GO ON LEE STROBEL, ANYTHING YOU SAY PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE YOU, EVEN IF YOU SAY GOD IS 4 PERSON MANIFEST IN 1, THEY WILL STILL ACCEPT, DONT WORRY, MY QUESTION IS DOES GOD HAS A NATIONALITY, MOTHER, OR BROTHER etc. IF YES ARE WE WRIGHT TO SAY MOTHER OF GOD OR BROTHER OF GOD?
Logic: how can jesus be resurrected if his body is gone? souls dont need bodies to be resurrected . nd Jesus prove to his disciples that he was still alive and not a spirit
Too many of you people who make it a hobby to post comments on YouTube are blinded by ignorance. You try so hard to convince yourselves that you are right, yet do not realize that some of your arguments make no sense at all. Open your mind and look on the situation objectively, and the truth becomes very clear.
Too many of you people who make it a hobby to post comments on YouTube to try and convince yourselves you are right are blinded by ignorance. If you would look at the situation objectively you would see the truth.
I think that the only way that the majority of prophesy would be impressive would be if the New Testament writers weren't familiar with the old testament. If they had never read it or been influenced by it, then yes Lee, it would be impressive. Unfortunately for you though, they were more than a little familiar with the OT therefore the details they wrote/early church compiled are hardly astounding.
@Toky0Boy I have! Wow what an enlightening program. History channel would never lie! I used to be into UFO's until I woke up! Jesus is the Truth and the only way to heaven. Repent of your sins and follow Jesus. Read your Bible too! It IS the TRUTH!!!
Preaching ignorants why don't chrisitans actually study the research for themselfs instead of listening to preachers that are deceptive and poor at analyizing evidence obviously they make money off this propaganda so of course they will use deceptive assertions and seem convincing to ignorant members.
@wachnathan First of all Jesus said many will come in my name but it is not him, my church tells you to know your bible and to study it cause if you go off what people tell you, your in trouble. The devil is a liar and he got religions out there blinding people and they like what there saying cause it sounds good to them, I am an apostolic christian and we go and live by the whole bible best we can. Have you ever got the holy ghost?
@callindisciple Belief in god is not my issue only the bible because its obviously created by egotistacal men besides every comic book needs a villian thus we have the devil that god can't or wont do anything about he just randomly does what he wants and god can't stop him? What a bunch of nonsense that a devil trapped in hell can still have power outside of it lol and your claiming that your god is a loveing being that cares but yet he allows a villian to do what it wants to us? come on.
@wachnathan wow lol a comic book, people do bad things to people who listen to the devil he cant make you do anything, its our own choice to do what ever we want
@callindisciple I see nothing wrong with calling it a comic book being it has so much fiction involved in it, honestly god only working with people of the dessert and ignoring the rest of the world is nuts and arrogant of the jews to think there the center of the universe is pure BS and i reject it on that bases alone. If god indeed helped write this book then it must be pretty unperfect giving all the error and mistakes and confussion of this bible which created more choas then any other book.
@callindisciple To think that your god gives us ability then says we can't use it or gives us free will then makes us slaves for christ its a confussing none logical system that degrades us and makes us feel guilty for a crime we didn't commit, its pure insane that only a warped mind would create. God maybe real but am certain its not a christian or what or we think it might be.
@callindisciple Forgot to mention that Lee Strobel became christain because of his wife and that fact that he can't explain how Jesus rose up from the dead instead wondering how they could make up such a story its all based on scanty hear say evidence that even Rome didn't seem to be all that impressed with at the time is so convincing to you it just blows me away. lol
@callindisciple Yup! John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD...And the WORD BECAME FLESH(JESUS), and DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." :-)
@wachnathan You have no idea what living for christ is all about cause you are so ignorant, you think as a slave as chained up but its far from that I used to live worldly and that life style sucks people these dont know how to deal with there problems so they just go around shooting people the world does not know how to deal with problems
@callindisciple Living for a man which you never met or saw with bad evidence to support him is nuts am sorry your giving your short little life over to a story writen by men who have never actually met Yashua themselves its all hear say. This movment with all do respect is looney and doesn't make sense with reality. Ignorant people are ones who follow a world view with scanty evidence and with little justifacation i at least am open to all ideas your not who's close minded now?
@callindisciple Living for a man which you never met or saw with bad evidence to support him is nuts am sorry your giving your short little life over to a story writen by men who have never actually met Yashua themselves its all hear say. This movment with all do respect is looney and doesn't make sense with reality. Ignorant people are ones who follow a world view with scanty evidence and with little justifacation i at least am open to all ideas your not who's close minded now?
@callindisciple Christ Jesus breaks the law of contradiction he is the son of human error he brings love with a knife behind he's back he brings a sea of confussion creates division among human beings, nothing has brought more choas on earth then theism and now we have a brother and sister Islam and mormonism. We also have creationism that tells us science is bogus ya you guys are going backwards thinking backwards you guys all suck. The bible is a "man" made book no question about it.
@callindisciple I feel bad for my comment but am not one to back down from my feelings i know for a fact chrisitans don't wanna hear what deists or atheists have to say you only hear what you wanna hear. Your prime objective is to convert me not debate me i have no intention of converting you only making you aware your view is not agreed by all no disrespect here.
@wachnathan I hear you it is hard to believe that this book is god inspired but its by faith I believe in this book and it is a man who wrote but god inspired and the devil is behind some of those religions the founder of jehova witness was a freemason and some people just dont know how to read the bible and pick and choose what to believe in, whats so confusing about the bible?have you ever gotten the holy ghost?have you ever been to a apostolic church?
Yeshua is the son of God, the firt born of all creation, who created all under the direction of God, who begged God to remove the cup, to forgive his his killers, when God had forsaken him, who siad God is greater than him, who said why call me good, only God is good, who told Mary not to touch him after his assention from hell in his resurected form for he had not assended to God yet. He is my mediator between me and God, high priest and sacrifice to cover my sins. I pray in his name to God.
If jesus(Peace be upon him) was god,then Moses(Peace be upon him) was biger god?and Adam(Peace be upon him) was the first God.Jesus(Peace be upon him) had to eat,sleep, go to bathroom,was born,passed away.These are human quality.He also had god's quality.He raised people from death.Before him others did similar thing.King solaiman(Peace be upon him) used to fly,Moses(Peace be upon him) separated water of nile.Are they god too?Forget all these,try to find god in your heart that's where god lives.
@roadway2peace Jesus is God, it is beyond doubt, there is sufficient evidence to believe so and therefore my conclusion logically and inescapably would have to be that Jesus is God.
@28664miguel Based upon what? what you have heard? Dont you even know that one person wrote the whole Old and new testament? Think about that one for awhile and realize that no one has ever been able to figure out any riddle to the good book, until now''' One cannot know what One cannot see' any "belief" is something that cannot be proven, so what is any point within having any crutch?
Jesus never said I am GOD or Warship me ..John chp-5 v-30 "I can't of my self do nothing . As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, for i seek not my will, but the will of my father "....anyone who said (i seek not my will but the will of all mighty God is a Muslim) ... Jesus was a Muslim. Jesus never claim divinity.. PROOF ME WRONG ..THERE IS NO A SINGLE WORD IN UR BOOK THAT JESUS SAID I AM GOD OR WORSHIP ME .
@maxamed4yare Jesus did claim to be God using the term "Son of Man"in the Gospels, which is a reference Daniel 7:13-14. He forgave sin in Matthew 9:3. He said in John 8:58 that "Before Abraham was, I am." in the next verse, some of the people were going to stone him because when he said 'I am', they understood that Jesus was claiming to be God & he backed it up with the miracles he did & that he rose from the dead.
@bigmike5989 Didn't Lazarus raise from the dead too? Is Lazarus God as well? What about the ascension of Elias, who didn't even experience death. Isn't Elias more God than Jesus for not even going through the pains of death? This based on your comment of course...
@happyraver1958 You are playing semantics because Lazarus never claimed to be God & he never said that he was going rise from the dead, but these are things that Jesus said about himself. Secondly, Jesus told Lazarus to come forth & that's how he came back to life, under the authority of Jesus. Elijah wasn't taken into heaven under his own authority & he didn't claim to be God either. Even though both did happen, you haven't proven that Jesus denied his deity.
@bigmike5989 What I'm trying to say is that being raised from the dead does not prove divinity, claiming divinity is far from proving it. Claiming authority does not give it either; the authority system is one that evolved along with our society (as all other social animals have a similar authority system) and we mimic it in the religious aspect as well. Authority, divinity, resurrection are all concepts coined by humankind, not the other way around!
@happyraver1958 Actually it does prove that Jesus rose from the dead because not only did Jesus claim to be God, he also predicted his own death, burial & resurrection, in which he mentioned the responsible parties that would be involved in his execution, no other person besides Jesus has ever made those two statements & then have it backed up eyewitnesses & ancient Christian & non-Christian writings.
@bigmike5989 Hi again BigMike. Several other posts here claim just the opposite; that Jesus never claimed to be God and that he never asked to be worshiped. But that's besides the point. If there is any proof of the Jesus depicted by the Bible on this planet, other than writings (whose authors are both known and unknown), no solid evidence of such event has been found. Many claims have been made by the Catholic church which only raise more questions than provide answers.
@happyraver1958 There is solid evidence Jesus claim to be God because Matthew 9:2 Jesus said to a cripple man that his sins was forgiven & in the next verse the Jewish religious leaders realized that he was claiming that he is God. Then Jesus said to them in verse 6 "that the Son of man hath power (or authority) to forgive sin" now the fact Jesus made that statement means that he was claiming to be God & he backed it with the miracles he did & his own resurrection.
@bigmike5989 All your quotes are coming from the Bible. You are making several assumptions here. You assume the Bible is the absolute and undeniable truth in spite of all its contradictions and it's arcaic idealisms of a god. Other people have claimed to perform miracles, as many illusionists throughout history have done and other placebo effects that faith has had over the history of humankind (miraculous healings). I'm looking for evidence outside of writings for his divinity and existence...
@happyraver1958 Pliny the Younger (61 AD-112 AD) who was a non-Christian Roman government official wrote to the Roman emperor Trajan. In this letter he wrote that Christians "meet on a fixed day before dawn & sang responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god." Lucias of Samosata (125 AD-180 AD) a Syrian satirist also wrote about Jesus. He said that Christians "Revered him as a god," & "Next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship him, the man they crucified in Palestine because he
@happyraver1958 (continue): introduce this new cult into the world." He also said that Christians "From the that they are converted, & deny the gods of Greece, & worship the the crucified sage, & live after his laws." In a third passage he wrote that Christians "Took him for a God, accepted his laws." & "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduce novel their rites, & was crucified on that account.
@happyraver1958 Both Pliny the Younger & Lucias of Samosata confirmed what the gospels about Jesus claiming to be God because they wrote that Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Plus Lucias also confirmed what gospels have written about Jesus' death, burial, & resurrection. Christian & Non-Christian scholars consider these passages from these two ancient historians authentic considering that they, like other ancient Non-Christian historians, were very hostile to Christianity.
@bigmike5989 Cult: A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. Back then, Christianity was a cult because it was regarded weird since they didn't follow the mainstream religion of the time. This probably tells us how early christians started and how they were regarded, it does not prove the divinity of Jesus at all.
@happyraver1958 Lucian was a Non-Christian satirist so scholars who studied his writings about Christianity will tell you that he would call it a cult because he was hostile toward Christians in his writings, so this argument doesn't have a leg to stand on either
@bigmike5989 What may seem strange or negative to some people (like Christians see Islam as a bad religion, overall and vice-versa) like for the word "cult" it's just a word to others. To me, cult is just a word that has a meaning like any other word. You are implyin a negative connotation to the word "cult" and I am not. Christianity WAS a cult because it was strange to other people who didn't believe in it. In the end, this confirms that the Christian religion had its beginnings...
@bigmike5989 (cont) a long time ago, but it does nothing to demonstrate how Jesus is actually god just because people who were against it and considered it a cult back in ancient times. What you have quoted so far only proves the possible beginnings of the Christian religion, but it fails to prove Jesus' divinity. My point is and will always be: There is no god! God was invented by people to exercise control over the masses. In my dictionary, that's called dictatorship and I'm pro-democracy.
@happyraver1958 Like I said before the writings by Pliny the Younger & Lucian of Samosata have been proven to be true by Christian & Non-Christian scholar to be authentic & they back up what's written in the gospels. Plus Christians didn't have control over anyone because they were being put to death in brutal, torturous way for saying that Jesus rose from the dead. No one will knowingly die for a lie. This is another argument that doesn't have a leg to stand on.
@bigmike5989 Let's say Pliny the Younger & Lucian of Samosata are true and they actually considered the beginnings of the the Christian religion a cult (which later on grew to a full-blown religion, who obviously exercise control over the US by calling it a "Christian nation" and US Dollars stating "In God we trust"). Do you believe the Quran to be true? The obvious answer is no, however, suicide bombers are more than willing to die, FOR A LIE !! So yes, people die for a lie all the time.
@happyraver1958 If Christianity wasn't true, the Roman government & the Jewish religious leaders would have exposed as a lie & they would have wrote about but no ancient writings from the 1st century that disputes what is written in the gospels accounts.
@bigmike5989 Wasn't it the Jewish religious leaders who considered Jesus blasphemic for calling himself god? Wasn't they who crucified him? They did expose him as a heretic and a liar from the get-go, they even tried to kill him when he was a kid, according to your own Bible, so now you cannot tell me they admitted everything he said was true. Please explain.
@happyraver1958 But Jesus responded to them by saying, "But that ye may know that Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sin." (Matthew 9:6a, Mark 2:10). Jesus referred to himself as Son of man when he said that, which alluding Daniel 7:13-14 where Daniel recorded a vision he had about a divine figure who approached God himself & had universal authority & an everlasting, who is worshiped by people from different countries. By calling himself Son of man, Jesus was saying that he is God.
@happyraver1958 Herod the Great was a paranoid king who killed anyone who posed a threat to him. He killed some of his own family members as a matter of fact. You're overlooking the fact that Jesus was claiming to be God at his trial also but that doesn't prove that he was a heretic, taking into consideration that the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus has been proven to be a historical event
@happyraver1958 you are as indoctrinated as suicide bombers because you analyze this through religion whereas it is contrary to islam. Democracies you love lock you up in the lies but you do not do anything to get out. the Truth, it's not that simple...
@bigmike5989 Your arguments so far have been the ones not standing because they are easily refuted by just plain logic and common sense. I have respect for you personally as a fellow human being, but I cannot believe what you believe, sorry bigmike.
@happyraver1958 You're accusing me of not using logic & common sense when you're not the one using logic & common sense. I have quoted ancient Non-Christian sources, which Christian & Non-Christian New Testament scholars have considered authentic, the prove that their writings back up what the gospel account say about Jesus & what he said & did and you have not provided one shred of evidence that have proven otherwise.
@bigmike5989 The gospels and the non-Christian writers both agree on how christianity started, only the first claim Jesus' deity, not the second writers. The non-Christian writers are accusing early Christians that they have regarded Jesus "as a god", which obviously does not prove that Jesus is a god; they're just claiming their disprove of the newly-created (by humans) Christian religion. Do I really need to prove my point further? How is this not logic and common sense?
@happyraver1958 It goes back to what the Christian believed about Jesus, so it is logical to assume based on the gospels that Jesus claimed to be God backed it up with his miracles & resurrection.
@bigmike5989 My every posting contains information I found easily on the Internet by just using Google and simple keywords, like searching the meaning of certain words. Is that not evidence? How does throwing the burden of proof on my shoulders prove that Jesus is god? Now I'm really confused!!
@happyraver1958 What I'm asking you to prove that Jesus denied saying that he was God & that he didn't come back from the dead based on the available information. Based on the information that's available, there is evidence to show that Jesus did in fact rose from the dead, verifying his claim to be God.
@bigmike5989 So, the people who were putting early Christians to death, actually confirmed the divinity of Jesus? How does that make sense? If they confirmed that Jesus was god, why would they prosecute his followers? This is just plain weird.
@happyraver1958 it is a typical argument of the atheist. They don't believe in God, they still waiting for a proof and they can not prove that it does not exist. you are worse than the Jewish scholars at Christ time.
@Indiana0777 It's never going to end is it? The theist always want to switch the burden of proof back to the atheist, but it's simple: Steve: There is no chair in that corner, you're imagining it. Bob: Really? Prove it!! Steve: How can I prove the inexistence of the chair? Bob: You said there was no chair when I KNOW there is one, I can feel it!! And you're saying there's no chair, prove it!! Steve: Well, PROVE to me there is one!! And it doesn't end from there. Such a retarded conversation.
@happyraver1958 you are less enthusiastic about the question of the existence of God sv the divinity of Jesus. I understand it is very difficult to prove the absence of something, so what is the evidence that God does not exist ? maybe do you have a rational explanation of the creation of the universe? And how man was created?
@Indiana0777 It seems quite contradicting to me to ask for proof of the inexsitence of something. I'll attempt to do it anyway. The evidence we have so far, is not definitive of the existence of any deity, the best thing theists have is the gaps in science, which our generation may not live long enough before those are explained too and god will have less gaps to fill. Filling a gap in an explanation with a god doesn't prove existence, it only proves our gullibility for believing in one.
@happyraver1958 Lucian of Samosata who is a 2nd century Greek satirist who wrote that Christians were worshiping Jesus as God. He wrote "they still worship him today, the man in Palestine who was crucified." Pliny the Younger who wrote in 111 AD that Christians "sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god." Based on these two ancient Non-Christian writers, they are backing up what the gospels in saying that Jesus' claim of being God. So your "God in the gaps" theory has no basis in fact.
@bigmike5989 You have already dismissed the Quran as a reliable source for facts or information, which mentions Jesus many times, more times than Muhammad himself. For millions of Muslims, this is fact and to them, the Quran is not a mythical book. I feel the same way about both pieces of literature: The Bible and the Quran. They're both mythical books that are too far away from reality but were the source and inspiration for many other literary works, even ancient ones.
@happyraver1958 Christian & Non-Christian scholars don't consider the Qu'ran a reliable source for the life of Jesus because the New Testament dated in the 1st century & the Qu'ran is dated in the 7th century. The thing about the Bible is that the writers used the names of people who existed.
@happyraver1958 The Quran and the Bible are not book to follow society. It is the opposite. People are too far away from God wishes and guidance. That is why Islam is criticized. and Christians have forsaken the commandments a long time ago.
@happyraver1958 The placebo effect is not a good argument because psychosomatic healing takes time & they often come back. The miracles of Jesus were spontaneous, plus he cured lifelong blindness & leprosy for which the placebo effect theory isn't likely. Plus he raise people from the dead, so the placebo effect doesn't work here or with any other of the miracles that Jesus did. So you're entire argument don't have a leg to stand on.
@bigmike5989 The only source of information you've presented so far are ancient writings from different authors, known and unknown. People who may or may have not lived on this world; authors who could or could have not invented what they wrote. If Jesus ever existed on this planet, could have been an ordinary man with extraordinary intelligence who fooled the people of his time and who is fooling you now. Or, he may have been the product of the writer's vivid imagination...
@happyraver1958 Your logic is not based on the facts because ancient Christian & Non-Christian writings, from Tacitus to the Jewish Talmud, all mention that Jesus did exist & that he performed miracles, confirming the gospel account. Your "Jesus never existed" theory is not based on history because none of the ancient Non-Christian writers never accused the Christians making up the resurrection story. So your theory is the only thing that is a product of an vivid imagination.
@bigmike5989 Will you please provide evidence, other than ancient writings of the existence of the Jesus depicted in the Bible? Please understand that ancient writings are not reliable due to the fact that most of the material was lost in the crusades because it was considered "heretic" along with thousands of people who were considered witches. So far, we know about Jesus because of writings, not because of evidence. Obi-wan Kenobi and Queen Amidala also appear in many later books...
@happyraver1958 Christians were not responsible for killing people who were claiming to be witches that is a big time myth with no basis in facts. Wherever you got that from is unreliable at best & has proven to be false. Yes the Crusades did happen, but there nothing to suggest historically that documents that was considered were burned. You are playing semantics.
@bigmike5989 Are they real too because they appear in many contemporary books? Really? So we're also to say that Zeus and the hell described in the other ancient mythological books are just as real as Jesus and the Trinity. Things are holy because humanity considers them holy, god is a creation of humankind, not the other way around. So, unless there's verifyable evidence outside of ancient writings, Jesus is still a character and a myth.
@happyraver1958 The gospel accounts mentions people & places that actually existed because of the ancient writings, the oral traditions of ancient Israel & archaeology that historians have studied. Based of what the New Testament scholars have studied concerning Jesus, they have determined that Jesus did exist & that his resurrection is a actual historic event. You have not proven that Jesus is a myth.
@bigmike5989 Will you please share a link or the name of the documentary or book which confirms your claims about Jesus? I'd love to take a look. I've got Netflix, and what I've seen so far are attempts to prove Jesus and a long list of apologists that cannot get their story straight. That is hardly evidence, but if you have some material I could use, please share it. Again, nobody can prove the inexistence of something or someone, we can only prove some things and rationalize others.
@happyraver1958 There are some current Non-Christian philosophers & scholars say that Jesus never existed but you have to look at the ancient writers & historians wrote when it comes to Jesus. Tacitus, a ancient Roman historian, wrote in his book called Annals that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus." Both of them are mentioned in the gospels (Tiberius in Luke 2:1, the name Augustus is used in the KJV)
@bigmike5989 I am looking into the writings of Tacitus and I've already queued plenty of documentaries from different sources concerning this issue. I will get back to you guys in probably a few weeks. Let's make something clear though, some people want to believe Jesus existed, some others don't believe it (like myself). After looking at the evidence we can prove the Jesus the man; now, I want to see someone proving Jesus the god!!
@happyraver1958 Lucian of Samosata & Pliny the Younger both wrote in their writings Christians worship Jesus as God. The question is why would put that in their writings about Jesus? The first reason is that Jesus really did exist & that he claim to be God.
@bigmike5989 (cont) But to have a dude that came to this world and claimed to be god and be able to forgive sin (like if that existed!) and to claim that he is Emmanuel as the prophets predicted (vaguely) and then be crucified does not make him god. Lucian of Samosata & Pliny the Younger wrote about this Jesus character and dispised him for claiming to be god and dispised his followers for worshiping him "like if he was a god", which sounds more like mockery than proof!
@happyraver1958 One thing you have to keep in mind is that they were not Christians so their quotes makes sense in that regard. You have to explain why, even though they were very hostile toward Christianity, they were confirming what's written in the gospel. The reason is that Jesus did exist, he claimed to be God & he backed it up by rising from the dead. The things you have said has failed to explain that
@bigmike5989 How else can I explain it? Some people believed Jesus was god and they worshiped him like one, the historian simply wrote about Jesus' disciples behavior, which he didn't approve one bit. This proves that back in the historian's time, there were disciples of Jesus who fervently regarded Jesus as a god, that's it!! It proves the existence of Jesus' disciples, not the existence, crucifiction and ascencion.
@happyraver1958 In Matthew 20:20, the mother of James & John came & worshiped Jesus but he didn't rebuke for doing so. In Luke 17:11-19, theses verses mention Jesus healed 10 lepers & one of them, realized that he was healed went back to Jesus. Verse 16 say that this guy "fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan." That is a act of worship. Then in the next Jesus asked him "Were there not 10 cleansed? But where are the the nine?" This guy wasn't rebuked either
@happyraver1958 In Matthew 20:20, the mother of James & John came & worshiped Jesus but he didn't rebuke for doing so. In Luke 17:11-19, theses verses mention Jesus healed 10 lepers & one of them, realized that he was healed went back to Jesus. Verse 16 say that this guy "fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan." That is a act of worship. Then in the next Jesus asked him "Were there not 10 cleansed? But where are the the nine?" This guy wasn't rebuked either
@happyraver1958 In Matthew 20:20, the mother of James & John came & worshiped Jesus but he didn't rebuke for doing so. In Luke 17:11-19, theses verses mention Jesus healed 10 lepers & one of them, realized that he was healed went back to Jesus. Verse 16 say that this guy "fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan." That is a act of worship. Then in the next Jesus asked him "Were there not 10 cleansed? But where are the the nine?" This guy wasn't rebuked either
@bigmike5989 (cont) Jesus' disciples of course, will proclaim that Jesus was god, that he was sacrificed and ascended up into heaven. All the historian did was state his observations based on the disciples behavior and claims, which will obviously match the account of the gospels because people with similar christian beliefs wrote them. Real, solid evidence would be a bone that can be analized, pieces of the cross, samples of DNA, something that can be studied and analyzed.
@happyraver1958 You are playing semantics again because the things your talking about are not needed to prove that Jesus. However, the way to prove that Jesus existed are through things like archaeology, ancient writings (Christians & Non-Christian), eyewitness testimony & other things which conservative & liberal New Testament scholars as a whole don't dispute. Scholars who study ancient history are skeptical of historic events that have no divergent of details. This is where the gospel
@happyraver1958 (continue): account are considered reliable by New Testament scholars because the divergent of detail exist in the gospels. From an archaeological stand point The New Testament has been proven in that area also because archaeologists have found the Pool of Bethesda that's mentioned in John 5:1-9, & Jacob's Well that's mentioned in John 4:6 & these are two examples of what have been found to prove that the gospel accounts are reliable. Even though Mormonism have been proven false
@bigmike5989 I will give you the benefit of the doubt BigMike. I have already queued (in Netflix) lots of documentaries about Jesus from different sources and I should be getting them soon. It may confirm your account, or it may only confirm my proposal of the non-existence of a deity named Jesus. I still don't understand how my logical arguments are judged as "playing with semantics" while your arguments continue to be valid (at least to you); quite strange...
@happyraver1958 The reason I say that because you haven't based anything you said on the historic evidence about Jesus to the point even the Non-Christian New Testament scholars would be skeptical about some of the things you said. I haven't based anything I said on mere opinion but on what I have read in books, what the ancient writers have said in their writings, archaeology, etc. I have quoted some of the ancient Non-Christian historians to show that Jesus existed.
@bigmike5989 So far, I've used the same texts and quotes you have presented to prove you wrong, but you obviously don't want to see it. It's easier to hold on to a belief system than to give the evidence presented to you the benefit of the doubt (which is my best guess of what you're doing here). I cannot present other evidence than the one you have presented because it's all we've got so far. If I find more evidence, I'll be happy to present it.
@bigmike5989 Ancient text are the sole source of proof? On the contrary BigMike, ancient texts are so vague and much of the solid evidence is so old and fragile that cannot be confirmed without a doubt. On the contrary, our behavior as society and the patterns we find in our own behavior through time tells a story different from the common belief of a god. Look at the writings of Hitchens and Dawkins, very interesting reading.
@happyraver1958 I also mentioned archaeology which backs up with what's written in the gospels. Not only that, New Testament scholars date the gospels between 59 AD-60 AD & the rest of the New Testament in the 1st century, so the eyewitnesses were still alive to confirm the fact Jesus rose from the dead. The ancient Non-Christian that I mentioned, the scholars date their writings within a generation of the New Testament. Scholars date the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus between 30-33AD.
@bigmike5989 Will you please cite your sources? I will investigate it, that's for sure !! Unlike others, I am completely willing to change my mind if solid evidence is presented. Thanks BigMike, for your patience :)
@happyraver1958 read The Case for Christ, Case for the Real Jesus, I Don't Have Enough to be Atheist by Norman Geilser, & Frank Turek, Cracking Da Vinci's Code by James Garlow & Peter Jones.
@happyraver1958 (continue): With that being said plus the fact the Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger & other ancient Non-Christian historians never accused the gospel writers of lying, 30 years is way too early for the resurrection of Jesus to be a myth. Hitchens & Dawkins would love to say realistically that Jesus is a myth but based on the evidence that exist today, Jesus is far from a myth.
@bigmike5989 I will keep researching BigMike, I will keep looking for the truth until my last breath because it's too exciting and I'm too curious to just let it go and live like a another sheep in the herd. If you're happy with your belief system, good for you and I'm glad god is working out for you. It hasn't worked out for me and that's why I'll keep looking for the truth. God or no god, the truth is out there, we just need to find it.
@bigmike5989 Something else I find funny BigMike is that Jesus never performed any miracles that invovled the creation of a new limb for an amputee. Usually his miracles were directed towards people who had legs and couldn't walk, or people who had eyes but couldn't see. Quite interesting too, that the creator of the universe is unable and/or unwilling to save us all from damnation. I find so many flaws in the god arguments, that's why it's so easy for me to discard them as fiction.
@happyraver1958 Jesus may have performed just a miracle you are referring to but the gospel writers may have choose not to include it. But that don't prove that they lied because the enemies of Christianity never accused them of making the whole thing up.
@bigmike5989 Isn't that convenient BigMike? The gospel writers just "oops!" those little details out, ON PURPOSE!! Nonetheless. The lack of an accusation or the existence of one proves nothing. It's only an accusation, it's not factual until it's proven one way or the other. So it's up in the air still isn't it? We're drawing different conclusions based on our interpretations of the different texts but there's still no evidence proving the deity or existence of Jesus. Again, I'll keep lookin
@happyraver1958 A lot of what's written about Jesus the gospels is based on oral traditions, so the stories about Jesus was done by mouth. Not only that, they committed to memory a lot of who Jesus said & did & pass it along accurately. As a result, whoever told the story of Jesus in various ways, paraphrasing what Jesus said, or omit certain things to bring something specifically what Jesus said. Just because a gospel writer omitted something don't mean they lied about what they wrote.
@happyraver1958 Like I said before when scholars look at the differences that exists in the gospels show that they were being truthful especially since they died brutal, torturous deaths proclaiming that Jesus rose from the dead.
@bigmike5989 (cont) but of course, that cannot be provided for the same reason we cannot analyze the golden plates of the mormons, because these also (conveniently) ascended into heaven after Joseph Smith translated them. I find the exact same convenience here, no evidence of Jesus, no evidence of golden plates. This lack of physical evidence is what makes me doubt the entire existence of Jesus and obviously his deity.
@happyraver1958 There is evidence for the existence Jesus and I mentioned some of the evidence. Tacitus mentioned in his book called The Annals that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontus Pilatus." No historian has successfully disputed this passage neither have they disputed the passages of Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata & other ancient Christian & Non-Christian writers who mention Jesus.
@bigmike5989 Because there is no evidence of his existence outside ancient writings. If any evidence of his existence or divinity could be found in a tomb, an ancient rock or a piece of cloth, it would have been destroyed with time, 2000 years is a very long time to keep something intact. That's what I'm saying, it's not a personal attack against religious people, it's against the philosophies of religion that are based on nothing!
@happyraver1958 That goes to show that you're committed to your bias to take the evidence seriously. Plus ancient historian like Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucias, Josephus & other Non-Christians writers all have mention Jesus in their writings, including his death, burial, & resurrection. There are ancient Christians writers who have mention Jesus, so there is a lot of evidence for for proofing that Jesus existing outside the New Testament.
@bigmike5989 Where do you think I should go? The Bible is unreliable evidence that can be torn to pieces and disproved in a matter of seconds. Other writings are that, other writings which prove nothing. Don't you find it strange that no miracle has ever involved the creation of a new limb for an amputee? Jesus' miracles are nothing compared to the creation of the Universe. I would be very disappointed in Jesus even if his miracles were true.
@happyraver1958 The Bible, especially when it comes to the life of Jesus, have been proven to be true beyond a shadow of doubt by Christian & Non-Christians scholar through eyewitness testimony, ancient Christian writings, which include the gospels, & Non-Christian writings, archaeology & things of that nature.
@happyraver1958 God created the universe and the Jesus have performed miracles by the will of God. Quran 3.49 : "I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe."
@bigmike5989 And in the end I think we will never know because even if we tried DNA tests on the "evidence" found by the Catholic church, we have nothing to compare it to. It could have been from a corpse that decomposed 300 years ago and I think no ancient rag could last 2000 years. Maybe a plastic shopping bag could last that long, but not a piece of cloth made by people 2000 years ago, unless it fossilized of course, but if it did, it would have irrecoverable traces of DNA...
@happyraver1958 You're playing semantics because the the current evidence is not even dependent DNA but it is dependent on the fact that the gospels were written within two generations after the life of Jesus, which means that the eyewitnesses were still alive when the original disciples were saying that Jesus is God & that he rose from the dead. Plus, the Roman government & the Jewish religious leaders from the 1st century never accused them of making the whole thing up in their writings.
@happyraver1958 Plus all of the gospel writers mention that the women who followed Jesus were the ones who found the tomb of Jesus empty & he appeared to them first. If the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus was a lie, the gospel writers would have said that the Peter, James & John were the discoverers of the empty tomb, not the women followers considering that women were not allowed to testify in a 1st century Jewish court of law. You haven't proven that Jesus denied being God.
@bigmike5989 Which still cannot be used as evidence anyway. Jesus was not the only one claiming divinity on this world. There have been many others, except Jesus is one of the most famous ones on this continent. Celebrity status doesn't prove divinity either; claiming you are God does not prove it, having many writings by many authors is not proof. There are many writers out there who talk about the "Quixote de la Mancha", which does not make the character real.
@happyraver1958 The celebrity status thing you bring has no relevance because you haven't proven that Jesus denied being God. Plus Christian & non-Christian scholars who have studied the life of Jesus all agree that the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus is a actual historic event.
@happyraver1958 If Jesus didn't claim to God or rise from the dead, you have to explain why the writings of non-Christian historians who mentions Jesus are pretty consistent with what's written in the gospels & what the Christians believed. The only logical explanation is that Jesus did claim to be God & that he rose from the dead, & any other argument does a poor job explaining that.
@maxamed4yare Christianity came existence no later than 33 AD & Islam came on the scene at 622 AD, all historians agree with those dates. For you to say that Jesus was a Muslim is a historically inaccurate statement to make. If you look at John 5:27 Jesus uses the 'Son of man' phrase & he was referring to himself. Son of man is a claim of deity, read Daniel 7:13-14.
Jesus' tomb was empty because he never existed. I will believe in Jesus when he comes down in the clouds (as said in the Bible, event which we've been waiting for... How many years???) in his full glory; that will at least be something to experience, instead of just discussions and ancient mythical stories written by who knows who!
@happyraver1958 Your first sentence has no no logic because ancient non-Christian historians mention Jesus in their writings. Pliny the Younger mention that Christians "honor Christ as if to a god". Tacitus mention that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontuis Pilate." All four gospels mention that women discovered the empty tomb because back during the 1st century, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law.
@happyraver1958 Your first sentence has no no logic because ancient non-Christian historians mention Jesus in their writings. Pliny the Younger mention that Christians "honor Christ as if to a god". Tacitus mention that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontuis Pilate." All four gospels mention that women discovered the empty tomb because back during the 1st century, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law.
@happyraver1958 Your first sentence has no no logic because ancient non-Christian historians mention Jesus in their writings. Pliny the Younger mention that Christians "honor Christ as if to a god". Tacitus mention that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontuis Pilate." All four gospels mention that women discovered the empty tomb because back during the 1st century, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law.
@happyraver1958 If the gospel writers were lying, they would have said that Jesus' male disciples were the ones who found the tomb empty, not his female disciples.
@bigmike5989 I don't think it makes a difference bigmike5989, what's important to me is that if there were any witnesses at all, are long dead and gone and we can't ask them what they saw. They could be lying, they could have been high, who knows!! The author who wrote it could have made up the disciples as he/she made up Jesus. How are we supposed to confirm anything? Hell, we can't even confirm if what the media told us about 9/11 is true, much less what happened about 2000 years ago!!!
@happyraver1958 Someone can make the claim that the gospel writers were lying. Two of the gospel writers, Matthew & John, were actually two of the original 12 disciples of Jesus, so they know what Jesus said & did. Mark wrote what Peter told him & Luke said in the opening verses of his gospel that "Many have undertaken to draw an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first eyewitnesses & servants of the word. Therefore
@happyraver1958 (continue): since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning. it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." (Luke 1:1-4). The point is that the gospel writers made sure that they had the facts straight about the before they wrote them down. Plus the gospels were written within 30 years after the life of Jesus, which means that eyewitness
@happyraver1958 (continue): were still alive when they were being circulated. All four gospels say that the women disciples of Jesus found his tomb empty. In 1st century Jewish society, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law. So if the gospel writers were lying, they would have said that the male disciples discovered the tomb empty, not the women disciples. Plus the enemies of Christianity did not accuse the disciples of lying about the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus.
@bigmike5989 As pedgarrett123 mentioned, the gospels are not reliable because they're not consistent. Any writings that were made after the authors of the gospels finished and published their writings will obviously be compromised too because supposed "eye witnesses" cannot agree on how things happened. From what I can tell based on your postings, the fame of Jesus spreaded throughout the land which made Jesus famous and controversial, not a god.
@happyraver1958 Actually historians are skeptical when anything from ancient history have no so-called contradictions in them, so the gospel accounts pass with flying colors. So the fact that the differences that exist in the gospels don't call into question their reliably.
@TheDarvus Please spare me the rubbish mate. You choose to believe your little foolish story. I will believe the story that I am convicted of by experience and scholarly perfection. Just remember your little story does not save a soul or edify a soul. The life of Jesus transforms lives and hearts and gives eternal life to multitudes. You're little fictional story does nothing but damn souls. End of thread!
The Gospels don't agree at all on the resurrection story. Matthew says the women saw an Angel rolled the stone away, the others say it was already rolled away. Matthew says 1 Angel was in the tomb, Mark says 1 man, Luke says 2 men and John says 2 Angels. Matthew and Luke say Jesus could be touched after he was resurrected and John says he couldn't be touched. READ YOUR BIBLES!!! The time of day and how may women there were also contradicts...
can we be sure jesus fitting the old testament prophesies was not people writing things about him after a real person lived and died? oh wait, that is what actually happened.
If you want to make up your mind about the divinity of jesus, watch these
an empty tomb does not prove anything. sorry. not proof
@TheDarvus Sorry mate, but thousands of scholars worth their salt claim the Bible is true. Don't assume just because you don't believe it, that if someone else does that they are fools. The Bible stands ultimately between the saved and the unsaved. What you choose in relation to its authenticity, you will have to live with for eternity. Your choice.
@Indiana0777 There no historic basis for saying that Jesus wasn't crucified. In his book Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus wrote, "At this time, there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews & the other nations becames his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified & to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after
God will never let him die on the cross; Matthew 4.7 "...He will give his angels care over you; and, In their hands they will keep you up, SO THAT YOUR FOOT MAY NOT BE CRUSHED AGAINST A STONE "how could he be crucified ? you forgot that we have limited reason because we are simple human being. your conclusions are rationnal regarding a very special man (no father - magic power...). the holy Quran gives the irrationnal answer.
@Indiana0777 In this verse, Satan was tempting Jesus to jump off the temple by twisting Psalm 90:11-12, you're doing the same thing, & Jesus fought back quoting the 1st part Deuteronomy 6:16 which say "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Plus there are non-Christian historians like Tacitus & Josephus who did mention in their writings that Jesus did died on the cross, they were not Christian-friendly to say the least.
@bigmike5989 How Satan or myself can tempt God ? Who is Satan? Why he is on earth? because he disobeyed to God, his creator. We are on earth, because Adam and Eve disobeyed to God. Satan tempts humans, because they are weak not God his creator - because he wants us to join him into hell; Regarding the crucifixion, I refer to Matthew to have the answer : if the Angels would not let the foot of Jesus hit a stone how they let him be crucified ? and the Quran to have the confirmation.
@Indiana0777 What I was saying is that you are misquoting that verse like Satan, but I wasn't accusing you of tempting God. Satan, on the other hand, was tempting Jesus because at the beginning of Matthew 4:6 Satan said "If thou be the Son of God," then quoted Psalm 90:11-12 to try to get Jesus to slip up, that's what temptation is. Christians & non-Christians scholars don't use the Quran as a credible source for the life because was written 600 years after the life of Jesus.
@bigmike5989 sorry but it makes no sense for me that satan, creation of God , was tempting God. 4.9 : no sense that satan asked God to worship him. but Satan wants that human beings worship him on a way or an other and do not worship God as they have to do. Quran has been memorised during prophet life time. and has been written just afetr his death. in only 1 language. The bible has been written and translated 2 or 300 years after the life of Jesus.
@Indiana0777 In regards to your last sentence, the facts is not on your side because the Greek Manuscripts are dated within two to three generations after the the originals written, which was before 100 AD. The Gospel account based on eyewitness account, which is why the Quran is not a credible source for the life of Jesus. The Gospel accounts have been backed up by ancient historians, like Tacitus & Josephus, & archeaology.
@bigmike5989 You reject the Quran that you consider as non credible source because non eyewitness and 600 years after jesus. but you accept the several contradictions and mistakes of the bible. Up to you. you forget that Jesus came 2000 years after Moses. What about Moses teaching ? did jesus not come primarily for the children of Israel ?
@Indiana0777 A lot of scholars, both Christians & non-Christians, do too. What you contradictions are really complimentary because scholars are skeptical when a historical writing has no so-called contradictions. The fact that there are differences in the gospel accounts means that the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus is an actual historical event.
@bigmike5989 No Doubt on Jesus live but as a messenger or prophet or son of God if you prefer but human being not God. the Quran confirms 3:55" And when Allah said: O Issa (jesus), I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed".
@Indiana0777 Jesus is God u musslims give God 99 names and two of those names are THE FIRST and THE LAST and Jesus said he is the FIRST and The LAST Rev 1:17-18 Rev 2:8 Rev 22:12-16
@njfreddy other name is Peace:Matthew 10.34"Do not have the thought that I have come to send peace on the earth; I came not to send peace but a sword".this a parable to say that Jesus will put believers against non believers,those who follow God commandments vs who not. Other name:"al Mushi" means the one that counts everything and nothing escapes from him.Matthew 10.29"and not one of them comes to an end without your Father" 10.30"and the hairs of your head are all numbered". Jesus is not God
@Indiana0777 Jesus is God!! why do u think he forgave sins?? and only God can do that!! or raise people from the dead?? raise himself from the dead?? and the big one! He never ever EVER commited a single sin he lived his entire life (33 years) without ever sinning No human can do that unless ur ...thats right GOD!!
@njfreddy Other prophets have done miracles and they are not god; Put the Bible aside 10 seconds. if jesus is god, he created Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve had children and then Mary. and Mary gave birth to Jesus, the one who created ...Adam and Eve.and he created Adam w/o father and mother , but he (the God for u) was born from a mother. Sorry no sense for me.
So who is Jesus for u ? God or son of God. the creator or the son of the creator? he has been created or have been created?
@Indiana0777 I believe that Jesus is God. God in the Old Testament is referred to as I am, The First & The Last, Savior, Alpha & Omega, Lord, Judge, Light, Rock, Redeemer, Shepherd, forgiver of sin, Creator, King, & speaker with divine authority. These same terms applied to Jesus in the New Testament. That tell me that Jesus is God.
@bigmike5989 Other terms are applied in the old and New testament. Esaie 11.3 about jesus "the spirit of knowledge and OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD; Matthew 6.1-6-18 : jesus speaks and says"YOUR father"and not MY father;10.29 "... without YOUR Father".John 8.16"...because I am not by myself-with me is THE Father who SENT ME".8.26"but he WHO SENT ME is true"; 8.28 "I do nothing of myself".8.40 "a man who has said to you what is true, as I had it FROM GOD.
AS AN ATHEIST{ LEE STROBEL} WAS A LOST MAN AND NOW EVEN MORE...
julio14335 1 week ago
GO ON LEE STROBEL, ANYTHING YOU SAY PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE YOU, EVEN IF YOU SAY GOD IS 4 PERSON MANIFEST IN 1, THEY WILL STILL ACCEPT, DONT WORRY, MY QUESTION IS DOES GOD HAS A NATIONALITY, MOTHER, OR BROTHER etc. IF YES ARE WE WRIGHT TO SAY MOTHER OF GOD OR BROTHER OF GOD?
julio14335 2 weeks ago
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julio14335 2 weeks ago
Logic: how can jesus be resurrected if his body is gone? souls dont need bodies to be resurrected . nd Jesus prove to his disciples that he was still alive and not a spirit
KagUya709 4 weeks ago
calling on christians to help a family stay together and actually
give a dam wake up wake up
singledad1234 1 month ago
@callindisciple I'm apostolic
AndrewCastro777 1 month ago
Too many of you people who make it a hobby to post comments on YouTube are blinded by ignorance. You try so hard to convince yourselves that you are right, yet do not realize that some of your arguments make no sense at all. Open your mind and look on the situation objectively, and the truth becomes very clear.
Packdude05 1 month ago
Too many of you people who make it a hobby to post comments on YouTube to try and convince yourselves you are right are blinded by ignorance. If you would look at the situation objectively you would see the truth.
Packdude05 1 month ago
I think that the only way that the majority of prophesy would be impressive would be if the New Testament writers weren't familiar with the old testament. If they had never read it or been influenced by it, then yes Lee, it would be impressive. Unfortunately for you though, they were more than a little familiar with the OT therefore the details they wrote/early church compiled are hardly astounding.
2003SCT 2 months ago
@2003SCT so what's your point? that the disciples made Jesus up? or what?
KingDcome11 2 months ago
Watch Ancient Aliens...
Toky0Boy 2 months ago
@Toky0Boy I have! Wow what an enlightening program. History channel would never lie! I used to be into UFO's until I woke up! Jesus is the Truth and the only way to heaven. Repent of your sins and follow Jesus. Read your Bible too! It IS the TRUTH!!!
84rattnroll 1 month ago
Preaching ignorants why don't chrisitans actually study the research for themselfs instead of listening to preachers that are deceptive and poor at analyizing evidence obviously they make money off this propaganda so of course they will use deceptive assertions and seem convincing to ignorant members.
wachnathan 3 months ago
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@wachnathan So you think all Christians are ignorant? How do you know God doesn't exist? What evidence do you have ?
84rattnroll 1 month ago
@wachnathan First of all Jesus said many will come in my name but it is not him, my church tells you to know your bible and to study it cause if you go off what people tell you, your in trouble. The devil is a liar and he got religions out there blinding people and they like what there saying cause it sounds good to them, I am an apostolic christian and we go and live by the whole bible best we can. Have you ever got the holy ghost?
callindisciple 1 month ago
@callindisciple Belief in god is not my issue only the bible because its obviously created by egotistacal men besides every comic book needs a villian thus we have the devil that god can't or wont do anything about he just randomly does what he wants and god can't stop him? What a bunch of nonsense that a devil trapped in hell can still have power outside of it lol and your claiming that your god is a loveing being that cares but yet he allows a villian to do what it wants to us? come on.
wachnathan 1 month ago
@wachnathan wow lol a comic book, people do bad things to people who listen to the devil he cant make you do anything, its our own choice to do what ever we want
callindisciple 1 month ago
@callindisciple I see nothing wrong with calling it a comic book being it has so much fiction involved in it, honestly god only working with people of the dessert and ignoring the rest of the world is nuts and arrogant of the jews to think there the center of the universe is pure BS and i reject it on that bases alone. If god indeed helped write this book then it must be pretty unperfect giving all the error and mistakes and confussion of this bible which created more choas then any other book.
wachnathan 1 month ago
@callindisciple To think that your god gives us ability then says we can't use it or gives us free will then makes us slaves for christ its a confussing none logical system that degrades us and makes us feel guilty for a crime we didn't commit, its pure insane that only a warped mind would create. God maybe real but am certain its not a christian or what or we think it might be.
wachnathan 1 month ago
@callindisciple Forgot to mention that Lee Strobel became christain because of his wife and that fact that he can't explain how Jesus rose up from the dead instead wondering how they could make up such a story its all based on scanty hear say evidence that even Rome didn't seem to be all that impressed with at the time is so convincing to you it just blows me away. lol
wachnathan 1 month ago
@wachnathan Jesus is God the son of god is just a tittle God manifested him self in the flesh
callindisciple 1 month ago
@callindisciple Yup! John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD...And the WORD BECAME FLESH(JESUS), and DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." :-)
iraidushka 1 month ago
@wachnathan You have no idea what living for christ is all about cause you are so ignorant, you think as a slave as chained up but its far from that I used to live worldly and that life style sucks people these dont know how to deal with there problems so they just go around shooting people the world does not know how to deal with problems
callindisciple 1 month ago
@callindisciple Living for a man which you never met or saw with bad evidence to support him is nuts am sorry your giving your short little life over to a story writen by men who have never actually met Yashua themselves its all hear say. This movment with all do respect is looney and doesn't make sense with reality. Ignorant people are ones who follow a world view with scanty evidence and with little justifacation i at least am open to all ideas your not who's close minded now?
wachnathan 1 month ago
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@callindisciple Living for a man which you never met or saw with bad evidence to support him is nuts am sorry your giving your short little life over to a story writen by men who have never actually met Yashua themselves its all hear say. This movment with all do respect is looney and doesn't make sense with reality. Ignorant people are ones who follow a world view with scanty evidence and with little justifacation i at least am open to all ideas your not who's close minded now?
wachnathan 1 month ago
@callindisciple Christ Jesus breaks the law of contradiction he is the son of human error he brings love with a knife behind he's back he brings a sea of confussion creates division among human beings, nothing has brought more choas on earth then theism and now we have a brother and sister Islam and mormonism. We also have creationism that tells us science is bogus ya you guys are going backwards thinking backwards you guys all suck. The bible is a "man" made book no question about it.
wachnathan 1 month ago
@callindisciple I feel bad for my comment but am not one to back down from my feelings i know for a fact chrisitans don't wanna hear what deists or atheists have to say you only hear what you wanna hear. Your prime objective is to convert me not debate me i have no intention of converting you only making you aware your view is not agreed by all no disrespect here.
wachnathan 1 month ago
@wachnathan I hear you it is hard to believe that this book is god inspired but its by faith I believe in this book and it is a man who wrote but god inspired and the devil is behind some of those religions the founder of jehova witness was a freemason and some people just dont know how to read the bible and pick and choose what to believe in, whats so confusing about the bible?have you ever gotten the holy ghost?have you ever been to a apostolic church?
callindisciple 1 month ago
Yeshua is the son of God, the firt born of all creation, who created all under the direction of God, who begged God to remove the cup, to forgive his his killers, when God had forsaken him, who siad God is greater than him, who said why call me good, only God is good, who told Mary not to touch him after his assention from hell in his resurected form for he had not assended to God yet. He is my mediator between me and God, high priest and sacrifice to cover my sins. I pray in his name to God.
ApostasyRestoration 3 months ago
If jesus(Peace be upon him) was god,then Moses(Peace be upon him) was biger god?and Adam(Peace be upon him) was the first God.Jesus(Peace be upon him) had to eat,sleep, go to bathroom,was born,passed away.These are human quality.He also had god's quality.He raised people from death.Before him others did similar thing.King solaiman(Peace be upon him) used to fly,Moses(Peace be upon him) separated water of nile.Are they god too?Forget all these,try to find god in your heart that's where god lives.
roadway2peace 3 months ago
@roadway2peace Jesus is God, it is beyond doubt, there is sufficient evidence to believe so and therefore my conclusion logically and inescapably would have to be that Jesus is God.
28664miguel 3 months ago 2
@28664miguel But how is any belief logical?
DrFruedienslip 2 months ago
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Atheist603 2 months ago
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@28664miguel Based upon what? what you have heard? Dont you even know that one person wrote the whole Old and new testament? Think about that one for awhile and realize that no one has ever been able to figure out any riddle to the good book, until now''' One cannot know what One cannot see' any "belief" is something that cannot be proven, so what is any point within having any crutch?
DrFruedienslip 2 months ago
Jesus never said I am GOD or Warship me ..John chp-5 v-30 "I can't of my self do nothing . As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, for i seek not my will, but the will of my father "....anyone who said (i seek not my will but the will of all mighty God is a Muslim) ... Jesus was a Muslim. Jesus never claim divinity.. PROOF ME WRONG ..THERE IS NO A SINGLE WORD IN UR BOOK THAT JESUS SAID I AM GOD OR WORSHIP ME .
maxamed4yare 4 months ago
@maxamed4yare Jesus did claim to be God using the term "Son of Man"in the Gospels, which is a reference Daniel 7:13-14. He forgave sin in Matthew 9:3. He said in John 8:58 that "Before Abraham was, I am." in the next verse, some of the people were going to stone him because when he said 'I am', they understood that Jesus was claiming to be God & he backed it up with the miracles he did & that he rose from the dead.
bigmike5989 4 months ago in playlist case
@bigmike5989 Didn't Lazarus raise from the dead too? Is Lazarus God as well? What about the ascension of Elias, who didn't even experience death. Isn't Elias more God than Jesus for not even going through the pains of death? This based on your comment of course...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 You are playing semantics because Lazarus never claimed to be God & he never said that he was going rise from the dead, but these are things that Jesus said about himself. Secondly, Jesus told Lazarus to come forth & that's how he came back to life, under the authority of Jesus. Elijah wasn't taken into heaven under his own authority & he didn't claim to be God either. Even though both did happen, you haven't proven that Jesus denied his deity.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 What I'm trying to say is that being raised from the dead does not prove divinity, claiming divinity is far from proving it. Claiming authority does not give it either; the authority system is one that evolved along with our society (as all other social animals have a similar authority system) and we mimic it in the religious aspect as well. Authority, divinity, resurrection are all concepts coined by humankind, not the other way around!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Actually it does prove that Jesus rose from the dead because not only did Jesus claim to be God, he also predicted his own death, burial & resurrection, in which he mentioned the responsible parties that would be involved in his execution, no other person besides Jesus has ever made those two statements & then have it backed up eyewitnesses & ancient Christian & non-Christian writings.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Hi again BigMike. Several other posts here claim just the opposite; that Jesus never claimed to be God and that he never asked to be worshiped. But that's besides the point. If there is any proof of the Jesus depicted by the Bible on this planet, other than writings (whose authors are both known and unknown), no solid evidence of such event has been found. Many claims have been made by the Catholic church which only raise more questions than provide answers.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 There is solid evidence Jesus claim to be God because Matthew 9:2 Jesus said to a cripple man that his sins was forgiven & in the next verse the Jewish religious leaders realized that he was claiming that he is God. Then Jesus said to them in verse 6 "that the Son of man hath power (or authority) to forgive sin" now the fact Jesus made that statement means that he was claiming to be God & he backed it with the miracles he did & his own resurrection.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 All your quotes are coming from the Bible. You are making several assumptions here. You assume the Bible is the absolute and undeniable truth in spite of all its contradictions and it's arcaic idealisms of a god. Other people have claimed to perform miracles, as many illusionists throughout history have done and other placebo effects that faith has had over the history of humankind (miraculous healings). I'm looking for evidence outside of writings for his divinity and existence...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Pliny the Younger (61 AD-112 AD) who was a non-Christian Roman government official wrote to the Roman emperor Trajan. In this letter he wrote that Christians "meet on a fixed day before dawn & sang responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god." Lucias of Samosata (125 AD-180 AD) a Syrian satirist also wrote about Jesus. He said that Christians "Revered him as a god," & "Next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship him, the man they crucified in Palestine because he
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 (continue): introduce this new cult into the world." He also said that Christians "From the that they are converted, & deny the gods of Greece, & worship the the crucified sage, & live after his laws." In a third passage he wrote that Christians "Took him for a God, accepted his laws." & "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduce novel their rites, & was crucified on that account.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Both Pliny the Younger & Lucias of Samosata confirmed what the gospels about Jesus claiming to be God because they wrote that Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Plus Lucias also confirmed what gospels have written about Jesus' death, burial, & resurrection. Christian & Non-Christian scholars consider these passages from these two ancient historians authentic considering that they, like other ancient Non-Christian historians, were very hostile to Christianity.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Cult: A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. Back then, Christianity was a cult because it was regarded weird since they didn't follow the mainstream religion of the time. This probably tells us how early christians started and how they were regarded, it does not prove the divinity of Jesus at all.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Lucian was a Non-Christian satirist so scholars who studied his writings about Christianity will tell you that he would call it a cult because he was hostile toward Christians in his writings, so this argument doesn't have a leg to stand on either
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 What may seem strange or negative to some people (like Christians see Islam as a bad religion, overall and vice-versa) like for the word "cult" it's just a word to others. To me, cult is just a word that has a meaning like any other word. You are implyin a negative connotation to the word "cult" and I am not. Christianity WAS a cult because it was strange to other people who didn't believe in it. In the end, this confirms that the Christian religion had its beginnings...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 (cont) a long time ago, but it does nothing to demonstrate how Jesus is actually god just because people who were against it and considered it a cult back in ancient times. What you have quoted so far only proves the possible beginnings of the Christian religion, but it fails to prove Jesus' divinity. My point is and will always be: There is no god! God was invented by people to exercise control over the masses. In my dictionary, that's called dictatorship and I'm pro-democracy.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Like I said before the writings by Pliny the Younger & Lucian of Samosata have been proven to be true by Christian & Non-Christian scholar to be authentic & they back up what's written in the gospels. Plus Christians didn't have control over anyone because they were being put to death in brutal, torturous way for saying that Jesus rose from the dead. No one will knowingly die for a lie. This is another argument that doesn't have a leg to stand on.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Let's say Pliny the Younger & Lucian of Samosata are true and they actually considered the beginnings of the the Christian religion a cult (which later on grew to a full-blown religion, who obviously exercise control over the US by calling it a "Christian nation" and US Dollars stating "In God we trust"). Do you believe the Quran to be true? The obvious answer is no, however, suicide bombers are more than willing to die, FOR A LIE !! So yes, people die for a lie all the time.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
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bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 If Christianity wasn't true, the Roman government & the Jewish religious leaders would have exposed as a lie & they would have wrote about but no ancient writings from the 1st century that disputes what is written in the gospels accounts.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Wasn't it the Jewish religious leaders who considered Jesus blasphemic for calling himself god? Wasn't they who crucified him? They did expose him as a heretic and a liar from the get-go, they even tried to kill him when he was a kid, according to your own Bible, so now you cannot tell me they admitted everything he said was true. Please explain.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 But Jesus responded to them by saying, "But that ye may know that Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sin." (Matthew 9:6a, Mark 2:10). Jesus referred to himself as Son of man when he said that, which alluding Daniel 7:13-14 where Daniel recorded a vision he had about a divine figure who approached God himself & had universal authority & an everlasting, who is worshiped by people from different countries. By calling himself Son of man, Jesus was saying that he is God.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Herod the Great was a paranoid king who killed anyone who posed a threat to him. He killed some of his own family members as a matter of fact. You're overlooking the fact that Jesus was claiming to be God at his trial also but that doesn't prove that he was a heretic, taking into consideration that the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus has been proven to be a historical event
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 you are as indoctrinated as suicide bombers because you analyze this through religion whereas it is contrary to islam. Democracies you love lock you up in the lies but you do not do anything to get out. the Truth, it's not that simple...
Indiana0777 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Your arguments so far have been the ones not standing because they are easily refuted by just plain logic and common sense. I have respect for you personally as a fellow human being, but I cannot believe what you believe, sorry bigmike.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 You're accusing me of not using logic & common sense when you're not the one using logic & common sense. I have quoted ancient Non-Christian sources, which Christian & Non-Christian New Testament scholars have considered authentic, the prove that their writings back up what the gospel account say about Jesus & what he said & did and you have not provided one shred of evidence that have proven otherwise.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 The gospels and the non-Christian writers both agree on how christianity started, only the first claim Jesus' deity, not the second writers. The non-Christian writers are accusing early Christians that they have regarded Jesus "as a god", which obviously does not prove that Jesus is a god; they're just claiming their disprove of the newly-created (by humans) Christian religion. Do I really need to prove my point further? How is this not logic and common sense?
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 It goes back to what the Christian believed about Jesus, so it is logical to assume based on the gospels that Jesus claimed to be God backed it up with his miracles & resurrection.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 My every posting contains information I found easily on the Internet by just using Google and simple keywords, like searching the meaning of certain words. Is that not evidence? How does throwing the burden of proof on my shoulders prove that Jesus is god? Now I'm really confused!!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 What I'm asking you to prove that Jesus denied saying that he was God & that he didn't come back from the dead based on the available information. Based on the information that's available, there is evidence to show that Jesus did in fact rose from the dead, verifying his claim to be God.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 So, the people who were putting early Christians to death, actually confirmed the divinity of Jesus? How does that make sense? If they confirmed that Jesus was god, why would they prosecute his followers? This is just plain weird.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 it is a typical argument of the atheist. They don't believe in God, they still waiting for a proof and they can not prove that it does not exist. you are worse than the Jewish scholars at Christ time.
Indiana0777 4 months ago
@Indiana0777 It's never going to end is it? The theist always want to switch the burden of proof back to the atheist, but it's simple: Steve: There is no chair in that corner, you're imagining it. Bob: Really? Prove it!! Steve: How can I prove the inexistence of the chair? Bob: You said there was no chair when I KNOW there is one, I can feel it!! And you're saying there's no chair, prove it!! Steve: Well, PROVE to me there is one!! And it doesn't end from there. Such a retarded conversation.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 you are less enthusiastic about the question of the existence of God sv the divinity of Jesus. I understand it is very difficult to prove the absence of something, so what is the evidence that God does not exist ? maybe do you have a rational explanation of the creation of the universe? And how man was created?
Indiana0777 4 months ago
@Indiana0777 It seems quite contradicting to me to ask for proof of the inexsitence of something. I'll attempt to do it anyway. The evidence we have so far, is not definitive of the existence of any deity, the best thing theists have is the gaps in science, which our generation may not live long enough before those are explained too and god will have less gaps to fill. Filling a gap in an explanation with a god doesn't prove existence, it only proves our gullibility for believing in one.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Lucian of Samosata who is a 2nd century Greek satirist who wrote that Christians were worshiping Jesus as God. He wrote "they still worship him today, the man in Palestine who was crucified." Pliny the Younger who wrote in 111 AD that Christians "sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god." Based on these two ancient Non-Christian writers, they are backing up what the gospels in saying that Jesus' claim of being God. So your "God in the gaps" theory has no basis in fact.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 You have already dismissed the Quran as a reliable source for facts or information, which mentions Jesus many times, more times than Muhammad himself. For millions of Muslims, this is fact and to them, the Quran is not a mythical book. I feel the same way about both pieces of literature: The Bible and the Quran. They're both mythical books that are too far away from reality but were the source and inspiration for many other literary works, even ancient ones.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Christian & Non-Christian scholars don't consider the Qu'ran a reliable source for the life of Jesus because the New Testament dated in the 1st century & the Qu'ran is dated in the 7th century. The thing about the Bible is that the writers used the names of people who existed.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The Quran and the Bible are not book to follow society. It is the opposite. People are too far away from God wishes and guidance. That is why Islam is criticized. and Christians have forsaken the commandments a long time ago.
Indiana0777 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The placebo effect is not a good argument because psychosomatic healing takes time & they often come back. The miracles of Jesus were spontaneous, plus he cured lifelong blindness & leprosy for which the placebo effect theory isn't likely. Plus he raise people from the dead, so the placebo effect doesn't work here or with any other of the miracles that Jesus did. So you're entire argument don't have a leg to stand on.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 The only source of information you've presented so far are ancient writings from different authors, known and unknown. People who may or may have not lived on this world; authors who could or could have not invented what they wrote. If Jesus ever existed on this planet, could have been an ordinary man with extraordinary intelligence who fooled the people of his time and who is fooling you now. Or, he may have been the product of the writer's vivid imagination...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Your logic is not based on the facts because ancient Christian & Non-Christian writings, from Tacitus to the Jewish Talmud, all mention that Jesus did exist & that he performed miracles, confirming the gospel account. Your "Jesus never existed" theory is not based on history because none of the ancient Non-Christian writers never accused the Christians making up the resurrection story. So your theory is the only thing that is a product of an vivid imagination.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Will you please provide evidence, other than ancient writings of the existence of the Jesus depicted in the Bible? Please understand that ancient writings are not reliable due to the fact that most of the material was lost in the crusades because it was considered "heretic" along with thousands of people who were considered witches. So far, we know about Jesus because of writings, not because of evidence. Obi-wan Kenobi and Queen Amidala also appear in many later books...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Christians were not responsible for killing people who were claiming to be witches that is a big time myth with no basis in facts. Wherever you got that from is unreliable at best & has proven to be false. Yes the Crusades did happen, but there nothing to suggest historically that documents that was considered were burned. You are playing semantics.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Are they real too because they appear in many contemporary books? Really? So we're also to say that Zeus and the hell described in the other ancient mythological books are just as real as Jesus and the Trinity. Things are holy because humanity considers them holy, god is a creation of humankind, not the other way around. So, unless there's verifyable evidence outside of ancient writings, Jesus is still a character and a myth.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The gospel accounts mentions people & places that actually existed because of the ancient writings, the oral traditions of ancient Israel & archaeology that historians have studied. Based of what the New Testament scholars have studied concerning Jesus, they have determined that Jesus did exist & that his resurrection is a actual historic event. You have not proven that Jesus is a myth.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Will you please share a link or the name of the documentary or book which confirms your claims about Jesus? I'd love to take a look. I've got Netflix, and what I've seen so far are attempts to prove Jesus and a long list of apologists that cannot get their story straight. That is hardly evidence, but if you have some material I could use, please share it. Again, nobody can prove the inexistence of something or someone, we can only prove some things and rationalize others.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 There are some current Non-Christian philosophers & scholars say that Jesus never existed but you have to look at the ancient writers & historians wrote when it comes to Jesus. Tacitus, a ancient Roman historian, wrote in his book called Annals that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus." Both of them are mentioned in the gospels (Tiberius in Luke 2:1, the name Augustus is used in the KJV)
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 I am looking into the writings of Tacitus and I've already queued plenty of documentaries from different sources concerning this issue. I will get back to you guys in probably a few weeks. Let's make something clear though, some people want to believe Jesus existed, some others don't believe it (like myself). After looking at the evidence we can prove the Jesus the man; now, I want to see someone proving Jesus the god!!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Lucian of Samosata & Pliny the Younger both wrote in their writings Christians worship Jesus as God. The question is why would put that in their writings about Jesus? The first reason is that Jesus really did exist & that he claim to be God.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 (cont) But to have a dude that came to this world and claimed to be god and be able to forgive sin (like if that existed!) and to claim that he is Emmanuel as the prophets predicted (vaguely) and then be crucified does not make him god. Lucian of Samosata & Pliny the Younger wrote about this Jesus character and dispised him for claiming to be god and dispised his followers for worshiping him "like if he was a god", which sounds more like mockery than proof!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 One thing you have to keep in mind is that they were not Christians so their quotes makes sense in that regard. You have to explain why, even though they were very hostile toward Christianity, they were confirming what's written in the gospel. The reason is that Jesus did exist, he claimed to be God & he backed it up by rising from the dead. The things you have said has failed to explain that
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 How else can I explain it? Some people believed Jesus was god and they worshiped him like one, the historian simply wrote about Jesus' disciples behavior, which he didn't approve one bit. This proves that back in the historian's time, there were disciples of Jesus who fervently regarded Jesus as a god, that's it!! It proves the existence of Jesus' disciples, not the existence, crucifiction and ascencion.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 In Matthew 20:20, the mother of James & John came & worshiped Jesus but he didn't rebuke for doing so. In Luke 17:11-19, theses verses mention Jesus healed 10 lepers & one of them, realized that he was healed went back to Jesus. Verse 16 say that this guy "fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan." That is a act of worship. Then in the next Jesus asked him "Were there not 10 cleansed? But where are the the nine?" This guy wasn't rebuked either
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 In Matthew 20:20, the mother of James & John came & worshiped Jesus but he didn't rebuke for doing so. In Luke 17:11-19, theses verses mention Jesus healed 10 lepers & one of them, realized that he was healed went back to Jesus. Verse 16 say that this guy "fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan." That is a act of worship. Then in the next Jesus asked him "Were there not 10 cleansed? But where are the the nine?" This guy wasn't rebuked either
bigmike5989 4 months ago
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@happyraver1958 In Matthew 20:20, the mother of James & John came & worshiped Jesus but he didn't rebuke for doing so. In Luke 17:11-19, theses verses mention Jesus healed 10 lepers & one of them, realized that he was healed went back to Jesus. Verse 16 say that this guy "fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan." That is a act of worship. Then in the next Jesus asked him "Were there not 10 cleansed? But where are the the nine?" This guy wasn't rebuked either
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 (cont) Jesus' disciples of course, will proclaim that Jesus was god, that he was sacrificed and ascended up into heaven. All the historian did was state his observations based on the disciples behavior and claims, which will obviously match the account of the gospels because people with similar christian beliefs wrote them. Real, solid evidence would be a bone that can be analized, pieces of the cross, samples of DNA, something that can be studied and analyzed.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 You are playing semantics again because the things your talking about are not needed to prove that Jesus. However, the way to prove that Jesus existed are through things like archaeology, ancient writings (Christians & Non-Christian), eyewitness testimony & other things which conservative & liberal New Testament scholars as a whole don't dispute. Scholars who study ancient history are skeptical of historic events that have no divergent of details. This is where the gospel
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 (continue): account are considered reliable by New Testament scholars because the divergent of detail exist in the gospels. From an archaeological stand point The New Testament has been proven in that area also because archaeologists have found the Pool of Bethesda that's mentioned in John 5:1-9, & Jacob's Well that's mentioned in John 4:6 & these are two examples of what have been found to prove that the gospel accounts are reliable. Even though Mormonism have been proven false
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 I will give you the benefit of the doubt BigMike. I have already queued (in Netflix) lots of documentaries about Jesus from different sources and I should be getting them soon. It may confirm your account, or it may only confirm my proposal of the non-existence of a deity named Jesus. I still don't understand how my logical arguments are judged as "playing with semantics" while your arguments continue to be valid (at least to you); quite strange...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The reason I say that because you haven't based anything you said on the historic evidence about Jesus to the point even the Non-Christian New Testament scholars would be skeptical about some of the things you said. I haven't based anything I said on mere opinion but on what I have read in books, what the ancient writers have said in their writings, archaeology, etc. I have quoted some of the ancient Non-Christian historians to show that Jesus existed.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 So far, I've used the same texts and quotes you have presented to prove you wrong, but you obviously don't want to see it. It's easier to hold on to a belief system than to give the evidence presented to you the benefit of the doubt (which is my best guess of what you're doing here). I cannot present other evidence than the one you have presented because it's all we've got so far. If I find more evidence, I'll be happy to present it.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 You haven't used no ancient text to prove your case that Jesus never existed because no just text exist to prove your argument.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Ancient text are the sole source of proof? On the contrary BigMike, ancient texts are so vague and much of the solid evidence is so old and fragile that cannot be confirmed without a doubt. On the contrary, our behavior as society and the patterns we find in our own behavior through time tells a story different from the common belief of a god. Look at the writings of Hitchens and Dawkins, very interesting reading.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 I also mentioned archaeology which backs up with what's written in the gospels. Not only that, New Testament scholars date the gospels between 59 AD-60 AD & the rest of the New Testament in the 1st century, so the eyewitnesses were still alive to confirm the fact Jesus rose from the dead. The ancient Non-Christian that I mentioned, the scholars date their writings within a generation of the New Testament. Scholars date the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus between 30-33AD.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Will you please cite your sources? I will investigate it, that's for sure !! Unlike others, I am completely willing to change my mind if solid evidence is presented. Thanks BigMike, for your patience :)
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 I already mentioned some like Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian of Samosata & others. Google them.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 read The Case for Christ, Case for the Real Jesus, I Don't Have Enough to be Atheist by Norman Geilser, & Frank Turek, Cracking Da Vinci's Code by James Garlow & Peter Jones.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 (continue): With that being said plus the fact the Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger & other ancient Non-Christian historians never accused the gospel writers of lying, 30 years is way too early for the resurrection of Jesus to be a myth. Hitchens & Dawkins would love to say realistically that Jesus is a myth but based on the evidence that exist today, Jesus is far from a myth.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 I will keep researching BigMike, I will keep looking for the truth until my last breath because it's too exciting and I'm too curious to just let it go and live like a another sheep in the herd. If you're happy with your belief system, good for you and I'm glad god is working out for you. It hasn't worked out for me and that's why I'll keep looking for the truth. God or no god, the truth is out there, we just need to find it.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The truth is already out you're not looking in the right spots
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The truth & evidence for Jesus already exist some of which I shared with you.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Something else I find funny BigMike is that Jesus never performed any miracles that invovled the creation of a new limb for an amputee. Usually his miracles were directed towards people who had legs and couldn't walk, or people who had eyes but couldn't see. Quite interesting too, that the creator of the universe is unable and/or unwilling to save us all from damnation. I find so many flaws in the god arguments, that's why it's so easy for me to discard them as fiction.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Jesus may have performed just a miracle you are referring to but the gospel writers may have choose not to include it. But that don't prove that they lied because the enemies of Christianity never accused them of making the whole thing up.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Isn't that convenient BigMike? The gospel writers just "oops!" those little details out, ON PURPOSE!! Nonetheless. The lack of an accusation or the existence of one proves nothing. It's only an accusation, it's not factual until it's proven one way or the other. So it's up in the air still isn't it? We're drawing different conclusions based on our interpretations of the different texts but there's still no evidence proving the deity or existence of Jesus. Again, I'll keep lookin
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 A lot of what's written about Jesus the gospels is based on oral traditions, so the stories about Jesus was done by mouth. Not only that, they committed to memory a lot of who Jesus said & did & pass it along accurately. As a result, whoever told the story of Jesus in various ways, paraphrasing what Jesus said, or omit certain things to bring something specifically what Jesus said. Just because a gospel writer omitted something don't mean they lied about what they wrote.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Like I said before when scholars look at the differences that exists in the gospels show that they were being truthful especially since they died brutal, torturous deaths proclaiming that Jesus rose from the dead.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 (continue) has no relevance to reliably to gospel accounts & Jesus.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 (cont) but of course, that cannot be provided for the same reason we cannot analyze the golden plates of the mormons, because these also (conveniently) ascended into heaven after Joseph Smith translated them. I find the exact same convenience here, no evidence of Jesus, no evidence of golden plates. This lack of physical evidence is what makes me doubt the entire existence of Jesus and obviously his deity.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 There is evidence for the existence Jesus and I mentioned some of the evidence. Tacitus mentioned in his book called The Annals that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontus Pilatus." No historian has successfully disputed this passage neither have they disputed the passages of Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata & other ancient Christian & Non-Christian writers who mention Jesus.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Because there is no evidence of his existence outside ancient writings. If any evidence of his existence or divinity could be found in a tomb, an ancient rock or a piece of cloth, it would have been destroyed with time, 2000 years is a very long time to keep something intact. That's what I'm saying, it's not a personal attack against religious people, it's against the philosophies of religion that are based on nothing!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 That goes to show that you're committed to your bias to take the evidence seriously. Plus ancient historian like Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucias, Josephus & other Non-Christians writers all have mention Jesus in their writings, including his death, burial, & resurrection. There are ancient Christians writers who have mention Jesus, so there is a lot of evidence for for proofing that Jesus existing outside the New Testament.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
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bigmike5989 4 months ago
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bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Where do you think I should go? The Bible is unreliable evidence that can be torn to pieces and disproved in a matter of seconds. Other writings are that, other writings which prove nothing. Don't you find it strange that no miracle has ever involved the creation of a new limb for an amputee? Jesus' miracles are nothing compared to the creation of the Universe. I would be very disappointed in Jesus even if his miracles were true.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The Bible, especially when it comes to the life of Jesus, have been proven to be true beyond a shadow of doubt by Christian & Non-Christians scholar through eyewitness testimony, ancient Christian writings, which include the gospels, & Non-Christian writings, archaeology & things of that nature.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 God created the universe and the Jesus have performed miracles by the will of God. Quran 3.49 : "I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe."
Indiana0777 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Plus there places in the gospels where Jesus refer to himself as the 'Son of man'.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 And in the end I think we will never know because even if we tried DNA tests on the "evidence" found by the Catholic church, we have nothing to compare it to. It could have been from a corpse that decomposed 300 years ago and I think no ancient rag could last 2000 years. Maybe a plastic shopping bag could last that long, but not a piece of cloth made by people 2000 years ago, unless it fossilized of course, but if it did, it would have irrecoverable traces of DNA...
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 You're playing semantics because the the current evidence is not even dependent DNA but it is dependent on the fact that the gospels were written within two generations after the life of Jesus, which means that the eyewitnesses were still alive when the original disciples were saying that Jesus is God & that he rose from the dead. Plus, the Roman government & the Jewish religious leaders from the 1st century never accused them of making the whole thing up in their writings.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Plus all of the gospel writers mention that the women who followed Jesus were the ones who found the tomb of Jesus empty & he appeared to them first. If the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus was a lie, the gospel writers would have said that the Peter, James & John were the discoverers of the empty tomb, not the women followers considering that women were not allowed to testify in a 1st century Jewish court of law. You haven't proven that Jesus denied being God.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 Which still cannot be used as evidence anyway. Jesus was not the only one claiming divinity on this world. There have been many others, except Jesus is one of the most famous ones on this continent. Celebrity status doesn't prove divinity either; claiming you are God does not prove it, having many writings by many authors is not proof. There are many writers out there who talk about the "Quixote de la Mancha", which does not make the character real.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 The celebrity status thing you bring has no relevance because you haven't proven that Jesus denied being God. Plus Christian & non-Christian scholars who have studied the life of Jesus all agree that the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus is a actual historic event.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 If Jesus didn't claim to God or rise from the dead, you have to explain why the writings of non-Christian historians who mentions Jesus are pretty consistent with what's written in the gospels & what the Christians believed. The only logical explanation is that Jesus did claim to be God & that he rose from the dead, & any other argument does a poor job explaining that.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@maxamed4yare Christianity came existence no later than 33 AD & Islam came on the scene at 622 AD, all historians agree with those dates. For you to say that Jesus was a Muslim is a historically inaccurate statement to make. If you look at John 5:27 Jesus uses the 'Son of man' phrase & he was referring to himself. Son of man is a claim of deity, read Daniel 7:13-14.
bigmike5989 4 months ago in playlist case
Jesus' tomb was empty because he never existed. I will believe in Jesus when he comes down in the clouds (as said in the Bible, event which we've been waiting for... How many years???) in his full glory; that will at least be something to experience, instead of just discussions and ancient mythical stories written by who knows who!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Your first sentence has no no logic because ancient non-Christian historians mention Jesus in their writings. Pliny the Younger mention that Christians "honor Christ as if to a god". Tacitus mention that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontuis Pilate." All four gospels mention that women discovered the empty tomb because back during the 1st century, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law.
bigmike5989 4 months ago in playlist case
@happyraver1958 Your first sentence has no no logic because ancient non-Christian historians mention Jesus in their writings. Pliny the Younger mention that Christians "honor Christ as if to a god". Tacitus mention that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontuis Pilate." All four gospels mention that women discovered the empty tomb because back during the 1st century, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law.
bigmike5989 4 months ago in playlist case
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@happyraver1958 Your first sentence has no no logic because ancient non-Christian historians mention Jesus in their writings. Pliny the Younger mention that Christians "honor Christ as if to a god". Tacitus mention that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontuis Pilate." All four gospels mention that women discovered the empty tomb because back during the 1st century, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law.
bigmike5989 4 months ago in playlist case
@happyraver1958 If the gospel writers were lying, they would have said that Jesus' male disciples were the ones who found the tomb empty, not his female disciples.
bigmike5989 4 months ago in playlist case
@bigmike5989 I don't think it makes a difference bigmike5989, what's important to me is that if there were any witnesses at all, are long dead and gone and we can't ask them what they saw. They could be lying, they could have been high, who knows!! The author who wrote it could have made up the disciples as he/she made up Jesus. How are we supposed to confirm anything? Hell, we can't even confirm if what the media told us about 9/11 is true, much less what happened about 2000 years ago!!!
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Someone can make the claim that the gospel writers were lying. Two of the gospel writers, Matthew & John, were actually two of the original 12 disciples of Jesus, so they know what Jesus said & did. Mark wrote what Peter told him & Luke said in the opening verses of his gospel that "Many have undertaken to draw an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first eyewitnesses & servants of the word. Therefore
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 (continue): since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning. it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." (Luke 1:1-4). The point is that the gospel writers made sure that they had the facts straight about the before they wrote them down. Plus the gospels were written within 30 years after the life of Jesus, which means that eyewitness
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 (continue): were still alive when they were being circulated. All four gospels say that the women disciples of Jesus found his tomb empty. In 1st century Jewish society, women were not allowed to testify in a Jewish court of law. So if the gospel writers were lying, they would have said that the male disciples discovered the tomb empty, not the women disciples. Plus the enemies of Christianity did not accuse the disciples of lying about the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@bigmike5989 As pedgarrett123 mentioned, the gospels are not reliable because they're not consistent. Any writings that were made after the authors of the gospels finished and published their writings will obviously be compromised too because supposed "eye witnesses" cannot agree on how things happened. From what I can tell based on your postings, the fame of Jesus spreaded throughout the land which made Jesus famous and controversial, not a god.
happyraver1958 4 months ago
@happyraver1958 Actually historians are skeptical when anything from ancient history have no so-called contradictions in them, so the gospel accounts pass with flying colors. So the fact that the differences that exist in the gospels don't call into question their reliably.
bigmike5989 4 months ago
@TheDarvus Please spare me the rubbish mate. You choose to believe your little foolish story. I will believe the story that I am convicted of by experience and scholarly perfection. Just remember your little story does not save a soul or edify a soul. The life of Jesus transforms lives and hearts and gives eternal life to multitudes. You're little fictional story does nothing but damn souls. End of thread!
MTLministries 5 months ago
The Gospels don't agree at all on the resurrection story. Matthew says the women saw an Angel rolled the stone away, the others say it was already rolled away. Matthew says 1 Angel was in the tomb, Mark says 1 man, Luke says 2 men and John says 2 Angels. Matthew and Luke say Jesus could be touched after he was resurrected and John says he couldn't be touched. READ YOUR BIBLES!!! The time of day and how may women there were also contradicts...
pedgarrett123 5 months ago
Jesus said: "Touch me not, for I have not yet arisen to MY father and YOUR father, MY GOD and YOUR GOD.
Does that sound like Jesus WAS God?
Matthew1944 5 months ago
can we be sure jesus fitting the old testament prophesies was not people writing things about him after a real person lived and died? oh wait, that is what actually happened.
If you want to make up your mind about the divinity of jesus, watch these
an empty tomb does not prove anything. sorry. not proof
watch?v=wrCug6zx3Hg
watch?v=ko3DfS3Of88
kelbykross1 5 months ago
@TheDarvus Sorry mate, but thousands of scholars worth their salt claim the Bible is true. Don't assume just because you don't believe it, that if someone else does that they are fools. The Bible stands ultimately between the saved and the unsaved. What you choose in relation to its authenticity, you will have to live with for eternity. Your choice.
MTLministries 5 months ago
and how much money has this guy made shouting this BS???
glannis1 6 months ago
Just read Matthieu 4:1 to 4:10 and you will understand that :
4:1 : jesus is not God / 4:4 : Islam is the way / 4:6 : jesus was not crucified / 4:10 : jesus worshiped God.
May God guide you Incha Allah
Indiana0777 6 months ago
@Indiana0777 There no historic basis for saying that Jesus wasn't crucified. In his book Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus wrote, "At this time, there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews & the other nations becames his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified & to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after
bigmike5989 6 months ago
@bigmike5989
God will never let him die on the cross; Matthew 4.7 "...He will give his angels care over you; and, In their hands they will keep you up, SO THAT YOUR FOOT MAY NOT BE CRUSHED AGAINST A STONE "how could he be crucified ? you forgot that we have limited reason because we are simple human being. your conclusions are rationnal regarding a very special man (no father - magic power...). the holy Quran gives the irrationnal answer.
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 In this verse, Satan was tempting Jesus to jump off the temple by twisting Psalm 90:11-12, you're doing the same thing, & Jesus fought back quoting the 1st part Deuteronomy 6:16 which say "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Plus there are non-Christian historians like Tacitus & Josephus who did mention in their writings that Jesus did died on the cross, they were not Christian-friendly to say the least.
bigmike5989 5 months ago
@bigmike5989 How Satan or myself can tempt God ? Who is Satan? Why he is on earth? because he disobeyed to God, his creator. We are on earth, because Adam and Eve disobeyed to God. Satan tempts humans, because they are weak not God his creator - because he wants us to join him into hell; Regarding the crucifixion, I refer to Matthew to have the answer : if the Angels would not let the foot of Jesus hit a stone how they let him be crucified ? and the Quran to have the confirmation.
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 What I was saying is that you are misquoting that verse like Satan, but I wasn't accusing you of tempting God. Satan, on the other hand, was tempting Jesus because at the beginning of Matthew 4:6 Satan said "If thou be the Son of God," then quoted Psalm 90:11-12 to try to get Jesus to slip up, that's what temptation is. Christians & non-Christians scholars don't use the Quran as a credible source for the life because was written 600 years after the life of Jesus.
bigmike5989 5 months ago
@bigmike5989 sorry but it makes no sense for me that satan, creation of God , was tempting God. 4.9 : no sense that satan asked God to worship him. but Satan wants that human beings worship him on a way or an other and do not worship God as they have to do. Quran has been memorised during prophet life time. and has been written just afetr his death. in only 1 language. The bible has been written and translated 2 or 300 years after the life of Jesus.
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 In regards to your last sentence, the facts is not on your side because the Greek Manuscripts are dated within two to three generations after the the originals written, which was before 100 AD. The Gospel account based on eyewitness account, which is why the Quran is not a credible source for the life of Jesus. The Gospel accounts have been backed up by ancient historians, like Tacitus & Josephus, & archeaology.
bigmike5989 5 months ago
@bigmike5989 You reject the Quran that you consider as non credible source because non eyewitness and 600 years after jesus. but you accept the several contradictions and mistakes of the bible. Up to you. you forget that Jesus came 2000 years after Moses. What about Moses teaching ? did jesus not come primarily for the children of Israel ?
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 A lot of scholars, both Christians & non-Christians, do too. What you contradictions are really complimentary because scholars are skeptical when a historical writing has no so-called contradictions. The fact that there are differences in the gospel accounts means that the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus is an actual historical event.
bigmike5989 5 months ago
@bigmike5989 No Doubt on Jesus live but as a messenger or prophet or son of God if you prefer but human being not God. the Quran confirms 3:55" And when Allah said: O Issa (jesus), I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed".
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 Jesus is God u musslims give God 99 names and two of those names are THE FIRST and THE LAST and Jesus said he is the FIRST and The LAST Rev 1:17-18 Rev 2:8 Rev 22:12-16
njfreddy 5 months ago
@njfreddy other name is Peace:Matthew 10.34"Do not have the thought that I have come to send peace on the earth; I came not to send peace but a sword".this a parable to say that Jesus will put believers against non believers,those who follow God commandments vs who not. Other name:"al Mushi" means the one that counts everything and nothing escapes from him.Matthew 10.29"and not one of them comes to an end without your Father" 10.30"and the hairs of your head are all numbered". Jesus is not God
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 Jesus is God!! why do u think he forgave sins?? and only God can do that!! or raise people from the dead?? raise himself from the dead?? and the big one! He never ever EVER commited a single sin he lived his entire life (33 years) without ever sinning No human can do that unless ur ...thats right GOD!!
njfreddy 5 months ago
@njfreddy Other prophets have done miracles and they are not god; Put the Bible aside 10 seconds. if jesus is god, he created Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve had children and then Mary. and Mary gave birth to Jesus, the one who created ...Adam and Eve.and he created Adam w/o father and mother , but he (the God for u) was born from a mother. Sorry no sense for me.
So who is Jesus for u ? God or son of God. the creator or the son of the creator? he has been created or have been created?
Indiana0777 5 months ago
@Indiana0777 I believe that Jesus is God. God in the Old Testament is referred to as I am, The First & The Last, Savior, Alpha & Omega, Lord, Judge, Light, Rock, Redeemer, Shepherd, forgiver of sin, Creator, King, & speaker with divine authority. These same terms applied to Jesus in the New Testament. That tell me that Jesus is God.
bigmike5989 5 months ago
@bigmike5989 Other terms are applied in the old and New testament. Esaie 11.3 about jesus "the spirit of knowledge and OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD; Matthew 6.1-6-18 : jesus speaks and says"YOUR father"and not MY father;10.29 "... without YOUR Father".John 8.16"...because I am not by myself-with me is THE Father who SENT ME".8.26"but he WHO SENT ME is true"; 8.28 "I do nothing of myself".8.40 "a man who has said to you what is true, as I had it FROM GOD.
Indiana0777 5 months ago