Not Under the Law?

[captaincanuck65]

(sorry my posts are always so long!)

[Torahrevival]

That does indeed make sense and thanks for posting. I have no problem with such lengthy posts when they are well thought-out like yours are. Needless to say, I disagree with you on almost every point, but it's good to have opposing views up and then people can evaluate the different perspectives and make their own minds up.

[captaincanuck65]

haha, well i fully expected you to disagree! But I would love to hear or read a full argument about with what specifically you disagree. Seriously, tear my argument apart.

[Torahrevival]

Lol! Honestly, I'm getting more and more pressed for Internet time these days so I won't be able to spend time on 'refuting' your points anytime soon. But keep an eye on my vids and I may in the longer term come back to some of these points.

[captaincanuck65]

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The Torah was never intended to be a means unto righteousness in God's eyes, but an outward reflection of the faith that was already there and a constitution for a nation (it came after the promise). Paul still agrees that you need to follow the moral law and live according to those principles not as a means to righteousness but out of love and obedience to Him (which He calls the Torah of Messiah, in other words, Messiah's filled-up Torah). Does that make sense?

[captaincanuck65]

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Jesus said in Matthew 5 that He didn't come to abolish the law/Torah, but to "fill it up" and then went on to talk about the intentions behind the actions (murder/hate, adultery/lust, taking care of your relationships with others before you give an offering to God). And I believe that Paul would agree with Him (and, more importantly, He would agree with Paul). The Torah hasn't been abolished, it has been filled up.

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[captaincanuck65]

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I don't think Paul was trying to abolish the Torah, but he recognized that as God's focus had shifted from the nation of Israel to the church (for a time) some of them just don't apply right now. Later, when God finishes with the church and switches His focus back to Israel as a nation and then sets up His theocratic kingdom on earth I think the Torah will apply again (honestly I haven't studied enough eschatology to be confident of this, but I think that's right)

con'd

[captaincanuck65]

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but I'm sure you would agree that putting people to death for their sins isn't something we should be doing today (John 8:1-11) or that we need to burn mildewy clothes any more (Lev 15:47-59). The ceremonial laws were object lessons to teach Israel principles, they pointed to and enforced the moral laws. I believe the dietary laws fit into this based on Acts 10 and especially Peter's vision juxtaposed to the salvation of a gentile.

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[captaincanuck65]

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By that, I mean that the Torah (as I see it) has three types of laws, moral, judicial, and ceremonial. The moral laws are based on God's character and apply to all people in all situations. It is always a sin to lie, murder, have idols, etc. The judicial laws were set up to govern a theocratic nation, ruled directly by God or to encourage hygiene while living in the wilderness. I'm not sure when the actual time that these laws stopped applying,

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[captaincanuck65]

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The law (Torah) was established 430 years later to the nation of Israel, but the Mosaic covenant didn't supersede the Abrahamic covenant, it simply adapted it for a time by setting up a constitution and moral guidelines for a nation. (I believe this is Paul's Argument, correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case then it makes sense to me that some of the laws from the Torah don't apply right now.

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[captaincanuck65]

Hey, it's me again,

Another thought provoking video, here are my thoughts.

If you back up in Galatians a bit you read about Abraham believing God and having it credited to him as righteousness (a quote from Gen 15:6) Paul's argument was that the Abrahamic covenant was based on that, on faith.

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[Ramohog]

The most vital part of spreading the Gospel is getting people saved. You are saved by grace through faith, and by confessing it. We are made righteous through accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and receiving the Holy Spirit. The old covenant and the Isrealites were made righteous by keeping the law. It is still important to be obedient, because there is eternal blessing on it, but the most important part is to get people saved. That was Paul's mission!

[king4him]

How do you get that? You made a crazy jump in thoughts when you went to 1 Corinthians. He said to those without Torah, without Torah, NOT BEING WITHOUT TORAH TOWARD ELOHIM, BUT UNDER TORAH OF MESSIAH. How is that teaching AGAINST Torah?

[Torahrevival]

Well, this is an analysis of Paul's belif that believers in Yahoshua are "not under Torah." This was clearly a very central idea for Paul. He used the phrase in at least three of his letters (Galatians, Romans and 1 Corinthians).

By comparing his writings with one another, it seems clear to me that to Paul, "under Torah" meant to be bound to walk in the requirements of Torah. Thus, to him, believers in Yahoshua are not required to do this.

What do you understand by "not under Torah"?

[RoelGeurtsen]

Paul was a Jew ,circumsized so he had to uphold the Torah ,as it was an everlasting covenant with Israel,Gentiles who came to believe are drafted into the seed of Abraham but are not judged by the law,However the moral codes of the Torah still stands today and faith without works is still death! Your NT is getting thinner everyday! When Jesus spoke of the Gospel as He often did,It involves some trust in the Holy Spirit,Unless You want to become muslim or mormone you have no other choice anyway!

[snipnflip]

Go Achi

Brilliant teaching You can not have two masters so people chose Yeshua son of God(Keep torah) or Paul Man of God (Live lawless)If we agree with Paul on this one then we deny most of the Hebrew scriptures that say Torah Is forever. Thanks for this word Achi

[DeeJayemet]

Great video achi

[Torahrevival]

Todah!

[SeekEmet]

i agree about Ya'acov. but why werent Adam and Eve allowed back in the garden as soon as they were obedient again?

[Torahrevival]

Yah told them they would eventualy die if they ate the fruit. In order to make sure they did die, they were prohibited from access to the tree of life which would have kept them alive.

[bhatindawalla]

It is what YHWH/Yahoshua has said that matters. If anything that we read is in direct contradiction to our Fathers saying then we reject it.

[Torahrevival]

I agree 100%

[SeekEmet]

Messiah is under Torah, it declared him absolutely righteous.

We were under Torah, it declared us as law breakers. "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." (James NOT Paul)

Being under the Law means being under what it declares you to be.

i really have to finish that response sometime soon. Expect it sometime tomorrow.

[Torahrevival]

Sounds interesting - looking forward to it!

Note abut Yacob - he didn't say that if a person breaks a commandment once, then they are law breakers for all their ENTIRE lives. No, his point was - if you are transgressing one mitvot, then you are transgressing the whole Torah - because the Torah is a unit.

It's the same as if someone is driving over the speed limit. They canot claim to be keeping the law of the land because the law of the land includes the law pertaining to the speed limit.