@ithcus777 How to DEBUNK the CATHOLIC CHURCH on PURGATORY
Jesus who is God told John what happens to Christian saints when they die?
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, FOR THEY WILL REST from their hard work; for their GOOD DEEDS follow them!”
FYI..that's GOOD DEEDS done while the Christian saints are still living, not in Purgatory..LOL
The pope is the anti christ. paul said the anti christ would sit in the christian church and claim to be God. daniel said the anti christ would come to power right after the roman empire would collapse and be divided. daniel also said he would kill the true christians he would try to change the sabbath day and he would call himself the equal of christ. rev 17 said the anti christ would sit in rome with the harlot church only one power matches these prophecies the pope
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, giving an official assessment of the doctrine of purgatory, simply states: “In the final analysis, the Roman Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
@judgerutherford That is the answer for Protestants because they removed OT books from their Bibles in the 1800s. I am assuming you don't want these verses such as:
2 Macc 12:46 - "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."
Also in 1 John 5:16 we can pray for those who die with "sins not unto death" but not for those who die having committed "sins unto death" (mortal sin). Why would Protestants say these prayers for the dead?
There is no suggestion in the Hebrew Scriptures of a punishment for a soul in a fiery hell. This frightening doctrine goes back to the post-Flood religions of Babylonia, not to the Bible. Christendom’s doctrine of punishment in hell originated with the early Babylonians. The Catholic idea of remedial suffering in purgatory goes back to the early Egyptian and Oriental religions. Limbo was copied from Greek mythology. Prayers and offerings for the dead were practiced by the Etruscans.
@judgerutherford You are incorrect. Take a verse from Jesus such as Matt 5:29 about a body cast into hell. Go to a concordance and notice that this refers to Gehenna and "Gehenna of fire." This is of Hebrew origin.
It was the Devil who told Eve: “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4; Revelation 12:9) But she did die; no part of her lived on. That the soul lives on after death is a lie started by the Devil. This lie, the Devil has had spread, that the souls of the wicked are tormented in a hell or a purgatory. Since the Bible clearly shows that the dead are unconscious, these teachings could not be true. Actually, neither the word “purgatory” nor the idea of a purgatory is found in the Bible.
Jas. 5:20, JB: “Anyone who can bring back a sinner from the wrong way that he has taken will be saving a soul from death and covering up a great number of sins.”
(Notice that this speaks of the death of the soul.)
“According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) Not a Bible teaching
SO if the soul dies then there is no pergatory and no hellfire as the soul is dead and cannot feel anything, ecclesiastes 9v5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol,HELL (THE GRAVE) the place to which you are going.
This means NO PERGATORY
This is a false teaching from babylon the great false religion
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man BECAME A LIVING SOUL
Notice adam became a soul, he was not given a soul,there is a lot of difference here, its like saying " i am a cat or i was given a cat" the soul is the person,not something separate, once you get the point then you will see that the soul can die and does not live on when you die, when you die the soul also dies because you are a soul,EZEK 18V4
Another valuable manuscript that has never been possessed by the Roman Catholic Church is the Codex Alexandrianus. It, too, is now on exhibit in the manuscript room of the British Museum in London. It was a gift from the Patriarch of Constantinople (of the Greek Orthodox Church) to Charles I in 1628. It had been in possession of the Patriarchs for centuries and originally came from Alexandria, Egypt from which it gets its name....
@kiwichristian2009 ... Scholars are certain that this manuscript was also made in the fourth century and, along with the Codex Sinaiticus, is thought to be one of the fifty Greek Bibles commissioned to be copied by Constantine.
Catholics defend purg. by quoting the uninspired 2Mac12:40-46 where a "sin offering" is offered for dead soldiers who had committed the sin of idolatry. This not only contradicts the Bible, but also catholic teaching, because idolatry is a "mortal sin" that would confine a person to hell. An ex-nun said the only purgatory that exists is the priests' pockets.
Listen, we are PURGED OF OUR SINS ( not some, ALL ) by the blood of Jesus Christ. Heb1:3,Rom8:1 and John5:24. Remember "there is no more condemnation when Jesus passed over our sins and paid the ultimate penalty for us." Why didnt the apostles ever discuss purgatory? 2Cor5:8There is no mention of pur. here. In Luke16:19-31, Jesus reveals there is a great gulf between hell and paradise that ...
"Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in Heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in Hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins. Therefore after this life, there are some not yet loosed from sins, who can be loosed there from; and the like have charity, without which sins cannot be loosed, for 'charity covereth all sins' [Prov. 10:12].
@djangoxpress None. It is an invention of the roman catholic "church" and a great money-earner for them.God CLEARLY says that when you die, you go to heaven or hell, and that any "purification" that is needed was finished on the cross with Christ. The catholics just dont get it, nor that there is no need to re sacrifice Him in their "mass" ( another money-making invention )
@charis128,you wrongly misinterpreted it,it has no direct connotation about purgatory not even proved it's existence.Jesus purges us all from sins by His death on the cross.What we need to do is to sustain the purification process by Jesus by living pure,blameless & holy lives.The Truth were all spoken by Jesus the Truth Himself,He haven't spoken,elaborated or made mentioned about it,does He? Yes or No?
@djangoxpress The word "purgatory" refers to "fire" in 1 Cor 3:13-17. You don't have to use that word, but know the concept. You can use the word 'purification' if you would like... but the Bible describes it nonetheless. There is also reference to it in the OT, but M. Luther didn't like it. He moved 7 books to an appendix and then the Protestants removed the OT books from their Bibles in the 1800s.
But 1 Cor 3:13-17 remains in your Bible today and that is one of the references to it.
@charis128, Apostle Paul never talk about purgatory in such verse 1 Cor 3:13,you can even review the verse thoroughly.The message Paul want to convey to us is, all about strong foundation of faith solely founded on Jesus to avoid divisions in the church, not purgatory.Jesus atoning sacrifice for our sins(1 John 2:2) is perfect & complete to purify us from all sins(1 John 1:7).None too was equivocally meant by Paul referring fire to purgatory.You are making imaginative link to make it exist.
@djangoxpress Yes, 1 Cor 3:13-17 refers to Purgatory. Your mistake is searching for the word "purgatory" and ignoring the concept of these verses. "Purgatory" is a reference to "fire" in these verses. You can also use the term "purification."
Just as the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, the concept is.
@charis128,as Jesus, the foundation of the Apostles teachings,never teaches about purgatory how then can Paul teaches such? 1 Cor 3:13 was Paul's letter to the Christian church in Corint and the message was never about purgatory.The mention of fire was in fact never to refer to it but a common illustration of a building consumed by fire due to materials it used just like d foundation of church founded on Jesus as the cornerstone.There was divisions & other problems in Corint not about purgatory.
@charis128,Trinity in the Bible was explicitly revealed not in the case of purgatory.Only heaven and hell was well elaborated.Jesus and the apostles over and over mentioned of it but none about purgatory.
@djangoxpress Regarding what you describe, that Jesus "purges us all from sins" is a Protestant belief from that last 400 years. That is not Christian belief of the last 2000 years. Read 1 John 5:16-17. If you die unrepentant of your sins .. the Bible calls it "sins unto death" which we call mortal sins, you will go to hell, whether you believe in Jesus or not.
We are expected to participate... as you say, live holy lives in the imitation of Jesus but there is no free ride.
If hell is a place where there is no escape but the dead DO come out of hell, and if hell is aplace of fire how can hell be cast into hell?
Apocalypse 20v 13-14
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire
if the pool of fire is hell how can hell be cast into hell, as we can see the teaching of hell and pergatory are false
@judgerutherford the first death is where a human dies and his soul if wicked goes to hell yes. The second death is when hell is thrown in the lake of fire, after the final judgment. This judgment is where God will include the devil and his demons. Sense demons don't have body's to die the second death is basically death to the soul. So hell is right now for souls. The lake of fire is later after Satan is completely deated and thrown into the lake of fire along with hell (sinners).
the soul dies so how can it go to hell,the lake of fire is nothing to do with torment but is destruction, you wont find anything being tormented by a god of love, and besides if hell were a place of torment or a hellfire how come hell is thrown into this lake which they claim is hellfire, nonesense, the bible does not say anyone alive or dead is tormented forever, of course you can be destroyed and tormented forever as the word
nobody ever goes to a place of torment wicked or good, what about jonah was he wicked and when he was in that big fish was it a hell of fire there, because jonah said in JONAH 2 V 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of HELL I cried
WAS IT HOT IN THE FISHES BELLY
and was jonah there because he was wicjed and if so he was alive not dead when he went there, explain this
You are not correct here because for one thing the soul is not something separate from the body, the soul is your body, it does not leave your body at death, as they say that woman is a poor old SOUL, the soul is you not apart from you, so when you die your soul dies as stated in ezekiel 18v20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die EVERY person alive is a sinner which means missing the mark of perfection, so rich or poor righteous or wicked ALL are born sinners none are perfect
the second death is TOTAL DESTRUCTION not torment, the word tormenter is jailer so when they are send into everlasting destruction thats the end of them, they are not tormented by god or the devil as he was also DESTROYED not tormented.No they are imprisoned in destruction,they are tormented by the jailer everlasting death,there is no life at all in the lake of fire, hell is not a place where the wicked go its just another word for GRAVE,jerome translated hell incorrectly
the demon are DESTROYED in the second death, in fact everything that goes there is totally destroyed, thats why it uses this phrase as fire is permanant,
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
IS SODOM AND GOMORRAHA STILL BURNING
NO but the results are eternal the same as the lake of fire is eternal NO LIFE
“But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were.”
Rather than being merely abyssed, this time Satan, the original serpent, will actually be crushed out of existence, pulverized, completely annihilated as if by fire
The lake of fire and sulphur” could not be a literal place of torment. (Revelation 19:20) If Satan were to suffer excruciating torture there for all eternity, Jehovah would have to preserve him alive. Yet, life is a gift, not a punishment. Death is the punishment for sin, and according to the Bible, dead creatures feel no pain
Moreover, we read later that death itself, along with Hades, is cast into this same lake of fire and sulfur. Surely, death and Hades cannot suffer pain!
(Rev 20v14, 20)
All of this reinforces the view that the lake of fire and sulfur is symbolic. Further, the mention of fire and sulfur calls to mind the fate of ancient Sodom and Gomorrah
What befell the two cities is called “the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (Jude 7) Yet, those two cities did not suffer everlasting torment. Rather, they were blotted out, obliterated for all time, along with their depraved inhabitants
The Bible itself explains the meaning of the lake of fire and sulfur: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14)
The second death and the lake of fire are clearly the same as the Gehenna that Jesus spoke of, a place where the wicked remain destroyed, not tortured forever. (Matthew 10:28) It is complete, utter destruction without hope of a resurrection. Thus, while there are keys for death, Hades, and the abyss, there is no mention of a key for opening the lake of fire and sulfur. (Revelation 1:18; 20:1) It will never release its captives.—Compare Mark 9:43-47
Referring to the Devil as well as the wild beast and the false prophet, John now tells us: “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10) What could this mean? As mentioned already, it is not logical to say that symbols, such as the wild beast and the false prophet, as well as death and Hades, could suffer torture in a literal way. Hence, we have no reason to believe that Satan will be suffering for all eternity. He is to be annihilated.
The Greek word used here for “torment,” ba·sa·ni′zo, means primarily “to test (metals) by the touchstone.”
In the context, the use of this Greek word indicates that what happens to Satan will serve, for all eternity, as a touchstone on the issue of the rightness and righteousness of Jehovah’s rule. That issue of sovereign rulership will have been settled once and for all time. Never again will a challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty need to be tested
When Satan is hurled into the lake of fire the second death, he will become as dead as a snake the head of which has been ground under an iron heel.recorded at Genesis 3:15 He and his demons will be gone forever. There is no further mention of them in the book of Revelation
souls do not live when you die so how can they be punished, the bible shows you are in error, the soul dies so it cant be sent anywhere, only to the grave, satan and his demons do not live in a place of fire or hell, the bible shows hell is cast into the lake of fire so hell is not a plce of punishment or torture,
satan is DESTROYED as if in a lake of fire as there is not a literal place, the revelation was given in SIGNS, and a sign to show total destruction is FIRE
throw anything into fire and you will never get it back, so when the wicked are sent there ,it means they are totally DESTROYED
Jesus said Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels: He did not mean they would be tormented there, he meant DESTROYED,if something is destroyed thats it, it cannot return so when the wicked are DESTROYED with satan and his demons its permanant
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the GRAVE, whither thou goest. KJV
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in HELL, whither thou art hastening. DOUAY
Hell is not a place of torment as hell is the grave and none are alive or suffering in the grave because the soul dies,EZEKIEL 18V4 he soul that sinneth, the same shall die DOUAY
pergatory does not exist as the word is not even in the bible,the catholic church is guilty of the most horendous crimes in historyt, she aslo promotes false teachings such as hellfire,praying to statues of mary and saints,saying the same things over and over and over using the rosay parying to the mother of god, jesus is not god and no trinity,this false church is the tool of satan as god would never have any dealings with churches that burn people alive for translating the bible,like tynedale
Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
@kiwichristian2009 You misunderstand where the term "Catholic" comes from. In 100 AD, Ignatius, the current Bishop of Antioch, sent out a message to believers who were coming into villages looking for the place to worship Jesus. He said: "Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church'' (Greek: Katholicos Ekklesia) That is how Jesus' church took on the name "Catholic."
@charis128 What does GOD say about the catholic church AS IT IS TODAY? You will find, if you look at the Bible, all the beliefs and doctrines of the rcc are in opposition to the Bible, they are unbiblical, anti-biblical and antichristian.
The bible shows that all religions that teach lies are babylon the great and god is going to destroy all there religions, the catholic church is part of babylon the great as it teaches lies such as hellfire torment,immortal soul, worship of mary, images and crosses, uses beads like rosary which is repetative and the bible does say do not keep saying the same things over and over, it teaches that god is a trinity another sataic lie,oh yes the catholic church is FALSE
@judgerutherford "oh yes the catholic church is FALSE" Of course it is! It is the clever creation of satan. a counterfeit Christianity. On that we agree.
And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’
Also, the traveling merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full stock anymore, a full stock of gold and silver and precious stone and pearls and fine linen and PURPLE and silk and SCARLET. Finally check out REVELATION 18 v 23
And no light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again
Christ promised to protect his Church (Matt 16:18-19) and it's teachings. The gates of hell will not prevail. Even if Rome were to disappear, as long as one Bishop remains on earth, Christ's church exists. It is a promise made to us.
No central teaching of the Catholic Church has changed in 2000 years. Now that is something considering how bad some of the popes/bishops have been. Why did they not change the teachings for political reasons? Think about it.
@kiwichristian2009 The bible is indeed from the Catholic Church. The books were determined in 382 AD at the Council of Rome. Pope Damasus (the 37th Pope) asked Jerome to compile and translate it, It was finished approx. 400 AD. You may see an English version of it at www_drbo_org. It has 73 books. The Bible does say to confess your sins in James 5:16 (to one another) and where Jesus breathed on his Apostles and gave them the ability to forgive sins (John 20:22-23).
These added books by the catholic church are full of superstition and lies, it even says they gave money for prayers to be said in behalf of the dean, these books are satanic Baruch * 1 Machabees * 2 Machabees * Tobias * Judith * Wisdom * Ecclesiasticus * THESE BOOKS do not form part of the holy bible they are all false. So as you can see the catholic church is guilty of heresy instead of calling william tynedale a heretic the catholic church is satans tool to decieve you
@judgerutherford Amenm my friend. Judith falsely states that Nebuchadnezzar reigns over the Assyrians,whereas he ruled Babylon instead.Torbit could not have witnessed the division of Israel into the northern and southern kingdoms in 931BC(Tor1:4),and have been deported 200 years later in 34BC(Tor1:10).Ecc3:3 states that giving money forgives sins. This contradicts Christs' work on the cross. J
@judgerutherford Jerome plainly rejects all the apocryphal books from the canon. In his Prologus Galeatus he says “As there are twenty and two letters, so there are counted twenty and two books. Therefore the Wisdom of Solomon, and Jesus, and Judith, and Tobit, are not in the canon.” (See the intro. to the Vulgate in his own hand.)Gregory the Great,in his commentaries on Job,(Lib.XIX.C16) expressly writes that the books of Mac, isnt canonical,as well as the rest.Josephus agrees.
@charis128 God did not give councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today....
@kiwichristian2009 According to the Bible, what is the pillar and foundation of truth? (1 Tim 3:15): the CHURCH. What did Jesus create in Matt 16:18-19. HIS CHURCH. When there is dissension about an issue in Act 15, where did they take the question? To the Apostles (Bishops) and the priests which was the CHURCH. That was the first council in 50 AD. When people came into villages in the 1st C looking for the CHURCH, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch said: "ask for the Katholicos Ekklesia."
@charis128 ...A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church." Can we follow such reasoning?
dont forget it was the pope who had tynedale burnt to death and burned thousands alive, the bible shows that soon god is going to repay her by destroying the lot, REVELATION 17 V 16
And the ten horns(THE GOVERNMENTS) that you saw, and the wild beast(THE UN), these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought. See god is behind this
@judgerutherford I know. The pope and the office of the pope is responsible for the torture and murder of MILLIONS of innocent Christians. Many of which were burned alive for daring to even OWN a Bible in their own language.
And to show babylon the great is false religion ask yourself what colours do the churches wear? the churches are so sure they are safe as they say this
REVELATION 18v8 For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong. IS THIS RELIGION?
@judgerutherford I know. She ( the rcc ) is drunk with the blood of the martyrs, the pope is referred to as "holy father", a name used for God, he is called another christ on earth, the colours, yes, devouring widows homes? Yes, after the world war the rcc was short of money, so purgatory and "masses" for the dead were promoted, a great money-making invention..
@kiwichristian2009 You are confusing the Church Christ put on earth with the corruption of mankind. Protestantism is not "drunk with the blood of martyrs? Do you not know your English history? Check out King Henry the VIII et al.
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. That does not make him Jesus Christ. Go to Matt 16:19. His is given the keys of the kingdom. To understand what Jesus is doing, go to Isaiah 22:22. The person who holds the keys of the kingdom is NOT the King.
@charis128 Wrong. Again, you are confusing catholicism with Biblical Christianity. Come on, the pope IS called another Christ on earth! "we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for "the Lord Pope", the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called "sweet Christ on earth".Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation VITA CONSECRATA.March 25, 1996.
if the pope is not to be married and they say peter was the first pope then this is wrong because jesus never said to peter you are the pope, jesus would not use the pope as a leader, jesus said do not call anyone on earth your father and do not have leaders for one is your leader the christ, and besides peter was married and thats a fact so he was no pope, and jesus would ever use the pope to lead anyone as he tells lies, the pope now says you cant say jehovah, pope is evil
@charis128 FAMOUS BENEDICTINE CANONIST: "The pope can do all things God can do." - Nicolaus de Tudeschis [1386-1445], "Commentaria" (lvi, 34). "The twentieth century was one of the most crucial in human history, with its tragic and cruel events culminating in the assassination attempt on the sweet Christ on earth" Catholic Information Network.
@charis128 "Protestantism is not "drunk with the blood of martyrs? " Here we go again. This is typical catholic behavior. Rather than admitting the atrocities and bloodshed it has committed, you try to divert attention away.
@kiwichristian2009 I did not divert attention. I tried to open your eyes. I admitted the corruption of mankind. That is not the fault of Jesus Christ. That is the fault of man. And if you are familiar with the Bible, you are aware that those who lead the flock will be subjected to a much harsher punishment that the rest of us...
The Catholic Church is not a museum of saints but a hospital for sinners. Jesus never promised the perfection of man, but of His teachings.
@charis128 Pope Nicholas assumed the title of God. His words are:—‘I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do . . .
@charis128 ...Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God. WHAT CAN YOU MAKE ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be ABOVE ALL GODS. Wherefore, no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.’ See Decret. Par Distinct 96 Ch. 7 Edit Lugd. 1661.
@kiwichristian2009 You are referring to "infallibility." You clearly don't understand what it is. First of all "infallibility" or speaking "ex cathedra" does not mean that the man, the Pope, is an impeccable person. As a man, the Pope can have any opinion he wants on any topic, right or wrong, just like you and I. Ex cathedra is regarding the TEACHINGS of the church re: FAITH AND MORALS only. This comes from a promise Christ made (continued)
@charis128 No, i am not. I am referring to this idiot referring to himself as god! How many "Ex cathedra" ( man, i wished they would use a common language like english! ) statements have been made? I know of two, maybe three.
@kiwichristian2009 Ex Cathedra - is the promise by Christ to be with his church always (Matt 28:20). Also John 14:16-17 - that Jesus made a promise to his Apostles (Bishops) that he would ask God for the Holy Spirit to abide with them forever (AND THEIR SUCCESSORS, obviously, if Jesus was saying forever). See John 14:26. The Holy Spirit will teach alll things AND WATCH OVER THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS' CHURCH. (Continued)
@kiwichristian2009 NOW YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF: Why have the PROTESTANT RELIGIONS SPLINTERED INTO 30,000 DIFFERENT CHURCHES IN 400 YEARS, AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH has remained ONE CHURCH FOR 2000 YEARS? The core teachings of the Catholic Church have remained the same for 2000 years. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD? If you want to know why the ground splits under the Protestant churches, read OT Numbers 16. Aren't these people are rebelling against the priesthood just like Protestants?
@charis128 ahh, the mystical 33,000. Not one person has ever given me proof or even a list of these sects. Now, what about the sects within catholicism? Again, you are a hypocrite when you fail to acknowledge there are sects and "denominations" within catholicism. You class anything that is not catholicism as a "denomination" or "protestantism". Please define "Protestant"
@charis128 "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH has remained ONE CHURCH FOR 2000 YEARS?" What about the Community of the Lady of All Nations, the Palmarian Catholic Church, the Philippine Independent Church, the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, the Free Catholic Church, the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God,
@charis128 how can a Biblical Christian rebel against something that Christ did away with/fulfilled in the NT? Show me a sacrificial priesthood in the NT, please.
@charis128 A study of the New Testament reveals that all Christians are priests. Peter said, "Be you yourselves as living stones, built thereon into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5). Thus, all Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.There is not a man or group of men on earth who can offer unto God spiritual sacrifices for others.
@kiwichristian2009 The Bible you use is taken from the original Latin Vulgate from 400 AD, then changed to match the philosophies of the men of the Reformation. This was done in the 16th C. You are confusing 2000 years of Christianity with Protestantism which has only been in existence approx 400 years. You need to learn the history of Christianity. It is called Catholicism. You are neglecting 1500 years of Christianity as if it didn't exist.
@charis128 Wrong, my friend. My Bible came through the Traditional Text Line, not the Alexandria text line where yours did. You are confusing true Biblical Christianity with catholicism.
@kiwichristian2009 And somehow popped up with the same Chapter and verse lines all in the same order. Catholicism IS biblical Christianity. You just are lacking the knowledge.
@charis128 There are so many verses in scripture that contradict RCC theology Rom 4:5 utterly condemns the System of salvation by masses penance priests etc, bible teaches that salvation is gift of God not of works & this gift is freely given by God to those who trust in the merits of Christ's finished work on Calvary, the RCC SYSTEM is a demonic counterfeit to keep the lost RCs on the broad road to hell
@charis128 It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.
@kiwichristian2009 The Catholic Church is the first Christian church started by Christ. The Bishops and Priests were teaching orally at first and there were few that could read and write. People learned through oral tradition. See 2 Thess. 2:14 "hold to the traditions you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." YES, the "Deposit of Faith" which were the first writings were finished by John by the end of the 1st C. Approx 22 books of the NT were in use. (continued),
@kiwichristian2009 (continued) You misunderstand the reason the "Bible" (a term coined by Jerome) was needed by the Church. There are many, many writings by the 4th C. Many were respected. Some were forgeries (the Gnostic gospels from the 2nd to 4th C). Confusion made it necessary to gather the original writings of the Apostles, including letters. Of the respected writings that did not make it into the Bible, the Catholic Church does recommend reading them. (continued)
@kiwichristian2009 You should become familiar with all the writings of the "Fathers of the Church." These are those people from the 1st and 2nd C who studied with the original Apostles and became priests and Bishops themselves. Many of their writings exist. You can see them discussing what oils should be used and various questions they took to the Church. You will better understand the beginnings of Christianity.
@kiwichristian2009 Yes, it is proven and common knowledge that the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. This is called history. You are unlearned. Suggest becoming familiar with 2 Peter 3:16.
@charis128 Rubbish. Versions of the NT in other languages available early in Christianity:
Peshitta Version AD 150 The Italic Bible AD 157 The Waldensian AD 120 & onwards Gallic Bible (Southern France) AD177 Gothic Bible AD 330-350 Old Syriac Bible AD 400 Armenian Bible AD 400 (There are 1244 copies of this version still in existence.) Palestinian Syriac AD 450
@charis128 If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, "A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher...He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). ...
@kiwichristian2009 You, again, are ignorant of Christianity. In the 1st C most were married, but those who chose to follow in the footsteps of Christ chose not to? And after their wives died, they did not remarry. This is the same today for Anglican (married) priests who convert to Catholicism. They are married Catholic priests that do not marry again if their wives die. Are you unaware that Deacons, like those in Acts 6, are married with children?
@charis128 ...The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says "he must be married." Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text?
@kiwichristian2009 It is not that the Catholic Church does not "ALLOW" a priest or bishop to marry. They have a calling to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Read Matt 19:12. Jesus himself describes giving up marriage and children as difficult by saying "He that can take, let him take it."
This is a choice the clergy makes. They are not forced to. They choose the life. And if they want priestly duties and marriage and children, they can be Deacons for Stephen in Acts 6:2.
what about pergator,praying to images of mary and praying to her to interceed when jesus said nobody comes to the father EXCEPT THROUGH ME,where does it say we should use images and crosses in the bible,if the cathilic church is from god why do they interfere in polotics and burn bible translaters alive at the stake, like william tyndale, no this catholic church is satans tool to mislead as she is bablyon the great whore who is soon to be destroyed by the god they claim to worship
@kiwichristian2009 The term "pope" is a term if endearment by 2nd C Italians for "pappa". The Apostles were also called Bishops. Traditionally, we refer to the Apostles as just that, to differentiate them from those who became bishops after them. See Acts 1:20 "let his bishopric another man take" when they named Matthais as the replacement of Judas, who killed himself. Titus also became a Bishop. The Pope's actual title is "Bishop of Rome."
@kiwichristian2009 Are you purposefully misquoting the verses or have you not read the Bible? READ THE VERSES BEFORE AND AFTER: Matt 23:10 "And be ye called "TEACHER" for one is your teacher, Christ."
The verses are not saying not to call anyone "FATHER" or "TEACHER." You can call your own father 'father' and your teachers 'teacher.' There are MANY examples in the Bible where one gives respect to their spiritual teacher by calling them "Father." Start with 1 Cor 4:15-16.
@charis128 Funny you should say that. How about YOU reading the verses BEFORE and AFTER Matthew 16:18 ! HYPOCRITE! Now, in YOUR opinion, what does matt23:10 mean?
@kiwichristian2009 Hypocrite? OK, the verses before and after Matt 16:18:
Matt 16:17 - "And Jesus answered and said: Blessed art thou Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven."
Matt 16:19 - "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
@charis128 Oops, i meant Matt 16:15-Matt16:20. Catholics use the one passage in Matt16:18 and ignore the CONVERSATION, which when read in context clearly reveals that Christ is referring to HIMSELF as the rock, and this ties in with other references to Christ being the rock, the cornerstone. etc. Why i say hypocrite is that you tell me to read entire passages, yet you guys don't
Our Father in Heaven is incomparably more to be regarded than any father on earth and no master (teacher) to be followed who would lead us away from Christ. This doesn't mean we cannot have due respect for our parents and teachers or SPIRITUAL FATHERS.
If you don't know how spiritual fathers are called "Father" ALL THROUGH the Bible, you haven't read the Bible.
@charis128 " to be followed who would lead us away from Christ.". Interesting. Your priests lead you away from Christ to pray to mary and other dead people. Nowhere is this commanded in the Bible. We are told to pray only to God.
@kiwichristian2009 You have asked many questions, perhaps too many to answer here. You may send me a personal note if you would like more detailed answers. We ask for the intercession of Mary and the Saints because of verses like 1 Tim 2:1 "therefore I desire supplications, prayers and intercessions be made for all men..." Since we believe the Saints are in the body of Christ after death as well as in this life was ask them to pray for us - just like you would ask those alive to pray for you.
@charis128 Yes, we may pray for eachother. We are forbidden from contacting or conversing with dead people in Deut. Show me ONCE instance where the apostles when through dead people. Show me just ONE scripture that says to pray to anyone OTHER than God?
its because when they contact the so called dead, they are being tricked bt satan as the soul dies and there are none alive, they can even speak the same as the person who died telling you they are alive and well, whereas god says they are not alive anywhere,dont be fooled by false religious lies, the dead are not alive in heaven or anywhere else, satan is behind false religions such as the catholic church is one of them
OUR Father NOT MARY or the saints in heaven hallowed be thy name, this name is not jesus but jehovah, jesus is here telling you to pray to jehovah in heaven, the pope tells you not to use that name, so he is gods enemy and god has nothing to do with the cathokic church as he has marked it for destruction at the hands of the UN and all the world governments will soon wipe out false reliogiojn and destroy and burn every church
@judgerutherford Thank you my friend. Even though we disagree on many things and will debate and disagree with eachother for as long as we are alive on this earth, this shows there are still things we CAN agree on.
@kiwichristian2009 For more info re: Saints: they are the "spirits of the just made perfect" and in heaven mentioned in Heb 12:23. That these spirits are in heaven awaiting the 2nd coming is referred to in Ecc 12:7 "and the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it." And 2 Cor 5:8 "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." After the 2nd coming, we believe we unite with our perfected bodies.
Rom 13:6-7 "For therefore also you pay tribute. For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. Render therefore to all men their dues. Tribute, to whom tribute is due...honor to whom honor is due." So we add a capital "S" and call them Saints. We ask them to pray for us because they are in the body of Christ per 1 Tim 2:1.
there are only 144,000 saints and these are joint heirs with christ and make up the kingdom of god with jesus being the king, the 144,000 are kings and priests,the rest of manking live on the earth that has been mad einto a paradise by gods kingdom in the hands of jesus and his associate kings and priests which form the kingdom, so not all are preists, and for clergy to call themselves priests is wrong as there are only 144,000 and these are not on the earth but in heaven
@kiwichristian2009 Regarding your questions about relics, see the story of Elisha's bones (in the original Bible at 4 Kings 13:20-21). Your Bible was changed during the Protestant Reformation. This story would probably be in your 2 Kings 13. See also Acts 19:11-12 and the story of the handkerchiefs.
@charis128 "My" Bible? Rubbish. Like i said, your councils mearly decided what IT would use as "The Bible". This does not make it so. The Christian church merely recognizes the Word of God (John 10:27). The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles. It does not rest in the declaration of the Catholic Church.
@kiwichristian2009 To understand the roles of bishops versus priests, you need to understand the original Greek words: epikopoi (bishops) and presbuteroi (priests). You should also become aware of Deacons from Acts 6:2 (the world "serve" is Diakonos) and where we get the word Deacon. To undestand the special calling of the priests and bishops and nuns refer to Matt 19:12 and 2 Cor 7.
@kiwichristian2009 Christ did speak Greek and quoted the Old Testament which was from the Septuagint - the Greek text was finished in 132 BC. Greek in the 1st C was the common language, as English is today. Only Matthew was written in Aramaic. Jesus also spoke in Hebrew, as in the temple.
@kiwichristian2009 I hope some of these answers help you on your journey. Do understand that your Bible was changed from the original so you will be missing an understanding of many things. God bless...
@charis128 the early church as described in the NT did the following: shared all things in common, relationships, support missionaries/ministers, teaching & preaching, praying, worshiping, reading of scripture, evangelism, fostering spiritual gifts. No where does the NT dictate fancy buildings, robes, repetitive prayer, a priesthood, Mary worship, sectarianism, or any order of service, etc.. all these are man made traditions added on.
Interesting. Please point me towards scripture thats talks about these things. I can't seem to find anything that says there is a waiting place for us to cleanse ourselves after we die. Also, if I do all the indulgences BEFORE I die, do I still go to purgatory and for how long? I can't find that in scripture either. Thanks
ALSO please note that when jesus died he did not go to a place where the demons live called HELL,hell is the grave and jesus went there, if he were alive then that would mean the sacrifice jesus made was not valid because he had to die as a man once for all time, never to come back as a man, if he did come back as a man he would be taking back what he gave up, his perfect life, jesus really died and was not alive in hell for three days, to show this is true read 1 PETER 3V18
1 PETER 3v18 Christ died ONCE FOR ALL TIME concerning sins---that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being MADE ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT In this state (SPIRIT STATE) also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison(THE DEMONS) who had once been disobedient, NOW check 2Peter 2:4
if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness
@judgerutherford 1 Peter 4:6 is NOT referring to DEMONS. Does this sound like verbiage to demons?
1 Peter 4:6 - "preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may LIVE ACCORDING TO GOD, IN THE SPIRIT?
@ShuffleUpTv If purgatory is true then the 'catholic' Christ didn't accomplish anything on the cross, wasted his time and died for nothing. The 'catholic' Christ should have hired a pro instead of doing the job himself. The Christ of Christianity is the Pro. He got the job on the cross done right the first time. And.....He did it for free!
The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU slew, hanging him upon a TREE
And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they also did away with him by hanging him on a TREE
The word cross is not the correct word for xylon or stouros
it should be pole or stake
never cross, this is another lie from the false religious churches
the truth of the matter is you dont go anywhere when you die,the pergatory lie is there to draw you away from knowing god, as the bible says in ezekiel 18v20 THE SOUL DIES when you die as you are a soul, the soul is not something apart from you, you are the soul, look at genesis 2v7 where is says: And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man BECAME a living soul. ADAM WAS NOT GIVEN A SOUL
Dont worry you wont be going to pergatory because it does not exists, ask yourself if the soul dies how can it be tormented in hellfire or how can it do anything if its dead,there is no life after death, the only hope for the dead is the resurrection,there is not one person who has ever died alive in the spirit realm, there are those demons in this realm who make out they are the ones who have died so as to decieve you into thinking that they dont really die, god says the soul dies
indulgences are not what god agrees to these indulgences were made up by the false religions so that you could commit sins and then get away with it by paying money to the church, do you really thing god agrees to these lies?
you are decieving yourself if you think god agrees. you ask god to forgiver you not any priest or vicar, they have no power to forgive you or anyone, they are false and not doing gods will at all
tell me in what verse of the Bible does it mention purgatory. If purgatory was Biblical wouldn't of Jesus have told the thief on the cross today I will see you in purgatory? purgatory is a pagan belief that is very much like karma with a free-be salvation pass. And also where does God give the church control over such a thing idea of delaying or speeding up the "cleansing" waiting period you speak of. and what about non catholics are they just screwed? all because we aren't catholic????????
@crxpunkb16 "Purgatory" is a concept mentioned in 1 Cor 3:13-17. The word purgatory came from the reference to "fire" in these verses. Your question regarding what Jesus said to the thief "I will see you in paradise" does not refer to heaven. You need to have an understanding of 1st C Judaism to understand that "paradesio" is a reference to sheol, which is "Abraham's bosom" mentioned in Luke. Heaven is different. Christ descends to this place after the crucifixion.
@charis128 Rubbish. those verses mean nothing of the sort. If God is just to forgive us our large sins or debts, should we not be just as forgiving of smaller sins or debts against us? Paradise is where Christ descended. Purgatory doesn't sound like no paradise to me!
jesus said to the thief, truly i tell you TODAY,,,,,,,,,,,, you will be with me in paradise, where did jesus go when he died PARADISE?
NO because jesus was telling the thief THAT DAY.. that at a future time he will be in paradise because when the theif died he did not go anywhere but the the bible hell THE GRAVE,when jesus died he went to the same place THE GRAVE,he did NOT go to paradise, Jesus did not say i tell you,,, Today you will be in paradise, but said i tell you today....you
@judgerutherford No, the verse reads as follows: Luke 23:43 - "And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee,THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in paradise."
Jesus meant was He said. You need to understand that paradeiso, Sheol and Abraham's bosom are the same place. It is not the Hell of the Damned. You don't get out of Hell. Jesus went to preach to the dead in 1 Peter 4:6 who were spirits -- read the verses.
when jesus died he did not go anywhere but to the grave, the bible hell,sheol or hades, all are the same place, he did not go to hell to visit anyone, he was DEAD,paradise means eden, garden of pleasure, so when jesus said to the evildoer he would be in paradise, jesus was talking about when the earth is a paradise again an EDEN then this evildoer would be resurrected into this paradise, this evildoer was NOT alive anywhere,he is still in hades hell awaiting a resurrection
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@ithcus777 How to DEBUNK the CATHOLIC CHURCH on PURGATORY
Jesus who is God told John what happens to Christian saints when they die?
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, FOR THEY WILL REST from their hard work; for their GOOD DEEDS follow them!”
FYI..that's GOOD DEEDS done while the Christian saints are still living, not in Purgatory..LOL
abukid 1 month ago
The pope is the anti christ. paul said the anti christ would sit in the christian church and claim to be God. daniel said the anti christ would come to power right after the roman empire would collapse and be divided. daniel also said he would kill the true christians he would try to change the sabbath day and he would call himself the equal of christ. rev 17 said the anti christ would sit in rome with the harlot church only one power matches these prophecies the pope
vladimirkovalski 9 months ago
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, giving an official assessment of the doctrine of purgatory, simply states: “In the final analysis, the Roman Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford That is the answer for Protestants because they removed OT books from their Bibles in the 1800s. I am assuming you don't want these verses such as:
2 Macc 12:46 - "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."
Also in 1 John 5:16 we can pray for those who die with "sins not unto death" but not for those who die having committed "sins unto death" (mortal sin). Why would Protestants say these prayers for the dead?
charis128 1 year ago
There is no suggestion in the Hebrew Scriptures of a punishment for a soul in a fiery hell. This frightening doctrine goes back to the post-Flood religions of Babylonia, not to the Bible. Christendom’s doctrine of punishment in hell originated with the early Babylonians. The Catholic idea of remedial suffering in purgatory goes back to the early Egyptian and Oriental religions. Limbo was copied from Greek mythology. Prayers and offerings for the dead were practiced by the Etruscans.
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford You are incorrect. Take a verse from Jesus such as Matt 5:29 about a body cast into hell. Go to a concordance and notice that this refers to Gehenna and "Gehenna of fire." This is of Hebrew origin.
charis128 1 year ago
It was the Devil who told Eve: “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4; Revelation 12:9) But she did die; no part of her lived on. That the soul lives on after death is a lie started by the Devil. This lie, the Devil has had spread, that the souls of the wicked are tormented in a hell or a purgatory. Since the Bible clearly shows that the dead are unconscious, these teachings could not be true. Actually, neither the word “purgatory” nor the idea of a purgatory is found in the Bible.
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford May I ask what religion you are that does not believe in the soul?
charis128 1 year ago
Rom. 6:7, NAB: “A man who is dead has been freed from sin.”
Rev. 1:5, JB: “Jesus Christ . . . loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood.”
Purgatory is not needed and so is a lie from satan the devil gods enemy
judgerutherford 1 year ago
Jas. 5:20, JB: “Anyone who can bring back a sinner from the wrong way that he has taken will be saving a soul from death and covering up a great number of sins.”
(Notice that this speaks of the death of the soul.)
judgerutherford 1 year ago
Definition:
“According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) Not a Bible teaching
judgerutherford 1 year ago
SO if the soul dies then there is no pergatory and no hellfire as the soul is dead and cannot feel anything, ecclesiastes 9v5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol,HELL (THE GRAVE) the place to which you are going.
This means NO PERGATORY
This is a false teaching from babylon the great false religion
judgerutherford 1 year ago
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man BECAME A LIVING SOUL
Notice adam became a soul, he was not given a soul,there is a lot of difference here, its like saying " i am a cat or i was given a cat" the soul is the person,not something separate, once you get the point then you will see that the soul can die and does not live on when you die, when you die the soul also dies because you are a soul,EZEK 18V4
judgerutherford 1 year ago
Another valuable manuscript that has never been possessed by the Roman Catholic Church is the Codex Alexandrianus. It, too, is now on exhibit in the manuscript room of the British Museum in London. It was a gift from the Patriarch of Constantinople (of the Greek Orthodox Church) to Charles I in 1628. It had been in possession of the Patriarchs for centuries and originally came from Alexandria, Egypt from which it gets its name....
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 ... Scholars are certain that this manuscript was also made in the fourth century and, along with the Codex Sinaiticus, is thought to be one of the fifty Greek Bibles commissioned to be copied by Constantine.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Catholics defend purg. by quoting the uninspired 2Mac12:40-46 where a "sin offering" is offered for dead soldiers who had committed the sin of idolatry. This not only contradicts the Bible, but also catholic teaching, because idolatry is a "mortal sin" that would confine a person to hell. An ex-nun said the only purgatory that exists is the priests' pockets.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Listen, we are PURGED OF OUR SINS ( not some, ALL ) by the blood of Jesus Christ. Heb1:3,Rom8:1 and John5:24. Remember "there is no more condemnation when Jesus passed over our sins and paid the ultimate penalty for us." Why didnt the apostles ever discuss purgatory? 2Cor5:8There is no mention of pur. here. In Luke16:19-31, Jesus reveals there is a great gulf between hell and paradise that ...
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
"Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in Heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in Hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins. Therefore after this life, there are some not yet loosed from sins, who can be loosed there from; and the like have charity, without which sins cannot be loosed, for 'charity covereth all sins' [Prov. 10:12].
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
What verses from the Holy Bible did Jesus taught us or made mentioned about purgatory?
djangoxpress 1 year ago
@djangoxpress None. It is an invention of the roman catholic "church" and a great money-earner for them.God CLEARLY says that when you die, you go to heaven or hell, and that any "purification" that is needed was finished on the cross with Christ. The catholics just dont get it, nor that there is no need to re sacrifice Him in their "mass" ( another money-making invention )
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@djangoxpress 1 Cor 3:13-17. The word "purgatory" is from the reference to "fire."
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128,you wrongly misinterpreted it,it has no direct connotation about purgatory not even proved it's existence.Jesus purges us all from sins by His death on the cross.What we need to do is to sustain the purification process by Jesus by living pure,blameless & holy lives.The Truth were all spoken by Jesus the Truth Himself,He haven't spoken,elaborated or made mentioned about it,does He? Yes or No?
djangoxpress 1 year ago
@djangoxpress The word "purgatory" refers to "fire" in 1 Cor 3:13-17. You don't have to use that word, but know the concept. You can use the word 'purification' if you would like... but the Bible describes it nonetheless. There is also reference to it in the OT, but M. Luther didn't like it. He moved 7 books to an appendix and then the Protestants removed the OT books from their Bibles in the 1800s.
But 1 Cor 3:13-17 remains in your Bible today and that is one of the references to it.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128, Apostle Paul never talk about purgatory in such verse 1 Cor 3:13,you can even review the verse thoroughly.The message Paul want to convey to us is, all about strong foundation of faith solely founded on Jesus to avoid divisions in the church, not purgatory.Jesus atoning sacrifice for our sins(1 John 2:2) is perfect & complete to purify us from all sins(1 John 1:7).None too was equivocally meant by Paul referring fire to purgatory.You are making imaginative link to make it exist.
djangoxpress 1 year ago
@djangoxpress Yes, 1 Cor 3:13-17 refers to Purgatory. Your mistake is searching for the word "purgatory" and ignoring the concept of these verses. "Purgatory" is a reference to "fire" in these verses. You can also use the term "purification."
Just as the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, the concept is.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128,as Jesus, the foundation of the Apostles teachings,never teaches about purgatory how then can Paul teaches such? 1 Cor 3:13 was Paul's letter to the Christian church in Corint and the message was never about purgatory.The mention of fire was in fact never to refer to it but a common illustration of a building consumed by fire due to materials it used just like d foundation of church founded on Jesus as the cornerstone.There was divisions & other problems in Corint not about purgatory.
djangoxpress 1 year ago
@charis128,Trinity in the Bible was explicitly revealed not in the case of purgatory.Only heaven and hell was well elaborated.Jesus and the apostles over and over mentioned of it but none about purgatory.
djangoxpress 1 year ago
@djangoxpress your protestant bible has not as much books as the catholic bible in one of the books we have it mantions purgatory
speedy779 1 year ago
@djangoxpress Regarding what you describe, that Jesus "purges us all from sins" is a Protestant belief from that last 400 years. That is not Christian belief of the last 2000 years. Read 1 John 5:16-17. If you die unrepentant of your sins .. the Bible calls it "sins unto death" which we call mortal sins, you will go to hell, whether you believe in Jesus or not.
We are expected to participate... as you say, live holy lives in the imitation of Jesus but there is no free ride.
charis128 1 year ago
If hell is a place where there is no escape but the dead DO come out of hell, and if hell is aplace of fire how can hell be cast into hell?
Apocalypse 20v 13-14
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire
if the pool of fire is hell how can hell be cast into hell, as we can see the teaching of hell and pergatory are false
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford the first death is where a human dies and his soul if wicked goes to hell yes. The second death is when hell is thrown in the lake of fire, after the final judgment. This judgment is where God will include the devil and his demons. Sense demons don't have body's to die the second death is basically death to the soul. So hell is right now for souls. The lake of fire is later after Satan is completely deated and thrown into the lake of fire along with hell (sinners).
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
the soul dies so how can it go to hell,the lake of fire is nothing to do with torment but is destruction, you wont find anything being tormented by a god of love, and besides if hell were a place of torment or a hellfire how come hell is thrown into this lake which they claim is hellfire, nonesense, the bible does not say anyone alive or dead is tormented forever, of course you can be destroyed and tormented forever as the word
torment is jailer not punishemnt
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
nobody ever goes to a place of torment wicked or good, what about jonah was he wicked and when he was in that big fish was it a hell of fire there, because jonah said in JONAH 2 V 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of HELL I cried
WAS IT HOT IN THE FISHES BELLY
and was jonah there because he was wicjed and if so he was alive not dead when he went there, explain this
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
You are not correct here because for one thing the soul is not something separate from the body, the soul is your body, it does not leave your body at death, as they say that woman is a poor old SOUL, the soul is you not apart from you, so when you die your soul dies as stated in ezekiel 18v20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die EVERY person alive is a sinner which means missing the mark of perfection, so rich or poor righteous or wicked ALL are born sinners none are perfect
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
the second death is TOTAL DESTRUCTION not torment, the word tormenter is jailer so when they are send into everlasting destruction thats the end of them, they are not tormented by god or the devil as he was also DESTROYED not tormented.No they are imprisoned in destruction,they are tormented by the jailer everlasting death,there is no life at all in the lake of fire, hell is not a place where the wicked go its just another word for GRAVE,jerome translated hell incorrectly
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
the demon are DESTROYED in the second death, in fact everything that goes there is totally destroyed, thats why it uses this phrase as fire is permanant,
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
IS SODOM AND GOMORRAHA STILL BURNING
NO but the results are eternal the same as the lake of fire is eternal NO LIFE
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford "he demon are DESTROYED in the second death" can you point me to this biblical passage, please?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
The second death, Is the lake of fire.Rev 20:14; 21:8
REV 20v14 And death and Hades(THE GRAVE) were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.
REV 21v8 But as for the cowards ----their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.”
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
REV 20V9
“But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were.”
Rather than being merely abyssed, this time Satan, the original serpent, will actually be crushed out of existence, pulverized, completely annihilated as if by fire
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
The lake of fire and sulphur” could not be a literal place of torment. (Revelation 19:20) If Satan were to suffer excruciating torture there for all eternity, Jehovah would have to preserve him alive. Yet, life is a gift, not a punishment. Death is the punishment for sin, and according to the Bible, dead creatures feel no pain
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
Moreover, we read later that death itself, along with Hades, is cast into this same lake of fire and sulfur. Surely, death and Hades cannot suffer pain!
(Rev 20v14, 20)
All of this reinforces the view that the lake of fire and sulfur is symbolic. Further, the mention of fire and sulfur calls to mind the fate of ancient Sodom and Gomorrah
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
What befell the two cities is called “the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (Jude 7) Yet, those two cities did not suffer everlasting torment. Rather, they were blotted out, obliterated for all time, along with their depraved inhabitants
The Bible itself explains the meaning of the lake of fire and sulfur: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14)
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
The second death and the lake of fire are clearly the same as the Gehenna that Jesus spoke of, a place where the wicked remain destroyed, not tortured forever. (Matthew 10:28) It is complete, utter destruction without hope of a resurrection. Thus, while there are keys for death, Hades, and the abyss, there is no mention of a key for opening the lake of fire and sulfur. (Revelation 1:18; 20:1) It will never release its captives.—Compare Mark 9:43-47
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
Referring to the Devil as well as the wild beast and the false prophet, John now tells us: “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10) What could this mean? As mentioned already, it is not logical to say that symbols, such as the wild beast and the false prophet, as well as death and Hades, could suffer torture in a literal way. Hence, we have no reason to believe that Satan will be suffering for all eternity. He is to be annihilated.
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
The Greek word used here for “torment,” ba·sa·ni′zo, means primarily “to test (metals) by the touchstone.”
In the context, the use of this Greek word indicates that what happens to Satan will serve, for all eternity, as a touchstone on the issue of the rightness and righteousness of Jehovah’s rule. That issue of sovereign rulership will have been settled once and for all time. Never again will a challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty need to be tested
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
When Satan is hurled into the lake of fire the second death, he will become as dead as a snake the head of which has been ground under an iron heel.recorded at Genesis 3:15 He and his demons will be gone forever. There is no further mention of them in the book of Revelation
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
souls do not live when you die so how can they be punished, the bible shows you are in error, the soul dies so it cant be sent anywhere, only to the grave, satan and his demons do not live in a place of fire or hell, the bible shows hell is cast into the lake of fire so hell is not a plce of punishment or torture,
satan is DESTROYED as if in a lake of fire as there is not a literal place, the revelation was given in SIGNS, and a sign to show total destruction is FIRE
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
throw anything into fire and you will never get it back, so when the wicked are sent there ,it means they are totally DESTROYED
Jesus said Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels: He did not mean they would be tormented there, he meant DESTROYED,if something is destroyed thats it, it cannot return so when the wicked are DESTROYED with satan and his demons its permanant
judgerutherford 1 year ago
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the GRAVE, whither thou goest. KJV
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in HELL, whither thou art hastening. DOUAY
Hell is not a place of torment as hell is the grave and none are alive or suffering in the grave because the soul dies,EZEKIEL 18V4 he soul that sinneth, the same shall die DOUAY
judgerutherford 1 year ago
if souls go to this false place pergatory how can they get there when the soul dies?
ezekiel 18v4 and 20 says
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall DIE
The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE
ECCLESIASTES 9V5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
pergatory is a false religious teaching not from god
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford Purgatory is in 1 Cor 3:13-17. It was a 1st C Judaic belief.
charis128 1 year ago
What does this say
GODISNOWHERE
judgerutherford 1 year ago
pergatory does not exist as the word is not even in the bible,the catholic church is guilty of the most horendous crimes in historyt, she aslo promotes false teachings such as hellfire,praying to statues of mary and saints,saying the same things over and over and over using the rosay parying to the mother of god, jesus is not god and no trinity,this false church is the tool of satan as god would never have any dealings with churches that burn people alive for translating the bible,like tynedale
judgerutherford 1 year ago
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@kiwichristian2009
Show me where the Bible says it is a Protestant book, then.
UncleSaltyTaterChips 1 year ago
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Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 You misunderstand where the term "Catholic" comes from. In 100 AD, Ignatius, the current Bishop of Antioch, sent out a message to believers who were coming into villages looking for the place to worship Jesus. He said: "Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church'' (Greek: Katholicos Ekklesia) That is how Jesus' church took on the name "Catholic."
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 What does GOD say about the catholic church AS IT IS TODAY? You will find, if you look at the Bible, all the beliefs and doctrines of the rcc are in opposition to the Bible, they are unbiblical, anti-biblical and antichristian.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
The bible shows that all religions that teach lies are babylon the great and god is going to destroy all there religions, the catholic church is part of babylon the great as it teaches lies such as hellfire torment,immortal soul, worship of mary, images and crosses, uses beads like rosary which is repetative and the bible does say do not keep saying the same things over and over, it teaches that god is a trinity another sataic lie,oh yes the catholic church is FALSE
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford "oh yes the catholic church is FALSE" Of course it is! It is the clever creation of satan. a counterfeit Christianity. On that we agree.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
REVEATION 18 V 9
And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
REVELATION 18v11
Also, the traveling merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full stock anymore, a full stock of gold and silver and precious stone and pearls and fine linen and PURPLE and silk and SCARLET. Finally check out REVELATION 18 v 23
And no light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again
You will find BRIDES AND BRIDEGROOMS in churches
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Examples?
Christ promised to protect his Church (Matt 16:18-19) and it's teachings. The gates of hell will not prevail. Even if Rome were to disappear, as long as one Bishop remains on earth, Christ's church exists. It is a promise made to us.
No central teaching of the Catholic Church has changed in 2000 years. Now that is something considering how bad some of the popes/bishops have been. Why did they not change the teachings for political reasons? Think about it.
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 The bible is indeed from the Catholic Church. The books were determined in 382 AD at the Council of Rome. Pope Damasus (the 37th Pope) asked Jerome to compile and translate it, It was finished approx. 400 AD. You may see an English version of it at www_drbo_org. It has 73 books. The Bible does say to confess your sins in James 5:16 (to one another) and where Jesus breathed on his Apostles and gave them the ability to forgive sins (John 20:22-23).
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Rubbish. The "council" mearly declared what the rcc would determine as its Bible.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
These added books by the catholic church are full of superstition and lies, it even says they gave money for prayers to be said in behalf of the dean, these books are satanic Baruch * 1 Machabees * 2 Machabees * Tobias * Judith * Wisdom * Ecclesiasticus * THESE BOOKS do not form part of the holy bible they are all false. So as you can see the catholic church is guilty of heresy instead of calling william tynedale a heretic the catholic church is satans tool to decieve you
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford Amenm my friend. Judith falsely states that Nebuchadnezzar reigns over the Assyrians,whereas he ruled Babylon instead.Torbit could not have witnessed the division of Israel into the northern and southern kingdoms in 931BC(Tor1:4),and have been deported 200 years later in 34BC(Tor1:10).Ecc3:3 states that giving money forgives sins. This contradicts Christs' work on the cross. J
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@judgerutherford Jerome plainly rejects all the apocryphal books from the canon. In his Prologus Galeatus he says “As there are twenty and two letters, so there are counted twenty and two books. Therefore the Wisdom of Solomon, and Jesus, and Judith, and Tobit, are not in the canon.” (See the intro. to the Vulgate in his own hand.)Gregory the Great,in his commentaries on Job,(Lib.XIX.C16) expressly writes that the books of Mac, isnt canonical,as well as the rest.Josephus agrees.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 God did not give councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today....
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 According to the Bible, what is the pillar and foundation of truth? (1 Tim 3:15): the CHURCH. What did Jesus create in Matt 16:18-19. HIS CHURCH. When there is dissension about an issue in Act 15, where did they take the question? To the Apostles (Bishops) and the priests which was the CHURCH. That was the first council in 50 AD. When people came into villages in the 1st C looking for the CHURCH, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch said: "ask for the Katholicos Ekklesia."
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 ...A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church." Can we follow such reasoning?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
dont forget it was the pope who had tynedale burnt to death and burned thousands alive, the bible shows that soon god is going to repay her by destroying the lot, REVELATION 17 V 16
And the ten horns(THE GOVERNMENTS) that you saw, and the wild beast(THE UN), these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought. See god is behind this
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford I know. The pope and the office of the pope is responsible for the torture and murder of MILLIONS of innocent Christians. Many of which were burned alive for daring to even OWN a Bible in their own language.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
And to show babylon the great is false religion ask yourself what colours do the churches wear? the churches are so sure they are safe as they say this
REVELATION 18v8 For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong. IS THIS RELIGION?
YES IT IS
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford I know. She ( the rcc ) is drunk with the blood of the martyrs, the pope is referred to as "holy father", a name used for God, he is called another christ on earth, the colours, yes, devouring widows homes? Yes, after the world war the rcc was short of money, so purgatory and "masses" for the dead were promoted, a great money-making invention..
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 You are confusing the Church Christ put on earth with the corruption of mankind. Protestantism is not "drunk with the blood of martyrs? Do you not know your English history? Check out King Henry the VIII et al.
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. That does not make him Jesus Christ. Go to Matt 16:19. His is given the keys of the kingdom. To understand what Jesus is doing, go to Isaiah 22:22. The person who holds the keys of the kingdom is NOT the King.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Wrong. Again, you are confusing catholicism with Biblical Christianity. Come on, the pope IS called another Christ on earth! "we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for "the Lord Pope", the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called "sweet Christ on earth".Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation VITA CONSECRATA.March 25, 1996.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
if the pope is not to be married and they say peter was the first pope then this is wrong because jesus never said to peter you are the pope, jesus would not use the pope as a leader, jesus said do not call anyone on earth your father and do not have leaders for one is your leader the christ, and besides peter was married and thats a fact so he was no pope, and jesus would ever use the pope to lead anyone as he tells lies, the pope now says you cant say jehovah, pope is evil
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford Peter was never the first pope. There is no evidence for the Papacy from Peter himself. The first "pope" was emperor Constantine.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 FAMOUS BENEDICTINE CANONIST: "The pope can do all things God can do." - Nicolaus de Tudeschis [1386-1445], "Commentaria" (lvi, 34). "The twentieth century was one of the most crucial in human history, with its tragic and cruel events culminating in the assassination attempt on the sweet Christ on earth" Catholic Information Network.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 "Protestantism is not "drunk with the blood of martyrs? " Here we go again. This is typical catholic behavior. Rather than admitting the atrocities and bloodshed it has committed, you try to divert attention away.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 I did not divert attention. I tried to open your eyes. I admitted the corruption of mankind. That is not the fault of Jesus Christ. That is the fault of man. And if you are familiar with the Bible, you are aware that those who lead the flock will be subjected to a much harsher punishment that the rest of us...
The Catholic Church is not a museum of saints but a hospital for sinners. Jesus never promised the perfection of man, but of His teachings.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Pope Nicholas assumed the title of God. His words are:—‘I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do . . .
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 ...Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God. WHAT CAN YOU MAKE ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be ABOVE ALL GODS. Wherefore, no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.’ See Decret. Par Distinct 96 Ch. 7 Edit Lugd. 1661.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 You are referring to "infallibility." You clearly don't understand what it is. First of all "infallibility" or speaking "ex cathedra" does not mean that the man, the Pope, is an impeccable person. As a man, the Pope can have any opinion he wants on any topic, right or wrong, just like you and I. Ex cathedra is regarding the TEACHINGS of the church re: FAITH AND MORALS only. This comes from a promise Christ made (continued)
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 No, i am not. I am referring to this idiot referring to himself as god! How many "Ex cathedra" ( man, i wished they would use a common language like english! ) statements have been made? I know of two, maybe three.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Ex Cathedra - is the promise by Christ to be with his church always (Matt 28:20). Also John 14:16-17 - that Jesus made a promise to his Apostles (Bishops) that he would ask God for the Holy Spirit to abide with them forever (AND THEIR SUCCESSORS, obviously, if Jesus was saying forever). See John 14:26. The Holy Spirit will teach alll things AND WATCH OVER THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS' CHURCH. (Continued)
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 No, it was promised to the APOSTLES.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 NOW YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF: Why have the PROTESTANT RELIGIONS SPLINTERED INTO 30,000 DIFFERENT CHURCHES IN 400 YEARS, AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH has remained ONE CHURCH FOR 2000 YEARS? The core teachings of the Catholic Church have remained the same for 2000 years. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD? If you want to know why the ground splits under the Protestant churches, read OT Numbers 16. Aren't these people are rebelling against the priesthood just like Protestants?
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 ahh, the mystical 33,000. Not one person has ever given me proof or even a list of these sects. Now, what about the sects within catholicism? Again, you are a hypocrite when you fail to acknowledge there are sects and "denominations" within catholicism. You class anything that is not catholicism as a "denomination" or "protestantism". Please define "Protestant"
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH has remained ONE CHURCH FOR 2000 YEARS?" What about the Community of the Lady of All Nations, the Palmarian Catholic Church, the Philippine Independent Church, the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, the Free Catholic Church, the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God,
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 how can a Biblical Christian rebel against something that Christ did away with/fulfilled in the NT? Show me a sacrificial priesthood in the NT, please.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 A study of the New Testament reveals that all Christians are priests. Peter said, "Be you yourselves as living stones, built thereon into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5). Thus, all Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.There is not a man or group of men on earth who can offer unto God spiritual sacrifices for others.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 The Bible you use is taken from the original Latin Vulgate from 400 AD, then changed to match the philosophies of the men of the Reformation. This was done in the 16th C. You are confusing 2000 years of Christianity with Protestantism which has only been in existence approx 400 years. You need to learn the history of Christianity. It is called Catholicism. You are neglecting 1500 years of Christianity as if it didn't exist.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Wrong, my friend. My Bible came through the Traditional Text Line, not the Alexandria text line where yours did. You are confusing true Biblical Christianity with catholicism.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 And somehow popped up with the same Chapter and verse lines all in the same order. Catholicism IS biblical Christianity. You just are lacking the knowledge.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 There are so many verses in scripture that contradict RCC theology Rom 4:5 utterly condemns the System of salvation by masses penance priests etc, bible teaches that salvation is gift of God not of works & this gift is freely given by God to those who trust in the merits of Christ's finished work on Calvary, the RCC SYSTEM is a demonic counterfeit to keep the lost RCs on the broad road to hell
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128 It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 The Catholic Church is the first Christian church started by Christ. The Bishops and Priests were teaching orally at first and there were few that could read and write. People learned through oral tradition. See 2 Thess. 2:14 "hold to the traditions you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." YES, the "Deposit of Faith" which were the first writings were finished by John by the end of the 1st C. Approx 22 books of the NT were in use. (continued),
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 (continued) You misunderstand the reason the "Bible" (a term coined by Jerome) was needed by the Church. There are many, many writings by the 4th C. Many were respected. Some were forgeries (the Gnostic gospels from the 2nd to 4th C). Confusion made it necessary to gather the original writings of the Apostles, including letters. Of the respected writings that did not make it into the Bible, the Catholic Church does recommend reading them. (continued)
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 You should become familiar with all the writings of the "Fathers of the Church." These are those people from the 1st and 2nd C who studied with the original Apostles and became priests and Bishops themselves. Many of their writings exist. You can see them discussing what oils should be used and various questions they took to the Church. You will better understand the beginnings of Christianity.
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Yes, it is proven and common knowledge that the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. This is called history. You are unlearned. Suggest becoming familiar with 2 Peter 3:16.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Rubbish. Versions of the NT in other languages available early in Christianity:
Peshitta Version AD 150 The Italic Bible AD 157 The Waldensian AD 120 & onwards Gallic Bible (Southern France) AD177 Gothic Bible AD 330-350 Old Syriac Bible AD 400 Armenian Bible AD 400 (There are 1244 copies of this version still in existence.) Palestinian Syriac AD 450
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 And compare all of these to the one you are reading.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, "A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher...He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). ...
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 You, again, are ignorant of Christianity. In the 1st C most were married, but those who chose to follow in the footsteps of Christ chose not to? And after their wives died, they did not remarry. This is the same today for Anglican (married) priests who convert to Catholicism. They are married Catholic priests that do not marry again if their wives die. Are you unaware that Deacons, like those in Acts 6, are married with children?
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 ...The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says "he must be married." Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 It is not that the Catholic Church does not "ALLOW" a priest or bishop to marry. They have a calling to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Read Matt 19:12. Jesus himself describes giving up marriage and children as difficult by saying "He that can take, let him take it."
This is a choice the clergy makes. They are not forced to. They choose the life. And if they want priestly duties and marriage and children, they can be Deacons for Stephen in Acts 6:2.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 its a choice the "clergy" make? So a catholic priest ( btw: where are priests in the NT? ) can chose to be married or not?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128
what about pergator,praying to images of mary and praying to her to interceed when jesus said nobody comes to the father EXCEPT THROUGH ME,where does it say we should use images and crosses in the bible,if the cathilic church is from god why do they interfere in polotics and burn bible translaters alive at the stake, like william tyndale, no this catholic church is satans tool to mislead as she is bablyon the great whore who is soon to be destroyed by the god they claim to worship
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 The term "pope" is a term if endearment by 2nd C Italians for "pappa". The Apostles were also called Bishops. Traditionally, we refer to the Apostles as just that, to differentiate them from those who became bishops after them. See Acts 1:20 "let his bishopric another man take" when they named Matthais as the replacement of Judas, who killed himself. Titus also became a Bishop. The Pope's actual title is "Bishop of Rome."
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Matthew 28:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Are you purposefully misquoting the verses or have you not read the Bible? READ THE VERSES BEFORE AND AFTER: Matt 23:10 "And be ye called "TEACHER" for one is your teacher, Christ."
The verses are not saying not to call anyone "FATHER" or "TEACHER." You can call your own father 'father' and your teachers 'teacher.' There are MANY examples in the Bible where one gives respect to their spiritual teacher by calling them "Father." Start with 1 Cor 4:15-16.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Funny you should say that. How about YOU reading the verses BEFORE and AFTER Matthew 16:18 ! HYPOCRITE! Now, in YOUR opinion, what does matt23:10 mean?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Hypocrite? OK, the verses before and after Matt 16:18:
Matt 16:17 - "And Jesus answered and said: Blessed art thou Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven."
Matt 16:19 - "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
HOW AM I A HYPOCRITE FROM THESE?
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Oops, i meant Matt 16:15-Matt16:20. Catholics use the one passage in Matt16:18 and ignore the CONVERSATION, which when read in context clearly reveals that Christ is referring to HIMSELF as the rock, and this ties in with other references to Christ being the rock, the cornerstone. etc. Why i say hypocrite is that you tell me to read entire passages, yet you guys don't
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Simple, WHAT MATT 23:10 MEANS IS THIS:
Our Father in Heaven is incomparably more to be regarded than any father on earth and no master (teacher) to be followed who would lead us away from Christ. This doesn't mean we cannot have due respect for our parents and teachers or SPIRITUAL FATHERS.
If you don't know how spiritual fathers are called "Father" ALL THROUGH the Bible, you haven't read the Bible.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 You are not getting it, my friend. God says not to refer to people on earth as a spiritual father because we only have one, Himself.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
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@charis128 " to be followed who would lead us away from Christ.". Interesting. Your priests lead you away from Christ to pray to mary and other dead people. Nowhere is this commanded in the Bible. We are told to pray only to God.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 You have asked many questions, perhaps too many to answer here. You may send me a personal note if you would like more detailed answers. We ask for the intercession of Mary and the Saints because of verses like 1 Tim 2:1 "therefore I desire supplications, prayers and intercessions be made for all men..." Since we believe the Saints are in the body of Christ after death as well as in this life was ask them to pray for us - just like you would ask those alive to pray for you.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Yes, we may pray for eachother. We are forbidden from contacting or conversing with dead people in Deut. Show me ONCE instance where the apostles when through dead people. Show me just ONE scripture that says to pray to anyone OTHER than God?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
do you know why god gave this law? in deut 18v10
its because when they contact the so called dead, they are being tricked bt satan as the soul dies and there are none alive, they can even speak the same as the person who died telling you they are alive and well, whereas god says they are not alive anywhere,dont be fooled by false religious lies, the dead are not alive in heaven or anywhere else, satan is behind false religions such as the catholic church is one of them
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
you are 100% correct jesus said these words
OUR Father NOT MARY or the saints in heaven hallowed be thy name, this name is not jesus but jehovah, jesus is here telling you to pray to jehovah in heaven, the pope tells you not to use that name, so he is gods enemy and god has nothing to do with the cathokic church as he has marked it for destruction at the hands of the UN and all the world governments will soon wipe out false reliogiojn and destroy and burn every church
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford Thank you my friend. Even though we disagree on many things and will debate and disagree with eachother for as long as we are alive on this earth, this shows there are still things we CAN agree on.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 For more info re: Saints: they are the "spirits of the just made perfect" and in heaven mentioned in Heb 12:23. That these spirits are in heaven awaiting the 2nd coming is referred to in Ecc 12:7 "and the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it." And 2 Cor 5:8 "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." After the 2nd coming, we believe we unite with our perfected bodies.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Wrong. According to the Word of God, all Christians are "saints" and are priests.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Of course we are. But you forget some verses.
Rom 13:6-7 "For therefore also you pay tribute. For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. Render therefore to all men their dues. Tribute, to whom tribute is due...honor to whom honor is due." So we add a capital "S" and call them Saints. We ask them to pray for us because they are in the body of Christ per 1 Tim 2:1.
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
there are only 144,000 saints and these are joint heirs with christ and make up the kingdom of god with jesus being the king, the 144,000 are kings and priests,the rest of manking live on the earth that has been mad einto a paradise by gods kingdom in the hands of jesus and his associate kings and priests which form the kingdom, so not all are preists, and for clergy to call themselves priests is wrong as there are only 144,000 and these are not on the earth but in heaven
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Regarding your questions about relics, see the story of Elisha's bones (in the original Bible at 4 Kings 13:20-21). Your Bible was changed during the Protestant Reformation. This story would probably be in your 2 Kings 13. See also Acts 19:11-12 and the story of the handkerchiefs.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 "My" Bible? Rubbish. Like i said, your councils mearly decided what IT would use as "The Bible". This does not make it so. The Christian church merely recognizes the Word of God (John 10:27). The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles. It does not rest in the declaration of the Catholic Church.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 To understand the roles of bishops versus priests, you need to understand the original Greek words: epikopoi (bishops) and presbuteroi (priests). You should also become aware of Deacons from Acts 6:2 (the world "serve" is Diakonos) and where we get the word Deacon. To undestand the special calling of the priests and bishops and nuns refer to Matt 19:12 and 2 Cor 7.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 But Christ did not speak Greek, did He?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Christ did speak Greek and quoted the Old Testament which was from the Septuagint - the Greek text was finished in 132 BC. Greek in the 1st C was the common language, as English is today. Only Matthew was written in Aramaic. Jesus also spoke in Hebrew, as in the temple.
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 I hope some of these answers help you on your journey. Do understand that your Bible was changed from the original so you will be missing an understanding of many things. God bless...
charis128 1 year ago
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@charis128 the early church as described in the NT did the following: shared all things in common, relationships, support missionaries/ministers, teaching & preaching, praying, worshiping, reading of scripture, evangelism, fostering spiritual gifts. No where does the NT dictate fancy buildings, robes, repetitive prayer, a priesthood, Mary worship, sectarianism, or any order of service, etc.. all these are man made traditions added on.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Interesting. Please point me towards scripture thats talks about these things. I can't seem to find anything that says there is a waiting place for us to cleanse ourselves after we die. Also, if I do all the indulgences BEFORE I die, do I still go to purgatory and for how long? I can't find that in scripture either. Thanks
ShuffleUpTv 1 year ago
@ShuffleUpTv They can't, because there is no scripture that justifies the idea of "purgatory", yet there are many that prove there is no such place.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
ALSO please note that when jesus died he did not go to a place where the demons live called HELL,hell is the grave and jesus went there, if he were alive then that would mean the sacrifice jesus made was not valid because he had to die as a man once for all time, never to come back as a man, if he did come back as a man he would be taking back what he gave up, his perfect life, jesus really died and was not alive in hell for three days, to show this is true read 1 PETER 3V18
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford You seem to like your own voice. Where did I say that Christ went to hell?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
1 PETER 3v18 Christ died ONCE FOR ALL TIME concerning sins---that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being MADE ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT In this state (SPIRIT STATE) also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison(THE DEMONS) who had once been disobedient, NOW check 2Peter 2:4
if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness
THIS IS NOT HELL
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford The spirits in prison are not DEMONS. The Demons were in Hell.
2 Peter 2:4 - HOW IS THIS NOT HELL? It says "lower hell unto torments"??
charis128 1 year ago
@judgerutherford 1 Peter 4:6 is NOT referring to DEMONS. Does this sound like verbiage to demons?
1 Peter 4:6 - "preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may LIVE ACCORDING TO GOD, IN THE SPIRIT?
THIS IS IN NO WAY A VERSE DIRECTED TO DEMONS.
charis128 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
So to sum up jesus died and went to hades,sheol,hell,the pit,THE GRAVE for three days JONAH 2 v 2 Out of the belly of She´ol I cried NKJV
Out of the belly of hell I cried KJV
I called to you from the world of the dead FOOTNOTE SHEOL (New Living Translation )
From the depths of the grave I called (NIV)
I cried out of the belly of hell (DOUAY)
As we can see, hell,sheol,the grave are all the same place
A QUESTION for you, was it a blazing hell of fire in the belly of that whale
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford NO YOU ARE INCORRECT. REFER TO STRONG'S CONCORDANCE:
JONAH 2:2 IN ENGLISH IS 'HELL' - THE ACTUAL WORD REFERS TO ORCUS OR HADES (WHICH IS SHEOL)
2 PETER 2:4 - THE WORD 'HELL' - THE ACTUAL WORD tartaroō REFERS TO THE DEEPEST, DARKEST ABYSS OF HELL..
HELL IS NOT HADES. HADES YOU CAN GET OUT OF. HELL YOU CANNOT.
charis128 1 year ago
@ShuffleUpTv If purgatory is true then the 'catholic' Christ didn't accomplish anything on the cross, wasted his time and died for nothing. The 'catholic' Christ should have hired a pro instead of doing the job himself. The Christ of Christianity is the Pro. He got the job on the cross done right the first time. And.....He did it for free!
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
by the way jesus did not die on a cross
ACTS 5V30 AND ACTS 10V39
The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU slew, hanging him upon a TREE
And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they also did away with him by hanging him on a TREE
The word cross is not the correct word for xylon or stouros
it should be pole or stake
never cross, this is another lie from the false religious churches
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009
the question about jesus going to the grave is answered here,
in psalm 16v10 it says
For you will not leave my soul in She´ol
In other words it means YOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY BODY IN THE GRAVE
the word sheol is the same word as hades, to show this read acts where it quotes psalm 16v10 ACTS 2V27 because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des
So sheol and hades are the same place, hell is the english word for sheol and hades,which refere to mankinds common grave
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@ShuffleUpTv
the truth of the matter is you dont go anywhere when you die,the pergatory lie is there to draw you away from knowing god, as the bible says in ezekiel 18v20 THE SOUL DIES when you die as you are a soul, the soul is not something apart from you, you are the soul, look at genesis 2v7 where is says: And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man BECAME a living soul. ADAM WAS NOT GIVEN A SOUL
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@ShuffleUpTv
Dont worry you wont be going to pergatory because it does not exists, ask yourself if the soul dies how can it be tormented in hellfire or how can it do anything if its dead,there is no life after death, the only hope for the dead is the resurrection,there is not one person who has ever died alive in the spirit realm, there are those demons in this realm who make out they are the ones who have died so as to decieve you into thinking that they dont really die, god says the soul dies
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@ShuffleUpTv
indulgences are not what god agrees to these indulgences were made up by the false religions so that you could commit sins and then get away with it by paying money to the church, do you really thing god agrees to these lies?
you are decieving yourself if you think god agrees. you ask god to forgiver you not any priest or vicar, they have no power to forgive you or anyone, they are false and not doing gods will at all
judgerutherford 1 year ago
tell me in what verse of the Bible does it mention purgatory. If purgatory was Biblical wouldn't of Jesus have told the thief on the cross today I will see you in purgatory? purgatory is a pagan belief that is very much like karma with a free-be salvation pass. And also where does God give the church control over such a thing idea of delaying or speeding up the "cleansing" waiting period you speak of. and what about non catholics are they just screwed? all because we aren't catholic????????
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16 "Purgatory" is a concept mentioned in 1 Cor 3:13-17. The word purgatory came from the reference to "fire" in these verses. Your question regarding what Jesus said to the thief "I will see you in paradise" does not refer to heaven. You need to have an understanding of 1st C Judaism to understand that "paradesio" is a reference to sheol, which is "Abraham's bosom" mentioned in Luke. Heaven is different. Christ descends to this place after the crucifixion.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128 Rubbish. those verses mean nothing of the sort. If God is just to forgive us our large sins or debts, should we not be just as forgiving of smaller sins or debts against us? Paradise is where Christ descended. Purgatory doesn't sound like no paradise to me!
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@charis128
jesus said to the thief, truly i tell you TODAY,,,,,,,,,,,, you will be with me in paradise, where did jesus go when he died PARADISE?
NO because jesus was telling the thief THAT DAY.. that at a future time he will be in paradise because when the theif died he did not go anywhere but the the bible hell THE GRAVE,when jesus died he went to the same place THE GRAVE,he did NOT go to paradise, Jesus did not say i tell you,,, Today you will be in paradise, but said i tell you today....you
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford No, the verse reads as follows: Luke 23:43 - "And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee,THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in paradise."
Jesus meant was He said. You need to understand that paradeiso, Sheol and Abraham's bosom are the same place. It is not the Hell of the Damned. You don't get out of Hell. Jesus went to preach to the dead in 1 Peter 4:6 who were spirits -- read the verses.
charis128 1 year ago
@charis128
when jesus died he did not go anywhere but to the grave, the bible hell,sheol or hades, all are the same place, he did not go to hell to visit anyone, he was DEAD,paradise means eden, garden of pleasure, so when jesus said to the evildoer he would be in paradise, jesus was talking about when the earth is a paradise again an EDEN then this evildoer would be resurrected into this paradise, this evildoer was NOT alive anywhere,he is still in hades hell awaiting a resurrection
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford For me to follow what you are saying, you need to be more succinct.
YES, Jesus preached to the spirits of those in 'prison' (1 Peter