1 Samuel 13:13 - Proof Positive of Open Theism -- Jacques More

[no1djkamilo]

..." And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;

he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Gen 3:15)

"Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions"." (Gen 15:13,14) , etc...

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo,

Prophecy is God declaring plans He has put in place or permitted to happen

Only what He declares is in view in prophecy and that is what He knows from the beginning

God did not declare Saul would have his kingdom established forever BEFORE he rebelled. So God was free to make a new plan

God did declare later that David's kingdom would continue. So it does in Jesus, his descendant.

PLS reply to my earlier question

Would God have established Saul's kingdom over Israel forever?

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy I did answer your question. I said "He could've done whatever he wanted, I don't know". Just so that we're not talking past each other cane you define what you think open theism means?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo,

With all due respect that is not an answer, but a cop out for it neither says yes or no.

Decide and tell me please.

It may be that you are honest and sincere - I don't know - and really do not know.

If that is true, then my apology. I hope this be so for then you can indeed learn.

Open theism is the view that God is free to make new decisions and alter the future to fit within His overall plans that he has predetermined. So that He does not know all in advance all the time...

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy I'm being honest. I cannot say or go beyond what God has revealed about Himself in what He would or wouldn't have done. To do so, I believe, is to go into the secret things of the Lord, I will not go there.

So why can't God know all things (the end from the beginning) if He makes new decisions as He goes along (in your view) and seems to be in control of the affairs of things heavenly?

Why can't both be true (His freedom and sovereignty)?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo,

Remember that He is the One that shares the secret things. Ps32:8; Jas1:5

But these never contradict the Word.

If by the end from the beginning you are referring to the foundation of the world as 'the beginning' then it is impossible if the decision to change a plan was made after that foundation.

This does not alter his sovereignty if you understand that like to a king having sovereignty since he too is not responsible nor does he will the actions of all those in His realm.

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy Yes but when He shares the secret things they are now revealed (Eph 3:9-10)

"it is impossible if the decision to change a plan was made after that foundation." God's main plan from the foundation of the world was the redemption of sinners by Jesus' cross (1 Pet 1:18-20) your logic and reason here contradict the clear reading of God's word.

And yes God is not responsible or will all the actions of all those in His realm, but works in, with and under them for good (Rom 8:28)

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy Where does God's word say that "ONLY what He declares in view of prophecy is what he knows from the beginning"?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo.

I think you misread me

If God knows all that is knowable, then He knows much more than the things He declares.

NO, I was referring to things future. Only what is declared is what is fixed in knowledge of the future. And yet some things He declares alter - God changes His mind (in their respect; Ne never changes His mind in moral character issues)

King Hezekiah was told by God that he would die of a sickness, then after Heze prayed, God said, OK I'll give you another 15 years.

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy Where do you get this notion that there are things not knowable but God?

[no1djkamilo]

@no1djkamilo i meant to say "not knowable by God"?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo, From the bible When HE says NOW this will not happen it means that. It would have earlier; it will not now A new plan is in play And before it was in play it was not a plan in existence and therefore not known as what would be. 1 Sam.13:13-14 When He says "NOW I know" I believe it Gen.22:12 When He is explicit about doing something in order to learn something: “God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart” 2 Chronicles 32:31 et al

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy One thing you ignore is that the word 'know' in Hebrew has a larger and more expansive meaning than the English translation. By taking these verses out of their immediate context and larger redemptive context you can "eisegete" your Open Theism into God's Word just like the mormons do when the claim that the Father has a human body according to their verses out of context.

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy One thing you ignore is that the word 'know' in Hebrew has a larger and more expansive meaning than the English translation. By taking these verses out of their immediate context and larger redemptive context you can "eisegete" your Open Theism into God's Word just like the mormons do when the claim that the Father has a human body according to their verses out of context.

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy One thing you ignore is that the word 'know' in Hebrew has a larger and more expansive meaning than the English translation. By taking these verses out of their immediate context and larger redemptive context you can "eisegete" your Open Theism into God's Word just like the mormons do when the claim that the Father has a human body according to their verses out of context.

[WCOFTheology]

@fractalfires Jesus condemned both the Pharisees & the Sadducees! We are not to use the term fate in reference to God, the term is providence!

[no1djkamilo]

Neither unconditional predistination, nor open theism are properly biblical. Both ignore some passages to make their point.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo,

To make complete sense you need to share the passages you think contradict open theism.

I, of course agree in regards to unconditional predestination, but a perusal of my posted videos gives ample demonstration of that, so that is a complete sensible rebuttal.

And, of course, you need also to answer the question here:

Would God have established Saul's kingdom over Israel forever?

Really?

[no1djkamilo]

@gracetruthguy God could have done whatever He wanted. Speculation into the hidden will of God has never done Christians any good. For this reason he says "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever".

As far as clear passages that contradict open theism some of them are:

"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." Is 46:10...

[gracetruthguy]

Hi no1djkamilo,

It appears U do not understand what an open theist believes

If God knows all that is knowable, then it follows that with that He can make plans and, in being in overall authority, He is also able to ensure that those plans come to pass

The context of Is 46:10

"Calling . . . The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.

Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it." V.11

Only 1 end is in view + it occurs Bcos God does it.

[WCOFTheology]

@no1djkamilo How do you have a conditional predestination?

[no1djkamilo]

@WCOFTheology What does the bible say about predestination?

[ChristianityForReal]

@fractalfires

You mean to say your interpretation is right and the view of foreknowledge held by the Old Testaments saints and early church fathers is wrong. I smell a cult. You are nothing but a brainwashing mind controlling freak who pretends to be one of Christ's servant. My Jesus knows everything unlike your christ who is oblivious to who is children(2 Timothy 2:19) Go figure!!!

[WCOFTheology]

@fractalfires "I like your material" You would!

[ChristianityForReal]

@fractalfires

the Church Fathers reasoned that, in the Bible, "to know" can sometimes mean "to reveal". For example, Augustine of Hippo argued that whe Deuteronomy 13:3 said "the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart", "to know" here meant "to reveal".[

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Doug,

But, in 17:5 the Lord pinpoints a wicked man and contrasts it to a good man in 17:7 B4

btw Check out my web site as I'm about to make available the core research that enables the removal of the word "elect" from the bible. I've been converting my latest book into an eBook and decided to make several chapters fully visible. So within a few days that evidence will be online as well as for the removal of "His" from Romans 8:28... The update will be mentioned in the "New" section.

[lieberR1]

God is Almighty:

Psalm 139:4 "For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, you know it altogether."

Proverbs 19:21 "There are many plans in a man's heart, nevertheless the LORD's counsel that will stand"

Proverbs 20:24 "A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way."

God does not learn

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change."

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Proof positive refuting open theism.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi lieberR1,

If it's on your tongue of course God knows it, He can see the brain waves that preceded it!

Prov.19:23 is about different plans than man's.

"From Jehovah [are] the steps of a man, And man -- how understandeth he his way?" Prov 20:24 Young

Is not about being all knowing

God does not change in His character.

Those passages have nothing to do with God prevented from making new decisions, making new thoughts and creating new things.

"Now I know" is explicit. Gen. 22:12

[lieberR1]

@gracetruthguy

I hope this helps you:

1 Chronicles 28:9: "The LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts"

you are plainly contradicting this verse, God knew that Abraham feared God before he lifted up the knife. Also, Genesis 22:5 coupled with Paul's understanding in Hebrews 11:17-20 contradicts your view. God said, "Now I know" for Abraham's sake. the same took place when God said, "Where are you?" in the garden. He said it in a way that they could understand.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi lieberR1,

I read 1 Chronicles 28:9 to mean that the Lord understands all the intent of the thoughts BECAUSE He has searched the hearts. This is shown us by the parallel passage in Jeremiah 17:10

"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."

The fact that Abraham believed is not the issue - God indeed tested Him at a point of being ready to be tested - it was not so to GOD until tested...

[lieberR1]

@gracetruthguy

Lamentations 3:37-38: "Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, when the Lord has not commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the MOST HIGH that woe and well being proceed?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi lieberR1,

Talk about OUT OF CONTEXT:

Lam.3 "He does not afflict willingly" V.33

"Or subvert a man in his cause— The Lord does not approve." V.36

"According to the work of their hands." V.64

God does not plan all things directly, but is free to respond and indirectly makes use of evil beings and wicked persons to effect His purposes of judgment.

"Do not be deceived . . . Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above" James 1:16-17

[lieberR1]

@gracetruthguy

Isaiah 46 9-12 "Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING and from ancient times things that are not yet done. Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.' Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it; I will also do it.

[lieberR1]

@lieberR1

verse 12: Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, who are far from righteousness.

Why are you so fascinated with making sure that God doesn't get too much glory? Why be so intend on limiting His power, knowledge, and sovereignty?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi lieberR1,

Because the Word of God is sharp it is needful to read accurately.

There is a world of difference between:

God planning something, DECLARING it and making it happen

COMPARED TO

God planning something, not declaring it and awaiting its fulfilment with man's co-operation

We only know about God's plan for Saul's kingdom to be established forever until AFTER it proved unfeasible.

P.S. where is your reply to my question on God having NO plans as per Jeremiah 19:5?

[lieberR1]

@gracetruthguy

My response is under the 1 John 5:1 video.

[700bees]

How do you reconcile that with Genesis 49:10? Saul was a Benjamite.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi 700bees,

“The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, And a lawgiver from between his feet, Till his Seed come; And his [is] the obedience of peoples.” Genesis 49:10 Young

There will always be a ruler and judge maker in Judah until “his Seed come”

Since there were no kings in Israel until Samuel, and that is at least a 480 year gap from the time of the pronouncements, a simple reading is that within Judah there will always be rulers and lawgivers until the One prophesied comes.

[JulianOfViolence]

Numbers 23:19

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi JulianOfViolence,

That is my point.

Where God does not promise, He is free to make new decisions which are different from what He intended before.

This is what happened with Saul, God planned to make his family rule forever - since He says He "would have established" Saul's "kingdom over Israel forever" - but, on the public rebellion of Saul he declares that his dinasty would not continue.

Just look at Jonathan, don't you think he would have made a good king?

[Blogrich55]

@gracetruthguy says God "is free to make new decisions which are different from what He intended before."

Yet the passage quoted is Numbers 23:19 which says God is "not a human being, that he should change his mind." So WHY do you gloss over the obvious??

OBVIOUSLY, If God CHANGES His mind He is NOT immutable. Any first year Bible student know that immutability is one of God's attributes.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Rich,

The context involves what God had explicitly declared as his intentions and will in regards to Israel.

He does not change His mind in these things or He would not be trustworthy.

God's character and being is immutable, but His mind and will changes on anything He likes which He has not promised or declared beforehand.

To Calvin God has decided and decreed everything in advance.

What do you think of God stating the opposite in Jeremiah 19:5?

[JulianOfViolence]

So if God doesn't know the future, explain a few things to me. 1) How did Jesus know that Peter was going to deny him three times, before it happened. 2) How did Jesus know that Judas was going to betray Him. 3) How did God know you before you were born according to Jeremiah 1:5, and it even goes on further to say He set you apart. Explain how God already knows what we want before we even ask according to Jesus himself.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi JulianOfViolence,

Who said God doesn't know the future?

God knows more of the future than all other beings put together.

But, the bible tells us that God is free to make new decisions. And when He has not said in advance what He intends - i.e. committed Himself publicly to something ahead of it - then you discover He sometimes changes those plans He had (but had not shared before).

The future is open only on a limited range of things.

[eleutheroo1]

Open theism is a teaching that makes man god, and makes God submit to the whims of man.

You can go on worshiping a small god if you desire.

All error in theology stem from these two systems of thought:

*Making God smaller than He is.

*Making man greater than he is.

I see you have good company with the likes of Kerrigan Skelly and Jesse Morrell.

It has been a while since your last video. Everything OK?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi eleutheroo1,

If open theism says God is free to make new decisions and does so and this is what the bible shows us, then it outlines God as he is.

Any other God - so called - then, is not the biblical God.

Indeed Augustine who began 'Calvinism' (see the vid similarly titled) who read and liked Plato points to his source for believing in a God different than the bible.

Thank U for your final question. I am fine, but busy. Not least writing my new book. I hope to do a new vid soon.

[eleutheroo1]

@gracetruthguy

Even though I sharply disagree with almost everything you believe, I enjoy chatting with you. You're an upstanding gentleman.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi eleutheroo1,

A good day to you too!

:0) 

[AgApE010]

This doesn't do anything for Open Theism. Samuel simply says that if Saul had kept the commandments, God would have established his kingdom forever. That doesn't mean that God was ignorant of what Saul would do and how he would be unruly and disobedient.

-

"God has all ends in view"

-

That's clear eisegesis.

-

Furthermore, Open Theism is easily refuted by the fact that God prophecies multiple times in Scripture. Keep trying to dethrone God; you will lose.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi "Slave of Christ",

Prophecy is what God declares and makes come about by a combination of raising people up to do things and determining the limits of other factors.

God did not declare beforehand that Saul's dynasty would be over Israel forever, just that it was His intent.

1 Sam.13:13 says God had no plans for David to be king until Saul rebelled as He did.

So it is false to say God had all ends in view. I do not say that nor does the Scripture.

See also 2 Chronicles 32:31!

[AgApE010]

@gracetruthguy

-

"Prophecy is what God declares and makes come about by a combination of raising people...determining...factors­"

-

So prophecy, like God declaring that Christ would be born in Bethlehem, according to you is not because God knows the future but because He controls events to make sure it happens. That means that God is in control of people's actions which means that He acts sovereignly in our affairs which means that Calvinism is correct in that claim. Lose-lose situation for you.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi AgApE010,

Stick to the full text:

"raising people up to do things" involves calling them and working with them as willing servants. Nothing forced - sometimes discipline is required, but always when a realtionship is already in play - but never without co-operation.

And why?

Because God has self-control as per Galatians 5:22-23

So Calvinism is false and is counter to the persistent teaching of synergism existing before Augustine's new theology which Calvin retold.

[AgApE010]

@gracetruthguy

-

You said that God raising people to bring about what He prophecies is dependent upon them being "willing servants" and is "never without cooperation." So then your god was just gambling then,wasn't he? He said something would happen without foreknowing his creatures' actions and he can't act sovereignly in his creatures' affairs in order to make sure what he says comes about, so he just happened to get very lucky that everything worked out! Do you REALLY believe that's Biblical?

[gracetruthguy]

Hi AgApE010,

Do you have a problem with reading?

Do you not know what the word 'discipline' means?

Look at Jonah. God was already in a servant and Lord relationship with him so he could be disciplined to do His will. And he did.

But, is it not much better to walk humbly with your God?

But, if one refuses and rebels publicly - without the Lord declaring in advance they are "the one" to do it "forever" - then God is perfectly entitled to de-throne that person and use someone else!

[AgApE010]

@gracetruthguy

-

I saw you said "disciplined." What's your point? Your argument was that God depended on the cooperation of His servants in order to bring about what He prophecies. Add that to your belief that God doesn't know the future and what you have is a god who simply was lucky that things that he would say would happen happened.

-

"Look at Jonah"

-

That's begging the question. You assume that your view is correct and apply it to Jonah's life. I can easily make the same claim for my side.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi AgApE010,

The point is that the righteous are dealt with differently than the wicked.

It is about cooperation and a greater range of choices for the righteous than the wicked who are more limited, except for particular tasks God wants His servants to do. For then refusal to do the task on the part of God's servant brings discipline into play. That's the point.

It is not waiting to see what happens, but actively being involved to make things happen when His plans are in play.

[AgApE010]

@gracetruthguy

-

"actively involved to make things happen"

-

You don't believe that. For if God is actively involved to MAKE things happen,that means that man's will is subordinate to God's workings. But you believe that God does not control man's will. You are attempting to avoid the result of your view, which is that the things prophesied to happen came true only by chance since your god does not know the future and does not have control over man's will. That is not the God of the Bible.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi AgApE010,

If you're not reading me that's your problem.

I am clear that God works with us and limits choices. But that there are choices is what is denied by you.

So it is not by chance but by design and co-operation.

The Calvinist god - the Plato god which Augustine brought in - says there is no chance or choosing at all - it is all god.

The bible says there is no chance too, but it is not all God.

God limits evil, but has no direct planning and production of it.

[stitty]

You're pointing to two ridiculous extremes. Calvinism is of course a heresy but that doesn't negate the fact that God has full knowledge of all future events. Saul had the option of following commandments of the Lord but God knew He would not. God did not entice nor force Saul to abandon the Throne. God justly offers us all a path; some will follow the plan God has for them and some will not. God has a plan for failures and successes and He knows the outcome of each.

God Bless

[gracetruthguy]

Hi stitty,

So, you say that God would NOT have established Saul's kingdom over Israel forever.

What does the Scripture say?