better to live in a country where majority opinion is visible through policy than otherwise. If muslims are living in a country where the majority of people aren't entirely comfortable with islam, then it's best that they and everyone else know the score. unexpressed undercurrents of social disharmony are best vented than left to explode.
Switzerland should be about swiss army knives, nice watches and perfrection. Place the minerettes in the places where they belong. Amongst the poverty, desperation and coruption of Islam.
@bloodandwinearered I don't know what religion you are but you do sound arrogant. You associate poverty with Islam, yes in this life we are poor but after life we shall inherit paradise. You should listen to the Message of Jesus(pbuh) Blessed are the poor...indeed...God is the greatest.
@blaqsoldier I have traveled through 54 countries and love the diversity in the world. I do not want it to be all one way. I don't want burkas in France or Bikini's in Arabia, it would ruin both places. I am not bothered by poverty if the people are poor, but healthy and happy as in the Philippines. What is in Indonesia is something else altogether. It is life gone wrong. People are sick and puss flows from their eyes and open sores on their bodies. Let's leave Switzerland as it is.
@bloodandwinearered U are one fucked up guy u go from being extremely prejudice to trying to play it Mr. nice guy and shit i ain't buyin it and anyone else who is capable of thinking shouldn't either, i bet u haven't left the trailer park
i m Swiss. many young people are socialists do not understand a shit. in schools we are brainwashed against America and in favor of communist policies.
@Defcom96 In my channel I can write the Congo. is my freedom. But I am Swiss and I repeat my thought here is full of socialist anti-American, anti-nationalist, everything that one says in freedom "racist" you speak your own mind "you are racist" everything is done for their program, for the first the left is guilty of this.
Sharia law is an evil institution. It is as evil as the prophet the muslims venerate. Sorry people, I never use a CAPITAL letter if I'm referring to a false religion or cult ie: the cult of islam. I hope the Dutch cartoonists immortalize the false prophet with a minaret shoved up his butt and him loving it. And some idiot a few pages ahead claims that islam is the most progressive religion this world has ever known? That is la la land, my friends or if you are islamic, my fiends. They can LMBTMF
Minarets will impose sharia law? How old is this guy? sounds like something a child would say. There is a huge percentage of Christian Arabs in the middle east and if you saw the churches you would laugh at the churches in Europe. I suggest the Swiss to visit Islamic country to learn more. Also Minarets are not in Sharia law because its not obligatory. They started to build them so Muslims would find the mosques and stop entering churches by mistake. Read more, you are a MP for Christ' sake.
why can't churches be constructed in arab countries? and these fuckin hypocrites dare to blame another nation for not catering to islam which is a religion that disrespects all religions...islam is the great curse and anything but islam is the cure...why do people tolerate islam? everyone knows the trouble around the globe since 9/11 is because of islam...they strike now in russia...let the world unite against islam...islam is not a worthy religion...it must be destroyed...
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Yeah, God obviously favors you Muslims - that's why you've been getting humiliated and your asses kicked over and over again in conflicts with the infidels and live in shitholes that are so backwards that millions of you would rather be amongst kuffar here than their own brothers at home! It's clearly Allah's will that Muslims be the dirt on everyone else's boots and live in the worst, most barren places on earth.
@HalalKafir I pity your comment. It shows YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. THE MUSLIMS RULED THE WORLD FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. THEIR EMPIRE WAS MIGHTY AND VAST. MUSLIMS WERE THE FIRST TO DO CATARACT SURGERY. THE EUROPEANS USED TO VISIT THE MUSLIMS TO LEARN ABOUT ALGEBRA, ARCHITECTURE, ARTS, MEDICINE, EVEN CLEANLINESS. WHEN EUROPEANS DIDNT SHOWER, MUSLIMS WERE CLEANING THEMSELVES 5 TIMES A DAY. WHEN WE GREW ARROGANT AND TURNED AWAY FROM THE CORE OF OUR RELIGION. GOD FLIPPED THE TABLES. THE WEST THEN RULED.
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD It wasn't arrogance toward Allah that made you the West's bitch - the West simply never stopped progressing once they came out of their caves and got their shit together. Europeans learned much from others, incl. the Arab world, and improved upon it and went full tilt with the knowledge they acquired and developed (to the detriment of other peoples around the world, unfortunately). Muslims became victims of their own religion which hinders progress - and you still are.
@HalalKafir THE WEST GOT NOTHING ON THE ARABS IF THEY BUT UNITE. THEY WILL IN FORESEEABLE FUTURE. LAST TIME I CHECKED FROM 1980'S TILL TODAY THE ARABS HAD HELD TIGHT THE OIL. THAT'S WHY THEY ATTACKED KUWAIT AND IRAQ AND ALL. UNLESS THE WEST FINDS ANOTHER SOURCE OF POWER OTHER THAN OIL. WE GOT THEM BY THE BALLS. ISLAM NEVER HINDERERS PROGRESS. IT RATHER PREACHES PROGRESS AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT CONFLICT SHARIA. TRUE THAT EUROPEANS GOT IT TOGETHER. WE HAD OUR TIME. SOON WE WILL CATCH UP.
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD If you expect Arab unity anytime between now and the end of time - good luck! Sunnis can't even get along with Shias. The West already has the technology to break away from Arab oil to a large degree but it's being suppressed because it would heavily undercut the profits of some very powerful people. Islam does not preach progress - it preaches the exact opposite. That's why most Muslims live in 3rd World dictatorships with few rights and little freedom. Islam = prison.
@HalalKafir Shias are found on very few places. Mostly in Iran. Most Shias under sharia are not considered Muslims. The majority of Muslims from the Arab world will unite when necessity arrives. And yes the West got the technology to break away from oil. However that is not to occur perhaps in a few years ahead. We will see. ISLAM WAS THE MOST PROGRESSIVE RELIGION THE WORLD.
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD "FREEDOM" TO THE WEST MEANS ACCEPTANCE OF BEHAVIOURS LIKE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. GAYS MARRIAGES. ALLOWANCE OF ALCOHOL AND DRUGS. DISBELIEF. LACK OF MORALS AND MANNERS, ETHICS. THE WEST IS ONE OF THE MOST IMMORAL SOCIETIES I HAVE EVER COME ACROSS. HIGHEST SUICIDE RATES. IS A DISASTER. HIGHEST DIVORCE RATE. HIGHEST RAPE RATES. HIGHEST VIOLENCE RATES. JAILS FULLED WITH PRISONERS THAT THE SYSTEM ITSELF CANNOT REFORM. HIGHEST IN THE SPREAD OF AIDS. WE ALL KNOW THAT AND SEEN IT.
@HalalKafir ISLAM IS THE MOST PROGRSSIVE RELIGION IN THE WORLD. WHEN ISLAM CAME WOMEN WERE BEEN BURIED ALIVE IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA. EUROPE AND ASIA AND AFRICA GAVE WOMEN NO RIGHTS. THEY WERENT EVEN CONSIDERED HUMANS. ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT GAVE PROGRESS TO THE ARABS. READ. ISLAM GAVE WOMEN THE RIGHTS TO MARRY, TO CHOOSE. IT CHANGED THE EVERYDAY LIFE OF THE ARABS. ECONOMICS, MATH, ASTRONOMY. YOU NAME IT.
@HalalKafir FIRST LETS BEGIN SAYING THAT MANY MUSLIM COUNTRIES PRACTICE MORE CULTURE THAN SHARIA ITSELF. OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE THE SOCIO-ECONOMICAL ISSUES THEY ARE FACING EVERYDAY. IF YOU READ BACK TO WHEN THE MUSLIMS HAD SUCCESS AT ITS PEAK YOU WILL FIND THAT THIS WAS DUE TO THE PROPER PRACTICE OF ISLAM. WHEN CORRUPTION CAME TO THE MUSLIMS SOON THEY MET THEIR DOWNFALL. ISLAM GAVE US FREEDOM. TO THE WEST FREEDOM MEANS ACCEPTANCE AMONG SOCIETY OF "IMMORAL" BEHAVIOURS. SHARIA CONDEMNS SUCH.
@HalalKafir SHARIA WILL NEVER TOLERATE WHAT YOU CALL "FREEDOM". YOUR "FREEDOM" IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS THE WEST IS FACING. YOUR "FREEDOM" IS THE REASON WHY MANY FAMILIES CONSIST OF A SINGLE PARENT. YOUR "FREEDOM" IS NOTHING BUT FOLLOWING VAIN DESIRES THAT LEAD TO GREATER SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND FURTHER INJUSTICE. JUST READ. PEACE OUT.
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Sharia is the worst form of oppression in any religion, period. I could care less what Sharia tolerates - it's totally irrelevant to anyone in the West. We ALL will GLADLY take our freedom with all its imperfections over your perfect religious fascism any day and twice on Sunday. The reason why Islam will never EVER rule the world is because it is anti-freedom to the core and people that have experienced freedom and choice will never EVER give it up! To the death!
@HalalKafir You speak of Sharia but you know nothing of what sharia consist of. THEREFORE YOU DONT KNOW THE FREEDOMS AND RIGHTS IT GIVES. AND OF COURSE YOU RATHER STAY IGNORANT. WHAT YOU SPEAK OF IS CULTURE. AS A FORMER ROMAN CATHOLIC I WOULD HAD NEVER CONVERT TO ISLAM UNLESS I KNEW THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOM IT GIVES ME. IS FUNNY HOW THE CONVERTS KEEP COMING. IM SURE SHARIA GIVES PLENTY OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOM. KEEP THE WEST. WE GOT OUR HOLLY LAND. WE DONT WANT YOURS. KEEP YOUR ROTTEN SOCIETY.
@HalalKafir Listen. DONT SPEAK OF SOMETHING YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF. HOW CAN YOU TALK OF SHARIA WHEN YOU DONT KNOW IT? WHILE EUROPE CONSIDERED WOMEN AND BLACKS INSECTS AND HAD NO TOLERANCE FOR JEWS. ISLAM GAVE WOMEN AND BLACKS AND JEWS HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM. WHY YOU THINK MOST OF AFRICA IS MUSLIM? WHY YOU THINK ISLAM GREW SO QUICK IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA. ISLAM UNITED PEOPLE OF ALL COLOR. BY FAR EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS WERE THE MOST RACIST AND ANTI-SEMETIC PEOPLE THROUGHOUT HISTORY.
@HalalKafir BEFORE YOU SPEAK OF SHARIA BRING SOME SOLID FACTS TO THE TABLE. IM SURE YOU KNOW NOTHING OF SHARIA. SO SHUSH. KEEP QUIET. WHILE THE WEST WAS LYNCHING NEGROES AND CONSIDERED WOMEN OBJECTS. WE THE MUSLIMS GAVE THEM HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS OVER 1400 YEARS BEFORE YOU DID. LIKE MALCOM X SAID, "ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION FOR THE BLACK MAN AND THE OPPRESSED". SO SHUSH. KEEP QUIET. YOU GOT NO KNOWLEDGE OF SHARIA. DONT COMPARE CULTURE WITH ISLAM. READ. READ. BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD I know more about Sharia Law than you think. I compare culture to Islam because culture in Islamo-Fascistan is influenced by Islam more than anything else. Islam is the dominant dark force in those countries - places where people can still be accused and executed as witches, stoned as adulterers, mangled for stealing, or tortured and killed simply for loving someone of the wrong gender - all based on the Sharia. Human rights my ass! Lying 4 Allah will get U nowhere!
@HalalKafir IS THAT WHAT YOU KNOW OF SHARIA. STILL KNOW NOTHING OF SHARIA. LET ME GUESS. YOU READ THAT IN WIKIPEDIA. HOW MANY PHD'S YOU GOT ON SHARIA? ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING OF SHARIA. YOU DONT KNOW THE RULINGS UNDER THOSE EXECUTIONS TAKE PLACE. THERE HAS TO BE WITNESSES, EVIDENCE, TRIALS UNDER COURT. YOU STILL IGNORANT. THERE IS NO MUSLIM COUNTRY TODAY THAT IS PRACTICING SHARIA ACCORDINGLY AND PROPERLY TO THE QURAN. NOT EVEN SAUDI ARABIA. SO SHUSH. YOU STILL SPEAK IGNORANTLY.
@HalalKafir IF ISLAM IS ANTI-FREEDOM TO THE CORE THEN TELL ME WHY IS AFRICA MOSTLY MUSLIM?. THEN TELL ME WHY THE MONGOLS EMBRACED ISLAM AND LEFT THEIR SAVAGE AND GRUESOME WAYS?. THEN TELL ME WHY ISLAM WAS SPREAD AS FAR AS CHINA?. WHERE TODAY THOUSANDS STILL PRACTICE IT. IF IT IS ANTI-FREEDOM THEN TELL ME WHY ISLAM IS GROWING IN VENEZUELA, MEXICO, CHILE, BRAZIL. SHUSH. YOU BLINDED BY YOUR HATRED AND IGNORANCE. READ MAN. JUST READ RELIABLE SOURCES. SO YOU DONT ACT A FOOL. I DONT SEE THEM OPPRESSED
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD You're not oppressed because you're lucky to live in Canada and not one of those Islamic dictatorships where you think people have freedom. You know that's all BS because EVERY YEAR 10s of 1000s of people from Turkey to Africa leave those 'bastions of Islamic freedom' for Europa and America while none of us go live there. Who is being foolish here? Islam gaining followers in certain countries doesn't mean shit - it simply confirms that there are stupid people everywhere!
@HalalKafir ISLAMIC DICATADORSHIP? YOU KNOW NOTHING OF ISLAM. LEADERS ARE CHOSEN BY CONSENSUS OF MAJORITY. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ISLAMIC DICTATORSHIP. THERE MAY BE DICTATORSHIP BUT NOT ISLAMIC. BECAUSE THE RULINGS OF SHARIA IMPOSE SUCH. AGAIN YOU SHOW LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SHARIA. GOD IS WITH THE OPPRESSED. NO ARAB OR "MUSLIM" COUNTRY TODAY FOLLOWS SHARIA OR ISLAM ACCORDINGLY TO QURAN AND SUNNAH. THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE CONSIDERED A MUSLIM STATE. THEREFORE THERE IS NO ISLAMIC DICTATORSHIP.
@HalalKafir THERE IS DICTADORSHIP IN SOME "MUSLIM" COUNTRIES. HOWEVER THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED "ISLAMIC" BECAUSE THEY DO NOT FOLLOW SHARIA RULING ACCORDING TO QURAN OR SUNNAH. RATHER THEY BEND IT TO THEIR WILL. TURKEY IS NOT CONSIDERED A "MUSLIM" COUNTRY. THE PEOPLE THAT LEAVE TO EUROPE OR AMERICA IS BECAUSE EDUCATION OR WAR. THE WEST EDUCATION SYSTEM IS VALUED ALL OVER THE WORLD THATS WHY THEY GO THERE. NOT BECAUSE OPPRESSION.
@HalalKafirI WILL NOT DEBATE MORE CAUSE SOMEONE LIKE YOU IS OBSTRUCTED BY THEIR BLIND HATE. KEEP HATING. I KNOW THAT TODAY I WOULD NOT BE AMONG THE THOUSANDS OF CONVERTS IF IT WASNT FOR THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS THAT ISLAM GIVES ME. IM SURE THE PEOPLE I MET, THE THOUSANDS OF CONVERTS I SEEN FEEL THE SAME. IM A LIVING PROOF. ENOUGH PROOF TO THOUSANDS. NO WORRIES. THE STUPID PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO FILL 1.3 BILLION MUSLIMS. SEE FOR YOURSELF. THIS RELIGION WILL CONTINUE TO GROW. IM OUT. PEACE.
@HalalKafir before you say anything read. read history. and you would find that it has not been until a few years that the muslims are been humiliated. That occurred right after the Ottoman empire was dissolve. IF THE MUSLIMS IN THE ARAB WORLD UNITE THEY WOULD REGAIN THEIR HONOR. THE WEST WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST . THE ARABS ARE FILTHY RICH IN OIL AND OTHER VALUABLE SOURCES. CURRENTLY KUWAIT HOLDS THE MOST VALUED CURRENCY IN THE WORLD. KUWAIT DINAR.
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Your oil is only valuable because everyone in the world buys it. If nobody buys your oil - there goes your wealth. Sadly, the world could probably be off the Arab oil teet already and exist on alternate sources of NRG if it wasn't for the oil cartels that don't want that to happen. Frankly, I cannot wait for that day to come - because it will come someday - so the West can disengage from the anti-democratic Arab/Muslim world to a much larger degree and move on.
@WilhelmHelmut : Although I agree with you I think that what is going on in Saudi-Arabia is non of our business. However, Saudi financing of radical clerics is and therefore I want to see only clerics preaching that have the respective citizenship and a state licency to preach.
3:51 BULLSHIT there is no Freedom of Religion under ISLAM!!!!!go see how the Turkish Christian are treated,they are a tiny Minority and are Persecuted ,Christians hide there Faith in turkey!!
@m00se321 LEARN AND READ MY FRIEND. BEFORE YOU SPEAK. IF YOU LOOK INTO THE GREATEST LEADERS OF ISLAM YOU WILL FIND THAT ISLAM TAUGHT US TO BE TOLERANT TOWARDS JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS LONG AS THEY AGREED TO RESPECT AND FOLLOWED SHARIA WITHIN OR STATE. THEY COULD ALWAYS LEAVE. YOU CAN ONLY BLAME THE LEADERS AND THOSE WHO LACK PROPER SOUND ISLAMIC KNOWLEDGE AND ARE ACTING AGAINST THE RULINGS OF ISLAM. TURKEY LACKS PROPER ISLAMIC RULING AND LEADERS. SO DONT BLAME ISLAM. BLAME THE LEADERS.
There is no Freedom, of Religion under ISLAM,,just visit Saudia Arabia,Libya,Iran ,Egpyt,Sudan,Pakistan,the Christians are hiding!!And Egypt only allows so many Churchs to be built ,thats afact!!
"A few years ago...", 39 years ago to be precise... well ok, that is a stain on the Swiss democracy... But otherwise it sure is outstanding and unique in the world!
And of course people can make wiser and less wise decisions...
The last vote certainly had several reasons...
Schluer is a jerk, no question... but don't lump together the people of a hole nation...!
Thanks for a little more ingenious comments in the future...
swiss brag about patience and tolerance but just look at all the aggressive swiss replies below, real 2 faced hypocrites. I guess that's neutral contradiction.
Muslim immigrants went to swiss hence they wanted to escape islamic repression in their own coutry, that repression made them very poor society, undeveloped and uneducated. Now they want that same Islam in country where they escaped, and laws which go with islam mentality. It is very dubiose situation.
moslems can pack up their fuckin' islam in all the western countries, and fuck the hell off back to mecca where they belong. Who the hell left the cage door open and let them escape?
Largest religion minority is a leftist designation. Don't let them fool you. islam is not the largest religeous minority, it is the biggest religeous menace!!!
There is no integration into any western society by muslims,none what so ever because your so called religion does not allow for you to mix with none believers.You are all liars and the Swiss have seen you for what you are,LIARS.
Our civilised culture does not require the likes of islam for it is nothing more than a political belief with a political goal.
If you want minarets,go to an islamic country,its that easy.
Hey mustafa whatever, you're ignorant, you cannot appeal to the european court of human rights until you exploited every national court, and since matters of public vote cannot be brought in court you are my friend, powerless.
The Islamic takeover of Europe this time is mostly peaceful (a 'flower war' jihad), with the benefit of having peaceful Muslims in favour of expansionism too (or leastways not caring.)
That's why the Swiss referendum result was not just about minarets, though most people anywhere in Europe may not feel safe enough to admit as much.
Paste this title into the bar for some encouraging Public opinion: ISLAMIFICATION OF SWITZERLAND STALLED BY POPULAR VOTE!
I ran across the following in the "Swiss Minaret ban " search. It's a talk show with call-ins. I thought the conversation was interesting. Those guys sure know their Koran and Bible.
"The Swiss Minaret Ban" watch?v=VI92y29kr5I
It consists of fifteen (15) clips that can be downloaded to mp4. If a sentence of a speaker is interrupted by a station break or the end of a clip. The sentence will be repeated on the following clip.
@PrishtinaHottiee, So what? It were 10.000 MUSLEM boys and men. We didn't pulled the trigger but so what if we did? Personaly to me i don't give a rats ass about 10.000 MUSLEM men. To me they are all equally worthless.
no just telling you, that you will go down in history as being genocide perpetrators. World is changing. "dont ever use your 2 minutes, as vengeance when you can" this is a islamic saying, 500 years you could build churches, and practice, your time came, we wait for our time.
I know that islam will wait till it is islam-time. But islam can wait until hell freezes over because it will never happen. In 50 years the world will know islam only from dusty history-books and a great middle eastern parking lot.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
once upon the time pope said "world is flat and there can not be any other way because the bibel said so", but the islamic scalars proved him wrong in 8th century. "Never" is a word you never use when dealing with politics, not in a dynamic universe where nothing is "never".
GOD BLESS THE 11 MILION MUSLIM EUROPEANS IN BALKANS.
Once upon a time the prophet of islam, mohammed the pedopile, said to drink camelurine, behead people who are non muslem, to do taqiyya and had sex with his dead aunt who was already in the grave. The pope is a selfcalled right hand of God on earth and has nothing to do with believe. He is the leader of catholic religion. Your attempt to ridiculize christianity was in vain but please stop islamic terror on peaceloving christians and other believes. GOD BLESS ALL NON MUSLEM PEOPLE ON EARTH.
oh you just proved you have personalty disorder, so no need to continue with you, you are just dumb, unable to keep a conversation without bias. Stereotypes and generalizations work well for someone like you.
Of course I have a personality disorder. You can't insult me with your "hobby-psychology". I don't even want you to keep conversation with me. You are a muslem and i do not talk to people of satan. Non the less mohammed is still a pedophile. What can you do about it?
BTW. I did some research and their were arabians (arabians are not especially muslems and even more in 8 century) But they coudn't prove it. If islam has such great scientists, just name One!!! pioneering scientific research from the last 5 centuries. I dare you!!! (do not mention the bombgirdle)
islam is the reason you have civilization in europe, you monkey, uneducated idiot, you would have still been in dark ages, you wouldn't be able to use the computer, because the arithmetic language is based on zero discovered by arabs. Dont reply to me, you are not in my level to converse. Bye idiot.
TAQIYYA ones more! The rich Arab culture brought early culture to the world but they were not the only people who did it. It was pre-islam Arab culture. islam has nothing to do with that. Nowadays islam brings only terror en inbread, lies, discrimination etc etc. To me you are just a subhuman just like mohammed the pedophile and you may adres me as nobel crusader. Understood, you ignorant lowlife muslem untermensch! BTW were is the islamic pioneering scientific research I asked for? hahaha!
PristinaHottie...please if you're really European (if you're really from Pristina) . What Diego meant is: islam was nothing at the time the Greek (your supposed neighbours) and the Persian Civilization alredy existed. They were just bedouin thiefs
true and i am indeed very thankful that i dont have to use roman numbers
but i belive that the muslim world now is the underdeveloped one seeing that you dont have many laws brought forward by the western world that boost peace and prosperty.
Its common misconception the numbers we use were invented by arabs. They were invented in pre-islamic India. The arabs, who had trade contacts with the Indians only borrowed them.
They're not underdeveloped, they own big money (partly) invested in Swiss banks, so, what's their contribution to "...boost peace and prosperty"?
When you say "..to enforce our culture by brutal force.." what are you referring to exactly? I frankly don't see such a situation here in Europe. I rather see the opposite: London 7/11, Madrid 2/15 etc.
Though I'm in broad agreement that a ban is not a good idea but isn't the bigger picture that we have a transparently obvious clash of civilisations that no amount of diversity promotion or "dialogue and compromise" (so far, unwanted by islamists on a serious basis) is going to reconcile?
2 January 2010, 04:50 hrs:- I have just heard from BBC News that a Somali Islamist tried to kill a Danish cartoonist in his own home because "he insulted his prophet".
Still we are not banning moslems, the moslem religion, or moslem houses of worship in our countries.
I think the decision had positive and negative results. On the negative it definitely will help alienate and isolate further a minority. I find it a stupid argument allowing minarets will have the imposition of Sharia law as a direct consequence, I don't get it.
On the positive I think it serves as a wakeup call to Muslims to not take European freedom for granted and learn to examine themselves and communities to drive out the extremists that used Europe as a safe haven for their extreme ideas.
NotSoLiberal - You can see in 19th century lithographs the damage they inflicted on the Parthenon with the addition of the minarets. They were removed after the Othomans were forced out of Greece.
Today, a stage has been reached where to humour them any further equates with doing them a disservice. Ironically it was the docile Swiss who had the courage to highlight the problem.
Note that German Jews were fully intergrated and did not stand out in any way, in attire, language, looks etc.
@tanjatanya: Remember this is the 21st century and this is Europe. I don't understand why you're citing historical events that happened in the 19th century when Europe supposedly moved away from this and is setting an example. What do muslims in Switzerland have to do with what the Ottomans to St. Sophia. What do they have to do with what's happening in Saudi Arabia. Do you think there isn't enough examples of Muslims being oppressed under dictatorships with non-Muslim majority?
@NotSoLiberal - Re: "Muslims bein oppressed under dictatorships with non-Muslim majority"
In Cyprus the Turkish minority with the support of Turkey have occupied almost half of the northern part of the island. This was not in the 19th century but in 1974, and are still there.
The properties of the Greeks are sold to foreign developers - mainly Israeli. The Greek churches are systematically dismantled and the Byzantine fixtures are being sold abroad this very moment.
NotSoLiberal - @ "What do muslims in Switzerland have to do with St Sophia"
Firstly, they are Turks.
Secondly, they are anxious to take offence because the Swiss people came to a democratic decision not to allow the erection of any more structures unique to moslem culture which are alien to them esthetically and culturally - inspite of the fact that they come from a country which demostrated utter contempt for other people's religion and culture after invading and occupying their country.
NotSoLiberal - @ Your statement that we live in the 21st century:
Exactly! Moslems are welcome to make use of our 21st century facilities: Democracy, laws, education, and stop persisting on what their prophets wrote down following conversations they had with angels and archangels in the desert 1500 years ago. I respect someones mental state and how he wants to cope with it. But I shall NEVER change my way of life to suit theirs.
Listen I understand we're all humans and the many incidents of extremists and old history it is natural to expect some irrational reaction. But Europe has become the haven of tolerance and acceptance and unfortunately that Europe is turning into an extremist right wing nation just by the action of a few. I understand freedom is granted to minorities but unfortunately this is one unpromising step towards more radical steps. Especially with gap widening by such decision.
NotSoLiberal - Re: " ... freedom is granted to minorities but ..."
We live in countries where freedom is not "granted" because it is nobody's to "grant". In our part of the World all citizens enjoy equal rights and are all equal before the Law. We find "blasphemy laws" unbecoming and outdated. We do not kill people who make jokes about religion, saints and angels on tv or any other media. We do not burn books and bookshops as during the Sulman Rushdie affair with his Satanic Verses.
Are all Christian countries held accountable for that? Two wrongs don't make a right. Why are you saying that German Jews are fully integrated in attire language, looks, etc and not Muslims? What was the guy in the video wearing? You keep imagining one version of Muslims that is long bearded in white long . Definitely not the majority. What language do you think they're speaking? Your comments are just bigoted.
@NotSoLiberal - The thoughts that come to mind when the word Turk is mentioned are: massacre, genocide and destruction: Armenian Massacre; Istanbul Pogrom of 1955 where Greek properties were destroyed and 135,000 Greeks were thrown out of the country without any form of compensation, men and children were butchered and women raped; the invasion of Cyprus and the continuous occupation in full contempt for international law.
Inspite of everything we still sympathised and helped in Yugoslavia!
@NotSoLiberal - Re: "Are Christian countries held accountable ... ?"
If they ill-treat any minority group then they ought to be held responsible!
Re: "Two wrongs don't make a right"
Certainly! But in which way have the Europeans wronged the moslems? Why can't moslems come to a European country and intergrate like everyone else? Why do they have to bring their 5th century laws and customs with them which are a formula for disaster.
@ klearchosklearchou : We can go back and forth over who did what over the course of history. Since you're from Yugoslavia I remind of the Srebrenica massacre. I can remind you of Muslim countries being colonized in the not too far past and plenty of atrocities committed there. If you're gonna speak history there were so many events.
NotSoLiberal - I do not know how you deduced that I am "Yugoslavian". I used the example of Yugoslavia to demostrate that inspite of what the Turks did in Europe, including their collaboration with the Nazis during the occupation of the region, we (Europeans) still helped them.
Not all Muslims are Turks. The majority of Muslims who travel to Switzerland want to enjoy the freedom in Europe live their lives while preserving part of their identity. Going to the mosque doesn't necessarily mean the desire to kill infidels or apply Shria law. There are plenty of Chruches in the Muslim world. Egypt is an example. Imagine if Egypt has banned the display of the cross or the image of Jesus or the cathedral dome just because they bring memories of the Crusades. BS my friend.
NotSoLiberal - Re: Banning the cross or the image of Jesus;
The cross is an instrument of agonising death. I would feel the same for a guillotine or a hangman's noose.
Re: Crusaders:
They used religion in the same way as the barbaric hordes of Othomans that invaded Europe.
It would be unfair, however, to forbid anyone practising the religion of their choice - as long as it does not involve cruelty, such as human sacrifice, mutilation, flogging, stoning, decapitation, etc.
@tanjatanya : I never defended the Crusades until I debated with muslims. However, since terrorism is never a inspired by coran and suicide bombers are bad muslims (just wonder why hamas is alway celebrating them) I changed my perspective. The Crusades were legitimate defensive wars against muslim oppression. The deplorable atrocities committed were by definition not the acts of Christians as the teaching of Christ forbids it. And you know that this perspective is a valid one.
I would be more concerned about violation of human rights, in Egypt, and their servillity towards the US as regards their co-operation in Extraordinary Rendition, rather than the observance of abstract religious symbols that cause more division than unity.
Re: Image of Jesus:
I am not into idolatry! At any rate the image looks more Gothic than Semitic - as it is supposed to be.
I hope that "BS" is not a rude acronym - in which case I depart!
I wanted to emphasise that in the 1930s a group of people who did not look different from any other group in Europe and spoke the language of their country without an accent were made a target for percecution. Unlike them, the moslems, do not mix, are high profile and aggressively different and are also anxious to take offence. People are beginning to find them tiresome and are less welcoming towards them. Use history as an indicator.
I agree Muslims need to integrate more and remember Muslims had been in Europe over much fewer years than Jews in Europe. Unfortunately such decision doesn't help with integration and adds to more isolation.
"following conversations they had with angels and archangels in the desert 1500 years ago"
You seem to forget that this describes Christianity as well. Nobody asked a change of your way of life. They asked for some respect to their place of worship.
NotSoLiberal - @ "... this describes Christianity as well."
Ofcourse it does! After all Christianity too is an Abrahamic religion - i.e. a Jewish sect founded on the premise that a criminal running away from Chaldea with his band of brigands, harems, camels, mules and goats, heard voices in the desert asking him to go and take over someone else's land.
From this you can deduce that I am not critical of moslems as a "christian". I find what is happening in Palestine despicable! Turks don't!
especially when you say "esthetically offensive" because for many they are a beautiful architectural innovation even though it doesn't really matter for the sake of the argument.
@NotSoLiberal - Something unfamiliar to our culture is often esthetically offensive. I agree with her. I would respect your views if you find Christian churches esthetically offensive and I can not think of any European in his right mind who would want to build a cathedral in the middle of a Turkish or Arabic city.
As she pointed out there are no restrictions in the number of mosques for the faithful to worship.
It is an established fact: minarets are associated with violence!
NotSoLiberal - @ My reference to the minarets being esthetically offensive:
The places which we inhabit are extremely important for our psychological health. Architecture differs from country to country. Even within the same city, or neighbourhood, the place where we choose to live in to protect us from the elements is slightly different from the one next door. However, architecture remains within the frame that makes our neighbourhoods, countries and cities unique and our own.
@tanjatanya: I still can't find it and I strongly doubt that the Filipino gov would let this happen esp with the large Saudi dependence on Filipinos.
Also a place of minority worship shouldn't be offensive to people because it is naturally different especially when you think there's only 4 minarets over whole Switzerland. Would you think the same if Jewish synagogues had a big star of David on top. I would agree if they become too many but 4?
If that incident is all that is needed to confirm the Saudis stance try the BBC. I could have given you other examples. If I were to refer to it in an essay I would ofcourse have made given proper citations.
Re: Jewish synagogues:
Yes I would think the same even if they didn't have the star - unless ofcourse they were there before I chose to go and live in the house next door. The same for a Christian church!
The incident would be easy to trace if you are a serious researcher. I used that example because it is still vivid in my memory. I was in a boarding school for girls in Switzerland at the time, and the nuns held a special service when the news came through. Perhaps the incident attracted more publicity in the West than in the Philippines. Perhaps the cowardly and barbaric Saudi action wouldn't have taken place if the worshippers were European.
"islam is not a religion, it is a criminal organisation and must be forbidden. In koran sure 9.30 they require genocide on christians and jews. The muslim terror is just the fulfilling of the Koran and a logical consequence of mohammed cruel propaganda"
When Mehmet Ali Agca, who represented a group of Turkish extremists,
tried to assassinate Pope John in 1981 not a single Christian called for revenge against the Turks or their fellow moslems. Yet, they are threatening to blow us up on account of allegedly "blasphemous" cartoons.
Islam must be the most insecure religion that ever existed since it is so easily offended!
Since they find our countries so displeasing, then why don't they stay in their fly-ridden paradise amongst their kind?
@tanjatanya: It's funny you talk about insecurity when this whole minaret ordeal is a great sign of insecurity on part of the Swiss. All the western values that you mentioned are welcomed and acknowledged by many Muslims who live inside and outside Switzerland. Why are the Swiss insecure in the power of their laws and society to isolate the extremists and welcome the moderates. Unfortunately the ban of Minarets sends a message to both sides that you are not welcomed here irregardless
Not'SoLiberal - There is no restriction as to the number of places of worship that they choose to have. The restriction is on the tall structures they call minarets. All over Eastern Europe numerous Christian churches have been converted into mosques and had minarets added on them. St Sophia in Istambul is a good example.
In the 1990s in Saudi Arabia a group of Christian Catholic Philippino workers were decapitated for meeting in a private house for the purpose of worship.
NotSoLiberal - Surely the esthetically offensive minaret structures must have some special significance to them in terms of manifesting "authority" or marking their territory in a canine fashion. They have a very long tradition in doing so.
Even the Parthenon on the Athenian Acropolis, the most significant building in Western architecture, reflecting democratic ideals in the City where Democracy was conceived, was desecrated with the addition of 4 minarets in order to establish their authority!
If my religion involves drinking a glass of wine during religious ceremonies then I won't practise my religion during a visit to a country which is under islamic dictatorship where wine is forbidden.
Yes, our democracy guarantees free religious expression to all. At the same time our democracy forbids sex with children, female circumcision, ill treatment of women, polygamy, and "honour killings".
It is imperative that Religion needs to be redefined now that these people come to live in our countries. An act of violence should not be allowed on the basis that it is dictated by what a bunch of raving lunatics call their "holy book"!
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i ve always loved swizerland , and ive always consider this country as heaven on earth , but now all this believed i had vanished away.. pffffff im so surprised!!
Islam is mad because someone, somewhere stood up against them. Britain already sold out when they allowed Sharia law to take place in over 80 towns/cities in there own land! WTF?When a nation loses it's laws ,lands and customs is'nt that called an invasion?Whole towns and villages are being taken over by muslims who then intimidate & scare the local people off their land. That is what is happening all over Europe right now. Congrats to the Swiss for starting the ball to roll. Back off Islam!
A 54-year-old Muslim man, from Woolwich, south-east London, was jailed because he organised a Muslim wedding ceremony, illegal in the UK, between his 16-year-old son and his 12-year-old cousin and then with the little girl's father asked the boy to rape her.
At Wood Green Crown Court the boy got an 18-month supervision order for rape.
Question:- Does anyone think that interfering with Muslim customs, such as child rape, is undemocratic?
Both fathers of the two Muslim children have been jailed for 3 years for inciting children to engage in sexual activity following a Muslim marriage between children which is illegal in the UK.
It seems that the reputation of Great Britain will suffer abroad for showing such disrespect towards Islam and for violating the inalienable right of Muslims to practise their religion freely!
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ha ha ha the swiss are funny people ...so what if they going to make a minaret.let them make minarets there paying for it ,more jobs to create good for economy..more building construction...swiss needs to learn respect for othher religions.
At the Old Bailey, today, another Turkish father Mehmet, 49, was convicted of murder and sent to jail because he murdered his daughter.
Are we racists because we do not approve of "honour killings"? Why should we have to accept despicable, beastly, barbaric practices like that in the street where we live, so that we won't be lebelled as racists.
The above incident is reported in the Front Page of BBC News. There is also a video report on the same page {17 December 2009}.
Yes! This must be the third Turkish "honour killing" that reached the Old Bailey in less than a year in London.
If by being disgusted with such practices makes us "racist" then let it be! I am not prepared to approve of the killing of young girls just because they refuse female circumcision or because they resist arranged marriages - or for any other reason.
Tanja - I've read it! She was only 15 years old. What kind of a sick person can kill his daughter for behaving like her fellow European girls at school? These are the people who want to be accepted in the EU. I think that a stage has been reached where we must ask as to whether Democracy comes with an inbuilt self-destuction mechanism. We brought it on ourselves. Our democratic system is their most effective weapon!
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you are talking ridicilous..you do not have such thins in Europe..i went to München,Salzburg and Prague last summer..people in there are very cold however Turks are very sincerely..
fan5x - @ "europeans" doing the same things they accuse other people do .. [sic]
What "same things" do you have in mind?
When have you last heard of anyone, in Europe, being condemned to public flogging, stoning, decapitation, or a girl to be raped by all men in the village as an example for other "bad girls"?
We stand against a religion that forms the basis of such morality - whatever that religion might be!
@fan5x:- @ ... people incapable of providing solutions:
The "Armenian solution", as well as the Istambul pogrom of 1955, were hardly "provided" by capable people.
Germany apologized for what the Nazis did, yet the Turks are unrepentant to this day about the Armenian genocide, the Instambul pogrom, and the invasion of Cyprus as well as the illegal occupation of more than one third of the island!
For me the issue is simple. In democratic societies, the majority decides. Surely one can have many discussions about the ramifications from banning a type of building, religious or other. But the majority still decides. People who have decided to move to Switzerland should respect that. Sure they can use all the legal procedures allowed to attempt to change the result, if they think they can. But they should always remember to respect the laws of the country they decided to make their home.
Like the slavery abolition, society needs to reach a point when we abolish the international slavery of sweatshop labor by Western multinational corporations.Free trade has only allowed all the power in the world to be given to one actor, multinational corporations.
Bad employment conditions and exploitation of children has been exposed by the West without the slightest response from moslem countries. Inspite of unethical practices employed by Turkish carpet manufacturers broadcasted on British TV, still the present government is trying to facilitate the inclusion of Turkey into the EU.
Importers of goods from 3rd world countries are required to specify as to whether child labour was used for their production.
If your interested in slavery then you'll be interested in
Wal-Mart + Nike = Slavery
Millions of child slave labor is being used all over the world to produce quality name brands by Western Corporations, Nike, The GAP, Nordstrom, The Limited, Wal-Mart, Kmart, J.C. Penney and so on and so on are all guilty of forcing children into working for nearly nothing.
better to live in a country where majority opinion is visible through policy than otherwise. If muslims are living in a country where the majority of people aren't entirely comfortable with islam, then it's best that they and everyone else know the score. unexpressed undercurrents of social disharmony are best vented than left to explode.
blahblahfeckinblah 1 month ago
ALL SWISS COMPANIES ARE CLOSED IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES!YOU WANT IT??? OK NO PROBLEM!!
WITHIN 10 YEARS,ALL SWISS COMPANIES WILL GO BANKRUPT! IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES!!
MUSLIMS HAVE NO HOLDING IN EUROPE!
50% OF SWITZERLAND'S ECONOMY RETURNS TO THE ISLAMIC COUNTRIES!!
I HATE ANTI-ISLAM PEOPLE AND COUNTRIES!!! ((freedom of thought))) :-)))
ulas888 7 months ago
No more hate! Don't discriminate! So STOP ISLAM
YoungIvyScholar 1 year ago
Switzerland should be about swiss army knives, nice watches and perfrection. Place the minerettes in the places where they belong. Amongst the poverty, desperation and coruption of Islam.
bloodandwinearered 1 year ago
@bloodandwinearered I don't know what religion you are but you do sound arrogant. You associate poverty with Islam, yes in this life we are poor but after life we shall inherit paradise. You should listen to the Message of Jesus(pbuh) Blessed are the poor...indeed...God is the greatest.
blaqsoldier 10 months ago
@blaqsoldier I have traveled through 54 countries and love the diversity in the world. I do not want it to be all one way. I don't want burkas in France or Bikini's in Arabia, it would ruin both places. I am not bothered by poverty if the people are poor, but healthy and happy as in the Philippines. What is in Indonesia is something else altogether. It is life gone wrong. People are sick and puss flows from their eyes and open sores on their bodies. Let's leave Switzerland as it is.
bloodandwinearered 10 months ago
@bloodandwinearered U are one fucked up guy u go from being extremely prejudice to trying to play it Mr. nice guy and shit i ain't buyin it and anyone else who is capable of thinking shouldn't either, i bet u haven't left the trailer park
boodi45 6 months ago
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deport all muslims from Europe!!!
jigglyfidda125 1 year ago
Ofcourse I do,and you should take some lessons from them and Let It Be.
Defcom96 1 year ago
i m Swiss. many young people are socialists do not understand a shit. in schools we are brainwashed against America and in favor of communist policies.
persenso 1 year ago
@persenso you again!
You know shit about Switzerland,you are making up Lies.
And you are certainly NOT Swiss.
Your just a little lying Troll,go read up on some swiss history before you open your Mouth!
Defcom96 1 year ago
@Defcom96 In my channel I can write the Congo. is my freedom. But I am Swiss and I repeat my thought here is full of socialist anti-American, anti-nationalist, everything that one says in freedom "racist" you speak your own mind "you are racist" everything is done for their program, for the first the left is guilty of this.
persenso 1 year ago
@persenso So you are now calling me a racist because I called Bullshit on you?
You are even dumber than I thought,LOL
And just so you know I am Swiss and I did go to School in Switzerland and what you claim they teach there is BULLSHIT!
Defcom96 1 year ago
@Defcom96 Mr Mango you know the Beatles?
persenso 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
throbule 1 year ago
Sharia law is an evil institution. It is as evil as the prophet the muslims venerate. Sorry people, I never use a CAPITAL letter if I'm referring to a false religion or cult ie: the cult of islam. I hope the Dutch cartoonists immortalize the false prophet with a minaret shoved up his butt and him loving it. And some idiot a few pages ahead claims that islam is the most progressive religion this world has ever known? That is la la land, my friends or if you are islamic, my fiends. They can LMBTMF
pmoyer50 1 year ago
Leave Europe alone! France is already gone.
GTXMAN 1 year ago
Minarets will impose sharia law? How old is this guy? sounds like something a child would say. There is a huge percentage of Christian Arabs in the middle east and if you saw the churches you would laugh at the churches in Europe. I suggest the Swiss to visit Islamic country to learn more. Also Minarets are not in Sharia law because its not obligatory. They started to build them so Muslims would find the mosques and stop entering churches by mistake. Read more, you are a MP for Christ' sake.
mmitwaly 1 year ago 3
idiot swiss racists
ghiraykhan 1 year ago
@ghiraykhan : shut the fuck off bastard
SwissPhil01 1 year ago
Muslims only respect other religions while they are the minority, once they become the majority, the fundamentalists take over!
Hillsillverr 1 year ago
Is there any other reason why they need to build minarets (or gigantic mosques) other than their wet dream of islamizing Europe? I think not.
Fuchizaa 1 year ago
why can't churches be constructed in arab countries? and these fuckin hypocrites dare to blame another nation for not catering to islam which is a religion that disrespects all religions...islam is the great curse and anything but islam is the cure...why do people tolerate islam? everyone knows the trouble around the globe since 9/11 is because of islam...they strike now in russia...let the world unite against islam...islam is not a worthy religion...it must be destroyed...
WilhelmHelmut 1 year ago
@WilhelmHelmut ISLAM CANT BE DESTROYED..THEY COULDNT WITH THE CHRISTIAN CRUSADES..GOD FAVOUR US THE MUSLIMS..THE ONES THAT SUMMIT TO GOD WILLS
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Yeah, God obviously favors you Muslims - that's why you've been getting humiliated and your asses kicked over and over again in conflicts with the infidels and live in shitholes that are so backwards that millions of you would rather be amongst kuffar here than their own brothers at home! It's clearly Allah's will that Muslims be the dirt on everyone else's boots and live in the worst, most barren places on earth.
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir I pity your comment. It shows YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. THE MUSLIMS RULED THE WORLD FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. THEIR EMPIRE WAS MIGHTY AND VAST. MUSLIMS WERE THE FIRST TO DO CATARACT SURGERY. THE EUROPEANS USED TO VISIT THE MUSLIMS TO LEARN ABOUT ALGEBRA, ARCHITECTURE, ARTS, MEDICINE, EVEN CLEANLINESS. WHEN EUROPEANS DIDNT SHOWER, MUSLIMS WERE CLEANING THEMSELVES 5 TIMES A DAY. WHEN WE GREW ARROGANT AND TURNED AWAY FROM THE CORE OF OUR RELIGION. GOD FLIPPED THE TABLES. THE WEST THEN RULED.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD It wasn't arrogance toward Allah that made you the West's bitch - the West simply never stopped progressing once they came out of their caves and got their shit together. Europeans learned much from others, incl. the Arab world, and improved upon it and went full tilt with the knowledge they acquired and developed (to the detriment of other peoples around the world, unfortunately). Muslims became victims of their own religion which hinders progress - and you still are.
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir THE WEST GOT NOTHING ON THE ARABS IF THEY BUT UNITE. THEY WILL IN FORESEEABLE FUTURE. LAST TIME I CHECKED FROM 1980'S TILL TODAY THE ARABS HAD HELD TIGHT THE OIL. THAT'S WHY THEY ATTACKED KUWAIT AND IRAQ AND ALL. UNLESS THE WEST FINDS ANOTHER SOURCE OF POWER OTHER THAN OIL. WE GOT THEM BY THE BALLS. ISLAM NEVER HINDERERS PROGRESS. IT RATHER PREACHES PROGRESS AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT CONFLICT SHARIA. TRUE THAT EUROPEANS GOT IT TOGETHER. WE HAD OUR TIME. SOON WE WILL CATCH UP.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD If you expect Arab unity anytime between now and the end of time - good luck! Sunnis can't even get along with Shias. The West already has the technology to break away from Arab oil to a large degree but it's being suppressed because it would heavily undercut the profits of some very powerful people. Islam does not preach progress - it preaches the exact opposite. That's why most Muslims live in 3rd World dictatorships with few rights and little freedom. Islam = prison.
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir Shias are found on very few places. Mostly in Iran. Most Shias under sharia are not considered Muslims. The majority of Muslims from the Arab world will unite when necessity arrives. And yes the West got the technology to break away from oil. However that is not to occur perhaps in a few years ahead. We will see. ISLAM WAS THE MOST PROGRESSIVE RELIGION THE WORLD.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD "FREEDOM" TO THE WEST MEANS ACCEPTANCE OF BEHAVIOURS LIKE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. GAYS MARRIAGES. ALLOWANCE OF ALCOHOL AND DRUGS. DISBELIEF. LACK OF MORALS AND MANNERS, ETHICS. THE WEST IS ONE OF THE MOST IMMORAL SOCIETIES I HAVE EVER COME ACROSS. HIGHEST SUICIDE RATES. IS A DISASTER. HIGHEST DIVORCE RATE. HIGHEST RAPE RATES. HIGHEST VIOLENCE RATES. JAILS FULLED WITH PRISONERS THAT THE SYSTEM ITSELF CANNOT REFORM. HIGHEST IN THE SPREAD OF AIDS. WE ALL KNOW THAT AND SEEN IT.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir ISLAM IS THE MOST PROGRSSIVE RELIGION IN THE WORLD. WHEN ISLAM CAME WOMEN WERE BEEN BURIED ALIVE IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA. EUROPE AND ASIA AND AFRICA GAVE WOMEN NO RIGHTS. THEY WERENT EVEN CONSIDERED HUMANS. ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT GAVE PROGRESS TO THE ARABS. READ. ISLAM GAVE WOMEN THE RIGHTS TO MARRY, TO CHOOSE. IT CHANGED THE EVERYDAY LIFE OF THE ARABS. ECONOMICS, MATH, ASTRONOMY. YOU NAME IT.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir FIRST LETS BEGIN SAYING THAT MANY MUSLIM COUNTRIES PRACTICE MORE CULTURE THAN SHARIA ITSELF. OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE THE SOCIO-ECONOMICAL ISSUES THEY ARE FACING EVERYDAY. IF YOU READ BACK TO WHEN THE MUSLIMS HAD SUCCESS AT ITS PEAK YOU WILL FIND THAT THIS WAS DUE TO THE PROPER PRACTICE OF ISLAM. WHEN CORRUPTION CAME TO THE MUSLIMS SOON THEY MET THEIR DOWNFALL. ISLAM GAVE US FREEDOM. TO THE WEST FREEDOM MEANS ACCEPTANCE AMONG SOCIETY OF "IMMORAL" BEHAVIOURS. SHARIA CONDEMNS SUCH.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir SHARIA WILL NEVER TOLERATE WHAT YOU CALL "FREEDOM". YOUR "FREEDOM" IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS THE WEST IS FACING. YOUR "FREEDOM" IS THE REASON WHY MANY FAMILIES CONSIST OF A SINGLE PARENT. YOUR "FREEDOM" IS NOTHING BUT FOLLOWING VAIN DESIRES THAT LEAD TO GREATER SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND FURTHER INJUSTICE. JUST READ. PEACE OUT.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Sharia is the worst form of oppression in any religion, period. I could care less what Sharia tolerates - it's totally irrelevant to anyone in the West. We ALL will GLADLY take our freedom with all its imperfections over your perfect religious fascism any day and twice on Sunday. The reason why Islam will never EVER rule the world is because it is anti-freedom to the core and people that have experienced freedom and choice will never EVER give it up! To the death!
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir You speak of Sharia but you know nothing of what sharia consist of. THEREFORE YOU DONT KNOW THE FREEDOMS AND RIGHTS IT GIVES. AND OF COURSE YOU RATHER STAY IGNORANT. WHAT YOU SPEAK OF IS CULTURE. AS A FORMER ROMAN CATHOLIC I WOULD HAD NEVER CONVERT TO ISLAM UNLESS I KNEW THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOM IT GIVES ME. IS FUNNY HOW THE CONVERTS KEEP COMING. IM SURE SHARIA GIVES PLENTY OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOM. KEEP THE WEST. WE GOT OUR HOLLY LAND. WE DONT WANT YOURS. KEEP YOUR ROTTEN SOCIETY.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir Listen. DONT SPEAK OF SOMETHING YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF. HOW CAN YOU TALK OF SHARIA WHEN YOU DONT KNOW IT? WHILE EUROPE CONSIDERED WOMEN AND BLACKS INSECTS AND HAD NO TOLERANCE FOR JEWS. ISLAM GAVE WOMEN AND BLACKS AND JEWS HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM. WHY YOU THINK MOST OF AFRICA IS MUSLIM? WHY YOU THINK ISLAM GREW SO QUICK IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA. ISLAM UNITED PEOPLE OF ALL COLOR. BY FAR EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS WERE THE MOST RACIST AND ANTI-SEMETIC PEOPLE THROUGHOUT HISTORY.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir BEFORE YOU SPEAK OF SHARIA BRING SOME SOLID FACTS TO THE TABLE. IM SURE YOU KNOW NOTHING OF SHARIA. SO SHUSH. KEEP QUIET. WHILE THE WEST WAS LYNCHING NEGROES AND CONSIDERED WOMEN OBJECTS. WE THE MUSLIMS GAVE THEM HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS OVER 1400 YEARS BEFORE YOU DID. LIKE MALCOM X SAID, "ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION FOR THE BLACK MAN AND THE OPPRESSED". SO SHUSH. KEEP QUIET. YOU GOT NO KNOWLEDGE OF SHARIA. DONT COMPARE CULTURE WITH ISLAM. READ. READ. BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD I know more about Sharia Law than you think. I compare culture to Islam because culture in Islamo-Fascistan is influenced by Islam more than anything else. Islam is the dominant dark force in those countries - places where people can still be accused and executed as witches, stoned as adulterers, mangled for stealing, or tortured and killed simply for loving someone of the wrong gender - all based on the Sharia. Human rights my ass! Lying 4 Allah will get U nowhere!
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir IS THAT WHAT YOU KNOW OF SHARIA. STILL KNOW NOTHING OF SHARIA. LET ME GUESS. YOU READ THAT IN WIKIPEDIA. HOW MANY PHD'S YOU GOT ON SHARIA? ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING OF SHARIA. YOU DONT KNOW THE RULINGS UNDER THOSE EXECUTIONS TAKE PLACE. THERE HAS TO BE WITNESSES, EVIDENCE, TRIALS UNDER COURT. YOU STILL IGNORANT. THERE IS NO MUSLIM COUNTRY TODAY THAT IS PRACTICING SHARIA ACCORDINGLY AND PROPERLY TO THE QURAN. NOT EVEN SAUDI ARABIA. SO SHUSH. YOU STILL SPEAK IGNORANTLY.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir IF ISLAM IS ANTI-FREEDOM TO THE CORE THEN TELL ME WHY IS AFRICA MOSTLY MUSLIM?. THEN TELL ME WHY THE MONGOLS EMBRACED ISLAM AND LEFT THEIR SAVAGE AND GRUESOME WAYS?. THEN TELL ME WHY ISLAM WAS SPREAD AS FAR AS CHINA?. WHERE TODAY THOUSANDS STILL PRACTICE IT. IF IT IS ANTI-FREEDOM THEN TELL ME WHY ISLAM IS GROWING IN VENEZUELA, MEXICO, CHILE, BRAZIL. SHUSH. YOU BLINDED BY YOUR HATRED AND IGNORANCE. READ MAN. JUST READ RELIABLE SOURCES. SO YOU DONT ACT A FOOL. I DONT SEE THEM OPPRESSED
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD You're not oppressed because you're lucky to live in Canada and not one of those Islamic dictatorships where you think people have freedom. You know that's all BS because EVERY YEAR 10s of 1000s of people from Turkey to Africa leave those 'bastions of Islamic freedom' for Europa and America while none of us go live there. Who is being foolish here? Islam gaining followers in certain countries doesn't mean shit - it simply confirms that there are stupid people everywhere!
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir ISLAMIC DICATADORSHIP? YOU KNOW NOTHING OF ISLAM. LEADERS ARE CHOSEN BY CONSENSUS OF MAJORITY. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ISLAMIC DICTATORSHIP. THERE MAY BE DICTATORSHIP BUT NOT ISLAMIC. BECAUSE THE RULINGS OF SHARIA IMPOSE SUCH. AGAIN YOU SHOW LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SHARIA. GOD IS WITH THE OPPRESSED. NO ARAB OR "MUSLIM" COUNTRY TODAY FOLLOWS SHARIA OR ISLAM ACCORDINGLY TO QURAN AND SUNNAH. THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE CONSIDERED A MUSLIM STATE. THEREFORE THERE IS NO ISLAMIC DICTATORSHIP.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir THERE IS DICTADORSHIP IN SOME "MUSLIM" COUNTRIES. HOWEVER THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED "ISLAMIC" BECAUSE THEY DO NOT FOLLOW SHARIA RULING ACCORDING TO QURAN OR SUNNAH. RATHER THEY BEND IT TO THEIR WILL. TURKEY IS NOT CONSIDERED A "MUSLIM" COUNTRY. THE PEOPLE THAT LEAVE TO EUROPE OR AMERICA IS BECAUSE EDUCATION OR WAR. THE WEST EDUCATION SYSTEM IS VALUED ALL OVER THE WORLD THATS WHY THEY GO THERE. NOT BECAUSE OPPRESSION.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafirI WILL NOT DEBATE MORE CAUSE SOMEONE LIKE YOU IS OBSTRUCTED BY THEIR BLIND HATE. KEEP HATING. I KNOW THAT TODAY I WOULD NOT BE AMONG THE THOUSANDS OF CONVERTS IF IT WASNT FOR THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS THAT ISLAM GIVES ME. IM SURE THE PEOPLE I MET, THE THOUSANDS OF CONVERTS I SEEN FEEL THE SAME. IM A LIVING PROOF. ENOUGH PROOF TO THOUSANDS. NO WORRIES. THE STUPID PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO FILL 1.3 BILLION MUSLIMS. SEE FOR YOURSELF. THIS RELIGION WILL CONTINUE TO GROW. IM OUT. PEACE.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Yeah, you most certainly are 'out'..... out of your mind! LOL In the immortal words of Mr. T: "I pity da fool!"
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@HalalKafir IM SURE MR RED WILL PITY 1.3 BILLION FOOLS. SOON HE WILL PITY 2 BILLION FOOLS. PEACE.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@HalalKafir before you say anything read. read history. and you would find that it has not been until a few years that the muslims are been humiliated. That occurred right after the Ottoman empire was dissolve. IF THE MUSLIMS IN THE ARAB WORLD UNITE THEY WOULD REGAIN THEIR HONOR. THE WEST WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST . THE ARABS ARE FILTHY RICH IN OIL AND OTHER VALUABLE SOURCES. CURRENTLY KUWAIT HOLDS THE MOST VALUED CURRENCY IN THE WORLD. KUWAIT DINAR.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
@ServantoftheTRUEGOD Your oil is only valuable because everyone in the world buys it. If nobody buys your oil - there goes your wealth. Sadly, the world could probably be off the Arab oil teet already and exist on alternate sources of NRG if it wasn't for the oil cartels that don't want that to happen. Frankly, I cannot wait for that day to come - because it will come someday - so the West can disengage from the anti-democratic Arab/Muslim world to a much larger degree and move on.
HalalKafir 1 year ago
@WilhelmHelmut : Although I agree with you I think that what is going on in Saudi-Arabia is non of our business. However, Saudi financing of radical clerics is and therefore I want to see only clerics preaching that have the respective citizenship and a state licency to preach.
januk36 1 year ago
3:51 BULLSHIT there is no Freedom of Religion under ISLAM!!!!!go see how the Turkish Christian are treated,they are a tiny Minority and are Persecuted ,Christians hide there Faith in turkey!!
m00se321 1 year ago 3
@m00se321 LEARN AND READ MY FRIEND. BEFORE YOU SPEAK. IF YOU LOOK INTO THE GREATEST LEADERS OF ISLAM YOU WILL FIND THAT ISLAM TAUGHT US TO BE TOLERANT TOWARDS JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS LONG AS THEY AGREED TO RESPECT AND FOLLOWED SHARIA WITHIN OR STATE. THEY COULD ALWAYS LEAVE. YOU CAN ONLY BLAME THE LEADERS AND THOSE WHO LACK PROPER SOUND ISLAMIC KNOWLEDGE AND ARE ACTING AGAINST THE RULINGS OF ISLAM. TURKEY LACKS PROPER ISLAMIC RULING AND LEADERS. SO DONT BLAME ISLAM. BLAME THE LEADERS.
ServantoftheTRUEGOD 1 year ago
The Minarite in Islamic countries was,and is always used for Power in the Territory -FACT!!!!!!
m00se321 1 year ago 2
There is no Freedom, of Religion under ISLAM,,just visit Saudia Arabia,Libya,Iran ,Egpyt,Sudan,Pakistan,the Christians are hiding!!And Egypt only allows so many Churchs to be built ,thats afact!!
m00se321 1 year ago 3
Swiss Power!
sturmtiger848 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
someone tell this Schluer that swiss women were not even allowed to vote until a few years ago, these swiss are pure hypocrites
trevgk 1 year ago
@trevgk
"A few years ago...", 39 years ago to be precise... well ok, that is a stain on the Swiss democracy... But otherwise it sure is outstanding and unique in the world!
And of course people can make wiser and less wise decisions...
The last vote certainly had several reasons...
Schluer is a jerk, no question... but don't lump together the people of a hole nation...!
Thanks for a little more ingenious comments in the future...
rei1vindicatio 1 year ago 4
swiss brag about patience and tolerance but just look at all the aggressive swiss replies below, real 2 faced hypocrites. I guess that's neutral contradiction.
trevgk 1 year ago
Muslim immigrants went to swiss hence they wanted to escape islamic repression in their own coutry, that repression made them very poor society, undeveloped and uneducated. Now they want that same Islam in country where they escaped, and laws which go with islam mentality. It is very dubiose situation.
KarelYalek 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Ask the so called Moderate muslim to:
1) recognise the equality of man and women (no arranged marriages= muslim women can marry non muslim men)
2) equality of muslims and no-muslims (not only here but in muslim countries).
3) renounce completely to the concept of Jhiad.
That day, only that day, islam might be accepted.
stepeannan 1 year ago
moslems can pack up their fuckin' islam in all the western countries, and fuck the hell off back to mecca where they belong. Who the hell left the cage door open and let them escape?
islamsucksallah 1 year ago
Comment removed
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
Largest religion minority is a leftist designation. Don't let them fool you. islam is not the largest religeous minority, it is the biggest religeous menace!!!
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
There is no integration into any western society by muslims,none what so ever because your so called religion does not allow for you to mix with none believers.You are all liars and the Swiss have seen you for what you are,LIARS.
Our civilised culture does not require the likes of islam for it is nothing more than a political belief with a political goal.
If you want minarets,go to an islamic country,its that easy.
But you want our welfare ,don`t you.
islam is a total and utter disgrace
naybobdenod 2 years ago
I couldn't say it better. They want our welfare, education, medical facilities, technology, public safety, housing etc etc.
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
Hey mustafa whatever, you're ignorant, you cannot appeal to the european court of human rights until you exploited every national court, and since matters of public vote cannot be brought in court you are my friend, powerless.
Gotta love bureaucracy :P
matrixch88 2 years ago 2
We will find a modus to make islam powerless in the intire world.
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
ı coulde understood u,so..we don't wanna here immigrants and u don't wanna there..yes u right..simple
holymoses1611 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Islamic takeover of Europe this time is mostly peaceful (a 'flower war' jihad), with the benefit of having peaceful Muslims in favour of expansionism too (or leastways not caring.)
That's why the Swiss referendum result was not just about minarets, though most people anywhere in Europe may not feel safe enough to admit as much.
Paste this title into the bar for some encouraging Public opinion: ISLAMIFICATION OF SWITZERLAND STALLED BY POPULAR VOTE!
TheDustpile 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I ran across the following in the "Swiss Minaret ban " search. It's a talk show with call-ins. I thought the conversation was interesting. Those guys sure know their Koran and Bible.
"The Swiss Minaret Ban" watch?v=VI92y29kr5I
It consists of fifteen (15) clips that can be downloaded to mp4. If a sentence of a speaker is interrupted by a station break or the end of a clip. The sentence will be repeated on the following clip.
BoudiccaBlanc 2 years ago
KOSOVO AND METOHIJA IS SERBIA !
NO bloody albanian killers in EUROPE !
AntonPolunin 2 years ago
Free Kosovo. Holland stands behind Serbia and Kosovo!
frisianmekkabasher 2 years ago
holand commited srebernica, in one single day you killed 10,000 boys and men,
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
@PrishtinaHottiee, So what? It were 10.000 MUSLEM boys and men. We didn't pulled the trigger but so what if we did? Personaly to me i don't give a rats ass about 10.000 MUSLEM men. To me they are all equally worthless.
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
no just telling you, that you will go down in history as being genocide perpetrators. World is changing. "dont ever use your 2 minutes, as vengeance when you can" this is a islamic saying, 500 years you could build churches, and practice, your time came, we wait for our time.
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
I know that islam will wait till it is islam-time. But islam can wait until hell freezes over because it will never happen. In 50 years the world will know islam only from dusty history-books and a great middle eastern parking lot.
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
once upon the time pope said "world is flat and there can not be any other way because the bibel said so", but the islamic scalars proved him wrong in 8th century. "Never" is a word you never use when dealing with politics, not in a dynamic universe where nothing is "never".
GOD BLESS THE 11 MILION MUSLIM EUROPEANS IN BALKANS.
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
Once upon a time the prophet of islam, mohammed the pedopile, said to drink camelurine, behead people who are non muslem, to do taqiyya and had sex with his dead aunt who was already in the grave. The pope is a selfcalled right hand of God on earth and has nothing to do with believe. He is the leader of catholic religion. Your attempt to ridiculize christianity was in vain but please stop islamic terror on peaceloving christians and other believes. GOD BLESS ALL NON MUSLEM PEOPLE ON EARTH.
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
oh you just proved you have personalty disorder, so no need to continue with you, you are just dumb, unable to keep a conversation without bias. Stereotypes and generalizations work well for someone like you.
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
Of course I have a personality disorder. You can't insult me with your "hobby-psychology". I don't even want you to keep conversation with me. You are a muslem and i do not talk to people of satan. Non the less mohammed is still a pedophile. What can you do about it?
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
BTW. I did some research and their were arabians (arabians are not especially muslems and even more in 8 century) But they coudn't prove it. If islam has such great scientists, just name One!!! pioneering scientific research from the last 5 centuries. I dare you!!! (do not mention the bombgirdle)
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
islam is the reason you have civilization in europe, you monkey, uneducated idiot, you would have still been in dark ages, you wouldn't be able to use the computer, because the arithmetic language is based on zero discovered by arabs. Dont reply to me, you are not in my level to converse. Bye idiot.
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
TAQIYYA ones more! The rich Arab culture brought early culture to the world but they were not the only people who did it. It was pre-islam Arab culture. islam has nothing to do with that. Nowadays islam brings only terror en inbread, lies, discrimination etc etc. To me you are just a subhuman just like mohammed the pedophile and you may adres me as nobel crusader. Understood, you ignorant lowlife muslem untermensch! BTW were is the islamic pioneering scientific research I asked for? hahaha!
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
@PrishtinaHottiee
We have civilisation in europe before the islam exists, and the computer was invented by a german
diego1234504 1 year ago
read my my comment again, do you suffer from dislecsia? I mean is written very well. Your civilization was a DARK AGE one before islam came.
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
Europe was in a dark age in the medieval but not before, and in the medieval we had the first contact with islam.
diego1234504 1 year ago
hahhah go get educated.
PrishtinaHottiee 1 year ago
PristinaHottie...please if you're really European (if you're really from Pristina) . What Diego meant is: islam was nothing at the time the Greek (your supposed neighbours) and the Persian Civilization alredy existed. They were just bedouin thiefs
stepeannan 1 year ago
true and i am indeed very thankful that i dont have to use roman numbers
but i belive that the muslim world now is the underdeveloped one seeing that you dont have many laws brought forward by the western world that boost peace and prosperty.
swissyodler 1 year ago
Its common misconception the numbers we use were invented by arabs. They were invented in pre-islamic India. The arabs, who had trade contacts with the Indians only borrowed them.
They're not underdeveloped, they own big money (partly) invested in Swiss banks, so, what's their contribution to "...boost peace and prosperty"?
stepeannan 1 year ago
perhaps that we dont try to enforce our culture by brutal force but by dialogue and compromise
swissyodler 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
When you say "..to enforce our culture by brutal force.." what are you referring to exactly? I frankly don't see such a situation here in Europe. I rather see the opposite: London 7/11, Madrid 2/15 etc.
Though I'm in broad agreement that a ban is not a good idea but isn't the bigger picture that we have a transparently obvious clash of civilisations that no amount of diversity promotion or "dialogue and compromise" (so far, unwanted by islamists on a serious basis) is going to reconcile?
stepeannan 1 year ago
NO islam in EUROPE!
frisianmekkabasher 1 year ago
Wild ALBANIAN MUSLIM animal(ibraghim shkupolly) in a shooting kills
in Finland !
love islam =) love terrorists... love jihad...
love sharia law...
open your eyes !
AntonPolunin 2 years ago
2 January 2010, 04:50 hrs:- I have just heard from BBC News that a Somali Islamist tried to kill a Danish cartoonist in his own home because "he insulted his prophet".
Still we are not banning moslems, the moslem religion, or moslem houses of worship in our countries.
tanjatanya 2 years ago
I think the decision had positive and negative results. On the negative it definitely will help alienate and isolate further a minority. I find it a stupid argument allowing minarets will have the imposition of Sharia law as a direct consequence, I don't get it.
On the positive I think it serves as a wakeup call to Muslims to not take European freedom for granted and learn to examine themselves and communities to drive out the extremists that used Europe as a safe haven for their extreme ideas.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - You can see in 19th century lithographs the damage they inflicted on the Parthenon with the addition of the minarets. They were removed after the Othomans were forced out of Greece.
Today, a stage has been reached where to humour them any further equates with doing them a disservice. Ironically it was the docile Swiss who had the courage to highlight the problem.
Note that German Jews were fully intergrated and did not stand out in any way, in attire, language, looks etc.
tanjatanya 2 years ago 3
@tanjatanya: Remember this is the 21st century and this is Europe. I don't understand why you're citing historical events that happened in the 19th century when Europe supposedly moved away from this and is setting an example. What do muslims in Switzerland have to do with what the Ottomans to St. Sophia. What do they have to do with what's happening in Saudi Arabia. Do you think there isn't enough examples of Muslims being oppressed under dictatorships with non-Muslim majority?
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
@NotSoLiberal - Re: "Muslims bein oppressed under dictatorships with non-Muslim majority"
In Cyprus the Turkish minority with the support of Turkey have occupied almost half of the northern part of the island. This was not in the 19th century but in 1974, and are still there.
The properties of the Greeks are sold to foreign developers - mainly Israeli. The Greek churches are systematically dismantled and the Byzantine fixtures are being sold abroad this very moment.
klearchosklearchou 2 years ago 2
NotSoLiberal - @ "What do muslims in Switzerland have to do with St Sophia"
Firstly, they are Turks.
Secondly, they are anxious to take offence because the Swiss people came to a democratic decision not to allow the erection of any more structures unique to moslem culture which are alien to them esthetically and culturally - inspite of the fact that they come from a country which demostrated utter contempt for other people's religion and culture after invading and occupying their country.
tanjatanya 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - @ Your statement that we live in the 21st century:
Exactly! Moslems are welcome to make use of our 21st century facilities: Democracy, laws, education, and stop persisting on what their prophets wrote down following conversations they had with angels and archangels in the desert 1500 years ago. I respect someones mental state and how he wants to cope with it. But I shall NEVER change my way of life to suit theirs.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Friends?
tanjatanya 2 years ago
Listen I understand we're all humans and the many incidents of extremists and old history it is natural to expect some irrational reaction. But Europe has become the haven of tolerance and acceptance and unfortunately that Europe is turning into an extremist right wing nation just by the action of a few. I understand freedom is granted to minorities but unfortunately this is one unpromising step towards more radical steps. Especially with gap widening by such decision.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - Re: " ... freedom is granted to minorities but ..."
We live in countries where freedom is not "granted" because it is nobody's to "grant". In our part of the World all citizens enjoy equal rights and are all equal before the Law. We find "blasphemy laws" unbecoming and outdated. We do not kill people who make jokes about religion, saints and angels on tv or any other media. We do not burn books and bookshops as during the Sulman Rushdie affair with his Satanic Verses.
dagmar1991 2 years ago 4
Are all Christian countries held accountable for that? Two wrongs don't make a right. Why are you saying that German Jews are fully integrated in attire language, looks, etc and not Muslims? What was the guy in the video wearing? You keep imagining one version of Muslims that is long bearded in white long . Definitely not the majority. What language do you think they're speaking? Your comments are just bigoted.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
@NotSoLiberal - The thoughts that come to mind when the word Turk is mentioned are: massacre, genocide and destruction: Armenian Massacre; Istanbul Pogrom of 1955 where Greek properties were destroyed and 135,000 Greeks were thrown out of the country without any form of compensation, men and children were butchered and women raped; the invasion of Cyprus and the continuous occupation in full contempt for international law.
Inspite of everything we still sympathised and helped in Yugoslavia!
klearchosklearchou 2 years ago
@NotSoLiberal - Re: "Are Christian countries held accountable ... ?"
If they ill-treat any minority group then they ought to be held responsible!
Re: "Two wrongs don't make a right"
Certainly! But in which way have the Europeans wronged the moslems? Why can't moslems come to a European country and intergrate like everyone else? Why do they have to bring their 5th century laws and customs with them which are a formula for disaster.
klearchosklearchou 2 years ago
@ klearchosklearchou : We can go back and forth over who did what over the course of history. Since you're from Yugoslavia I remind of the Srebrenica massacre. I can remind you of Muslim countries being colonized in the not too far past and plenty of atrocities committed there. If you're gonna speak history there were so many events.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - I do not know how you deduced that I am "Yugoslavian". I used the example of Yugoslavia to demostrate that inspite of what the Turks did in Europe, including their collaboration with the Nazis during the occupation of the region, we (Europeans) still helped them.
klearchosklearchou 2 years ago 5
Not all Muslims are Turks. The majority of Muslims who travel to Switzerland want to enjoy the freedom in Europe live their lives while preserving part of their identity. Going to the mosque doesn't necessarily mean the desire to kill infidels or apply Shria law. There are plenty of Chruches in the Muslim world. Egypt is an example. Imagine if Egypt has banned the display of the cross or the image of Jesus or the cathedral dome just because they bring memories of the Crusades. BS my friend.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - Re: Banning the cross or the image of Jesus;
The cross is an instrument of agonising death. I would feel the same for a guillotine or a hangman's noose.
Re: Crusaders:
They used religion in the same way as the barbaric hordes of Othomans that invaded Europe.
It would be unfair, however, to forbid anyone practising the religion of their choice - as long as it does not involve cruelty, such as human sacrifice, mutilation, flogging, stoning, decapitation, etc.
tanjatanya 2 years ago 10
@tanjatanya : I never defended the Crusades until I debated with muslims. However, since terrorism is never a inspired by coran and suicide bombers are bad muslims (just wonder why hamas is alway celebrating them) I changed my perspective. The Crusades were legitimate defensive wars against muslim oppression. The deplorable atrocities committed were by definition not the acts of Christians as the teaching of Christ forbids it. And you know that this perspective is a valid one.
januk36 1 year ago
NotSoLiberal - @ BS
What do you mean?
tanjatanya 2 years ago
tanjatanya, the BS was meant for me.
He/she means Bull S--t
klearchosklearchou 2 years ago
klearchosklearchou - If that's what it means, it's not at all nice of our learned friend!
euridike88 2 years ago 3
I agree! Bad language is unnecessary and weakens one's moral stance!
dagmar1991 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - Re: Egypt:
I would be more concerned about violation of human rights, in Egypt, and their servillity towards the US as regards their co-operation in Extraordinary Rendition, rather than the observance of abstract religious symbols that cause more division than unity.
Re: Image of Jesus:
I am not into idolatry! At any rate the image looks more Gothic than Semitic - as it is supposed to be.
I hope that "BS" is not a rude acronym - in which case I depart!
tanjatanya 2 years ago 8
@tanjatanya : You are right. As for as idolatry is concerned I'm alway puzzled at muslims worshipping a black stone in the desert....
januk36 1 year ago
NotSoLiberal - @ My reference to German Jews.
I wanted to emphasise that in the 1930s a group of people who did not look different from any other group in Europe and spoke the language of their country without an accent were made a target for percecution. Unlike them, the moslems, do not mix, are high profile and aggressively different and are also anxious to take offence. People are beginning to find them tiresome and are less welcoming towards them. Use history as an indicator.
tanjatanya 2 years ago
I agree Muslims need to integrate more and remember Muslims had been in Europe over much fewer years than Jews in Europe. Unfortunately such decision doesn't help with integration and adds to more isolation.
"following conversations they had with angels and archangels in the desert 1500 years ago"
You seem to forget that this describes Christianity as well. Nobody asked a change of your way of life. They asked for some respect to their place of worship.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - @ "... this describes Christianity as well."
Ofcourse it does! After all Christianity too is an Abrahamic religion - i.e. a Jewish sect founded on the premise that a criminal running away from Chaldea with his band of brigands, harems, camels, mules and goats, heard voices in the desert asking him to go and take over someone else's land.
From this you can deduce that I am not critical of moslems as a "christian". I find what is happening in Palestine despicable! Turks don't!
tanjatanya 2 years ago 2
especially when you say "esthetically offensive" because for many they are a beautiful architectural innovation even though it doesn't really matter for the sake of the argument.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
@NotSoLiberal - Something unfamiliar to our culture is often esthetically offensive. I agree with her. I would respect your views if you find Christian churches esthetically offensive and I can not think of any European in his right mind who would want to build a cathedral in the middle of a Turkish or Arabic city.
As she pointed out there are no restrictions in the number of mosques for the faithful to worship.
It is an established fact: minarets are associated with violence!
klearchosklearchou 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - @ My reference to the minarets being esthetically offensive:
The places which we inhabit are extremely important for our psychological health. Architecture differs from country to country. Even within the same city, or neighbourhood, the place where we choose to live in to protect us from the elements is slightly different from the one next door. However, architecture remains within the frame that makes our neighbourhoods, countries and cities unique and our own.
tanjatanya 2 years ago
@tanjatanya: I still can't find it and I strongly doubt that the Filipino gov would let this happen esp with the large Saudi dependence on Filipinos.
Also a place of minority worship shouldn't be offensive to people because it is naturally different especially when you think there's only 4 minarets over whole Switzerland. Would you think the same if Jewish synagogues had a big star of David on top. I would agree if they become too many but 4?
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
@NotSoLiberal - Re: The Philippino executions:
If that incident is all that is needed to confirm the Saudis stance try the BBC. I could have given you other examples. If I were to refer to it in an essay I would ofcourse have made given proper citations.
Re: Jewish synagogues:
Yes I would think the same even if they didn't have the star - unless ofcourse they were there before I chose to go and live in the house next door. The same for a Christian church!
tanjatanya 2 years ago 2
***Correction: Excessive word:
OMIT: "made" - in the 4th line.
READ: I would ofcourse have given proper citations
tanjatanya 2 years ago
Plus I couldn't find any source on the Internet for the beheading story.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal: @ The Philippino beheadings:
The incident would be easy to trace if you are a serious researcher. I used that example because it is still vivid in my memory. I was in a boarding school for girls in Switzerland at the time, and the nuns held a special service when the news came through. Perhaps the incident attracted more publicity in the West than in the Philippines. Perhaps the cowardly and barbaric Saudi action wouldn't have taken place if the worshippers were European.
tanjatanya 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"islam is not a religion, it is a criminal organisation and must be forbidden. In koran sure 9.30 they require genocide on christians and jews. The muslim terror is just the fulfilling of the Koran and a logical consequence of mohammed cruel propaganda"
MrChBernhart 2 years ago 2
If you love your minarets so much why don't you stay in your country Turkey or move to Iran?
Leave Europeans live with their own culture!
saddelback 2 years ago 4
When Mehmet Ali Agca, who represented a group of Turkish extremists,
tried to assassinate Pope John in 1981 not a single Christian called for revenge against the Turks or their fellow moslems. Yet, they are threatening to blow us up on account of allegedly "blasphemous" cartoons.
Islam must be the most insecure religion that ever existed since it is so easily offended!
Since they find our countries so displeasing, then why don't they stay in their fly-ridden paradise amongst their kind?
tanjatanya 2 years ago 15
@tanjatanya
Thank you for your accurate assessment.
Common sense is always a good thing--too often lost in this ridiculous age of political correctness.
GammaSigmaBeta 2 years ago 7
@tanjatanya: It's funny you talk about insecurity when this whole minaret ordeal is a great sign of insecurity on part of the Swiss. All the western values that you mentioned are welcomed and acknowledged by many Muslims who live inside and outside Switzerland. Why are the Swiss insecure in the power of their laws and society to isolate the extremists and welcome the moderates. Unfortunately the ban of Minarets sends a message to both sides that you are not welcomed here irregardless
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago
Not'SoLiberal - There is no restriction as to the number of places of worship that they choose to have. The restriction is on the tall structures they call minarets. All over Eastern Europe numerous Christian churches have been converted into mosques and had minarets added on them. St Sophia in Istambul is a good example.
In the 1990s in Saudi Arabia a group of Christian Catholic Philippino workers were decapitated for meeting in a private house for the purpose of worship.
Compare!
tanjatanya 2 years ago
NotSoLiberal - Surely the esthetically offensive minaret structures must have some special significance to them in terms of manifesting "authority" or marking their territory in a canine fashion. They have a very long tradition in doing so.
Even the Parthenon on the Athenian Acropolis, the most significant building in Western architecture, reflecting democratic ideals in the City where Democracy was conceived, was desecrated with the addition of 4 minarets in order to establish their authority!
tanjatanya 2 years ago 2
Comment removed
tanjatanya 2 years ago
If my religion involves drinking a glass of wine during religious ceremonies then I won't practise my religion during a visit to a country which is under islamic dictatorship where wine is forbidden.
tanjatanya 2 years ago 12
Yes, our democracy guarantees free religious expression to all. At the same time our democracy forbids sex with children, female circumcision, ill treatment of women, polygamy, and "honour killings".
It is imperative that Religion needs to be redefined now that these people come to live in our countries. An act of violence should not be allowed on the basis that it is dictated by what a bunch of raving lunatics call their "holy book"!
tanjatanya 2 years ago 14
fuck islam
they dont respect our religion so dont respect theirs
djuwell 2 years ago 4
WHuhhuhhuhhuhuhuhuhuh blaaarabjibbnbjabn3jrjweojaowetj aowt wotjwj oij jj oiwejiowjojt oiwjt iowjowrtj oiwjweoij oitj iojmreworej ibfjifjogjrio jreoijriojiorj tiojrt iorir eijij ier
tomislav80 2 years ago
hahahahahha....Go Switzerland!!!
SWITZERLAND = 1
ISLAM = 0
Fuck Islam...I want to flush it down the toilet!!
FiREFLYSerenity408 2 years ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
i ve always loved swizerland , and ive always consider this country as heaven on earth , but now all this believed i had vanished away.. pffffff im so surprised!!
dudizmo 2 years ago
Islam is mad because someone, somewhere stood up against them. Britain already sold out when they allowed Sharia law to take place in over 80 towns/cities in there own land! WTF?When a nation loses it's laws ,lands and customs is'nt that called an invasion?Whole towns and villages are being taken over by muslims who then intimidate & scare the local people off their land. That is what is happening all over Europe right now. Congrats to the Swiss for starting the ball to roll. Back off Islam!
rckn4ever 2 years ago 28
well said congratulations to swiss
djuwell 2 years ago 2
The Swiss Minaret Ban: The Other Side of the Story. Part 1....
watch?v=wuuK4gCGtD8
(Documentation re: bias, killing & repression of Christians in "Islamic" countries!)
BoudiccaBlanc 2 years ago 3
BBC CEEFAX Page 163 Wed Dec 04:31
A 54-year-old Muslim man, from Woolwich, south-east London, was jailed because he organised a Muslim wedding ceremony, illegal in the UK, between his 16-year-old son and his 12-year-old cousin and then with the little girl's father asked the boy to rape her.
At Wood Green Crown Court the boy got an 18-month supervision order for rape.
Question:- Does anyone think that interfering with Muslim customs, such as child rape, is undemocratic?
Just asking!
sylviaphryne 2 years ago 18
Sylvia - BBC CEEFAX Page 163 Wed 23 Dec 05:25:
Both fathers of the two Muslim children have been jailed for 3 years for inciting children to engage in sexual activity following a Muslim marriage between children which is illegal in the UK.
It seems that the reputation of Great Britain will suffer abroad for showing such disrespect towards Islam and for violating the inalienable right of Muslims to practise their religion freely!
tanjatanya 2 years ago 16
Filthy buggers! A 3-year jail sentence is nothing! I hope that the children are now in the care of the social services.
lykauges 2 years ago 17
Dirty bastards! In their morning papers there will be protests about "religious suppression".
tzanabetys 2 years ago 13
This comment has received too many negative votes show
50 signs of judgement day!, it will say the muslims will take over Roman Empire(europe).
/watch?v=GFQlbBgCjhA
in the 21th centuary you cant take someone's land anymore.
If Turks join EU, we conquered europe ^^.
xFantasyartx 2 years ago
turkey will never join eu!! sorry pal... hahaha
Menatz 2 years ago 5
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ha ha ha the swiss are funny people ...so what if they going to make a minaret.let them make minarets there paying for it ,more jobs to create good for economy..more building construction...swiss needs to learn respect for othher religions.
TheDavidstanley 2 years ago
@TheDavidstanley
ISLAM NEEDS TO LEARN RESPECT FOR OTHER RELIGIONS!
BoudiccaBlanc 2 years ago 20
At the Old Bailey, today, another Turkish father Mehmet, 49, was convicted of murder and sent to jail because he murdered his daughter.
Are we racists because we do not approve of "honour killings"? Why should we have to accept despicable, beastly, barbaric practices like that in the street where we live, so that we won't be lebelled as racists.
The above incident is reported in the Front Page of BBC News. There is also a video report on the same page {17 December 2009}.
tanjatanya 2 years ago 12
Yes! This must be the third Turkish "honour killing" that reached the Old Bailey in less than a year in London.
If by being disgusted with such practices makes us "racist" then let it be! I am not prepared to approve of the killing of young girls just because they refuse female circumcision or because they resist arranged marriages - or for any other reason.
dagmar1991 2 years ago 17
Tanja - I've read it! She was only 15 years old. What kind of a sick person can kill his daughter for behaving like her fellow European girls at school? These are the people who want to be accepted in the EU. I think that a stage has been reached where we must ask as to whether Democracy comes with an inbuilt self-destuction mechanism. We brought it on ourselves. Our democratic system is their most effective weapon!
dagmar1991 2 years ago 17
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you are talking ridicilous..you do not have such thins in Europe..i went to München,Salzburg and Prague last summer..people in there are very cold however Turks are very sincerely..
TrYasmin 2 years ago
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Hilarious to see "europeans" doing the same things they accuse other people do ..
this incident shows that they are made of the same stuff as the rest of the world
nothing special ....
choosing the easiest way out has always been the action of people incapable of
providing solutions ..
so much for them !..
fan5x 2 years ago
fan5x - @ "europeans" doing the same things they accuse other people do .. [sic]
What "same things" do you have in mind?
When have you last heard of anyone, in Europe, being condemned to public flogging, stoning, decapitation, or a girl to be raped by all men in the village as an example for other "bad girls"?
We stand against a religion that forms the basis of such morality - whatever that religion might be!
dagmar1991 2 years ago 12
@fan5x:- @ ... people incapable of providing solutions:
The "Armenian solution", as well as the Istambul pogrom of 1955, were hardly "provided" by capable people.
Germany apologized for what the Nazis did, yet the Turks are unrepentant to this day about the Armenian genocide, the Instambul pogrom, and the invasion of Cyprus as well as the illegal occupation of more than one third of the island!
euridike88 2 years ago 12
For me the issue is simple. In democratic societies, the majority decides. Surely one can have many discussions about the ramifications from banning a type of building, religious or other. But the majority still decides. People who have decided to move to Switzerland should respect that. Sure they can use all the legal procedures allowed to attempt to change the result, if they think they can. But they should always remember to respect the laws of the country they decided to make their home.
majortom51970 2 years ago 16
Hear, hear!
dagmar1991 2 years ago 4
Like the slavery abolition, society needs to reach a point when we abolish the international slavery of sweatshop labor by Western multinational corporations.Free trade has only allowed all the power in the world to be given to one actor, multinational corporations.
fromwilliams 2 years ago
Bad employment conditions and exploitation of children has been exposed by the West without the slightest response from moslem countries. Inspite of unethical practices employed by Turkish carpet manufacturers broadcasted on British TV, still the present government is trying to facilitate the inclusion of Turkey into the EU.
Importers of goods from 3rd world countries are required to specify as to whether child labour was used for their production.
sylviaphryne 2 years ago 8
Comment removed
sylviaphryne 2 years ago
If your interested in slavery then you'll be interested in
Wal-Mart + Nike = Slavery
Millions of child slave labor is being used all over the world to produce quality name brands by Western Corporations, Nike, The GAP, Nordstrom, The Limited, Wal-Mart, Kmart, J.C. Penney and so on and so on are all guilty of forcing children into working for nearly nothing.
fromwilliams 2 years ago