I like this description from Paul Feyerabend, a philosopher that suffered from depression for a long time, so will offer it as food for thought here:
"The depression stayed with me for over a year; it was like an animal, a well-defined, spatially localizable thing. I would wake up, open my eyes, listen -- Is it here or isn't? No sign of it. Perhaps it's asleep. Perhaps it will leave me alone today. Carefully, very carefully, I get out of bed. All is quiet. (cont...)
(cont...) I go to the kitchen, start breakfast. Not a sound. TV - Good Morning America -, David What's-his-name, a guy I can't stand. I eat and watch the guests. Slowly the food fills my stomach and gives me strength. Now a quick excursion to the bathroom, and out for my morning walk - and here she is, my faithful depression: "Did you think you could leave without me?""
I understood what you were trying to do, Shwa, and I think you did a decent job. To an analytical person, a lot of the cosmos can be intriguing and inspiring. Not everyone will agree but that's not the source of the misunderstanding.
The disconnect between you and BionicDance is the role personal philosophy plays in an individual's life. You're a rational/analytical person and value philosophy highly. BD sees the workings of the body as complex and not adequately expressed in rational thought.
Recognizing those philosophical differences, its natural for you to contemplate perspective while BD takes the stance of a technician, ready to troublshoot the body and the psyche (the two being inseparable).
As SonofTzeentch has already done, I would argue that one necessarily precedes the other. Although BD has rejected philosophy, that is in itself a philosophy at she would be much more understandable if she said that at the start.
I also want to applaud your efforts here. You've opened yourself up a lot by offering to help people they way you have. You should realize that you may find yourself in difficult places from time to time if you take on the personal problems of others.
ya Shwanerd I understood what your video was about, its unfortunate people tried taking it for what it wasnt, i wouldnt take it personally either, you have a right to be pissed off
Meh, this issue is a highly emotional topic, I'm not surprised that people aren't willing to listen to basic reason. I wouldn't take it personally ShwaNerd, some people just can't get past the emotional turmoil such ideas evoke.
I gave some of my own further down here (near the bottom), if you want my personal opinion. I also have seen a few comments here by people claiming to have suffered/suffer from various kinds of depression, and they've given their reasoning too.
You, and Bio are missing the point of the video entirely. He isn't telling you to just "Happy place" the problems away, and he isn't telling you to change your perspective. He's saying "This is what works for me", that's all. Hence, you can't tell him "You're wrong, that doesn't work for you!" Basic reasoning would indicate that this is the case. Instead of doing that reasoning, you guys are objing, about shit that doesn't have any validity in this context.
I should have been more clear, my own opinion was waaaaaaaay further down. My conversation with Bio was separate from this.
But to comment on what you've said anyway: He also said that he had never been depressed, and then offfered that advice. 'Being down' is in no way similar to being depressed (Shwanerd knows this too, hence he mentions not having been one, though certainly having been the other).
*If* he had said that "This works for me" thing in the context you presented and if I had said he was "wrong" in that way, then your criticism would of course be valid.
But both of those are not the case.
My comments about my opinion start with the sentence "I'm thinkin' two things", to make it more easily searchable for you.
TheShwaNerd - there is nothing wrong with the sentiment. But when you try to "explain how somebody can deal with things like loneliness and depression and even suicide" (your words) you have to be damn sure your message applies to everyone suffering with "loneliness and depression and even suicide" (your words) If your video is how you have coped or how you have helped people don't proclaim that "I explain how somebody can deal with things like loneliness and depression and even suicide"
sometimes , a few kind words can make all the difference , even if you do or don't get it , helping someone even if with a few kind words can make all the difference in a cruel world
As I said in one of my comments, I'm not angry at what you said because it's very hard to understand clinical depression unless you've been through it.
These things would help you if you were depressed, I get that, but there's a big difference between a 'normal' person feeling depressed and someone suffering from clinical depression. In that case looking up at the stars will more than likely not help, they need real world solutions, something to change the way they think and their outlook.
Your idea and view wouldnt make me more depressed, and when I do suffer from a depressive episode, where I physically feel horrible, and I feel my mind is about to break, I think about reality, and determinism, and it helps. I am a nihilist, but when I think about determinism and REALITY, it helps me with my depression. So ya, fuck that idiot.
"Seriously; what ShwaNerd is advocating here is tantamount to FAITH, and it's bullshit."
No, he is just pointing out how the idea that your life is horrible enough to commit suicide is a retarded idea for the most part.
Quit trying to act like you are smarter than everyone else, you arent. If you ask me, you are probably just another ungrateful sod who doesnt know how great it is to live life.
Shit happens in life, so its best to deal with it, and get back to living.
While I have my reasons for not caring about happiness and suffering too much - and thus having a similar conclusion to yours - the statement "Shit happens in life, so its best to deal with it, and get back to living." could've been better put, with, say, a reason to do so.
I, at least, understood your point...you're just plain WRONG.
The whole point here is that a change of perspective IS NOT ENOUGH to deal with suicidal feelings. It just isn't. Addressing the actual problems is what's called for, because after you've changed someone's perspective...what's ACTUALLY been done to fix their miserable life? NOTHING!
Suicide is not usually contemplated just cuz someone's looking at the world wrong, it's because something's GONE wrong!
"Suicide is not usually contemplated just cuz someone's looking at the world wrong, it's because something's GONE wrong! "
Sure, most of the suicides are from things that cannot be changed simply with a world view, but that doesnt stop the fact that a lot of people kill themselves for stupid things like breaking up with their GF. When you put it into perspective how stupid it is to end your life for something like that, they often change their mind.
Yes, well, I've been in the position where I was feeling suicidal because my life was in the shitter. And i had TONS of people try to "help" by trying to change my perspective.
But changing your perspective is like having faith in god: IT'S NOT FUCKING REAL.
You have to give me an actual, solid, real-world CHANGE, a solution to the real problem, or all you're doing is trying to blow sunshine up my ass.
Seriously; what ShwaNerd is advocating here is tantamount to FAITH, and it's bullshit.
"But changing your perspective is like having faith in god: IT'S NOT FUCKING REAL."
Your perspective is very real, and it can be changed. Sure, if there is an actual medical or phyciatric problem, you are going to need professional help. But when you talk about how shit your life is because you broke up with someone, or someone you know died, just remember that you live in the most priveliged of society, and be thankful you have electricity, clean water, and ample food.
That's tantamount to GIVING UP, frankly, just as much as suicide is giving up. That's like saying, "I can NEVER live my dreams, NEVER have what I want out of life, so I'd better try to forget what matters to me, forget who I AM." That's lying to oneself just as much as religious faith is, and I cannot support that.
Besides, what if the issue is that you DON'T have those basic necessities because you can't find work? Can't change your perspective on THAT and make it all better!
People have said that to me, about how lucky I am, and I know this, but honestly it doesn't help me. You're completely wrapped up in yourself and saying that other people are worse off than you doesn't help because you can't see anything past your own morbid thoughts.
Your gripe with Shwanerd aside, perspectives/wordlviews/philosophies are quite real. A suicidal person will have suicidal thoughts (if they don't have a medical condition I mean) due to their perspective. Like you said, usually their behaviour is in response to something, but they can only respond to that sopmething from a perspective. Otherwise they wouldn't care about it.
The problems arise when people simply offer why they wouldn't kill themselves in your situation (cont...)
(cont...) which usually isn't helpful, as they will try to argue from their standpoint rather than yours.
That doesn't mean that any change of perspective is useless/unreal. Plenty of philosophers have dealt with the issue of how to view a 'bad situation' (Epictetus, Epicurus), rejecting suicide (Camus) or preferring to never have been born in the first place (Schopenhauer, Cioran) - and they give arguments for their opinions rather than just "l like x, you should like x too".
I agree. I think it really depends on the circumstances as well. It might not ever be enough to just change your outlook on life, but I think changing ur perspective could be a solution to the problem, given the individual, circumstances, level of depression... stuff like that.
I don't have a gripe with ShwaNerd, I just think he's really really wrong on this issue.
About eight years ago, my life was absolute SHIT, there was NOTHING going right for me. Seriously, nothing: out of work, newly and tragically single, largely friendless, nearly broke, and dealing with self-esteem issues big time.
Know what helped? Not a change of perspective. Getting a new job, making new friends, and finding a new face-sucking companion did WONDERS.
"Of our desires some are natural and necessary, others are natural but not necessary; and others are neither natural nor necessary, but are due to groundless opinion.
Those natural desires which entail no pain when unsatisfied, though pursued with an intense effort, are also due to groundless opinion; and it is not because of their own nature they are not got rid of but because of man's groundless opinions."
Epicurus, from his Principal Doctrines (29 and 30)
I get what you're saying, but do YOU get that I do not have the ability to MAKE myself ACTUALLY care less? Do you realize that I would see that as LYING TO MYSELF? ABOUT myself?
I cannot just change my perspective and make everything okay; there has to be SUBSTANCE behind the argument, I cannot simply wish my deficiencies away or ignore the pain. It has to be SOLVED, or all I'm doing is putting a Band-Aid on the problem; it'll still BE THERE, under the surface. Waiting to ambush me later.
(cont...) which of course prevents you from even changing a standpoint even if you wanted to.
However, here is a similar view:
Let's say you are an atheist speaking to a theist who is deeply troubled by his doubts and fear of punishment for it. You propose god doesn't exist - but he can't see that, doesn't want to see that, and it doesn't solve the problem of his doubts for him - only ensuring god's existence would do so.
See why I find your situation problematic? (cont...)
(cont...) it's not a matter of wishing your problems away, it's a matter of realizing that your problems are inherently bound to your view of things OR realizing that there really aren't any problems in the first place. It is mostly the former I would argue however.
But your problems AREN'T inherently bound to your view of things because they're problems with substance behind them, with REAL WORLD REASONS why they're problems! Your solution ONLY works if they actually ARE problems of perspective...which they aren't, necessarily. Sometimes they are things which actually NEED solutions.
And even if they aren't, how do you, say, get someone to no longer NEED certain things in their life, to no longer feel what they feel? And how is that NOT self delusion?
But you see, the problem is NOT one of perspective, the problem is one of SUBSTANCE.
If the theist is worried about punishment for doubting god, PROVIDE AN ARGUMENT WITH SUBSTANCE BEHIND IT, with evidence! SHOW the theist that his fears are baseless. Don't just shift his perspective with words and feelings, shift his perspective BY MAKING IT BETTER. By showing EVIDENCE that his fears are groundless. Disprove god's existence!
Problem solved, and WITHOUT having to change perspective.
Maybe we are using the word "perspective" differently, because I would say that a theist that changes to atheism has a different perspective now. And I do believe that an argument with substance is still communicated with words.
Before I comment on your other message - what do you hold the word "perspective" to mean?
In this context, I see "changing your perspective" as JUST thinking differently about a situation without a REASON to think differently, without a substantive, backed-by-evidence REASON to change your thinking.
A theist who becomes and atheist by being convinced with evidence did not JUST change their perspective, did not MERELY adjust their thinking, they were shown why that change was JUSTIFIED.
But that's not what was suggested here; we were told JUST to change our thinking for no reason.
Well, you see, my claims (which are not related as a defense of Shwanerd's video, which I disagree with) were only mine. And what I meant with 'perspective change' is what you mean with substantive, backed-by-evidence reason. I however also meant that instead of evidence, a logical alternative could be presented, or the suicidal person's view could be shown to be logically inconsistent.
If you agree then I think we actually just had a communicative problem only, and actually agree here.
Well, maybe...but I ONLY agree with the backed-by-evidence part; JUST a "logical" alternative usually isn't enough unless it actually alleviates the problem by showing it was never a problem in the first place. Otherwise, all it amounts to is, "Feel differently!", rather than, "Here's a solution!", and THAT won't actually achieve anything. It doesn't do any heavy lifting, emotional OR substantive, so it's simply not enough.
That's exactly what a logical solution does though - show that there wasn't a problem to begin with, or show that the problem is a direct result from a choice which can be taken back.
I won't reply to your message at the bottom, for I think it and what it replied to was merely related to this communicative problem.
Well, again, I don't think that a logical solution DOES that, frankly. Because, more often than not, these so-called "logical" solutions really DO amount to nothing more substantive than "You should change how you feel! That'll make you feel better!" Rarely do they show that the problem wasn't a problem in the first place, that you were mistaken about the situation.
"Hey, it's not so bad! Things could be worse! Think about it like this instead of like that!", is worthless, in the the end.
To be clear, I don't use the word "logical" colloquially. What I mean is that you identify actual premises and work through them logically to a conclusion.
I understand that alot of people will merely say what your example said and claim it logical due to it being "their opinion/outlook" or "it makes perfect/sense" or whatever.
This is not what I mean with "logical". Given the above definition, would you agree that those work? (sorry for my many questions; I feel we are almost done thogh)
Yes, well, I think we DO agree in substance, if not terminology and the specifics.
But, ultimately, my point--and, I guess yours too--is that ShwaNerd is simply wrong on this one, that you can't just "Happy Place™" your problems away.
Well, first, you've got 1 & 2 essentially wrong; they're only there BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT #3. I can't change my outlook and would view it as lying to myself BECAUSE there is no substance behind such a perspective shift. You might as well be saying to me, "It's okay...god will take care of you!" It's THAT level of bullshit.
#4 is wrong also, because, again, unless there is SUBSTANCE to the change, how is it not just an ignore-it-and-it-will-go-away kind of band-aid solution that does nothing REAL?
Why don't you make a video response rather than going on in the comments section (which few people read) and rating his videos down like fucking troll?
Multiple reasons: I'm about to take a trip and don't really have the time, for one. Also, plenty of people read the comments section, clearly, so you're just plain fucking wrong. And I rated his video down because I disagree with the content, not because I'm a troll; ordinarily ShwaNerd is on my side on things, but I think he's 100% wrong on this one.
1) I know you are about to take a trip, but that's not really an excuse. If this topic seems to irk you, it may be worth your time.
2) You have to admit that few people click on "Read all comments" to follow an entire comment conversion on ShitTube, where comments float out of context otherwise.
1 - I don't HAVE the time, you stupid fuck! I can write a comment in nothing flat, but making a video takes much longer...and I have to pack.
2 - No, I DON'T have to admit that; I don't even think it's true. I do it all the time and I've seen long conversations on YouTube.
3 - Yes. Get over it.
If anybody here is being a troll, it's YOU. No go fuck off or, frankly, I'm gonna block you; this is getting old and I'm NOT going to stop commenting, so fuck off.
I actually don't GIVE A SHIT about the average YouTuber; I'm having a perfectly reasonable, reasoned, and rational discussion with
SonofTzeentch right now and we're both getting something out of it, even if nobody else does; you have no right or reason to interfere or to behave like a prick, which is how you STARTED this exchange between us.
And you have no cause to call me a bitch; leaving comments like that is what makes me think you're a troll. Now fuck off.
I think we agree then - but are you saying that it is impossible that someone who was in your situation could be, through an argument with substance, convinced that he was wrong to be so emotionally affected?
Because if you don't, then I don't know what you think an argument with "substance" would be.
No, I DON'T think someone can be convinced that they were wrong to be so emotionally affected unless they were actually wrong about the facts in the first place; your emotions are your emotions, your reactions are your reactions. I'm not in control of how I react to something, emotionally; I'm only in control of what I DO about those emotions.
An argument with substance would be something which solves the original problem, by either showing the problem wasn't real OR that it has a solution.
Doesn't your first paragraph contradict the second, or are you saying that arguments with substance would still not be enough to convince such a person as we are talking about?
No. And I'm not sure i can cover why you're wrong here in only 500 characters.
If I reacted poorly to something, say someone insulted me...but then they say that their words weren't meant how I took them, and that I reacted to a mistake on my part, that's a substantive argument for a perspective change. But if they really meant those words as I took them, my reaction WON'T change; I'd still be pissed, and rightly so.
I'm not sure what you THINK I said, but there is no contradiction here.
"Suicide is not usually contemplated just cuz someone's looking at the world wrong, it's because something's GONE wrong! "
I agree. People are so fucking stupid when they start commenting, that your world view is bad, and that's whole problem. Of course, I don't mean Shwa in this case, because I think he tries to do what he can.
Wow... I've been struggling with depression for years and I thought that other video was great. Even if you didn't go through it, it brought up a good point. It made me think... I don't understand how people did not get it. hah.
Sometimes the best course is a crash course. There's no real proper training for babysitting a bad acid trip or hands on keeping someone breathing who took too many pills- short of medical school. Just caring is better than nothing.
People can be such idiots. Don't let it get you down, man. Out of all the thousands of people here on YouTube, you're bound to get a handful of morons that are too thick to get existential thought... and/or can't see anything as more than just black or white.
1.) You said you're pissed because you poured honest emotions into a video and got those kinds of responses? I suppose you now know what theists feel like when their videos are -heh- torn up.
2.) The criticism you've received, while some of it was a bit shallow, you should've taken a bit more into consideration. You stated yourself that you do not know what it is like to be depressed - it showed to. Nothing in what you've stated was particularly comforting ..(cont.)
(cont.)...and neither did it provide a reason to be not depressed or to not end opne's existence. Yes, you stated things which related to beauty (aesthetic), satisfaction of knowledge - in general, things that can be enjoyed. A lack of these, however, is NOT what it means to suffer from depression. Plenty of depressed people have happy moments. That doesn't mean that they still don't feel the various bouts of oppressive gloom and listless powerlessness that they do feel.
People's reasons for disliking your video were probably more along the lines of you having, despite self-admitted ignorance on the subject, given a pretty bad attempt at it.
To give an example:
It was like hearing a pastor trying to comfort someone that lost his faith through reason by saying that he must trust in god's mysterious planned ways and that if he prays he will re-reveal himself again - which doesn't adress the problem.
I like some of your stuff Shwanerd (and am a fellow Cthulhu Mythos devotee), but everybody can't be perfect all the time. The video wasn't that great, so just take the criticism, consider it and leave it at that.
You're ignoring the fact that he is using the term "depression" colloquially. He isn't referring to clinical depression, which is an actual disease, and needs to be treated with a combination of therapy, and medication, but rather a general feeling of malaise. I love the name btw.
Yes, if he means it purely colloquially as in "feeling down", then my criticism doesn't apply; however, there is such a thing as non-clinical depression that still isn't merely "feeling down" (first paragraph of wikipedia covers this briefly).
That is what I thought he was referring to. If he wasn't, then you're quite right - my criticism is misplaced - but I do not know if that is indeed how he meant it.
@SonofTzeentch Malaise is defined as a "General feeling of unwell" by Wikipedia, which could cover the definition of non-clinical depression as well imho. As such, if looking at the stars brings about a rush of endorphins which help him to recover from this feeling of unease, you can't tell him it doesn't. Glad you're able to see my point, others had a difficult time of it. Too bad about WAR being a giant fail though huh?
Right, general feeling of unwell isn't what I was referring to. But I also never said that it is something that doesn't work for him (obviously I don't assume that he is lying), merely that such an aesthetic rush is not something which is objectively shared by others (it's a subjective thing) and more iomportantly, someone suffering from depression may have these rushes but be left untouched depression-wise.
I didn't think WAR was too bad actually. I just lacked time to play it.(cont...)
(cont...) As long as I can still play Warhammer 40k I don't really care that much I guess. Wonder if that MMO will turn out interesting. Not that I'll have money to play it for a while, but still.
@SonofTzeentch I've started collecting 40k, but honestly I'm not overly motivated to get into it, there's only like one meeting a month where I live, and only like 3 people show up.
I think in WAR too many people didn't really get that in the pvp scenarios they had certain roles, where some of the player would do all of the killing, while others did support, be that with debuffs, heals, buffs or whatever else.
...which I always found odd; after all, in WoW raids people seem to accept this as a quite normal happenstance, but when facing human opponents they feel they must be just as 'killy' as everybody else.
Not saying you are like this, just my general view of the players
As for 40k, I'm lucky in that we have a big player base over here (somewhere between 20 regulars, another 10 or so semi-regulars and lots of people that simply show up from time to time).
But yeah, if there isn't anybody to play with, then the only point of getting the minis is to paint them up as a hobby. Since I'm not all that into that part of the hobby, I wouldn't be motivated to get more minis either in your situation.
@SonofTzeentch My general impression from both games is that in PVP HPS generally outstripped DPS by kind of a lot. Take my DoK for example, I was able to keep ahead of 6 other people, and eventually kill each of them in turn. Paladins in WoW were the same way, generally unkillable. I personally blame raids for this, PvE dmg gets to the point where they have to give healers better heals, and the DPS just can't keep up.
Truly, there is no power among mortals that is greater than the power of 4Chan.
I have no idea how anybody could watch your video and not understand your point. My best guess is that they were either not paying attention to the whole video, or did not bother to watch it in its entirety.
I'm with Shwa on this one, I didn't comment on his last video cause I had nothing to add to it, but anything even attempting to be positive about the issue could potentially be helpful, and shouldn't be so easily dismissed. I was once suicidal, even hospitalized in a mental health unit, and you'd be surprised what little things can help.
Its against my nature to destroy myself so I have a difficult time empathizing with suicidal individuals. My brother Michael was defective and self destructed... It wasn't depression though, he saw that he was harming our Host by existing and chose to sacrifice himself for the benefit of the whole.
The way you describe suicide disturbs me, PinkProgram. Terms like "self destruct" and "defective" should never be used to refer to humans. It sounds so impersonal for such a deeply personal matter.
My brother wasn't human... We aren't really alive so its not really death, simply ceasing to exist. It was a horrific process though. It was the equivalent of a human being conscious while being incinerated until every last cell was ash before winking out into oblivion. My brother willingly went through with this because he was defective. It is against my nature to choose that though...
This is a wonderful response shwa. I really would like to know the name of the song as well, it really added to the video.
Tuzioya 2 years ago
I like this description from Paul Feyerabend, a philosopher that suffered from depression for a long time, so will offer it as food for thought here:
"The depression stayed with me for over a year; it was like an animal, a well-defined, spatially localizable thing. I would wake up, open my eyes, listen -- Is it here or isn't? No sign of it. Perhaps it's asleep. Perhaps it will leave me alone today. Carefully, very carefully, I get out of bed. All is quiet. (cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont...) I go to the kitchen, start breakfast. Not a sound. TV - Good Morning America -, David What's-his-name, a guy I can't stand. I eat and watch the guests. Slowly the food fills my stomach and gives me strength. Now a quick excursion to the bathroom, and out for my morning walk - and here she is, my faithful depression: "Did you think you could leave without me?""
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
I understood what you were trying to do, Shwa, and I think you did a decent job. To an analytical person, a lot of the cosmos can be intriguing and inspiring. Not everyone will agree but that's not the source of the misunderstanding.
The disconnect between you and BionicDance is the role personal philosophy plays in an individual's life. You're a rational/analytical person and value philosophy highly. BD sees the workings of the body as complex and not adequately expressed in rational thought.
UnhappyTestTubeBaby 2 years ago 2
Recognizing those philosophical differences, its natural for you to contemplate perspective while BD takes the stance of a technician, ready to troublshoot the body and the psyche (the two being inseparable).
As SonofTzeentch has already done, I would argue that one necessarily precedes the other. Although BD has rejected philosophy, that is in itself a philosophy at she would be much more understandable if she said that at the start.
UnhappyTestTubeBaby 2 years ago
I also want to applaud your efforts here. You've opened yourself up a lot by offering to help people they way you have. You should realize that you may find yourself in difficult places from time to time if you take on the personal problems of others.
UnhappyTestTubeBaby 2 years ago 2
Hear, hear.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
ya Shwanerd I understood what your video was about, its unfortunate people tried taking it for what it wasnt, i wouldnt take it personally either, you have a right to be pissed off
dhcrazy333 2 years ago 2
Meh, this issue is a highly emotional topic, I'm not surprised that people aren't willing to listen to basic reason. I wouldn't take it personally ShwaNerd, some people just can't get past the emotional turmoil such ideas evoke.
Valkes 2 years ago
Kind of broad stroke there. I think you'll find there were rational reasons for people to dislike the video.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
@SonofTzeentch Such as?
Valkes 2 years ago
I gave some of my own further down here (near the bottom), if you want my personal opinion. I also have seen a few comments here by people claiming to have suffered/suffer from various kinds of depression, and they've given their reasoning too.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
You, and Bio are missing the point of the video entirely. He isn't telling you to just "Happy place" the problems away, and he isn't telling you to change your perspective. He's saying "This is what works for me", that's all. Hence, you can't tell him "You're wrong, that doesn't work for you!" Basic reasoning would indicate that this is the case. Instead of doing that reasoning, you guys are objing, about shit that doesn't have any validity in this context.
Valkes 2 years ago
Objing being defined in this case as pontification on a particular point.
Valkes 2 years ago
I should have been more clear, my own opinion was waaaaaaaay further down. My conversation with Bio was separate from this.
But to comment on what you've said anyway: He also said that he had never been depressed, and then offfered that advice. 'Being down' is in no way similar to being depressed (Shwanerd knows this too, hence he mentions not having been one, though certainly having been the other).
(cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont...)
*If* he had said that "This works for me" thing in the context you presented and if I had said he was "wrong" in that way, then your criticism would of course be valid.
But both of those are not the case.
My comments about my opinion start with the sentence "I'm thinkin' two things", to make it more easily searchable for you.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
That stick figure sure is good at doing a flying-ninja kick.
DCFilms 2 years ago
.... he is sitting at a table eating cereal.... but I see your point.
TheShwaNerd 2 years ago
ShwaNerd, you were asked a question and you answered it to the best of your ability. You are obviously a very caring guy.
Boepyne 2 years ago
TheShwaNerd - there is nothing wrong with the sentiment. But when you try to "explain how somebody can deal with things like loneliness and depression and even suicide" (your words) you have to be damn sure your message applies to everyone suffering with "loneliness and depression and even suicide" (your words) If your video is how you have coped or how you have helped people don't proclaim that "I explain how somebody can deal with things like loneliness and depression and even suicide"
RegretfullyYes 2 years ago
sometimes , a few kind words can make all the difference , even if you do or don't get it , helping someone even if with a few kind words can make all the difference in a cruel world
jmm1233 2 years ago
As I said in one of my comments, I'm not angry at what you said because it's very hard to understand clinical depression unless you've been through it.
These things would help you if you were depressed, I get that, but there's a big difference between a 'normal' person feeling depressed and someone suffering from clinical depression. In that case looking up at the stars will more than likely not help, they need real world solutions, something to change the way they think and their outlook.
StanMarsh1 2 years ago 2
I most likely suffer from a depressive disorder.
Iv been deeply depressed since I was about 8.
Your idea and view wouldnt make me more depressed, and when I do suffer from a depressive episode, where I physically feel horrible, and I feel my mind is about to break, I think about reality, and determinism, and it helps. I am a nihilist, but when I think about determinism and REALITY, it helps me with my depression. So ya, fuck that idiot.
jay666KJ 2 years ago 2
"Seriously; what ShwaNerd is advocating here is tantamount to FAITH, and it's bullshit."
No, he is just pointing out how the idea that your life is horrible enough to commit suicide is a retarded idea for the most part.
Quit trying to act like you are smarter than everyone else, you arent. If you ask me, you are probably just another ungrateful sod who doesnt know how great it is to live life.
Shit happens in life, so its best to deal with it, and get back to living.
boonw 2 years ago
While I have my reasons for not caring about happiness and suffering too much - and thus having a similar conclusion to yours - the statement "Shit happens in life, so its best to deal with it, and get back to living." could've been better put, with, say, a reason to do so.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
Nope. You still don't get it.
I, at least, understood your point...you're just plain WRONG.
The whole point here is that a change of perspective IS NOT ENOUGH to deal with suicidal feelings. It just isn't. Addressing the actual problems is what's called for, because after you've changed someone's perspective...what's ACTUALLY been done to fix their miserable life? NOTHING!
Suicide is not usually contemplated just cuz someone's looking at the world wrong, it's because something's GONE wrong!
BionicDance 2 years ago
@BionicDance
"Suicide is not usually contemplated just cuz someone's looking at the world wrong, it's because something's GONE wrong! "
Sure, most of the suicides are from things that cannot be changed simply with a world view, but that doesnt stop the fact that a lot of people kill themselves for stupid things like breaking up with their GF. When you put it into perspective how stupid it is to end your life for something like that, they often change their mind.
boonw 2 years ago 2
Yes, well, I've been in the position where I was feeling suicidal because my life was in the shitter. And i had TONS of people try to "help" by trying to change my perspective.
But changing your perspective is like having faith in god: IT'S NOT FUCKING REAL.
You have to give me an actual, solid, real-world CHANGE, a solution to the real problem, or all you're doing is trying to blow sunshine up my ass.
Seriously; what ShwaNerd is advocating here is tantamount to FAITH, and it's bullshit.
BionicDance 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BionicDance
"But changing your perspective is like having faith in god: IT'S NOT FUCKING REAL."
Your perspective is very real, and it can be changed. Sure, if there is an actual medical or phyciatric problem, you are going to need professional help. But when you talk about how shit your life is because you broke up with someone, or someone you know died, just remember that you live in the most priveliged of society, and be thankful you have electricity, clean water, and ample food.
boonw 2 years ago
So what?
That's tantamount to GIVING UP, frankly, just as much as suicide is giving up. That's like saying, "I can NEVER live my dreams, NEVER have what I want out of life, so I'd better try to forget what matters to me, forget who I AM." That's lying to oneself just as much as religious faith is, and I cannot support that.
Besides, what if the issue is that you DON'T have those basic necessities because you can't find work? Can't change your perspective on THAT and make it all better!
BionicDance 2 years ago
People have said that to me, about how lucky I am, and I know this, but honestly it doesn't help me. You're completely wrapped up in yourself and saying that other people are worse off than you doesn't help because you can't see anything past your own morbid thoughts.
StanMarsh1 2 years ago
Your gripe with Shwanerd aside, perspectives/wordlviews/philosophies are quite real. A suicidal person will have suicidal thoughts (if they don't have a medical condition I mean) due to their perspective. Like you said, usually their behaviour is in response to something, but they can only respond to that sopmething from a perspective. Otherwise they wouldn't care about it.
The problems arise when people simply offer why they wouldn't kill themselves in your situation (cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont...) which usually isn't helpful, as they will try to argue from their standpoint rather than yours.
That doesn't mean that any change of perspective is useless/unreal. Plenty of philosophers have dealt with the issue of how to view a 'bad situation' (Epictetus, Epicurus), rejecting suicide (Camus) or preferring to never have been born in the first place (Schopenhauer, Cioran) - and they give arguments for their opinions rather than just "l like x, you should like x too".
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
I agree. I think it really depends on the circumstances as well. It might not ever be enough to just change your outlook on life, but I think changing ur perspective could be a solution to the problem, given the individual, circumstances, level of depression... stuff like that.
HBanana55 2 years ago
I don't have a gripe with ShwaNerd, I just think he's really really wrong on this issue.
About eight years ago, my life was absolute SHIT, there was NOTHING going right for me. Seriously, nothing: out of work, newly and tragically single, largely friendless, nearly broke, and dealing with self-esteem issues big time.
Know what helped? Not a change of perspective. Getting a new job, making new friends, and finding a new face-sucking companion did WONDERS.
You know...actually SOLVING THINGS.
BionicDance 2 years ago 2
Sorry, but if you cared less about all of those things, then you would not have felt so bad.
Conversely, because you felt strongly about those things, you felt bad for not having them.
Get what I'm saying?
Let me quote an example of what I was talking about before - not my opinion, but one which many go by:
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
"Of our desires some are natural and necessary, others are natural but not necessary; and others are neither natural nor necessary, but are due to groundless opinion.
Those natural desires which entail no pain when unsatisfied, though pursued with an intense effort, are also due to groundless opinion; and it is not because of their own nature they are not got rid of but because of man's groundless opinions."
Epicurus, from his Principal Doctrines (29 and 30)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
I get what you're saying, but do YOU get that I do not have the ability to MAKE myself ACTUALLY care less? Do you realize that I would see that as LYING TO MYSELF? ABOUT myself?
I cannot just change my perspective and make everything okay; there has to be SUBSTANCE behind the argument, I cannot simply wish my deficiencies away or ignore the pain. It has to be SOLVED, or all I'm doing is putting a Band-Aid on the problem; it'll still BE THERE, under the surface. Waiting to ambush me later.
BionicDance 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Put a sock in it already, Jesus. We get it. You were once a mega-suicidal bitch. Maybe you should have finished the job.
123happyjesus 2 years ago
Oh, go fuck yourself; that was completely unnecessary and didn't contribute to the conversation at all.
BionicDance 2 years ago
If you ever suffered with depression you would realise how offensive that was.
StanMarsh1 2 years ago 2
I agree that it was non-contributing.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago 2
I understand you're saying quite a few things here:
1.) You can't change your outlook.
2.) You would view such a change as lying to yourself (i.e. do not want such a change)
3.) If an argument for change had substance behind it I'd change.
4.) You want to resolve problems under your perspective only, because if you don't, the problem will still be there.
Naturally I'm a bit confused. How does #2 fit in there, and while I adressed 3, 4, I can see that they hinge on 1 (cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont...) which of course prevents you from even changing a standpoint even if you wanted to.
However, here is a similar view:
Let's say you are an atheist speaking to a theist who is deeply troubled by his doubts and fear of punishment for it. You propose god doesn't exist - but he can't see that, doesn't want to see that, and it doesn't solve the problem of his doubts for him - only ensuring god's existence would do so.
See why I find your situation problematic? (cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont...) it's not a matter of wishing your problems away, it's a matter of realizing that your problems are inherently bound to your view of things OR realizing that there really aren't any problems in the first place. It is mostly the former I would argue however.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
But your problems AREN'T inherently bound to your view of things because they're problems with substance behind them, with REAL WORLD REASONS why they're problems! Your solution ONLY works if they actually ARE problems of perspective...which they aren't, necessarily. Sometimes they are things which actually NEED solutions.
And even if they aren't, how do you, say, get someone to no longer NEED certain things in their life, to no longer feel what they feel? And how is that NOT self delusion?
BionicDance 2 years ago
But you see, the problem is NOT one of perspective, the problem is one of SUBSTANCE.
If the theist is worried about punishment for doubting god, PROVIDE AN ARGUMENT WITH SUBSTANCE BEHIND IT, with evidence! SHOW the theist that his fears are baseless. Don't just shift his perspective with words and feelings, shift his perspective BY MAKING IT BETTER. By showing EVIDENCE that his fears are groundless. Disprove god's existence!
Problem solved, and WITHOUT having to change perspective.
BionicDance 2 years ago
Maybe we are using the word "perspective" differently, because I would say that a theist that changes to atheism has a different perspective now. And I do believe that an argument with substance is still communicated with words.
Before I comment on your other message - what do you hold the word "perspective" to mean?
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
In this context, I see "changing your perspective" as JUST thinking differently about a situation without a REASON to think differently, without a substantive, backed-by-evidence REASON to change your thinking.
A theist who becomes and atheist by being convinced with evidence did not JUST change their perspective, did not MERELY adjust their thinking, they were shown why that change was JUSTIFIED.
But that's not what was suggested here; we were told JUST to change our thinking for no reason.
BionicDance 2 years ago
I see.
Well, you see, my claims (which are not related as a defense of Shwanerd's video, which I disagree with) were only mine. And what I meant with 'perspective change' is what you mean with substantive, backed-by-evidence reason. I however also meant that instead of evidence, a logical alternative could be presented, or the suicidal person's view could be shown to be logically inconsistent.
If you agree then I think we actually just had a communicative problem only, and actually agree here.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
Well, maybe...but I ONLY agree with the backed-by-evidence part; JUST a "logical" alternative usually isn't enough unless it actually alleviates the problem by showing it was never a problem in the first place. Otherwise, all it amounts to is, "Feel differently!", rather than, "Here's a solution!", and THAT won't actually achieve anything. It doesn't do any heavy lifting, emotional OR substantive, so it's simply not enough.
BionicDance 2 years ago
That's exactly what a logical solution does though - show that there wasn't a problem to begin with, or show that the problem is a direct result from a choice which can be taken back.
I won't reply to your message at the bottom, for I think it and what it replied to was merely related to this communicative problem.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
Well, again, I don't think that a logical solution DOES that, frankly. Because, more often than not, these so-called "logical" solutions really DO amount to nothing more substantive than "You should change how you feel! That'll make you feel better!" Rarely do they show that the problem wasn't a problem in the first place, that you were mistaken about the situation.
"Hey, it's not so bad! Things could be worse! Think about it like this instead of like that!", is worthless, in the the end.
BionicDance 2 years ago
To be clear, I don't use the word "logical" colloquially. What I mean is that you identify actual premises and work through them logically to a conclusion.
I understand that alot of people will merely say what your example said and claim it logical due to it being "their opinion/outlook" or "it makes perfect/sense" or whatever.
This is not what I mean with "logical". Given the above definition, would you agree that those work? (sorry for my many questions; I feel we are almost done thogh)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
Yes, well, I think we DO agree in substance, if not terminology and the specifics.
But, ultimately, my point--and, I guess yours too--is that ShwaNerd is simply wrong on this one, that you can't just "Happy Place™" your problems away.
BionicDance 2 years ago
Agreed (to a degree apparentlee :p )
Thanks for the discussion.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
No problem; thanks for keeping it civil and reasoned. :)
BionicDance 2 years ago
Well, first, you've got 1 & 2 essentially wrong; they're only there BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT #3. I can't change my outlook and would view it as lying to myself BECAUSE there is no substance behind such a perspective shift. You might as well be saying to me, "It's okay...god will take care of you!" It's THAT level of bullshit.
#4 is wrong also, because, again, unless there is SUBSTANCE to the change, how is it not just an ignore-it-and-it-will-go-away kind of band-aid solution that does nothing REAL?
BionicDance 2 years ago
Why don't you make a video response rather than going on in the comments section (which few people read) and rating his videos down like fucking troll?
123happyjesus 2 years ago
Multiple reasons: I'm about to take a trip and don't really have the time, for one. Also, plenty of people read the comments section, clearly, so you're just plain fucking wrong. And I rated his video down because I disagree with the content, not because I'm a troll; ordinarily ShwaNerd is on my side on things, but I think he's 100% wrong on this one.
BionicDance 2 years ago
1) I know you are about to take a trip, but that's not really an excuse. If this topic seems to irk you, it may be worth your time.
2) You have to admit that few people click on "Read all comments" to follow an entire comment conversion on ShitTube, where comments float out of context otherwise.
3) Is 1 star really what it deserves?
123happyjesus 2 years ago
1 - I don't HAVE the time, you stupid fuck! I can write a comment in nothing flat, but making a video takes much longer...and I have to pack.
2 - No, I DON'T have to admit that; I don't even think it's true. I do it all the time and I've seen long conversations on YouTube.
3 - Yes. Get over it.
If anybody here is being a troll, it's YOU. No go fuck off or, frankly, I'm gonna block you; this is getting old and I'm NOT going to stop commenting, so fuck off.
BionicDance 2 years ago
You overestimate the attention span of the average tuber. Maybe you don't want to taken seriously?
Trolls don't give legitimate suggestions as I am. I didn't say you had to stop commenting. Just stop being a bitch.
123happyjesus 2 years ago
I actually don't GIVE A SHIT about the average YouTuber; I'm having a perfectly reasonable, reasoned, and rational discussion with
SonofTzeentch right now and we're both getting something out of it, even if nobody else does; you have no right or reason to interfere or to behave like a prick, which is how you STARTED this exchange between us.
And you have no cause to call me a bitch; leaving comments like that is what makes me think you're a troll. Now fuck off.
BionicDance 2 years ago
Fair enough. Make a video when you come back. I want more of that anger like you had in your last vid. >:)
123happyjesus 2 years ago
(I'll assume you read my last reply.)
I think we agree then - but are you saying that it is impossible that someone who was in your situation could be, through an argument with substance, convinced that he was wrong to be so emotionally affected?
Because if you don't, then I don't know what you think an argument with "substance" would be.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(oops, that should be "Because if you DO...")
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
No, I DON'T think someone can be convinced that they were wrong to be so emotionally affected unless they were actually wrong about the facts in the first place; your emotions are your emotions, your reactions are your reactions. I'm not in control of how I react to something, emotionally; I'm only in control of what I DO about those emotions.
An argument with substance would be something which solves the original problem, by either showing the problem wasn't real OR that it has a solution.
BionicDance 2 years ago
Doesn't your first paragraph contradict the second, or are you saying that arguments with substance would still not be enough to convince such a person as we are talking about?
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
No. And I'm not sure i can cover why you're wrong here in only 500 characters.
If I reacted poorly to something, say someone insulted me...but then they say that their words weren't meant how I took them, and that I reacted to a mistake on my part, that's a substantive argument for a perspective change. But if they really meant those words as I took them, my reaction WON'T change; I'd still be pissed, and rightly so.
I'm not sure what you THINK I said, but there is no contradiction here.
BionicDance 2 years ago
"Suicide is not usually contemplated just cuz someone's looking at the world wrong, it's because something's GONE wrong! "
I agree. People are so fucking stupid when they start commenting, that your world view is bad, and that's whole problem. Of course, I don't mean Shwa in this case, because I think he tries to do what he can.
ricardas83 2 years ago
Wow... I've been struggling with depression for years and I thought that other video was great. Even if you didn't go through it, it brought up a good point. It made me think... I don't understand how people did not get it. hah.
WilhelmCassie 2 years ago 3
Sometimes the best course is a crash course. There's no real proper training for babysitting a bad acid trip or hands on keeping someone breathing who took too many pills- short of medical school. Just caring is better than nothing.
bamboo4tameshigiri 2 years ago 2
People can be such idiots. Don't let it get you down, man. Out of all the thousands of people here on YouTube, you're bound to get a handful of morons that are too thick to get existential thought... and/or can't see anything as more than just black or white.
Resurrected06 2 years ago
IT´S CEREAL GUY!!!11
halabalo195 2 years ago
What's the song in the background of this vid?
Crowbarazar 2 years ago
I'm thinkin' two things:
1.) You said you're pissed because you poured honest emotions into a video and got those kinds of responses? I suppose you now know what theists feel like when their videos are -heh- torn up.
2.) The criticism you've received, while some of it was a bit shallow, you should've taken a bit more into consideration. You stated yourself that you do not know what it is like to be depressed - it showed to. Nothing in what you've stated was particularly comforting ..(cont.)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont.)...and neither did it provide a reason to be not depressed or to not end opne's existence. Yes, you stated things which related to beauty (aesthetic), satisfaction of knowledge - in general, things that can be enjoyed. A lack of these, however, is NOT what it means to suffer from depression. Plenty of depressed people have happy moments. That doesn't mean that they still don't feel the various bouts of oppressive gloom and listless powerlessness that they do feel.
(cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont)...
People's reasons for disliking your video were probably more along the lines of you having, despite self-admitted ignorance on the subject, given a pretty bad attempt at it.
To give an example:
It was like hearing a pastor trying to comfort someone that lost his faith through reason by saying that he must trust in god's mysterious planned ways and that if he prays he will re-reveal himself again - which doesn't adress the problem.
And THAT is missing the point entirely.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
I like some of your stuff Shwanerd (and am a fellow Cthulhu Mythos devotee), but everybody can't be perfect all the time. The video wasn't that great, so just take the criticism, consider it and leave it at that.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
You're ignoring the fact that he is using the term "depression" colloquially. He isn't referring to clinical depression, which is an actual disease, and needs to be treated with a combination of therapy, and medication, but rather a general feeling of malaise. I love the name btw.
Valkes 2 years ago
Thanks :D
Yes, if he means it purely colloquially as in "feeling down", then my criticism doesn't apply; however, there is such a thing as non-clinical depression that still isn't merely "feeling down" (first paragraph of wikipedia covers this briefly).
That is what I thought he was referring to. If he wasn't, then you're quite right - my criticism is misplaced - but I do not know if that is indeed how he meant it.
Point taken anyhow.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
@SonofTzeentch Malaise is defined as a "General feeling of unwell" by Wikipedia, which could cover the definition of non-clinical depression as well imho. As such, if looking at the stars brings about a rush of endorphins which help him to recover from this feeling of unease, you can't tell him it doesn't. Glad you're able to see my point, others had a difficult time of it. Too bad about WAR being a giant fail though huh?
Valkes 2 years ago
Right, general feeling of unwell isn't what I was referring to. But I also never said that it is something that doesn't work for him (obviously I don't assume that he is lying), merely that such an aesthetic rush is not something which is objectively shared by others (it's a subjective thing) and more iomportantly, someone suffering from depression may have these rushes but be left untouched depression-wise.
I didn't think WAR was too bad actually. I just lacked time to play it.(cont...)
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
(cont...) As long as I can still play Warhammer 40k I don't really care that much I guess. Wonder if that MMO will turn out interesting. Not that I'll have money to play it for a while, but still.
Play any of the Games Workshop miniature games?
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
@SonofTzeentch I've started collecting 40k, but honestly I'm not overly motivated to get into it, there's only like one meeting a month where I live, and only like 3 people show up.
Valkes 2 years ago
@SonofTzeentch I suppose that's correct, I honestly don't have the clinical experience needed to make a decisive judgment on that, but it makes sense.
I dunno my DoK was op as hell when I played, I dropped like 6 people at a time without breaking a sweat.
Valkes 2 years ago
I think in WAR too many people didn't really get that in the pvp scenarios they had certain roles, where some of the player would do all of the killing, while others did support, be that with debuffs, heals, buffs or whatever else.
...which I always found odd; after all, in WoW raids people seem to accept this as a quite normal happenstance, but when facing human opponents they feel they must be just as 'killy' as everybody else.
Not saying you are like this, just my general view of the players
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
As for 40k, I'm lucky in that we have a big player base over here (somewhere between 20 regulars, another 10 or so semi-regulars and lots of people that simply show up from time to time).
But yeah, if there isn't anybody to play with, then the only point of getting the minis is to paint them up as a hobby. Since I'm not all that into that part of the hobby, I wouldn't be motivated to get more minis either in your situation.
SonofTzeentch 2 years ago
@SonofTzeentch I quite agree, the figures are kind of expensive to just sit on a shelf, and get dusty.
Valkes 2 years ago
@SonofTzeentch My general impression from both games is that in PVP HPS generally outstripped DPS by kind of a lot. Take my DoK for example, I was able to keep ahead of 6 other people, and eventually kill each of them in turn. Paladins in WoW were the same way, generally unkillable. I personally blame raids for this, PvE dmg gets to the point where they have to give healers better heals, and the DPS just can't keep up.
Valkes 2 years ago
Truly, there is no power among mortals that is greater than the power of 4Chan.
I have no idea how anybody could watch your video and not understand your point. My best guess is that they were either not paying attention to the whole video, or did not bother to watch it in its entirety.
ashaman72 2 years ago
I'm with Shwa on this one, I didn't comment on his last video cause I had nothing to add to it, but anything even attempting to be positive about the issue could potentially be helpful, and shouldn't be so easily dismissed. I was once suicidal, even hospitalized in a mental health unit, and you'd be surprised what little things can help.
SakuraElyse 2 years ago
Your previous vid. was apt.
NermalsChannel 2 years ago
Its against my nature to destroy myself so I have a difficult time empathizing with suicidal individuals. My brother Michael was defective and self destructed... It wasn't depression though, he saw that he was harming our Host by existing and chose to sacrifice himself for the benefit of the whole.
PinkProgram 2 years ago
The way you describe suicide disturbs me, PinkProgram. Terms like "self destruct" and "defective" should never be used to refer to humans. It sounds so impersonal for such a deeply personal matter.
SakuraElyse 2 years ago
My brother wasn't human... We aren't really alive so its not really death, simply ceasing to exist. It was a horrific process though. It was the equivalent of a human being conscious while being incinerated until every last cell was ash before winking out into oblivion. My brother willingly went through with this because he was defective. It is against my nature to choose that though...
PinkProgram 2 years ago
people are wierd. I thought your video response to the email was great and had wisdom beyond your age.
amberview30 2 years ago
The short-sightedness is strong with idiots.
MrKrov 2 years ago