OTEC - Oceanic Energy System (Public Evaluation, Zeitgeist Reloaded 2011)

[Beef1188]

Much better than the last part but not exactly ideal! Part 12 sends the wrong message of allowing the market system to fix the problem.

[T0B0KKE]

Just a clarification.

At 3:26 the narrator states that a single 100 MW plant can generate over 800 000 000 killoWatts of electrical energy.First of all it's not killowatts of electrical energy,because energy is measured in killowatt-hour(kWh) not killowatt(kW),second it produces over 800 hundred million kWh if you somehow have the plant gushing out 100 MW for a year.You cant have that because the plant is off during maintenance and the power output is never 100 MW because of intermittent climate

[MaoClausewitz]

@T0B0KKE Thank you for taking time and pointing out those aspects! This helps us a lot in the evaluation process.

[T0B0KKE]

@MaoClausewitz Don't get me wrong. The method is totally viable in a non-market oriented economy, but those limitations do have to be taken in consideration. Specially the intermittent nature of the oceans' temperature. Surely that fluctuates over the course of the year, has the jet stream gets stronger or weaker due to the seasons and other causes. Anyway, very good job with these videos, and keep up the good work.

[MaoClausewitz]

@T0B0KKE No problem, it's our intension to receive feedback and also criticism by the viewers and it is highly welcomed. Thanks again for your support.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE Yes, and yes.

So they may have made a small mistake in the power output, but it's still a neat idea.

Of course, the Gulf stream may not be so stable itself, according to some scientists.

They could be risking everything basing a power system on an effect that itself is at risk...

However, it is non polluting (as long as there are no propane leaks) and a very cheap energy source.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy That's why in power systems we talk about redundancy and utilization factors. If we know the load demand, we won't size the generation to accommodate exactly that load. We always have surplus generation capacity. Wind, solar and geothermal, combined with wave, tide and the method described here can, and most likely will, provide at least 50% of the electricity needs. More than that, I have my doubts that we can be 100% renewable without some kind of energy storage.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE Agreed, but i think the future may need smaller, local generators, suited to the demands of that area. The ideal situation would be that every single machine has it's own built in power source:)

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy Hmm. I'm not sure that a distributed power system can ensure that you have electricity everywhere, efficiently, and with top quality, i.e. no interruptions, no voltage fluctuations, etc...

You need some kind of big central generation, complemented with distributed intermittent sources. You can't have all the power being distributed, as much as we like. We humans like to be able to manipulated things, but we can't change Maxwell's equations and physics laws.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE "You can't have all the power being distributed, as much as we like"

Why not? That's the whole idea!

Think about it, every house or even every APPLIANCE having it's own power source.

No more big, expensive, dangerous, power plants, no pylons, no wires.

90% of the current infrastructure would be redundant overnight.

THAT'S why it isn't happening, or should have happened in the last 100 years.....

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy I said that because you need redundancy and stability in the electrical grid. Our current grid uses alternating current and the frequency is a very sensible parameter. If frequency varies 1% the whole grid can collapse. The only way you can ensure that frequency remains constant is having big generation facilities. (large power generators). Too many intermittent and low power generators have no capability to regulate frequency of a big distributed electrical grid. (cont)

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy (cont) Of course everything I've mentioned before is assuming that we will keep using our current AC power grid. With a DC electrical grid these issues are a goners. But of course the cost that would require to put everything we have working with DC voltage rather than AC... I don't even want to calculate that. Not to mention AC transformers are more efficient than switched-mode power supplies (i.e. DC transformers).

There is a lot of room for improvements here and there tho.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE By the way, inverters are high frequency transformers, vastly more efficient than the old copper/iron types, that can only run at 50 or 60 Hz.

Tesla never used them either;)

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy I know what an Inverter is thank you very much. I'm doing my MSc dissertation on a DC/DC converter, which is also a switched mode power supply. Inverters can't have the efficiencies that normal transformers have (yes those made of copper and iron). Semiconductors still need a lot of developments to become more efficient than copper and iron.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE @T0B0KKE So you're saying that a 20Kg lump of iron at 50Hz is more efficient than a ferrite HF transformer weighing less than1 Kg, running at 20KHz?

Semiconductor technology is up to it, i have transistors that can switch 200A typical and 4700A surge, they can handle 1500V.

In any case,the energy crisis is being engineered, we are so dependent on fossil fuels and they want to keep it that way. I hope they took the Gulf of Mexico oil spill into account (i heard it's still leaking:)

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy I'm positive that in the future, our power system will be in DC. Therefore power electronics will have a major importance. But right now we're using a grid that is more than 100 years old, and that wasn't designed to be upgraded. The original designers wouldn't even dream of a grid with today's dimension, in which i think that sooner or later it too, along we our monetary system, will have to be replaced.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE Edison tried DC, it was a disaster.

I still don't believe it, i can tell you now that what we call 'electricity' is just scratching the surface.

We don't need a grid at all.......

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy Edison didn't had power electronics... AC power was good at the time because stepping down the voltage was simply a matter of using transformers. With power electronics (DC to DC converters) you can step down DC voltage levels. If power semicondutors continue to evolve, in terms of efficiency and power ratings, then AC power will most likely become obsolete.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE For once we agree on something :)

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy And btw. Edison was against AC power at first. Nikola Tesla wanted AC power over DC, because of the simply way to converter voltage levels. Edison even electrocuted animals with AC power, showing how dangerous it was. Just a nasty propaganda move against his biggest competitor (Westinghouse and Nikola Tesla).

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE I'm well aware of Tesla, thanks.

His use of high voltage, high frequency, air spaced coils, etc led the way.

His 12 phase supply was never even considered.

If you see my slideshows, you will know where i'm coming from.

Nevertheless, good luck with your studies.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy Thank you. You too, good luck with TZM. I love to have these engineering debates. Too bad I don't have time to expose my ideas on youtube, YET.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE Thank you as well, i did not think it possible to have a civilized debate on YooToob :)

We can't agree on everything, but we have some common ground i think. You are right that we need to drastically change our use of energy, and become more efficient, we are too wasteful!.

There are so many schemes comng out now, a lot of them are impractical, but a few of them are real gems.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy I was thinking today about a world without money and realized we can't do that with our current energy system, unless we enforced some kind of restriction on consumption. Imagine if we were to abolish money tomorrow, the energy consumption would skyrocket, because well... it's free. This transition won't happen overnight I'm afraid. First people need to understand why our current system is unsustainable, then adapt their consciousness to live with harmony with nature, then ok...

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE Absolutely! People don't really appreciate how much energy they use. I think if they had to pedal a bike with a dynamo on it, the average human could just about generate the 100 watts or so to power a small T.V. (for a few minutes), so they can forget about using the microwave.... There will have to be a transitional period to the free energy system.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy My legs today are really living proof of how hard is to generate those 100 Watts. :P

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE So we have some common ground:)

The Zeitgeist people are doing their best, there are so mny ideas out there, some are workable, others arent.

At least this info is getting out, there are enough specialists & whizzkids out there who will know how to implement the idea. They just need the idea........

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE Besides, what's this 1% nonsense?

All power plant generators (& some inverters) are phase-locked, as i'm sure you are aware.

Stand-alone generators only need that kind of accuracy for T.V. sync, otherwise it's not a problem.

I'm sure yo're aware also, that most inverters can be programed in 0.1 Hz steps, for 50 Hz, thats 0.5 %

Accurate enough?

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy I think you need to go read about why Britain will face stability problems with too much wind power using inverters and due to the lack of many interconnections that stabilize the grid frequency. The only big interconnections they have is in high voltage DC, which doesn't count to maintain the grid stable. Inverters may be accurate, but are expensive. Only large generators spinning at the synchronous speed, can maintain the network frequency stable.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE So what is wrong with AC power transmission?

DC over short distances work great, we use them here all the time...

I refuse to debate further on this, the grid system is obsolete.

The current windmill & inverter designs can be vastly improved.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy No. AC in short distances is better than DC, just because AC in long distance is completely rubbish. Did you know that a transmission line at 50 Hz is a quarter wavelength antenna if it is 3000 km long? DC is better for long distance transmissions. A good example is the Cahora Bassa Dam in Mozambique. The 1000+ km power lines that connect it to South Africa operate at +/-533 kV(DC). If it were built with AC, a big portion of the energy would be radiated to space, like an antenna.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy I also invite you to go check the Germany blackout that occurred in November 4th, 2006. Just a few seconds after the blackout, all the wind power turbines were immediately disconnected from the grid, trying to avoid further frequency drops. Eventually a major blackout occurred, but at least the wind turbines were not damaged. If this event happens again, I'm sure that solar and wind (using power electronics) will hop off the grip.

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE See my point?

A grid system is outdated & unworkable, given the current planned economic destabilization.

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy Side note: Ultimately we will have to change consumption paradigm. Right now we adapt generation to consumption, because we have loads of stored energy in form of fossil fuels (coal, natural gas), water in a dam and uranium. In the future, when these sources are mostly depleted or reached peak production, we will have to accommodate our consumption to the available generation... That's = to living in an energy scarcity scenario. What happens to the food in our fridges in that scenario?

[stawmy]

@T0B0KKE What you have to realize is that the whole enerhy system is a scam.

Even traditional sources like wind, wave, sun are enough, but the infrastructure isn't there.

Energy is all around us, vast quantities of it waiting to be tapped.

This is nothing new, it's been actively supressed for 150 years.

The oil based economy will have to go. We reached 'peak oil' sometime ago, so now it's just going to be a downward spiral. You want super cheap, non polluting, clean fuel technology? Water

[stawmy]

@stawmy Sorry, no edit button!!!

[T0B0KKE]

@stawmy Peak oil doesn't exist. What exists is the bumpy plateau, or the so called "production limit", which we haven't reached yet. American oil did peaked in the 70's, but there is still loads of reserves in Middle East, Canada and Venezuela. Capping the oil production will soon be a reality, but to maintain the status quo they will do everything in their power to keep burning fossil fuels. Natural gas will come after oil. Want to bet?