Ask yourself how Jesus dying and being resurrected has the slightest thing to do with what the messiah was supposed to have been or done.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 B
Does the resurrection prove that Jesus was the Son of God?
There is nothing in the OT that even mentions the existence of the Son of God and consequently no prophecy concerning his resurrection. Such an event cannot therefore be scriptural proof of anything.
If the Son of God really was an eternal spirit, as people claim, the idea of him being physically resurrected and ascending to heaven in a human body makes no sense at all. What use would a human body be in heaven?
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 C
"How so? Other than (1) because the idea that god needs blood is insane, and (2) because resurrection is impossible?"
i) Why does God need anything (blood or any other sacrifice) to forgive mankind. He could just do it if he wanted to.
ii) Why does God hate and regret creating mankind so much that he kills all the world's population except Noah and family at one point then at another loves us all so much that he sacrifices his only son so that we can live forever?
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 D
iii) God had already given the Israelites specific instructions concerning the law and the appropriate sacrifices that needed to be made to atone for their sins. Why have them do this for 1500 yrs if it all meant nothing because his son (that he told nobody about) hadn't yet come to earth to be killed?
v) In the OT how could Enoch and Elijah have ascended to heaven if they had not been "saved" by Jesus' coming?
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 E
vi) A sacrifice is supposed to entail the sinner sacrificing something of value (a lamb, goat etc) and offering it to God as recognition that you have sinned and to ask for forgiveness. In Jesus case it's God sacrificing something he values and the sinners are neither recognizing their sins nor asking for forgiveness. It makes no sense.
vii) God's sacrifice isn't a sacrifice if he resurrects Jesus. I'd happily give all my salary to the church if I got it back 3 days later.
TheSmithDorian 2 months ago
Hmmm, "God killed Jesus." Wouldn't that mean that if Jesus is this God that Jesus committed suicide?
TheGenuineChristian 10 months ago
@TheGenuineChristian Yes. Have a look at the description box.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
Jesus loves the jews, Jesus is pissed off you killed him...all of you Humans.
I dont know why he took it out on Japan 1st but....Jesus is american and all you dumb americans were buying nothing but Japanese cars. They were not buying American cars so... He destroyed them...again. They are used to it and thats what they get for not buying american cars. You going to buy american or...deal with the omnipotent american God? God is gangsta, you wanna play? Your move..choose wisely.
MyFishyWishy 11 months ago
@MyFishyWishy
Bud, are you trolling? I really hope you are, if so good job. If not... uh...
boblajoe1 10 months ago
@boblajoe1 Yes it was a joke,,sort of. American soldeirs are killing in the name of Jesus.
Jesus returns to do what? Bring forth the apocolpyse! He wants to set the credit back to 0 (Fight Club) He also wants to see Sarah Palin burn at the stake (liar liar pants on fire). He also wants to see all religious tradition removed for a new non traditional form of worship (Stigmata the movie).
And He want'ts you to buy a ford and support our troops!! Yee haw!!!
MyFishyWishy 10 months ago
Yes I know that God sent His Son to the cross see Isa 53:10. libertarian free will does NOT exist. But you are still morally responsible for your sins. They acted with their CREATURELY FREEDOM to follow their sinful nature. They meant if for evil. God meant it for the salvation of man. So once again you show you have NO CLUE. I suggest that you look up "compatibilism"
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath " Isa 53:10"
Isaiah 53 has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. See my "Jesus Was Not the Messiah" series.
"libertarian free will does NOT exist. But you are still morally responsible for your sins."
How so?
"They acted with their CREATURELY FREEDOM....."
You just said there is no free will. Now you're saying there is. "X" and "Not X." Why am I not surprised?
"I suggest that you look up 'compatibilism'."
Know all about it.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH RE: Isaiah 53 ... WOW you sure are full of yourself. You really think that the church just got this one wrong for 2000 years. You're really not interested in learning, all you want is to do is spread your hatred and propaganda against God... I had enough of your propaganda.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath "Isaiah 53 ... You really think that the church just got this one wrong for 2000 years."
Indeed. I make my argument in the "Jesus Was Not the Messiah" series.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH you think that men a lot smarter than you and the once hostile Apostle Paul a JEWISH Pharisee just got every thing wrong. you really are full of yourself.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath You're kind of a one-trick pony with the "men a lot smarter than you" stuff and the carrying on about Paul. I've made my argument. Refute it if you can. Just telling me other Christians have agreed with you establishes NOTHING.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH It shows how very little you really know.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath The only thing it shows is that you're a dunce who cannot make an argument to support his claims.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH lets see now. the Church taught this for 2000. the apostle Paul who first hated Christians never seen your false reasoning. if you truly think you came up with something new to defeat Christianity than you really have hatred problems.
rbmath 11 months ago
So, would you hold that nobody can be held responsible for their actions if we live in a causally determined universe?
LordProfBear 11 months ago
@LordProfBear Great question. People couldn't be held responsible in the same way as when volition is a factor. But society could still justify, e.g., imprisoning criminals; the imprisonment would, I think, be primarily about protecting society from those who do things that threaten it. In the Bible story I discuss here, it seems impossible to make a case for the actors' culpability since they were merely acting in accordance with what an omnipotent, omniscient god predestined & foreknew.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH I ask only because the paper you cite is a response to Frankfurt's arguments in favour of Compatibilism. I suppose the argument a Christian might put forward would be that whilst the event (Jesus' death) had to happen, individual actors could have chosen not to take part - it's just that SOMEONE would have executed Jesus. Thus the individuals chose to be the ones who "did the deed", as it were, and are thus culpable.
LordProfBear 11 months ago
@LordProfBear "I suppose the argument a Christian might put forward would be that whilst the event (Jesus' death) had to happen, individual actors could have chosen not to take part - it's just that SOMEONE would have executed Jesus."
Right. And many *do* make that argument. However, I don't believe the argument available to them in light of what Acts 4:27-28 says about Pilate, Herod, the Jews, et alia being "gathered together" to do "whatever [God's] hand and purpose predestined to occur."
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH Hmm. Well, it says they were gathered together in 4:17. Then in 4:18 the thing related to "hand and council" is the death of Jesus, rather than the gathering. It strikes me that there is no necessary reason to say God specifically gathered those men, rather than that they had gathered there.
LordProfBear 11 months ago
@LordProfBear "It strikes me that there is no necessary reason to say God specifically gathered those men...."
Oh, I strongly disagree. The gathering doesn't seem to make sense if the passage doesn't mean to convey that it was God bringing together the specific actors for the plan he had predestined them to fulfill. They "were gathered" "to do."
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH Well the prior passage (4:26 - sorry for the previous reference error) also says "gathered together" but says that it was "against the Lord". It strikes me that "gathered" here means simply that they themselves were together. The repetition in the next passage would seem to be related to the prior usage. If the first usage is used to show people gathering themselves against the Lord, why would we count the second usage as being gathered BY the Lord?
LordProfBear 11 months ago
@LordProfBear "The Lord" they were gathered against was Jesus, not the Christian god in heaven. I don't know how to explain it better than I have: it seems to me the gathering makes no sense in context if the author doesn't mean to convey that God gathered certain people together to execute his predetermined and predestined plan. If that's not what the author means to say, one is left with the odd impression that God was hoping some people would show up to get the job done.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH The passage says "against the Lord and his anointed". If the Lord meant Jesus, who was the anointed?
LordProfBear 11 months ago
@LordProfBear Serves me right for not looking at the passage again before I commented. Pardon my not looking back. In any case, I still think it doesn't make sense if God is not the one doing the gathering for the reasons I've already stated.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH I gave the wrong reference and you didn't look back at the passage, I think we can call that even :)
I'm still not sure I agree with you, but I'm perfectly prepared to accept I may be in error.
Pleasure talking to you.
LordProfBear 11 months ago
@LordProfBear "Pleasure talking to you."
You too. Hope we can do it again. :-)
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH Well I usually agree with you. You could make a ridiculously stupid video that I could rip into and we could go from there. Otherwise it might be a while.
Regards.
LordProfBear 11 months ago
Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus.
THERIGHTWAYTOISLAM 11 months ago
@THERIGHTWAYTOISLAM "Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus."
And what is the basis for that claim?
ProfMTH 11 months ago
I will never understand why people associate Easter with Jesus when it has nothing to do with him anyway.
MultiArchangel 1 year ago
@MultiArchangel: I thought it was about selling crap to morons...by convincing them that it has religious significance.
Ah.
EddieTheFishReturns 11 months ago
Gawd, I luv u!
julzabro 1 year ago
@julzabro ;-) Thanks. Luv right back.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Conclusion: God made those people do sins. So why the fuck does God send those men to hell for his own sins? Doesn't make sense, does it? Doesn't make sense just like ever other religion. That's why I'm an atheist.
drrobertoboogie97 1 year ago
@drrobertoboogie97 I guess god just felt someone had to be punished for his own errors, he just didnt want to take the punishment himself :P
Sweddude 11 months ago
You are making the faulty assumption that man has to have autonomous freedom to be held accountable by God. You are assuming that man is not free unless their is a chance that he could have chosen otherwise. God does NOT play dice with the universe. There is NO such thing as chance ultimately and YES God does hold man responsible for his actions. NO contradiction either biblically or philosophically here.
Blogrich55 1 year ago
@Blogrich55 "assumption" "You are assuming"
Actually, I'm not assuming anything. I've presented an argument. If you can refute that argument, then you should do so. Merely saying that your god has predetermined everything doesn't refute the argument, it merely restates the problem that the argument addresses.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH "Actually, I'm not assuming anything. I've presented an argument."
You are assuming a will is not free unless it is autonomous. THAT is a pretty big assumption sir. Looking at your other comments shows you have also assumed coerced compliance of a rape victim to be the same as one freely doing that which he has been predetermined to do.The victim is well aware of their being coerced. The person who acts freely (NOT autonomously) is not acting under a sense of compulsion or coercion.
Blogrich55 1 year ago
@Blogrich55 "You are assuming a will is not free unless it is autonomous."
Again, I've presented an argument. As I said the 1st time you made the above-quoted claim, if you can refute the argument, then you should do so.
"one freely doing that which he has been predetermined to do"
That's X & Not X. Again, you need an argument, not the mere assertions you've been posting.
"The person who acts freely (NOT autonomously) is not acting under a sense of compulsion or coercion."
So?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH "That's X & Not X. Again, you need an argument, not the mere assertions you've been posting."
Mitch, you have not proved the point at issue. You assert that it's X and Not X. This must be demonstrated and proved. I am preparing a video response to you on this subject.
Blogrich55 1 year ago
@Blogrich55 "I am preparing a video response to you on this subject."
Excellent.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
And WHO, exactly, is God responsible to? Who is going to hold God accountable?
SmolyHoax 1 year ago
Because of mankind's Evil, instead of breaking his promise by destroying earth once again through a great flood, he warns Israel 100's of years prior, that he would send a servant/Lamb to atone for the sins of many.
The Jews were without excuse. (Isaiah53:5,10 & Zechariah12:10)
Pontius Pilate was without excuse.(Mathew27:19, John18:37)
Judas without excuse. (Mathew26:24,mathew27:4!
All these men CHOSE by their own free-will to continue being Evil!
HAPPY EASTER!
THEBEREANZ 1 year ago
@THEBEREANZ "All these men CHOSE by their own free-will"
You're free to believe as you like, of course. But that's not what the New Testament says. Sorry.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
God didn't kill Jesus, He laid His life down so that all mankind could be saved from their sins.
1954phyllis 1 year ago
@1954phyllis So it was all Jesus' idea? All those passages about God's predestined and predetermined plan are just idle chatter?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Yes,Jesus even told Pilot He could only do what was granted to him to do,so yes ,it was God doing it all.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "...yes, it ws God doing it all."
Thank you.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Your welcome!
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Here's the good part,if you repent and believe you will have everlasting life.Prof.God can even save you .
CBALLEN 1 year ago
It pleased the Father to crush the Son,He did it for His Elect.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN So you agree that it was God's predetermined plan at work, that everything went according to the way God predestined it, that it was God who killed Jesus, and that none of the human actors were culpable?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH God consigned us ALL to sin so that He could glorify Himself,that's it.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "God consigned us ALL to sin so that He could glorify Himself,that's it."
That doesn't answer the question I asked you. Here it is again. Do you agree that Jesus' execution was God's predetermined plan at work, that everything went according to the way God predestined it to go, that it was God who killed Jesus, and that none of the human actors were culpable?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
TheTomtompiper u have a little miss understanding, when Jesus says "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHAN?" "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" he is not denying God, he is referencing to Psalms 22. If u read into the account of Jesus' crucifixion and several of the verses in the Psalm you will find that description in the Psalm, is the experience in which Jesus is going through.
madskillz7644 1 year ago