my only concern with this roof is the outlet on to the fascia,after 56 seconds it shows the detail and there should be a drip formed to take the water away from the fascia but the rubber stops flush and this will leak and rot the fascia,SORRY
That is unless you live in an area with a lot of trees surrounding your home/building. A simple tree branch is enough to puncture a hole into an EPDM roof, as opposed to a Tar and Gravel built-up roof which can take a hell of a lot more wear and tear than EPDM. For example, I've done multiple repairs on a local restaurants roof due to the simple reason people throw their chicken bones onto the roof. At which point, seagulls peck a hole in the roof, going for the grease stain
you might think the roof will last a life time, but the decking will fail, even though it is in ok condition in pics you should always replace when using single ply rubber, it generates a lot of heat in summer and over the years the glues in the plywood will fail and separate. At least with felt you have limestone chippings,etc. Any join of flashing in epdm will fail in time.
That is true, It's best to replace if not to cover the existing (as clean as you can get) decking with some 1/4" hard board. The chemicals in the asphalt (it looks like) do not react well with the EPDM adhesive, and will not bond properly. This is tested easily with a couple pieces of EPDM with a thin smear of hydroshield on one. Then trying to bond the two pieces of EPDM to one another, you'll find it is easily pulled apart as opposed to a cleaned EPDM surface.
That is true, It's best to replace if not to cover the existing (as clean as you can get) decking with some 1/4" hard board. The chemicals in the asphalt (it looks like) do not react well with the EPDM adhesive, and will not bond properly. This is tested easily with a couple pieces of EPDM with a thin smear of hydroshield on one. Then trying to bond the two pieces of EPDM with adhesive to one another, you'll find it is easily pulled apart as opposed to a cleaned EPDM surface.
EPDM rubber is good on most flat roofs small or large one of the benefits a small user gets is that the epdm can be laid in one sheet leaving now joints also forget the old three layer felt systems that only last 10 years EPDM rubber flat roofs should last 30 40 or 50 years
@stevewater Maybe a 80 Mi reinforced full glue down with pavers covering the entire thing and no one ever walking on it maybe just maybe there would be a chance . I'd go pvc or tpo myself
I have been laying rubber epdm roofs for about 3yrs and haven't had any problems yet.Like most roofing products the quality of the installer is paramount to the quality of the job.If the seams are rolled and covered with the covering tape their doesn't seem to be a problem to me.
London Flat Roofing is not tied to just one system, we test and train on all sorts of different systems. We find that EPDM is very good for large roofs without detail. Liquid systems are sometimes better when you have detailed work. At the moment we are training on a new liquid system that has a life expectance to match the building! Yes this could be 100 to 150 years! I will be posting more on this soon.
Don't RubberBond recommend that their rubber (Carlise-Syntec) be adhered to a new clean deck? The fabric backed EPDM was originally conceived to allow diffferent adhesives to be used to adhere the rubber to a substrate (especially foam spray adhesive) - not so you can jiggle it about after you put water base on, although you can. Firestone is adhered the same way - waterbase. Contact for upstands and edges etc as with RubberBond. Fabric backed rubber is as vulnerable to bituminous productsas FS.
It is a fact the sprit based adhesives re-activate bitumen roofs, this only becomes a problem whilst the evaporation of the base material is taking place, once cured all materials are inert.
In any case the EPDM rubber never comes into contact with any part of any substrate as it protected by the fleece.
From my understanding Firestone EPDM is glue down using contact adhesive, once contact is made you cannot pull out any creases. I think you refer to this system when you talk about the glue smell and a reaction with the old bitumen.
As a matter of interested the EPDM we use RubberBond is fleece backed, this small detail actually give a lot of help when it comes to gluing down the EPDM, think about trying to glue down the inside of a sweatshirt , the glue gets all tangled up in the fleece but at the same time allows us to be able to manipulate the rubber on the roof before a full bond is achieved.
there is a glue that is moisture cured (moisture accelerates the curing process) but a water based glue is a new one on me, ad does this water based glue have to be protected with a special black caulk (mastic).
and if this epdm is fleece backed then how have you terminated you roof as the video shows a termination bar screwed to the adjacent flat roof so the fleece would be in contact with the water on the adjacent roof.
No bead of silicon to be used on the edges of the rubberBond system; its a glued joint and a pointless process, lets think about this we overlap the joint by 50mm the entire 50mm is sealed whats the point of placing a bead of silicon to the edge the joint wont leak. Im now working with three other EPDM flat roofing suppliers not one of them wants a bead to the edge,
steve is somewhat correct for epdm to have a warranty all laps and seams must have a bead of sealent..we use black magic in the states but firestone sells thier own brand . but if a seam isn't caulked, the roof has no warrenty.
and i liked your videos, i like your funky Brittish accent. but the truth is no caulk on the seam no warrenty from the manufacturer.
i like your liquid rubber rooves we have something like that here, but i rarely use it. and i use a metal counter flash,cheerio mate!!
This bead of silicon to the edge is not something that is in the training manual. If the system relies on a 2 or 3mm bead of silicon then quite frankly that poor all joints are over lapped 50mm thats 50mm of a mistake you have to make before you get a problem, an extra 3mm is irrelevant! EPDM is good we find Kemper better and tend to use EPDM on jobs that are big and flat only.
I have some new Kemper videos up now have a look, only drawback with the kemper is the price and the smell, they make an odour less one but its take longer to go off
we at London flat roofing try and get trained in all the new products out there just to make sure we are on the ball and up to speed with all new products.
Err...EPDM glued straight onto old deck which is still covered in old bitumin etc. That won't react and gas then? More corner cutting penny pinching there then. Had you had enough when it came to the outlet detail? Looks like you were just keen to get off.
call back rate would only be because of bad labour. I have Worked on over 500 flat roofs and had zero call backs. epdm is flawless. It's all in the application my friend.
epdm might be flawless, but if you have to make a cut in the epdm (and that is on most roofs) the cut edges are sealed with a rubber to rubber glue which has to be kept away from the contact glue.
now the rubber to rubber glue perishes if water comes into contact, to prevent this they use a mastic.
now i have never seen a mastic that is going strong after 10 years let alone 20 years.
i couldn't depend on mastic to keep water out of a 20,000,000 building.
Well, you are not entirely educated ont he full process of a seam for epdm. For a Seam you use Seam tape Yes. And once that is rolled sufficiantly you lay over a Cover Tape. The cover tape covers 2.5 inches on either side of the seam. After that is rolled, you apply Black Edge Caulk. Black Edge caulk skins over but remains plyable. EPDM, when done properly is the most effective Roofing system. But as I said, you have to know how to do it. EPDM does not suck, Butchers of epdm Suck. :)
We use carlisle EPDM and the joint are exactly the way you explain, EPDM is a very good roofing material we have laid about 10,000 m2 and never had a problem. Like all materials the weakest point is always going to be a joint, take sheet steel welded to the hull of a ship, when theirs going to be a problem it going to be on a weld.
i am a fully qualified installer of prelasti epdm, and i do know that epdm is a great product if all the seems are vulcanised on-site but if you have to use the Black Edge Caulk then the whole system is dependant on the Black Edge Caulk and that is a no no.
to have the product vulcanised on site is a very costly alternative but is the only way you are completely depending on epdm.
using the Black Edge Caulk in my opinion means you are relying on a mastic to hold out the water.
i take it that this tape is water penetrable, hence the mastic line to protect the tape from water, so is the system still net dependant on this wonder mastic (liquid rubber in a tube)
but do you not have to glue the corner onto the epdm, then run a 20mm bead of mastic "liquid rubber" to keep out the water.
there is a new system where you can heat weld the flashing details to the epdm but i just don't like the way epdm ripples, its ok if you are using it as a barrier for a roof garden or an upside down roof where you don't see the epdm but as a complete roof its not recommended by me.
I dont know how good the roofing is but HEALTH AND SAFETY is non existant LONDON ROOFING you should know better no edge protection ladder not fixed and your a surveyor?
the thing i don't like about epdm is that where you have an external corner you have to cut the membrane, then you are relying on mastic to keep the water out.
nice roof though, but a pain i the ass when you have to cut epdm.
there are way arround that, some pre glue (that you have to prime ...) corner and round piece that does the job better.... But you still suppose to put a bead of special caulk
When you cut Firestone EPDM you complete the corner detail with a piece of form flash {like soft uncured EPDM}. The area to be joined is primed with a chemical that breaks down the molecular structure of EPDM. When the Form Flash is fitted to the EPDM it is chemically bonded at the molecular level, try removing a piece that has been fitted correctly! A layer of lap sealant is applied to the outside edge of the Form flash to complete the detail.
A layer of lap sealant is put in place as the chemical you speak of is glue that perishes under water.
that is why A layer of lap sealant is used.
to protect the adhesive from water.
so the whole bloody thing is relying on a mastic "liquid rubber" sealant.
the only way to do this properly would be to vulcanise all the detail works and under extrema temperatures but this would not be cost effective so they use the mastic "liquid rubber" instead.
I dont understand ware this mastic theory came from rubberbond douse not have mastic applied to the edges. The tapes use are formed from un-vulcanised EPDM when applied using the correct primers they stay put for the lifetime of the roof
but they don't, the only way to have a perfect epdm roof is to vulcanise every seem and corner and definitely not use primers and sticky back tape or mastics, the system has to be vulcanised at such an extreme temperature that is is simply not cost affective or possible to do so for the perfect roof.
this is why epdm has such a bad name.
i would love to go and look at one of your roofs that was done say 5 years ago and you could prove me wrong but that just wont happen,
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majorgfx 1 month ago
my only concern with this roof is the outlet on to the fascia,after 56 seconds it shows the detail and there should be a drip formed to take the water away from the fascia but the rubber stops flush and this will leak and rot the fascia,SORRY
jawiddrington 8 months ago
Epdm rubber is the way forward for flat roofs without doubt
PermaroofOnline 1 year ago
@PermaroofOnline
That is unless you live in an area with a lot of trees surrounding your home/building. A simple tree branch is enough to puncture a hole into an EPDM roof, as opposed to a Tar and Gravel built-up roof which can take a hell of a lot more wear and tear than EPDM. For example, I've done multiple repairs on a local restaurants roof due to the simple reason people throw their chicken bones onto the roof. At which point, seagulls peck a hole in the roof, going for the grease stain
Glargenas 1 year ago
you might think the roof will last a life time, but the decking will fail, even though it is in ok condition in pics you should always replace when using single ply rubber, it generates a lot of heat in summer and over the years the glues in the plywood will fail and separate. At least with felt you have limestone chippings,etc. Any join of flashing in epdm will fail in time.
bigboyjonsey 1 year ago
@bigboyjonsey
That is true, It's best to replace if not to cover the existing (as clean as you can get) decking with some 1/4" hard board. The chemicals in the asphalt (it looks like) do not react well with the EPDM adhesive, and will not bond properly. This is tested easily with a couple pieces of EPDM with a thin smear of hydroshield on one. Then trying to bond the two pieces of EPDM to one another, you'll find it is easily pulled apart as opposed to a cleaned EPDM surface.
Glargenas 1 year ago
@bigboyjonsey
That is true, It's best to replace if not to cover the existing (as clean as you can get) decking with some 1/4" hard board. The chemicals in the asphalt (it looks like) do not react well with the EPDM adhesive, and will not bond properly. This is tested easily with a couple pieces of EPDM with a thin smear of hydroshield on one. Then trying to bond the two pieces of EPDM with adhesive to one another, you'll find it is easily pulled apart as opposed to a cleaned EPDM surface.
Glargenas 1 year ago
Having viewed your video, would this method be cost affective on a small suburbia extension
bobedwardschicken 2 years ago
EPDM rubber is good on most flat roofs small or large one of the benefits a small user gets is that the epdm can be laid in one sheet leaving now joints also forget the old three layer felt systems that only last 10 years EPDM rubber flat roofs should last 30 40 or 50 years
stevewater 2 years ago
@stevewater Maybe a 80 Mi reinforced full glue down with pavers covering the entire thing and no one ever walking on it maybe just maybe there would be a chance . I'd go pvc or tpo myself
Sweetdreamsprelude 1 year ago
I prefer tpo roof you can have up to 30 year Warranty
pandemic201 1 year ago
Did Beethoven invent EPDM?
filthghoul 3 years ago
Like the video. We supply this system as a diy kit
EASY130KINCOME 3 years ago 2
thank you for this very informative video (and the others)!! : )
Coppulor 3 years ago 2
I have been laying rubber epdm roofs for about 3yrs and haven't had any problems yet.Like most roofing products the quality of the installer is paramount to the quality of the job.If the seams are rolled and covered with the covering tape their doesn't seem to be a problem to me.
doshermitch 3 years ago 2
London Flat Roofing is not tied to just one system, we test and train on all sorts of different systems. We find that EPDM is very good for large roofs without detail. Liquid systems are sometimes better when you have detailed work. At the moment we are training on a new liquid system that has a life expectance to match the building! Yes this could be 100 to 150 years! I will be posting more on this soon.
stevewater 3 years ago
Don't RubberBond recommend that their rubber (Carlise-Syntec) be adhered to a new clean deck? The fabric backed EPDM was originally conceived to allow diffferent adhesives to be used to adhere the rubber to a substrate (especially foam spray adhesive) - not so you can jiggle it about after you put water base on, although you can. Firestone is adhered the same way - waterbase. Contact for upstands and edges etc as with RubberBond. Fabric backed rubber is as vulnerable to bituminous productsas FS.
Daveckj 3 years ago
It is a fact the sprit based adhesives re-activate bitumen roofs, this only becomes a problem whilst the evaporation of the base material is taking place, once cured all materials are inert.
In any case the EPDM rubber never comes into contact with any part of any substrate as it protected by the fleece.
stevewater 3 years ago
All up stands are glued down with a solvent based glues, yes the water based glue to the main deck enables you to manipulate the sheet once its down
stevewater 2 years ago
From my understanding Firestone EPDM is glue down using contact adhesive, once contact is made you cannot pull out any creases. I think you refer to this system when you talk about the glue smell and a reaction with the old bitumen.
stevewater 3 years ago
The Glue used to adhere our EPDM is water based so there will be no reaction with the residue of the old roof covering.
stevewater 3 years ago
As a matter of interested the EPDM we use RubberBond is fleece backed, this small detail actually give a lot of help when it comes to gluing down the EPDM, think about trying to glue down the inside of a sweatshirt , the glue gets all tangled up in the fleece but at the same time allows us to be able to manipulate the rubber on the roof before a full bond is achieved.
stevewater 3 years ago
Good luck with new system - lifetime guarantee sounds very contestable to me!
Daveckj 3 years ago
water based glue eh, whats this glue called?
there is a glue that is moisture cured (moisture accelerates the curing process) but a water based glue is a new one on me, ad does this water based glue have to be protected with a special black caulk (mastic).
and if this epdm is fleece backed then how have you terminated you roof as the video shows a termination bar screwed to the adjacent flat roof so the fleece would be in contact with the water on the adjacent roof.
kempouk 3 years ago
No bead of silicon to be used on the edges of the rubberBond system; its a glued joint and a pointless process, lets think about this we overlap the joint by 50mm the entire 50mm is sealed whats the point of placing a bead of silicon to the edge the joint wont leak. Im now working with three other EPDM flat roofing suppliers not one of them wants a bead to the edge,
stevewater 2 years ago
steve is somewhat correct for epdm to have a warranty all laps and seams must have a bead of sealent..we use black magic in the states but firestone sells thier own brand . but if a seam isn't caulked, the roof has no warrenty.
and i liked your videos, i like your funky Brittish accent. but the truth is no caulk on the seam no warrenty from the manufacturer.
i like your liquid rubber rooves we have something like that here, but i rarely use it. and i use a metal counter flash,cheerio mate!!
dekonfrost7 2 years ago
This bead of silicon to the edge is not something that is in the training manual. If the system relies on a 2 or 3mm bead of silicon then quite frankly that poor all joints are over lapped 50mm thats 50mm of a mistake you have to make before you get a problem, an extra 3mm is irrelevant! EPDM is good we find Kemper better and tend to use EPDM on jobs that are big and flat only.
stevewater 2 years ago
it is in the manual, and it is in the installation videos. your wrong and thats that. because i would be all too glad to tell you and everyone here.
no lap bead, no warrenty.
look it up.
dekonfrost7 2 years ago
I have some new Kemper videos up now have a look, only drawback with the kemper is the price and the smell, they make an odour less one but its take longer to go off
stevewater 2 years ago
we at London flat roofing try and get trained in all the new products out there just to make sure we are on the ball and up to speed with all new products.
stevewater 2 years ago
Err...EPDM glued straight onto old deck which is still covered in old bitumin etc. That won't react and gas then? More corner cutting penny pinching there then. Had you had enough when it came to the outlet detail? Looks like you were just keen to get off.
Daveckj 3 years ago
I make EPDM...Looked like CARLISLE fleeceback. Good job guy. I work in the plant where the fleeceback membrane is produced.
nasjr8 3 years ago 2
EPDM actually has a 50% callback rate. Its garbage.
sccrcaleb 3 years ago
call back rate would only be because of bad labour. I have Worked on over 500 flat roofs and had zero call backs. epdm is flawless. It's all in the application my friend.
xoxTATTOOSRUSxox 3 years ago
epdm might be flawless, but if you have to make a cut in the epdm (and that is on most roofs) the cut edges are sealed with a rubber to rubber glue which has to be kept away from the contact glue.
now the rubber to rubber glue perishes if water comes into contact, to prevent this they use a mastic.
now i have never seen a mastic that is going strong after 10 years let alone 20 years.
i couldn't depend on mastic to keep water out of a 20,000,000 building.
epdm sux.
kempouk 3 years ago
Well, you are not entirely educated ont he full process of a seam for epdm. For a Seam you use Seam tape Yes. And once that is rolled sufficiantly you lay over a Cover Tape. The cover tape covers 2.5 inches on either side of the seam. After that is rolled, you apply Black Edge Caulk. Black Edge caulk skins over but remains plyable. EPDM, when done properly is the most effective Roofing system. But as I said, you have to know how to do it. EPDM does not suck, Butchers of epdm Suck. :)
xoxTATTOOSRUSxox 3 years ago
We use carlisle EPDM and the joint are exactly the way you explain, EPDM is a very good roofing material we have laid about 10,000 m2 and never had a problem. Like all materials the weakest point is always going to be a joint, take sheet steel welded to the hull of a ship, when theirs going to be a problem it going to be on a weld.
stevewater 3 years ago
i am a fully qualified installer of prelasti epdm, and i do know that epdm is a great product if all the seems are vulcanised on-site but if you have to use the Black Edge Caulk then the whole system is dependant on the Black Edge Caulk and that is a no no.
to have the product vulcanised on site is a very costly alternative but is the only way you are completely depending on epdm.
using the Black Edge Caulk in my opinion means you are relying on a mastic to hold out the water.
kempouk 3 years ago
i take it that this tape is water penetrable, hence the mastic line to protect the tape from water, so is the system still net dependant on this wonder mastic (liquid rubber in a tube)
kempouk 3 years ago
Good job kid!
rnjroofingco 3 years ago
epdm is a good roof, when you cut corners all you need is some form flashing witch is stronger then that 045 membrane he using
ingelside 3 years ago
but do you not have to glue the corner onto the epdm, then run a 20mm bead of mastic "liquid rubber" to keep out the water.
there is a new system where you can heat weld the flashing details to the epdm but i just don't like the way epdm ripples, its ok if you are using it as a barrier for a roof garden or an upside down roof where you don't see the epdm but as a complete roof its not recommended by me.
kempouk 3 years ago
I dont know how good the roofing is but HEALTH AND SAFETY is non existant LONDON ROOFING you should know better no edge protection ladder not fixed and your a surveyor?
dodgydave11 3 years ago
the thing i don't like about epdm is that where you have an external corner you have to cut the membrane, then you are relying on mastic to keep the water out.
nice roof though, but a pain i the ass when you have to cut epdm.
kempouk 3 years ago 2
there are way arround that, some pre glue (that you have to prime ...) corner and round piece that does the job better.... But you still suppose to put a bead of special caulk
skylark3D 3 years ago
When you cut Firestone EPDM you complete the corner detail with a piece of form flash {like soft uncured EPDM}. The area to be joined is primed with a chemical that breaks down the molecular structure of EPDM. When the Form Flash is fitted to the EPDM it is chemically bonded at the molecular level, try removing a piece that has been fitted correctly! A layer of lap sealant is applied to the outside edge of the Form flash to complete the detail.
ckks2008 2 years ago
A layer of lap sealant is put in place as the chemical you speak of is glue that perishes under water.
that is why A layer of lap sealant is used.
to protect the adhesive from water.
so the whole bloody thing is relying on a mastic "liquid rubber" sealant.
the only way to do this properly would be to vulcanise all the detail works and under extrema temperatures but this would not be cost effective so they use the mastic "liquid rubber" instead.
this chemical you speak of is glue lol.
kempouk 2 years ago
I dont understand ware this mastic theory came from rubberbond douse not have mastic applied to the edges. The tapes use are formed from un-vulcanised EPDM when applied using the correct primers they stay put for the lifetime of the roof
stevewater 2 years ago
but they don't, the only way to have a perfect epdm roof is to vulcanise every seem and corner and definitely not use primers and sticky back tape or mastics, the system has to be vulcanised at such an extreme temperature that is is simply not cost affective or possible to do so for the perfect roof.
this is why epdm has such a bad name.
i would love to go and look at one of your roofs that was done say 5 years ago and you could prove me wrong but that just wont happen,
kempouk 2 years ago