Original Sin: a further response

[Flymagnet2007]

So Chris, others are misguided because of mistranslation. being one of them (damn power mad Catholics) and the best of all - the 'hope' that you've got it right. Can't you see what a veritable shopping list of excuses this is ? Maybe this, maybe that, don't know but .... etc etc.

You do know the history of the Bible do you not, culminating in the Council of Nicaea? Ever considered that this is why it is so incoherent - it was designed by committee?

[christoferL]

@Flymagnet2007 Its not really a matter of the translation but the understanding of the passage... but if I remember right I had to refer to translations because of his choice of a translation - GWT - it was not as literal as it needed to be.

[robertobrian6]

Christofer In your video you say you beleive that God will deal with those peoples who never heard of Jesus individualy, Where does it say that in the bible? I hope you didn;t just made it up.

Peace

[christoferL]

Every man will be judged - no?

[BreshiBaraElohim]

Ahh...finally a man of GOD, on YT.

[ChristianNewsWatch]

There was a part 1... lol

Maybe Chris deleted it. lol

Just kidding Chris... considering how much I believe different from mainstream I've never known Chris to delete any of my posts. :)

Part 1 was primary me just saying that I see a difference between salvation and reconciliation... hard to explain in these little boxes without posting a bunch, so if you'd like to ask me any questions Hybrid, feel free to message me.

I'll just say, spiritual truth rarely makes sense to the human mind.

Peace

[ChristianNewsWatch]

Part 2 @Hybrid...

YES, I'm suggesting that there is evil in the world still, but it is not being counted as sin...

Pray for guidance and do a close study on "repentance"... You'll see that Jesus was calling the JEWS (under Law) to change their mind about being right before God based on their WORKS... to rather realize that they couldn't be good enough and to just trust in the Messiah for their righteousness.

I'll leave it at that... in the Lord's hands...

[scjason420]

Nah, I personally don't title myself other than Christian.

I think God made everything and he knows everything therefor when he made some people he knew they were going to hell... ergo he made them for dishonor/hell.

I don't think it's mans choice to believe in God because without God calling you to him and choosing you there's no way one can understand the gospel.

I have no problem with the idea of God creating some vessels for dishonor/hell.

[Dorakuwel]

Don't forget that the gift of Free Will was given to ALL mankind, so by GOD creating someone who would be destined to hell, one can NEVER deny that the person in Question was the sole author of his fate. To take free will from one newly created is to take from all, just as to give free will to one is to give it to all. The reason only the elect can understand the gospel is because those who use their free will to serve Satan have made their choice of a master and therefore no longer hear GOD.

[scjason420]

Can you please reference me the scriptures that say we have free will?

I did a quick search and couldn't find any but maybe I just missed it.

[christoferL]

Thanks for the info - Ill look into it - as Ive always heard the NASB was the most literal...

[christoferL]

Its a pleasure to discuss this topic with you. Its something I think Christians should discuss more of but usually won't. Its good to explore the Bible in prayer - seeking...

[ChristianNewsWatch]

Just something to ponder...

Hebrews 9:26

Then Jesus would have had to suffer many times since the world was made. But Christ came only ONCE and for all time at just the right time to take away ALL SIN by sacrificing himself.

For anyone born since Jesus died / rose... are they still "born in sin"... DOES ANYONE STILL HAVE SIN NOWADAYS???

If sin still exists, Jesus failed... (Daniel 9:24 / 2 Cor 5:19)

Sin is only sin when there is the Law, where there is no Law, evil isn't counted as sin.

:)

[christoferL]

CNW - just another thought to that - the fact that Jesus died once for all - being God - He is not restricted by time - so why would He need to suffer many times?

[scjason420]

Cool, I'm going to go check out these verses and look into it some more.

Thanks for all the references.

[scjason420]

Well what do you think it is saying then?

I wasn't trying to argue I was just curious about your differing opinion. :)

[scjason420]

Thanks but I was referring to Romans 9 19-24ish

What do you think about that?

[redbaron998]

To me "Heard the Gospels" means understood, and believed it to be true. Now if they believe it to be true, and then reject it? well thats something different. But if they are truly seeking God, but through honest prayer and study have decided it is meerly not the best way to grow in understanding with God (I know you disagree but bear with me)

I cant see how God would punish those who through thier lives sencerely thought God, but came to a different answer.

[redbaron998]

I think we are misinterupting "Heard the Gospel" Most people in the world have heard of Jesus in some manner, but do not have sufficent reason to believe in it. (people who presented it were great Hypocrites, or upon examination and honest study of it decided it was not the truth on God)

[christoferL]

good point red

[scjason420]

What about making one vessel to honor and another vessel to dishonor?

God made some people to go to hell and some to be saved. He wanted to show his mercy and therefor needed some who would not receive his grace.

Predestination for the win! Become a missionary to the bush man or don't worry about him. Bringing up the hypothetical about who may or may not have heard the gospel is moot.

If God intended for someone to hear the gospel then they will.

[christoferL]

scjason - I simply don't believe God made anyone with the express purpose of burning - but I do believe He made everyone knowing that most would choose to refuse Him - thus - most would go to hell...

[scjason420]

Yea, I don't worry about it too much I guess.

I focus more on the positive side of things and don't worry too much about hell aside from making sure I don't go there.

But I think God's sovereignty should trump the "what about the guy in the middle of africa" hypothetical.

[cliffw77]

I suggest you read the bible and not calvin's insitutes...this comment is a prime example of how calvinists misrepresent a Holy and perfect God with the hyperinflated Idea of God's Soverignty...God Chose to make man in his image and thus Man has the capacityt to accept or reject the Conviction of the Holy Spirit. As for Romans 9, Did Paul write that in a vacum, forgetting everything elese he wrote in Romans?

[scjason420]

How is it possible to have a hyper inflated idea of God's sovereignty? I'm sure he is more sovereign than I could even give him credit for.

As for reading the bible, I do, thanks.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say calvin institutes nor do I call myself a calvinist.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Romans 9.

[cliffw77]

God does not Deny the choice of eternal life to anyone, We are free to Obey the Holy Spirit or not. This overinflated predestination doctrine is the mark of a calvinist ok...so just like the calvinist's who run around and call everyone who disagrees with them an arminist , when you take the view that you do, you will be called a calvinist. God is Sovergin...He doesn't need us or anything like that, yet he Chose to give man free will and has predestined those who he foreknew to eternal life-

[cliffw77]

- And those who reject him to eternal damnation...and if you believe that those who have not heard the gospel are damned to hell, I suppose you also believe in two seperate hells or somthing , because Jesus did say it is better to not hear the Gospel, than to hear it and reject it. As for Romans 9 Does the Scripture not tell us who God has compassion on? Again Paul didn't write this in a vacum and the readers didn't read it in a vacum.

[scjason420]

"and has predestined those who he foreknew to eternal life- "

what do you mean by this then?

[cliffw77]

Just what is sounds like bro...God knows all things, He knows who will accept him and who will reject him, He declares the End form the Beging, He created Time itself and is not bound by it. God knows everything on intaminte terms...This does not imply that he causes all things to happen but rather that he knows what freewilled man will do..nothing you do will ever suroprise God.

[christoferL]

TrueHybrid - I didn't want to get into that - but I have read something in the Jewish rabbi discussions that that was exactly the case. Since I couldn't find the reference - I left it alone - but you're right.

[SaintCog]

Great back and forth dialogue...

BTW @3:46 hyperbole pronunciation HIGH-PURR-BOWL-E

not hyperbowl (or just use the word exaggerated)

[christoferL]

SaintCog - oops - thanks

[truthsintheword]

What about Romans 1:18

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I agree with you Chris.

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Nevertheless, Gospel is the most important thing to understand. So many people today think that Gospel is just the FIRST STEP to Christianity and then they can go to deeper/mayor things. THERE IS NOTHING AS DEEP AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST!!! YOU WON'T COMPREHEND IT EVEN AFTER LIVING MILLION ETERNITIES!

When Christ comes back to Earth redeem His slaves, EVERYONE becomes aware and understands completely the revelations, but NO-ONE, EVEN AT THAT MOMENT, WILL BEGIN TO GRASP THE GOSPEL!

[InSlaveryToChrist]

We sort things by what we see ourselves is important, but don't often realize that IF GOD HAS TOLD US TO DO SOMETHING, THEN IT IS ONE OF OUR TOP PRIORITY!

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I just realized something that made me very happy:

ChristoferL, I know you completely agree with me when I say it's IMPORTANT to spread the Gospel.

Here is my point: Would it make any difference in the IMPORTANCE of spreading the Gospel, if people automatically went to hell? -NO!

Why? -As long as IT'S God's will for us to spread the Gospel, our own opinions should not have any kind of impact on the IMPORTANCE of spreading the Gospel.

God bless!

[cliffw77]

Everyone will be judged according to their works. Those who hear and Reject Christ will be judged by that, others who have not heard by other standards in my view