Gloria-Messe de Notre Dame, Guillaume de Machaut. Ensemble Organum

[MrSintime]

This was made close to the year I was born originally. Wow, youtube does really have it all.

[VelikyUstyug1]

I always return to this interpretation- because it penetrates to the quick the soul. No academic pussyfooting around here- this punches you in the heart and grabs you by the spine.

[frenchiecocorico1]

I am surprised nobody noticed this rendition used the traditionnal Corsican manner to sing vocal music  (I muvrini, A Fileta, etc...). At the beginning of this Mass "Our Lady" I guess the singers were Corsicans themselves because only real Corsicans could sing melismas on that way.

Je suis surpris que personne n'ait relevé que cette version utilise la façon traditionnelle Corse du chant; Les chanteurs du début doivent être Corses car eux seuls peuvent réaliser ainsi de tels mélismes.

[bayonne64able]

@frenchiecocorico1 le répertoire corse est puisé directement dans le chant grégorien et orthodoxe

[frenchiecocorico1]

@bayonne64able Première nouvelle, je ne savais pas que les russes avaient envahi la Corse. Non, le répertoire Corse provient de la polyphonie de l'Ars Nova introduite par les Génois en Corse au moyen âge et c'est avec raison que cet ensemble a utilisé pour débuter cette oeuvre un introït traditionnel Corse car la Corse a gardé cette façon multi-séculaire occidentale catholique de chanter qui est la même que celle utilisée à l'époque de Machaut. Le chant grégorien est monodique (1 seule voix)

[bayonne64able]

@frenchiecocorico1 En fait de compte ce sont des chants du Moyen Age en grégorien, Les corse se sont directement inspiré de la mélodie Grégorienne. C'est le chant grégorien qui a codifié la musique et le chant au Moyen age jusquà nos jours - Les pays méditerraneens l'on préservé et transmist tout cela grace aux moines du Moyen age, aux croisés, aux troubadours et trouvères...et à quelques corses...

[VelikyUstyug1]

This is what you get when you add the Southeastern Slavic heart to Machaut- a stunning gripping performance that reveals many other fine performances for the soul-shams that I suspected not... until I heard this. A million bravos to these men!!!!!!!!!!

[SpanishBogatyr]

@VelikyUstyug1 It sounds like spanish mozarabic chant too, is similar to the byzantine.

[repdogg94]

it's incredible that people of today can appreciate and even perform this beautiful piece of medieval music... we are really lucky in that sense

[NatalkaPetrenko]

This throaty style of vocalizing reminds me a little of folk singing, for example Ukrainian, Russian, or Bulgarian style of folk singing. I wonder what folk music was like in France in Machaut's day; professional and folk music have always influenced one another.

[ZXUL23]

Send a prayer to God, and pick up your sword.

[eatsmaqqz]

could anybody tell me which ensemble made this recording?

[mgalangzingme12]

@eatsmaqqz

I've included this information. It's by Ensemble Organum.

[tonnze]

kyrie gloria credo sanctus agnus Dei

[TheLimacarvalho]

simplesmente fantástico.

sem mais.

[mcouzijn]

The response of some people here make me think that they actually close their ears to good music, and only accept music that is performed according to their - equally time-bound - criteria.

Just imagine how the way 'we' play Bach today, of Vivaldi, or Monteverdi, differs from the way our grandparents heard it. That is a HUGE difference. Yet both our grandparents AND we insist that 'now' it is played in the 'right way'. Our grandchildren will undoubtedly accommodate to yet another playing style.

[starbreez3]

@mcouzijn I got to agree, our reality is adapted to our time.

[fcentaur]

Laudetur Jesus Christus!

[libilproductions]

the ornaments are beautiful. great song

[sarum1surplice]

A ridiculous performance. There is absolutely NO historical evidence that this should be performed like this. The tenor on top should be shot!

[markvking]

@sarum1surplice I'm with you--I don't believe this kind of caterwauling was ever accepted in the mass--no matter when. The tenor WOULD have been shot!

[ceadachrua]

@sarum1surplice ....wow. Whatever you think of the performance this is still _sacred_ music. Our lord Christ would not recommend shooting

anyone singing his praises...you think?

What is your evident that this music was not performed in this way?

[anythingarian]

Excellent! Exaggerated french latin pronunciation just adds to the somewhat eerie and alien nature of this music.

[TheBubimesch]

Ma per favore, è assolutamente una pessima resa, cosa sono queste urla, questa potenza ingiustificata?

[Ameretat010]

I listened to this mass for a university exam and expected nothing special. I put my headphones on and pushed play, in that dark room, at 2 am. The Gloria, started and I almost fell out of my chair. This is definitely my favorite interpretation of it. The ornaments remind me a bit of byzantine church music.

[babykitten77]

wow this is awesome. I'm learning about machaut right now in class and I wasn't expecting to hear a lot of the interesting harmonies and rhythms he's using...  and this sounds like its being sung by a European group. This song is incredibly old its amazing

[nicodagger]

a very unique and interesting rendition, the ornaments remind me of the Troubador music of Provence a couple hundred years earlier, this feels more raw and passionate, the way a black church would do it, rather than the "proper" white Catholics.

[Universalist27]

@nicodagger , I would say it sounds more like a mozarabic Spanish rendition of it but definately good

[Shanniquitie]

i am moved. thank you, such beauty.

[VelikyUstyug1]

The ornamental 7ths indicate an Eastern European presence interpretively. That said... I've listened to this performances of this piece over 30 years and this is the best. Why? Because it is performed NOT through the filter of academicism. Thank you for the lack of fake politically correct angelicism in your performance practice... whoever you are.

[Alberich36]

@VelikyUstyug1 It is through academicism that people have begun thinking the music may have sounded like this. The truth is, we don't know how it sounded back then, and the best we can do is make educated guesses. This could be just as close to the truth as other "angelic" recordings, although how those recordings would be considered politically correct completely eludes me.

[Burnicateur]

Very good! Voices really seem to come from middle age

[mgalangzingme12]

But keep in mind that latin in particular areas, countries sounded different due to the common language and it's specific characteristics. But i agree, that they egzaggerate a bit and it can be annoying;)

[mcouzijn]

@mgalangzingme12: Everyone of us has a right to like or dislike this way of singing. There may be good or bad arguments as to why such singing is (un)historical. But the point is: that does not in itself qualify or disqualify this as 'good music'.

It is impossible to arrive at a 'one and only' 'perfect' way of interpreting music. It was sung in several places in Europe, in different centuries, by choirs and directors with different habits.

Let's open our ears to, and enjoy, the huge variety!

[Burnicateur]

I am french, and I learned latin, I don't think that these voices are bad, this style is very french medieval.

[AB101CFE]

Les "u" se prononcent "ou" en latin, ce n'est pas "Agnus" mais "Agnous" par exemple, enfin il me semble... Dans la prononciation selon Saint Pie X du latin c'est comme ça.

[Burnicateur]

exactement. Et dans agnus on prononce toutes les lettres, les gens font souvent l'erreur de prononcer gn à la française c'est à dire anius, hors on doit entendre agu-nus.

[tenor9216]

en fait dire "agnus" est une façon de prononcer le latin, à la française. à ce temps, il n'y avait pas de prononciation standard du latin, donc un compositeur francais aurait prononcé le latin de cette façon. ag-nus serait du latin allemand, comme on prononcerait dans du Bach (ou "in extselsis" par exemple). Tout ca pour dire qu'il y a mille et une facons de prononcer le latin, et ca reste également un choix de l'interprète.

[AlainNaigeon]

@tenor9216 Exact, pourtant c'est tellement étrange pour nos oreilles que cela attire notre attention et masque un peu le naturel de notre écoute. J'ai constaté cela même parmi un public habitué au baroque (dans cette période plus récente c'est indubitablement historique) et personnellement je n'arrive pas à m'y faire.

[AlainNaigeon]

@AB101CFE C'est ainsi que je l'ai appris également ; je ne dis pas que c'est la vérité, mais que cette prononciation très différente m'est insupportable, elle me fait presque rire par moments.

[singer1924]

@AB101CFE Machaut ne faisait pas, a ma connaissance, partie de la Fraternite St Pie X. En tout etat de cause je doute que St Pie V ou St Pie X ou un pape quelconque ait frappe d'anatheme les prononciations regionales a titre retroactif :-)

[singer1924]

@singer1924 ...et j'ajoute que la 3eme republique de France a reintroduit (au nom de la laicite!) la prononciation gallicane authentique du latin utilisee a l'eglise en France jusqu'au 18eme siecle, et que la prononciation dite "restituee" (proche de la prononciation ultramontaine) pleine de "ou" n'a ete introduite qu'au debut des annees 1960.

[dmouter]

Have you heard about let it be or let it go.

so the annoyance is not you,me or she.

This left us to think that the annoyance is the mind .but again this monkey mind is the potential

to an awakening.

the music is enchanting.

Thank you.

[starbreez3]

Better think that my senses are probably much higher than yours, and that I contemplate everything I listen to, also, once I've heard a much better version of this, I can find the pronounce pretty annoying and incorrect, even if Machaut was french and the singers are also.

And btw, you made me a question at the beginning, I'll also make you one, have you heard about let it be or let it go also?

[starbreez3]

The music is enchanting, indeed.

[deadxkorps]

@starbreez3 Latin is a dead language. It is pronounced according to the pronunciation of the native language of the speakers. This is a commonly accepted norm.

[AlainNaigeon]

@deadxkorps No no, it might be historic (I don't really know), but though being French I wasn't taught to pronounce Latin like that.

I think being exact and being faithful are two different things. When something like that sounds so strange, nearly exotic, we focus on this and miss a part of our attention for the music itself.

[AlainNaigeon]

@deadxkorps But Latin was *not* at all a dead language in theses times, any educated person had to learn it !

[deadxkorps]

@AlainNaigeon A dead language means that its native people don't speak it anymore. In any case, I don't know what you're talking about when you say "in these times" - this song was obviously recorded in the last century, so not in "these times".

[AlainNaigeon]

@deadxkorps Machaut was dead in 1377, not in the last century ;-)

[markt2429]

@starbreez3 The piece is written in medieval French. Because it's an earlier form of French, there is still a lot of Latin influence, but the pronunciation of u's etc. in this performance are most likely how the piece was performed originally

[singer1924]

@starbreez3 No, they are right and pronounce it as Gallican Latin. By the way, 'theirselfs' is not English. Are you French too?

[starbreez3]

@singer1924 No I'm not French, I'm portuguese, and yes I'm someone who makes mistakes, I'm sure you make them aswell.

But I stand corrected (:, nowadays listening to this, it sounds much better than before.

[crispinswank]

@starbreez3

In Guillaume's time there was a mixing of strict latin and regional infusion. France was no exception; the culture of northern France infused itself into the liturgy and thus into the music of Guillaume de Machaut. This is probably more like what someone in 14th century Paris would have heard in the cathedral.

[starbreez3]

@crispinswank Thanks alot for the enlightment, I wish I could hide that comment somehow, I was rude and ignorant by saying it ruined it.

Now that I listen to it, I give it another 'look', let's say, and it sounds really, really nice.

[PineappleMusicTV]

Very unusual and powerful performance. Other old music ensembles sound a lot more "angelic", so I wonder what should be considered authentic?

[mgalangzingme12]

You won't get answer now, because it's a lot to discover in this matter. Maybe next years will bring some clearer proofs, but nowadays it's a big mess:)

[PineappleMusicTV]

Thx for the response. I like to listen to this version, as it is exciting, so the question of authenticity is really hypothetical. However, what I believe would make everything even better, would be greater detachment of individual notes, esp. in the final section. This would not only add up to the "archaic" sound, but also make the polyphony clearer. It is sometimes easy to get lost in so narrow range with 4 voices, many overlappings etc.

[jpmessier11]

@PineappleMusicTV to be honest this style is called Motet - the addition of voice ranges to what was the norm then called Chant. Chant was many voices "chanting" in a single melody line that was sung in unison. Also called Monphony. However, Motet used several melody lines sung by different voices with two lines of lyrics.  A better explanation of Motet and Chant music can be found in Wikipedia.

It is very dark and powerful. I wonder what the words are.

[SlyFox616]

Oh wow, I've never heard anything like this before.

[divustitus]

Ensemble Organum does a splendid "Cistercian chant" rendition...

[ravichandra70]

BTW. Thanks mgalangzingme12 for posting this! Any chance of you posting more of this version of this Mass? All the best. RCM

[lljdma06]

I have both the Ensemble Organum and the Hilliard Ensemble recordings of this great mass. I happen to like both, as different as they are. Ensemble Organum 3:53 into this movement starts some serous musical yumminess for me. :) But I love the "Amen" section in the Hilliard's Gloria because the "hocket" really comes through because it's at a faster tempo. Just my two cents.

[ravichandra70]

Intense! I'd agree with noncervantes. Machaut was far removed musically from what we are used to. This is one of the most plausible renderings of this I've ever heard. Remember much of the music at the time likely retained characteristics we'd think of as Byzantine or Eastern Orthodox rather than "Moorish". Also Arab and Greek music theory were reaching Western European due to the crusades during this period. Early musicians are still uncovering much about the past!

[VincHepp]

Anyway we are probably much more careful about how this music should be performed than medieval people, who just wanted to express there mystical needs ; in this point of view this is a absolutely stunning recording.

[musicalidea]

This is some souled-up, desert sands Machaut. Wicked!

[Forcroi]

I was surprised as well to hear this kind of performance...I´m not sure,but their reason for such might have been the fact,that a copy of Messe de Notre Dame was found on spanish soil. And since spanish had their music performance heavily influenced by the cultural presence of moslims,the melismatic rendition of this music would be justified.But the "If" is a big one:)

[connectwired]

Yeah, older Western singing sounded more middle eastern than the styles associated with later periods.

[anushca100]

this is a parody, right? please tell me that is just a parody and those people aren't serious!

[PadreAcaJoca]

Well, I have this CD and yes, it is a very uncommon performance, but I like it and it is one of my favorites. And what is the most important thing it has a historical background. I have almost all CD's from this ensemble and they are one of my favorites!

[Kazuyasan9999]

@PadreAcaJoca

Could you tell me about it's historical background? I'm surprised that it has some eastern influence in it, especially at that time.

[VitaReduXX]

@Kazuyasan9999 I think middle eastern culture has always had some influence in western culture and vice versa. the ties are closer then what most people want to believe..

[VelikyRostov9]

@VitaReduXX Good point.  We have always been multi-cultural in spite of our desire to be something 'pure'.

But, it's only natural for each group to want to see itself as something apart- as each person has this tendency too.

[bl4st3r]

@PadreAcaJoca Are you talking about the old chants as Mozarabic because of the microtones and everything?

Excellent song!

[LUCASFR0]

Why it would be?

[anushca100]

I was kidding. It doesn't sound right for that era and that composer.

[noncervantes]

Check out Joculatores Uppsaliensis' rendering of Enzina's "Todos los bienes del mundo" on youtube; it's even better than this (different epoch, though). I think it's great that some ensembles remind us that people from the times of Dante and the Great Plague were not acquainted with Pavarotti or Hilliard. Moreover, this music is more about (cathedral) mathematics than anything else. There must have been many different ways of performing those scores, including muslim (moorish) chant.

[noncervantes]

However, I think they're moving away too far from the score itself. There is a lot of contemporary evidence as to how the notes were supposed to be sung. The rules for the execution of written music are well documented and have been almost exhaustively explored. Pronunciations were different depending on the region. There were no fixed dynamics, neither was there any notion of modern belcanto. Sacred music was often "riservata", i.e. for selected audience only.

[IronyJoe]

Okay. One question, though: do you find the performance enjoyable (apart from the cognitive dissonance that hearing it performed "improperly" may cause you)?

[noncervantes]

Honestly speaking no. Neither do I find it performed improperly. I just said that, to my estimation, they have detached themselves too much from the score (whose transcription I read while listening). I am certain that performances like this have taken place in the past, and I am glad that people do it this way. For me the most interesting thing about this music is its rhythmic complexity which appears greatly dispersed due to the extreme melismatic slurs.

Greetings.

[PaleoThomist]

Very interesting. You are not the first person I heard assert this. In this album, Ensemble Organum puts this Mass in a certain level of context by chanting the Propers for the Purification. What do you think of their interpretation of the Frankish Gregorian chant especially as compared to the Solemnes' interpretation?

[noncervantes]

I should add that I highly recommend "Crucem sanctam subiit (Chant des Templiers) here on Youtube. There is no score available I believe but it a very "clean" and also rather special rendering of one of the earliest examples of primitive polyphony.