I guess none of you know what it is like to live in the middle of a war.the fear,despair and you live not only day by day but minute by minute.These people wanted to escape from this and start a new .They were never given the chance to ever land on a foreign shore and declare themselves refugee's.These people were fleeing the advancing soviet forces.All Germans feared the Soviets barbaric forces .you could never imagine from your computer chair what war is really like .........
Like I said, every time you fools spew this nonsense I will be here to stop you. Everyone coming to this video, ingore these trolls. They call everyone who disagrees with them a Nazi, a Hitler-lover, etc. They are just looking for attention. This is all they got going on in their miserable lives. They are here making fun of the Gustloff tragedy and dishonoring the dead. Do the right thing and pay their filth no heed.
The only troll here is Ultimation100, & like everything he tries to mislead people on, it is all very easy to see through by doing your own searches for the truth. In this case simply go to Ulti's hate page here on youtube. You can see for yourself what kind of person he is.
He is a Neo Nazi preaching Nazi revision of the war. Our friend here simply asks everyone to "trust" him on his word.
I am asking that you go and look up the truth for yourself :)
CONT... they could clearly see on the ship and they torpedoed her. This was in broad daylight and the ship was clearly marked as a Hospital ship.
This happened on November 7 1941 in the Black Sea. But I bet you will just say that the victims are all burning in hell because they were Russians right?
Wow, this debate is still going on? Ulti-Nazi is still spewing shite lies here? Well then, since he makes great claims about being a History Teacher and an expert on War Crimes let's test him shall we?
Ever hear of the "Armenia" there Toodles? Look it up. Now this was a WAR CRIME! The ship was clearly marked as a Hospital ship, she was actually on a Humanitarian mission, carrying mostly civilians and only wounded soldiers. 7,000 died when the Nazi bomber pilots ignored the Hospital markings...
@hitmann2300 I am not denying Hiroshima and the Armenia, those were also tragedies and war crimes, but that still does not excuse what happened to the WIlhelm Gustloff. One evil does not excuse another. So, what else do you have to throw at me? Because seriously your last comment didn't even come close.
Here is the truth, the Wilhelm Gustloff was on a MERCY mission transporting REFUGEES so they could escape the war. Marinesko knowingly butchered over 9000 innocent lives, and now over 70 years later you are here pretending nothing went wrong. Please, get a life and stop defacing history. Every time you spew this crap I'll be here to clean your mess up and set things right.
@Ultimaton100 LOLAll anyone has to do is do a search for "Operation Hannibal" Get over yourself you Socialist queer. You do not even have the guts to leave up any comments on your worthless Troll channel here on Youtube that disagree with your twisted views on the US. You sign off with "For God and Country" and yet have never served your country. You are a spineless little shaved head Nazi.
The Gustloff was a Valid target of War, and this is admitted to by Heinz Schon, who served on the ship...
@Chuckles2979 Operation Hannibal was to evacuate military personel AND civilians. Also, please stay off my channel. I thought I saw a slime trail over it, that was you I take it? My views on my country are as correct and patriotic as one gets. Hardly twisted in any way. I say for God and Country because I love God and America. I serve my country every time I volunteer, help someone in need, and wave the flag with pride. A patriotic American doesn't really fit the description of a Nazi.
@Ultimaton100 You know nothing about serving this country. Your "vision" for the US is to turn it into a National Socialist, WELFARE state.
As an active duty Veteran serving the USA, I can say this to you, Your kind of "patriotism" only spits on the graves of my fallen brothers in arms who have made the ultimate sacrifice to give you the freedoms you deny others and belittle with your hate. You have no concept of what the phrase for "God and Country" even means, nor what a TRUE patriot is.
@Ultimaton100 LOL And wait a minute here. Now you are saying Hannibal was both to rescue military and civilians? But did you not say a few comments back that it was just to rescue refugees? By your own admission here, you support everything I have said and damn your own comments. With Hannibal being both a military and civilian OP, it still applies, that, the Gustloff, painted in Grey, unmarked, and armed, along with carrying military personnel made the ship a VALID target of WAR.
@Ultimaton100 Cont: And Schone survived the sinking. I think he knows far more about the Gustloff and her mission then you do AdolfCheeks
Hannibal was a military Op. that civis pushed themselves into. Even Donitz got pissed and ended up ordering that civis were to be shot! Military personnel were to have PRIORITY. Even after your buddy's death. Donitz initially was doing his best to keep the war going and this is why Hannibal stayed in operation right up to the end of the war.
@Chuckles2979 Schone is a tired old man so weary of conflict the poor man will say anything at this point. Sorry, but once again Hannibal was a Humanitarian mission, for the most part. Again you call me Hitler's buddy. Please explain? Hitler demonzied entire peoples, ordered mass-genocide, and told lie after lie. Sorry pal, but it seems you are more like his buddy than me. Don't lecture me about history. I doubt you have ever been to school.
@Ultimaton100 Again with the lies here. Heinz Schon has written three books, two on the Gustloff sinking and a third on Operation Hannibal. He has ALWAYS stated that the sinking was simply a part of the war. He is considered, by REAL HISTORIANS, as the difinitive EXPERT on the Gustloff tragedy.
Only a NEO-NAZI like yourself would make such a statement. It's the same kind of silly immature argument "your Friends" make to deny the Holocaust....
@Ultimaton100 "So and so is simply saying what the Jews want everyone to hear!" This sounds exactly like your own argument Goebbels.
The only people bringing up the Gustloff as a war crime are mostly revisionist Neo-Nazis and ultra extreme Right Nazi supporters as Gunter Grass, another German author who used the Gustloff as a backdrop to his book, "Crabwalk" discussed with the New York Times. Now background. Grass was born in Danzig, he lived through the war, and was a child soldier.....
@Ultimaton100 Cont 2: and in late 1944, at the age of 17 he ended up a tank gunner in the 10th SS Panzer division. Now here is a guy you might think would support YOUR views on the Gustloff. He doesnt! In his interview he states..."One of the many reasons I wrote Crabwalk was to take the subject away from the extreme Right...They said the tragedy of the Gustloff was a WAR CRIME. IT WASN'T. It was terrible, BUT IT WAS A RESULT OF WAR, a terrible result of war." All the survivors agree with him.
You call me a Neo-Nazi, Goebbels, this Toodles crap, and now even Adolf's lover. Why? Because you are too immature, too stubborn, and honestly not right in the head enough to see how vile and rediculous you are being. Do you not see what you are doing? You are revealing your true colors for the entire internet to see. Everyone can see just how much of a psycopath you really are.
@Ultimaton100 You keep saying I am avoiding the subject, yet you cant answer a simple question, "Why is it that we dont see you crying in comments on any Hiroshima videos about Tibbets being a war criminal?" You spend so much time here and on other Gustloff videos crying about Marinesko. Yet again, 9500 deaths vs 160,000 in one attack. Who is more guilty? One has to wonder, were you raped by a Russian as a child? It would explain both your sexual orientation now and your anger at the Russians.
@Chuckles2979 I'm not defending the victims of Hiroshima because there aren't scum like you saying they deserved it. No, your saying the victims of the Gustloff deserved it, so thats why I'm defending them and not Hiroshima. It does not matter who was more guilty, BOTH were wrong. I don't hate Russians in general, I hate the evils they committed agianst Germany out of bloodlust, horrible actions you continue to defend. Also, keep your crude comments to yourself.
@Ultimaton100 There are plenty who say the people of Hiroshima deserved it. Which is why I brought it up. You are such a liar, You spend so much time running around every Gustloff vid to cry about the Russians but you overlook the real war crimes.
The Gustloff was an ACT of WAR, a tragic act of war, but simply one of many. Marinesko did not know who or what was on the ship.
Tibbets knew FULL WELL he was bombing a city & therefore WOMEN & CHILDREN.
@BERNTRR Not at all. His problems had to do with his drinking and womanizing, which is what cost him getting the "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal in his lifetime.
Remember Marinesko also sank the Steuben during the same patrol which was filled mostly with Soldiers, and the loss of life was another 5,000 Germans sent to their graves.
@BERNTRR Do yourself a favor and stop speculating and assuming and do a bit of reading and study.
He was a womanizer and party animal BEFORE this mission. He actually failed to report to his sub on the day he was to have sortied, which had him in trouble with his superiors. If he became depressed about anything, it was that the Naval staff cheated him out of the medals and promotions he deserved.
In the Russian's defense, this was an armed ship, it was carrying troops, and Russia was at war. Plus it happened in total darkness; they could have not known it had 7000 civilians onboard. Blame the Germans for putting civilians on a warship.
@veryslyfox The Russians had intercepted communications and knew fully about the Gustloff's mission. Don't be fooled, they knew what they were doing. And it was 9000 civilains on board. So yes, I do blame the Russians for knowingly torpedoing a ship of refugees. Seriously this tragedy just screams war crime.
@veryslyfox These are truths that our Neo-Nazi friend Ultimation wants to ignore. His own site is just a place to spout National Socialist ideology. All the Russians knew during Germany's Operation Hannibal is that the Germans were doing everything they could to get soldiers out of the encirclement of Eastern Prussia. IT was first and foremost, a MILITARY operation. The Gustloff's PRIMARY mission was to bring it's compliment of 1,000+ U-boat cadets to Kiel for active service.
You know what Chuckles? You really disgust me. Enough said. Thankfully most people who watch this video know it was a crime against humanity and not something to paint as all fine and dandy.
@Ultimaton100 Get over it Goebbels. It was simply an part of the war, NOT a war crime.
You cry so much over this, yet I dont see you demanding that Paul Tiibbets' name be dragged through the mud for bombing Hiroshima. Unlike Marinesko who only saw a ship in the night, Tibbets KNOWINGLY dropped an ATOM BOMB on CIVILIANS. Let's see here, you cry over 9500 Nazi's but say nothing about 90,000 to over 160,000 Japanese who died from a single bomb!?? You really disgust me there Toodles.
@Chuckles2979 One war crime does not excuse another. Hiroshima was a tragedy, but this video is about the Gustloff, so stop trying to dodge the subject like a coward. Marinesko knew damn well the ship was full of civilians. He knew what he was doing, and he is burning in Hell because of it. By all definitions it was a war crime, and nothing you say will ever change that. And quit calling me a nazi when it is you denying a war crime. Seriously, this crap is not working for you.
@Ultimaton100 LOL And you were most probably there right Goebbels? Right there in the Fuehrer Bunker with your gay lover Adolf.
The only person avoiding and dodging the subject is YOU. I LOVE how you now say "Hiroshima was a tragedy" It isnt a War Crime in your book eh? Yet by your definition, and your reasoning about the criminal KNOWINGLY killing innocents, Tibbets is FAR MORE Guilty then Marinesko, Cities have civilians in them! 80,000 to 160,000 dead is far more to cry about then 9500.
There were many horriric maritime disasters in world war two, most of them happened to the germans it seems. in the crimean peninsula in early 1943, the red armys advanced trapped the german 17th army in the crimean peninsula, the germans tried to evacuate their troops by sea to Romania. And many ships were sunk, some of them like in the ship Totila in which over five thousand germans drowned, there were many other sinkins with thousands of deaths, most people don't know this history of WW2.
@bombarderoazul War is a bitch aint it? Too bad the Nazi's did not think of that when they started the war. And of course, it all depends on what point in the war you are talking about. Sure, by 1943 the germans were getting the short end of the stick. But before that time it was the Western allies, and Russia that suffered, and Poland, Holland, and Belgium before that. Ask the Poles how they feel about German suffering in WW2, they will tell you the Nazi's deserved more then they got!
Heinz Schon pretty much says exactly the same thing in his interview, do a youtube search 4 "Last Voyage Of The Wilhelm Gustloff 3/3" and watch at 13:17 into it, and you can see Schon's comments on whether or not the Gustloff was a "valid" target. And he should know! He was on the ship when it sank!
Sure, the Gustloff sinking was a tragedy, but war as whole is tragic! People need to remember that.
Yes,it is Christmas.But it is ALWAYS right time to remind some inhuman USA militaries that,in 2011,still try to justify a real CRIME AGAINST THE HUMANITY based in empty and false arguments that there have RULES in everything in this world,including about the"right in to do the war under certain circumstances"(IUS BELLI).To those beasts in human form,through more than 6000 germ CHILDREN into the bottom from the Baltic was a VALID MILITAY TARGET.Bastards without shame in their fuck'in duty faces
@GC7885 LOL Again, hindsight is a wonderful thing aint it.? AT THE TIME, on the night of the sinking, all the sub commander knew was that he had a valid, legal military target in his attack scope sight. He had no idea who or what was on it. Grow the fuck up and stop playing Monday morning quarterback.
So...QUID JURIS?Obviously that Commandant Marinesko would have faced a Criminal International Court and answer about his criminal acts,after the end of WWII.But we know that who won the war was Stalin and the USSR,(and not all the Allieds as the West propaganda spreaded across the decades).It was impossible to the International Community to bring Stalin and Marinesko in a International Court (if no,he should also has answered by many other crimes,mostly those done by Red Army once in Germany).
...from the rules of the "JUS BELLI" (the right in to do the war under some circumstances).The JB is himself part of the "Public International Law".And it was a "Crime against the Humanity" in attention the specific nature of the large majority of the victims: the CHILDREN!!! (...more than 7000...).They was german CHILDREN, not Nazi germans soldiers or marines.And they were in that tragic night under the protection of a RESCUE BOAT commandant, doesn't matter under what flag it were sailing !!!
...against the rules of the "JUS BELLI" (the right in to do the war under some circumstances...)The JB is himself part of the "Public International Law".And it was a "Crime against the Humanity" in attention the specific nature from the large majority of the victims: THE CHILDREN!!!(About 7000...).They was german children,and not nazi german soldiers or marines!Theirs innocent lives were taken by an ambitious and drunk Soviet commandant only by get the vain "human glory" to become Hero of USSR .
There have here a lot of information and point the vu that lacks in traditional sources of military History from the WWII.And because I'm Jurist my opinion is basically that the sink of WG wasn't only a "War crime" but more exactly a "Crime against the whole Humanity".Why?Not only attending the trip of WG in January 1945 to Finland was to rescue mostly civilians that weren't involve in war activity ("Operation Hannibal").But mainly because the USSR submarine attack to WG meant a true violation..
@WALTERBROADUS...let me congratulate yourself by so honest intellectualy was your comment answering @Ultimaton100...by opposition to some comments from several military people from the USA that has denied that the sink of WG wasn't even a "war crime", just a negigent act of war,they sais.I sincerely recommend you to read all the comments to this video from the very first one and you'll understand better the historichal context in which happened "the worst maritime tragedy ever in war times ".
@GC7885 I have no dog in this fight. I'm Ex USN And Military history is my hobby. BOTH sides in WW2 practiced UNRESTRICTED SUBWARFARE. The days of surfacing, boarding, checking papers, letting the crew take to boats & using the deck gun died in WW 1. The ship was not marked as a hospital ship. War is not pretty but The Eastern Front war played by much different rules. The Soviets kept German POW's like top fighter Ace Erich Hartmann for 10 years after the end of the war.
How does a boat carry that much people and cargo to feed. And I feel the number of people and lifeboats,And Rushing crowds,And the torpedos.....You know what actually it was just because it sank was how it sank.
Refugees and wounded were crammed into every space, the ship was heading to German controled Territory farther west
Orginally the ship was a passenger liner built for the Nazis Strength Through Joy program, after the war began it was taken over by the Kriegsmarine as a transport/hospital ship, but spent the bulk of it's service as a floating barracks for the U-Boat Corps, before being reactivated to assisst in evacuating refugees from East Prussia
@snakes3425 You might also want to add "evacuating military personnel" as well, since it is an admitted fact that she was carrying soldiers and a complete class of Naval U-boat cadets as well.
This made her, by the rules of war in place during the second world war, a Legal target of war.
@Chuckles2979 And an atrocity is an atrocity, as the bombs over Japan, KZ-camps and soforth. Its a part of a conflict and need not to be justified by rules, its military decisions - and there is always a human being taking the decisions. The "Following order"-principle was clearly outstaked during the Nürnberg-trials. Sinking a liner in the region is a valid target, but nonetheless a questionable one. As the drones in Iraq and Afghanistan often execute, killing multiple innocents.
@anneloev And being in service for the US in the mentioned conflict zones does not impress the rest of the world. My brother has served there too, and it was NOT in the name of his country. It was his job. He fought for peace and the good hope of humanity. Wilhelm Gustloffs sinking was not a part of such an idea. And its the militarys job to make the proper deciscions during their actions, not just fire at everything that moves. Its not war that kills people, its people!
@anneloev Again you are looking at this from a modern standpoint, not by how wars were fought 60 years ago. World war two was a "Total war" and if you want to point a finger at who to blame for targeting civilians, then you should point it right at Nazi Germany who started the whole mess, even before WW2 when they bombed Spanish cities like Guernica during the Spanish Civil war, They got real good at it when they bombed Warsaw to dust, then Rotterdam, Amsterdam, and then the London blitz
@Chuckles2979 Im not a child, nor childish, so don´t patronize. I see your standpoint and do not patronize you. But as you mention german bombing tactics you seem to have forgotten British airforce bombing Khabul 1919, doctrines from forming RAF "protecting the interests of the Empire by all means " from 1923 and the bombing of Berlin 1940 as the start for the Blitz...its, as you state, acts of a total war. But during the process - humanity looses due to shortsighted militarians.
@anneloev ...cont..You do have knowledge of the conflict and the hindsight of being behind the executers scope, but you lack the insight of the executioners choice. The sinking of the ship was not an issue for the soviet captain, he thought it was a valid target. But the missed the process of the identification, he fired at a non valid target, and that question never got into questioning - since it was germans who died. There were many germans who got trialed for less after war.
@anneloev Again, the Gustloff WAS a legitimate war target, even by process of identification, since she flew no red cross flags, nor was painted as a hospital ship. She was painted in Navy Grey, she had guns, and she was carrying military personnel, all of this made her a valid war target. Even Heinz Schon, a survivor of the sinking and a merchant marine cadet at the time, states these very facts. That the ship was a valid target of war.
@anneloev Also, when talking about "Identification" to what are you referring to? The ship was not marked as a humanitarian ship, like many liners of the time, she was converted for use as a "troop ship" and as such was a valid target. Painted Grey, armed with guns, and carrying military personnel. Just because she was once a passenger ship does not make her a "non-valid" target. If that were the case then Germany still has a lot to answer for, since they sank many such ships during the war.
@anneloev cont 3..All wars are brutal. But there are rules, even in war. It is not, fx, allowed to shoot down a landing plane. But how can you resist when you got one in sight? As you break the rules, all is chaos. But im not a friend of the germans during the WWII, I am glad that the allied won, but I cannot cope with the idea that its justifiable that innocent people dies in a political conflict. Its up to the militarians professionality to make proper decision, Gustloff was wronged!
@anneloev Jesus, you truly are a child. Where do you get that landing military planes are no longer valid targets? Military aircraft are targets no matter whether they are flying, taking off, landing, or sitting on the field. That has been the case since man started using aircraft as weapons. Again, all that was known about the Gustloff at the time, was that she was a military transport, and that the German military was trying to escape encirclement. That civi's got on board was THEIR choice.
@anneloev LOL What the RAF did in Iraq in the 20's, has no bearing on their conduct at the start of the WW2. When the British bombed Berlin in 1940, it was in retaliation for an act a German unit committed that was actually an accident, but the British had no way of knowing this, when a lost Luftwaffe unit dropped bombs on a suburb of London. However, the Germans had by that time already made terror bombing a part of their doctrine, so the Brits had reason to believe the bombing was intentional
@anneloev Sigh, so many silly people. It is wonderful isnt it, when you can look back 60 years later and make a judgement call on something isnt it? All of you children need to get out of your highchairs and try to think a bit more rationally. At the time, the Russian capatin only saw a ship, painted grey, not marked as a hospital ship, it had weapons on the decks, and it was a known fact the Germans were evacuating their troops from the encirclement. He had no idea who or how many were aboard..
@anneloev .. CONT: all the guy saw was a ship and all ships at that time were valid targets. If you truly wish to bitch about "Warcrimes" then you should hold every bomber pilot, from every country involved as "war criminals" because they all KNOWINGLY bombed cities whether we are talking about Warsaw, Berlin, London, Coventry, Hamburg, Cologne, Tokyo, or Hiroshima, those pilots all knew they were bombing Civilians, they knew it was not just soldiers they were killing....
@anneloev Cont part 3... This is the issue I have with those of you crying over this tragedy, and I do actually see it as tragic, but not as a war crime, and hardly as "one of the worst war crimes" as some have said here. 9500 people is hardly a rain drop in a bucket, when compared to the hundreds of thousands who died in some of the largest bombing raids of WW2, like Rotterdam, Dresden. Warsaw in 1939, the starvation of the people in Leningrad, the bombing of Berlin. Something to think about!
I may guess if it would happen with 10000 human be from the Allied countries how many movies,full of brilliant movie stars and romantic stories on board,would Holywood have been produced about the sinking...How many parades and remembering days would those countries have organized.But because they were germans,we could see here a lots of "passionates of freedom and liberty"make comments justifying their deaths!Unbelievable...in 2011!Thanks JESUS by have teach me that ALL the souls belong to GOD!
What is more sad in WG sinking is not only the lost of so massive number of innocent and so young people (...could any one of them would became if survivers of that tragic trip a great pianist, lord mayor, prime-minister, footballer, singer, writer???).What still sad and anguished so many years after is the criminal obscurity of this tragedy in Russia and the West!...I have legitimity to talk about since I'm from a neutral country in WWII.Because the victims was germans wouldn't they human be???
Germany and Russia are now good friends; the Soviet Union is now gone forever! Vladimir Putin speaks fluent German and lived in Dresden for 15 years as a KGB officer; he would have seen the aftermath of the bombings there.
Now, Germany can focus on more important issues like quality of life of its citizens, higher education, science, and health care. The country can disengage itself from the petty hatreds and ridiculous blood feuds found elsewhere.
To think the Titanic was the worst naval tragedy.. how wrong could I have been. R.I.P. to all the innocent Germans who lost their precious lives. They shall be avenged.
@EwigesEiszeit R.I.P. to all the innocent Germans who lost their precious lives. They shall be avenged.
How exactly shall they be "avenged"? Will Germany attack Russia? Last time I looked Russia had about 10,000 Nuclear Warheads and Germany had...er...let me see.... exactly 0. ZERO. Zilch. Germany=Economic Superpower and Military Dwarf.
@TheGreekoid He likely means avenged by making sure this war crime is made public knowledge, or even more so, much more so. The wolrd needs to see the horror committed against the innocents on the Wilhelm Gustloff, and the monument to the captain of S-13 needs to be demolished. I know your stance on the matter, but there really is no justifying what happened, and nothing you say will ever change that.
@Ultimaton100 The world needs to see the horror committed against the innocents on the Wilhelm Gustloff
With 6 million dead Jews, millions of Russians and Poles slaughtered, 2 Atomic bombings in Japan,a few million Chinese butchered by the Japs and a couple of million German refugees murdered at the end of WW2, the World couldnt care less about this little pleasure boat.
@TheGreekoid One war crime does not excuse another. Thankfully most people are more intelligent than you and know right from wrong. Your blind hate and ignorance does not speak for everyone on Earth. Like me, they understand sinking a refugee ship and killing over 9500 civilians is wrong. Pleasure boat my ass.
@Ultimaton100 Now let's be carful with the Words "War crime." The war was on. She was a troop ship. Thus a legit target. Would I have taken the Shot? No. But considering is about all the Russian navy did in the war. I think they were itching to sink anything German.
@WALTERBROADDUS She may have been a troop ship, but she was carrying refugees when sunk. That is by modern definition a war crime. I give presentations about this tragedy and always use that term to describe what happened.
@Ultimaton100 She was carrying BOTH refugees AND MILITARY PERSONNEL, THAT MADE HER A LEGITIMATE WAR TARGET! Get over your Nazi sympathies and accept facts.
Jesus, LOFL You really have no life outside of Nazi pamphlets and Youtube videos about a single Nazi ship sunk 60 years ago. If you truly hate war crimes so much, why are you not arguing with the Neo-Nazi's about their lies that the Holocaust never happened eh??
@Chuckles2979 So let me get this straight. Explaining the truth behind one of the worst crimes against humanity makes me a Nazi? Your not making sense, kid. I am not a Nazi, I am simply someone who is morally mature enough to know that no matter what the Germans did, what Russia did to them was no better. The only one who needs to accept the facts is you.
@Ultimaton100 You are explaining a "truth" based on hindsight, you are not explaining things from the standpoint of the moment in time, which is a very immature thing to do. As others have said, including survivors from the ship itself. She was a valid military target. Only a Nazi like yourself would continue to cry, bitch, and moan about this. At the time of her sinking, the only thing that could be seen in the attack scope was a troop transport ship, a VALID, LEGAL Target......
@Ultimaton100 LOL and I am hardly a kid punk, I've served in Iraq and Afganistan, have you ever actually served your country? Have you ever been at war? You have no understanding of what it is like to be in a conflict, and have no understanding of the emotions involved, so take my advice and stay in your own lane child. Keep your National Socialist leanings to yourself.
@WALTERBROADDUS LOL How can you even answer such a question as "Would I have taken the shot?" truthfully when you are using hindsight? You see a ship in the dark you know is that it must be an enemy ship, your nation has told you that the enemy is using ships to escape encirclement & continue the war. They are moving military equipment and troops. Honestly are you not going to take the shot? Arent you going to think about your Brother's in Arms? That they may be killed by these survivors later?
@Chuckles2979 My torps could just as been useful on a tanker or a warship. Firing could just as much alert the Germans & subject me to ASW attack. Thus I would need to value the risk vs reward.
@WALTERBROADDUS LOL Silly answer really when the germans at this time were not using tankers, remember, they were at this time compressed within their own borders. Again you are making an excuse based on Hindsight, and not the conditions at the moment. The Gustloff would have appeared to you exactly as she did to Marinesko or any other sub commander, A Large juicy target. Plain and simple. As a Navy man you must fully be aware of the many POW ships sunk by USN planes and subs in the Pacific....
@Chuckles2979 Panzers & air units still needed fuel. With railroads savaged by air, bringing fuel to a open baltic port via Sweden is not out the question. Am I using hindsight? Trying to avoid the choice vs. doing the job? Well, it is Xmas and "Snoppy vs the Red Barron" is playing on the radio.
@WALTERBROADDUS Cont.... In 1944 the Japanese loaded many ships with US POWs to send them back to Japan rather then risk the Americans freeing them, (They killed many they could not put on ships) However, these ships were not marked, and the Navy Sub captains and Naval Air Crews that found these ships in their sights had no way of knowing who was on board, all they saw were Transport ships and they were valid targets. Afterward of course many of these men were devastated to learn.....
@Chuckles2979 Torpedo Run (1958) Glen Ford & Ernest Borgnine. Yep. I saw the film & know the problem. Ford has it even worse. Wife & kid left in Manila is on the transport escorting a carrier.
@WALTERBROADDUS Cont. part 2.... what the actual cargo on board these ships was, However, AT THE TIME, they only saw these transport ships as valid Targets, flying Japanese flags. The same goes for Marinesko, he only saw a large transport ship in the dark, everything else that these kiddies want to whine about is pure assumption and BS. The Gustloff was a Legal target based on the wartime conditions AT THAT Time in the war. And if you are Honest with yourself, you would have fired on it too.
@WALTERBROADDUS It would appear you never saw the documentary on the Gustloff. The Sub's Sonar man stated that he knew the Gustloff was a twin screw vessel, He also knew that the ship was alone, so no worries about ASW, This only made the Gustloff a sub crew's dream. In fact Marinesko stayed in the area after the sinking just to wait for other German ships, The Hipper turned tail, but an ASW did not and the Russians did fire on that ship, and endured a retaliatory ASW attack and survived it :)
@TheGreekoid I see you mentioned German refugees in your little hate rant. The victims of the Wilhelm Gustloff fall into that category. They were German refugees. What, do you only care about those murdered on land?
@Ultimaton100 I see you mentioned German refugees in your little hate rant.What, do you only care about those murdered on land?
I dont "care" about any of them, whether German or otherwise.This was Total War, that means civilians as well as soldiers were considered legitimate targets.
The Gustloff tragedy is such a sad story…9500 souls at the bottom of the cold Baltic sea. It is hard to imagine that so many people died so fast. I guess only the Allied bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, & Dresden killed more faster. The music "Sleeping Sun" by Nightwish was perfect…mournful yet beautiful.
...interpreter, it was a moment in which one Nation (the U.K.) felt on hearts of all that got the honor in listen Emmanuel sing, the tragic destiny of Iraq War (in which the Uk were envolved ...).Wonderful!!!A fantastic human be,deformed and walking atipichally,without hands...could make an huge country (including all the members of the Juri!) CRY!... And I'll never forget the ONLY words that a Juri's member said when Emmanuel finished to sing :"Oh,man...what WE (he refers the UK...) did...!!!"
"X-Factor" is a tv programme that try to find new music talented people.In consequence of the Bagdad bombing, thousands of iraqui children lose their hands,arms, legs...getting disabilities for the rest of their lives.A few years ago,a british lady has decided to adopt 2 of this disable boys.One of them, called "Emmanuel", got musical skills and proper training in it.So,he has been enroll to show his skills to X-Factor juri when singing "Imagine",from John Lennon.More than a song by a special
Attending the fact that @Chuckles2979 came to this controversial argue that the sank of WG was simply a "Tragic event", a "negligent loss of human lives" (and not a "War crime/ Crime against the whole humanity"), I would like to ask him, and all the americans, if the bombing of Bagdad by US Navy and Air Forces under George W. Bush gouvernment, wasn't a "warcrime",too?Just let me remind everybody about what a certain british tv channel has shown this thursday, November 10th,2011 in "X-Factor"...
I will make it short and simple. The sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff was in fact a war crime, it was not fair game, it was against proper conduct in war, and it is one of the worst crimes against humanity to date. The crew of S-13 knew exactly what they were doing and that was butchering innocent civilians. And NOTHING anyone says will EVER make it okay.
@Chuckles2979 Furthermore, there has been little to no evidence at all during every dive expedition of there being signs of military personel on the ship. Traces of luggage and clothing recovered show only one type of people, civilian. This supports the reports that no military were on board the Wilhelm Gustloff. Even if there had been, I would still accurately call it a war crime. As I said before, a handful of soldiers do not outweigh thousands of civilians.
Snakes, is there any way to delete the top comments? They don't deserve to have anything besides a negative rating. Trying to justify this crime against humanity or to make fun of it is just sick and twisted.
@Ultimaton100 So now you want to deny people Freedom of Speech as well? Just because you do not agree with what they are saying, when it seems that others do agree?
To @snakes3425 While I think you did a great job in making this video, if you really dislike the arguing, then you might want to re-word your description and comments from using "War Crime" and simply saying "Tragic event" or "loss"
It was a Tragic event of war, History is full of them.
Maybe I do speak out of term, as do others but I don't subscribe to denying freedom of speech, I may not agree with what people say but I won't stop them from saying it. I brand the Gustloff Sinking a War crime for both Germany and Russia, because just before the Soviet Union collapsed the captain got the medal he wanted when he sank the ship. As for military personel, the crew were Kriegsmarine and the doctors and nurses were naval reserve remember the ship was a barracks
and Germany didn't mark the ship as a hospital ship, the other ship sunk by S-13, the General Stuben was indeed carrying soldiers. But given the Red Army's reputation, even if the Gustloff was marked as a hospital ship S-13 would still have sunk her, because of her Captain's personal goal of getting the Hero of the Soviet Union medal and tonnage ment more then lives
@Chuckles2979 Anyone who even knows about the war in the east knows I speak the truth. Are you flat out denying the mass-slaughter carried out by the Red Army? Really? That's like denying the Holocaust. Don't lecture me about history when you are denying a huge chunk of it. I don't care what Americans did, that does not excuse what Russians did. One war crime does not excuse another. It doesn't matter what you or Hitmann claim, no excuse for this crime.
@Ultimaton100 Hmmm I did not deny that the Russians were brutal as they entered Eastern Germany, however, they were not quite as bad as you would like to portray them. I am simply stating that after the war there were plenty of Germans who survived and lived in East Germany otherwise known as the DDR. I was also stating that chances are, many of those who perished on the Gustloff would most probably have survived if they had simply stayed put and been captured.
And when we may read here comments from so-called military people trying to justify tecnichally what any justifiation has(the WG sink)...we may understand now that, in the WWII, so scoudrels and criminals were the nazis than the allieds(and the Dresden bombing took us enough evidences about it!).We may understand why happened the tragedy of September 11th, in New York...I am here in name of a dream: to help bring in the ICC, in Den Haag-Holand, the WILHELM GUSTLOFF case! JUSTICE or DEATH !!!
What I'm doing here?I'm doing what all the Humanity would do if they would know what I know right now: that one night, at the very end of the WWII, a Soviet Union submarine killed 9 500 human be (mainly children!) when sank WILHELM GUSTLOFF against ALL THE RULES OF "JUS BELLI".And attending the victory from the tyrant Stalin, ALEXANDER MARINESKO and his companions NEVER ANSWERED by this crimes in front of an International Criminal Court. Because it meant a MAGESTIC ...CRIME AGAINST THE HUMANITY!
@Chuckles2979...yourself is free to believe in what you like more that it doesn't make me less Jurist as I really am!If you were an intelligent person,since the very first moment from my comments that you had been realize WHAT I AM simply by my way in to build an argument.And if you would understand something about LAW, yo would know that W. GUSTLOFF SINK is matter of Public International Law, and all wars in this world are under the "JUS BELLI" ,the Right in to do the war IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS!
It doesn't matter what people like Hitmann, Chuckles, or the Greekoid pretend. The sinking of the Wilehlm Gustloff was one of the darkest crimes against humanity. The ship's nationality does not change the fact that over 9,500 innocent men, women, and children were murdered that cold night. The crew of S-13 are burning in Hell and so will these "people" denying the crime.
@Ultimaton100 You are crying about 9,000 people, when hundreds of thousands died in bomb raids across Europe. Over 30,000 merchant seamen died in the battle of the Atlantic along with 30,000 German U-Boat sailors. The Gustloff was hardly a "crime against Humanity" It was simply a tragic event of the war. She had military personnel on board who would have continued fighting if they had made it to their destination. This fact alone made the Gustloff a valid military target.
@Chuckles2979 Short and simple, one war crime does not justify another. There is no classifying this tragedy any other way. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. The need to stop a handful of enemy soldiers does not outweigh the lives of thousands of civilians, no matter what the circumstance. Valid military target my ass.
@Ultimaton100 Well, lets look at it this way, I went through all the comments here between you and Hitmann. Then I went through looking into the sinking and along with what I already knew about the Gustloff, the facts do not lie here. The ship was a valid military target. You kept saying early on that the ship did not have military personnel on board, now either you were misinformed, or you were lying just to support your own points. Now, maybe you are judging this based off of the way things...
@Chuckles2979 "You kept saying early on that the ship did not have military personnel on board, now either you were misinformed, or you were lying just to support your own points."
According to recent reports it is still open to speculation as to whether or not the ship had ANY military on board at all. The reports contradict one another. Some claim there were a thousand soldiers on board, others say zero. I'm not going to take either into account without solid evidence.
@Ultimaton100 ...are done now. But I can tell you, the way we do things now is BS plain and simple. You may have heard about the Marines who were courtmartialed years back for firing on civis in a house. Well those Marines were under fire from Terrorists who decided to use the house for cover, and they continued to fire at the Marines who were pinned down. In the end the terrorists and several Civi's were killed
Now who is in the wrong? I say the Terrorists were for using civis as Human shields
@Chuckles2979 To be frank, it does not matter when a war crime is committed. Time does not change good or evil. The Wilhelm Gustloff was as much a war crime and a violation of proper conduct in war as in 1945 as it is today. You keep claiming the ship was a "valid military target", but as one who does their research, I call that complete BS. Refugees are NEVER fair game in conflict. You and Hitmann are in denial that killing civilians out of spite is wrong.
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The top two comments are disgusting and make me want to vomit. There is no justifying the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. The sick bastard who tries might as well call the Holocaust a tea party.
Isnt that what YOU called the Holocaust? A Tea party? Oh wait, no, You most probably go around DENYING the Holocaust ever happened while flying your swastika outside your front door there Toodles.
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@hitmann2300 I never called the Holocaust a tea part you trash. I don't deny it, my great uncle helped END it. I wouldn't be surprised if YOU were the one denying the Holocaust. You have no qualms with denying this war crime. You might as well deny all of them, right? You keep calling me a Nazi, but you sure sound like one yourself, not me. Pathetic fool.
@Chuckles2979...But even in case of defeat, the submission of the case to the International Criminal Court it will be a great victory to the HUMAN RIGHTS since, from that moment ahead, WHOLE WORLD will take knowledgment (finally! after 67 years of CRIMINAL SILENT by the West and Russia) that Soviet Union put in the very bottom of the Baltic sea more than 6000 german children!Was they also "nazis" to suffer their lost of lives?And in Dresden?All the 300,000 killed by the Allieds were "nazis",too?
@GC7885 Well, are you going to bring forth cases on every single operation conducted in the war? Or are you just picking and choosing here?
Lets stay on topic shall we, in the case of the Gustloff, the evidence all supports the Russian Captain. You may not like it, but she was a valid target. End of discussion.
@Chuckles2979...that's your opinion.And nothing more than it!!!And an opinion means what it means...Does am I wrong???So, let the people that had family killed on the sank of WG bright the case in ICC,in Den Haag-Holand and, in the end, we'll see who is wrong or right...I'm lawyer and my speciality is the International Public Law.Your main argument is that the ship was a valid military target.But all wars were under the rules of "JUS BELLI"...And who realy knows him are the judges,not militaries
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@hitmann2300...I'd love to listen you to condemn here,in this freedom forum of opinion,(YOUTUBE), the acts of invasion done by USA, your country, as you did about Nazi Germany.You have got pity (and very well! Me,too...) by those innocents that suffered by Hitler's armies invasion in Poland,Baltic.Czecoslovakia,Russia.. I wanna remind you that,on the start of the 60's,PORTUGAL was an huge country where had peace and progress.However,USA knew that had oil in ANGOLA. And helped the terrorism !!!
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@hitmann2300...don't try to wash some DUTY acts of war (WILLELM GUSTLOFF, the bombing of Dresden,etc...) done by the Allieds powers during the WWII with stupid emotional arguments like you have had in your comments: because the Nazi Germany invaded and brought german families in the Baltic countries,Poland, Russia,etc...ALL germans deserved to be attacked, wrecked theirs lives anywhere and in any circumstance.Don't you wanna tears by thousands of innocent children in WG?You're a FUCK'IN MONSTER!
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@hitmann2300...snakes3425 did a brilliant act of remembering of so MAGESTIC CRIME done against thousands of innocents (moustly children!)from his own People,the germans,in the end of WWII.He was a real patriot,and I admire him by his gesture of humanity and courage in dennounce publicly the CRIMINAL SILENT from the West and Russia about the sink of W.GUSTLOF. He's a real german man,son of one of the best People in today's Europe.The americans even when sleeping you all still be worse than them!
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@Chuckles2979...what interest the History and the today's World if the survivors state or not that the sinking of WG wasn't a war crime?Who are in charge to state if an act of war was war crime (and,in this particulary case, CRIME AGAINST THE WHOLE HUMANITY!!!) and who was his actors...is the International Criminal Court, in Den Haag - Holland.This kind of crimes NEVER prescribe.And by that reason it still open the possibility to submit to judgement ALL the Marinesco's squad that still alive!
@GC7885 You are so very wrong, or perhaps deluded here. In order for there to even be a case, the survivors would have to ask for a case to be brought. Even if any of them did that, they would lose their case in court, there is simply too much evidence to support the defendants that the ship was a valid military target. The ship was armed and was carrying military personnel as well as civilians. They were also in combat waters at that time. This was not the only ship sunk with civilians aboard
Cont.... and the ship WAS sailing in "Combat waters" with her lights shut off. That is from a survivor and he is THE acknowledged AUTHORITY when it comes to the history of the Gustloff! Again for everyone that is crying about the gustloff as being a War crime. Look up Heinz Schon and read some of his books, sadly most are in German only but translations are available.
Actually, according to Wikipedia, the Wilhelm Gustloff did have her red and green navigational lights on prior to being attacked by the Soviet S-13. Since she had both military and civilian personnel on-board and was fitted with anti-aircraft guns since being utilized as a floating barracks for training u-boat personnel it would not be the same as if she were still marked as a hospital ship and no more of a war crime than was the sinking of the Lusitania in WW1 on the same grounds.
@JacksonAtGettysburg War crime or not the Wilhelm Gustloff was one of the worst tragedies of war in recorded history. Over 9,500 dead and heartless fools like TheGreekoid and Hitmann continue to paint it all as "justice was done" nonsense. Families freezing to death in the cold ocean at night is never "justice".
Well it would seem some people are just so immature as to have to have the last word eh?
In response to @snakes3425 You really need to do a bit more research on the Gustloff before you try to brand it as a war crime. Clearly you have not read any of Heinz Schon's books nor his definitive in depth study into the Gustloff tragedy. Heinz is a survivor of the sinking, and even he states that the loss of the Gustloff was NOT a war crime. The ship WAS armed, the ship DID carry military personnel..
My leader is the president of the United States and I have brown hair. But I'm done. I'm going to take Snakes' advice and quit while I'm ahead. Trash like you are not worth it.
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Actually, Hitmann, I knew that definiton for years. Copy and paste my ass. I see you are still calling me a Nazi even though the only one denying war crimes is you. Thats what it comes down to isn't it? You resort to calling names and making up lies because you have nothing to say to all the facts that back me up. Truly pathetic.
I'm fed up with this flame war, the whole point of my video was to honor the dead and shed light on a forgotten and tragic part of the Second World War, in war neither side emerges with clean hands, but I despise those who use one war crime to try and justify another.
@snakes3425 The problem I have is that those of you screaming "War Crime" when looking at this sinking are doing so from "Hindsight" It is too easy to do and does not reflect the actual situation at the time. Marinesko was under orders to sink German Transport ships, since it was known these ships were evacuating Military personnel and equipment. Any German ship in the eastern Baltic was fair game under the rules of war. He had no way of knowing exactly what or who was on board the ship.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, the Eastern Front is what happens when two dictators with absolute power fight each other. To Germany it was a war of extermination to the Soviet Union it was a war of survivial and in the end a war of revenge. For those caught in the middle the only choice was between the bullets of the Waffen-SS or the NKVD
@snakes3425 You seem to be a bit baised here my friend. The thing is, we will never know for sure if Stalin would have eventually attacked Germany or not. But the fact is that Hitler did attack Russia, a country they had a non-aggression pact with. Like you said yourself, Germany waged a war of extermination on the Russians. But, lets look at your argument against the Russians. What was the catalyst for the "War on Terror" that we started after 9-11? wasnt it also for Revenge?
Hitler and Stalin hated each other, and saw each other as ideological rivals. Hitler had been planning Barbarossa since that pact was signed. I label it a war crime because of the Soviet Captain's motive: He wanted a medal that's why he sank the ship not because it was a legitamate target but for personal gain. The point I keep stressing is that I despise one tragedy being used to justify another
I've always tried to avoid being biased, maybe it's because I'm an American of German decent or maybe it's because I'm stubborn in my views. I made this video to try and restore respect and dignigty to the Gustloff tragedy, not provoke Flame Wars, the law may say the Soviet Union didn't commit a war crime by sinking the ship, but morally that is something I can't accept the same way I can't accept that 9/11 was an inside job or that Gulf War II was wrong because of a technicality
@snakes3425 Well, being Stubborn in your views is neither a good way to go through life, nor is it a good way to become a Historian, Historians must be non-biased and open to the facts of the past. No matter how YOU may view the situation. You have to look at it from the time that it happened, not 67 years later. You cant keep making assumptions on what Marinesko may or may not have known. In the end, the Gustloff was a valid military target. The survivors even claim that fact. why ignore them?
It's simply the way I am, I just don't feel that it's right that because of a technicallity that you can't condemn S-13's actions that night with out being branded a Neo-Nazi Sympathizer, which I'm not. I wasn't making assumptions on Marinesko, its well known that he wasn't well liked by his crews and his reputation in the Soviet Navy was bad enough they threw him out soon after the sinking (read his discharge papers)
@snakes3425 Well, there was no technicality about it. The ship was armed, the ship was carrying military personnel that were being sent to Kiel for immediate placement aboard U-Boats when they arrived, the ship had soldiers aboard as well along with military equipment. It carried civilians as well, yet getting on the ship was their decision. Civilians were also placed aboard the Admiral Hipper, a German heavy cruiser, if she had been torpedoed and sunk would that also have been a war crime to U?
I know full well that there were military personell among the refugees, and the ship was armed, that was due in part to the Gustloff's pre-1945 role as a barracks ship for the U-Boat Corps, and the panic caused by the rumors surrounding the Red Army's invasion of East Prussia (which was a part of Germany cut off from the rest by the Polish Corridor after World War I)
what ever you want to call it, it doesn't change that I feel it's still not right that for what ever reason you can't condemn or criticize the Russian Submarine for sinking the ship
I have stressed this time and again, I just don't think it's right that S-13 is let off the hook I've always been 100% behind the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but only until I feel a unit crossed the line, and even then I refuse to take up the Anti-War, America is Evil Banner because I won't let the actions of one hot headed unit become the actions of the everyone. with this video all I wanted was to restore dignigty and respect to the Gustloff Tragedy not ignight flame wars
@snakes3425 Honestly, I would suggest you go to your local recruiter and join the army, and then serve a tour in Afghanistan and then come back and tell us how you feel. Basically you are arguing that any ship carrying civilians should be off limits, whether a person knows or not. The problem then becomes that civilians then are used as Human Shields and this is what we are seeing now in the middle east, and let me tell you, most of us who have been out there are fed up with it.
@snakes3425 You want to blame Marinesko and yet he had no knowledge of what was on board the ship, and he was following his orders. As far as his military career, he was not in trouble with the Russians for being cruel or killing civilians, hell, many pilots were strafing civilians. Marinesko was in trouble for being a drunk, a womanizer and basically all around party animal who went missing the day his mission was to have started.
The political correctness that we fight under these days.....
I don't subscribe to being politically correct, why do you think I blast Marinesko, because of the fact the Gustloff flew a swastika you can't condemn the Russians without touching off a flame war about something else. Given the choice of killing an eight year old kid who is charging at the 20 troopers under my command with an AK47 or handgrenade I'd rather have one family and a bunch of activists mad at me then 20 families because I tried to please the activists
@snakes3425 Then you have just proved my point here along with proving the views held by German survivors of the sinking as well. The Gustloff was carrying military personnel, U-boat crewmen as well as soldiers. Had the Gustloff made it to her destination, those sailors would have been placed on U-boats immediately and more allied ships might have been sunk.
Again I myself, would have sunk the Gustloff if I had been in command of the Submarine on the night of 1-30-1945
@Chuckles2979 Again you are claiming the survivors of the war crime support your argument, but still offer no proof. Excuse me if I call bull when you say survivors would claim they deserved to die. And just because you would have sunk the ship and butchered the innocent yourself, that doesn't make it anymore right. It just makes you as bad as Marinesko.
@snakes3425 ....is what is creating the problems and casualties are troops are suffering now. Even those of us who come home without physical injuries come home with mental ones caused by the stress of being on patrols where we have no idea who the enemy is.
War in and of itself is a crime. In the case of the Gustloff, who do you blame? Personally, I blame the Kriegsmarine itself for the conflicting orders and messed up chain of command on the ship. Yet....
@snakes3425 ... the people who boarded the ship themselves are also to blame, they made their own choice to get on the ship, knowing all the risks. It's called taking responsibility for your own actions and decisions. Chances are they would have survived the war if they had simply stayed put.
As an officer myself, (US Army) I am telling you, I would have sunk the Gustloff had I been in Marinesko's position.
@Chuckles2979 The Red Army was on the move butchering and raping anything in their path. Millions of civilians in Eastern Europe, not just Germans mind you, were massacred by them towards the end of the war. The exact details get rather gruesome. So no, if they had stayed put they would have likely died anyway. If you had sunk the Gustloff you would have been charged in court with the war crime. Unlike Soviet Russia, the United States, for the most part, punishes its war criminals.
Germans kill 25.000.000 soviet people.15.000.000 is a civillian this is not barbaric,?Germans to acknowledge that even legal wilhelm gustloff sinking
ISAACASIMOV30 9 hours ago
I guess none of you know what it is like to live in the middle of a war.the fear,despair and you live not only day by day but minute by minute.These people wanted to escape from this and start a new .They were never given the chance to ever land on a foreign shore and declare themselves refugee's.These people were fleeing the advancing soviet forces.All Germans feared the Soviets barbaric forces .you could never imagine from your computer chair what war is really like .........
marehair 16 hours ago
Like I said, every time you fools spew this nonsense I will be here to stop you. Everyone coming to this video, ingore these trolls. They call everyone who disagrees with them a Nazi, a Hitler-lover, etc. They are just looking for attention. This is all they got going on in their miserable lives. They are here making fun of the Gustloff tragedy and dishonoring the dead. Do the right thing and pay their filth no heed.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
The only troll here is Ultimation100, & like everything he tries to mislead people on, it is all very easy to see through by doing your own searches for the truth. In this case simply go to Ulti's hate page here on youtube. You can see for yourself what kind of person he is.
He is a Neo Nazi preaching Nazi revision of the war. Our friend here simply asks everyone to "trust" him on his word.
I am asking that you go and look up the truth for yourself :)
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
CONT... they could clearly see on the ship and they torpedoed her. This was in broad daylight and the ship was clearly marked as a Hospital ship.
This happened on November 7 1941 in the Black Sea. But I bet you will just say that the victims are all burning in hell because they were Russians right?
hitmann2300 1 week ago
Wow, this debate is still going on? Ulti-Nazi is still spewing shite lies here? Well then, since he makes great claims about being a History Teacher and an expert on War Crimes let's test him shall we?
Ever hear of the "Armenia" there Toodles? Look it up. Now this was a WAR CRIME! The ship was clearly marked as a Hospital ship, she was actually on a Humanitarian mission, carrying mostly civilians and only wounded soldiers. 7,000 died when the Nazi bomber pilots ignored the Hospital markings...
hitmann2300 1 week ago
@hitmann2300 I am not denying Hiroshima and the Armenia, those were also tragedies and war crimes, but that still does not excuse what happened to the WIlhelm Gustloff. One evil does not excuse another. So, what else do you have to throw at me? Because seriously your last comment didn't even come close.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
Here is the truth, the Wilhelm Gustloff was on a MERCY mission transporting REFUGEES so they could escape the war. Marinesko knowingly butchered over 9000 innocent lives, and now over 70 years later you are here pretending nothing went wrong. Please, get a life and stop defacing history. Every time you spew this crap I'll be here to clean your mess up and set things right.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 LOLAll anyone has to do is do a search for "Operation Hannibal" Get over yourself you Socialist queer. You do not even have the guts to leave up any comments on your worthless Troll channel here on Youtube that disagree with your twisted views on the US. You sign off with "For God and Country" and yet have never served your country. You are a spineless little shaved head Nazi.
The Gustloff was a Valid target of War, and this is admitted to by Heinz Schon, who served on the ship...
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Chuckles2979 Operation Hannibal was to evacuate military personel AND civilians. Also, please stay off my channel. I thought I saw a slime trail over it, that was you I take it? My views on my country are as correct and patriotic as one gets. Hardly twisted in any way. I say for God and Country because I love God and America. I serve my country every time I volunteer, help someone in need, and wave the flag with pride. A patriotic American doesn't really fit the description of a Nazi.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 You know nothing about serving this country. Your "vision" for the US is to turn it into a National Socialist, WELFARE state.
As an active duty Veteran serving the USA, I can say this to you, Your kind of "patriotism" only spits on the graves of my fallen brothers in arms who have made the ultimate sacrifice to give you the freedoms you deny others and belittle with your hate. You have no concept of what the phrase for "God and Country" even means, nor what a TRUE patriot is.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 LOL And wait a minute here. Now you are saying Hannibal was both to rescue military and civilians? But did you not say a few comments back that it was just to rescue refugees? By your own admission here, you support everything I have said and damn your own comments. With Hannibal being both a military and civilian OP, it still applies, that, the Gustloff, painted in Grey, unmarked, and armed, along with carrying military personnel made the ship a VALID target of WAR.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 Cont: And Schone survived the sinking. I think he knows far more about the Gustloff and her mission then you do AdolfCheeks
Hannibal was a military Op. that civis pushed themselves into. Even Donitz got pissed and ended up ordering that civis were to be shot! Military personnel were to have PRIORITY. Even after your buddy's death. Donitz initially was doing his best to keep the war going and this is why Hannibal stayed in operation right up to the end of the war.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Chuckles2979 Schone is a tired old man so weary of conflict the poor man will say anything at this point. Sorry, but once again Hannibal was a Humanitarian mission, for the most part. Again you call me Hitler's buddy. Please explain? Hitler demonzied entire peoples, ordered mass-genocide, and told lie after lie. Sorry pal, but it seems you are more like his buddy than me. Don't lecture me about history. I doubt you have ever been to school.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 Again with the lies here. Heinz Schon has written three books, two on the Gustloff sinking and a third on Operation Hannibal. He has ALWAYS stated that the sinking was simply a part of the war. He is considered, by REAL HISTORIANS, as the difinitive EXPERT on the Gustloff tragedy.
Only a NEO-NAZI like yourself would make such a statement. It's the same kind of silly immature argument "your Friends" make to deny the Holocaust....
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 "So and so is simply saying what the Jews want everyone to hear!" This sounds exactly like your own argument Goebbels.
The only people bringing up the Gustloff as a war crime are mostly revisionist Neo-Nazis and ultra extreme Right Nazi supporters as Gunter Grass, another German author who used the Gustloff as a backdrop to his book, "Crabwalk" discussed with the New York Times. Now background. Grass was born in Danzig, he lived through the war, and was a child soldier.....
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 Cont 2: and in late 1944, at the age of 17 he ended up a tank gunner in the 10th SS Panzer division. Now here is a guy you might think would support YOUR views on the Gustloff. He doesnt! In his interview he states..."One of the many reasons I wrote Crabwalk was to take the subject away from the extreme Right...They said the tragedy of the Gustloff was a WAR CRIME. IT WASN'T. It was terrible, BUT IT WAS A RESULT OF WAR, a terrible result of war." All the survivors agree with him.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
You call me a Neo-Nazi, Goebbels, this Toodles crap, and now even Adolf's lover. Why? Because you are too immature, too stubborn, and honestly not right in the head enough to see how vile and rediculous you are being. Do you not see what you are doing? You are revealing your true colors for the entire internet to see. Everyone can see just how much of a psycopath you really are.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 You keep saying I am avoiding the subject, yet you cant answer a simple question, "Why is it that we dont see you crying in comments on any Hiroshima videos about Tibbets being a war criminal?" You spend so much time here and on other Gustloff videos crying about Marinesko. Yet again, 9500 deaths vs 160,000 in one attack. Who is more guilty? One has to wonder, were you raped by a Russian as a child? It would explain both your sexual orientation now and your anger at the Russians.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Chuckles2979 I'm not defending the victims of Hiroshima because there aren't scum like you saying they deserved it. No, your saying the victims of the Gustloff deserved it, so thats why I'm defending them and not Hiroshima. It does not matter who was more guilty, BOTH were wrong. I don't hate Russians in general, I hate the evils they committed agianst Germany out of bloodlust, horrible actions you continue to defend. Also, keep your crude comments to yourself.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 There are plenty who say the people of Hiroshima deserved it. Which is why I brought it up. You are such a liar, You spend so much time running around every Gustloff vid to cry about the Russians but you overlook the real war crimes.
The Gustloff was an ACT of WAR, a tragic act of war, but simply one of many. Marinesko did not know who or what was on the ship.
Tibbets knew FULL WELL he was bombing a city & therefore WOMEN & CHILDREN.
Tell your lies to the Hitler Jugend Goebbels
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Chuckles2979 but poor Marinesko i bet he had some siriusly problems dealing with this later...
BERNTRR 6 days ago
@BERNTRR Not at all. His problems had to do with his drinking and womanizing, which is what cost him getting the "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal in his lifetime.
Remember Marinesko also sank the Steuben during the same patrol which was filled mostly with Soldiers, and the loss of life was another 5,000 Germans sent to their graves.
Chuckles2979 5 days ago
@Chuckles2979 but he is still human, with human thoughts and feelings! maybe his drinking was caused by this.
BERNTRR 5 days ago in playlist Liked videos
@BERNTRR Do yourself a favor and stop speculating and assuming and do a bit of reading and study.
He was a womanizer and party animal BEFORE this mission. He actually failed to report to his sub on the day he was to have sortied, which had him in trouble with his superiors. If he became depressed about anything, it was that the Naval staff cheated him out of the medals and promotions he deserved.
Chuckles2979 5 days ago
@Chuckles2979 mkay my bad :P
BERNTRR 4 days ago
In the Russian's defense, this was an armed ship, it was carrying troops, and Russia was at war. Plus it happened in total darkness; they could have not known it had 7000 civilians onboard. Blame the Germans for putting civilians on a warship.
veryslyfox 1 week ago
@veryslyfox The Russians had intercepted communications and knew fully about the Gustloff's mission. Don't be fooled, they knew what they were doing. And it was 9000 civilains on board. So yes, I do blame the Russians for knowingly torpedoing a ship of refugees. Seriously this tragedy just screams war crime.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 You are so full of shit you live in a catbox there Goebbels.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@veryslyfox These are truths that our Neo-Nazi friend Ultimation wants to ignore. His own site is just a place to spout National Socialist ideology. All the Russians knew during Germany's Operation Hannibal is that the Germans were doing everything they could to get soldiers out of the encirclement of Eastern Prussia. IT was first and foremost, a MILITARY operation. The Gustloff's PRIMARY mission was to bring it's compliment of 1,000+ U-boat cadets to Kiel for active service.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@veryslyfox Ignore the madman Chuckles. His words are meaningless.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
You know what Chuckles? You really disgust me. Enough said. Thankfully most people who watch this video know it was a crime against humanity and not something to paint as all fine and dandy.
Ultimaton100 2 weeks ago
@Ultimaton100 Get over it Goebbels. It was simply an part of the war, NOT a war crime.
You cry so much over this, yet I dont see you demanding that Paul Tiibbets' name be dragged through the mud for bombing Hiroshima. Unlike Marinesko who only saw a ship in the night, Tibbets KNOWINGLY dropped an ATOM BOMB on CIVILIANS. Let's see here, you cry over 9500 Nazi's but say nothing about 90,000 to over 160,000 Japanese who died from a single bomb!?? You really disgust me there Toodles.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
@Chuckles2979 One war crime does not excuse another. Hiroshima was a tragedy, but this video is about the Gustloff, so stop trying to dodge the subject like a coward. Marinesko knew damn well the ship was full of civilians. He knew what he was doing, and he is burning in Hell because of it. By all definitions it was a war crime, and nothing you say will ever change that. And quit calling me a nazi when it is you denying a war crime. Seriously, this crap is not working for you.
Ultimaton100 1 week ago
@Ultimaton100 LOL And you were most probably there right Goebbels? Right there in the Fuehrer Bunker with your gay lover Adolf.
The only person avoiding and dodging the subject is YOU. I LOVE how you now say "Hiroshima was a tragedy" It isnt a War Crime in your book eh? Yet by your definition, and your reasoning about the criminal KNOWINGLY killing innocents, Tibbets is FAR MORE Guilty then Marinesko, Cities have civilians in them! 80,000 to 160,000 dead is far more to cry about then 9500.
Chuckles2979 1 week ago
There were many horriric maritime disasters in world war two, most of them happened to the germans it seems. in the crimean peninsula in early 1943, the red armys advanced trapped the german 17th army in the crimean peninsula, the germans tried to evacuate their troops by sea to Romania. And many ships were sunk, some of them like in the ship Totila in which over five thousand germans drowned, there were many other sinkins with thousands of deaths, most people don't know this history of WW2.
bombarderoazul 2 weeks ago
@bombarderoazul War is a bitch aint it? Too bad the Nazi's did not think of that when they started the war. And of course, it all depends on what point in the war you are talking about. Sure, by 1943 the germans were getting the short end of the stick. But before that time it was the Western allies, and Russia that suffered, and Poland, Holland, and Belgium before that. Ask the Poles how they feel about German suffering in WW2, they will tell you the Nazi's deserved more then they got!
Chuckles2979 2 weeks ago
If the Krauts did not start the war this wouldn't had happemed, they have only themselves to blame...
Lysy2 2 weeks ago in playlist World's Maritime Disasters
@Lysy2 Hallelujah!! Preach it Brother! Amen!!!
Heinz Schon pretty much says exactly the same thing in his interview, do a youtube search 4 "Last Voyage Of The Wilhelm Gustloff 3/3" and watch at 13:17 into it, and you can see Schon's comments on whether or not the Gustloff was a "valid" target. And he should know! He was on the ship when it sank!
Sure, the Gustloff sinking was a tragedy, but war as whole is tragic! People need to remember that.
Chuckles2979 2 weeks ago
Yes,it is Christmas.But it is ALWAYS right time to remind some inhuman USA militaries that,in 2011,still try to justify a real CRIME AGAINST THE HUMANITY based in empty and false arguments that there have RULES in everything in this world,including about the"right in to do the war under certain circumstances"(IUS BELLI).To those beasts in human form,through more than 6000 germ CHILDREN into the bottom from the Baltic was a VALID MILITAY TARGET.Bastards without shame in their fuck'in duty faces
GC7885 4 weeks ago
@GC7885 LOL Again, hindsight is a wonderful thing aint it.? AT THE TIME, on the night of the sinking, all the sub commander knew was that he had a valid, legal military target in his attack scope sight. He had no idea who or what was on it. Grow the fuck up and stop playing Monday morning quarterback.
Chuckles2979 4 weeks ago
LOOKS LIKE THE ALLIED POWERS GOT THEIR REVENGE FOR THE GERMANS SINKING LUSITANIA. ITS NOW 1 ON 1
ianobey11 1 month ago
So...QUID JURIS?Obviously that Commandant Marinesko would have faced a Criminal International Court and answer about his criminal acts,after the end of WWII.But we know that who won the war was Stalin and the USSR,(and not all the Allieds as the West propaganda spreaded across the decades).It was impossible to the International Community to bring Stalin and Marinesko in a International Court (if no,he should also has answered by many other crimes,mostly those done by Red Army once in Germany).
GC7885 1 month ago
...from the rules of the "JUS BELLI" (the right in to do the war under some circumstances).The JB is himself part of the "Public International Law".And it was a "Crime against the Humanity" in attention the specific nature of the large majority of the victims: the CHILDREN!!! (...more than 7000...).They was german CHILDREN, not Nazi germans soldiers or marines.And they were in that tragic night under the protection of a RESCUE BOAT commandant, doesn't matter under what flag it were sailing !!!
GC7885 1 month ago
...against the rules of the "JUS BELLI" (the right in to do the war under some circumstances...)The JB is himself part of the "Public International Law".And it was a "Crime against the Humanity" in attention the specific nature from the large majority of the victims: THE CHILDREN!!!(About 7000...).They was german children,and not nazi german soldiers or marines!Theirs innocent lives were taken by an ambitious and drunk Soviet commandant only by get the vain "human glory" to become Hero of USSR .
GC7885 1 month ago
There have here a lot of information and point the vu that lacks in traditional sources of military History from the WWII.And because I'm Jurist my opinion is basically that the sink of WG wasn't only a "War crime" but more exactly a "Crime against the whole Humanity".Why?Not only attending the trip of WG in January 1945 to Finland was to rescue mostly civilians that weren't involve in war activity ("Operation Hannibal").But mainly because the USSR submarine attack to WG meant a true violation..
GC7885 1 month ago
@WALTERBROADUS...let me congratulate yourself by so honest intellectualy was your comment answering @Ultimaton100...by opposition to some comments from several military people from the USA that has denied that the sink of WG wasn't even a "war crime", just a negigent act of war,they sais.I sincerely recommend you to read all the comments to this video from the very first one and you'll understand better the historichal context in which happened "the worst maritime tragedy ever in war times ".
GC7885 1 month ago
@GC7885 I have no dog in this fight. I'm Ex USN And Military history is my hobby. BOTH sides in WW2 practiced UNRESTRICTED SUBWARFARE. The days of surfacing, boarding, checking papers, letting the crew take to boats & using the deck gun died in WW 1. The ship was not marked as a hospital ship. War is not pretty but The Eastern Front war played by much different rules. The Soviets kept German POW's like top fighter Ace Erich Hartmann for 10 years after the end of the war.
WALTERBROADDUS 1 month ago
i heard that there's still human remains inside and out...is that true...?
fangirl001 1 month ago
How does a boat carry that much people and cargo to feed. And I feel the number of people and lifeboats,And Rushing crowds,And the torpedos.....You know what actually it was just because it sank was how it sank.
ninjaco99 1 month ago
@ninjaco99
Refugees and wounded were crammed into every space, the ship was heading to German controled Territory farther west
Orginally the ship was a passenger liner built for the Nazis Strength Through Joy program, after the war began it was taken over by the Kriegsmarine as a transport/hospital ship, but spent the bulk of it's service as a floating barracks for the U-Boat Corps, before being reactivated to assisst in evacuating refugees from East Prussia
snakes3425 1 month ago
@snakes3425 You might also want to add "evacuating military personnel" as well, since it is an admitted fact that she was carrying soldiers and a complete class of Naval U-boat cadets as well.
This made her, by the rules of war in place during the second world war, a Legal target of war.
Chuckles2979 4 weeks ago
@Chuckles2979 And an atrocity is an atrocity, as the bombs over Japan, KZ-camps and soforth. Its a part of a conflict and need not to be justified by rules, its military decisions - and there is always a human being taking the decisions. The "Following order"-principle was clearly outstaked during the Nürnberg-trials. Sinking a liner in the region is a valid target, but nonetheless a questionable one. As the drones in Iraq and Afghanistan often execute, killing multiple innocents.
anneloev 3 weeks ago
@anneloev And being in service for the US in the mentioned conflict zones does not impress the rest of the world. My brother has served there too, and it was NOT in the name of his country. It was his job. He fought for peace and the good hope of humanity. Wilhelm Gustloffs sinking was not a part of such an idea. And its the militarys job to make the proper deciscions during their actions, not just fire at everything that moves. Its not war that kills people, its people!
anneloev 3 weeks ago
@anneloev Again you are looking at this from a modern standpoint, not by how wars were fought 60 years ago. World war two was a "Total war" and if you want to point a finger at who to blame for targeting civilians, then you should point it right at Nazi Germany who started the whole mess, even before WW2 when they bombed Spanish cities like Guernica during the Spanish Civil war, They got real good at it when they bombed Warsaw to dust, then Rotterdam, Amsterdam, and then the London blitz
Chuckles2979 3 weeks ago
@Chuckles2979 Im not a child, nor childish, so don´t patronize. I see your standpoint and do not patronize you. But as you mention german bombing tactics you seem to have forgotten British airforce bombing Khabul 1919, doctrines from forming RAF "protecting the interests of the Empire by all means " from 1923 and the bombing of Berlin 1940 as the start for the Blitz...its, as you state, acts of a total war. But during the process - humanity looses due to shortsighted militarians.
anneloev 2 weeks ago
@anneloev ...cont..You do have knowledge of the conflict and the hindsight of being behind the executers scope, but you lack the insight of the executioners choice. The sinking of the ship was not an issue for the soviet captain, he thought it was a valid target. But the missed the process of the identification, he fired at a non valid target, and that question never got into questioning - since it was germans who died. There were many germans who got trialed for less after war.
anneloev 2 weeks ago
@anneloev Again, the Gustloff WAS a legitimate war target, even by process of identification, since she flew no red cross flags, nor was painted as a hospital ship. She was painted in Navy Grey, she had guns, and she was carrying military personnel, all of this made her a valid war target. Even Heinz Schon, a survivor of the sinking and a merchant marine cadet at the time, states these very facts. That the ship was a valid target of war.
Chuckles2979 2 weeks ago
@anneloev Also, when talking about "Identification" to what are you referring to? The ship was not marked as a humanitarian ship, like many liners of the time, she was converted for use as a "troop ship" and as such was a valid target. Painted Grey, armed with guns, and carrying military personnel. Just because she was once a passenger ship does not make her a "non-valid" target. If that were the case then Germany still has a lot to answer for, since they sank many such ships during the war.
Chuckles2979 2 weeks ago
@anneloev cont 3..All wars are brutal. But there are rules, even in war. It is not, fx, allowed to shoot down a landing plane. But how can you resist when you got one in sight? As you break the rules, all is chaos. But im not a friend of the germans during the WWII, I am glad that the allied won, but I cannot cope with the idea that its justifiable that innocent people dies in a political conflict. Its up to the militarians professionality to make proper decision, Gustloff was wronged!
anneloev 2 weeks ago
@anneloev Jesus, you truly are a child. Where do you get that landing military planes are no longer valid targets? Military aircraft are targets no matter whether they are flying, taking off, landing, or sitting on the field. That has been the case since man started using aircraft as weapons. Again, all that was known about the Gustloff at the time, was that she was a military transport, and that the German military was trying to escape encirclement. That civi's got on board was THEIR choice.
Chuckles2979 2 weeks ago
@anneloev LOL What the RAF did in Iraq in the 20's, has no bearing on their conduct at the start of the WW2. When the British bombed Berlin in 1940, it was in retaliation for an act a German unit committed that was actually an accident, but the British had no way of knowing this, when a lost Luftwaffe unit dropped bombs on a suburb of London. However, the Germans had by that time already made terror bombing a part of their doctrine, so the Brits had reason to believe the bombing was intentional
Chuckles2979 2 weeks ago
@anneloev Sigh, so many silly people. It is wonderful isnt it, when you can look back 60 years later and make a judgement call on something isnt it? All of you children need to get out of your highchairs and try to think a bit more rationally. At the time, the Russian capatin only saw a ship, painted grey, not marked as a hospital ship, it had weapons on the decks, and it was a known fact the Germans were evacuating their troops from the encirclement. He had no idea who or how many were aboard..
Chuckles2979 3 weeks ago
@anneloev .. CONT: all the guy saw was a ship and all ships at that time were valid targets. If you truly wish to bitch about "Warcrimes" then you should hold every bomber pilot, from every country involved as "war criminals" because they all KNOWINGLY bombed cities whether we are talking about Warsaw, Berlin, London, Coventry, Hamburg, Cologne, Tokyo, or Hiroshima, those pilots all knew they were bombing Civilians, they knew it was not just soldiers they were killing....
Chuckles2979 3 weeks ago
@anneloev Cont part 3... This is the issue I have with those of you crying over this tragedy, and I do actually see it as tragic, but not as a war crime, and hardly as "one of the worst war crimes" as some have said here. 9500 people is hardly a rain drop in a bucket, when compared to the hundreds of thousands who died in some of the largest bombing raids of WW2, like Rotterdam, Dresden. Warsaw in 1939, the starvation of the people in Leningrad, the bombing of Berlin. Something to think about!
Chuckles2979 3 weeks ago
I may guess if it would happen with 10000 human be from the Allied countries how many movies,full of brilliant movie stars and romantic stories on board,would Holywood have been produced about the sinking...How many parades and remembering days would those countries have organized.But because they were germans,we could see here a lots of "passionates of freedom and liberty"make comments justifying their deaths!Unbelievable...in 2011!Thanks JESUS by have teach me that ALL the souls belong to GOD!
GC7885 2 months ago
What is more sad in WG sinking is not only the lost of so massive number of innocent and so young people (...could any one of them would became if survivers of that tragic trip a great pianist, lord mayor, prime-minister, footballer, singer, writer???).What still sad and anguished so many years after is the criminal obscurity of this tragedy in Russia and the West!...I have legitimity to talk about since I'm from a neutral country in WWII.Because the victims was germans wouldn't they human be???
GC7885 2 months ago
whats the name of this song
TheGodzillarules 2 months ago
@TheGodzillarules Sleeing Sun by Nightwish, though this paticular version is unknown to me.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
Snakes...You did it so well, as always!
greatlakeslover 2 months ago in playlist More videos from snakes3425
Germany and Russia are now good friends; the Soviet Union is now gone forever! Vladimir Putin speaks fluent German and lived in Dresden for 15 years as a KGB officer; he would have seen the aftermath of the bombings there.
Now, Germany can focus on more important issues like quality of life of its citizens, higher education, science, and health care. The country can disengage itself from the petty hatreds and ridiculous blood feuds found elsewhere.
LutherPenndragon 2 months ago
Comment removed
LutherPenndragon 2 months ago
To think the Titanic was the worst naval tragedy.. how wrong could I have been. R.I.P. to all the innocent Germans who lost their precious lives. They shall be avenged.
EwigesEiszeit 2 months ago
@EwigesEiszeit R.I.P. to all the innocent Germans who lost their precious lives. They shall be avenged.
How exactly shall they be "avenged"? Will Germany attack Russia? Last time I looked Russia had about 10,000 Nuclear Warheads and Germany had...er...let me see.... exactly 0. ZERO. Zilch. Germany=Economic Superpower and Military Dwarf.
TheGreekoid 2 months ago
@TheGreekoid He likely means avenged by making sure this war crime is made public knowledge, or even more so, much more so. The wolrd needs to see the horror committed against the innocents on the Wilhelm Gustloff, and the monument to the captain of S-13 needs to be demolished. I know your stance on the matter, but there really is no justifying what happened, and nothing you say will ever change that.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 The world needs to see the horror committed against the innocents on the Wilhelm Gustloff
With 6 million dead Jews, millions of Russians and Poles slaughtered, 2 Atomic bombings in Japan,a few million Chinese butchered by the Japs and a couple of million German refugees murdered at the end of WW2, the World couldnt care less about this little pleasure boat.
TheGreekoid 2 months ago
@TheGreekoid One war crime does not excuse another. Thankfully most people are more intelligent than you and know right from wrong. Your blind hate and ignorance does not speak for everyone on Earth. Like me, they understand sinking a refugee ship and killing over 9500 civilians is wrong. Pleasure boat my ass.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 Now let's be carful with the Words "War crime." The war was on. She was a troop ship. Thus a legit target. Would I have taken the Shot? No. But considering is about all the Russian navy did in the war. I think they were itching to sink anything German.
WALTERBROADDUS 1 month ago
@WALTERBROADDUS She may have been a troop ship, but she was carrying refugees when sunk. That is by modern definition a war crime. I give presentations about this tragedy and always use that term to describe what happened.
Ultimaton100 1 month ago
@Ultimaton100 She was carrying BOTH refugees AND MILITARY PERSONNEL, THAT MADE HER A LEGITIMATE WAR TARGET! Get over your Nazi sympathies and accept facts.
Jesus, LOFL You really have no life outside of Nazi pamphlets and Youtube videos about a single Nazi ship sunk 60 years ago. If you truly hate war crimes so much, why are you not arguing with the Neo-Nazi's about their lies that the Holocaust never happened eh??
Chuckles2979 1 month ago
@Chuckles2979 So let me get this straight. Explaining the truth behind one of the worst crimes against humanity makes me a Nazi? Your not making sense, kid. I am not a Nazi, I am simply someone who is morally mature enough to know that no matter what the Germans did, what Russia did to them was no better. The only one who needs to accept the facts is you.
Ultimaton100 4 weeks ago
@Ultimaton100 You are explaining a "truth" based on hindsight, you are not explaining things from the standpoint of the moment in time, which is a very immature thing to do. As others have said, including survivors from the ship itself. She was a valid military target. Only a Nazi like yourself would continue to cry, bitch, and moan about this. At the time of her sinking, the only thing that could be seen in the attack scope was a troop transport ship, a VALID, LEGAL Target......
Chuckles2979 4 weeks ago
@Ultimaton100 LOL and I am hardly a kid punk, I've served in Iraq and Afganistan, have you ever actually served your country? Have you ever been at war? You have no understanding of what it is like to be in a conflict, and have no understanding of the emotions involved, so take my advice and stay in your own lane child. Keep your National Socialist leanings to yourself.
Chuckles2979 4 weeks ago
@WALTERBROADDUS LOL How can you even answer such a question as "Would I have taken the shot?" truthfully when you are using hindsight? You see a ship in the dark you know is that it must be an enemy ship, your nation has told you that the enemy is using ships to escape encirclement & continue the war. They are moving military equipment and troops. Honestly are you not going to take the shot? Arent you going to think about your Brother's in Arms? That they may be killed by these survivors later?
Chuckles2979 1 month ago
@Chuckles2979 My torps could just as been useful on a tanker or a warship. Firing could just as much alert the Germans & subject me to ASW attack. Thus I would need to value the risk vs reward.
WALTERBROADDUS 1 month ago
@WALTERBROADDUS LOL Silly answer really when the germans at this time were not using tankers, remember, they were at this time compressed within their own borders. Again you are making an excuse based on Hindsight, and not the conditions at the moment. The Gustloff would have appeared to you exactly as she did to Marinesko or any other sub commander, A Large juicy target. Plain and simple. As a Navy man you must fully be aware of the many POW ships sunk by USN planes and subs in the Pacific....
Chuckles2979 1 month ago
@Chuckles2979 Panzers & air units still needed fuel. With railroads savaged by air, bringing fuel to a open baltic port via Sweden is not out the question. Am I using hindsight? Trying to avoid the choice vs. doing the job? Well, it is Xmas and "Snoppy vs the Red Barron" is playing on the radio.
WALTERBROADDUS 1 month ago
@WALTERBROADDUS Cont.... In 1944 the Japanese loaded many ships with US POWs to send them back to Japan rather then risk the Americans freeing them, (They killed many they could not put on ships) However, these ships were not marked, and the Navy Sub captains and Naval Air Crews that found these ships in their sights had no way of knowing who was on board, all they saw were Transport ships and they were valid targets. Afterward of course many of these men were devastated to learn.....
Chuckles2979 1 month ago
@Chuckles2979 Torpedo Run (1958) Glen Ford & Ernest Borgnine. Yep. I saw the film & know the problem. Ford has it even worse. Wife & kid left in Manila is on the transport escorting a carrier.
WALTERBROADDUS 1 month ago
@WALTERBROADDUS If you are only getting your knowledge of History from Hollywood, then I truly pity you for your ignorance. :)
Chuckles2979 4 weeks ago
@WALTERBROADDUS Cont. part 2.... what the actual cargo on board these ships was, However, AT THE TIME, they only saw these transport ships as valid Targets, flying Japanese flags. The same goes for Marinesko, he only saw a large transport ship in the dark, everything else that these kiddies want to whine about is pure assumption and BS. The Gustloff was a Legal target based on the wartime conditions AT THAT Time in the war. And if you are Honest with yourself, you would have fired on it too.
Chuckles2979 1 month ago
@WALTERBROADDUS It would appear you never saw the documentary on the Gustloff. The Sub's Sonar man stated that he knew the Gustloff was a twin screw vessel, He also knew that the ship was alone, so no worries about ASW, This only made the Gustloff a sub crew's dream. In fact Marinesko stayed in the area after the sinking just to wait for other German ships, The Hipper turned tail, but an ASW did not and the Russians did fire on that ship, and endured a retaliatory ASW attack and survived it :)
Chuckles2979 1 month ago
@TheGreekoid I see you mentioned German refugees in your little hate rant. The victims of the Wilhelm Gustloff fall into that category. They were German refugees. What, do you only care about those murdered on land?
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Ultimaton100 I see you mentioned German refugees in your little hate rant.What, do you only care about those murdered on land?
I dont "care" about any of them, whether German or otherwise.This was Total War, that means civilians as well as soldiers were considered legitimate targets.
TheGreekoid 1 month ago
The Gustloff tragedy is such a sad story…9500 souls at the bottom of the cold Baltic sea. It is hard to imagine that so many people died so fast. I guess only the Allied bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, & Dresden killed more faster. The music "Sleeping Sun" by Nightwish was perfect…mournful yet beautiful.
LutherPenndragon 2 months ago
@LutherPenndragon You can help by downrating the top two comments praising the sinking. Don't let those who deny war crimes get their word in.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 Don't let the Trolls and Haters get to you, man; just ignore them.
LutherPenndragon 2 months ago
@LutherPenndragon Good advice. Odds are they are just looking for attention.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
...interpreter, it was a moment in which one Nation (the U.K.) felt on hearts of all that got the honor in listen Emmanuel sing, the tragic destiny of Iraq War (in which the Uk were envolved ...).Wonderful!!!A fantastic human be,deformed and walking atipichally,without hands...could make an huge country (including all the members of the Juri!) CRY!... And I'll never forget the ONLY words that a Juri's member said when Emmanuel finished to sing :"Oh,man...what WE (he refers the UK...) did...!!!"
GC7885 2 months ago
"X-Factor" is a tv programme that try to find new music talented people.In consequence of the Bagdad bombing, thousands of iraqui children lose their hands,arms, legs...getting disabilities for the rest of their lives.A few years ago,a british lady has decided to adopt 2 of this disable boys.One of them, called "Emmanuel", got musical skills and proper training in it.So,he has been enroll to show his skills to X-Factor juri when singing "Imagine",from John Lennon.More than a song by a special
GC7885 2 months ago
Attending the fact that @Chuckles2979 came to this controversial argue that the sank of WG was simply a "Tragic event", a "negligent loss of human lives" (and not a "War crime/ Crime against the whole humanity"), I would like to ask him, and all the americans, if the bombing of Bagdad by US Navy and Air Forces under George W. Bush gouvernment, wasn't a "warcrime",too?Just let me remind everybody about what a certain british tv channel has shown this thursday, November 10th,2011 in "X-Factor"...
GC7885 2 months ago
There is only one type of "person" who can look at this massacre and turn away, a monster.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Ultimaton100 There is only one type of "person" who can look at this massacre and turn away, a monster.
I am proud to be a monster
TheGreekoid 2 months ago
I will make it short and simple. The sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff was in fact a war crime, it was not fair game, it was against proper conduct in war, and it is one of the worst crimes against humanity to date. The crew of S-13 knew exactly what they were doing and that was butchering innocent civilians. And NOTHING anyone says will EVER make it okay.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 Furthermore, there has been little to no evidence at all during every dive expedition of there being signs of military personel on the ship. Traces of luggage and clothing recovered show only one type of people, civilian. This supports the reports that no military were on board the Wilhelm Gustloff. Even if there had been, I would still accurately call it a war crime. As I said before, a handful of soldiers do not outweigh thousands of civilians.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
Snakes, is there any way to delete the top comments? They don't deserve to have anything besides a negative rating. Trying to justify this crime against humanity or to make fun of it is just sick and twisted.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 So now you want to deny people Freedom of Speech as well? Just because you do not agree with what they are saying, when it seems that others do agree?
To @snakes3425 While I think you did a great job in making this video, if you really dislike the arguing, then you might want to re-word your description and comments from using "War Crime" and simply saying "Tragic event" or "loss"
It was a Tragic event of war, History is full of them.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
Maybe I do speak out of term, as do others but I don't subscribe to denying freedom of speech, I may not agree with what people say but I won't stop them from saying it. I brand the Gustloff Sinking a War crime for both Germany and Russia, because just before the Soviet Union collapsed the captain got the medal he wanted when he sank the ship. As for military personel, the crew were Kriegsmarine and the doctors and nurses were naval reserve remember the ship was a barracks
snakes3425 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
and Germany didn't mark the ship as a hospital ship, the other ship sunk by S-13, the General Stuben was indeed carrying soldiers. But given the Red Army's reputation, even if the Gustloff was marked as a hospital ship S-13 would still have sunk her, because of her Captain's personal goal of getting the Hero of the Soviet Union medal and tonnage ment more then lives
snakes3425 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 Anyone who even knows about the war in the east knows I speak the truth. Are you flat out denying the mass-slaughter carried out by the Red Army? Really? That's like denying the Holocaust. Don't lecture me about history when you are denying a huge chunk of it. I don't care what Americans did, that does not excuse what Russians did. One war crime does not excuse another. It doesn't matter what you or Hitmann claim, no excuse for this crime.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 Hmmm I did not deny that the Russians were brutal as they entered Eastern Germany, however, they were not quite as bad as you would like to portray them. I am simply stating that after the war there were plenty of Germans who survived and lived in East Germany otherwise known as the DDR. I was also stating that chances are, many of those who perished on the Gustloff would most probably have survived if they had simply stayed put and been captured.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
And when we may read here comments from so-called military people trying to justify tecnichally what any justifiation has(the WG sink)...we may understand now that, in the WWII, so scoudrels and criminals were the nazis than the allieds(and the Dresden bombing took us enough evidences about it!).We may understand why happened the tragedy of September 11th, in New York...I am here in name of a dream: to help bring in the ICC, in Den Haag-Holand, the WILHELM GUSTLOFF case! JUSTICE or DEATH !!!
GC7885 2 months ago
What I'm doing here?I'm doing what all the Humanity would do if they would know what I know right now: that one night, at the very end of the WWII, a Soviet Union submarine killed 9 500 human be (mainly children!) when sank WILHELM GUSTLOFF against ALL THE RULES OF "JUS BELLI".And attending the victory from the tyrant Stalin, ALEXANDER MARINESKO and his companions NEVER ANSWERED by this crimes in front of an International Criminal Court. Because it meant a MAGESTIC ...CRIME AGAINST THE HUMANITY!
GC7885 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979...yourself is free to believe in what you like more that it doesn't make me less Jurist as I really am!If you were an intelligent person,since the very first moment from my comments that you had been realize WHAT I AM simply by my way in to build an argument.And if you would understand something about LAW, yo would know that W. GUSTLOFF SINK is matter of Public International Law, and all wars in this world are under the "JUS BELLI" ,the Right in to do the war IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS!
GC7885 2 months ago
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It doesn't matter what people like Hitmann, Chuckles, or the Greekoid pretend. The sinking of the Wilehlm Gustloff was one of the darkest crimes against humanity. The ship's nationality does not change the fact that over 9,500 innocent men, women, and children were murdered that cold night. The crew of S-13 are burning in Hell and so will these "people" denying the crime.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 You are crying about 9,000 people, when hundreds of thousands died in bomb raids across Europe. Over 30,000 merchant seamen died in the battle of the Atlantic along with 30,000 German U-Boat sailors. The Gustloff was hardly a "crime against Humanity" It was simply a tragic event of the war. She had military personnel on board who would have continued fighting if they had made it to their destination. This fact alone made the Gustloff a valid military target.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 Short and simple, one war crime does not justify another. There is no classifying this tragedy any other way. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. The need to stop a handful of enemy soldiers does not outweigh the lives of thousands of civilians, no matter what the circumstance. Valid military target my ass.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 Well, lets look at it this way, I went through all the comments here between you and Hitmann. Then I went through looking into the sinking and along with what I already knew about the Gustloff, the facts do not lie here. The ship was a valid military target. You kept saying early on that the ship did not have military personnel on board, now either you were misinformed, or you were lying just to support your own points. Now, maybe you are judging this based off of the way things...
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 "You kept saying early on that the ship did not have military personnel on board, now either you were misinformed, or you were lying just to support your own points."
According to recent reports it is still open to speculation as to whether or not the ship had ANY military on board at all. The reports contradict one another. Some claim there were a thousand soldiers on board, others say zero. I'm not going to take either into account without solid evidence.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 ...are done now. But I can tell you, the way we do things now is BS plain and simple. You may have heard about the Marines who were courtmartialed years back for firing on civis in a house. Well those Marines were under fire from Terrorists who decided to use the house for cover, and they continued to fire at the Marines who were pinned down. In the end the terrorists and several Civi's were killed
Now who is in the wrong? I say the Terrorists were for using civis as Human shields
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 To be frank, it does not matter when a war crime is committed. Time does not change good or evil. The Wilhelm Gustloff was as much a war crime and a violation of proper conduct in war as in 1945 as it is today. You keep claiming the ship was a "valid military target", but as one who does their research, I call that complete BS. Refugees are NEVER fair game in conflict. You and Hitmann are in denial that killing civilians out of spite is wrong.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
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The top two comments are disgusting and make me want to vomit. There is no justifying the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. The sick bastard who tries might as well call the Holocaust a tea party.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
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@Ultimaton100 There is no justifying the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff
Yes there is its called Revenge.Or, if you are a religious person, you can call it an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth etc
TheGreekoid 2 months ago 3
Isnt that what YOU called the Holocaust? A Tea party? Oh wait, no, You most probably go around DENYING the Holocaust ever happened while flying your swastika outside your front door there Toodles.
hitmann2300 2 months ago
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@hitmann2300 I never called the Holocaust a tea part you trash. I don't deny it, my great uncle helped END it. I wouldn't be surprised if YOU were the one denying the Holocaust. You have no qualms with denying this war crime. You might as well deny all of them, right? You keep calling me a Nazi, but you sure sound like one yourself, not me. Pathetic fool.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979...But even in case of defeat, the submission of the case to the International Criminal Court it will be a great victory to the HUMAN RIGHTS since, from that moment ahead, WHOLE WORLD will take knowledgment (finally! after 67 years of CRIMINAL SILENT by the West and Russia) that Soviet Union put in the very bottom of the Baltic sea more than 6000 german children!Was they also "nazis" to suffer their lost of lives?And in Dresden?All the 300,000 killed by the Allieds were "nazis",too?
GC7885 2 months ago
@GC7885 Well, are you going to bring forth cases on every single operation conducted in the war? Or are you just picking and choosing here?
Lets stay on topic shall we, in the case of the Gustloff, the evidence all supports the Russian Captain. You may not like it, but she was a valid target. End of discussion.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979...that's your opinion.And nothing more than it!!!And an opinion means what it means...Does am I wrong???So, let the people that had family killed on the sank of WG bright the case in ICC,in Den Haag-Holand and, in the end, we'll see who is wrong or right...I'm lawyer and my speciality is the International Public Law.Your main argument is that the ship was a valid military target.But all wars were under the rules of "JUS BELLI"...And who realy knows him are the judges,not militaries
GC7885 2 months ago
@GC7885 I honestly doubt you are a Lawyer, you are too clueless on both civilian and military law.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
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@hitmann2300...I'd love to listen you to condemn here,in this freedom forum of opinion,(YOUTUBE), the acts of invasion done by USA, your country, as you did about Nazi Germany.You have got pity (and very well! Me,too...) by those innocents that suffered by Hitler's armies invasion in Poland,Baltic.Czecoslovakia,Russia.. I wanna remind you that,on the start of the 60's,PORTUGAL was an huge country where had peace and progress.However,USA knew that had oil in ANGOLA. And helped the terrorism !!!
GC7885 2 months ago
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@hitmann2300...don't try to wash some DUTY acts of war (WILLELM GUSTLOFF, the bombing of Dresden,etc...) done by the Allieds powers during the WWII with stupid emotional arguments like you have had in your comments: because the Nazi Germany invaded and brought german families in the Baltic countries,Poland, Russia,etc...ALL germans deserved to be attacked, wrecked theirs lives anywhere and in any circumstance.Don't you wanna tears by thousands of innocent children in WG?You're a FUCK'IN MONSTER!
GC7885 2 months ago
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@hitmann2300...snakes3425 did a brilliant act of remembering of so MAGESTIC CRIME done against thousands of innocents (moustly children!)from his own People,the germans,in the end of WWII.He was a real patriot,and I admire him by his gesture of humanity and courage in dennounce publicly the CRIMINAL SILENT from the West and Russia about the sink of W.GUSTLOF. He's a real german man,son of one of the best People in today's Europe.The americans even when sleeping you all still be worse than them!
GC7885 2 months ago
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@Chuckles2979...what interest the History and the today's World if the survivors state or not that the sinking of WG wasn't a war crime?Who are in charge to state if an act of war was war crime (and,in this particulary case, CRIME AGAINST THE WHOLE HUMANITY!!!) and who was his actors...is the International Criminal Court, in Den Haag - Holland.This kind of crimes NEVER prescribe.And by that reason it still open the possibility to submit to judgement ALL the Marinesco's squad that still alive!
GC7885 2 months ago
@GC7885 You are so very wrong, or perhaps deluded here. In order for there to even be a case, the survivors would have to ask for a case to be brought. Even if any of them did that, they would lose their case in court, there is simply too much evidence to support the defendants that the ship was a valid military target. The ship was armed and was carrying military personnel as well as civilians. They were also in combat waters at that time. This was not the only ship sunk with civilians aboard
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
If only those Russians were around today to help Europe solve its German problem once again.
TheGreekoid 2 months ago 35
Cont.... and the ship WAS sailing in "Combat waters" with her lights shut off. That is from a survivor and he is THE acknowledged AUTHORITY when it comes to the history of the Gustloff! Again for everyone that is crying about the gustloff as being a War crime. Look up Heinz Schon and read some of his books, sadly most are in German only but translations are available.
hitmann2300 2 months ago 18
@hitmann2300
Actually, according to Wikipedia, the Wilhelm Gustloff did have her red and green navigational lights on prior to being attacked by the Soviet S-13. Since she had both military and civilian personnel on-board and was fitted with anti-aircraft guns since being utilized as a floating barracks for training u-boat personnel it would not be the same as if she were still marked as a hospital ship and no more of a war crime than was the sinking of the Lusitania in WW1 on the same grounds.
JacksonAtGettysburg 2 months ago
@JacksonAtGettysburg War crime or not the Wilhelm Gustloff was one of the worst tragedies of war in recorded history. Over 9,500 dead and heartless fools like TheGreekoid and Hitmann continue to paint it all as "justice was done" nonsense. Families freezing to death in the cold ocean at night is never "justice".
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
Well it would seem some people are just so immature as to have to have the last word eh?
In response to @snakes3425 You really need to do a bit more research on the Gustloff before you try to brand it as a war crime. Clearly you have not read any of Heinz Schon's books nor his definitive in depth study into the Gustloff tragedy. Heinz is a survivor of the sinking, and even he states that the loss of the Gustloff was NOT a war crime. The ship WAS armed, the ship DID carry military personnel..
hitmann2300 2 months ago 9
My leader is the president of the United States and I have brown hair. But I'm done. I'm going to take Snakes' advice and quit while I'm ahead. Trash like you are not worth it.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
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Actually, Hitmann, I knew that definiton for years. Copy and paste my ass. I see you are still calling me a Nazi even though the only one denying war crimes is you. Thats what it comes down to isn't it? You resort to calling names and making up lies because you have nothing to say to all the facts that back me up. Truly pathetic.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
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@Ultimation100 and @hitmann2300
I'm fed up with this flame war, the whole point of my video was to honor the dead and shed light on a forgotten and tragic part of the Second World War, in war neither side emerges with clean hands, but I despise those who use one war crime to try and justify another.
snakes3425 2 months ago
@snakes3425 The problem I have is that those of you screaming "War Crime" when looking at this sinking are doing so from "Hindsight" It is too easy to do and does not reflect the actual situation at the time. Marinesko was under orders to sink German Transport ships, since it was known these ships were evacuating Military personnel and equipment. Any German ship in the eastern Baltic was fair game under the rules of war. He had no way of knowing exactly what or who was on board the ship.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago 13
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@Chuckles2979
I've said it once and I'll say it again, the Eastern Front is what happens when two dictators with absolute power fight each other. To Germany it was a war of extermination to the Soviet Union it was a war of survivial and in the end a war of revenge. For those caught in the middle the only choice was between the bullets of the Waffen-SS or the NKVD
snakes3425 2 months ago
@snakes3425 You seem to be a bit baised here my friend. The thing is, we will never know for sure if Stalin would have eventually attacked Germany or not. But the fact is that Hitler did attack Russia, a country they had a non-aggression pact with. Like you said yourself, Germany waged a war of extermination on the Russians. But, lets look at your argument against the Russians. What was the catalyst for the "War on Terror" that we started after 9-11? wasnt it also for Revenge?
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
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@Chuckles2979
Hitler and Stalin hated each other, and saw each other as ideological rivals. Hitler had been planning Barbarossa since that pact was signed. I label it a war crime because of the Soviet Captain's motive: He wanted a medal that's why he sank the ship not because it was a legitamate target but for personal gain. The point I keep stressing is that I despise one tragedy being used to justify another
snakes3425 2 months ago
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@Chuckles2979
I've always tried to avoid being biased, maybe it's because I'm an American of German decent or maybe it's because I'm stubborn in my views. I made this video to try and restore respect and dignigty to the Gustloff tragedy, not provoke Flame Wars, the law may say the Soviet Union didn't commit a war crime by sinking the ship, but morally that is something I can't accept the same way I can't accept that 9/11 was an inside job or that Gulf War II was wrong because of a technicality
snakes3425 2 months ago
@snakes3425 Well, being Stubborn in your views is neither a good way to go through life, nor is it a good way to become a Historian, Historians must be non-biased and open to the facts of the past. No matter how YOU may view the situation. You have to look at it from the time that it happened, not 67 years later. You cant keep making assumptions on what Marinesko may or may not have known. In the end, the Gustloff was a valid military target. The survivors even claim that fact. why ignore them?
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
It's simply the way I am, I just don't feel that it's right that because of a technicallity that you can't condemn S-13's actions that night with out being branded a Neo-Nazi Sympathizer, which I'm not. I wasn't making assumptions on Marinesko, its well known that he wasn't well liked by his crews and his reputation in the Soviet Navy was bad enough they threw him out soon after the sinking (read his discharge papers)
snakes3425 2 months ago
@snakes3425 Well, there was no technicality about it. The ship was armed, the ship was carrying military personnel that were being sent to Kiel for immediate placement aboard U-Boats when they arrived, the ship had soldiers aboard as well along with military equipment. It carried civilians as well, yet getting on the ship was their decision. Civilians were also placed aboard the Admiral Hipper, a German heavy cruiser, if she had been torpedoed and sunk would that also have been a war crime to U?
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
Yes, for both Germany and Russia.
I know full well that there were military personell among the refugees, and the ship was armed, that was due in part to the Gustloff's pre-1945 role as a barracks ship for the U-Boat Corps, and the panic caused by the rumors surrounding the Red Army's invasion of East Prussia (which was a part of Germany cut off from the rest by the Polish Corridor after World War I)
snakes3425 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
what ever you want to call it, it doesn't change that I feel it's still not right that for what ever reason you can't condemn or criticize the Russian Submarine for sinking the ship
snakes3425 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
I have stressed this time and again, I just don't think it's right that S-13 is let off the hook I've always been 100% behind the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but only until I feel a unit crossed the line, and even then I refuse to take up the Anti-War, America is Evil Banner because I won't let the actions of one hot headed unit become the actions of the everyone. with this video all I wanted was to restore dignigty and respect to the Gustloff Tragedy not ignight flame wars
snakes3425 2 months ago
@snakes3425 Honestly, I would suggest you go to your local recruiter and join the army, and then serve a tour in Afghanistan and then come back and tell us how you feel. Basically you are arguing that any ship carrying civilians should be off limits, whether a person knows or not. The problem then becomes that civilians then are used as Human Shields and this is what we are seeing now in the middle east, and let me tell you, most of us who have been out there are fed up with it.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@snakes3425 You want to blame Marinesko and yet he had no knowledge of what was on board the ship, and he was following his orders. As far as his military career, he was not in trouble with the Russians for being cruel or killing civilians, hell, many pilots were strafing civilians. Marinesko was in trouble for being a drunk, a womanizer and basically all around party animal who went missing the day his mission was to have started.
The political correctness that we fight under these days.....
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979
I don't subscribe to being politically correct, why do you think I blast Marinesko, because of the fact the Gustloff flew a swastika you can't condemn the Russians without touching off a flame war about something else. Given the choice of killing an eight year old kid who is charging at the 20 troopers under my command with an AK47 or handgrenade I'd rather have one family and a bunch of activists mad at me then 20 families because I tried to please the activists
snakes3425 2 months ago
@snakes3425 Then you have just proved my point here along with proving the views held by German survivors of the sinking as well. The Gustloff was carrying military personnel, U-boat crewmen as well as soldiers. Had the Gustloff made it to her destination, those sailors would have been placed on U-boats immediately and more allied ships might have been sunk.
Again I myself, would have sunk the Gustloff if I had been in command of the Submarine on the night of 1-30-1945
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 Again you are claiming the survivors of the war crime support your argument, but still offer no proof. Excuse me if I call bull when you say survivors would claim they deserved to die. And just because you would have sunk the ship and butchered the innocent yourself, that doesn't make it anymore right. It just makes you as bad as Marinesko.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago
@Ultimaton100 @Ultimaton100 Hitmann directed us all to the video days ago.... w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qdQHKa-Pw
Simply watch from 13:16 into the video and as Hitmann said, Heinz Schon states his feelings very clearly and even spells out why.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@snakes3425 ....is what is creating the problems and casualties are troops are suffering now. Even those of us who come home without physical injuries come home with mental ones caused by the stress of being on patrols where we have no idea who the enemy is.
War in and of itself is a crime. In the case of the Gustloff, who do you blame? Personally, I blame the Kriegsmarine itself for the conflicting orders and messed up chain of command on the ship. Yet....
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@snakes3425 ... the people who boarded the ship themselves are also to blame, they made their own choice to get on the ship, knowing all the risks. It's called taking responsibility for your own actions and decisions. Chances are they would have survived the war if they had simply stayed put.
As an officer myself, (US Army) I am telling you, I would have sunk the Gustloff had I been in Marinesko's position.
Chuckles2979 2 months ago
@Chuckles2979 The Red Army was on the move butchering and raping anything in their path. Millions of civilians in Eastern Europe, not just Germans mind you, were massacred by them towards the end of the war. The exact details get rather gruesome. So no, if they had stayed put they would have likely died anyway. If you had sunk the Gustloff you would have been charged in court with the war crime. Unlike Soviet Russia, the United States, for the most part, punishes its war criminals.
Ultimaton100 2 months ago