1) Romans 9 isn't the only chapter that deals with God's divine election.
2) The inferences that you draw from the Greek word for prepared/fitted (katErtismena) more accurately means to complete thoroughly... you know like in Romans 1 when it talks about God handing them over to a reprobate mind.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and deserve damnation for their sins... God doesn't even have to predestine people to Hell because without His Grace we would all go happily.
Why would God in Calvinism have to give people over to a reprobate mind? Are you a semipelagian? If God had to give them over then were they not born wicked enough to be reprobate at birth? The comment presupposes that they were not reprobate enough at birth. This is not Calvinistic foreknowledge. Are you sure you are not Arminian?
Type this on G bar: i p e r t i s a l i t h i a s . g r / p a g e 5 . (with spaces in between, as it is) and then click on the 1st one on top of the page, then read in english: How not to fall into Calvinism's deception.
Type this on G bar: i p e r t i s a l i t h i a s . g r / p a g e 5 . (with spaces in between, as it is) and then click on the 1st one on top of the page, then read in english: How not to fall into Calvinism's deception.
god is not real! The sooner you realize it the sooner we can all get along and stop fighting over our imaginary friends that don't give a shit about us one way or another.
soteriology is the context of Romans 9 for the simple reason of 9:3. 9:6 and following is then Paul's exposition of why the Jews, who are God's people, have rejected Jesus and therefore have rejected salvation. in his description he introduces Jacob and Esau all within this soteriological context. there isn't something else other than soteriology going on in Romans 9.
equal ultimacy is wrong and is not found in Romans 9 for the simple reason that God is not the author of evil and tempts no one to evil. from the moment a person performs the first sin they become "fitted for destruction". do you believe in original sin as taught in Romans 5:12 & 5:18 ? if so, then you must realise that our sinful nature works "by fatal necessity" to sin and we are slaves to sin as Romans 6:17 & 18 teaches unless of course God sets us free which He did & does in and by Christ.
No equal ultimacy in Romans 9? Did you not watch my video? There is nothing in Romans 9 about thier sin is why God sends peole to hell, but God in Calvinism according to Romans 9 sends peolle to hell before they did good or bad (evil) vs 11.. Tell me from Romans 9 how God sends people to hell for thier sin? It says God fittend man for destruction the same way that he makes men for salvation. So God in Calvinism reprobates unconditionally if He saves unconditionally.
@GBFNorwalk You are setting up a straw man to say there is double predestination because that is only for believers. Proorizo (pro-before orizo-to bound inside the border the or Israel the Kingdom of light, or predetermine for light) ... hence predestination can't be used in reprobation or condemnation by definition. Now define what it is to double foreordain and try to make your argument. Not to mention who cares about Calvinism. The words you read from the bible are quite clear. cont...
There is no double predestination in Romans 9? Who are you to question God who siad in Romans 9 when viewed Calvinisticaly that God fitted men for destruction and made vessels for dishonor. If God in Calvinism unconditionally and irresistably made vessels for honor He must have analagously made the vessels for dishonor the same way. They are from the same lump, the same clay and the same word make for both types of vessels.
@GBFNorwalk Forget Calvinistically, how about we talk biblically. There can be no such thing as "double predestination" by definition which I pointed out. If you want to talk about double ordination surely God chooses who will be saved and does choose who will be vessels of wrath (It's in his plan). Paul, Moses, John, etc.. did not mix words. Unless you call it aPredestination which is never used in the Bible. GOD devises all of our steps and fates. This can only be a comfort to believers.
@GBFNorwalk : your problem is not with Calvinism it is with God and with His Word in Romans 9 : 20 "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?""
@GBFNorwalk cont... How can u read Romans 9 and say that GOD doesn't elect unconditionally? Call it whatever, but Paul already answered your question b/c he knew scoffers wouldn't get it. The objection has been answered in Romans 9:14-24. Are you questioning GOD? Just like Paul said Who are you O man to answer back to GOD. Becuase you/us don't understand GOD's plan fully isn't because GOD isn't just, fair, right, etc.. It is a limitation on us. Paul gave the answer, but you do not hear it, why?
@GBFNorwalk You my friend do not understand human depravity with questions like this.
Rom 10-11 ..None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God
v 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (notice all!!!!!)
You can deceive yourself, but GOD knows your nature before you are born. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners! We sinned in ADAM and deserve his punishment (imputed sin). This is fundamental Christianity..
@GBFNorwalk : "There is nothing in Romans 9 about thier sin is why God sends peole to hell"----> that's because you haven't been paying attention. back in Romans 5 Paul already made the case that every person that is born into the human race is born a sinner so already deserves to go to Hell.
@GBFNorwalk Steve your problem is,is that you hate the God of the Bible so you have decided for yourself that you would create a politically correct god to worship.You have created a god that you like better,one that man has control over,one that man can merit his salvation with and one that man can demand salvation from and then He must obey every man that says a prayer demanding HIS SALVATION.The Bible tells us that Salvation in not by man's will,but God's will.The Bible knows not your god.
Your problem is that you have made God someone whom you blame for your sin and evil as God in Calvinism has caused all evil apart from your own control. And you are a Universalist as God is the universal cause of all that occurs in Calvinism even your evil. How convenient. You are only sorry that God has caused all of the sorry and evil things in your life. You are logically only sorry for the sorry things you believe God has caused for you.
@Tubewatcher52 : God is not the author of evil in the sense that he tempts no one to perform evil or sin (James 1 :13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."). Isaiah 45, Amos 3 and Micah 1 talk about God sending judgement --- Isaiah 45: 8 (the very next verse proves God does not practice evil "Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open,(cont)
@celal777 (cont fm previous post) "that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the LORD have created it"
@celal777 I agree most people like Isa 45:8, but want to ignore v7. I am saying he is soverign author of all things. While he does not tempt anyone he is the author of it. If it exists, he made it as he is author of not some things, but all things for his good pleasure.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I just think people focus on 20th century love and forget that GOD is jealous for his people and uses ALL things... Rom 8:28
@Tubewatcher52 (Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself...)
In the verse that you quoted, what does the word "made" from the original Hebrew word mean to you? I see the Hebrew word used 19 times for the word "work", 19 times for the word "workers", and 10 times for the word "do" more often than any other uses in scripture. It is even used once for the word "ordaineth". Never is it used for the word "create". Is your use for it based on the English dictionary? I'm just curious.
paal is a poetic synonym to asah - accomplish, do, make, appoint. Basically to do or make. I try not to put a 20th century spin on words, but I am fallible. I believe the word choice is very dependent on your translation. Baiscally, the LORD works and wills of his good pleasure. What the LORD wills the LORD does and his counsel shall stand. He ordains all things and accomplishes all things he wills. He Makes, Ordains, Works , and Does of ALL things.
@Tubewatcher52 (He Makes, Ordains, Works , and Does of ALL things.)
Can you show me a scripture that reads in that manner? I see each of these words, in their Hebrew forms and definitions, utilized in scripture but never all together. In Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah clearly uses different words for a purpose. Now if we connect Isaiah 45:7 to something like Romans 7:13, it makes it easy to understand why Isaiah would have utilized the different words...with the one, the appearance of the other changed.
@AllForYeshua In all fairness my Greek is better than my Hebrew, but linguistically is wasn't uncommon for writers to use differnent forms to mean essentially the same thing. This is why Strong's and the like will reference words that poetic form of ... If you want a big example refer to the shade of petra, petros, lithos. As time went on distinction was lost in the language. This could greatly change the meaning of Matthew 16:18. If you are a Hebrew scholar please help me on these shades.
@Tubewatcher52 (...to use differnent forms to mean essentially the same thing.)
One thing I know about scripture is that it's the literal WOG, not the word of the Hebrews. The Hebrew scribes were so specific in maintaining it as given by the Lord that they would throw away entire scrolls for one error & begin again. To compare it to writings by mere men, I can't. The words that God chose were very specific to their definition just as when He changed Abram's name to Abraham or Jacob to Israel.
@AllForYeshua What I meant was a specific poetic license at the time of writing. All scripture is God Breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, etc. but that is not to say all scripture is literal. GOD is the ultimate author, but for instance JESUS used parables alot. These are not literal per se. Nor are the Psalms to be read like the Gospels as they are to not from. Scripture is all literally from GOD, but all scripture is not necessarily literal. Don't forget Revelation
@Tubewatcher52 (GOD is the ultimate author, but for instance JESUS used parables alot. These are not literal per se.)
They are undoubtably the exact words that God wanted spoken before the people. What you seem to miss is that Jesus is the Word become flesh & that Word includes Isaiah 45:7. Without adding or taking away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, true interpretation of any scripture must begin & end in view of the life, walk, death, & resurrection of Christ Jesus.
@AllForYeshua Undoubtedly, but when do you always use the same word over and over in sentences. Most people use synonyms to sound less redundant. I am being honest here when I say, please give me the shades of the words chosen in Isaiah 45:7. To work and to do are redundant. It is beyond my (man's) comprehension of what true Love and Evil are. One day I hope he shows me, but for now we are all guilty of his wrath and are only here because of his grace and mercy. To him be the Glory!
As we clearly see by Hebrew definition, they're different words. The scholars who translated those words in English weren't trying to be poetic. They were translating, utilizing the closest English words possible to the Hebrew word, but even then perfect translation from the ancient Hebrew to English is difficult.
If I tell you that I am going to work the evil to my good, it is far different than saying, I'm going to do the evil to my own good.
@Tubewatcher52 You quoted: Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
What is the difference between the words form, create, and make according to their Hebrew origins? And what does the word "do" mean based on it's Hebrew origin?
@Tubewatcher52 (AMOS 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?)
In Gesenius's Lexicon the word "done" means to labour or to work about anything. You were not interp. this scripture to mean God as the author of or creator of evil were you? We already know that while the people were in great sin, God would allow evil to come upon them. Sin sown has never reaped peace since the days of Adam & Eve.
@AllForYeshua This is really tough because what comes to pass that is not ordained by the all mighty GOD? Are we to believe that Satan's work is outside of GOD's counsel. He is permitted to work and where there is evil the LORD has "allowed" or better yet ordained it (see the Cross). People forget that GOD rules ALL including Hell as without his permissive will there would be no such evil. We might see evil, but GOD can use it for good Genesis 50:20
@Tubewatcher52 (...where there is evil the LORD has "allowed" or better yet ordained it.)
Allowing it to accomplish His will & authoring it are two entirely different things. All we need do is to go back to Gen 1 & see that the first words spoken by God were not "Let there be darkness" but "Let there be Light". This is Is 9:2 & Mat 4:16. Jesus didn't author the darkness that was there, but exposed it for what it was, Rom 7:13.
1 John 1:5 ...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
@AllForYeshua So GOD didn't create everything? Things existed before GOD? GOD wasn't around before the creation of everything? Things were created outside the will of GOD?
My Bible reads a little different [1:1] In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. [2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
@Tubewatcher52 (The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep.)
Where does the scripture say that God created the "without form & void"? My Bible says that the earth "was" without form & void. It also tells me that the first day was this: 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Did God take the "without form & void" to create the earth or did He create the without "form & void"?
@Tubewatcher52 (Who or what preexisted the almighty GOD. Nothing!)
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...
There's a place outside of God's Kingdom. "Without form & void" & is that place outside of the presence of God. The Hebrew word "moved" means to affect, with the feeling of tender love and is also used for the word "fluttereth" in Deut 32:11 & "shake" in Jer 23:9. That's what God did in Gen 1:2, moved.
@Tubewatcher52 (I apologize, but I don't get the moved reference. Gen 1:2)
Look up the definition of that word in both the Strong's and the Gesenius's Lexicon.
In light of Jesus being that word, Jesus didn't make the darkness. Jesus brought light to it through His love and compassion for those who did not know God.
@AllForYeshua Jesus did bring truth and light, but was he not the second Adam.? Who was brought before Jesus to show us how wretched we all are? I am not trying to define GOD here, I am merely stating that GOD's ordained plan has a purpose. We are short sided and only see what we were are given, but I feel pretty comfortable that like he tells us GOD is the bookends of the whole plan. He is the beginning and the end (nothing premempts GOD NOTHING). Before anything GOD existed Gen 1:1
@Tubewatcher52 (Who was brought before Jesus to show us how wretched we all are?)
Again, John 1 tells us that Jesus is the Word become flesh. Did not that word come before the birth of Jesus in the flesh? Again, we have a view of Rom 7...to show us how wretched we all are, or dead spiritually, better stated. Can we yet turn and repent when we hear the word of God? Yes. A mustard seed of faith can do great things, but it's not there until we hear the word of God. That is a gift from God.
@AllForYeshua The point you're missing is that no we can't turn and repent when we hear the word of God unless we "HEAR" it. Christ said unless you be born again you can't even see the kingdom of God. Paul said that none do righteous, all have gone out of the way, no man seeks after God.
It's only when the Word is preached in power and the Holy Spirit quickens us to life that we can hear the Word and be granted the gifts of repentance and faith.
@EverydayRevival (It's only when the Word is preached in power and the Holy Spirit quickens us to life that we can hear the Word)
That contradicts much of scripture such as Psalm 119:50 or Acts 2 where the people heard the word, even those who refused to repent, but the quicking which is through the receiving of the HS didn't happen until the people had repented.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,...
@AllForYeshua First of all in Psalm 119:50 David isn't talking about being born again by the spirit (which is what the "quickened to life" we were talking about means). And in Acts 2 the it says the people were "cut to the heart" and asked Peter "What shall we do?" and Peter says "repent and be baptized... and you'll receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit" Peter is talking about the baptism of Holy Spirit (enduing with power of on high). They were convicted of their sin against Jesus.
@EverydayRevival (Psalm 119:50 David isn't talking about being born again by the spirit...)
That's my point. David is talking the power of the WOG simply by the hearing of that word & even without being quickened via the HS first.
(They were convicted of their sin against Jesus.)
Every man's sins are against Jesus & part of the cup of wrath that He drank, & the crown of thorns that He wore upon His head. It's a Rom 7 thing. That's what the preaching of the WOG does.
@AllForYeshua and we all know who's job it is to convict people of their sin don't we... the Holy Spirit. When the Word is preached it's the Holy Spirit that makes men spiritually alive so that they can "HEAR" and changes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh to receive Christ and the Word. Christ told the Pharisees that they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep, and another time that they didn't believe because His word had no place in them (their heart of stone).
@EverydayRevival (When the Word is preached it's the Holy Spirit that makes men spiritually alive so that they can "HEAR" and changes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh to receive Christ and the Word.)
One is never spiritually alive until they hear, receive, & repent at the preaching of the WOG. It's then & only then that one receives the HS that changes their heart of stone to a heart of flesh, Ez 18:31 and Acts 2, among the many places. Receiving Christ is receiving the HS.
@AllForYeshua One cannot hear unless he is made spiritually alive first. Dead men can't "hear" the Gospel and they certainly can't change their own hearts without the Holy Spirit bringing them to life first. Christ said that unless you be born-again (or born from above) that you couldn't enter the Kingdom of God... the Kingdom of God is the family of God... it's eternal life, which one has when they believe. You have to be born again to believe, that's what Christ taught Nicodemus.
@AllForYeshua 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh *(John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes (where He wants to), and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jo 3:6-8
*In Greek the word for wind is the word for Spirit also.
@EverydayRevival Yes. One can't be born again without receiving the HS, but one still must repent first. Are you lacking faith in the power of the WOG to open the ears of mankind, leading them to repentance & to the seeking of the Lord?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@EverydayRevival (When the Word is preached it's the Holy Spirit that makes men spiritually alive so that they can "HEAR" and changes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh to receive Christ and the Word. )
One is not spiritually alive without the HS, but that comes after repentance.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
@AllForYeshua Your error here is thinking that regeneration is the same thing as the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" Peter was talking to the men gathered outside the upper room when the Spirit fell at Pentecost. Those men stopped and made fun of the disciples speaking in tongues, so Peter gave his sermon and explained how they too could have this Gift that they had initially been sneering at and making jokes about.
Regeneration comes before faith and repentance. Read John chapter 3.
@EverydayRevival (Regeneration comes before faith and repentance)
John 3:5-6Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Regeneration is to be born again via the HS, but just as we see with all the saints in the OT, none had received the HS until Jesus arose(Mat 27:51-53), yet they had great faith in His word.
@EverydayRevival (Your error here is thinking that regeneration is the same thing as the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" Peter was talking to the men gathered outside the upper room when the Spirit fell at Pentecost.)
What happened in the upper room was not about the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those men had already received the HS on the day that Christ arose from the grave fifty days previous, John 20:19-22. However, first they heard the Gospel preached & had faith in Jesus.
@AllForYeshua Read Ezekiel 37 the valley of dry bones and 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. (Eze 37:5 ESV) Jesus doesn't ask anyone to follow Him or believe in Him ever (not once). He commands it just like Lazarus who was physically dead (and sinners that are spiritually dead in sin and trespasses) Christ commanded "Come out" and the Spirit made him alive so he could obey the command.
@EverydayRevival (He commands it just like Lazarus who was physically dead (and sinners that are spiritually dead in sin and trespasses) Christ commanded "Come out" and the Spirit made him alive so he could obey the command.)
I believe that Adam & Eve were not spiritually dead until they disobeyed the command. Lazarus, on the other hand, was first a friend of the Lord's, believing in Him, then he heard the command, then he arose. You missed a few steps. Faith in Jesus came first, then life.
@AllForYeshua First off (1-10) this parable continues the theme from the last chapter that the heirs of the kingdom rejected it, and it's been offered to others and God's servants have to offer the gospel to all people(9). The second part (11-14) affirms that invitation to the kingdom doesn't guarantee inclusion; one must be properly clothed. Everyone that hears is invited; many may claim to be in the kingdom but only those clothed with Christ righteousness are actually presentable to God.
@AllForYeshua This parable actually ends with, For many are called BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN. What do you think that means? It means that no one came because they heard the invitation, but because they were chosen.
Physically hearing the invitation isn't what we were talking about anyway. Many people hear the Gospel (physically with their ears) and never repent and believe it, but you and I have, so what's the difference between those that reject and those that do repent and believe?
@EverydayRevival (Physically hearing the invitation isn't what we were talking about anyway. Many people hear the Gospel (physically with their ears) and never repent and believe it, but you and I have, so what's the difference between those that reject and those that do repent and believe?)
Mark 4:14-22 And this reveals to us what happened to those called by the Lord in Matt 22. This is the same thing that happened to the rich man, he "chose" to keep his riches over the invitation.
@AllForYeshua Only the seed sown in the good soil can accept it and bear fruit, and the good soil is a good and honest heart, which we all know the heart of the natural man is evil continually and that...
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." <--1Co 2:14
@EverydayRevival (Only the seed sown in the good soil can accept it and bear fruit, and the good soil is a good and honest heart, which we all know the heart of the natural man is evil continually and that...)
That's right. However, as Paul shows us in Rom 7, it doesn't take a HS filled man to see his sin & need for a Messiah. The entire OT shows us that. It's by the WOG that one begins to know that they are a sinner in need of a Savour. It via the preaching of the Gospel that one finds hope.
No where in scripture do you see that soil good enough to receive the word of God equates to a good heart. As Jesus said, "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God..." This is the soil that is able to receive the WOG: Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
It's this man who is able to receive the Gospel. Hope produces faith.
@AllForYeshua Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15 KJV)
Hope doesn't produce faith; hope is part of faith - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 ESV). Faith is a gift from God, that's what Jesus is preaching about in the Parable of the Soils... that only those who have been given a heart to believe can holdfast.
@EverydayRevival (...that's what Jesus is preaching about in the Parable of the Soils... that only those who have been given a heart to believe can holdfast.)
That would be a good answer if the Bible was a math book & 1+1 always equated to 2, but it isn't. Every faithful person in scripture has fallen under each of those areas where the seed is planted as noted in Mark 4. Abraham is a very good example, & we see the same in many of the churches noted in the NT. Faith is a growth process.
@EverydayRevival (Hope doesn't produce faith; hope is part of faith - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.)
Faith arises from hope undoubtably. You speak as one who has faith in every ounce of scripture at all times in your life, but most of us know that any faith is a growth process that comes from the hope that we find in the WOG. Most of us know that faith arises, at times, through great tribulation & learning processes to be perfected in us.
@AllForYeshua My point was only that hope doesn't precede faith. No measure of "hope" can ever "arise" in the sinner to the point of causing faith. Faith is a gift from God, and our hope in God and His promises comes from faith, not the other way around. Your faith is increased by God through blessing and mercy just as much as through tribulation and suffering.
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Phi 2:13 ESV)
@EverydayRevival (My point was only that hope doesn't precede faith.)
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hope is defined as "expectation" while faith, the substance of that hope is defined as "assurance or confidence" in that which is hoped for. Hope in the preached Gospel precedes faith. If you don't have hope that God desires that none should perish, that He is the unchangable God of love, then your preaching is void of faith.
I realize how easy it is to get caught up in theology & to forget reality, but that is why Jesus said "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." When I was young, I prayed with much hope in the WOG, but little to no faith. Today, I pray at times with nothing but hope, but much more often with faith in His word then when I was young because I have grown in my faith. Every Christian that I know has experienced the same. Perhaps you are unique.
@EverydayRevival (This parable actually ends with, For many are called BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN. What do you think that means? It means that no one came because they heard the invitation, but because they were chosen.)
You negate the very scriptures that show you a people who chose not to come because they prefered the things of this world. If you fell in love with some one & asked them to marry you but they rejected your request, you wouldn't chose to marry them. Did you desire their rejection?
1 John 1:5 ...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
In addition to the last comment that I posted, it is impossible for light to author darkness. When light is turned on in a dark room, then we can see what is in that room, but it's not because those things were not already present. With light, the things in the room are exposed & seen for what they are. This again explains Rom 7 & Is 45:7. Like Adam & Eve, God's voice led them out of the shadows, exposing their already present sin.
@AllForYeshua Trying to figure this out using out feeble minds is dangerous. Ask youself these questions. Who created Adam & Eve? Was Adam's fall eminent? Would JESUS be necessary if Adam (man) didn't fall? Was the Cross an afterthought or planned from the foundation of the world? Are we to understand GOD's motives or to submit? See I am not pretending to know his ways as his ways are higher than mine. I am telling you that he has a plan and he hasn't given us all the details.
@Tubewatcher52 (Who created Adam & Eve? Was Adam's fall eminent? Would JESUS be necessary if Adam (man) didn't fall)
If God had not commanded Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge, would it have still been sin? Again, we get into Romans 7 to see the purposed end result of God's command. He gave the command before the sin because He obviously knew they would eat from that tree. Did God cause them to eat from that tree? Did He command the serpent to tempt them? No
@Tubewatcher52 (Are we to understand ...?) Both. If we preach the good news to those who are otherwise dying without Jesus, it's an act void of faith when we aren't sure if He really desires all the people we're speaking to, to be saved, yet the scripture says that He desires none to perish. We were all once vessels of wrath & only after repentance through the revealing of our sins, Rom 7, vessels of mercy, Rom 9, as it's preordained by the word for those who repent to receive mercy, Ez 18.
@AllForYeshua But only those who have a faith (from a regenerative heart) will repent. Faith is the gift of GOD by which we are only saved by GOD's grace. Acceptance comes after GOD's regenerative work not before. So the believing ones are the elect not any old dead man who decides to repent on his own. We preach to all b/c we have no idea who the elect are. GOD knew before the foundation of the world and none of the elect will perish as none will be snatched from the Father(John 10)
@Tubewatcher52 (But only those who have a faith (from a regenerative heart) will repent.)
That's right. In light of Rom 7, that is why we preach the word of God in it's totality. Faith cometh by hearing the WOG(Rom 10:17). Just as God gave the command not to eat from the tree of knowledge to Adam & Eve, He gave it as a gift that would ultimately cause them to see their sin for what it was, but His voice heard while hiding in the shadows is that "good news" the Gospel, that draws them back.
@Tubewatcher52 (So the believing ones are the elect not any old dead man who decides to repent on his own.)
Not one single person in scripture ever repented without hearing God's word, either written or audible. Why do you think that Satan works so hard to keep God's word out of places like Iran & now the western world? His word is life.
(We preach to all b/c we have no idea who the elect are.)
There are no elect until they hear the word & then repent. Then & only then are they the elect.
@AllForYeshua I think you are putting the cart before the horse. [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—[12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
@Tubewatcher52 (A dead man cannot grab a life preserver.)
That is like saying that Lazarus could not be brought back to life because he was already dead but when He heard the voice of Jesus, the Gospel that we are to preach to the lost, he arose. Until we leave this earth, no one's soul is eternally dead yet. Thus while one lives and breaths, they still have the ability to grab that life preserver. The physical life that we all have is from the very breath of God.
@Tubewatcher52 ([12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”)
Of course. That is about those of the Law verses those of faith. And in response to "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad", well of course. That's about the Law verse those of faith.
Abraham's promise was to be the father of all nations, but we know that that was by faith, not the Law. They had yet to be born, nor to have done good or bad, but God promised it through that One Seed, Jesus.
@Tubewatcher52 (GOD knew before the foundation of the world and none of the elect will perish as none will be snatched from the Father(John 10))
Of Course. God can't save those who refuse to repent. It's like throwing a life preserver to a drowning person. If that person grabs it, we know they will live, but if they don't grab it, we know that they will die. That's a given. God's word is that life preserver. If we drown, it is not at Gods hand nor because He didn't want & tell us to grab it.
@Tubewatcher52 (We preach to all b/c we have no idea who the elect are.)
No. We preach because we too desire that none should perish & because we know by faith that there are no elect until a person repents. It's by repentance that one becomes the elect & they choose to do so by the gift of the hearing of the word of God. Man is void of faith without the hearing of the WOG. It's the WOG that gives hope & faith is the substance of things hoped for. Josiah reveals that truth to us.
@Tubewatcher52 (Trying to figure this out using out feeble minds is dangerous.)
That's right. That's we simply believe what is written, understanding that Jesus is the word become flesh( John 1:1 & 1:14) and, "For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one (1 John 5:7)." In light of that, if we can't see Jesus' walk on this earth as a man when we read verses such as Isaiah 45:7 and Rom 9, our interpretation is in error.
@AllForYeshua It is ironic you quote the Comma Johanneum. While I believe in the Trinity, you do realize that part of John 5:7-8 is from the TR which didn't have some of the older manuscripts. This is probably from scribal error, but is quite ironic in the context. Besides, anyone can have the bible memorized and not discern or accept the things of the spirit (1 cor 2:14) and he is still lost.
@celal777 cont..Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Isa 13:9, 11-18 women shall be raped, GOD will kill babies
Check out the incredible hypocrycy of 66boeken saying I have a heart of stone. (means not Christian). If I were to say I do witness to Muslims (which I do) 66boeken would say I am Pharisee losing rewards. Whatever.
@GBFNorwalk So this is what you do, you make remarks about 66boeken, the Dutch girl and she is incapable of answering you back...why??Because you blocked her. This is how you manage your channel? You should be ashamed! How is she able to defend herself.
Ah, another anonymous youtube Calvinist. Is you hiding behind an anonymous sock account honorable?
I should be ashamed? At least I show my face.
So it is dishonorable that I elect to block people for my own pleasure? Why?
I actually am sorry that the conversation went down as it did. She has no respect. But, no I am not ashamed to break fellowship with such hypocrisy and lies.
@GBFNorwalk You truly believe we do not give our names on YT is because of Calvinism?
You blocked 66boek because you had no answers to her comments and you were sneaky about it, even asking questions,knowing full well you blocked her.She couldn't answer!She said she is not a Calvinist,I am not a Calvinist,but even if both of us were,is that evil?
66Boek had some excellnt points.Early revivalists being Calvinists.Also one of the finest professors today is Dr.Sproul.Read his stuff,it's amazing
There is nothing sneaky about blocking someone. She said I read (anti Christ) (not Christian) material when she came on my video saying we should all get along. (hypocricy) When I told her I did many things other than this to serve God with my time. She said I was Pharasitical (not Christian). She said I call Calvinsts heratics.(lie)
So what good points did she make that you think I cannot answer? I thought you werent Calvinist? I have read Sproul, Calvin, whoever you will bring up.
@GBFNorwalk I don't know man. I wish I had never ended up here.So negative.
You know this stuff a lot better than I. It seem this is all you study.
I believe in repentance, I mean Godly sorrow. I believe in salvation by God's Holy Grace Through Faith.What must we do, the people shouted! Peter said: Repent and believe the Gospel.Jesus said the same.I also believe God knows all who are saved.I also know Jesus gave us two laws: Love God-Love People. If this is Calvinism, I am one.
@GBFNorwalk If you were so open about blocking her, why then did you continue to ask her questions and make remarks about her when she could not defend your comments. You call that honest. Why did you not say something about having blocked her? Because you did not want anyone to know.The only reason you are even talking about this,is because I stood up for her and knew what you did.
I venture to say that you have blocked many on this series.Makes you look good.Just wipe out the opposition.
Now you say you are a Calvinist. Well God in Calvinism blocks people from heaven that can do nothing to defend themselves, for no other reason than it brings Himself pleasure. If you have a problem with me blocking people because they are hypocrites and liars, then you certainly must have a problem with the god of Calvinism. I have been blocked by many Calvinists. Are they dishonarable like your Calvinist god is if you have a problem with what I did by blocking your friend?
@GBFNorwalk I am a hypocrite, 66boek is a hypocrite. You call so many on your series "hypocrite". It's almost as if you are married to that name. Usually, someone who calls others hypocrites so often, just might be one himself. Some counseling might be in order.
Good luck with your anti-Calvinism Channel and keep studying where those nasty people are wrong and...............Goodbye!
So you call me a Muslim because I am soverign over my videos. Well the God of Calvinism blocks people for His pleasure never giving them opportunity for salvation. Thank you for the comaparison of Muslim soverignty is the same as the soverignty of the Calvinist God. Your comments are hypocritical. I have nothing to hide like all of you anonomos Calvinists who have sock accounts so no one can see you. I did not continue to ask her questions. Dont lie. I said notice her hypocrysy.
Some of the greatest revivals have been by Calvinists, through the Sovereignty of God committed to the doctrine of faith.Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, Spurgeon,these were the founders of America.More recently, RC Sproul, one of the smartest professors of Christianity, then a powerhouse of a preacher today, Paul Washer.By the way I am just a Christian saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.Just a generic one, not a convoluted complex one you teach here.
I have no idea what in the world you are talking about. We are saved by grace through faith. Do you think Christianity has to be complex as you make it.Instead of looking at our similarities and come together, you spend all these videos on one thing. Anti Calvinism.You think you are honoring God?Don't you think God knew who would be saved?You sound like a college professor for Muslims. Who can listen to this.You need to start preaching the gospel of Jesus.All that energy wasted.
I am sorry you feel that way. Your comments are quite mean. You have no idea what I need to do. You are not my Holy Spirit. 2 Cor.5:10.
I am a pastor and a chaplain. I teach the Bible 2 or three times a week. I go to nursing homes. I am a chaplain for the Los Angeles County Prison system and go to minister to them regular. My life is far from a waste I am born again. You must be Calvinist and are bitter. You are Free to be as you like. So am I.
@GBFNorwalk The "I" word is somewhere around 7 times.That is hard to believe.The bible says that when you do such a thing, your reward is with man as do the Sadducee and Pharisees not from God.They stand on street corners/internet and say "Look at me, look at all I do".
You say my comments are mean? Mean? You have Calvinists going to hell and you say my comments are mean. You have video after video dedicated at annihilating fellow Christians and you call my comments mean.
Please dont lie. Please tell me when any of my videos or comments say Calvinists are going to hell. Please demonstrate how I have been mean. You may be convicted by my videos, but not because I have been mean. I have given an honest assessment of Calvinism. Where is your outrage at the many Calvinists who say I am not a Christian. Just look at the videos to the right about me. Show anywhere that I have behaved the same way.
@GBFNorwalk How can she tell you, man, you BLOCKED HER. This is a dishonorable thing to do. You ask her to demonstrate to you, knowing full well she CANT.
Are you now going to block me also??
Some of these You Tubers, especially in Christian circles, know each other, write to each other, etc.
Did you not post earlier why cant Christians come together? How are you coming together with me in Christs love? You may want to practice what you preach.
@GBFNorwalk It is my responsibility as a Christian to say you are wrong and you say I am not your holy spirit. What does that mean?What does all you do, have to do with being wrong? Not once did you say I was wrong in anything I wrote, just that they were mean.I must be a bitter Calvinist.No I am not and I said so in my comment.Even if I was, what does that have to do with you being dead wrong?
I am dead wrong now. So we see you are not really about getting along but about being right. Why do you waste so much energy fighting another Christian?
@GBFNorwalk The reason I am even listening to you reading out of an anti-Christ book, is because I received an invitation from you to be your YT friend.I went to check you out and find all those awful videos.There are more Christians martyred by Islamic Muslims right now than at anytime in history and you give those murdering rats a free ride.You need to get on your face and cry to God for forgiveness.and change your heart of stone.
If election is unconditional, then reprobation is also unconditional, making God--not sin--the cause of doom and destruction, which would be unjust, given God's nature!
You all should also watch James White's video on Romans 9 here on YouTube. He exegetes the passage (instead of running through a bunch of philosophical mumbo jumbo) . You will then understand why the passage is soteriological. If you don't it will be because you are not elect :-)
So are you saying James White cannot deal with these text philosophically? How did I not deal with the text exegetically? Please tell me where I am mistaken in the video? If it is soteriological then James White is wrong in that he holds to a posative, negative double predestination. The only double predestination in Romans 9 if soteriological is posative, posative which is an equal ultimacy. Show me a single predestination or posative negative double predestination in Romans 9?
You can see from celal777's comment that if you are not Calvinist, you are not Christian or elect as he said.. This is disturbing. But he gets this from James White who says that non Calvinists protestants, even who hold to all Christian orthodoxy, if they are not Calvinist, calls them "so called" Christians, which means not Christians at all. It's a shame.
@GBFNorwalk I was just being facetious. But on the other hand Truth is one, and if the Holy Spirit is not helping you see it there may be sin in your life that you need to repent of.
Sin in my life? You know nothing about my life. Well if the truth is proven by if someone has sin in thier life then Calvinism is false as John Calvin had much sin in his ife. Come on now you can do better than this.
So putting aside the sin accusations you have started, please tell me exegetically how my video is wrong as you began posting here saying that I did not exegete Romans 9 correctly.
@GBFNorwalk You just did not exegete the chapter -- at all. Whereas James White does. I'll tell you what : i dare you to do a video using White's video and refute his exegesis point by point. You won't because you can't. His exegesis is solid. Romans 9 is where all the opponents of Calvinism fall down. It is their Waterloo.
Tell me where I am off in the video. It is obvious you do not understand the topic or you could yourself explain instead of defering to Mr. White. Your inability to answer yourself may be your Waterloo.
@GBFNorwalk I don't believe in re-inventing the wheel : i will respond to any point by point refutation you dare to make of White's video on Romans 9. Good luck Napoleon ! :-)
This video refutes the belief that White holds to that God passes over the reprobate. You cannot post on Whites videos so I am doing it here. My video proves that Romans 9 teaches that God actively reprobates those who will be in hell not passes them over as is taught in Neo Calvinism by White. How am I wrong? I am sure you will not have an answer. If you dont quit wasting my time.
@GBFNorwalk : I would have thought that since you post videos that you would also know how to download White's video and edit his video by adding your comments or refutations to it. White himself does it with others so he would not mind you doing it with his. You didn't exegete the chapter verse by verse like White does. "Actively reprobates" or "passes over" are irrelevant and just so much philosophical mumbo jumbo. The point is, as others have mentioned, that Romans 9 is soteriological.
I am in the video commenting from the Calvinist perspective. So if soteriological and as James White and all single predestination Calvinists and posative, negative double predestinationists, believe God passes over the reprobate. Romans 9 does not say this. In Romans 9 if soteriological White is in contradiction as Romans 9 teaches an unconditional reprobation. If you cannot respond to this comment, you obviously know nothing about this topic and again are waisting our time.
It is not a contradiction if you hold to Romans 9 being an unconditional reprobation. The contradiction is that James White and most Calvinists believe Romans 9 is soteriological and at the same time hold that reprobation is conditional. Romans 9 if soteriological teaches an unconditional reprobation and an irresistable evil, unmerited by man but willed by God.
On the condition that man freely sins. Romans 9 does not teach that man freely sins if soteriological is the context, it says God reprobates man before they do good or evil. Did you watch the whole video?
@GBFNorwalk : I watched his video on Romans 9 carefully and nowhere does White go on about reprobation being conditional or unconditional. The bottom line is that all of mankind fell with Adam, all sin because they are slaves to sin, and God chooses (for reasons only known to Himself) to save some and not all and He is not unjust for doing so. That is the teaching of Romans 9 .
Calvinism teaches that God chose man to fall. Therefore they had to fall and God in Calvinism is the author and finisher of evil. This is an unconditional reprobation. Is this what you believe? This is what Romans 9 teaches. God does not allow sin but He causes sin. God hardens the heats of the reprobate unconditionally.
@celal777 Correct! He would be perfectly within his right to not choose any"for all have sinned""there is none that understandeth or seeketh after God.""the heart of man is desperately wicked above all things.who can know it? In order to understand election you have to understand total depravity.I did all of the sinning, He did all of the saving. Many alter call,say this simple prayer,I came to Christ and worse of all-this or that is keeping God from saving people- churches, claim to believe TD.
@pwreric Total depravity excludes us from being able to seek God or care anything about His law. Whatever good a man thinks he has is from his upbringing or the criminal and civil laws. Any man can endure adversity but give a man power and you have a real test of his character.
Did you not watch the video? Romans 9 does not say that men are going to hell for Total Depravity, it says they are going to hell before they ever did good or bad merely because they were fitted for destruction. Rom 9:11, 22. So it is not even for evil that men go to hell as they have not done good or bad in Calvinism God has made them for destruction before they were born. Rom 9:21,11
@GBFNorwalk My post doesn't talk about why men go to hell specifically but rather why they cannot come to Christ: because they will not come to Christ.John 6 makes it clear that it is God's work that we believe on His Son in v 29.36 shows that even some of the disciples after seeing Christ "believed not." It's a spiritual thing and we are carnal therefore no one can come to Him "except it were given unto him by the Father" v.63-65. John 6 is rather plain it needs no subversive explanations
@pwreric The doctrine of election is not exclusive to Calvinism. It is however Biblical. I think this is why so many try to make election and predestination synonymous with Calvinism. For if you can make the clearly Biblical doctrine of election dependent on the entire teachings of one man you can confuse the issue.
Well, John 6 in light of Romans 9 then, all men are drawn either for destruction or for salvation by a fatal neccessity, as men in Calvinism can not do other than what God knows they will do. So the reprobate were fataly drawn to destruction unconditionaly and irresistably as in the same way God in Calvinism draws those for honor. You cant have it both ways.
@GBFNorwalk I disagree. We are not drawn to destruction by God, it is our nature. All of us are condemned not just the unredeemed it is God that grants a reprieve to whom he will.
@GBFNorwalk It says some are drawn to Christ not destruction in John 6. You are adding to the text. I don't want it both ways I just want to have the text read honestly. I understand you are associating John 6 and Romans 9 but as far as the vessel unto dishonor, and much of the one to honor, it is simply not mentioned other than by omission. He is focusing on the election of His people and the way in which they come to believe. It may be understood that in not choosing some they are condemned
@pwreric But they were condemned already just as the elect were condemned. If Gods children were never condemned they may have had a reason to boast. God just showed them undeserved favor, grace. Other than according to His own purpose..the good pleasure of His will and so forth we don't know why He chooses whom he will. Its not from good works we know that and He is not the cause of sin. If we are all the same in Gods eyes then it must be because of His choice that some are not destroyed.
Yes absolutely your posts to ceal777 and to me were about why men go to hell. Dont equivovate. God does not leave men in thier sins but reprobates them unconditionally and irresistably in Calvinism or what ever you want to call it. I prefer fatalism.
@GBFNorwalk Well it is only fatalism as you call it for those who perish and it is Gods will no doubt. From a philosophical perspective you are correct but God does not cause men to sin, it is their nature. He only gave man, Adam, free will, it is mans nature that condemns him. Therefore it is God who must do the saving because men can't do it. Look at how prideful we can be even in the salvation that comes only from God in that so many claim to have chosen God and not He them. God knows why.
Adam had a free will? So your saying then that God the creator worked synergistically with man the creature and look down the tunnel of time to create evil?
Calvin,
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
@GBFNorwalk It is not that He elected the the unredeemed, He simply did not choose them for whatever reason. He made the vessel to dishonor in that they are not elected by Him but are no different than the redeemed in that all have sinned and all are created by Him. So if God "causes no man to sin" then it is true that our will is to sin and hate God as the Bible says. In choosing His elect He makes one vessel unto honor and one to dishonor but all honor and glory be to Him not the redeemed.
@GBFNorwalk No sir, it was about why men dont go to hell. Election plain and simply. God does not cause men to sin therefore it is by not being elected that men are created unto dishonor. We are are in a dishonorable state and the only thing that makes us honorable is God therefore all honor and glory is to Him. God has always chosen His people from Abraham right up to the apostles. "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you."
No! That is eisegesis. In Calvinism God cannot have merely passed over sinful man leaving them in sin, in how Calvinists view Romans as soteriological election. Romans 9:22 says God fitted man for destruction. Therefore in Calvinism God has reprobated man unconditionally.
The Greek word is Katartizo. The tense is perfect passive participle and means fitted, prepared.
The passive does not mean God acted passively, the passive voice denotes the merely the recipient of the action.
1) Romans 9 isn't the only chapter that deals with God's divine election.
2) The inferences that you draw from the Greek word for prepared/fitted (katErtismena) more accurately means to complete thoroughly... you know like in Romans 1 when it talks about God handing them over to a reprobate mind.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and deserve damnation for their sins... God doesn't even have to predestine people to Hell because without His Grace we would all go happily.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival
Why would God in Calvinism have to give people over to a reprobate mind? Are you a semipelagian? If God had to give them over then were they not born wicked enough to be reprobate at birth? The comment presupposes that they were not reprobate enough at birth. This is not Calvinistic foreknowledge. Are you sure you are not Arminian?
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk So you're denying original sin altogether right???
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
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Type this on G bar: i p e r t i s a l i t h i a s . g r / p a g e 5 . (with spaces in between, as it is) and then click on the 1st one on top of the page, then read in english: How not to fall into Calvinism's deception.
outofthebox7 11 months ago
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outofthebox7 11 months ago
god is not real! The sooner you realize it the sooner we can all get along and stop fighting over our imaginary friends that don't give a shit about us one way or another.
ryane75 1 year ago
soteriology is the context of Romans 9 for the simple reason of 9:3. 9:6 and following is then Paul's exposition of why the Jews, who are God's people, have rejected Jesus and therefore have rejected salvation. in his description he introduces Jacob and Esau all within this soteriological context. there isn't something else other than soteriology going on in Romans 9.
celal777 1 year ago
equal ultimacy is wrong and is not found in Romans 9 for the simple reason that God is not the author of evil and tempts no one to evil. from the moment a person performs the first sin they become "fitted for destruction". do you believe in original sin as taught in Romans 5:12 & 5:18 ? if so, then you must realise that our sinful nature works "by fatal necessity" to sin and we are slaves to sin as Romans 6:17 & 18 teaches unless of course God sets us free which He did & does in and by Christ.
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
No equal ultimacy in Romans 9? Did you not watch my video? There is nothing in Romans 9 about thier sin is why God sends peole to hell, but God in Calvinism according to Romans 9 sends peolle to hell before they did good or bad (evil) vs 11.. Tell me from Romans 9 how God sends people to hell for thier sin? It says God fittend man for destruction the same way that he makes men for salvation. So God in Calvinism reprobates unconditionally if He saves unconditionally.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk i watched your video but you did not interact with my comments or my questions to you.
celal777 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk You are setting up a straw man to say there is double predestination because that is only for believers. Proorizo (pro-before orizo-to bound inside the border the or Israel the Kingdom of light, or predetermine for light) ... hence predestination can't be used in reprobation or condemnation by definition. Now define what it is to double foreordain and try to make your argument. Not to mention who cares about Calvinism. The words you read from the bible are quite clear. cont...
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
@Tubewatcher52
There is no double predestination in Romans 9? Who are you to question God who siad in Romans 9 when viewed Calvinisticaly that God fitted men for destruction and made vessels for dishonor. If God in Calvinism unconditionally and irresistably made vessels for honor He must have analagously made the vessels for dishonor the same way. They are from the same lump, the same clay and the same word make for both types of vessels.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Forget Calvinistically, how about we talk biblically. There can be no such thing as "double predestination" by definition which I pointed out. If you want to talk about double ordination surely God chooses who will be saved and does choose who will be vessels of wrath (It's in his plan). Paul, Moses, John, etc.. did not mix words. Unless you call it aPredestination which is never used in the Bible. GOD devises all of our steps and fates. This can only be a comfort to believers.
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk : your problem is not with Calvinism it is with God and with His Word in Romans 9 : 20 "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?""
celal777 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk cont... How can u read Romans 9 and say that GOD doesn't elect unconditionally? Call it whatever, but Paul already answered your question b/c he knew scoffers wouldn't get it. The objection has been answered in Romans 9:14-24. Are you questioning GOD? Just like Paul said Who are you O man to answer back to GOD. Becuase you/us don't understand GOD's plan fully isn't because GOD isn't just, fair, right, etc.. It is a limitation on us. Paul gave the answer, but you do not hear it, why?
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk You my friend do not understand human depravity with questions like this.
Rom 10-11 ..None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God
v 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (notice all!!!!!)
You can deceive yourself, but GOD knows your nature before you are born. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners! We sinned in ADAM and deserve his punishment (imputed sin). This is fundamental Christianity..
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk : "There is nothing in Romans 9 about thier sin is why God sends peole to hell"----> that's because you haven't been paying attention. back in Romans 5 Paul already made the case that every person that is born into the human race is born a sinner so already deserves to go to Hell.
celal777 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Steve your problem is,is that you hate the God of the Bible so you have decided for yourself that you would create a politically correct god to worship.You have created a god that you like better,one that man has control over,one that man can merit his salvation with and one that man can demand salvation from and then He must obey every man that says a prayer demanding HIS SALVATION.The Bible tells us that Salvation in not by man's will,but God's will.The Bible knows not your god.
CBALLEN 11 months ago
@CBALLEN
Your problem is that you have made God someone whom you blame for your sin and evil as God in Calvinism has caused all evil apart from your own control. And you are a Universalist as God is the universal cause of all that occurs in Calvinism even your evil. How convenient. You are only sorry that God has caused all of the sorry and evil things in your life. You are logically only sorry for the sorry things you believe God has caused for you.
GBFNorwalk 11 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Oh my. You need to surrender to the Living God.
takingitallin 8 months ago
@takingitallin
Is that so? Defend your comment.
GBFNorwalk 8 months ago
@celal777 you said "equal ultimacy is wrong and is not found in Romans 9 for the simple reason that God is not the author of evil.."
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
AMOS 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Micah 1:12 but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
cont...
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
@Tubewatcher52 : God is not the author of evil in the sense that he tempts no one to perform evil or sin (James 1 :13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."). Isaiah 45, Amos 3 and Micah 1 talk about God sending judgement --- Isaiah 45: 8 (the very next verse proves God does not practice evil "Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open,(cont)
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777 (cont fm previous post) "that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the LORD have created it"
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777 I agree most people like Isa 45:8, but want to ignore v7. I am saying he is soverign author of all things. While he does not tempt anyone he is the author of it. If it exists, he made it as he is author of not some things, but all things for his good pleasure.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I just think people focus on 20th century love and forget that GOD is jealous for his people and uses ALL things... Rom 8:28
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself...)
In the verse that you quoted, what does the word "made" from the original Hebrew word mean to you? I see the Hebrew word used 19 times for the word "work", 19 times for the word "workers", and 10 times for the word "do" more often than any other uses in scripture. It is even used once for the word "ordaineth". Never is it used for the word "create". Is your use for it based on the English dictionary? I'm just curious.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua
paal is a poetic synonym to asah - accomplish, do, make, appoint. Basically to do or make. I try not to put a 20th century spin on words, but I am fallible. I believe the word choice is very dependent on your translation. Baiscally, the LORD works and wills of his good pleasure. What the LORD wills the LORD does and his counsel shall stand. He ordains all things and accomplishes all things he wills. He Makes, Ordains, Works , and Does of ALL things.
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (He Makes, Ordains, Works , and Does of ALL things.)
Can you show me a scripture that reads in that manner? I see each of these words, in their Hebrew forms and definitions, utilized in scripture but never all together. In Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah clearly uses different words for a purpose. Now if we connect Isaiah 45:7 to something like Romans 7:13, it makes it easy to understand why Isaiah would have utilized the different words...with the one, the appearance of the other changed.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua In all fairness my Greek is better than my Hebrew, but linguistically is wasn't uncommon for writers to use differnent forms to mean essentially the same thing. This is why Strong's and the like will reference words that poetic form of ... If you want a big example refer to the shade of petra, petros, lithos. As time went on distinction was lost in the language. This could greatly change the meaning of Matthew 16:18. If you are a Hebrew scholar please help me on these shades.
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (...to use differnent forms to mean essentially the same thing.)
One thing I know about scripture is that it's the literal WOG, not the word of the Hebrews. The Hebrew scribes were so specific in maintaining it as given by the Lord that they would throw away entire scrolls for one error & begin again. To compare it to writings by mere men, I can't. The words that God chose were very specific to their definition just as when He changed Abram's name to Abraham or Jacob to Israel.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua What I meant was a specific poetic license at the time of writing. All scripture is God Breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, etc. but that is not to say all scripture is literal. GOD is the ultimate author, but for instance JESUS used parables alot. These are not literal per se. Nor are the Psalms to be read like the Gospels as they are to not from. Scripture is all literally from GOD, but all scripture is not necessarily literal. Don't forget Revelation
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (GOD is the ultimate author, but for instance JESUS used parables alot. These are not literal per se.)
They are undoubtably the exact words that God wanted spoken before the people. What you seem to miss is that Jesus is the Word become flesh & that Word includes Isaiah 45:7. Without adding or taking away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, true interpretation of any scripture must begin & end in view of the life, walk, death, & resurrection of Christ Jesus.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Undoubtedly, but when do you always use the same word over and over in sentences. Most people use synonyms to sound less redundant. I am being honest here when I say, please give me the shades of the words chosen in Isaiah 45:7. To work and to do are redundant. It is beyond my (man's) comprehension of what true Love and Evil are. One day I hope he shows me, but for now we are all guilty of his wrath and are only here because of his grace and mercy. To him be the Glory!
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (To work and to do are redundant.)
As we clearly see by Hebrew definition, they're different words. The scholars who translated those words in English weren't trying to be poetic. They were translating, utilizing the closest English words possible to the Hebrew word, but even then perfect translation from the ancient Hebrew to English is difficult.
If I tell you that I am going to work the evil to my good, it is far different than saying, I'm going to do the evil to my own good.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
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AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 You quoted: Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
What is the difference between the words form, create, and make according to their Hebrew origins? And what does the word "do" mean based on it's Hebrew origin?
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua
form - yatsar - to form or fashion
create - bara - choose, create, do
make - asah - accomplish, do, make, appoint
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (AMOS 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?)
In Gesenius's Lexicon the word "done" means to labour or to work about anything. You were not interp. this scripture to mean God as the author of or creator of evil were you? We already know that while the people were in great sin, God would allow evil to come upon them. Sin sown has never reaped peace since the days of Adam & Eve.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua This is really tough because what comes to pass that is not ordained by the all mighty GOD? Are we to believe that Satan's work is outside of GOD's counsel. He is permitted to work and where there is evil the LORD has "allowed" or better yet ordained it (see the Cross). People forget that GOD rules ALL including Hell as without his permissive will there would be no such evil. We might see evil, but GOD can use it for good Genesis 50:20
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (...where there is evil the LORD has "allowed" or better yet ordained it.)
Allowing it to accomplish His will & authoring it are two entirely different things. All we need do is to go back to Gen 1 & see that the first words spoken by God were not "Let there be darkness" but "Let there be Light". This is Is 9:2 & Mat 4:16. Jesus didn't author the darkness that was there, but exposed it for what it was, Rom 7:13.
1 John 1:5 ...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua So GOD didn't create everything? Things existed before GOD? GOD wasn't around before the creation of everything? Things were created outside the will of GOD?
My Bible reads a little different [1:1] In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. [2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
(Genesis 1:1-2)
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep.)
Where does the scripture say that God created the "without form & void"? My Bible says that the earth "was" without form & void. It also tells me that the first day was this: 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Did God take the "without form & void" to create the earth or did He create the without "form & void"?
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua OK I don't know if you are just trying to win an argument here. This is nothing more than semantics and isegesis.
Genesis 1:1 - God creates the heavens and the earth.
He created them without form & void. Who created the form & void? Who or what preexisted the almighty GOD. Nothing!
is the Lord GOD not the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end?
Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”"
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Who or what preexisted the almighty GOD. Nothing!)
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...
There's a place outside of God's Kingdom. "Without form & void" & is that place outside of the presence of God. The Hebrew word "moved" means to affect, with the feeling of tender love and is also used for the word "fluttereth" in Deut 32:11 & "shake" in Jer 23:9. That's what God did in Gen 1:2, moved.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua I totally agree that true separation from GOD is hell.
I apologize, but I don't get the moved reference. Gen 1:2
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (I apologize, but I don't get the moved reference. Gen 1:2)
Look up the definition of that word in both the Strong's and the Gesenius's Lexicon.
In light of Jesus being that word, Jesus didn't make the darkness. Jesus brought light to it through His love and compassion for those who did not know God.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Jesus did bring truth and light, but was he not the second Adam.? Who was brought before Jesus to show us how wretched we all are? I am not trying to define GOD here, I am merely stating that GOD's ordained plan has a purpose. We are short sided and only see what we were are given, but I feel pretty comfortable that like he tells us GOD is the bookends of the whole plan. He is the beginning and the end (nothing premempts GOD NOTHING). Before anything GOD existed Gen 1:1
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Jesus did bring truth and light, but was he not the second Adam.?)
Yep. 1 Cor 15:46However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.
& Paul said this:
Rom 1:20For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made...
So to understand Jesus & His gift of life, we look at how the first Adam multiplied. First the seed must be sown, the WOG.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Who was brought before Jesus to show us how wretched we all are?)
Again, John 1 tells us that Jesus is the Word become flesh. Did not that word come before the birth of Jesus in the flesh? Again, we have a view of Rom 7...to show us how wretched we all are, or dead spiritually, better stated. Can we yet turn and repent when we hear the word of God? Yes. A mustard seed of faith can do great things, but it's not there until we hear the word of God. That is a gift from God.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua The point you're missing is that no we can't turn and repent when we hear the word of God unless we "HEAR" it. Christ said unless you be born again you can't even see the kingdom of God. Paul said that none do righteous, all have gone out of the way, no man seeks after God.
It's only when the Word is preached in power and the Holy Spirit quickens us to life that we can hear the Word and be granted the gifts of repentance and faith.
Read Ezekiel 37, thats how the Gospel works.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (It's only when the Word is preached in power and the Holy Spirit quickens us to life that we can hear the Word)
That contradicts much of scripture such as Psalm 119:50 or Acts 2 where the people heard the word, even those who refused to repent, but the quicking which is through the receiving of the HS didn't happen until the people had repented.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,...
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua First of all in Psalm 119:50 David isn't talking about being born again by the spirit (which is what the "quickened to life" we were talking about means). And in Acts 2 the it says the people were "cut to the heart" and asked Peter "What shall we do?" and Peter says "repent and be baptized... and you'll receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit" Peter is talking about the baptism of Holy Spirit (enduing with power of on high). They were convicted of their sin against Jesus.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (Psalm 119:50 David isn't talking about being born again by the spirit...)
That's my point. David is talking the power of the WOG simply by the hearing of that word & even without being quickened via the HS first.
(They were convicted of their sin against Jesus.)
Every man's sins are against Jesus & part of the cup of wrath that He drank, & the crown of thorns that He wore upon His head. It's a Rom 7 thing. That's what the preaching of the WOG does.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua and we all know who's job it is to convict people of their sin don't we... the Holy Spirit. When the Word is preached it's the Holy Spirit that makes men spiritually alive so that they can "HEAR" and changes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh to receive Christ and the Word. Christ told the Pharisees that they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep, and another time that they didn't believe because His word had no place in them (their heart of stone).
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (When the Word is preached it's the Holy Spirit that makes men spiritually alive so that they can "HEAR" and changes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh to receive Christ and the Word.)
One is never spiritually alive until they hear, receive, & repent at the preaching of the WOG. It's then & only then that one receives the HS that changes their heart of stone to a heart of flesh, Ez 18:31 and Acts 2, among the many places. Receiving Christ is receiving the HS.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua One cannot hear unless he is made spiritually alive first. Dead men can't "hear" the Gospel and they certainly can't change their own hearts without the Holy Spirit bringing them to life first. Christ said that unless you be born-again (or born from above) that you couldn't enter the Kingdom of God... the Kingdom of God is the family of God... it's eternal life, which one has when they believe. You have to be born again to believe, that's what Christ taught Nicodemus.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh *(John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes (where He wants to), and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jo 3:6-8
*In Greek the word for wind is the word for Spirit also.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival Yes. One can't be born again without receiving the HS, but one still must repent first. Are you lacking faith in the power of the WOG to open the ears of mankind, leading them to repentance & to the seeking of the Lord?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (When the Word is preached it's the Holy Spirit that makes men spiritually alive so that they can "HEAR" and changes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh to receive Christ and the Word. )
One is not spiritually alive without the HS, but that comes after repentance.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Your error here is thinking that regeneration is the same thing as the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" Peter was talking to the men gathered outside the upper room when the Spirit fell at Pentecost. Those men stopped and made fun of the disciples speaking in tongues, so Peter gave his sermon and explained how they too could have this Gift that they had initially been sneering at and making jokes about.
Regeneration comes before faith and repentance. Read John chapter 3.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (Regeneration comes before faith and repentance)
John 3:5-6Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Regeneration is to be born again via the HS, but just as we see with all the saints in the OT, none had received the HS until Jesus arose(Mat 27:51-53), yet they had great faith in His word.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (Your error here is thinking that regeneration is the same thing as the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" Peter was talking to the men gathered outside the upper room when the Spirit fell at Pentecost.)
What happened in the upper room was not about the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those men had already received the HS on the day that Christ arose from the grave fifty days previous, John 20:19-22. However, first they heard the Gospel preached & had faith in Jesus.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Read Ezekiel 37 the valley of dry bones and 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. (Eze 37:5 ESV) Jesus doesn't ask anyone to follow Him or believe in Him ever (not once). He commands it just like Lazarus who was physically dead (and sinners that are spiritually dead in sin and trespasses) Christ commanded "Come out" and the Spirit made him alive so he could obey the command.
That's how the Gospel works.
God Bless.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
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@EverydayRevival (He commands it just like Lazarus who was physically dead (and sinners that are spiritually dead in sin and trespasses) Christ commanded "Come out" and the Spirit made him alive so he could obey the command.)
I believe that Adam & Eve were not spiritually dead until they disobeyed the command. Lazarus, on the other hand, was first a friend of the Lord's, believing in Him, then he heard the command, then he arose. You missed a few steps. Faith in Jesus came first, then life.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (The point you're missing is that no we can't turn and repent when we hear the word of God unless we "HEAR" it.)
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
According to Mat 22, these people clearly heard the king's invite. The king even called them twice, yet they still rejected him.
By whose choice did these men not come to the wedding, the king's or the men?
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua First off (1-10) this parable continues the theme from the last chapter that the heirs of the kingdom rejected it, and it's been offered to others and God's servants have to offer the gospel to all people(9). The second part (11-14) affirms that invitation to the kingdom doesn't guarantee inclusion; one must be properly clothed. Everyone that hears is invited; many may claim to be in the kingdom but only those clothed with Christ righteousness are actually presentable to God.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua This parable actually ends with, For many are called BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN. What do you think that means? It means that no one came because they heard the invitation, but because they were chosen.
Physically hearing the invitation isn't what we were talking about anyway. Many people hear the Gospel (physically with their ears) and never repent and believe it, but you and I have, so what's the difference between those that reject and those that do repent and believe?
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (Physically hearing the invitation isn't what we were talking about anyway. Many people hear the Gospel (physically with their ears) and never repent and believe it, but you and I have, so what's the difference between those that reject and those that do repent and believe?)
Mark 4:14-22 And this reveals to us what happened to those called by the Lord in Matt 22. This is the same thing that happened to the rich man, he "chose" to keep his riches over the invitation.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Only the seed sown in the good soil can accept it and bear fruit, and the good soil is a good and honest heart, which we all know the heart of the natural man is evil continually and that...
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." <--1Co 2:14
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (Only the seed sown in the good soil can accept it and bear fruit, and the good soil is a good and honest heart, which we all know the heart of the natural man is evil continually and that...)
That's right. However, as Paul shows us in Rom 7, it doesn't take a HS filled man to see his sin & need for a Messiah. The entire OT shows us that. It's by the WOG that one begins to know that they are a sinner in need of a Savour. It via the preaching of the Gospel that one finds hope.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (good soil is a good and honest heart)
No where in scripture do you see that soil good enough to receive the word of God equates to a good heart. As Jesus said, "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God..." This is the soil that is able to receive the WOG: Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
It's this man who is able to receive the Gospel. Hope produces faith.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15 KJV)
Hope doesn't produce faith; hope is part of faith - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 ESV). Faith is a gift from God, that's what Jesus is preaching about in the Parable of the Soils... that only those who have been given a heart to believe can holdfast.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (...that's what Jesus is preaching about in the Parable of the Soils... that only those who have been given a heart to believe can holdfast.)
That would be a good answer if the Bible was a math book & 1+1 always equated to 2, but it isn't. Every faithful person in scripture has fallen under each of those areas where the seed is planted as noted in Mark 4. Abraham is a very good example, & we see the same in many of the churches noted in the NT. Faith is a growth process.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (Hope doesn't produce faith; hope is part of faith - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.)
Faith arises from hope undoubtably. You speak as one who has faith in every ounce of scripture at all times in your life, but most of us know that any faith is a growth process that comes from the hope that we find in the WOG. Most of us know that faith arises, at times, through great tribulation & learning processes to be perfected in us.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua My point was only that hope doesn't precede faith. No measure of "hope" can ever "arise" in the sinner to the point of causing faith. Faith is a gift from God, and our hope in God and His promises comes from faith, not the other way around. Your faith is increased by God through blessing and mercy just as much as through tribulation and suffering.
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Phi 2:13 ESV)
Without faith there is no hope.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (My point was only that hope doesn't precede faith.)
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hope is defined as "expectation" while faith, the substance of that hope is defined as "assurance or confidence" in that which is hoped for. Hope in the preached Gospel precedes faith. If you don't have hope that God desires that none should perish, that He is the unchangable God of love, then your preaching is void of faith.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival (... hope doesn't precede faith.)
I realize how easy it is to get caught up in theology & to forget reality, but that is why Jesus said "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." When I was young, I prayed with much hope in the WOG, but little to no faith. Today, I pray at times with nothing but hope, but much more often with faith in His word then when I was young because I have grown in my faith. Every Christian that I know has experienced the same. Perhaps you are unique.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
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@EverydayRevival (This parable actually ends with, For many are called BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN. What do you think that means? It means that no one came because they heard the invitation, but because they were chosen.)
You negate the very scriptures that show you a people who chose not to come because they prefered the things of this world. If you fell in love with some one & asked them to marry you but they rejected your request, you wouldn't chose to marry them. Did you desire their rejection?
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
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@Tubewatcher52 (Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”")
Of Life, not death.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
1 John 1:5 ...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
In addition to the last comment that I posted, it is impossible for light to author darkness. When light is turned on in a dark room, then we can see what is in that room, but it's not because those things were not already present. With light, the things in the room are exposed & seen for what they are. This again explains Rom 7 & Is 45:7. Like Adam & Eve, God's voice led them out of the shadows, exposing their already present sin.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua Trying to figure this out using out feeble minds is dangerous. Ask youself these questions. Who created Adam & Eve? Was Adam's fall eminent? Would JESUS be necessary if Adam (man) didn't fall? Was the Cross an afterthought or planned from the foundation of the world? Are we to understand GOD's motives or to submit? See I am not pretending to know his ways as his ways are higher than mine. I am telling you that he has a plan and he hasn't given us all the details.
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Who created Adam & Eve? Was Adam's fall eminent? Would JESUS be necessary if Adam (man) didn't fall)
If God had not commanded Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge, would it have still been sin? Again, we get into Romans 7 to see the purposed end result of God's command. He gave the command before the sin because He obviously knew they would eat from that tree. Did God cause them to eat from that tree? Did He command the serpent to tempt them? No
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Are we to understand ...?) Both. If we preach the good news to those who are otherwise dying without Jesus, it's an act void of faith when we aren't sure if He really desires all the people we're speaking to, to be saved, yet the scripture says that He desires none to perish. We were all once vessels of wrath & only after repentance through the revealing of our sins, Rom 7, vessels of mercy, Rom 9, as it's preordained by the word for those who repent to receive mercy, Ez 18.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua But only those who have a faith (from a regenerative heart) will repent. Faith is the gift of GOD by which we are only saved by GOD's grace. Acceptance comes after GOD's regenerative work not before. So the believing ones are the elect not any old dead man who decides to repent on his own. We preach to all b/c we have no idea who the elect are. GOD knew before the foundation of the world and none of the elect will perish as none will be snatched from the Father(John 10)
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (But only those who have a faith (from a regenerative heart) will repent.)
That's right. In light of Rom 7, that is why we preach the word of God in it's totality. Faith cometh by hearing the WOG(Rom 10:17). Just as God gave the command not to eat from the tree of knowledge to Adam & Eve, He gave it as a gift that would ultimately cause them to see their sin for what it was, but His voice heard while hiding in the shadows is that "good news" the Gospel, that draws them back.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (So the believing ones are the elect not any old dead man who decides to repent on his own.)
Not one single person in scripture ever repented without hearing God's word, either written or audible. Why do you think that Satan works so hard to keep God's word out of places like Iran & now the western world? His word is life.
(We preach to all b/c we have no idea who the elect are.)
There are no elect until they hear the word & then repent. Then & only then are they the elect.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua I think you are putting the cart before the horse. [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—[12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
(Romans 9:11-12)
A dead man cannot grab a life preserver. Everyone uses that analogy and it doesn't fit the bible. GOD elects and births who he wills.
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (A dead man cannot grab a life preserver.)
That is like saying that Lazarus could not be brought back to life because he was already dead but when He heard the voice of Jesus, the Gospel that we are to preach to the lost, he arose. Until we leave this earth, no one's soul is eternally dead yet. Thus while one lives and breaths, they still have the ability to grab that life preserver. The physical life that we all have is from the very breath of God.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 ([12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”)
Of course. That is about those of the Law verses those of faith. And in response to "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad", well of course. That's about the Law verse those of faith.
Abraham's promise was to be the father of all nations, but we know that that was by faith, not the Law. They had yet to be born, nor to have done good or bad, but God promised it through that One Seed, Jesus.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (GOD elects and births who he wills.)
And His word has not kept that a secret from us. He tells us that it is those who repent through the hearing of His word.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (GOD knew before the foundation of the world and none of the elect will perish as none will be snatched from the Father(John 10))
Of Course. God can't save those who refuse to repent. It's like throwing a life preserver to a drowning person. If that person grabs it, we know they will live, but if they don't grab it, we know that they will die. That's a given. God's word is that life preserver. If we drown, it is not at Gods hand nor because He didn't want & tell us to grab it.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (We preach to all b/c we have no idea who the elect are.)
No. We preach because we too desire that none should perish & because we know by faith that there are no elect until a person repents. It's by repentance that one becomes the elect & they choose to do so by the gift of the hearing of the word of God. Man is void of faith without the hearing of the WOG. It's the WOG that gives hope & faith is the substance of things hoped for. Josiah reveals that truth to us.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@Tubewatcher52 (Trying to figure this out using out feeble minds is dangerous.)
That's right. That's we simply believe what is written, understanding that Jesus is the word become flesh( John 1:1 & 1:14) and, "For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one (1 John 5:7)." In light of that, if we can't see Jesus' walk on this earth as a man when we read verses such as Isaiah 45:7 and Rom 9, our interpretation is in error.
AllForYeshua 7 months ago
@AllForYeshua It is ironic you quote the Comma Johanneum. While I believe in the Trinity, you do realize that part of John 5:7-8 is from the TR which didn't have some of the older manuscripts. This is probably from scribal error, but is quite ironic in the context. Besides, anyone can have the bible memorized and not discern or accept the things of the spirit (1 cor 2:14) and he is still lost.
Tubewatcher52 7 months ago
@celal777 cont..Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Isa 13:9, 11-18 women shall be raped, GOD will kill babies
Ezekiel 7:4, 9 He will not pity
v8:17-18 GOD will cause slaughter
1 Samuel 16:14-16, 24 4 times An evil spirit from the Lord entered Saul
etc.. you get the point. GOD is author of all, all things work together..Rom 8:28
Tubewatcher52 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
That was an interesting video, I like it! :-)
oniichanrikku 1 year ago
Check out the incredible hypocrycy of 66boeken saying I have a heart of stone. (means not Christian). If I were to say I do witness to Muslims (which I do) 66boeken would say I am Pharisee losing rewards. Whatever.
May God bless you, Steve
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk So this is what you do, you make remarks about 66boeken, the Dutch girl and she is incapable of answering you back...why??Because you blocked her. This is how you manage your channel? You should be ashamed! How is she able to defend herself.
nld1960 1 year ago
@nld1960
Ah, another anonymous youtube Calvinist. Is you hiding behind an anonymous sock account honorable?
I should be ashamed? At least I show my face.
So it is dishonorable that I elect to block people for my own pleasure? Why?
I actually am sorry that the conversation went down as it did. She has no respect. But, no I am not ashamed to break fellowship with such hypocrisy and lies.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk You truly believe we do not give our names on YT is because of Calvinism?
You blocked 66boek because you had no answers to her comments and you were sneaky about it, even asking questions,knowing full well you blocked her.She couldn't answer!She said she is not a Calvinist,I am not a Calvinist,but even if both of us were,is that evil?
66Boek had some excellnt points.Early revivalists being Calvinists.Also one of the finest professors today is Dr.Sproul.Read his stuff,it's amazing
nld1960 1 year ago
@nld1960
There is nothing sneaky about blocking someone. She said I read (anti Christ) (not Christian) material when she came on my video saying we should all get along. (hypocricy) When I told her I did many things other than this to serve God with my time. She said I was Pharasitical (not Christian). She said I call Calvinsts heratics.(lie)
So what good points did she make that you think I cannot answer? I thought you werent Calvinist? I have read Sproul, Calvin, whoever you will bring up.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I don't know man. I wish I had never ended up here.So negative.
You know this stuff a lot better than I. It seem this is all you study.
I believe in repentance, I mean Godly sorrow. I believe in salvation by God's Holy Grace Through Faith.What must we do, the people shouted! Peter said: Repent and believe the Gospel.Jesus said the same.I also believe God knows all who are saved.I also know Jesus gave us two laws: Love God-Love People. If this is Calvinism, I am one.
nld1960 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk If you were so open about blocking her, why then did you continue to ask her questions and make remarks about her when she could not defend your comments. You call that honest. Why did you not say something about having blocked her? Because you did not want anyone to know.The only reason you are even talking about this,is because I stood up for her and knew what you did.
I venture to say that you have blocked many on this series.Makes you look good.Just wipe out the opposition.
nld1960 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Ahhh! Another Muslim incognito!
Many you "elect" to block for your "own pleasure" for two reasons: to make you look good and intelligent and you cannot defend what they say.
You call that lady a hypocrite? and YOU locked her out? And told NO one.
Why should I have my face up there?I'm not making videos my friend, you are. And bad ones at that!
nld1960 1 year ago
@nld1960
Now you say you are a Calvinist. Well God in Calvinism blocks people from heaven that can do nothing to defend themselves, for no other reason than it brings Himself pleasure. If you have a problem with me blocking people because they are hypocrites and liars, then you certainly must have a problem with the god of Calvinism. I have been blocked by many Calvinists. Are they dishonarable like your Calvinist god is if you have a problem with what I did by blocking your friend?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I am a hypocrite, 66boek is a hypocrite. You call so many on your series "hypocrite". It's almost as if you are married to that name. Usually, someone who calls others hypocrites so often, just might be one himself. Some counseling might be in order.
Good luck with your anti-Calvinism Channel and keep studying where those nasty people are wrong and...............Goodbye!
nld1960 1 year ago
@nld1960
So you call me a Muslim because I am soverign over my videos. Well the God of Calvinism blocks people for His pleasure never giving them opportunity for salvation. Thank you for the comaparison of Muslim soverignty is the same as the soverignty of the Calvinist God. Your comments are hypocritical. I have nothing to hide like all of you anonomos Calvinists who have sock accounts so no one can see you. I did not continue to ask her questions. Dont lie. I said notice her hypocrysy.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
Some of the greatest revivals have been by Calvinists, through the Sovereignty of God committed to the doctrine of faith.Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, Spurgeon,these were the founders of America.More recently, RC Sproul, one of the smartest professors of Christianity, then a powerhouse of a preacher today, Paul Washer.By the way I am just a Christian saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.Just a generic one, not a convoluted complex one you teach here.
66boeken 1 year ago
I have no idea what in the world you are talking about. We are saved by grace through faith. Do you think Christianity has to be complex as you make it.Instead of looking at our similarities and come together, you spend all these videos on one thing. Anti Calvinism.You think you are honoring God?Don't you think God knew who would be saved?You sound like a college professor for Muslims. Who can listen to this.You need to start preaching the gospel of Jesus.All that energy wasted.
66boeken 1 year ago
@66boeken
I am sorry you feel that way. Your comments are quite mean. You have no idea what I need to do. You are not my Holy Spirit. 2 Cor.5:10.
I am a pastor and a chaplain. I teach the Bible 2 or three times a week. I go to nursing homes. I am a chaplain for the Los Angeles County Prison system and go to minister to them regular. My life is far from a waste I am born again. You must be Calvinist and are bitter. You are Free to be as you like. So am I.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk The "I" word is somewhere around 7 times.That is hard to believe.The bible says that when you do such a thing, your reward is with man as do the Sadducee and Pharisees not from God.They stand on street corners/internet and say "Look at me, look at all I do".
You say my comments are mean? Mean? You have Calvinists going to hell and you say my comments are mean. You have video after video dedicated at annihilating fellow Christians and you call my comments mean.
66boeken 1 year ago
@66boeken
Please dont lie. Please tell me when any of my videos or comments say Calvinists are going to hell. Please demonstrate how I have been mean. You may be convicted by my videos, but not because I have been mean. I have given an honest assessment of Calvinism. Where is your outrage at the many Calvinists who say I am not a Christian. Just look at the videos to the right about me. Show anywhere that I have behaved the same way.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk How can she tell you, man, you BLOCKED HER. This is a dishonorable thing to do. You ask her to demonstrate to you, knowing full well she CANT.
Are you now going to block me also??
Some of these You Tubers, especially in Christian circles, know each other, write to each other, etc.
nld1960 1 year ago
@66boeken
Did you not post earlier why cant Christians come together? How are you coming together with me in Christs love? You may want to practice what you preach.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk It is my responsibility as a Christian to say you are wrong and you say I am not your holy spirit. What does that mean?What does all you do, have to do with being wrong? Not once did you say I was wrong in anything I wrote, just that they were mean.I must be a bitter Calvinist.No I am not and I said so in my comment.Even if I was, what does that have to do with you being dead wrong?
66boeken 1 year ago
@66boeken
I am dead wrong now. So we see you are not really about getting along but about being right. Why do you waste so much energy fighting another Christian?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@66boeken
So its your responsability to say I am wrong but when I say Calvinism is wrong I am wasting energy. Please stop the double standard.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk The reason I am even listening to you reading out of an anti-Christ book, is because I received an invitation from you to be your YT friend.I went to check you out and find all those awful videos.There are more Christians martyred by Islamic Muslims right now than at anytime in history and you give those murdering rats a free ride.You need to get on your face and cry to God for forgiveness.and change your heart of stone.
66boeken 1 year ago
you need to check out Molinism.
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
What makes you think I dont know what Molinism is? And what is your point? Would you explain why Molinism is a problem for me?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
If election is unconditional, then reprobation is also unconditional, making God--not sin--the cause of doom and destruction, which would be unjust, given God's nature!
Brightstar27 1 year ago
@Brightstar27
I agree. No other way around it.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
You all should also watch James White's video on Romans 9 here on YouTube. He exegetes the passage (instead of running through a bunch of philosophical mumbo jumbo) . You will then understand why the passage is soteriological. If you don't it will be because you are not elect :-)
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
So are you saying James White cannot deal with these text philosophically? How did I not deal with the text exegetically? Please tell me where I am mistaken in the video? If it is soteriological then James White is wrong in that he holds to a posative, negative double predestination. The only double predestination in Romans 9 if soteriological is posative, posative which is an equal ultimacy. Show me a single predestination or posative negative double predestination in Romans 9?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@celal777
You can see from celal777's comment that if you are not Calvinist, you are not Christian or elect as he said.. This is disturbing. But he gets this from James White who says that non Calvinists protestants, even who hold to all Christian orthodoxy, if they are not Calvinist, calls them "so called" Christians, which means not Christians at all. It's a shame.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I was just being facetious. But on the other hand Truth is one, and if the Holy Spirit is not helping you see it there may be sin in your life that you need to repent of.
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
Sin in my life? You know nothing about my life. Well if the truth is proven by if someone has sin in thier life then Calvinism is false as John Calvin had much sin in his ife. Come on now you can do better than this.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@celal777
So putting aside the sin accusations you have started, please tell me exegetically how my video is wrong as you began posting here saying that I did not exegete Romans 9 correctly.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk You just did not exegete the chapter -- at all. Whereas James White does. I'll tell you what : i dare you to do a video using White's video and refute his exegesis point by point. You won't because you can't. His exegesis is solid. Romans 9 is where all the opponents of Calvinism fall down. It is their Waterloo.
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
Tell me where I am off in the video. It is obvious you do not understand the topic or you could yourself explain instead of defering to Mr. White. Your inability to answer yourself may be your Waterloo.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I don't believe in re-inventing the wheel : i will respond to any point by point refutation you dare to make of White's video on Romans 9. Good luck Napoleon ! :-)
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
This video refutes the belief that White holds to that God passes over the reprobate. You cannot post on Whites videos so I am doing it here. My video proves that Romans 9 teaches that God actively reprobates those who will be in hell not passes them over as is taught in Neo Calvinism by White. How am I wrong? I am sure you will not have an answer. If you dont quit wasting my time.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk : I would have thought that since you post videos that you would also know how to download White's video and edit his video by adding your comments or refutations to it. White himself does it with others so he would not mind you doing it with his. You didn't exegete the chapter verse by verse like White does. "Actively reprobates" or "passes over" are irrelevant and just so much philosophical mumbo jumbo. The point is, as others have mentioned, that Romans 9 is soteriological.
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
I am in the video commenting from the Calvinist perspective. So if soteriological and as James White and all single predestination Calvinists and posative, negative double predestinationists, believe God passes over the reprobate. Romans 9 does not say this. In Romans 9 if soteriological White is in contradiction as Romans 9 teaches an unconditional reprobation. If you cannot respond to this comment, you obviously know nothing about this topic and again are waisting our time.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk : I'll respond with a question : Why is Romans 9 being soteriological a contradiction to "unconditional reprobation" ?
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
It is not a contradiction if you hold to Romans 9 being an unconditional reprobation. The contradiction is that James White and most Calvinists believe Romans 9 is soteriological and at the same time hold that reprobation is conditional. Romans 9 if soteriological teaches an unconditional reprobation and an irresistable evil, unmerited by man but willed by God.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk : When you speak of reprobation being conditional what do you mean exactly ? conditional upon what ?
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
On the condition that man freely sins. Romans 9 does not teach that man freely sins if soteriological is the context, it says God reprobates man before they do good or evil. Did you watch the whole video?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk : I watched his video on Romans 9 carefully and nowhere does White go on about reprobation being conditional or unconditional. The bottom line is that all of mankind fell with Adam, all sin because they are slaves to sin, and God chooses (for reasons only known to Himself) to save some and not all and He is not unjust for doing so. That is the teaching of Romans 9 .
celal777 1 year ago
@celal777
Calvinism teaches that God chose man to fall. Therefore they had to fall and God in Calvinism is the author and finisher of evil. This is an unconditional reprobation. Is this what you believe? This is what Romans 9 teaches. God does not allow sin but He causes sin. God hardens the heats of the reprobate unconditionally.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@celal777 Correct! He would be perfectly within his right to not choose any"for all have sinned""there is none that understandeth or seeketh after God.""the heart of man is desperately wicked above all things.who can know it? In order to understand election you have to understand total depravity.I did all of the sinning, He did all of the saving. Many alter call,say this simple prayer,I came to Christ and worse of all-this or that is keeping God from saving people- churches, claim to believe TD.
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric Total depravity excludes us from being able to seek God or care anything about His law. Whatever good a man thinks he has is from his upbringing or the criminal and civil laws. Any man can endure adversity but give a man power and you have a real test of his character.
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric
Did you not watch the video? Romans 9 does not say that men are going to hell for Total Depravity, it says they are going to hell before they ever did good or bad merely because they were fitted for destruction. Rom 9:11, 22. So it is not even for evil that men go to hell as they have not done good or bad in Calvinism God has made them for destruction before they were born. Rom 9:21,11
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk My post doesn't talk about why men go to hell specifically but rather why they cannot come to Christ: because they will not come to Christ.John 6 makes it clear that it is God's work that we believe on His Son in v 29.36 shows that even some of the disciples after seeing Christ "believed not." It's a spiritual thing and we are carnal therefore no one can come to Him "except it were given unto him by the Father" v.63-65. John 6 is rather plain it needs no subversive explanations
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric The doctrine of election is not exclusive to Calvinism. It is however Biblical. I think this is why so many try to make election and predestination synonymous with Calvinism. For if you can make the clearly Biblical doctrine of election dependent on the entire teachings of one man you can confuse the issue.
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric
Well, John 6 in light of Romans 9 then, all men are drawn either for destruction or for salvation by a fatal neccessity, as men in Calvinism can not do other than what God knows they will do. So the reprobate were fataly drawn to destruction unconditionaly and irresistably as in the same way God in Calvinism draws those for honor. You cant have it both ways.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I disagree. We are not drawn to destruction by God, it is our nature. All of us are condemned not just the unredeemed it is God that grants a reprieve to whom he will.
pwreric 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk It says some are drawn to Christ not destruction in John 6. You are adding to the text. I don't want it both ways I just want to have the text read honestly. I understand you are associating John 6 and Romans 9 but as far as the vessel unto dishonor, and much of the one to honor, it is simply not mentioned other than by omission. He is focusing on the election of His people and the way in which they come to believe. It may be understood that in not choosing some they are condemned
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric But they were condemned already just as the elect were condemned. If Gods children were never condemned they may have had a reason to boast. God just showed them undeserved favor, grace. Other than according to His own purpose..the good pleasure of His will and so forth we don't know why He chooses whom he will. Its not from good works we know that and He is not the cause of sin. If we are all the same in Gods eyes then it must be because of His choice that some are not destroyed.
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric
Yes absolutely your posts to ceal777 and to me were about why men go to hell. Dont equivovate. God does not leave men in thier sins but reprobates them unconditionally and irresistably in Calvinism or what ever you want to call it. I prefer fatalism.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Well it is only fatalism as you call it for those who perish and it is Gods will no doubt. From a philosophical perspective you are correct but God does not cause men to sin, it is their nature. He only gave man, Adam, free will, it is mans nature that condemns him. Therefore it is God who must do the saving because men can't do it. Look at how prideful we can be even in the salvation that comes only from God in that so many claim to have chosen God and not He them. God knows why.
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric
Adam had a free will? So your saying then that God the creator worked synergistically with man the creature and look down the tunnel of time to create evil?
Calvin,
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk It is not that He elected the the unredeemed, He simply did not choose them for whatever reason. He made the vessel to dishonor in that they are not elected by Him but are no different than the redeemed in that all have sinned and all are created by Him. So if God "causes no man to sin" then it is true that our will is to sin and hate God as the Bible says. In choosing His elect He makes one vessel unto honor and one to dishonor but all honor and glory be to Him not the redeemed.
pwreric 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk No sir, it was about why men dont go to hell. Election plain and simply. God does not cause men to sin therefore it is by not being elected that men are created unto dishonor. We are are in a dishonorable state and the only thing that makes us honorable is God therefore all honor and glory is to Him. God has always chosen His people from Abraham right up to the apostles. "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you."
pwreric 1 year ago
@pwreric
No! That is eisegesis. In Calvinism God cannot have merely passed over sinful man leaving them in sin, in how Calvinists view Romans as soteriological election. Romans 9:22 says God fitted man for destruction. Therefore in Calvinism God has reprobated man unconditionally.
The Greek word is Katartizo. The tense is perfect passive participle and means fitted, prepared.
The passive does not mean God acted passively, the passive voice denotes the merely the recipient of the action.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago