3. Listen to the Scientists:Kyoto Protocol & the U.S.

[GuyThreepwoody]

Which scientists should we listen to? the tens of thousands of independent scientists who think it's all scientifically illiterate nonsense?

Or the handful of disgraced political institutions who get a free vacation every year out of scaring the gullible?

better yet, recognize that the whole point of science is not having to take anyone's word for it. The more people educate themselves, the more skeptical they have become, don't let politicians tell you you're not smart enough, you are!

[Shofoxy]

if making fires with wood and coal is too C02 intensive, can I burn Orangutans instead?

[GuyThreepwoody]

@Shofoxy Sure, as long as you pay enough tax on it!

[davetileguy]

I believe th"Kyoto treaty" was signed or agreed upon in secret,the net result of our downed economy is less greenhouse gasses,no matter what the Obama admin. says no new jobs are comming,the way unemployment is measured has been changed,8 % unemployment is the new norm,gas and commodities are up,consumption is down,there is no way in hell the left wants to see the housing,logging,energy industries recover,pay no attention to what they say just what is happening.

[elgato105]

Going "Green" is too costly right now. We need more R&D to make it cost effective. Oil and coal are cheap. Cheap energy builds wealth. With that wealth we make or find a new source of energy.Ethanol costs more and produces less energy. That creates poverty. Cant do R&D when we are poor.

[x11115]

too much technology too fast - I'm afraid this is what happened to many civilizations that have existed on earth - even as recent as Germany. I think earth's history is much longer than what is estimated. Ancient history talks about people on flying carpets (maybe they flew) and the way thepyramids were built then can not be explained today. Perhaps in the past man destoryed himself many times do to rapid technology explosions such as Atlantis. Just my theory.

[bigpapa1648]

This is interesting. About 1:40 in he states that developing countries put out a small fraction of the carbon that "we" are. Now by we I would imagine he is talking about the United States. If he is then he mistaken. China is considered an Non-Annex 1 country under the Kyoto protocol and its putting out 11% of the emissions in the world. At the UNFCCC website it states that the US is putting out 4.3%. Almost triple our emissions doesn't sound like "a small fraction of the carbon that we are".

[SCUBONZIES]

ya this mega tsunami how could that small island affect the east coast get a life

[Mrcj1512]

if they acept the kyoto than the econemy would be badly efected. yes they have alot of money but that was just j.bushes choic. now u guys have got obama now i think he is going to do a seprate kyoto

[acedagaiin]

The nwo have blown up a serious amount of nukes not that long ago surely this a logical reason for co2 depletion They #@!$ up the oceans as well

[dadecountyhustler305]

@acedagaiin I think thats a lot more believable then man-made co2 emissions

[RationalEmotive]

The science is inconclusive at best! How about trusting something we know to be true: The Bible.

The Book of Relevations is very clear on how the world is going to end.

[whatmohawkponydo]

The uk is shooting for cutting down 20% but they're only going to get 14% but the us is even less, and china did not sign the protocol but they are almost the biggest contributers

[rubeecheer]

Some of you commenters are pretty stupid. How can a country that claims to be so great, also be so stupid. This is the only way to get the American idiots to actually think about ghg.... Nobody has done it yet. Whoever dissagrees, I would suggest you come up with a better solution!

[StrangeFlavoredRey]

could somebody explain to me what exactly the kyoto protocol is, or at least what you think it is

[libatako]

it all comes down to reduction of greenhouse gasses....all in all, how it would been done would have ...well put some countries in a position they wouldnt like... put it this way....the us would be put in equal or less standing with some 3rd world country...thats a very simplistic way of putting it....but when viewed that way......mmmm yea.

[EvilJirachi]

December 31, 2012 - The Kyoto Protocol will expire.

[AleifrLeifrson]

The US population is growing so fast they can't shut down their powerplants... You're not supposed to just shut them down! Use solar power, windmills, whatever. I don't get it. It's not that complicated, we HAVE to do whatever we can to cut the emissions.

[carsiotto]

yeah you say that now, wait till your living in a cave and eating corn out of your dads shit.

[matt75hooper]

You are right---YOU DONT GET IT. The entire population of planet earth can fit in Rhode Island. Idiot. Global warming is a scam. A shakedown. Earth----5 billion years old, struck by over a million asteroids, will die because of my Ford, which came from earth itself. Just too funny......

Good grief.

[wzxd8rm]

The Earth wouldn't die, but many species already died. Crocodiles will probably survive again.

Would Homo Scumiens ???

[apollo1268]

This is nothing but pure crap.

If this guy were to speak the real truth about the Kyoto Treaty, he would lose his,well paid, position as chief scientist at the Climate Change Institute.

It's disgusting to watch a person with such admirable credentials in science to intentionally ignore the facts surrounding the issue of the global warming lie/Kyoto treaty for personal gain.

This man is nothing but a piece of dog shit!

[thunderflash82]

For all the people that believe C02 is bad...hold your breathe b/c guess what, every time you exhale guess what comes out? Surprise, it's that nasty C02 you're so worried about.

[Baal1985]

The problem is not we have CO2 in our atmospher, without CO2 the Earth would be like Mars. CO2 is essential for our surviving. The problem is when we start producing too much CO2, so the greenhouse effect starts destroying our biological system, making the pols smelting e.g.. So us breating out CO2 is good, making a pollutive industry is neither good for our nature, good for us nor good for our kids. Who doesnt want a more clean air to breath?? That's what Kyoto is all about preserving the earth

[thunderflash82]

When you have more C02 the biological system thrives. 95-97% of the GHG in the atmosphere is made up of clouds and water molecules. Also, global warming tends to predate C02 by centuries. You don't have to buy a boat b/c the world's not gonna end.

I'd rather spend money on curbing toxic gases and hazardous waste. It has more of an immediate effect and it benefits the host country, something Kyoto doesn't really do.

[SauceMystery]

Peer-reviewed :

showing computer climate model outputs not matching observation, in other words, what the computer models predict will happen isn't happening :

Complete PDF available online, read free. From abstract :

"These conclusions contrast strongly with those of recent publications... Copyright 2007 Royal Meteorological Society.... Received 31 May 2007; Accepted 11 October 2007"

search :

International Journal of Climatology of the Royal Meteorological Society [DOI: 10.1002/joc.1651]

[APFighting]

okay, you idiot. it's part of the natural balance of things. we breathe it out, plants breathe it in. the dangerous part happens when co2 doesn't allow heat to radiate back out into space, the ice caps melt, and your ass dies in a hurricaine due to the changing of weather patterns.

[thunderflash82]

I live in Canada. We don't get hurricanes and if the Arctic melts, who cares. It's better for our country anyways.

[nadialu]

Newsflash buddy! YOU live in a globalized system... you're right, your ass isn't gonna die in a hurricaine and actually if the world keeps warming Canada will be the best soil in the world for agriculture... BUT, if you think that the loss of RESOURCES and HUMAN BEINGS all around the world isn't gonna affect you (not emotionally of course, cause you don't seem to have feelings) well SURPRISE it IS gonna affect you badly in so many ways you can't imagine... and if you don't care, well I pity you.

[mana2432]

CO2 is what's keeping this earth from going into an ice age again... the main problem is the cooling of the planet, because we had about 10k x of CO2 during the jurassic period. P.S. we only cause 3 percent of the CO2, the rest is from forrest fires, volcanoes, dying plants, and cows farting... so if you really want to "help" the environment, I think you should really start eating steak.

[EatMyPonytail]

@mana2432 18% carbon emissions come from your steak and the like. The only reason those cows exist to fart in the first place is because they're bred to be eaten and for their milk.

[davetileguy]

@EatMyPonytail shut the hell up with your "cow emission" bullshit.If you love plants soooo much you would welcome C02,at NO TIME in earths history has ANYTHING stayed static!! ,water levels,Co2,forest ,tempurature,animal life,wheather,tectonics etc, your circumstantial evidence of "we'r here so it must be us" is pathetic and un scientific.

[Jessepwns]

the funny thing is 170 nations have signed the kyoto protocol now,

but about 98% of those countries are developing or underdeveloped (including china and india).

In other words, Kyoto says "US needs to limit their economy for the world"

garbage

[pyromaniacjon]

And according to Mitt Romney, China has already passed us in greenhouse emissions.

The original date for passing us was 2020. It was set back to 2009, now they've passed us.

So the "worst" isn't the USA.

Globalized government, anyone? 60% of the signed countries agree to something and it becomes international law. The SCARIEST part of all of this is I believe (don't know for certain) all the remaining candidates selected by the delegates are pro-kyoto.

[moomar1]

Man made CO2 doesnt cause global warming ffs

God people are dumb

[giansideros]

I supported the war in Iraq and Afghanistan but the threat from global warming FAR outweighs any danger from terrorism.

[filmweb13]

Don't thank the U.S., thank Louisiana for the damage. Louisiana had the opportunity to strengthen New Orleans, and were even told to by the U.S. Government, but they said nothing would ever happen to them. Well now look at what happened. Louisiana should have listened!

[tpiom]

Am I only the one who hates Bush?!

What US is saying right now that this protocol is pressing their economy to much, well.. maybe if they would shut down all the wars around in the world and try to save the earth instead I'm sure they would accomplish something. AMERICANS, EVERY AMERICAN - listen this is a warning siren!! You can't vote for people who say: "oh.. just get to war instead"

like Bush.. Even his father became president.

You must step forward and take action against your government.

[blaksle51]

In 1997 under Clinton/Gore, the Senate voted on a resolution not to sign the Kyoto protocol and was passed 95-0. When was the last time both Democrats and Republicans voted unanimously on anything. It was and still remains a very bad deal for America. No President has brought the ratification of the Kyoto protocol to the congress. I know you hate Bush but not ratifying the Kyoto protocol started under Clinton.

[mana2432]

Because we would loose trillions of dollars in vain... why not waste less money and really make a change with the Copenhagen Consensus?

[mrfluglechug]

the reason bush isn't getting involved is because he is a believer in the rapture, thinking armegedon is coming soon, therefore he thinks it doesn't matter how many people die in iraq etc, or global warming doesn't matter, because the world is coming to an end very soon, or atleast that is why i think he's staying out of the kyoto protocol and in with the war.

[principalsuspeito]

"Money, its a crime.

Share it fairly but dont take a slice of my pie.

Money, so they say

Is the root of all evil today"

[Sweetu213]

all the americans will die with the oil they've stolen from muslim countries ;)

[Schlunky]

TheNextturn

THe U.S.

We are all spoiled compared to other countries. Just like we are the fattest country in the world.

[dedringer]

So ... because Kyoto was/is such a great deal, my question is this: how many countries are successfully meeting their goals, or are projecting to meet them, for lowering emissions?

[TheNextTurn]

GHGs: China = USA

Pop: China x5 = USA

Which nation over consumes the most?

[aphterphoto]

This guy is nuts. First of all, how many windmills does he have in HIS yard. What is the size of his carbon footprint? Politics takes many forms. The Kyoto treaty is a tool to slow capitalism and successful capitalist economies in order to allow "developing countries" to continue to grow in wealth.

[Symbrio]

you are total idiot. isn't the goal of mankind to be equal. so you are saying that there always have to be differences, that you have to be always on top??? You americans disgust me!

[Antiworld23]

I don't care if we disqust you or not. Yes we do always have to be on top.

[aphterphoto]

If "developing countries" don't need to lower their carbon footprint, than your argument that you care about the environment is shot down. You only care about lowering the carbon footprint of successful capitalist economies. So, get some windmills and shut the fuck up.

[communitywork]

The Kyoto Protocol is a symbolically important expression of governments' concern about climate change. But as an instrument for achieving emissions reductions, it has failed. Kyoto was constructed by quickly borrowing from past treaty regimes dealing with stratospheric ozone depletion, acid rain from sulphur emissions and nuclear weapons.

[arubberball]

WOW!Let me simplify this for you just a little bit! Don't be fooled,it's all about the money, yeah it's that simple, sucks,you think! Sorry I had to break it to you! Have you ever put much though on who is financing this research? And what they have to gain by it.Green is code for CASH!

[blackkat888]

population of china is like 5 times the population of US and they r still the second largest emmiters.....what makes the US think that average US citizen deserves 5 times more energy than average chinese?

[Antiworld23]

We have the fucking right! Where the hell do Euro-facists and Enviro-Nazis get off telling me what I can and can't buy, and how much I can and can't buy. Kyoto is socialists horse shit any one thinking of ratifing it in America should be tried for treason.

[danmarino1970]

The reason why this protocol can't touch countries like China and India is because the mass produce everything cheap FOR THE WORLD... not because they use the energy they have to survive... or you want to pay $89.00 for a pair of flip flops (made in the US). Implement and amend the protocol so that the developing countries like China, India also use alternative means of power. Wind,Hydro,solar... c'mon wake up. oil companies-politicians suck the big monkey

[utkonos313]

Sign the paper, wave it above ur head and proclaim Greenpeace in Our Time. Or maybe signing a piece of paper won't solve global warming. Maybe real and practical measures such as those in California are the anwser.

[jfeucht82]

If we adopted the Kyoto protocol, you can kiss the last remaining industrial jobs goodbye, and watch them go straight to China, the worst polluting country in the world!

[shannyncourtenay]

Maybe George Bush thinks god is going to give us another planet? If evolution was taught in schools and recognized as fact, maybe we would all appreciate and be humbled by the earth, by the unbelievable improbability of this earth existing as it is now, and maybe individuals around the world will be awed by this and want to protect it for themselves, for their children, and for EVERYTHING ELSE that lives and breathes and for millions of years has adapted to the earths environment.

[arubberball]

Maybe you can help me out? Earth had atlases 4 or 5 ice ages, now this where it gets a little fuzz for me. Man wasn't there to effect the climate, so what caused it? Who actually knows what the ideal temperature should be? Back in the 70's we where heading into a new ice age...I'm still waiting!

[smegthissite]

Oh they are only real scientists if they are LEFT leaning elitists. Look into Bilderberg 07 see who is behind this nonsense. infowars com

[SpeakUpNow]

Great to see REAL scientists discussing this topic, without the spin of far right obscuring the issue.

[domndiane]

The true opinion of the IPCC scientists is to be found in Chapter 1 of Climate Change 2001, page 97:The fact that the global mean temperature has increased since the late 19th century and that other trends have been observed does not necessarily mean that an anthropogenic effect on the climate has been identified. Climate has always varied on all time-scales, so the observed change may be natural." Dr. Vincent Gray - Expert Reviewer & IPCC Lead Author

[midaztouch]

It just accurred to me...should we really "listen to the scientists" regarding policy?

[midaztouch]

occurred, that is.

[penguinx42]

Debatable. But we *should* "listen to the scientists" regarding *science*. The problem is, we're not even doing that.

[jfeucht82]

Good question. That question ought to be asked much more often. If you really want scientists and "experts" to have so much influence on the government, they will have a sort of elitest non-democratic control. I think that is something that ought to be avoided.

[BaxtersBuddy]

Yes that is something to be avoided, but we should at least hear the advice that scienctist can offer when it comes to scientific issues like global warming.

[forkeat]

CO2 emission sources: Oceans-------59.5% Decaying vegitaion----17.9% Plant and animal respiration--17.9% Human made----4.7% (factories, cars, fireplaces, breathing, etc.) The human input of CO2 into the earth is insignificant compared to natural sources, i.e. 4.7% to 95.3%. Quit worrying about global warming.

[penguinx42]

You have a source for that?

[forkeat]

The Oregon Petition — signed by 18,000 scientists world-wide states:

"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate."

[john3427]

, though of course the value of the US$ has dropped by 3/4 during the last 60 years...

Anyway, this is why the trade deficit of China is actually to the advantage of US consumers (it means that they live beyond their means). I hope this explains your question. Sorry for the delay, but as I said in the other thread my message wasn't posted.

[john3427]

"And how do you figure that China's foreign exchange reserve surplus helps the US population?" It's very simple: China produces cheap products, sell them to the US, and then lends the US money to buy these products. So, at the end of the day, who is better off? Don't forget that the foreign debt of the US is issued in US$, so the US can simply print more US$ to repay that debt. Basically the US has been living beyond its means for the last 60 years

[jutiapa14]

Dismantled? I'm not sure what news you are listening to. There is no question behind the science that human action in causing global warming. None. 1700 experts from 140 countries have endorsed the IPCC documents. Further, this is not the "Al Gore Theory" but the consensus of every other country on the planet except the United States.

[forkeat]

The Oregon Petition — signed by 18,000 scientists world-wide states:

"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate."

[jutiapa14]

OISM--an organization that admits being on the fringe of credible science and one that doesn't even focus energy or attention on climate change, or IPCC, an organization of credible, peer-recognized scientists whose sole purpose is to study climate and climate change. I suppose you have to decide who to believe.

[forkeat]

jutiap, youve got information wrong. the IPCC is not comprised of all scientists. and many scientists have already disproven the outlandish public statements of the IPCC

you say the oregon petition is a fringe group, and they say that about themselves? you know how rediculous that sounds? you have no idea what you are saying. next you'll say they are paid by the oil companies.

[forkeat]

more and more scientists are refuting the al gore theory of global warming. Piece by piece the global warming scam is being dismantled.

[midaztouch]

I never said they don't have a right to develop. But, given their current rate of development, they should be held accountable to develop in a responsible way, just as we (the US) should be. The Kyoto Protocol exempts them from all CO2 emissions limitations. And how do you figure that China's foreign exchange reserve surplus helps the US population?

[john3427]

China only emits 2.65908 tonnes per capita, while the US emits 19.4839 tonnes per capita. Eight times more! Don't you think that China has the right to develop?

And in what ways is the surplus helping the Chinese population? It helps the US population, because it is consuming more than they produce.

Yes, average incomes in China are very poor, about US$2 a day. Why do you think Nike and many other US multinationals go there to produce their stuff?

[midaztouch]

I never said they don't have a right to develop. But, given their current rate of development, they should be held accountable to develop in a responsible way, just as we (the US) should be. The Kyoto Protocol exempts them from all CO2 emissions limitations. And how do you figure that China's foreign exchange reserve surplus helps the US population?

[midaztouch]

All i'm saying is it seems like he was being disingenuous. He makes it sound like we were picking on Laos or Rwanda, not the second (soon to be first) biggest emitter, the next world power and a country with large cash reserves. They build one coal-fired power plant every 4 days! Plus, your #'s are from 2003.

[midaztouch]

He claims that developing countries emit only "a small fracion" of GHGs compared to the US. China is considered a "developing country". He neglects to mention this. In 2001,China's emissions were 47% of the US's. It is now 97% and will exceed it by 2008. Add to this the 1 trillion dollar surplus of foreign exchange reserves and they are hardly the poor country struggling to survive. Also, the Kyoto Protocol, by choosing 1990 as the benchmark year, becomes biased in favor of Russia and Europe.