Amy in the Morning 2/11/09 Will you vaccinate now?

[chiropractic47]

It was two months ago that a leading independent research team that tagged SIDS to the hepatitis B vaccine given to babies shortly after birth (Mercola.com)

[chiropractic47]

I have a very busy chiropractic practice and have many families with autistic children. Everyone of these parent understand it was the MMR that caused their child to become autistic.

[johnnytabaiee]

@chiropractic47 You bet it did.....

[mutopian1]

My friends son is severely damaged by the mmr vaccine, and she knows it was caused by this. One day he was a normal child, the next day brain damaged and now severely autistic. He is 14 years old and still in diapers. Wakefield didn't falsify anything, the GMC did. I know it's hard to believe people lie, but they do, and not who you think. Consider who has the bigggest motivation to lie. Please don;t just listen to the mass media, it's full of crap to make you react. Result.

[SelfishMom]

@benjamintheblue See, that's the hardest part about this debate. It pits people with statistics behind them against emotional moms looking for answers. I can't simply believe something with absolutely no evidence behind it because you're dealing with a sick child. And it breaks my heart what you and many moms like you are going through. But that has to be separated from actual evidence so that a cure can be found. Making this an emotional debate allows unvaccinated kids to die in the meantime.

[gmarc166]

I'm still looking for studies and haven't found any. What I have found is an article about the Homefirst Health Services in Chicago. This is a quote: "We have a fairly large practice. We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines," said Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Homefirst's medical director who founded the practice in 1973.

[gmarc166]

You say study after study has been done - could you please provide the links? From what I've read, no studies have been done between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids, so I'd like to see where you got your information from just so that I can read through it. The rate of autism in the USA is 1 in 150, the rate in Denmark is 1 in 2,200. The difference? The USA has 36 mandated childhood vaccines. Denmark has 12. How do you explain this?

[SelfishMom]

@gmarc166 I tried about 15 different ways to post links here but youtube simply won't let them go through. They were ridiculously easy to find, BTW. So I sent them directly to you in a message, & that went through. The problem with your argument is that you're stuck on one possible cause out of an unlimited number of causes. It's like a detective who decides five minutes after a murder who the killer is, and ignores any evidence that points to someone else.

[gmarc166]

@SelfishMom Did I say I was stuck on one reason? No, that was your assumption. I just asked for links (the one you gave me didn't work). I did a search and I still can't find any studies done - I'm talking about proper studies done by the Government/pharmaceutical companies/CDC. I did find one done by the Danish authorities, but that wasn't vaccinated/unvaccinated - it was merely MMR recipients/non-MMR recipients which isn't what I'm looking for.

[gmarc166]

@SelfishMom Finally got your link to work - this isn't what I'm looking for either though. These focus on MMR v non-MMR, rather than vaccinated v totally unvaccinated.

[SelfishMom]

@gmarc166 Sorry, I'm sick of doing your research for you. I found a ton of studies in just a few minutes of googling, I'm sure you can do the same. What I meant about being stuck on one reason is being stuck on the vaccine/autism link. I posted this video two years ago, I'm done talking about it unless you can bring something new and/or interesting to the conversation.

[gmarc166]

@SelfishMom You said study after study had been done on vaccinated v unvaccinated. I asked you to provide your sources - the source you provided proved to be studies done on one type of vaccine as opposed to another. I am doing my own research, thanks all the same.

[promiseIsaih60]

BritishMedicalJournal& The Lancet wedded to Merck CME partnership. wwwdotahrpdotorg/cms/content/v­­­iew/766/9/Why did the BMJ fail to disclose its partnership agreement with Merck, major vaccine manufacturer--13 vaccines, including the controversial MMR vaccineIs?

[sarlene90574]

I'm sorry but you are wrong about that

[sarlene90574]

What I said was there has been no study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There hasn't.

[SelfishMom]

@sarlene90574 Yes there have been, that's how they come to their conclusions: comparing the rate of autism for vaccinated children to the rate of autism for unvaccinated children. Only looking at one wouldn't really be of any use.

[sarlene90574]

Please at least get your facts straight - you say that study after study has shown no difference in the rates of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There has been no such study. This in fact is the type of study that needs to occur to show once and for all such a link or the lack thereof. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to happen any time soon - drug companies have too much to lose.

[SelfishMom]

@sarlene90574 No, it's happened many, many times. It doesn't take money (at least not much), and it doesn't take cooperation, and nobody has to fight the drug companies to do it. All they do is look up the statistics and study the numbers, and yes, STUDY AFTER STUDY has shown that there is no correlation between vaccinations and autism. Not sure why some people find this so hard to believe, they just have their own agenda I guess, blinding them to statistical realities.

[benjamintheblue]

How ironic u are calling people stupid :) It wasnt the study that caused the panic. It was the british media. It was a small study, that didnt prove anything without further evidence. They have a flavour of the month. Pitbulls. Pheadophiles, knife crime. I have to cut u off halfway, as you are thick. You have researched this from programmes and newspapers and in ur head. You have no idea of what the study proved, what wakefield said, or even that it was the lancet. You talk rubbish

[momofxantyce]

@Sleep City, how many times are you gonna say I am ignorant! Sheesh!! Have a little respect for people. Most decent people wouldn't personally attack the mother of a special needs child. My posts are all about my son's experience. Not every child has a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder, but dr's aren't testing for this BEFORE vaccines. Your beloved scientists should know better. Oh, by the way, got to meet Dr. Wakefield a few wks. ago. What a nice and humble man :)

[sleepcity]

"SelfishMom" says it all. You are selfish. Selfish for thinking you know more than the consensus of the world's physicians and biomedical researchers. For buying into the "Mommy instinct" movement celebrities promote to get you to buy their books. For failing to graciously acknowledge that you might be out of your element -- something humble, decent people do all the time. It's okay you're not an expert. It's not okay that you pretend to speak with authority on this.

[thewholesoul]

"Put autism aside, please google "vaccine injury" and read the horror stories for yourself"

She is not going to do that because her mind is closed. apparently she has it all figured out after hearing one news broadcast.

Amy, were you aware that the total awards paid as of august 6 2008 by the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was $1,804,415,262.35 ?

[thewholesoul]

Youtube "CDC Chief Admits that Vaccines Trigger Autism" and you will see Julie Gerberding admit that vaccines can cause autism if the person has an underlying genetic disorder.

Were you "aware" of this fact Amy?

How many individuals have this underlying genetic disorder Amy?

Dont you agree that children should be FIRST tested to determine whether they have this disorder BEFORE injecting thimerasol into their blood which the chief of the CDC admits can cause autism?

[SelfishMom]

Yes, I was "aware" of that fact (not sure what the quotes are about, but I'll play along). It's old news. Vaccinations - and many many other factors that cause fevers - can possibly trigger autism. If you're 100% behind keeping vaccines, which help many many more kids than they may possible in some tenuous way hurt, and are simply arguing for testing for certain disorders beforehand, I'm all for that. But that's not what you're for. Or else you wouldn't have been spouting the other statistics.

[SelfishMom]

Furthermore, you're clouding the real argument. The ability of a passionate but misguided minority to endanger many.

Like I said, I don't have time for this. You can taunt with whatever you think I should be "aware" of, but I'm done. I'll leave you with this: Brooklyn, where I live, where many many parents are anti-vaccine, is seeing the biggest outbreak of measles in memory. It's highly contagious, and babies under 1 can't get the vaccine, they're relying on the rest of us to protect them.

[thewholesoul]

"you're clouding the real argument"

I am stating fact after fact and you have nothing in response only evasion

Measles outbreaks can occur in fully vaccinated areas as well. You would be aware of this fact if you did some more research

If vaccines worked then you would have life long immunity but because they dont always work provaccine moms seek to blame nonvaccinated individuals when logically they SHOULD blame the vaccine companies for giving them an ineffective vaccine!

[thewholesoul]

"Brooklyn, where I live is seeing the biggest outbreak of measles in memory"

I'm curious, are you talking about the current outbreak or a previous year? Because your hyperbole is unfounded.

45 suspected cases

26 confirmed cases

0 deaths

[thewholesoul]

"Vaccinations...can possibly trigger autism"

Correction, they do cause autism to certain individuals with an underlying genetic disorder who are unable to excrete the mercury as would normal children.

"But that's not what you're for."

You dont know what I am for so stop being so presumptious. I am pro safety not anti vaccine.

The statistics were in relation to thimerasol. It is a neurotoxin. Vaccines would be "safer" without this neurotoxin being added. Wouldnt you agree?

[smithcd77]

Hi, wholesoul. YES, I do agree that children should be tested before injected with a vaccine. It's not just the thimerosol. Autism is "immune system assault." Vaccines can and do over-stimulate the immune system and send it over the edge. By the way, my son has autism, is full of metals, yeast, bacteria, etc. We did not find out til THIS YEAR that he has a mitochondrial disorder. It is a medical fact that mito kids are NOT supposed to be vaccinated. I guess his life didn't mean much to them.

[thewholesoul]

Hi Smith,

Truly sorry that your son was yet another victim for profit and medical malpractice.

I am sure you are up to date on the certain recovery measures that are available.

Dr Rashid Buttar [youtube] "Part 1: The Vaccine-Autism Connection" discusses a very effective lotion.

I would also recommend Jenny McCarthy's web site "generation rescue" for solid information on recovery measures.

Take care

[smithcd77]

Yes, my son has been gluten free since 3 1/2 or so. He is on tons of vitamins, we have treated his gut problems and are chelating him to get rid of metals. I am actually a Rescue Angel through Generation Rescue. By the way, my son had a Hep B reaction in the hospital. Profuse sweating..nurses had to be called in. By the way, there has NEVER been a true vaccinated vs unvaccinated study like Amy says. We have been begging for this. The government will never admit harm.

[thewholesoul]

"I am actually a Rescue Angel through Generation Rescue"

Good for you, I live in Chile now and have just started a blog informing peole on vaccine injury. The Ministry of Health has decided NOT to remove the thimerasol from vaccines!! Its an outright disgrace.

"my son had a Hep B reaction"

There is absolutely no justification for that vaccine!

"there has NEVER been a true vaccinated vs unvaccinated study like Amy says"

Amy, like so many unfortunately, are grossly uninformed

[sleepcity]

@thewholesoul You guys do realize you sound like full-fledged cult members, right?

Please go get a basic, high school-level education in biology before you start blathering to everyone about how you know more about the (unknown) etiology of a very complex disease, the safety and efficacy of vaccines, encephalopathy, congenital development disorders, etc. etc. etc. than THE ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY OF THE WORLD.

What are your credentials? Who the hell are you?!

[sleepcity]

@smithcd77 You're deluding yourself. It's sad and pathetic. Grow up and learn some basic high school biology before you start telling nearly every scientist in the world (all of whom have more college than you I'm willing to bet) that they are wrong and your "mommy-instinct" means more than their REAL research. Thanks!

[smithcd77]

Wow, sleepcity. You are just plain mean. I do have a Bachelor's Degree and 4-5 years of mental health experience. My husband has his degree as well. We didn't ask for an injured child. This is what life has given us. Man made vaccines, so of course there can be and are fatal mistakes...autism or not. If you are such a statistics freak, you can simply look up "vaccine deaths/injuries" and a multitude of things will come up. This isn't new "science."

[sleepcity]

Is your bachelor's in biology? Chemistry? I'm willing to bet it's not in science because you clearly don't understand the scientific method.

Right...simple statistics. On the one hand we have millions upon millions of lives saved and permanent disability prevented. On the other we have exceedingly rare (though very real) adverse reactions. These adverse reactions are often autoimmune reactions and the mechanisms by which they happen are understood.

Basic cost/benefit analysis helps us here.

[smithcd77]

Exactly...AUTO-IMMUNE. My son has a HORRIBLE immune system. He can't eat sugar without getting a white tongue from yeast. He has bowel issues and used to vomit all through the night. The beloved DOCTORS blew me off. This is where the "mommy science" stuff comes in. Either I listen to the dr's and he keeps vomitting, keeps being miserable, OR I research myself and try to help him. The vomiting stopped within days amongst many other things. His immune system was not ready for vaccines.

[sleepcity]

Do you have a degree in biology? Did you do 4 years of med school then residency and then a fellowship in neurology? No? Then why do you know more than everyone else? Why haven't you won a Nobel Prize yet?

Just because science doesn't understand something (yet) doesn't mean that the woo-peddlers are right, that doctors are bad or in the pocket of "Big Pharma", that you know more than they do.

There's no such thing as "mommy science". There's real science, and there's pseudoscience.

[sleepcity]

@smithcd77 If you knew anything at all about basic science you would have learned that correlation does not equal causation. This is a simple idea but a powerful one. If your son started deteriorating soon after he received a vaccine it doesn't THEREFORE mean that the vaccine CAUSED his deterioration. Let's put on our thinking cap here, mom. It doesn't THEREFORE follow that doctors know nothing. What did you do that miraculously stopped his vomiting? Strangely you don't say. Lose the ego, lady.

[smithcd77]

Sleepcity, I feel sorry for you. I do not come off as ignorant. It is you. You don't see any type of character assassinations in my posts. When you call people ignorant amongst other things, it simply makes your argument weak. I also feel sorry for people who blindly trust dr's and scientists. The nurses I used to work with were much more caring and in tune with the patients than the dr's who saw them for 5 min. Dr's study a broad amount of things and admittedly little on autism.

[sleepcity]

@smithcd77 You are ignorant. It's not an attempt at winning anything, I'm just acknowledging it. Either everybody's an expert (like in Jenny McCarthy's world) or some people don't know what they're talking about. I wonder if you subject pilots and astronauts to such scrutiny). Without doctors could the nurses care for these patients properly? Improve and/or cure their condition? Yeah, I'd like to see that hospital.

[smithcd77]

Oh, and removing gluten and food dyes caused his vomitting to "miraculously" stop. It kills me how rude you are. This is my son you are talking about. How about "Wow, I am glad he feels better now." I am not selling anything here. Diet changed helped him unimaginably. Studies by SCIENTISTS have shown peptides of gluten/casein in the urine of people with autism indicating that these things are leaking out of the gut. Look it up if you think I am "ignorant." I am so thankful I did my own research.

[sleepcity]

@smithcd77 You really do have a hard time with numbers, don't you? It's okay...I'm no math genius but I think you really show your cards when you say things like "If you are such a statistics freak, you can simply look up "vaccine deaths/injuries" and a multitude of things will come up." Um...obviously? Do you understand why? Do you understand the relative rates of adverse reaction? Do you understand basic epidemiology?

[sleepcity]

@thewholesoul Ooooh! Yes, it's all a VAST WORLWIDE CONSPIRACY! Everyone's paid off in the interest of hurting the little children! Bush caused 9/11! UFOs landed at Roswell! Vitamins cure everything! Masons killed JFK!

lol

Oh please...grow up. The world is a complicated place. Be humble and admit that there are some things we don't know, some things we may never know, uncertainty is a part of life, and the way to proceed is with reason and evidence. Not conspiracy theory bullshit.

[sleepcity]

@smithcd77 I have an interest in mitochondrial disease -- they are extremely rare and children are not routinely screened for them. If his doctors didn't know that he had this, and he should not have been vaccinated, why does it necessarily follow that vaccines = autism? Please explain your (il)logic.

The cause of autism is not yet known. Let's focus on finding out what really causes it rather than promoting conspiracy theory bullshit. It just makes you look SUPER ignorant!

[thewholesoul]

In 1967, a study in Applied Microbiology found Thimerosal killed mice when added to vaccines.

In 1972, Lilly´s found Thimerosal to be toxic to tissue cells in concentrations as low as one part per million (PPM), 100 times weaker than the in a typical vaccine.

In 1977, ten babies at a Toronto hospital died when an antiseptic preserved with Thimerosal was dabbed on their umbilical cords.

[thewholesoul]

•In 1935 a study Pittman conducted with dogs injected with thimerosal-based vaccines, half of the dogs fell ill prompting researchers to declare the preservative unsatisfactory as a serum intended for use on dogs.

In 1982, the FDA proposed a ban on over-the-counter products containing Thimerosal

In 1991, the CDC recommended infants be injected with a series of mercury-laced vaccines.

[tim6class]

It may be 6:30am, and you may have a terrible dialogue for that early; but you are RIGHT ON Amy!!! Thanks for spreading a good and correct message about vaccinations. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Please people. Just get your kids vaccinated.

[thewholesoul]

Please people, dont listen to tim6class or Selfishmom because they are both grossly uninformed on the issue.

Dont listen to me either think for yourself, do your own research on pro and anti vaccine sites.

Are you going to believe parents and their real life horror stories OR are you going to believe faceless, profit driven, and ultimately unaccountable vaccine companies?

Google "Ian's voice home page" [*warming to parents images may be disturbing]

[JasterRouge]

This vaccine bullcrap has got to stop. If you believe these Andrew Wakefield lies, then you obviously are not informed about these things.

[mommy2jj]

By the way why are parents who believe that vac are great worried about my unvac kid. If your child is immune to a disease what should it matter if my kid isn't

[SelfishMom]

If you had done your research you would be able to answer that question.

[mommy2jj]

That was sarcasm. I already know the answer

[SelfishMom]

Well, no then, apparently you don't. Now I'm curious to know what you think the answer to that question is.

[mommy2jj]

You have got to be kidding!!!! I can't believe that as a mom you can base your opinion on what one journalist reports. Last I checked they aren't unbiased or always correct. I am a mom who does her research and if you have no problem with injecting your child with poison after poison be my guest. My child is vaccinated and does have autism and you can directly correlate it to his mmr shot. We are not saying every kid who get vac will have autism but maybe the shots should be spread out more

[SelfishMom]

Like I said, you are too emotionally connected to the issue to have a reasonable discussion. I feel bad for you, your daughter is beautiful and I can't imagine what you're going through. But it helps no one to believe irrational beliefs just because you are looking for reason and justice in facing the unfairness of having a sick child. If it makes you feel better to rail against me here, go ahead, I can take it. I can't even imagine

[SelfishMom]

the pain you're going through, so if you want to aim your anger at me, if that makes you feel better, fine. But like I said, you're confusing the difficulty and sadness of the disease with what might have caused it. It's one of those instances where I would love to be wrong, because that would at least point to a solution. I'm lucky enough to have two healthy children and should that ever change, I hope that there will be rational, clear-headed people out there looking for answers on my behalf.

[thewholesoul]

Hey Amy.

EPA daily thimerasol limit = 0.1 ug/kg

The DPT shot contains 25ug of thimerasol.

unless a child is born weighing 25 kilograms then just one shot of DPT exceeds the EPA limit

[SelfishMom]

Seeing as your math is off by a factor of ten, I'm unlikely to take anything you say seriously.

[thewholesoul]

It is a fact, not fiction, that the EPA daily exposure limit for thimerasol is 0.1 µg/kg body weight/day. You can verify this fact simply google "FDA 0.1 µg/kg body weight/day".

It is a fact, not fiction, that several vaccines contain 25 micrograms/µg per dose. You can verify this fact by googling

"Vaccine Safety thimerasol".

Therefore injecting a baby weighing 5 kg exceeds the EPA daily exposure limit times 50.

You were "unaware" of this fact, right?

[thewholesoul]

youtube "How Mercury Kills the Brain ~ Autism" and you will see an experiment whereby brain nerve endings are exposed to mercury. You can then SEE why mercury is acknowledged as a the second most deadly "neurotoxin" known to man.

[SelfishMom]

You're barking up the wrong tree arguing this with me. The misinformation put out by those convinced beyond all doubt that one thing causes another is incredible, and I'm not going to spend my time running down every claim. The bottom line is that if you think there's only one answer, then you're going to ask the wrong questions. That's not science and it won't help find out what's causing autism.

[thewholesoul]

"I'm not going to spend my time running down every claim".

Unwillingness to research will not make you more informed.

"The bottom line is that if you think there's only one answer"

Strawman, I do not believe that vaccines are the only cause of autism.

"That's not science and it won't help find out what's causing autism."

You have no backgorund in science so you dont know what your talking about mam.

[sleepcity]

@thewholesoul You've obviously never earned a science degree. Something demonstrated in vitro does not necessarily translate to in vivo models or in human populations. Of course this is a whole realm of science you obviously know nothing about. Keep on buying those books and pretending to be informed though....

[Sassifrassilassi]

Vaccines are not the greatest invention of the 20th century by the way. You are brainwashed. Most of the disease we are vaccinated for were on the decline BEFORE the vaccines came out. Educate yourself. Us "stupid" parents have.

[Sassifrassilassi]

I am not jumping on any bandwagon. These parents are not either. We have seen this with our own eyes. We live this everyday. Some kids cannot handle the load of the vaccine. Their immune systems can not handle it. Study after study can be done, but until an independent study is done with no interference from drug companies, no study will be taken seriously.

Unvaccinated kids are putting NO ONE in danger.

[Sassifrassilassi]

Basing their conclusions on nothing?

Easy for you to say until you're the parent of a normally developing child who suddenly regresses into autism after receiving the MMR. Then the child has major digestive and bowel issues causing all sorts of horrible problems. Don't talk about things you know nothing about. Olberman retracted his statement and Brian Deer will most likely be fired for lying. Go away.

[SelfishMom]

You, like others who are emotionally connected to this issue, are confusing two arguments. What you are doing is making it sound like anyone who wants actual proof of an autism-vaccination link before people stop vaccinating their children, is insensitive to the plight of kids with autism and their families. You are wrong and it is irresponsible for you to try to smear people in this way. I would think that it would be in those families' best interest to find the cause, not jump on a bandwagon.