The Value of Faith

[punchdrunkatheist]

This is an old post but this make one of the best points I've ever heard about faith and it's dispersion among beliefs.

[atheistkyo]

if you have faith

your an idiot

[yeahhohkay]

What was your point with this video? We get it. You have faith in yourself that you're right about this, but if Christ really is the son of God and you're wrong, then you'd be going to Hell. Faith is much more valuable to Christians than to you, yet you have more faith than anyone I know. It's just that instead of putting it in Christ you're putting it in yourself.

[SRobacker]

Faith is essentially "trusting." So we say you are trusting in Jesus Christ that he is going to raise you up later on. We know that Christ did exist. So we are trusting that he told us the truth that he knew.

But yes, if you believe, lets say, that there is no car coming and you walk into the street. If the car really was there, then your faith was fallacious.

[tillnow67]

@SRobacker So you are "trusting" someone who lived thousands of years ago (a fact you are also "trusting" as opposed to knowing) and claimed to be the son of god. Would you TRUST someone you met today who told you they were god? I doubt it. So why would you trust the writings of primitive middle eastern goat herders, people notorious for following any yahoo who claimed to be the messiah? That's ridiculous

[SRobacker]

Actually, what I said was that you trust him. He lived and that is a fact.

If you don't want to believe, that's fine, but you are forcing yourself to reject the facts.

As for writtings, they are not primitive. Take Daniel, he was the prince of Babylon and well educated.

Paul was a Jewish leader. highly educated. Sure Peter was a fisherman, but Matthew was a tax collector. Another job that required knowledge. Luke a physician.

SOME people back then were smart. They knew 8 languages, etc.

[Brother563]

HMMMMM......

[Brother563]

Foolish man, your "WISDOM" has destroyed your common sense. I really feel sorrow for your soul which the devil laughs at, and laughs at your clever conceited superiority. Hell is plum full your type who beg for another chance, now that they are new believers. Repent before its too late. Also stay away from churches and religions, they are a trap. Just call out to Jesus!

[tillnow67]

Oh grow up and quit spouting fairy tales as if they were true.

[punchdrunkatheist]

@Brother563 Unless you're a different Christian organization, then it could be purgatory who is full of it. Might be something else. That would depend on your beliefs and expansion of knowledge about other beliefs.  Funny, huh?

[Brother563]

I will pray for you before its to late. By the way, there is plenty of proof everywhere but you have chosen darkness. Unless you reach your hand out to receive from the tree of life, there is only darkness..and yes this comes by faith.

[tillnow67]

Go ahead and pray for me. It will make you FEEL like you're doing something useful and it is MUCH easier than actually thinking about my arguments and articulating a response. It's the perfect way out for the intellectually lazy and inarticulate.

[yeahhohkay]

@tillnow67 Why do you act like such a jerk about other beliefs? You can't fully prove creationism or evolutionism. Being an athiest was your choice. Do you ever think that the people around you get hurt when you act like that? People like your friends or family? You've said to me that you "respect other people's beliefs" but that's obviously a total lie.

[tillnow67]

@yeahhohkay I respect other peoples RIGHTS to have their own beliefs, but that doesn't mean I respect what they believe. If you believe something ridiculous then you have the right to hold and express that belief, but you don't have some innate protection from ridicule when you express something ridiculous. Why would you think that should be the case?

And I didn't "choose" atheism. I followed the evidence there. My only choice was admitting I no longer believed. You can't.

[eaglestirreth]

I don't believe in the Sanity Clause .

To be totally serious I have proof that God exists..I had counselling from Christians about my wicked past..Healing,forgiveness, a total turnaround..After this was all finished I rested in my room.....All I felt was wave after wave of God's Holy Spirit...If you have never experienced His Spirit it is total peace,total serenity total Love.Hard to put into words.But I know that He is totally real.

In the real world some of us have experience of Him.

[Mahoivlich]

Until being a moron stops being an acceptable behavior we will have to continue putting up with religious nonsense. These people rant about morals while they are the first to kill, lie, cheat and steal to accomplish their goals.

[MasonExplosion]

I'm going to quote this comment constantly...just so you know.

[Mahoivlich]

It's all yours sir.

[antihistrymeme]

You need to get over the shit you did in Iraq.

It doesn't mean that religion has no use, just that you didn't have the courage of your convictions. St.Peter did the same. Leave the Christians alone there not hurting anyone. You're like an ex smoker or something, its like a religion for you...."gotta straighten out those Christians" Why? Have you had any luck with it? At the end of the day, all you'll have is a bunch of brain dead athiest kissing your arse. Yeah good luck with that...

[tillnow67]

Ha ha...Maybe YOU need to get over it. I didn't mention Iraq at all in this video.

Sounds to me like you want me to stop talking about Christianity because you can't provide a rational response. So you attack motivations rather than arguments. Had any luck with THAT?

[antihistrymeme]

You assume too much.

You want to conduct a crusade against Christians in their ignorance, go right ahead. But, you cant beat something with nothing and your not offering a better alternative. Go start a charity or something, make the world a better place coz kicking innocents makes you look bitter and small.

[tillnow67]

The alternative is truth and knowing even the ugly truth is better than believing a beautiful lie. If you think drinking the Kool-Aid makes the world a better place go right ahead.

[Mahoivlich]

Doesn't take make to stop you supporting the troops. Telling a soldier to "get over" the nasty shit he has seen shows your true colors. While you hide in the hers like another cow, there are people putting their lives on the line.

[Sean2046]

wow, excellent thoughts!

[GeneTheory]

Oscar Wilde said "The truth, in religion, is merely the opinion that has survived". Religion itself is an example of the evolutionary algorithm at work... Christianity today is not what it was 2000 years ago. The strongest theories outlive the weaker ones...

[ScrawnyRonnie]

God has shown me that He's real, and as I continue to pray and keep my faith in Him, he reveals himself to me. People refer to it as "hearing God's voice". Just your though on answered prayer. Nothing but coincidence? My faith isn't only driven on ancient manuscripts, but experiences I have this day.

[tillnow67]

You sound like a Muslim man I met in Iraq. You see, adherents of ALL religions claim those same personal, intimate experiences, even those religions without a personal deity. Does that make THEIR religions true too? It can't. They can't all be right. Some who have those "experiences" are wrong, but not YOU, right?

[ScrawnyRonnie]

Good point. I'm not exactly sure the boundaries Satan has, but he'll do anything to keep people from not accepting Jesus. If God can answer our prayers, then Satan can too.

[bl4ckd0g187]

'adherents of ALL religions claim those same personal, intimate experiences, even those religions without a personal deity.'

-as an agnostic, I have an interesting thought on that.

what if ALL of these so called 'gods' that people think they are praying to, are lesser dieties or some kind of demon? that might explain why these 'gods' have such vile wishes that they bestow upon their followers (such as genocide and mass violence).

or, it could be schizophrenics claiming to hear from god.

[tillnow67]

In all, there were more Heaven's Gate cult members who died for their beliefs than your so-called first generation christians. Does that lend any credibility to their beliefs? No. Anyone can brainwash a handful of suckers, even to the point that they would die for it.

[visionvictory]

But the Apostles were not brainwashed. They would of known if Christ resurrected or not. They would not have died because they were brain washed, they would of had to have known they were all lying. Now maybe one, but 11 of them? Not to count the hundreds who witnessed a resurrected Christ and the thousands who died later.

[tillnow67]

There were 41 Heaven's Gate members who died for their beliefs. There were 27 Muslims who died for their beliefs on 911. But you are skeptical that eleven 1st century Arabs could be duped.

[visionvictory]

The 40 Heaven's gate members followed the leader. The 27 muslims followed the Koran. The 1st century Jews actually were eye witnesses to his resurrection. Remember after Jesus was killed the movement dying quickly, Peter denied him before he was even killed. But then they saw him resurrected and eventually died for what they believed the say themselves. Not what someone told them or what they read.

[tillnow67]

So say the stories written more than 60 years later. You talk about them not believing what someone told them or what they read. But that is exactly what YOU are doing when you believe without question that the stories of the resurrection and the deaths of the apostles are true.

[visionvictory]

Part 2

Even you as an atheist believe and have faith that there is no God. You can't prove there isn't a God, you can have an alternate theory of life without a God, but you can never prove there just simply isn't a God.

Your right, faith in anything besides Jesus Christ has no real value.

[tillnow67]

Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. "Not" believing in the absence of evidence is "not" faith.

[visionvictory]

Look your making up your own definition to fit a sqaure peg in a round hole. Since the person on this video mentioned Paul and then mis quoted him doesn't make it true. Paul stated, "faith is believing in the unseen." No mention of believing in something with no evidence. Plus the fact that were even alive gives faith in a God, evidence. Not enough to prove a God, but evidence in the case for a creator.

[tillnow67]

No, that's the dictionary definition of faith. I did not mis-quote Paul nor did I attribute the dictionary definition of faith that I used to Paul. Your desperation is telling.

[visionvictory]

thanks for the in depth analysis :)

[tillnow67]

Oh I could do a thesis on your delusion. Not only are you unwilling to face reality, but you seem unwilling to face the facts which point to that reality. You will die someday and when you do you will cease to exist. You are not immortal. Deal with that reality as hard as it is for you and you may enjoy what life you have.

[visionvictory]

There are known unknowns and unkown unknowns. So if your right and this is all just random and I will eventually become dirt then I can live with that.

But if a man named Jesus is right, who's impacted the world more than any one human being is right, then that means I have eternal life. And I can also live with that. Heads I win, tails you lose.

[tillnow67]

Oh please! Pascal's wager? Do you avoid the woods just in case Bigfoot is real? Do you avoid the dark just in case the Boogeyman exists? Pascal's wager is a suckers bet.

[tillnow67]

Saying I believe wouldn't make me a christian. It would make me a hypocrite and you and I both know there are enough of those. Saying you believe doesn't make you a christian any more than sleeping in the garage makes you a car.

[tillnow67]

"So if your right and this is all just random and I will eventually become dirt then I can live with that." Obviously you can't because you have deluded yourself into believing in a fairy tale about eternal life. You are simply afraid of the finality of death.

[visionvictory]

Look I know there is a creator because of the scientific evidence that points to a universal watch maker. As far as eternal life goes, it's because I have chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ. When people die for something they think is the truth, i'm not amazed at all. Muslims kill themselves all the time for their faith. But when first generation eye witnesses get tortured and killed for their faith, i'm left with two questions. Did they die for a lie? Or was it really true?

[visionvictory]

Obviously I believe that the 1st generation Christians wouldn't die for something they knew was a lie. Plus the Jews of that Generation would have done anything they could have to stop this Jesus revolution. So if they knew he didn't heal, resurrect, or his genealogy was not accurate they would of done everything they could have to stop this new religion.

[visionvictory]

The apostle Saul wanted to murder Christians but someone or something changed his heart for him to go to the extreme opposite. The first generation Christians are so unique to me, plus to convert that many adult Jews, known to be stubborn people even to this day.

[visionvictory]

Part 1

Your definition of faith is flawed, faith believes in something you can't see. Not believing in something that has no evidence or proof. But simply something you can not see. There is a lot of evidence for intelligent design from our own DNA to the Cambrian Explosion (or Cambrian Boom).

[tillnow67]

From Mirriam Webster online: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

YOUR definition is flawed. You can't see air, but you don't need faith to believe it exists.

[opinionhead444]

I really think many people are faithless, but they hide it because they fear losing the important social connections they have in their lives. Also, fear seems to drive faith itself. Humans are afraid of death and oncoming disaster and belief in a god character gives them hope. I agree with Hitchens on this point, the only way for faith to die is to have humans get over their fear of death. I don't think faith will ever die.

[QUACK888]

Hi Wayne

You've put forward quite a good case on your perception of the value of faith. However, I felt that equating a belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus is quite unfair and unnecessary.

For me, the thiest vs athiest debate can be reduced to this: You either believe that everything was created by Intelligent Design, or that it came about by Stupid Accident.

[tillnow67]

Quack, why is the Santa analogy "unfair and unnecessary"? How are they different?

[johndhuk]

Far from a 'Stupid Accident', evolution provides an eloquant explanation for our complex being with highly simplistic origins.

By trying to explain the complexity we see in the world with a infinitely more complex 'designer' you are creating more questions than you answer, to simply decree this designer as not requiring explanation is intelectually dishonest... and all you are left with is a Stupid Arguement.

[jonsonbrown]

Faith is the amazing faculty of man which enables us to believe things which we know to be untrue.

[GenMata]

Hey Wayne.

You're an intelligent guy and I know you are really seeking the truth. I could answer all your questions concerning contradictions and even the faith question. But it still won't give you the answers you are looking for. Many may accept Christ on blind faith alone and recieve but to many of us it is much more than just believing. I grew up questioning everything. There is one thing I can't prove but it makes all the difference.

[Honnis]

Dictionary dot com gives 9 different definitions for faith. The bible usually uses definition number eight. Which definition are you discussing in this video?

[tillnow67]

Oh, honnis wants to play the semantics game. (so Clinton) Definition 8 relies on definition 2. You have no evidence that god exists or that Jesus made any of those promises as written in the Bible. Also, the story of Thomas makes it clear that what christianity demands is belief without proof.

[Honnis]

It's a simple question. Which definition are you using? Whether or not one relies on the other is irrelevant because in such a case the relationship will be self-evident within the definition itself. Quit dodging and answer the question.

[Honnis]

Proof:

1.evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

2.anything serving as such evidence

Therefore anything serving as evidence to produce belief is proof, whether that is the Bible itself, or even a little feeling you might have when you hear about Christianity.

[Honnis]

Evidence:

1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

Therefore, evidence IS proof.

Therefore, millions upon millions all over the world have evidence and proof that Christianity and the Bible are true.

Also, we can clearly deduce that there is no proof (def 2) unless there is first belief. This is because if something doesn't produce belief, it doesn't fulfill the definition (2) of proof.

[Honnis]

Therefore in all cases, religious or not, you must first have belief. Otherwise, any data given that hasn't yet produced belief it not proof (def 2).

On a side note, hopefully from this you can see that there is no such thing as "proven" (def 2) without regards to an individual or group of individuals. In other words, what's proven to me might not be proven to you.

[Honnis]

Furthermore, semantics is not a game, it's the study of meaning. Without it we'd all be intellectually lower than the animals. If you want to reject it, then I expect to hear nothing further from you because you cannot communicate without it.

[tillnow67]

So to sum up your argument, if you believe in something then you have proved it and if you don't believe it, it is not proven. You think whether there is sufficient evidence or proof for a proposition is entirely dependant upon the observer. "Even a little feeling you might have" is proof in your world. And you accused me of 3rd grade thinking?

[Honnis]

I'm just quoting you the dictionary definition. Do you have a problem with that or do you agree with me?

[Honnis]

Oh, and you're still avoiding my original question too. It's a really simple basic question. If it's so difficult for you to come up with an answer, maybe you should reanalyze some of your original assumptions about the true meaning of faith. I think it's an often used and rarely understood word. Nothing to be ashamed of there :).

[tillnow67]

Read it again slowly dim wit. "story of Thomas makes it clear that what christianity demands is belief without proof." That is clearly definition 2, the one I mentioned that 8 relies on. The kind of faith that you obviously have; the kind with NO proof.

[Honnis]

Ok, so you're using definition 2. In that case, then give me an example of a case in which there is a belief without proof.

While you're doing this I hope you'll remember that the dictionary definition of proof(def 2) is "Anything serving as [ground for belief](evidence def 1) sufficient to... produce belief..."

[tillnow67]

Did you look at the synonyms for proof? Belief isn't among them. Demonstration is though. How do you demonstrate to someone else "that little feeling you might have"? You have NO demonstrable proof for god, so you try to contruct a loophole with semantics in which all beliefs are proven by virtue of being believed. Your argument is circular. Explain how the effect can be the cause honnis.

[Honnis]

1. Hahaha, synonyms are not definitive! You're really funny.

2. Look up demonstrate (def 4)... BWAHAHAHAHAA!

3. You're the one claiming that the effect can be the cause. I never insinuated that in the slightest. So why don't YOU explain how that's possible to ME, because I don't buy it, and then tell me what that even has to do with a discussion on faith, haha.

[tillnow67]

Nope, you are using circular logic. "we can clearly deduce that there is no proof (def 2) unless there is first belief." Proof produces belief, belief produces proof- your effect is also your cause.

[Honnis]

That's your logic, not mine. It's not proof until after it produces belief, after which it becomes proof on it's own merits, because it now fulfills the dictionary definition.

If you disagree then tell me how you define faith, proof, etc, and how that is concurrent with the dictionary definition. Otherwise, you're discussing some word you made up yourself that has no basis in the English language.

[tillnow67]

Oh, you don't want to claim your own logic once it is pointed out as circular? YOU came up with the "effect can be the cause" drivel. You already know I am using definition 2, belief without proof. The funny thing is, even with YOUR definition of faith, my argument stands. THAT faith is useless.

[Honnis]

1. You're lying. I never said that. If I did then tell me where you're quoting me from.

2. You can't even come up with one tiny sliver of evidence, even one example, where your definition is valid. I asked you for even just one example and you can't answer.

3. I never even defined faith, so you have no idea what you're talking about "with [MY] definition".

[tillnow67]

I'm not lying, you're just back-peddling from your own flawed logic. You said proof produces belief. You also said that whether a thing is proof depends on whether it produces belief, i.e. belief produces proof. In your argument both are the cause and both are the effect. It is circular.

[Honnis]

I never said belief produces proof. You pulled that one out of your... well out of somewhere, haha.

[tillnow67]

"Therefore in all cases, religious or not, you must first have belief. Otherwise, any data given that hasn't yet produced belief it not proof"

Your words from an earlier post liar.

[tillnow67]

You are asking for an example of belief without proof based on your erroneous understanding of the word proof.

[Honnis]

I gave you the dictionary definition of proof. If you think that's erroneous then you'll have to give me a substitute.

[tillnow67]

You don't read well do you? I said you had an erroneous "understanding" of the word, probably because you don't read the dictionary any better than you read posts.

[putittogether]

well stated sir, thank you. keep posting

[danielnz1]

Humanity over-all, has perceived over 300 gods of this World and vast Universe, and most were fashioned by manipulating patriarchal human minds, for their times.

But, if instead, Humanity had been dominated by matriarchal societies, through-out our evolution, it could very well have produced totally different gods, more loving, secular, compassionate and probably far more focused on Nature and mother! Earth, than dominance, hell-fire and eternal sex.

[benny266698]

Religion was "Invented" by the inteligent and powerfull in order to controll the majority.

Think! before man Invented books or even a Language to speak , How could he Fear a God he hadnt even heard of yet? Cavemen didnt fear god when they were children they were not theatened with going to"the bad fire/hell"

[benny266698]

Telling a michevious child they will go to hell is mental abuse, it is also a lie!

Different religions were formed in order to divide and conquer and extort the poor and uninteligent general population.

And the bad guy gets to look like the good guy the whole time, sweet deal for the elite huh?

People should be judged on their actions and behaviour not on faith ,religion or colour.

[matiaie]

tillnow67 whats your view on postmodernism. Postmodernism stating that there is no foundation for knowledge. Also Christians have circular reasoning: The bible is the Word of God and God is the foundation of knowledge. Now reason is also circular reasoning right? Science and reason are reasonable because they are reasonable. It's circular reasoning?

[IAFGVN]

When Jesus died in flesh, his fleshed died with him, then He rose in spirit. It is not flesh keeping Christians alive. He is alive in spirit, and so are we. Our lifes are hidden in Christ, so this value of faith video, is nothing more than flesh, attempting to make sense of the things that are in spirit. Without the spirit of God , faith will never make sense to the flesh. If you choose you can die with Jesus, or die in Flesh. Flesh dies the moment you repent, and ask Jesus to be your Lord.

[tillnow67]

Wow! You managed to miss the point entirely. If you can't understand something until you put faith in it then what makes christianity the obvious choice to someone trying to decide which religion, if any, to place his faith in? It has to be either evidence, a roll of the dice, trying them all or being indoctrinated at a young age with no choice in the matter. Proponents of all religions will tell you theirs makes sense to them for the same reason you say yours makes sense to you.

[IAFGVN]

No I didn't miss a thing, God's Spirit is truth. I have the Truth. You see I am dead in flesh, like Jesus was, when he died on the cross. God's choice to come in flesh, was real. God's choice to die in flesh is real, and our rightousness is only explained by God's will to finish His desire to have us back in His kingdom. He was in flesh, now Jesus has his body in Spirit for eternity. Due to that, we have this same body dead in sin, and alive forever in Christ. My life is hidden in Christ.

[tillnow67]

You are blind to truth. What you have is indoctrination. The only thing dead about you is your intellect and the only thing alive about Jesus is the potential to dupe people in his name.

[kurtcrowbain]

well spoken sir

[AQuinault]

I think Kierkegaard was the first proponent of 'blind' faith, but many would dispute how orthodox he is. C.S. Lewis had a different definition of faith. In fact chapter 11 - Mere Christianity, he is saying something very similar to what you express here.

[xenthric]

This video clearly outlines your argument and makes direct points which allow no room for loopholes. I would love to see a single person even attempt to refute this argument. Thanks for posting.

[JohnHasSeriousQ]

Thanks for your story and philosophy. Welcome to the real world. Real truth and logic like this video is usually simple and makes sense because it IS truthful and logical. "for the pain of FAITH in your lies and deception, I kill thee"

[IFeito]

Faith is a nicer name for credulity.

[Davidscave]

great video man. you should check my video on religion

[distortingjack]

Thank you. As the "natural born" atheist I consider myself to be, I am never able to imagine what faith is, if not compared to faith in Santa Claus. So it's really hard for me to talk even to intelligent religious people, because faith by definition is never explainable.

The logical path you took since the beginning of the video was, IMO, just right to get to people who have faith. THAT has value, my friend.

[owheydusoapsk]

Why do apologists want to equate all beliefs or faith, with blind faith? Is it to level the playing field and then show believing the bible is as legimate as any other belief?

[moorerandi]

"that can effect public policy.." Bottom line, end of the day, that's EXACTLY my interest in this issue. Please continue your clear-spoken and rational work..thanks