Jane Seymour

[5RoseLilly]

Anyway we should all remember all of Henry The VIII Wives :)))

[1993frozenkiwi]

Jane did more than spoken about here. She reunited Henry with his children among other things. She could have at least mentioned that!

[EllieMarianna]

@1993frozenkiwi She didn't reunite Elizabeth and Henry. Only Mary. She stepped over both their mother's bodies easily. She wasn't a nice person in my opinion.

[LaBoricua2591]

A terrible case. Jane did as she was told because she was terrified of him; he had just put his previous queen to death eleven days before. She's remembered because she had a son, which is something that you don't actually have control over. All those little tricks that Jane pulled on the King she learned from Anne. And the reason why her fate was different than Anne's is because she had a son.

[cardwitch91]

Definately the weakest case for all these videos about the wives. I feel there is more of an argument for the other wives. Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn were remarkable women. Catheine Howard was tragic and foolish. Katherine Parr managed to get out of a tight spot. Jane is remembered simply for bearing a son. Had Catherine's or Anne's sons lived, they would have been honoured just as much if not more. Had Jane bore a daughter, he'd have buried and forgot her.

[LadyGillian]

VERY weak argument. Jane Seymour was only so favored because Henry ONLY valued her for that son.

Catherine of Aragon gave him a son too, granted that child didn't live long, but it was a male heir. It wasn't until Henry went nuts on the subject of 'must have MALE heir'...

Bessie Blount (sp??) also managed a son, Henry Fitzroy who was later granted an earldom, or something similar - I think at one time there was even talk of marrying off Mary to him despite step status of the 2.,

[BlackCatMargie]

I wonder if Jane would be buried with Henry if she had died giving birth to a girl? Henry was pretty eager to marry Catherine of Aragon too, and, though he may have forgotten it by his later years, they had a happy marriage until it became clear she could not create an heir. I find it ironic that all Henry wanted was to be remembered as the creator of a dynasty, but in the end he was mostly remembered for his marriages.

[ukcelticpride]

Henry and Jane burried together. She must have been his favourite.

[EllieMarianna]

@ukcelticpride Only for the son she bore him.

[NarcissaMalf0y]

Yeah. I still haven't changed my mind. One of your points was that she made Henry wait...whereas...Anne did the same. I'm nearly positive it was because she was so submissive and above all giving Henry a son that he was "the most happiest" with in life (supposedly) and such.

[popazz1]

Jeeze,what's this woman on,lol?! Stop shouting woman,we're not deaf!

[chloecherry26]

Only reason he said she was his "true wife" was because she give him a son, even thought he was a sickly child , and also it wasnt his first male heir catherine aragon gave him his first live male heir called henry who died after 52 days of life

[sillybilly7909]

no...i am sorry ...best queen for henry was anne boleyn

[AnneBoleyn15]

I don't have anything against Jane but just because she had a son. So what edward didn't live long anyway. She was not the best queen she hardly did anything. I am not trying to be mean. I think she was a good queen but not the best.

[AWickedMind]

Oh yeah, Jane was extremely fascinating and clever. She was meek, her kid happened to be a boy, and then she died. I'm blown away by her story...*yawn*

[LadySarahMichelle]

Oh yes Jane was the best wife because she had a son .. -_- .. because its not like she just got lucky... I think Jane would have been gotten rid of just as quickyly if she had a girl.. or no children at all... so saying she was the best wife because she had a son is ignorant... Henry only loved Jane because she had a boy, no more, no less.

[JemmaR34]

I dont know which presentations to believe when people are discussing the looks and beauty of all of the queens. I have read up on every one of henrys wifes, For example some books say that Jane was a beauty and Henrys favourite wife where as others and this report say that she was plain and quite large. Even old tudor paintings appear quite different sometimes. Most of the time facts do mach up but it is very frustrating when they dont ,lol,

why cant we go back in time and see :P

[GoddessofHyrule]

KATHARINE PARR FOREVER!

[Ladyjaxs]

Excuse me, but I do read my history books, and no I didn't get my knowledge just by watching the Tudors. In fact I was reading up on this stuff way before the show even started, And just because we have a differenc of opinion on things, don't automatically assume that I just got my info from the show!!!

[ClassiJazz]

This was a piss poor presentation, "she was not attractive, but manipulative, and pushed out a son-then died with a good reputation, so she's the best of women?!

OMG! Jane was a good woman yes, but so were others. And by the way, Henry had to be convinced her needed a son by manipulators, Mary was quite favored by everyone before than, and having a son became Henry's way of proving that God wasn't against him.

[Ladyjaxs]

She didn't extend her friendship to Mary...she wanted Mary to denounce her mother and then she would bring her back to the king good graces. I could see your point if she had done it without any motive behind it. Plus she treated very coldly...she even asked Henry to execute both Katharine and Mary....saying she couldn't get a son unless they were dead...if that not harm then I don't know what is.

[Ladyjaxs]

urgh, ignore my last comment, my thoughts got mixed up and didn't come out the way I wanted it too!!

[lookinglass123]

which one shall I reply to ? :)

[Ladyjaxs]

the 8 minute one, urgh, I hate this kind of format, lol.....sorry i got yu confused

[lookinglass123]

yeah I know the format so pisses me off GRRR

[lookinglass123]

Okay, well. I think obviously Anne had to protect her interests, and recognizing Cat as Queen was not one of them. Anne did however have the highground, she wasn't bribing Mary, she didn't Mary, there was no urgent motive to have Mary on side, I honestly believe that Anne did it partly out of kindness, and Mary was bloody obsinate calling Anne the King's mistress lol. Obviously that angered Anne, and compromised her. She couldn't extend the hand of friendship any more than that.

[Karenjade]

Anne shouldn't have allowed ambition to get the better of her if she wanted to "protect her interests". Did Anne really think Cat would just smile, step aside and accept Mary being basterdized and disinherited? Did Anne really think she could threaten their lives, order Mary to be beaten and Mary would just roll over, declair herself a bastard, denounce her own mother and accept another woman as Queen? Please! If anything, Jane Seymore was a good heavy dose of karma for Anne.

[lookinglass123]

See, Cat had the chance for Mary not to be bastardized and disinherited, if only she would step down as Queen. But she was more concerned with her own pride and position than with Mary's. I can see what mean, Anne losing the throne being Karma. But Jane Seymour didn't do that much to get it. She was just lucky.

Though I don't see how any of this relates to what I said...

[Karenjade]

See, Catherine was smart enough, and knew Henry well enough, to know that no matter what empty promises he made, the minute Anne gave birth to a boy Mary would be back to being a disowned bastard. He'd broken every other promise he'd made to Cat, so why should she believe that one?

[lookinglass123]

Every other promise?

[Karenjade]

Yes, he'd broken all the promises he'd made to Catherine before, so no surprise she wouldn't take the bait.

[lookinglass123]

Well...specifically, apart from his marriage vows.

[Karenjade]

An unfaithful husband who breaks the most important of promises can never, and will never, be truthful in anything. And the whole reason Henry discarded Catherine in the first place was to get a son and heir out of Anne. Cat knew this, so of course she wasn't going to take the bait only to have the SOB go back on his word once Anne gave birth.

[Karenjade]

And neither Anne nor Jane did much to get the throne other then initially refusing Henrys gifts and attentions. At least Jane was wise enough to know how to speak her mind without losing her head and was good enough to try to get Mary reinstated as heir (even over her own child) and was trying to help Elizabeth too before she died giving birth.

[lookinglass123]

Although I respect and admire Jane for her avocation of Mary and to a lesser extent, Elizabeth, its ridiculous to suggest she promoted them over her own child.

Also, I don't really think that Jane managed much by 'speaking her mind without losing her head' - Anne Boleyn, by contrast, helped trigger the English reformation.

[Karenjade]

I mean she avocated *Mary* as heir over her child, and at least wanted Elizabeth back in her fathers good graces.

Jane at least was wise enough not to provoke the lion in his own den. Yes, Anne was a fiesty, firey femmenist icon and Henrys lust for her helped trigger and speed up the reformation, but look where it got her in the end. And Henry was such an egomaniac it was only a matter of time before he made himself head of the Church Of England, Anne or no Anne.

[lookinglass123]

Its impossible to say if anything other than Anne Boleyn could have triggered Henry to make himself head of the C of E. He certainly was an egomaniac, but Anne bolstered that.

Her downfall can be attributed more to Cromwell than to Henry though, even though I agree that it was her fiesty, stubborn nature that caused it.

[Karenjade]

Actually, Henry was already looking for a way to discard Cat before he met Anne. I believe he would have split from Rome and made himself head of the COE to do that. His lust for Anne and her support for the reformation sped the process though.

And Cromwell or no Cromwell, the real culprit in Annes ending fate is *Henry*. He was the only one with the power and the so-called "right" in the decision making.

[AnaliaHyrule]

I thought you didn't like Anne....

[Karenjade]

I don't like Anne, but even she became a victim of Henrys ruthlessness and selfishness in the end.

[DivineGurl342]

i think u give henry too much credit. he was an easily influenced man...even though i dont care for anne i can respect her in some ways for she knew this & deff influence henry to do alot. i dont think henry would break away from rome if it werent for anne...he was scared to do it in the first place for he was highly religious (not that he acted like it) & because it can bring war with the catholic countries if u broke away. & he wasnt looking for a way to discard cat for a long time he didnt

[lookinglass123]

Jane did provoke Henry. Originally, he treated her really badly when she begged on Mary's behalf and on behalf of the leaders of the pilgrimage of grace (the same fight that Anne had with Cromwell). Yes. Jane was nothing like Anne and quickly submitted, I concede that. But the point I'm trying to make is that it must have been very difficult not to fall out over these matters.

[Karenjade]

Didn't Anne argue with Cromwell over what to do with the goods looted from the Catholic monestarys?...

Though Jane was wise enough not to press Henry further and heeded the warnings she was given.

[DivineGurl342]

what what i like u lol and i deff believe jane was karma to anne

[Sztriki86]

What you say fits perfectly with the script of The Tudors.Although I love this show myself,don't take it as written,please!If you want FACTS,then read some of the best Tudor historians' books!

[adena539]

i love all the wives together.. but elizabeth i and mary i both said he told them she was the mother of the son which he loved her the most.. i love and admire Jane she was clever i would surly be on her good side if i was to meet her.

[katharinethequene]

Althought I really like and admire Jane, Catalina will always be the best and true Queen.

[AndromedaMariaCarmen]

Jane's growing on me too. The only wife I don't like now is CAtherine HOward.

[persephonethemad]

What did Catherine do except be young and rather drawn to a younger man that wasn't her husband.

[Gabbycrts]

Put it like this, I like Jane a lot more than that serpent, Anne Boleyn, and happen to be a very big fan. However, Queen Katherine of Aragon will always be the true Queen in my eyes. Nobody could ever replace Katherine.

[persephonethemad]

Anne Boleyn wasn't a serpent, she never wanted to break up a marriage. All she orginally said was that she wouldn't be anyone's mistress. But she fell in love, and changed Englad for the better. Honestly children, we're much better off as Protestant we like it.

[AndromedaMariaCarmen]

don't even bother defending Anne- you just get thumbed down. Anne fans aren't entitled to an opinion.

[Ladyjaxs]

Don't get me wrong, I love Jane, she is my fav wife after Catherine, but I still say that Catherine is the best out of all of them, and the one true queen of England!

[XxCrazygal2007xX]

that arguement was a bit weak to be honest, i still say anne was the best

[persephonethemad]

Of course it was weak! Jane was weak, and in no way a goody goody, she played just a big a game as Anne did. Only wanted Mary back so she could further the case of English Catholics. Bah, why does every one like Jane when she was as exciting as dirty dish water!

[DivineGurl342]

which anne

[DivineGurl342]

i do have to admit that she was the only one to have a son to make it past infancy and she did have better morals than some of the others but no one can beat the first wive

[persephonethemad]

So, there were a lot of factors that could have meant that pregnancies ended in tragedy about then.

Anne Boleyn had good morals, she didn't become Henry's mistress. She was deeply relgious. Anne of Cleves too was a woman of good morality, as was Catherine Parr. The only one that had questionable morals was Katherine Howard, and that was due to her upbringing. But, whatever you say, Jane allowed the death of another woman, of an anointed Queen thats bad morals as far as I'm concerned.

[Ladyjaxs]

There are some things that I do like about Anne, but I hardly say she is a good moral person. The way she treated Mary, told the servants to beat her. A person with good moral values doesn't do that. Not only, what could Jane have done? women's roles were a whole lot different then. its unrealistic to think that she could have stopped it. for that matter why didn't Anne stop the executions of Thomas More and Cardinal fisher?

[Ladyjaxs]

The only person who is responsible for the deaths of the Boleyns is Henry and Thomas Cromwell. Jmo!

[lookinglass123]

Mainly Cromwell, defo not Jane...

[lookinglass123]

I think Anne was a moral person. She did extend the hand of friendship to Mary again and again and she only spoke the 'box her ears' thing in anger. She didn't mean it and Mary wasn't harmed on Anne's orders. Also, Anne had no reason to stop the execution of More and Fisher. They stood against her and her faith. It could be argued that they died to prevent the kind of bloodshed that was seen in the pilgramige of grace. But that's Henry's cross to bare not Anne's.

[Ladyjaxs]

I disagree with you on Mary....Anne only saw Mary as a nusiance more then anything. As far as her extending her hand to her, she wanted Mary to disown her mother! I could see your point if she offered her hand in friendship without conditions.  Plus she asked Henry to both execute Mary/Katharine......so she could have a son. So I think she definitly meant some harm to both Mary and KOA

[lookinglass123]

According to Starkey, there's no evidence to say that Anne ordered their deaths. What's on record is that she said 'Mary would be her death' However, if she did ask for their deaths, it's pretty unforgiveable, but understandable. She was getting increasingly desperate for a son, had fallen out with Cromwell and her relationship with Henry had cooled. In short, a very precarious position. I can imagine her fear of Catherine and Mary was pretty terrible, She tried to do what she could do save her

[lookinglass123]

life.

[lookinglass123]

Also, Anne had no reason to stop the execution of More and Fisher. They stood against her and her faith. It could be argued that they died in order to try prevent the kind of bloodshed that was seen in the pilgramige of grace. But that's Henry's cross to bare not Anne's. I am for from blaming Jane for Anne's death, but she did knowingly catalyse it. That isn't good morals. Then again, I think she displayed good morals during the p.o.g pleading for the rebels' lives. So it's not clear cut.

[lookinglass123]

So I guess no powerful people are without sin.

[DivineGurl342]

anne didnt have good morals, she was a manipulator. she did become henrys mistress before they got married & was pregnant by the time they did. She seducted henry & changed the religion & if she was truly religious especially n the faith she was brought up n then y did she help go protestant. I'm not saying i dont have some respect for anne she was pretty interesting but she wasnt a good person. & jane wasnt strong like anne so she couldnt stop the death & if she was then henry would kill her 2.

[persephonethemad]

Actually no, she didn't seduce Henry. She only played up to his attraction at first to get back at him for ending her betrothal to Percy. She fell in love.

And how come being Protestant doesn't make you relgious? So she didn't stick to the relgion of her childhood, she made an informed choice and converted to being Lutheran. She never claimed to be Catholic.

[DivineGurl342]

she seduced henry so she can get ahead in life and what u just said played up to his attraction is pretty much the same as seducing. and by her changing religions especially in a time when she thought it would be best for her shows that she doesnt care about her religion just her. and she did claim to be catholic and a practicing one when she said she keeps a cross close to her heart when in france when she was beside the lutherans...which is hypicritical

[Sztriki86]

It's interesting what u say about Anne and her being truly religious or not.I don't agree with you,because the fact that she was a reformer,doesn't mean she wasn't deeply religious,because she was,it's just that she was more free-minded than most people,and had her own thoughts about religion,and she tended to believe more in God than the Catholic church's dogmas.But your view makes an interesting point also!That's why it's good to talk and argue(peacefully!!)about it!:)

[DivineGurl342]

thank you everyone is getting mad at me and giving me some thumbs down but i think ppl are taking somethings out of content or just mad cause i dont like anne. I'm not saying she wasnt religious i just dont think she was as religious as she claimed to be and did use the reformed faith for her advantage

[AndromedaMariaCarmen]

you're not allowed to defend Anne on here, you just get thumbed down!

[lookinglass123]

Why do you think Katherine Howard's morals were questionable?

[Ladyjaxs]

sexism plain and simple!

[AnaliaHyrule]

what?

[Ladyjaxs]

She was asking why KH morals are questionable. I responded sexism, because people tend to question women's moral more then they do men's. A man can go out and sleep with whoever he wants, but if woman does it then she is a slut etc. I think this can be apply to Katherine howards situation.

[AnaliaHyrule]

I agree. :)

[halyie]

@persephonethemad anne didnt become his mistress cause

she was to smart she knew he would get bored of her

and she couldnt get what she wanted and that was to be

queen

[peacedesertrose]

@persephonethemad Oh yeah, Anne had really good morals.. manipulative, ambitious and quick tempered. She wanted Catherine and Mary dead lets not forget. She may have been very religious, but at least Jane showed kindness to Mary which Anne never did. And I'm sure Anne would have done exactly the same in Jane's position if Catherine had been executed in order for her to be queen. Anne is very interesting women though, I don't deny that.

[y78ejgh]

She's right, Jane Seymour rules OK!