Discovering Religion - Part 9: Vestigial Organs

[redbulborb]

8:42 okay wait... so male and female humans are now different species or something? so men evolved from women and have vestigial nipples? yeah I don't see how men having nipples has anything to do with evolution.

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

No, males and females are different SEXES not species. A female body is the default body plan during human sexual development. If a male fetus does not produce anti-mullerian hormone and testosterone a XY male can will appear as a female. However, all males are born with nipples, although they serve no function. Therefore, it is speculated at one time the male sex could breastfeed their young, just like some species of fruit bat. But men have now lost this ability = vestigial.

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury Yeah I know that I WAS JOKING. Besides thats completely past the point that men having nipples has no relevance to evolution.

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

Of course the male nipple is evidence of evolution. All vestigial structures are.

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury No, its a speculation that one time the male sex could breastfeed their young. A conclusion reached by speculating, not a conclusion reached by evidence.

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

No, it is not speculation. I am in medical school. I understand human anatomy and physiology in great detail. Men can indeed lactate if exposed to high levels of prolactin, such as in a prolactinoma -- a tumor of the pituitary gland. Why should men have functioning mammary glands and lactiferous ducts if they were not at one time in the past able to breastfeed? Men have all the necessary structures, but they canont lactate because of inadequate prolactin. How do you explain this?

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury A female body is the default body plan during human sexual development. thats how I explain. Yes that is speculation, you just speculated something :) and you yourself already acknowledged that "it is speculated at one time the male sex could breastfeed their young"

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

Dont get bogged down by semantics. I misspoke in my initial rebuttal when I used the word "speculated", as there is a multitude of vestigial evidence that supports evolution, including the male nipple. Can we agree that structures in our body must have a function? E.g. your stomach is used for digestion. But men have no use for their mammary glands,lactiferous ducts, or nipples. Same thing with our OR receptors, muscles around our ears, and the appendix.

[andyzohoury]

@andyzohoury

Christians/Creationists believe God created all life to be perfect. But how do we explain the multitudes of useless/reduced structures found in the human body as well as in other animals? Vestigial organs are evidence of evolution because through natural selection structures that are no longer used are discarded. Biologists believe males of one of our early mammalian ancestors could breastfeed, but at some point women took over that role and human men have now lost this ability.

[andyzohoury]

@andyzohoury

I can see how you might perceive the structures used for lactation to be integral component of the male anatomy, and if we were only looking at this one isolated incident you might be correct. But in the grand scheme of things, taking into account how natural selection works and the sheer number of vestigial organs we find in ourselves and other animals, it only makes sense for the non-function structures found in the male beast are the result of evolution.

[andyzohoury]

@andyzohoury

Scientists make many similar predictions that more often than not are correct. Such as story of Darwin's month and the Comet Orchid. We can even predict anatomical complexity based on the predicted order of animal evolution. E.g. the complexity of the heart increases linearly as you move from Fish < Amphibians < Reptiles < Birds/Mammals. We cant go back in time to see for ourselves, but the evidence clearly supports the idea that ancestral male mammals could at one time breastfeed

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury what? no they don't in fact Christians actually believe the universe is temporary and imperfect. where did you even get that perfect non-sense from?

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury :) okay whatever XD

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

Youre right, it is nonsense. But the vast majority of Christians believe the Universe and all life was perfectly created by a perfect Creator. However, when Adam and Eve sinned against God they lost eternal life, bringing a curse of corruption and death upon the entire world and every subsequent generation. Thus, we're all born sinners and the purpose of Christ is to redeem the world of original sin. I discuss all of this in my series found on my youtube channel DiscoveringReligion

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury what!? the vast majority? A perfect being doesn't have to make something perfect otherwise they aren't really a perfect being.

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

Um, are you a Christian? I have been studying this subject for the better part of a decade, and most Christians are aware that all life became corrupted after the Fall. Humans were made perfect, in the image of God, but after we broke our covenant all life became imperfect, affected by a curse of corruption.If you wish to debate me further I suggest watching my series on my channel DiscoveringReligion, as I have explored all these points in detail. Then ask me any questions you like.

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury ...uh never mind, it seems nothing is understood.

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

Perhaps nothing is understood on your behalf, but I understand much on the topics of theology and process of evolution.

[redbulborb]

@andyzohoury wow oh wow! I am amazed at you! :D nothing is really understood! ...well that probably didn't help you understand. :/

[redbulborb]

2:48 no function? The pelvic bones of whales serve as attachments for the musculature associated with the penis in males and its homologue, the clitoris, in females. The muscle involved is known as the ischiocavernosus and is quite a powerful muscle in males. It serves as a retractor muscle for the penis in copulation and probably provides the base for lateral movements of the penis.

[andyzohoury]

@redbulborb

Yes, there are muscle attached to the pelvis, but the whale also has a partial femur which serves no function. The whale pelvis is much akin to the human coccyx, which was the site of attachment for a tail. Humans no longer have tails, but we still have a coccyx because its still an important structure for muscle attachment. This video has now be updated on a channel dedicated to my series -- as indicated by the big red annotated message that plays throughout the entire video.

[whosthechamp]

Great vid, glad I found your channel! I will now subscribe, hope you keep putting out new vids still!

[rachelspeaks]

thanks, that was very interesting

[kdixon7783B]

7:40 The missing link!

[usagicullen]

I once read somewhere that males have nipples because their gender is not determinded till 3 weeks in the whom or something.. is that true?

[andyzohoury]

Correct! We begin as female, despite the genotype definition of sex, i.e. XY male or XX female. Expression of male sexual organs requires the presence of 2 hormones, testosterone develops the wolffian duct becoming the internal male genitals and the anti-mullerian prevents the development of the mullerian duct, which would otherwise develop into the female genitals. Women require an absence of both hormones. Hence, we all have nipples because sex characteristics are not determined at conception.

[andyzohoury]

I guess you could say its an evolutionary backup plan, despite the fact that male nipples are useless structures. In fact, men even have mammary glands, although male physiology is not intended for lactation and breastfeeding.

[Illimitus]

Stunningly good.

[helltrackrider]

8:49 - Boob shot.

YES!

[Dzimboo1]

this was very revealing to me. that we have just the same muscles as animals just without function. Wow

[TheLostGuitarist]

Also the coccygeal muscle of the pelvic diaphragm. Formerly used for tail-wagging. In humans it isn't even contractible

[sergiomarchelli]

but it away and in the same tiome someone slaps you in the neck, your inside parts will cover the floor.

There is no thing without function. It can be thing we didn't understand it's function.

Anyways, no one have ever observed the creation of new organ, for example. Only decline.

[TheLostGuitarist]

no there is no function. A muscle's function is to contract, these muscles never get nerve connections, they never contract. It's just your own ignorance that makes you believe that there is a function. I've taken anatomy I'm in a top 50 U.S. medical school (M.D.) program, I think I know more about this than you. Theres many muscles in the human body that can't contract

also you can't develop a new organ overnight...so what are you talking about that's irrelevant...you don't understand evo

[sergiomarchelli]

OK, take them out? Cut the useless muscles and organs?

I don't care in what medical school you are, I've taken my anatomy too, but I know, quite well, that things are not that simple. Even the muscle can't contract, it doesn't mean, it doesn't have any function and purpose.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli yes we do take them out. I'd find it quite hard to believe you've taken a HUMAN anatomy course. Are you in medical school or nursing school or in a PHD program? I'd like to know really!

We DO cut out the muscles and it doesn't affect anything. You do realize the muscles have been observed to evolve out as well...less and less people are born with plantaris muscles. If you believe maxillary sinuses have a function you NEVER took anatomy!

[sergiomarchelli]

about some organs there are debates about are they useless. Of course if you need to passs the exams, you just say, what they want.

About the commented code in DNA, that doesn't mean we come from chimps, only that we have same platform, on wich we are developed, you can easily see this on software products;-).

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli no...you wouldn't leave unused code in software it makes it run SLOW what a dope! You don't understand computer software either! I PROGRAM AS WELL IN HIGH SCHOOL...YOU CUT OUT THE USELESS CODE

I've now caught you lying about your education in addition to exposing your lack of understanding of basic concepts like WHY UNUSED DNA PRESENTS MORE CHANCE FOR ERROR

I think any intelligent person can see that already so I'm going to go back to studying

[sergiomarchelli]

hahah

no man.

The unused code is commented, so it can't be used by the program.

Many functionalities are build, but some for some reasons are commented, or not used.

And it is not USELESS code, it is just not needed at the moment.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli wow you have no concept of how DNA works do you.

So you've never taken anatomy OR genetics...

unused DNA increases probability of splicing errors and is a common reason for mutation during transcription. Its entirely inefficient. GOD would not need to "comment his code" he is ALL POWERFUL He could REMEMBER IT

what a tool! Stop pretending you're educated and admit you're just talking out your ass!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli the most hilarious thing is when ignorant creationists like yourself try and talk about science they don't understand. They always speak in analogies!

It's not surprising, the unintelligent often can't grasp difficult concepts and need analogies to help them along. Its ok kid you can go back to middle school biology and learn genetics again without the analogies

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli you also like to make up what god can and cannot do as you go along! You're saying god has no infinite memory? I THOUGHT HE WAS ALL POWERFUL...WHY WOULD HE NEED TO "COMMENT" HIS GENETIC CODE

His memory would be infinite like his power!

Oh wait you're not a logical person and would have never thought of that...I forgot

[sergiomarchelli]

hahha, dude I haven't talked about any god.

And in fact I am not creationist.

"unused DNA increases probability of splicing errors and is a common reason for mutation during transcription"

So you say mutations are errors?

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli are you retarded....seriously...

error is a relative term it means the new transcription is not identical to the old. TAKE GENETICS BEFORE YOU ARGUE GENETICS. Any idiot with a 5th grade genetics education would know what error means.

Mutations only refer to a change.

Whether that error causes a mutation depends on if its in an intron or exon and whether repair mechanisms don't catch it

If the mutation occurs it could be FAVORABLE or UNFAVORABLE

[sergiomarchelli]

Hahaha.

Can you do this,

open the console and write such junk code (hiting accident buttons) and after that this code mutates to some useful one?

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli wow...you have zero concept of how genetics works....that is entirely irrelevant to DNA...

Its obvious you think DNA works on some magical process

YES WE OBSERVE USEFUL MUTATIONS ALL THE TIME

Bacteria evolve to gain DRUG RESISTANCE

Humans gain mutations that increase hemoglobin leading to better athletic performance (LANCE ARMSTRONG HAS A RARE MUTATION IN THIS)

Go google: Beneficial mutations in the human genome there are HUNDREDS of KNOWN BENEFICIAL MUTATIONS

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli the fact you honestly believe genes work like computer code is HILARIOUS

keep using your 2nd grade analogies its adorable!

I see how far the italian education system has come! Teaching students genes work like computer code when they're nothing alike! Computer code is written as LINES it isnt TRANSCRIBED

DO YOU KNOW WHAT TRANSCRIPTION AND TRANSLATION ARE

that is not how computer code works! what a dumbass!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli this is why I'm glad I live in america and not italy. Here our schools teach us properly how things work. In italy they teach things based on analogies and their student's believe those analogies are 100% transferrable. They graduate with zero understanding of basic biological concepts and only know how to compare biological mechanisms to man-made objects!

Way to go!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli the fact is if you did 5 seconds of research you would know that there are thousands of documented genetic mutations leading to positive adaptations. Your ignorance must be bliss...to think you actually thought you were educated....hilarious!

[sergiomarchelli]

hihi positive?

But no new organs developed.

Adaptation is one, thing, new stuff is other.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli I just told you we've seen new organs developed. Go look up rainforest speciation...there's documentation of many new organs developing.

Again though organ development would not occur overnight, it would take many many many adaptations for that to occur

You keep falling back on your failed argument. You are a testament to the lack of education in italy!

Theres a reason people in science understand evolution...and why unintelligent people like you do not

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli humans do not have lots of new mutations though because of DNA REPAIR mechanisms that maintain the original sequence of DNA.. you don't have any idea how genetics works and its obvious why you don't understand any of this. The scientific community has seen organs...entire new species even, develop. And you havent.

Why do you think that is? Id say its your lack of education

Oh well I guess its not your fault you were brought up in a country with crappy schools schools

[sergiomarchelli]

so there is mechanisms that maintain the original sequence, so human species remain humans and can't evolve into other specie.

Thanks.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli who said anything about humans evolving into other species? In fact modern medicine has made it so adaptations aren't even that necessary for humans...

We're talking about animals evolving into humans what the hell is wrong with you?

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli it is very likely humans will remain HUMAN for quite some time but other animals speciate all the time. Have you looked up rainforest speciation yet? No? Didn't think so. Go back to your country's shit schools. They shouldn't even be called schools...they're more like italian day-care centers

[sergiomarchelli]

no, they remain the species they are.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli wow...you have no understanding of anything!

Did you read ANYTHING I just said?

SPECIATION IN THE RAINFOREST

LACK OF REPAIR MECHANISMS THAT HUMANS HAVE IN MANY ANIMALS

tell me now do you even know the difference between DNA and RNA? Which came 1st? What is a nucleotide? DO you know what a transcriptional activator is?

Do you know how a gain of function mutation occurs?

You don't even understand the processes you are talking about!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli SPECIATION IN THE RAINFOREST YOU DUMB SHIT

people have already WITNESSED evolution. Its not a guess

LIFE's FIRST SPARK CREATED IN LABORATORY: RNA COMPONENTS SYNTHESIZED THEMSELVES FROM BASIC CHEMICALS THAT WOULD HAVE EXISTED IN PRIMORDIAL EARTH

ANIMALS DO NOT HAVE COMPLEX REPAIR SYSTEMS LIKE HUMANS, THEIRS ARE MUCH LESS ADVANCED AND MUTATE MORE OFTEN.

THERE IS NO MODERN MEDICINE IN THE WILD EITHER

wtf don't you understand.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli I hope all italians aren't as stupid as you. if they are your country is doomed

[sergiomarchelli]

tell me one specie that we observed that turn to other one. Observed. Also observed creation of organ?

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli see now heres the problem. To you observed means someone literally sat there and watched 100 years of evolution straight. To a normal human being it means researchers observed populations systematically and watched evolution occur SLOWLY

Animals becoming new species of animal:

Drospholia Flies evolving into new species of fly for instance

however you will say "OH BUT ITS STILL A FLY!" because youre a retard

see you cant jump a PHYLUM all at once (do you know what a phylum

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli is little boy?) we have observed species of lizard become separated and within a few decades come back together and now they are two new species that can't mate with each other. are they still reptiles? yes because you can't jump a whole phylum in one generation

HOWEVER look at archaeopteryx: A REPTILE WITH FEATHERS

now an intelligent person would know feathers are the same thing as scales, with a different signaling pathway in the genome...

as for new organs:

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli you can't observe a WHOLE ORGAN AT ONCE ( of course thats how YOU think it works because once again you are retarded) but we have observed for instance species of snail gain the ability to use VENOM...a new phenotype...the beginnings of new organs (venom glands) etc.

so organs are actually just a conglomerate of cells that have the same or similar function. when we observe species gain the ability to make new things such as insulin (bacteria) or venom, it means they have

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli gained function that was not there before.

How do you think all of the insulin in the world is made? We got bacteria to evolve into new types of bacteria that can now make insulin. How? through an insertion mutation (the gene for insulin was left floating around in a plasmid (a piece of DNA) and the bacteria swallowed it and incorporated it into their own DNA).

we also observe people gain new limbs.

Polydactyly, 6 fingers is AUTOSOMAL DOMINANT

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli in fact there is an island where everyone has evolved to have 12 fingers....

I'm tired of arguing with you, the epitomy of a pathetic uneducated fool from a country with no education system.

This is why I will be a doctor, and you will be a bum sitting on youtube trying to argue things you can't even comprehend.

[sergiomarchelli]

No, you just can't tell me anything, because there is no such observation. Little changes, yes, but BIGer, from one specie to other is just theory.

Maybe you know your lessons (some of them) but that is just not enough, mr smartass.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli there is such observation I just told you about it look it up theres hundreds of research papers on it. you're just too scared to go look it up yourself and see you've been wrong this entire time! WHAT A JOKE! Go back to your shit italian education system!

[sergiomarchelli]

12 fingers? HAHAHHA.

Yes it is mutation, but not mutation leading to new organ. Like just new finger.

!2 fingers, HAHAHAH. What is this Island, the bikini island, they blow it with the nuke?

HAHAHA.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli no its actually somewhere near india I just forgot the name. Keep laughing! In the end you're still wrong, I'm still going to be more educated than you in life, I'm still going to be a doctor and you're still going to be an uneducated fool!

You're afraid to even LOOK at the global rate of polydactyly!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli I just explained to you an organ is just a compilation of cells doing the same function

we have observed new venom cells mutate...technically you could call that an organ. Do you even know what the definition of organ is?

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli Come on sergio....whats the definition of an organ?

[sergiomarchelli]

I mean like new type of organ, not the existing ones. You say there is evolutions, maybe new stuff is coming, ot it isn't?

Even if there are 12 fingers, it is not for example new ultrared bluetooth buton on the face, so they can connect each other. HAHAHA.

You are so lame, and as I see, you don't have any work. You are keeping to answer and answer, maybe you need to proove you are smart? That is interesting, maybe your parents are pushing you too much for studing. U need some rest and pills

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli actually I'm on winter break...

but you still haven't answered...WHAT IS AN ORGAN...what is the definition of an organ.

do you even know?

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli you also do realize large scale evolution occurs SLOWLY over MILLIONS OF YEARS...if a brand new fully functioning species appeared all of a sudden that would DISPROVE evolution...

you don't seem to even know the definitions of the very concepts you argue! PATHETIC!

[sergiomarchelli]

these millions of years cannot be observed. This means billions of skeletons about 1 specie, which are never found (of course there are some conditions for a skeleton to be preserved).

The millions of years is just an excuse.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli thats not an excuse dumbass thats how long it would take! IF YOU OBSERVED EVOLUTION RAPIDLY IT WOULD DISPROVE EVOLUTION

if you saw a dog give birth to some entirely new species out of nowhere one day that would DISPROVE EVOLUTION

you have such a lack of understanding its not even funny!

AND WE HAVE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS

just for humans alone we have a few hundred. Do you know how little chance there is for fossils to be preserved?

[sergiomarchelli]

"AND WE HAVE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS"

And we have found some of them alive. Hahaha.

Also what mean transitional fossils? We have such transitional-like animals, which doesn't seems to change just because the are perfect for it's habitat.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli wtf are you talking about

you're still here? You still haven't figured out why what you're saying makes absolutely no sense? Damn you really are dense!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli you're always good for a laugh! You have the scientific knowledgebase of a 3 year old and you try and argue against something you don't even SOMEWHAT understand! HILARIOUS! keep it up!

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli So you haven't taken genetics or anatomy I think we made that clear.

We see beneficial mutations all the time...but the error I am talking about in splicing is NOT A MUTATIONAL ERROR YOU IDIOT. DO YOU KNOW WHAT SPLICING IS

An error in splicing leads to a SOMATIC MUTATION. SOMATIC MUTATIONS CAUSE CANCER YOU DOPE. mutations leading to viable new traits don't occur in fully developed people they occur in the germ cells, in gametes, due to mosaicism

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli your lack of education and bold faced lie claiming otherwise is pretty hilarious.

You don't seem to know the difference between a splicing error and a replication error! You don't even know the difference between a SOMATIC or GERMLINE MOSAICISM

go educate yourself before you argue with someone smarter than you

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli the reason there is no benefit to extra DNA is the whole act of splicing is a risky procedure and is very complex. It is a common cause for LOSS OF GENETIC MATERIAL OR ALTERED FRAME READING

DO you know what altered frames are? Frameshifts? It screws up the entire code all at once if large and if small can lead to overproduction of information

a mutation that is beneficial would not occur in somatic cells...they are not passed on. Only gametes are

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli we observe people born without these vestigial structures all the time and they have no loss of function.

not only the plantaris muscle, there are many many others such as the ear muscles that have no contractile ability. You don't move your ears. Most people are not even born with the muscles anymore because they're useless

Also why is 95% of our genome vestigial...its INACTIVE...We have ENTIRE SEQUENCES THOUSANDS OF BASEPAIRS LONG IDENTICAL TO CHIMPS and theyre inactive

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli why would our DNA contain 45% of its code for inactive retroviral-like transposons that are never ever activated. EVER.  In fact they're spliced out all the time and increase the chance of error (more splicing = more opportunity for error).

So not only are there muscles without any function that we are literally observing being evolved out, but MOST of our DNA is simply remnants of inactive DNA from our ancestors (sequences are identical but ours are never translated)

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli also the hesselbach's triangle...an area of weak abdominal fascia below the ASIS. If you've taken anatomy you must know about this. Why would a design purposely include a weak spot in the abdominal fascia open to herniation? It is one of the most common places for hernia repair and has no function (it is WEAK fascia that's COUNTER productive).

Your lack of understanding of the human body is pretty evident...maybe you took fish anatomy or something

[TheLostGuitarist]

@sergiomarchelli oh and no one has observed creation of a new organ? SO youve never studied rainforest speciation? pretty hilarious that you actually believe that. Shows how little ecology you know!

[ScienceWinsEveryTime]

There's another lesser known vestigial (or at least wasteful) structure in mammals, including humans. its the recurrent laryngeal nerve, which controls swallowing and speechIn our ancestors it was a straight shot from the brain to the throat, but it passed in front of the aorta. Now our aorta has shifted inferiorly, yet the nerve is essential and could not be broken, & is much longer as it has to loop back up to reach the throat. In giraffes it's 15 ft. long, a full 14 ft. longer than necessary

[sergiomarchelli]

ok, what happens if you cut it?

Are there any experiments?

Because I don't think there are usless organs, only things we didn't figure out.

[TheLostGuitarist]

@ScienceWinsEveryTime yes you are right about the recurrent laryngeal nerve (a favorite on anatomy tests)

Its long pathway is just asking for trouble and is entirely unnecessary. A DESIGNED being would have the nerve branch up higher on everyone.

A similar case is in the Cranial Nerve IV the trochlear nerve that has a long pathway that is entirely unnecessary and leaves it open for injury (one of the most injured cranial nerves actually)

[Rambl3On]

Great Video, I did not know about the vestigial purpose of goosebumps

[June28July]

Beautiful! Thank you my scientific comrade! :)