im assuming this guy is black, which is why he's getting so worked up about slavery, but it's so convenient that he's ignoring the fact that his bible encourages slavery, and if he disagrees with that then does that mean he's not christian?? or that morals are NOT sent from some single cosmos?? shame matt and tracie didnt push that more...
@kfetter16 I agree. As so often the callers haven't read their own damn bible. When confronted with the fact said bible openly condones slavery he just slides on by, willfully oblivious and ignorant
I got BANNED from commenting by Atheist Experience SIMPLY for suggesting they tackle other religions like Judaism, and look into the racism and other immorality within the Jewish oral law.
That PROVES right there that they're NOT an atheist organization at all, rather simply an anti-Christian organization (and I'm not a Christian).
Because some of these hypocrites are ethnically Jewish (some of the hosts) they REFUSE to talk about the Jewish religion, so they're not proper atheists at all!
The problem with this caller is that he wants to stablish what is right and what is wrong and force the "right" inside ppls mind. You cannot force anything inside ppls mind by force (at least atm)...
The problem of the world is not about what ppl think...its about ppl do.
I think the caller has a point in the latter half of the video. I think he is right to question moral relativism. If most people believed that slavery was ok, then who is to say it isn't? If you accept that morality has absolutes, then it is easy to condemn slavery, based on it's effect on well-being. I suggest they read The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris.
@FemaleUnknownUser yeah I know that, you are missing my point. What I'm saying is if morality is relative then there is nothing you can say against it. But I don't think morality should be relative.
@tbennett450 Hmm... that depends on what you mean by "nothing". If there is a basis for morality that a lot of people can agree on, e. g. that it's bad to kill other people, they have the necessary strength to enforce this.
@FemaleUnknownUser yeah but if a lot of people agreed on slavery being acceptable then it would be moral by that logic. What I am saying is we can objectively view certain things as immoral because of their effect on well-being. When you accept that morality is based on well-being then it stops being relative - though of course we may not always know exactly what the effects would be, we usually have a good idea
@tbennett450 That's the point: things can only be considered moral or immoral if you compare them to certain moral standards. If your moral standards are such that slavery is ok by them, then from your point of view, slavery is moral. Someone else with a more individualistc, pathocentristic morality would be equally correct in considering it immoral. This relativity is why people in biblical times didn't think of slavery as immoral - according to their morality, it simply wasn't.
@FemaleUnknownUser Exactly, but there is something wrong with that isn't there? It shouldn't take a consensus to conclude that slavery is wrong, otherwise it's just arbitrary. If 51% of the population suddenly decided that slavery was acceptable then you would have to agree that it is moral, which is clearly not the case. Slavery is not moral in any way, and we can say that scientifically and unquestionably, regardless of other peoples views
This guy is just completely disregarding everything previously said in an attempt to try and throw some half-assed straw man argument against them. I call it the fleeing christian approach.
The Atheist Experience team are a bunch of hypocrites; they don't want reasoned sensible discussion or debate; if you make any relevant point they end up blocking you; clearly they just want the fundie fruitcake calling who will only be aware of this idiotic reductive literalist extreme interpretation of the Bible; this is old hat; debated down the centuries; they offer nothing new, only extremism and become as the people they accuse
I know a black preacher that sounds exactly like that caller. He argues just like him. Brings up irrelevant shit, changes shit around, and he will go on and on till you just have to give up cuz you realize you're just wasting time arguing with him cuz he won't STFU.
On a side note, the guy I'm talking about (like I said he preaches at a church) has like 12-14 kids with who knows how many women. I guess he's one of those "christians" that picks and chooses what parts of the bible to follow.
What bothers me is people think if you do good works you get an E ticket to the magic kingdom and if that's your only motivation for doing good then your doing good for all the wrong reasons.
This guy is defending a book that was probably responsible for his ancestors getting enslaved and forced to accept an inferior status to whites until the 20th century.
I just keep laughing, they are so sure when they are talking about this god or Jesus ( we don't even know if Jesus was really a real person ). Black people, please stop this foolishness ( we have to do better ), you sound so stupid argueing something on faith & interpretation..
@spiegeltn Ok, so I went there, and had a read. What I got from it is that the bible is a book of fables no more truthful than harry potter books, and that the web site you linked to just parrots what the bible says.
These callers are all the same; entering conversation with no knowledge of how an atheist is made, the function of science and at no point taking in what is said.
The only ones who give a shit about whos right and whos wrong are just looking for someone to blame. Fuck that. It really doesnt matter, its who is doing right and whos doing wrong.
When I'm arguing with someone who obviously knows way more about the topic than I do, I notice it and I stop fucking arguing. These callers man, these callers...
Also moral absolutes and total moral relativism are both extremist bullshit.
Killing is wrong if you murder some random guy for a sandwich, but if you say... shot Breivik in the head in the middle of his killing spree, stopping the carnage, that'd be killing, but it'd be good! So morals are NOT absolute.
Yet their not all relative either. Because female genital mutilation isn't morally right because it's local culture in some area's.
Generally speaking I find moral absolutism the most offensive of the two extremes. And it's typically held by infantile right-wing/religious assholes who don't have the first clue what the fuck their even talking about.
But absolute relativism is kind of annoying too. It's the sort of bullshit I associate with some flavours of libertarians who think they should legally be allowed to have deathmatches if the combatants are okay with it.
What's with American christians and their common idea that only faith matters? That's a huge license to be a complete asshole, a philosophy like that. But in addition it's actually COMPLETELY contradictory to what Jesus said (Who called those people hypocrites and pretty much hellbound.)
That's just it. The fundies don't follow their own religion. According to their own bible they're going to hell.
US-style christian fundamentalism is a truly ridiculous flavour of religion ever if you ask me.
King James Version A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Created by God but denying it, calling evil good and good evil, won't even admit God gave us breath!
This guy sounds like a black baptist preacher that's whacked out on crystal meth! He's trying so hard to make his case that he's rambling incoherently. I couldn't imagine a person trying desperately to convince a neurologist that pure crack cocaine is actually good for your brain. Matt is a preacher without his piece of paper...he knows his religion. Talking fast and loud doesn't make a person right about anything.
What I find sometimes amusing and sometimes annoying is how most religious believers don't have a damn clue about thier own religion. they have a Holy Book, and NOTHING else matters. Including writings and admissions by thier own historical religious leaders. 90% of Christians do not know that the Bible was voted on at the third council of Trent and they voted OUT a ton of things that up until that time were considered 'Gospel'. So much for the word of Gog.
actually for once ..the panel did a very poor job of answering his points. The answer is that wanting a 'god' basis for morality doesnt make that 'god' real. Existence makes existence true..nothing else. That point must be made before their arguments on morality make sense.
Morality is opinions, why do some people find that so hard to grasp? Simpletons like to look at really obvious things like paedophillia and say "this is obviously wrong therefore morality is objective" when it's just that almost everyone has the same opinion.
Absolute morality is another myth. These people just don't get it....which is astounding since the morality in their bible is so sickening and different from our own.
how can any one who went to college to study God, claim to be an atheist ??? it is like a chinaman disbelieving he is chinese and now claims to be indian.... very pathetic!!!!!
@zdunichme I don't know ./ it is your logical reasoning not mine... but if you KNOW what music is, how can you unknow what music is..?? matt is not an atheist but a disobediant believer.. no where in the difinition of atheist is it ever stated "a person who once believed ."
@Falconn003 I was raised a christian myself, I "believed" as much as the next person. I can very comfortably say now that i am an agnostic atheist. Having once believed has nothing to do with it. I initially believed santa claus was real. I don't anymore. People learn things, people change the views and perspective.
@zdunichme call yourself what you want. by knowledge alone you can not possibly be - athest. "Having once believed has nothing to do with it." really and where is this rule or law written ,,no where but in your mind. "people change the views and perspective." this is true and this alone does not change the person or person's knowledge.... you are a disobediant believer.. you are past being any sort of the defined word of atheist, through your sheer knowledge of God.... unkow is impossible.
@zdunichme you can cry, you are an alien to the world all you want, you are born with secular knowledge you will die with secular knowledge. Having Knowledge of God, you will continue to apply this through out your life and you do so in hypocracy. How can you even believe to separate the knowledge of God and keep it from ever being concieve as a thought or action ..YOU CAN NOT !! I rest my case !!
@Falconn003 um what? most of that doesn't make sense and/or isnt true. Although i agree that "unknowing" something is impossible, unless you forget it of course. All of that is beside the point anyway. Pplz dont just start attacking, or im done, youve attacked enough ppl.
"Aethism is lack of belief in a god... " matt and his utter BS, he peddles... to abstain from the use of "believe or not believe", as it demonstrates a condition already set forth in a book you detest... how pathetic really. being that matt grew in a religious home and went to a college, for religion will never constitue him as an athesit, no matter how much BS he shovels... matt's life will always encapsulate religion in some form or another and the worst thing is matt knows it !!
You know, despite my being an atheist, I actually think the guy on the phone made a good point about an absolute right and wrong. Without an absolute determination of what constitutes a right and wrong action, there is no way one can say that say...the Holocaust was a bad thing because so many Germans didn't think it was wrong at the time. To them I say it is blatantly obvious that the Holocaust was a bad thing, regardless of what culture you come from.
@MrMadmanbob "Without an absolute determination of what constitutes a right and wrong action,there is no way one can say that say...the Holocaust was a bad thing because so many Germans didn't think it was wrong at the time." Well, its not just the germans that matter in the context. If we are going to assume that what is morally right and wrong based on how the mass population feels, you have to take the mass population into consideration.
@zdunichme The form of morality you are describing is both incredibly impractical and ineffective. You imply that one must ask the entire world before making any kind of moral decision. How exactly would one do that? You can't simply cast a majority vote to see if something is wrong. In medieval times, women were treated as inferiors to men pretty much throughout the globe. By your logic, that subjugation was ok because it was globally accepted. Right and wrong are not subject to opinion.
@MrMadmanbob I did not say one person has to physically go and ask everyone what they think. Also you cant expect the human race in the past equally moral to now, we were a younger, stupider, less moral race that didnt think about much other than surviving. Now since we can easily survive day to day, things have changed. In addition, it wouldn't be a "vote". One can tell if something is morally wrong or right by the consequences, and reactions.
@zdunichme My point is that in order to say that the people in the past were immoral, you need to first define an absolute standard of what constitutes moral and immoral actions (not specifically what those actions are, but what it is about those actions that make them immoral); it can't just be opinions. Your last comment about consequences would be a good example of an objective moral standard.
@MrMadmanbob My last comment is everything. Nothing more needs to be said. "One can tell if something is morally wrong or right by the consequences, and reactions."
he keeps confusing right or wrong with correct and incorrect. I wonder why Matt pointed this out right in the beginning then let him repeat it over and over again. Did I miss something?
spiritual revelation comes when we stop centering on the id or the ego, which gives one a more universal conciousness which help one see life for what it realy is
@livluv4muisc 1st calm down and grab ya a tube of vagisil... i only screwing with you...as must often is the case with you types is the gramerical errors you love to point out of others on a net were people type using BFF, LOL..LMAO...etc.. so apply ASS needed and please don't get it in your eyes or mouth. ><
@Falconn003 i understand your point. you were trolling. i'm basically questioning why you are still replying to me, when i'm making it very obvious i would like to drop the conversation. so once again i guess ill say it again, you don't make sense.
@livluv4muisc i will drop responding to you. cause obviously you like your little bubbled world... but one last thing how can someone state " i understand your point" and in the very same post reply "you don't make sense" what is this to show off for your comrads here ??? it is better to drop the conversation.. so little brain cells left
@Falconn003 idk how u think i live in a "bubbled world" cause i don't want to argue with u about me saying "in" instead of "on". your very dumb if u cannot understand how one can understand someones point but it still cannot make sense. for example(to give u a better idea on what i mean by, i understand u, but you do not make sense)
@Falconn003 lol you should read more. i cant take someone who doesn't read and analyze words very well seriously. i would drop this conversation but some people need to know when there wrong. for ex. christian's
@Falconn003 you explain to me that killing people is what u like to do, and then u expalin y u like killing people. i understand your point, but you don't make sense, it doesnt make sense that u made what your saying senseable. at all.
@livluv4muisc- "you explain to me that killing people is what u like to do' I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING.. i can see why drop it, your off your freackin meds.... so go ahead and listen to your pink elephant friend .. NOW THIS IS INCOHERENT >>>> "it doesnt make sense that u made what your saying senseable"
"Aethism is lack of belief in a god... " Why then, do all so called aethist indulge in: Love, Caring, Hope, Civility Laws, Justice, Goodness, Marriage, Cleanliness, Knowledge...etc...
And still claim with impunity thier unblief in God, yet still hold unto the virtues and traits that originated from a belief in God... ???? These so called aethist are (insert word) !.
@Casper3417 is that all you got attacks... why not ask yourself were those traits and atributes concerning all forms of Love originated from... and if you beleive that stupid notion of chemical reaction, try selling that theory in your wedding vows... like it or not the only true from of aethism on this planets are animals, insects, flora and protozoa but of course you think you are an animal... explains alot really.
@Falconn003 So you think "love" can only come from a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully? You are a moron, go crawl back under your rock and take your "holy" book with you
@Casper3417 excuse , but what do you got to show that God is a " petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully?" what proof do you have really. not a damn thing but your own deprived logic. and who can argue with a lunatic such as yourself ? only a moron speaks so bodly amongst his peers..
@Falconn003 you need proof that your god is a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully? Well then look no further then the very bible you hold so dear. dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot(dot)com/2008/12/richard-dawkins-god-of-old-testament.html
@Casper3417 I need no such proof, It is your disclaimer not mine..argue your own beleifs !!
The bible is errantly read wrong .. and your post just proves that very fact... that you are indeed ignorant of the Spirit within the words... but go ahead with your magical mockery.. it is typical of ignorance. dick dawkins has no clue what the OT is about . not one damn clue... and so he makes crap up to peddle his BS with impunity, which of course you buy into with no hessitation.
@Casper3417 well now that your freakish prono is out of the closet do you feel a wee bit better.... if i were drooped as you say. i would be equal in your stupidity and tantrums... but of course i am not.. ><
@Casper3417 SO that is all you got , nothing but a teenage testosterone tantrum ... do the world a favor castrate yourself... don't think about just do it ... and let chance take it's course. really :)
@Falconn003 you call me a lost cause because I do not believe in your sick pathetic god? I think you are a lost cause because you do. Do you still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny? Your nothing but a pathetic troll, go die in a fire.
@rickross22 so instead of actually trying to debate this you resort to sum your ideaology in this manner,,, confusing ,, must be nice living in your own bubbled world...
@Falconn003 Because im not about to write a whole essay on here, go read a book other than the bible. Study psychology man, or watch more of these atheist experience video, you'll get your answer.
@rickross22 so your beliefs stem from out of essays...?? opinions ..?? and because you beleive in them , they magicaly become factual...
My mind does not work this way... psychology is a waste of time in MHO. these atheist experience are not experiances at all, they are nothing but snubs from ignorant people who make shit up .. nothing more... i do not need an atheist experiance, I would experiance it for myself. and not follow like a brain dead lemming.
@Falconn003 hhuuuuhh? How are they ignorant? And if you are asking "Why people think a certain way"(the whole right/wrong/correct/incorrect). How can you then say psychology is a waste of time? is the only thing you find factual the bible and your beliefs(opinions)?
@rickross22 thinking a certain way . excludes all logic that would other wise hinder that thinking a certain way is parrelle with ignorance... near stupidity.
psychology if practical would have nearly all the world label as ADHA.. or ADD or the new one ..ADULT ATENTION DEFIECIT DISORDER... again a waste of time. what happen to the day dreamer,,, they are on meds now.. meds from a company subsidize by the Gov, and with lobbist that would make you blush.
right(correct) AND wrong(bad)... ???? If you had stated right(correct) AND wrong(incorrect) or right(good) AND wrong (bad) you might have an argument and a point; the OP's statement sums up incoherently....
CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL. THEY SHOULD FORGIVE SATAN. YOU CHRISTIANS COMMIT A LOT OF SINS(WHATEVER THAT MEANS) BUT SATAN MESSES UP ONCE, AND IS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN.
THAT SUCKS FOR SATAN. FORGIVE HIM. SHOW SATAN SOME LOVE AND TREAT HIM LIKE A BROTHER AND HE MIGHT CHANGE HIS WAYS OR BECOME A BETTER GOD.
This caller is a master. Hysterical. Jumping all over the place. He's hopped up on something. The hosts showed some major self-control to not lose it with him. Very funny.
Disagreements in morality doesn't mean that "morality is personal", just like the fact that disagreements in science doesn't mean that "nature is personal". If 2 people disagree it just means one of them is probably wrong (maybe both of them are wrong).
of course right and wrong has a meaning without authority. if you are on a desert island with a man/woman, there is no authority there but it will still be wrong to rape her. it is wrong to rape not because "someone says", but because the woman suffers from it.
i agree that absolute morality assumes there is a correct answer. but absolute morality doesn't need a "third party".
@tombenarye1234 assuming that every single living creature is capable of such cruelty (highly intelligent mammals included), is it really surprising? no predator can live if they don't kill their prey. its cruel to you, but you cannot prove they don't find it cruel, unless a third party confirms they do.
I don't care if they "find it cruel" or not, because moral isn't about opinions - it is absolute. It doesn't matter what the predator think about his action, it is only matter if the action is justified or not.
You don't need a third party to have a right answer. Even if you can't prove a specific answer is right, there is one right answer. Lets say there was a murder. either Tim or Ben did it. lets say you don't have proofs. no. it just mean *you* can't find it
@tombenarye1234 equating morality with science implies morality has a binary outcome which has an observable output. the burden of proof is on the moral objectivist to provide a repeatable method to prove morality is the same everywhere. the argument falls down pretty quickly from there and its clear to see this is impossible to prove.
I didn't say morality is like science, I said that your argument that "if people disagree then the answer must be subjective" is nonsense, and I gave science as an example to show your argument is invalid.
@tombenarye1234 fair point, but you still ignore my point that there are no existing metrics to base morality on. in order to be an atheist, it would have to be a tangible, quantifiable thing when in reality its likely an evolved set of responses from tightly cultural communities throughout our evolutionary system, that got 'watered' out into a generally accepted medium.
There is a right answer, and usually it's not hard finding it. You just need to be objective (=not choosing an answer just because it suits you), have logic on your side (not being plain dumb) to get to the correct answer.
arguing that more is subjective just make people to not make an effort trying to get the question right, cause "it's a matter of perspective anyway, so why bother trying to be correct? lets just go with what is in our self interest."
@tombenarye1234 its a matter of perspective, but that doesn't mean we don't stand by our judgment on convictions as a collective. we have a society that we are strongly attached to, we feel has worked for the better of all of us, and as such do not wish to see anyone suffer the consequences of antisocial behavior.
your argument misleadingly equates whether or not the crime was committed (a tangible concept) and whether or not it was right. these are two very different things.
My argument says that if the authorities accept the "crime" then it's not a crime at all, according to your logic.
From your logic the only problem with Hitler is that he wasn't strong enough to enforce his will. If he would have won, then by your logic he was right (according to the subjective morality line of thinking), right?
@tombenarye1234 Godwin's law aside, he wouldn't have been right by me, nor anyone I know. but how can you honestly say an objective morality could exist were he got his way and got an aryan utopia over the course of generations? its totally reprehensible to me and you, but would you honestly think a society would care over a few generations, if they are happier? Think about how long it took for us to end slavery. All you have are your convictions, or those of a collective
@tombenarye1234 should it? the prime argument of modern atheism is that more realms of abstract thinking should be exposed to the scientific method. considering, in its simplest form, it has applied in all societies that have existed, I would say very much that morality deserves the same scrutiny the scientific method has applied to, say, religion.
Facts can show what has happened or what will happen. they can tell us what *should* happen. Whether god exist is a matter of fact (he either exists or not). We can check if that's probable or not, like any other hypothesis. moral isn't like this. It's not a matter of fact. but rather a matter of desiring a better, objective world. You can't answer the question "what should happen" by showing facts. it makes no sense.
@tbennett450 whether you think morality SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be relative is irrelevant to whether or not it is.
Ematched 23 hours ago
@Ematched I mean it should not be viewed as relative because it is not relative
tbennett450 13 hours ago
That caller is trying too hard to make them wrong about something just so he can have a gotcha moment. That caller is a dumbass.
turboboy68 4 days ago
im assuming this guy is black, which is why he's getting so worked up about slavery, but it's so convenient that he's ignoring the fact that his bible encourages slavery, and if he disagrees with that then does that mean he's not christian?? or that morals are NOT sent from some single cosmos?? shame matt and tracie didnt push that more...
kfetter16 5 days ago
@kfetter16 I agree. As so often the callers haven't read their own damn bible. When confronted with the fact said bible openly condones slavery he just slides on by, willfully oblivious and ignorant
bigglyguy 4 days ago
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I got BANNED from commenting by Atheist Experience SIMPLY for suggesting they tackle other religions like Judaism, and look into the racism and other immorality within the Jewish oral law.
That PROVES right there that they're NOT an atheist organization at all, rather simply an anti-Christian organization (and I'm not a Christian).
Because some of these hypocrites are ethnically Jewish (some of the hosts) they REFUSE to talk about the Jewish religion, so they're not proper atheists at all!
GnosticHumanist 5 days ago
this guy is fucking stupid
trufuknplaya 6 days ago
The problem with this caller is that he wants to stablish what is right and what is wrong and force the "right" inside ppls mind. You cannot force anything inside ppls mind by force (at least atm)...
The problem of the world is not about what ppl think...its about ppl do.
TheBrunozxc 6 days ago
When asked "what made you change your belief in god".....
Matt, Matt you should have just told the truth and said, "I just read the bible".....
Getsen42 1 week ago
I think the caller has a point in the latter half of the video. I think he is right to question moral relativism. If most people believed that slavery was ok, then who is to say it isn't? If you accept that morality has absolutes, then it is easy to condemn slavery, based on it's effect on well-being. I suggest they read The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris.
tbennett450 1 week ago
@tbennett450 "who is to say it's wrong?"
Anybody who has standards by which it is wrong.
FemaleUnknownUser 1 day ago
@FemaleUnknownUser yeah I know that, you are missing my point. What I'm saying is if morality is relative then there is nothing you can say against it. But I don't think morality should be relative.
tbennett450 1 day ago
@tbennett450 Hmm... that depends on what you mean by "nothing". If there is a basis for morality that a lot of people can agree on, e. g. that it's bad to kill other people, they have the necessary strength to enforce this.
FemaleUnknownUser 14 hours ago
@FemaleUnknownUser yeah but if a lot of people agreed on slavery being acceptable then it would be moral by that logic. What I am saying is we can objectively view certain things as immoral because of their effect on well-being. When you accept that morality is based on well-being then it stops being relative - though of course we may not always know exactly what the effects would be, we usually have a good idea
tbennett450 13 hours ago
@tbennett450 That's the point: things can only be considered moral or immoral if you compare them to certain moral standards. If your moral standards are such that slavery is ok by them, then from your point of view, slavery is moral. Someone else with a more individualistc, pathocentristic morality would be equally correct in considering it immoral. This relativity is why people in biblical times didn't think of slavery as immoral - according to their morality, it simply wasn't.
FemaleUnknownUser 11 hours ago
@FemaleUnknownUser Exactly, but there is something wrong with that isn't there? It shouldn't take a consensus to conclude that slavery is wrong, otherwise it's just arbitrary. If 51% of the population suddenly decided that slavery was acceptable then you would have to agree that it is moral, which is clearly not the case. Slavery is not moral in any way, and we can say that scientifically and unquestionably, regardless of other peoples views
tbennett450 2 hours ago
Christians continue to use this argument that morals is determined by what is the bible... Utter crap
banderson470 1 week ago
"The caller is trying to confuse the hosts! He (caller) needs to stop making excuses for god and trying to make something out of nothing!"
MrWINNSLAW 1 week ago
My head hurts after listening to this ignorant caller! Hope he doesn't breed more like himself.
cycorealm35 1 week ago
This guy is just completely disregarding everything previously said in an attempt to try and throw some half-assed straw man argument against them. I call it the fleeing christian approach.
BroWaffles 1 week ago
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BroWaffles 1 week ago
i wish to be as patient as these guys
Groeneroest 1 week ago
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The Atheist Experience team are a bunch of hypocrites; they don't want reasoned sensible discussion or debate; if you make any relevant point they end up blocking you; clearly they just want the fundie fruitcake calling who will only be aware of this idiotic reductive literalist extreme interpretation of the Bible; this is old hat; debated down the centuries; they offer nothing new, only extremism and become as the people they accuse
no1hoopsman 1 week ago
I know a black preacher that sounds exactly like that caller. He argues just like him. Brings up irrelevant shit, changes shit around, and he will go on and on till you just have to give up cuz you realize you're just wasting time arguing with him cuz he won't STFU.
On a side note, the guy I'm talking about (like I said he preaches at a church) has like 12-14 kids with who knows how many women. I guess he's one of those "christians" that picks and chooses what parts of the bible to follow.
N0GGINB0NKER 1 week ago
@Qteri1 He was scared. Aren't we all?
fredbloggs02 1 week ago
What bothers me is people think if you do good works you get an E ticket to the magic kingdom and if that's your only motivation for doing good then your doing good for all the wrong reasons.
TheDano1947 1 week ago
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Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
queroscene 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
queroscene 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
queroscene 1 week ago
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
queroscene 1 week ago
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@queroscene Do not think so.
elibeth121 1 week ago
"Where does a candle go when it's blown out?"
Checkmate.
cocoalrose 1 week ago
@cocoalrose It goes to heaven of course :D
pizza464132 1 week ago
This guy is defending a book that was probably responsible for his ancestors getting enslaved and forced to accept an inferior status to whites until the 20th century.
MunkyDrag0n 1 week ago
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It is painful listening to this caller, what a fucktard!
nhbiker1961 2 weeks ago
I just keep laughing, they are so sure when they are talking about this god or Jesus ( we don't even know if Jesus was really a real person ). Black people, please stop this foolishness ( we have to do better ), you sound so stupid argueing something on faith & interpretation..
sdacrowe 2 weeks ago
@spiegeltn ur bullshit bible doesnt have nothing on are science books this caller proves it ...
Rizon513 2 weeks ago
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Great page for atheists... go here and see all the contradictions in the Bible and how many times it is wrong. Dare to read. Amazingbibledotorg
spiegeltn 2 weeks ago
@spiegeltn Ok, so I went there, and had a read. What I got from it is that the bible is a book of fables no more truthful than harry potter books, and that the web site you linked to just parrots what the bible says.
daverowbotham 1 week ago
Man this guy is very anoying
Metal1998 2 weeks ago 2
These callers are all the same; entering conversation with no knowledge of how an atheist is made, the function of science and at no point taking in what is said.
WarriorOfWriters 2 weeks ago
@Qteri1 The caller seems to be a black guy from the south.
CaptCamping 2 weeks ago
The only ones who give a shit about whos right and whos wrong are just looking for someone to blame. Fuck that. It really doesnt matter, its who is doing right and whos doing wrong.
freehling420 2 weeks ago
Trying to use logic against a religious zealot...fail.
matias2309 2 weeks ago 29
@matias2309
Being a religious zealot...fail.
Kayyyleb 2 weeks ago
@Qteri1 your great! Love the passion and I agree!
MyDivineTruth 2 weeks ago
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fletchernibiru 2 weeks ago
When I'm arguing with someone who obviously knows way more about the topic than I do, I notice it and I stop fucking arguing. These callers man, these callers...
x513xSparks 2 weeks ago
@x513xSparks lmao.
Dymez187 2 weeks ago
Also moral absolutes and total moral relativism are both extremist bullshit.
Killing is wrong if you murder some random guy for a sandwich, but if you say... shot Breivik in the head in the middle of his killing spree, stopping the carnage, that'd be killing, but it'd be good! So morals are NOT absolute.
Yet their not all relative either. Because female genital mutilation isn't morally right because it's local culture in some area's.
Absolutism and relativism is extremist.
TheSkunkCat 2 weeks ago
@TheSkunkCat
Generally speaking I find moral absolutism the most offensive of the two extremes. And it's typically held by infantile right-wing/religious assholes who don't have the first clue what the fuck their even talking about.
But absolute relativism is kind of annoying too. It's the sort of bullshit I associate with some flavours of libertarians who think they should legally be allowed to have deathmatches if the combatants are okay with it.
TheSkunkCat 2 weeks ago
What's with American christians and their common idea that only faith matters? That's a huge license to be a complete asshole, a philosophy like that. But in addition it's actually COMPLETELY contradictory to what Jesus said (Who called those people hypocrites and pretty much hellbound.)
That's just it. The fundies don't follow their own religion. According to their own bible they're going to hell.
US-style christian fundamentalism is a truly ridiculous flavour of religion ever if you ask me.
TheSkunkCat 2 weeks ago
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King James Version A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Created by God but denying it, calling evil good and good evil, won't even admit God gave us breath!
majorl311 2 weeks ago
This guy sounds like a black baptist preacher that's whacked out on crystal meth! He's trying so hard to make his case that he's rambling incoherently. I couldn't imagine a person trying desperately to convince a neurologist that pure crack cocaine is actually good for your brain. Matt is a preacher without his piece of paper...he knows his religion. Talking fast and loud doesn't make a person right about anything.
Mikedogg13666 2 weeks ago
What I find sometimes amusing and sometimes annoying is how most religious believers don't have a damn clue about thier own religion. they have a Holy Book, and NOTHING else matters. Including writings and admissions by thier own historical religious leaders. 90% of Christians do not know that the Bible was voted on at the third council of Trent and they voted OUT a ton of things that up until that time were considered 'Gospel'. So much for the word of Gog.
TheThunderduck 2 weeks ago
actually for once ..the panel did a very poor job of answering his points. The answer is that wanting a 'god' basis for morality doesnt make that 'god' real. Existence makes existence true..nothing else. That point must be made before their arguments on morality make sense.
funcpl2741054 3 weeks ago
the caller makes some good, but badly articulated points
Diosukekun 3 weeks ago
why is it that one can tell somebody's skin color over the phone just by listening?
Meskiagkasher 3 weeks ago
only a sith deals in absolutes
TheDevindevine 3 weeks ago
This dude sounds like Leon from Curb Your Enthusiasm.
Antiks72 3 weeks ago
thats a farytale for grownups LOL
tjald84 3 weeks ago
Morality is opinions, why do some people find that so hard to grasp? Simpletons like to look at really obvious things like paedophillia and say "this is obviously wrong therefore morality is objective" when it's just that almost everyone has the same opinion.
mahmoudyzadeh 3 weeks ago
There is no such thing as absolute right or wrong. If basic human rights are observed everything else is trivial
toelesshoe 3 weeks ago
Absolute morality is another myth. These people just don't get it....which is astounding since the morality in their bible is so sickening and different from our own.
VesusSheist 3 weeks ago
how can any one who went to college to study God, claim to be an atheist ??? it is like a chinaman disbelieving he is chinese and now claims to be indian.... very pathetic!!!!!
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 So if i went to school and studied music, am i automatically a musician?
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme I don't know ./ it is your logical reasoning not mine... but if you KNOW what music is, how can you unknow what music is..?? matt is not an atheist but a disobediant believer.. no where in the difinition of atheist is it ever stated "a person who once believed ."
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 I was raised a christian myself, I "believed" as much as the next person. I can very comfortably say now that i am an agnostic atheist. Having once believed has nothing to do with it. I initially believed santa claus was real. I don't anymore. People learn things, people change the views and perspective.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
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@zdunichme call yourself what you want. by knowledge alone you can not possibly be - athest. "Having once believed has nothing to do with it." really and where is this rule or law written ,,no where but in your mind. "people change the views and perspective." this is true and this alone does not change the person or person's knowledge.... you are a disobediant believer.. you are past being any sort of the defined word of atheist, through your sheer knowledge of God.... unkow is impossible.
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme you can cry, you are an alien to the world all you want, you are born with secular knowledge you will die with secular knowledge. Having Knowledge of God, you will continue to apply this through out your life and you do so in hypocracy. How can you even believe to separate the knowledge of God and keep it from ever being concieve as a thought or action ..YOU CAN NOT !! I rest my case !!
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 um what? most of that doesn't make sense and/or isnt true. Although i agree that "unknowing" something is impossible, unless you forget it of course. All of that is beside the point anyway. Pplz dont just start attacking, or im done, youve attacked enough ppl.
zdunichme 3 weeks ago
"Aethism is lack of belief in a god... " matt and his utter BS, he peddles... to abstain from the use of "believe or not believe", as it demonstrates a condition already set forth in a book you detest... how pathetic really. being that matt grew in a religious home and went to a college, for religion will never constitue him as an athesit, no matter how much BS he shovels... matt's life will always encapsulate religion in some form or another and the worst thing is matt knows it !!
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
You know, despite my being an atheist, I actually think the guy on the phone made a good point about an absolute right and wrong. Without an absolute determination of what constitutes a right and wrong action, there is no way one can say that say...the Holocaust was a bad thing because so many Germans didn't think it was wrong at the time. To them I say it is blatantly obvious that the Holocaust was a bad thing, regardless of what culture you come from.
MrMadmanbob 4 weeks ago
@MrMadmanbo your not taking the entire population into consideration.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme I really don't know what you mean by that comment. Please elaborate so that we may rectify any confusion between our views.
MrMadmanbob 4 weeks ago
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@MrMadmanbob "Without an absolute determination of what constitutes a right and wrong action,there is no way one can say that say...the Holocaust was a bad thing because so many Germans didn't think it was wrong at the time." Well, its not just the germans that matter in the context. If we are going to assume that what is morally right and wrong based on how the mass population feels, you have to take the mass population into consideration.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@MrMadmanbob for example, you cant just ask the germans if the holocaust was bad, you have to ask everyone on the planet.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme The form of morality you are describing is both incredibly impractical and ineffective. You imply that one must ask the entire world before making any kind of moral decision. How exactly would one do that? You can't simply cast a majority vote to see if something is wrong. In medieval times, women were treated as inferiors to men pretty much throughout the globe. By your logic, that subjugation was ok because it was globally accepted. Right and wrong are not subject to opinion.
MrMadmanbob 4 weeks ago
@MrMadmanbob I did not say one person has to physically go and ask everyone what they think. Also you cant expect the human race in the past equally moral to now, we were a younger, stupider, less moral race that didnt think about much other than surviving. Now since we can easily survive day to day, things have changed. In addition, it wouldn't be a "vote". One can tell if something is morally wrong or right by the consequences, and reactions.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme My point is that in order to say that the people in the past were immoral, you need to first define an absolute standard of what constitutes moral and immoral actions (not specifically what those actions are, but what it is about those actions that make them immoral); it can't just be opinions. Your last comment about consequences would be a good example of an objective moral standard.
MrMadmanbob 4 weeks ago
@MrMadmanbob My last comment is everything. Nothing more needs to be said. "One can tell if something is morally wrong or right by the consequences, and reactions."
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@MrMadmanbob this is where taking everyone on the planet, comes into play.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
he keeps confusing right or wrong with correct and incorrect. I wonder why Matt pointed this out right in the beginning then let him repeat it over and over again. Did I miss something?
InfinityDz 1 month ago
omg I can't watch this anymore.... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
bttrflykiss7701 1 month ago
@bttrflykiss7701 why not
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme its interesting.
zdunichme 4 weeks ago
@zdunichme So ANNOYING!
bttrflykiss7701 4 weeks ago
spiritual revelation comes when we stop centering on the id or the ego, which gives one a more universal conciousness which help one see life for what it realy is
lordofthecoils 1 month ago
i do think that morals can be grounded in logic and reasion and that is the objective morals - not "god"
shedininja001 1 month ago
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The Atheist Experience = nothing but bullshit from guys, THAT ugly girls would not screw if they were drunk and dying LOL
Falconn003 1 month ago
love how these post of mine suddenly disapear ... what cowards
Falconn003 1 month ago
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Falconn003 1 month ago
The guy in the fone is sooo.....fucking stupid.
livluv4muisc 1 month ago
@livluv4muisc in the phone is it. not ON the PHONE !
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 lol no comment at the stupidity.
livluv4muisc 1 month ago
@livluv4muisc that's it... a smirk and your satisfied not answer your foudational doctrines... what kind of an atheist are you ???
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 lol what? if ur ranting me cause i spelled "in" when i obviously ment "on" then u have problems. the error is obvious on what i ment.
livluv4muisc 1 month ago
@livluv4muisc 1st calm down and grab ya a tube of vagisil... i only screwing with you...as must often is the case with you types is the gramerical errors you love to point out of others on a net were people type using BFF, LOL..LMAO...etc.. so apply ASS needed and please don't get it in your eyes or mouth. ><
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 lol u make no sense. i don't know where your even going with this.
livluv4muisc 4 weeks ago
@livluv4muisc of course you don't and guess what..i will not even make fun of you ... for not knowing !
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 i understand your point. you were trolling. i'm basically questioning why you are still replying to me, when i'm making it very obvious i would like to drop the conversation. so once again i guess ill say it again, you don't make sense.
livluv4muisc 4 weeks ago
@livluv4muisc i will drop responding to you. cause obviously you like your little bubbled world... but one last thing how can someone state " i understand your point" and in the very same post reply "you don't make sense" what is this to show off for your comrads here ??? it is better to drop the conversation.. so little brain cells left
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 idk how u think i live in a "bubbled world" cause i don't want to argue with u about me saying "in" instead of "on". your very dumb if u cannot understand how one can understand someones point but it still cannot make sense. for example(to give u a better idea on what i mean by, i understand u, but you do not make sense)
livluv4muisc 4 weeks ago
@livluv4muisc Hey stupid , did you not say drop the conversation . and yet you still persist....
only you understand something that does not make sense ... yeah right .. i call that a moron ... ans the world would too.
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 lol you should read more. i cant take someone who doesn't read and analyze words very well seriously. i would drop this conversation but some people need to know when there wrong. for ex. christian's
livluv4muisc 3 weeks ago
@Falconn003 you explain to me that killing people is what u like to do, and then u expalin y u like killing people. i understand your point, but you don't make sense, it doesnt make sense that u made what your saying senseable. at all.
livluv4muisc 4 weeks ago
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Falconn003 4 weeks ago
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@livluv4muisc- "you explain to me that killing people is what u like to do' I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING.. i can see why drop it, your off your freackin meds.... so go ahead and listen to your pink elephant friend .. NOW THIS IS INCOHERENT >>>> "it doesnt make sense that u made what your saying senseable"
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
"Aethism is lack of belief in a god... " Why then, do all so called aethist indulge in: Love, Caring, Hope, Civility Laws, Justice, Goodness, Marriage, Cleanliness, Knowledge...etc...
And still claim with impunity thier unblief in God, yet still hold unto the virtues and traits that originated from a belief in God... ???? These so called aethist are (insert word) !.
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 Were you dropped on your head when you were a baby?
Casper3417 1 month ago 6
@Casper3417 is that all you got attacks... why not ask yourself were those traits and atributes concerning all forms of Love originated from... and if you beleive that stupid notion of chemical reaction, try selling that theory in your wedding vows... like it or not the only true from of aethism on this planets are animals, insects, flora and protozoa but of course you think you are an animal... explains alot really.
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 So you think "love" can only come from a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully? You are a moron, go crawl back under your rock and take your "holy" book with you
Casper3417 1 month ago
@Casper3417 excuse , but what do you got to show that God is a " petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully?" what proof do you have really. not a damn thing but your own deprived logic. and who can argue with a lunatic such as yourself ? only a moron speaks so bodly amongst his peers..
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 you need proof that your god is a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully? Well then look no further then the very bible you hold so dear. dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot(dot)com/2008/12/richard-dawkins-god-of-old-testament.html
Casper3417 1 month ago
@Casper3417 I need no such proof, It is your disclaimer not mine..argue your own beleifs !!
The bible is errantly read wrong .. and your post just proves that very fact... that you are indeed ignorant of the Spirit within the words... but go ahead with your magical mockery.. it is typical of ignorance. dick dawkins has no clue what the OT is about . not one damn clue... and so he makes crap up to peddle his BS with impunity, which of course you buy into with no hessitation.
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Casper3417 right coming from a porno freak you sure got credibility ...
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 Is that all you got is to call me a porn freak? That only enforces my thought that you were dropped on you head as a baby
Casper3417 1 month ago
@Casper3417 well now that your freakish prono is out of the closet do you feel a wee bit better.... if i were drooped as you say. i would be equal in your stupidity and tantrums... but of course i am not.. ><
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 LOL you are either completely retarded or a troll, perhaps a combination of both.
Casper3417 1 month ago
@Casper3417 SO that is all you got , nothing but a teenage testosterone tantrum ... do the world a favor castrate yourself... don't think about just do it ... and let chance take it's course. really :)
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 go fuck yourself you stupid pathetic piece of shit bible fucking troll
Casper3417 4 weeks ago
@Casper3417 your a lost cause (no pun intended ) and that was very easy ... especaily with a weak disposition.... :DD
Falconn003 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 you call me a lost cause because I do not believe in your sick pathetic god? I think you are a lost cause because you do. Do you still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny? Your nothing but a pathetic troll, go die in a fire.
Casper3417 4 weeks ago
@Falconn003 you are a confused individual
rickross22 1 month ago
@rickross22 so instead of actually trying to debate this you resort to sum your ideaology in this manner,,, confusing ,, must be nice living in your own bubbled world...
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 Because im not about to write a whole essay on here, go read a book other than the bible. Study psychology man, or watch more of these atheist experience video, you'll get your answer.
rickross22 1 month ago
@rickross22 so your beliefs stem from out of essays...?? opinions ..?? and because you beleive in them , they magicaly become factual...
My mind does not work this way... psychology is a waste of time in MHO. these atheist experience are not experiances at all, they are nothing but snubs from ignorant people who make shit up .. nothing more... i do not need an atheist experiance, I would experiance it for myself. and not follow like a brain dead lemming.
Falconn003 1 month ago
@rickross22 you would not write an essay, but you would demand one from me... how unequaly yoked
Falconn003 1 month ago
@Falconn003 hhuuuuhh? How are they ignorant? And if you are asking "Why people think a certain way"(the whole right/wrong/correct/incorrect). How can you then say psychology is a waste of time? is the only thing you find factual the bible and your beliefs(opinions)?
rickross22 1 month ago
@rickross22 thinking a certain way . excludes all logic that would other wise hinder that thinking a certain way is parrelle with ignorance... near stupidity.
psychology if practical would have nearly all the world label as ADHA.. or ADD or the new one ..ADULT ATENTION DEFIECIT DISORDER... again a waste of time. what happen to the day dreamer,,, they are on meds now.. meds from a company subsidize by the Gov, and with lobbist that would make you blush.
Falconn003 1 month ago
right(correct) AND wrong(bad)... ???? If you had stated right(correct) AND wrong(incorrect) or right(good) AND wrong (bad) you might have an argument and a point; the OP's statement sums up incoherently....
Falconn003 1 month ago
LolZ!! the candle!!! was fking hilarious!!
iTrollThis 1 month ago
If you truly are an asshole YOUR gonna do ass things D: ?
iTrollThis 1 month ago
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CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL. THEY SHOULD FORGIVE SATAN. YOU CHRISTIANS COMMIT A LOT OF SINS(WHATEVER THAT MEANS) BUT SATAN MESSES UP ONCE, AND IS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN.
THAT SUCKS FOR SATAN. FORGIVE HIM. SHOW SATAN SOME LOVE AND TREAT HIM LIKE A BROTHER AND HE MIGHT CHANGE HIS WAYS OR BECOME A BETTER GOD.
ekramonology 1 month ago
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ekramonology 1 month ago
I think I can hear this guy's brain caving in on it's self, when his trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong in a world without god.
ikosabre 1 month ago
You gotta flip that shit Larry! Man this guy sounds like Leon from curb
legendari8031 1 month ago
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself
that's called the golden rule y'all and it's pretty much the only moral rule
and it's from Confusius (around 500 BC)
zaxxxon 1 month ago
the Christian dude did a better job than 90% of the other Christian callers, that much is true.
knowone11111 1 month ago
@knowone11111 Wow...really? Christians are setting a very low standard!
funkydanieluk 1 month ago
This caller is a master. Hysterical. Jumping all over the place. He's hopped up on something. The hosts showed some major self-control to not lose it with him. Very funny.
MatheusLegenda 1 month ago
This caller is pretty dense and hyped up and angry though. It's embarrassing.
MatheusLegenda 1 month ago
How could Matt be so dense to not understand this man's initial question? So sad the initial stand-off demeanor.
MatheusLegenda 1 month ago
How do you do it Matt! I get angry with them after third stupid question and want to punch them in the face...
asifnayem 1 month ago
its funny how he does'nt like how "none christians interpret the bible"...
yes we dont spin it, we read it as it is.
and i loved how he thought it was a fairytale that "when you die you're dead" lol
the irony was deathly!
DemoraX 1 month ago 2
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thumbs up if you fucked a pastor's daughter and came in her father's bible.
youthank8 1 month ago
I'm an atheist and I think there is such a thing as absolute morality
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 well obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't have disagreements
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
Disagreements in morality doesn't mean that "morality is personal", just like the fact that disagreements in science doesn't mean that "nature is personal". If 2 people disagree it just means one of them is probably wrong (maybe both of them are wrong).
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 right and wrong have no meaning without a human authority. absolute morality assumes a third party has the 'correct' answer.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
of course right and wrong has a meaning without authority. if you are on a desert island with a man/woman, there is no authority there but it will still be wrong to rape her. it is wrong to rape not because "someone says", but because the woman suffers from it.
i agree that absolute morality assumes there is a correct answer. but absolute morality doesn't need a "third party".
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 assuming that every single living creature is capable of such cruelty (highly intelligent mammals included), is it really surprising? no predator can live if they don't kill their prey. its cruel to you, but you cannot prove they don't find it cruel, unless a third party confirms they do.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
I don't care if they "find it cruel" or not, because moral isn't about opinions - it is absolute. It doesn't matter what the predator think about his action, it is only matter if the action is justified or not.
You don't need a third party to have a right answer. Even if you can't prove a specific answer is right, there is one right answer. Lets say there was a murder. either Tim or Ben did it. lets say you don't have proofs. no. it just mean *you* can't find it
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 equating morality with science implies morality has a binary outcome which has an observable output. the burden of proof is on the moral objectivist to provide a repeatable method to prove morality is the same everywhere. the argument falls down pretty quickly from there and its clear to see this is impossible to prove.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
I didn't say morality is like science, I said that your argument that "if people disagree then the answer must be subjective" is nonsense, and I gave science as an example to show your argument is invalid.
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 fair point, but you still ignore my point that there are no existing metrics to base morality on. in order to be an atheist, it would have to be a tangible, quantifiable thing when in reality its likely an evolved set of responses from tightly cultural communities throughout our evolutionary system, that got 'watered' out into a generally accepted medium.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
There is a right answer, and usually it's not hard finding it. You just need to be objective (=not choosing an answer just because it suits you), have logic on your side (not being plain dumb) to get to the correct answer.
arguing that more is subjective just make people to not make an effort trying to get the question right, cause "it's a matter of perspective anyway, so why bother trying to be correct? lets just go with what is in our self interest."
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 its a matter of perspective, but that doesn't mean we don't stand by our judgment on convictions as a collective. we have a society that we are strongly attached to, we feel has worked for the better of all of us, and as such do not wish to see anyone suffer the consequences of antisocial behavior.
your argument misleadingly equates whether or not the crime was committed (a tangible concept) and whether or not it was right. these are two very different things.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
My argument says that if the authorities accept the "crime" then it's not a crime at all, according to your logic.
From your logic the only problem with Hitler is that he wasn't strong enough to enforce his will. If he would have won, then by your logic he was right (according to the subjective morality line of thinking), right?
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 Godwin's law aside, he wouldn't have been right by me, nor anyone I know. but how can you honestly say an objective morality could exist were he got his way and got an aryan utopia over the course of generations? its totally reprehensible to me and you, but would you honestly think a society would care over a few generations, if they are happier? Think about how long it took for us to end slavery. All you have are your convictions, or those of a collective
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef Godwin's law is a stupid law. The holocaust is a really good example in discussions, especially in morals.
not enough place here, i'll post my answer here
scribd.com/doc/78855249/Untitled
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 to be honest i'm kind of bored of this discussion now.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef same here
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@moralreef
Morality is a philosophical question, thus it need not be built on tangible things. It should be built on logic.
tombenarye1234 1 month ago
@tombenarye1234 should it? the prime argument of modern atheism is that more realms of abstract thinking should be exposed to the scientific method. considering, in its simplest form, it has applied in all societies that have existed, I would say very much that morality deserves the same scrutiny the scientific method has applied to, say, religion.
moralreef 1 month ago
@moralreef
Facts can show what has happened or what will happen. they can tell us what *should* happen. Whether god exist is a matter of fact (he either exists or not). We can check if that's probable or not, like any other hypothesis. moral isn't like this. It's not a matter of fact. but rather a matter of desiring a better, objective world. You can't answer the question "what should happen" by showing facts. it makes no sense.
tombenarye1234 1 month ago