Wagner is drama, pure strength, full range , Wagner is hard to conduct, very demanding for orchestra cause instrumentalist doesnt have pure harmony,atonality is big in Wagners works, they need to be extremely focused, and for signer the same.
I m wagnerian baritone and for me and my other colegues Wagner is always great chalenge.. Many here wrote how you dont have support in others composers of orchestra like in Wagner, its easyer to sing with quiet orchestra, when you are operatic singer you trained your voice and thats not great chalenge if you practiced your role enough. Staying focused and sing your ass off with giant orch. thats very difficult. Very! Role of Norma is considered hard cause you sing long and you use all range.
L. Lehman said that she found easier to sing the entire Tetralogie that one Norma; Callas said about the same, explaining that for Wagner, a giant orchestra was carrying you and it's just a question of physical resistance, but for Bellini the voice is in first line and you have no help, no support. I think they really knew what they were talking about. And about J. S. singing Wagner, don't forget that in Wagner's time, "wagnerian voices" didn't exist; Wagner appreciated Garcia singing school.
Dame Joan is my favourite soprano and Wagner is my favourite composer, I think her voice was at it´s best in the late 70s because it had darkened and sounded even better, more dramatic. For me "Joan Sutherland sings Wagner" is the best record she ever did. Joan Sutherland and Richard Wagner....Poor Bayreuth.
It is a favorite of mine as well, and if heard by naysayers, provides good evidence that she had an instrument and timbre very suitable for some Wagnerian roles.
I think Dame Joan had loads of stamina, certainly until age caught up with her. She sang many vocally demanding roles, including Norma, who is on stage all evening long.
She could have handled some Wagnerian roles, there is no doubt of that in the minds of those that knew her voice well.
@Hako2004 Then the question remains why she does obviously not use it here......
Ye,s you need staming for Norma. But having stamina for Norma will not say you have it for Wagner; The long lyric lines of Norma are spun above a light orchestra, completely different from here. If you think she does this equally well as Norma you disqualify her Norma.
@martello79 Are you insinuating that singing long lyric lines under a light orchestra is easy ??? Norma is a monster which I've seen devour many a Wagnerian soprani! In many ways much more difficult than Wagner, in some ways not.
@Operafiend22 No I am not insinuating that and I did not write anywhere ever that JS only could sing ESAY things. But I do think that singing long lyric lines above light orchestration does require a different instrument then above a Wagnerian one and vice versa.. JS did excellate in the bel canto repertoire and I think she was less suitable for these kind of Wagnerian roles.
As far as I can remember, I think I read somewhere that she regarded Kirsten Flagstad as her greatest role model in the early years. It was Richard Bonynge who later "spoiled" her dreams and helped her become what she became. So you are probably right. :)
Voice classification is new. Wagner wanted to create a Wagner voice school in Bayreuth, though never did. Like Mozart, he chose singers who could sing the part sometimes writing for them.
Herman Klein writes about famous Wagner cycles in Her Majesty's Theatre London.Two series of the Ring were given. In the first, Therese Vogl sang Brünnhilde and Hedwig Reicher-Kindermann sang Fricka. In the second series, some days later, Vogl sang Sieglinde and R-K Brünnhilde without destroyng their voices.
This is certainly what we learn in books (Rudolf Kloiber "Handbuch der Oper", François-René Tranchefort "L'Opéra de Tristan à nos jours". But the bottom line is: can the voice of the person do it? Is the quality of the sound in line with the character?Mozart wrote low A and high C for Susanna because Nancy Store could do it.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. I think that the sheer size of the Wagnerian orchestra in Walkure is just too big/heavy for a lyric. A lyric, I think, would be simply covered at many of the climatic parts, such as at O hehrstes Wunder...Maybe it is possible in studio (like how Margaret Price sang Isolde), but not live.
Have you the excuse of youth or of a psychotic need to always be right?
1. In this extract A flat is the top note.
2. In the last act there are indeed two B flats (A#)"screamed" on words like 'retten' (rescue me) and 'schirmt' (protect) and several As mostly on i/e vowels.
3. At the dramatic climax "O herrliche Wunder" her Gs and As are usually overwhelmed by the orchestra.
4. The first Sieglinde was T. Vogl whom Wagner (or Mottl) classed as "Tiefesopran" (deep or low soprano).
Man now that is how it should be sung next to NIlsson and Farrell. She was a True Dramatic Soprano with an extended end in the high range!! Lets also Not to forget she had an Incredible Breath support!!
wooooooooooo la sutherland canta un wagner espectacular!!!! porke se decidio por los rigidos papeles del bel canto y handel, bueno, la Stupenda y Wagner, me gusto la combinacion
Ella tenia problemas con su registro agudo en el repertorio de Wagner y Verismo, pero en el bel canto y baroque sus sobreagudos salian tan facil como tomarse un vaso de agua. Por eso Richard penso que seria bueno llevarla en esa direccion.
Wish Joan had had some time for some Wagner on stage(WHEN???)...Joan didn't have to really change anything to sing more dramatic roles.She used aLOT of her huge voice in bel canto roles as well...I'll never forget live how she soared above chorus,soloists and orchestra(levels above!) at the end of Lucia Sextet in London...NEVER forget that even so many years later.
She did the same in Philly over chorus. orchestra and then after the Sextet the Finale of the act. 60 singers and a 79 piece orchestra and Joan like a beautiful comet soaring over everthing. I can relate to your thrill.
A little clarification that Joan could sing over practically a jet engine, couldn't a microphone be stuck really close to lesser singers so they could have the same effect? What I mean, is did Joan use microphones during her concerts / performances, or did she just project like crazy?
1 La Sonnambula 1 I Puritani 2 Lucias 2 Maria Stuartas, 2 Normas 2 Traviatas, 3 recitals all Phila Academy of Music. 1 Gala in Baltimore Md (Orch and 4 YES FOUR Mad scenes and her last recital at the Met in NY. NEVER and mike and she had a HUGE voice. Her D's E's and Ebs were OMG and sent the audience into a frenzy. And OVER full orchestra and chorus! Watch the interview where Natalie Dessay comments on her. Intresting! First heard her in 1961 to 1988 Will check the Ticket!
I sing some Wagner, and I'm not sure I agree. You can drown anyone with Wagner off course, but the tempo and the dynamics are the conductors. It wouldn't be easy, but I think it's possible for some of Wagner. I think it requires a very large voice that can soar above the orchestration, and a conductor that understands the limits of singers voice.
Haha. Funny. Sutherland was frequently bare-footed in the recording studio....one foot wrapped around the ankle of the other....or on tip-toe for a high note.
You know what's weird? In my head, I always thought that people dressed up for these recordings just like they would for a recital. Sigh. So dense sometimes....
I'm quite sure Sutherland would have been a remarkable Sieglinde, Elisabeth or even Isolde. Her Wagner Album has one of the most beautiful "Du bist der Lenz" I've ever heard, indeed! IMO she had an ideal dramatic voice for some of the lighter Wagner roles, since it was suave, smooth and romantic and simultaneously powerful, slightly metallic (in the 70's) and creamy. It's a pity she never recorded a complete major Wagner role!
drdre333 you are absolutely correct about Wagner's wishes. He really asked that his music be sung beautifully, which it frequently is not, power and penetration being the single goal for some sopranos.
Yes... but it is impossible with that orchestration to sing like it is bel canto. Who´s going to hear a singer singing bel canto in those Wagner roles with that huge orquestration?... Nobody. Just an ideal of him. Everybody says the same after he said but nobody sings that was because there´s no way of doing it.
I know she had a Wagner album, but have not been able to find it. Discontinued for sure, although I think it's included in the latest CD compilation to Sutherland... One must always remember that Wagner meant his music to be beautifully sung, like Bellini. It's great to hear a great bel canto voice such as Dame Joan's in this music.
Most people have no idea that Dame Joan sings Wagner. She sang Wagner long before she ever saw the score for Lucia. Thanks for this. I once had her Wagner album, loved it, and should replace it.
This is true. In her early years at Covent Garden they started grooming as a dramatic soprano, no doubt due to the size and fullness of her tone. It was her good friend, at the time, Bonynge who heard her potential as a coloratura. To think how different it all may have become!
I love Joan's reaction when the recording is finished. It shows that she has given the aria everything.
vocalissimo1 1 month ago
@Turridu25 Actually, earlier in her career she sung Wagner and later on her husband and the Royal Opera got her into the bel canto roles.
violinistx100 7 months ago
Wagner is drama, pure strength, full range , Wagner is hard to conduct, very demanding for orchestra cause instrumentalist doesnt have pure harmony,atonality is big in Wagners works, they need to be extremely focused, and for signer the same.
ArchiducDeBelgrade 1 year ago
I m wagnerian baritone and for me and my other colegues Wagner is always great chalenge.. Many here wrote how you dont have support in others composers of orchestra like in Wagner, its easyer to sing with quiet orchestra, when you are operatic singer you trained your voice and thats not great chalenge if you practiced your role enough. Staying focused and sing your ass off with giant orch. thats very difficult. Very! Role of Norma is considered hard cause you sing long and you use all range.
ArchiducDeBelgrade 1 year ago
Soy un gran afortunado de haberla escuchado personalmente.
Que viva la Stupenda!!!!!
Querida Joan por favor no te olvides de enseñarle a cantar a los angeles!
Te llevare siempre en mi corazon y nunca te apartaras de mi mente como la voz del siglo!!!!
acitipo 1 year ago
L. Lehman said that she found easier to sing the entire Tetralogie that one Norma; Callas said about the same, explaining that for Wagner, a giant orchestra was carrying you and it's just a question of physical resistance, but for Bellini the voice is in first line and you have no help, no support. I think they really knew what they were talking about. And about J. S. singing Wagner, don't forget that in Wagner's time, "wagnerian voices" didn't exist; Wagner appreciated Garcia singing school.
bpicaud1 1 year ago 4
RIP La Stupenda. may your voice lead the angels of heaven in song.
raigekimaru 1 year ago
Probably best she stuck with Bel Canto. She just doesn't have the weight for that type of music.
damianjb1 1 year ago
@damianjb1 But she did have the weight, she had a huge voice which recordings dont show
timsuffolk 1 year ago
Dame Joan is my favourite soprano and Wagner is my favourite composer, I think her voice was at it´s best in the late 70s because it had darkened and sounded even better, more dramatic. For me "Joan Sutherland sings Wagner" is the best record she ever did. Joan Sutherland and Richard Wagner....Poor Bayreuth.
vonFalkenstein77 1 year ago
@vonFalkenstein77
It is a favorite of mine as well, and if heard by naysayers, provides good evidence that she had an instrument and timbre very suitable for some Wagnerian roles.
Hako2004 1 year ago
Love Joan Sutherland but I don't have the feeling she had the stamina for this.....
martello79 1 year ago
@martello79
I think Dame Joan had loads of stamina, certainly until age caught up with her. She sang many vocally demanding roles, including Norma, who is on stage all evening long.
She could have handled some Wagnerian roles, there is no doubt of that in the minds of those that knew her voice well.
Hako2004 1 year ago
@Hako2004 Then the question remains why she does obviously not use it here......
Ye,s you need staming for Norma. But having stamina for Norma will not say you have it for Wagner; The long lyric lines of Norma are spun above a light orchestra, completely different from here. If you think she does this equally well as Norma you disqualify her Norma.
martello79 1 year ago
@martello79 Are you insinuating that singing long lyric lines under a light orchestra is easy ??? Norma is a monster which I've seen devour many a Wagnerian soprani! In many ways much more difficult than Wagner, in some ways not.
Operafiend22 1 year ago
@Operafiend22 No I am not insinuating that and I did not write anywhere ever that JS only could sing ESAY things. But I do think that singing long lyric lines above light orchestration does require a different instrument then above a Wagnerian one and vice versa.. JS did excellate in the bel canto repertoire and I think she was less suitable for these kind of Wagnerian roles.
martello79 1 year ago
@martello79 Sorry for the confusion...I agree with you %100
Operafiend22 1 year ago
@martello79 it should be remembered too that Sutherland had a voice easily big enough for Wagner
timsuffolk 1 year ago
And we're supposed to be floored by that?!
sorobji 1 year ago
she has just the right timbre for Germanic opera. her voice sounds supernatural, like it belongs to an angel or a deity.
raigekimaru 2 years ago
There was nothing she couldn't sing! Great artist!
64marc64 2 years ago 9
As far as I can remember, I think I read somewhere that she regarded Kirsten Flagstad as her greatest role model in the early years. It was Richard Bonynge who later "spoiled" her dreams and helped her become what she became. So you are probably right. :)
lalagonegaga 2 years ago
Voice classification is new. Wagner wanted to create a Wagner voice school in Bayreuth, though never did. Like Mozart, he chose singers who could sing the part sometimes writing for them.
Herman Klein writes about famous Wagner cycles in Her Majesty's Theatre London.Two series of the Ring were given. In the first, Therese Vogl sang Brünnhilde and Hedwig Reicher-Kindermann sang Fricka. In the second series, some days later, Vogl sang Sieglinde and R-K Brünnhilde without destroyng their voices.
1401JSC 2 years ago
Très bien qu'elle est fait du Wagner même que en Studio. Marre de ceux qui voudrait faire croire que Wagner est si dur que ça à chanter.
isabelle070209 2 years ago
Sieglinde is a Lric Soprano rôle, not a dramatic!
The high note's only a top A flat.
Dame Joan has a sublimely beautiful voice, but in this recording her German vowels are not clear enough and the diphthongs drawled.
German 'r's are to be rolled.
Near the beginning she splits a subject from its verb to breathe (I can't think why)
"nach dem ich"...."verlangte".
Wagner greatly estimed the "Bel Canto", so please don't oppose him to it!
1401JSC 2 years ago
Sieglinde is for a lirico spinto or dramatic soprano, but not as heavy as Brunnhilde (although a bit lower in tessitura)
raigekimaru 2 years ago
This is certainly what we learn in books (Rudolf Kloiber "Handbuch der Oper", François-René Tranchefort "L'Opéra de Tristan à nos jours". But the bottom line is: can the voice of the person do it? Is the quality of the sound in line with the character?Mozart wrote low A and high C for Susanna because Nancy Store could do it.
1401JSC 2 years ago
I see your point. I think a large voiced lyric could take it on just fine.
raigekimaru 2 years ago
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. I think that the sheer size of the Wagnerian orchestra in Walkure is just too big/heavy for a lyric. A lyric, I think, would be simply covered at many of the climatic parts, such as at O hehrstes Wunder...Maybe it is possible in studio (like how Margaret Price sang Isolde), but not live.
But I agree with the rest that you say.
VivaMariaCallas 2 years ago 2
The size of the orchestra is not a parameter, but the art of orchestration is.
The "chamber music writing" of Tristan is well known.
Opera orchestras (particularly in Bayreuth) are well buried in their pit.
For Sieglinde's "aria", the orchestral dynamics are largely piano, some mf and only one f for the top A flat at the end.
Triple woodwind 4 Hrns + strings is a Beethoven 9th Orchestra.
16 1st Vlns sound more sumptuous than one, but their piano is just as effective.
1401JSC 2 years ago
"...only a top A flat." Totally ínaccurate.
There are several high A's and B flats I can think of in the third act. Adjust your ears!
crimsontoxic 2 years ago
How rude!
Have you the excuse of youth or of a psychotic need to always be right?
1. In this extract A flat is the top note.
2. In the last act there are indeed two B flats (A#)"screamed" on words like 'retten' (rescue me) and 'schirmt' (protect) and several As mostly on i/e vowels.
3. At the dramatic climax "O herrliche Wunder" her Gs and As are usually overwhelmed by the orchestra.
4. The first Sieglinde was T. Vogl whom Wagner (or Mottl) classed as "Tiefesopran" (deep or low soprano).
1401JSC 2 years ago
interesante escuchar a la sutherland en wagner, siempre gusta oirla
kikoencasa 2 years ago
Man now that is how it should be sung next to NIlsson and Farrell. She was a True Dramatic Soprano with an extended end in the high range!! Lets also Not to forget she had an Incredible Breath support!!
Operaman41 3 years ago
Surprenante dans ce rôle. Mais elle a la voix longue pour soutenir Wagner.
mariasarda 3 years ago
"Look out for the voice" at :53. Great!
LaStupenda 3 years ago 2
wooooooooooo la sutherland canta un wagner espectacular!!!! porke se decidio por los rigidos papeles del bel canto y handel, bueno, la Stupenda y Wagner, me gusto la combinacion
cantanteporsiempre 3 years ago 2
Ella tenia problemas con su registro agudo en el repertorio de Wagner y Verismo, pero en el bel canto y baroque sus sobreagudos salian tan facil como tomarse un vaso de agua. Por eso Richard penso que seria bueno llevarla en esa direccion.
agnellodei 3 years ago
I like her in this repertoire. And let's not forget about that wonderful studio Turandot.
tenornmd 4 years ago 3
the good days... when the sound engineer would turn up to work with neck tie... love her work...
mc4102 4 years ago
Wish Joan had had some time for some Wagner on stage(WHEN???)...Joan didn't have to really change anything to sing more dramatic roles.She used aLOT of her huge voice in bel canto roles as well...I'll never forget live how she soared above chorus,soloists and orchestra(levels above!) at the end of Lucia Sextet in London...NEVER forget that even so many years later.
lastupendaboy 4 years ago
She did the same in Philly over chorus. orchestra and then after the Sextet the Finale of the act. 60 singers and a 79 piece orchestra and Joan like a beautiful comet soaring over everthing. I can relate to your thrill.
63Attila 4 years ago
A little clarification that Joan could sing over practically a jet engine, couldn't a microphone be stuck really close to lesser singers so they could have the same effect? What I mean, is did Joan use microphones during her concerts / performances, or did she just project like crazy?
ChrisStockslager 2 years ago
Saw Joan many times and she never used a mike. Yes, she had a HUGE voice, especially for a coloratura!
00193900 2 years ago
Really? Not even floor mikes? Also, when did you see her, and did you hear any of those fantastic Ds or Ebs?
ChrisStockslager 2 years ago
1 La Sonnambula 1 I Puritani 2 Lucias 2 Maria Stuartas, 2 Normas 2 Traviatas, 3 recitals all Phila Academy of Music. 1 Gala in Baltimore Md (Orch and 4 YES FOUR Mad scenes and her last recital at the Met in NY. NEVER and mike and she had a HUGE voice. Her D's E's and Ebs were OMG and sent the audience into a frenzy. And OVER full orchestra and chorus! Watch the interview where Natalie Dessay comments on her. Intresting! First heard her in 1961 to 1988 Will check the Ticket!
00193900 2 years ago
WOW!! You must've spent a small fortune on tickets! Lucky stinkin' person. ;)
ChrisStockslager 2 years ago
And Il Trovatore with Pavarotti at the Met!
00193900 2 years ago
Hail to that!!!!!
andreasscholl 3 years ago
I sing some Wagner, and I'm not sure I agree. You can drown anyone with Wagner off course, but the tempo and the dynamics are the conductors. It wouldn't be easy, but I think it's possible for some of Wagner. I think it requires a very large voice that can soar above the orchestration, and a conductor that understands the limits of singers voice.
Hako2004 4 years ago
There are some from-the-50's live Wagner arias available on CD! coool.
Fredzeblak 4 years ago
realy, where can you get them?
and what did she sing then?
andreasscholl 3 years ago
Haha. Funny. Sutherland was frequently bare-footed in the recording studio....one foot wrapped around the ankle of the other....or on tip-toe for a high note.
Hako2004 4 years ago
How adorable!!!!!
LaStupenda 4 years ago
You know what's weird? In my head, I always thought that people dressed up for these recordings just like they would for a recital. Sigh. So dense sometimes....
Voolu 4 years ago
I could not possibly agree with you more OperaBR....it is a pity.
Hako2004 4 years ago
I'm quite sure Sutherland would have been a remarkable Sieglinde, Elisabeth or even Isolde. Her Wagner Album has one of the most beautiful "Du bist der Lenz" I've ever heard, indeed! IMO she had an ideal dramatic voice for some of the lighter Wagner roles, since it was suave, smooth and romantic and simultaneously powerful, slightly metallic (in the 70's) and creamy. It's a pity she never recorded a complete major Wagner role!
OperaBR 4 years ago
Yes she did: the Forest Bird! And it was just right for her -- you needed supernatural help to understand a word of it.
No, Wagner was NOT her fach. She knew her fach and (mostly) stuck to it. And the proof is she was still damn good at 60.
ATsarIsBorn 4 years ago
Isolde? Lighter Wagner roles?
Liwah 3 years ago
Maybe she could have sung more Wagner indeed, as all these people say here...but she wasnt the caracter for it!
Like a Rosina, vocaly Stupendes...but the body was more for a Queen and so forth...the Belcanto!!!!!
Although...this is realy AMAZING!!!!!!!
andreasscholl 3 years ago
drdre333 you are absolutely correct about Wagner's wishes. He really asked that his music be sung beautifully, which it frequently is not, power and penetration being the single goal for some sopranos.
Hako2004 4 years ago
Yes... but it is impossible with that orchestration to sing like it is bel canto. Who´s going to hear a singer singing bel canto in those Wagner roles with that huge orquestration?... Nobody. Just an ideal of him. Everybody says the same after he said but nobody sings that was because there´s no way of doing it.
ezayitas 4 years ago
I know she had a Wagner album, but have not been able to find it. Discontinued for sure, although I think it's included in the latest CD compilation to Sutherland... One must always remember that Wagner meant his music to be beautifully sung, like Bellini. It's great to hear a great bel canto voice such as Dame Joan's in this music.
drdre333 4 years ago
I love her in Wagner. I wish she had sung more of his music.
sevoflurane 4 years ago
Most people have no idea that Dame Joan sings Wagner. She sang Wagner long before she ever saw the score for Lucia. Thanks for this. I once had her Wagner album, loved it, and should replace it.
Hako2004 4 years ago
This is true. In her early years at Covent Garden they started grooming as a dramatic soprano, no doubt due to the size and fullness of her tone. It was her good friend, at the time, Bonynge who heard her potential as a coloratura. To think how different it all may have become!
SinoSene 4 years ago