Added: 4 years ago
From: Corvid
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  • Even if you cut the same amount of teeth of the piston you would need the release tooth to be metal. No different than just cutting teeth of the sector gear alone

  • Whats a Short stroke for? a gun? this was a recommended video so i have no idea what it is... haha

  • what does a short stroke do?

  • @Maddafakka98 Basically, short-stroking reduces the distance the piston has to travel after it's released by the sector gear. This is the final modification performed after 2nd/3rd tooth removal, swiss cheesing the piston and installing a stronger spring. All of these reduce the chance of severe (and the severity of minor) premature engagement of the piston by the sector gear at very high rates of fire.

  • @Corvid thanks :)

  • I remem you telling me it was Kraftwerks, but I never knew what the exact title of the song was, mind telling me?

  • @s2Enko Aerodynamik by Kraftwerk mate!

  • can you help me please? on the sector gear, wihich teeth i have to cut? the first that engage the piston or the last teeth? i saw in different comments but there are different answers :(

  • @italiansniperkill I personally remove the one that first engages the pickup tooth of the piston (and any more from that side too). In my head at least, this ensures the piston isn't released before the tappet plate has been released and fully come to rest, not screwing with the piston release in relation to the tappet plate timing is the aim. However, I strongly suspect it would only make a noticeable difference at VERY high speed, or if you removed a number of teeth from the "wrong" side.

  • @Corvid thank you man, so useful :)

  • Comment removed

  • This is like Pr0n.

  • @haronasi lol, whatever floats ya boat! I'll put some Benny Benassi to it next time!

  • @haronasi wow u fail u cant spelll lol porn

  • @XxXscorpionXninjaXxx Ey, seemly you're new to the internet, lil girl?

  • @haronasi hahaha ur funny and blocked love you <3

  • @XxXscorpionXninjaXxx Trolls, they're everywhere.

  • @haronasi it funny how ur calling ur self a troll but whatever makes u go to sleep at night itz okay then im happy and great agrument

  • @XxXscorpionXninjaXxx "You're a girl, Your argument is invalid."

  • @haronasi yet agin funny but itz okay get blocked blahhhhhh love u pce

  • @XxXscorpionXninjaXxx I got blocked, how come then am I commenting you, kid?

  • thanks great video !!

  • wow thanks man i had no idea!

  • kraftwerk?

  • @drescora Absolutely!

  • what difference would short stroking the piston make performance wise?

    So if i were to just cut out one of the piston teeth in the front, I would be fine? I do have an irregular pitch spring, so is it fine?

    btw, music nicely matches with the animation gj

  • @s2Enko Performance wise to most people? Nothing! Basically, it means the piston has less distance to travel, and thus hits the cylinder head sooner. This is very useful for high speed AEGs. It helps edge the sector away from prematurely engaging the piston pickup, and also helps to give the gun a little more leeway when things go wrong (jams being the main issue!).

    Good old Kraftwerk, very strange band indeed! Not a huge fan of their music, but I find them very inspiring, if that makes sense!

  • @s2Enko Performance wise to most people? Nothing! Basically, it means the piston has less distance to travel, and thus hits the cylinder head sooner. This is very useful for high speed AEGs. It helps edge the sector away from prematurely engaging the piston pickup, and also helps to give the gun a little more leeway when things go wrong (jams being the main issue!).

    Good old Kraftwerk, very strange band indeed! Not a huge fan of their music, but I find them very inspiring, if that makes sense!

  • what difference would short stroking the piston make performance wise?

    So if i were to just cut out one of the piston teeth in the front, I would be fine? I do have an irregular pitch spring, so is it fine?

    btw, music nicely matches with the animation gj

  • so is it ok to remove the necessary teeth on the sector gear without removing teeth off the piston? my piston has 8 metal teeth.....

  • @zaidopinoy Yes, as long as the sector releases the piston from a metal tooth.

  • I'm using a Sig 552 - meaning very short barrel (11.5"). To balance the volume between the cylinder and the barrel, the stock cylinder comes ported to vent off the excess air pressure. Therefore, the distance covered in a full cylinder stroke is not being used, and I should short stroke so that the cylinder head is just making it to the port-hole, correct?

  • @buppus The cylinder stroke may not be directly used to power the BB, but the piston still has to move exactly the same distance. Given that the resistance from a BB only slows the piston down fractionally, shortstroking is still very much wise. It might be an idea to short-stroke as much as is needed (ignoring the ports) and then add new ports, and see if you actually see the FPS increase they're designed to cause.

  • @Corvid my understanding of cylinder ports is to keep a certain volume ratio between the cylinder and the barrel. It's not a pressure issue - it's a volume issue. If you want more pressure, increase spring compression, but what I'm talking about is eliminating inefficiencies in the pressure system that result from too much cylinder volume compared to the barrel volume. In this light, what would be the purpose of adding new ports? Wouldn't that create a negative cylinder/barrel volume imbalance?

  • @buppus As far as I'm aware, the ports are only there to allow piston acceleration to occur before the BB is moved. If a gun has too short a barrel and no ports in the cylinder, the BB begins to move the moment the piston starts travelling forward, resulting in a lower FPS than if a vented cylinder were used. I'm not sure what all this has to do with shortstroking, shortstroking is something you just do if youre forced to, and accept that you'll get an FPS loss.

  • @Corvid yes, you're right, that is one benefit of a ported cylinder. And the ports that are currently drilled in my cylinder are back too far to gain proper volume balance anyway. So I guess I could short-stroke, and then drill my own vent at the proper volume level. My gun currently shoots between 320 and 350 fps, so I might need to upgrade the spring if I decide to short stroke. What do you think?

  • @buppus Depends on how effective you think porting really is, I'm sceptical that trying to balance anything will gain more than a few FPS. I'd say get a new spring if the final FPS is unacceptable.

  • @Corvid it is not meant to increase FPS, it is meant to gain bb flight consistency and stability, and to decrease wear on your gearbox. More DMR aficianados make use of it because it can greatly help with accuracy.

  • @buppus Sounds a touch "mythical" to me, but hey. I'm sure it will be suitably proven/disproven over time! Just like the ideas that 35rps guns are "unrunnable" and "unreliable", or that dryfiring causes massive damage to your average setup gearbox.

  • @Corvid What do you think of adding spacers to the spring guide to pre-compress the spring, thereby compensating for the shortstroke?

  • @buppus Sounds like a plan! I beleive RiotSC does a spacer much like that for use with his batshit-insane dual sector gear. Does the same job as a stronger spring, but without the spring! That said, there could always be an advantage to having the spring highly compressed throughout the entire cycle, but who knows. An adjustable spacer (or spacers) would be handy, should be possible to fine tune FPS that way.

  • @Corvid Ok, so just moving from the stock spring guide to a ball-bearing spring guide should offset the short-stroke - provided you're using a non-linear spring. My stock JG spring is unfortunately linear, so that may not work for me. Most people guess the JG stock spring to be somewhere around the M110 - they shoot ~330-350 FPS out of the box. If I was to replace the spring with a non-linear one, what strength would you recommend? (Not particularly concerned with ROF)

  • @buppus Basically, yeah, you should only lose a bit of velocity. Have a look on the Airsoft Mechanics forum, RiotSC details the effects of extreme short-stroking during the use of his Cyclone sector gear. You should be able to fairly accurately work out how much you'll lose, but it won't be a massive amount for one tooth. Use what you need spring wise... I use an M110, nice balance of power, piston return speed, and not too much wear.

  • i didn't have to shortstroke my piston because it came like that (supercore)

  • Unless I'm not quite understanding you, youve got the wrong end of the stick (or piston in this case). Shortstroking involves removing teeth from the sector gear and sometimes from the piston (depending on the number of metal teeth).

    Shortstroking has nothing to do with removing (or the lack of) teeth at the pickup end of the piston (i.e. opposite to the head end). I say this because VERY few pistons come shortstroked, while many have the 2nd and even 3rd teeth missing right out the package.

  • So in theory, Shortstroking will prevent Pre Mature Engagement? What exactly is Premature engagement on a normal gearbox running at high speeds? How much of an increase of ROF will I get with swiss cheesing the piston?

  • Shortstroking is one of many things you can do to reduce the chance of premature engagement. It isn't a solid line; less severe premature engagement acts more like excessive wear.

    Premature engagement is the sector trying to engage the piston's teeth before the piston is fully forward and at rest (as it should be normally).

    Swiss cheeseing the piston will give you very little no RoF increase unless your piston is EXTREMELY heavy, or your spring very weak.

  • LOL interesting : D

  • so what does short stroking do?

  • Decreases the return time of the piston, and gives a very slight ROF increase (so little it's not worth doing just for the RoF). It is used to help prevent premature engagement in high RoF setups. Best done AFTER all the usual mods, like swiss cheeseing, installing a stronger spring, etc.

  • Does it matter which teeth you cut off the sector gear? (IE the leading teeth that contact first or the end teeth that contact last?) I was wondering whether it would have a substantial effect on the timing for the air nozzle.

  • Yes, in theory (and apparently in practice) it does. However, I'd suspect you'd only see noticeable problems when taking off 2 or more teeth. I've tried both ways with no ill effects. I usually remove the tooth that first picks up the piston, but then again, I've only ever needed to shortstroke one tooth. Playing around with some spare gearbox parts would probably give a reasonable theoretical answer.

  • I took off two. I figured it was logical considering it's a gun with high speed gears, high speed motor, and 12v battery. I'll play around with it and watch the air nozzle while spinning the gears. I do believe I did cut off the wrong teeth but no harm done, I have like 5 sets of CA gears.

  • how many teeth do u take off on ur sector gear on ur guns?

  • One, but anyone foolish enough to copy my setup "because it works" may well find out why you can't just copy another setup with regards to shortstroking. Not unless you've copied EVERYTHING else (i.e. spring, piston weight, AoE, exact Rof). The best way is to do the various mods FIRST, and then work out of your gun is still prematurely engaging the piston. That way shortstroking isn't unnecessarily done. Or worse, excessive and useless shortstroking is done!

  • hehehe

  • imma try 3

  • Is this for high speed set ups? Or is this video for the AOE as well?

    I fixed the AOE on my SRC by removing the 2nd tooth on the piston and by adding a cylinder head pad to my cylinder head. Am I going to be having the problem shown in the 2nd clip?

    thanks

  • Nope, this only applies to removing the FINAL teeth of the piston (i.e. changing which tooth is the release tooth) and taking teeth off the sector gear (both of which are done to do "shortstroking").

    Be aware of people telling you to "fix" your AoE by doing X: most people fail to realise that it varies from gun to gun, gearbox to gearbox: it is far better to CHECK your AoE by playing around with half the gearbox shell with the spring removed.

  • Okay cool

    Yeah, I made sure the sector gear was correctly engaged with the piston. (cylinder pad seemed to be perfect)

    thanks

  • hahaha thanks a lot now i know how to add rof ehehehe hahaha!!!

  • Nice video thanks

  • whats the weird song playing? its kinda... addicting!

  • That, my friend, is Aerodynamik by Kraftwerk. They are to electronic music what Black Sabbath is to heavy metal, total pioneers. Some people compare them both to modern day music and find them a little strange, but I personally like hearing what modern electronic music (and heavy metal for that matter!) evolved from. Check out the live version of radioactivity on here, scary as fuck at the beginning, really powerful song though. All the more so after watching a documentary about Sellafield.

  • Thank you for this piece of invaluable information! It really helped me when I started to build a high rof setup.

  • would you recomend a full metal gearbox?

  • Considering that even moderate upgrades can crack the shells of half decent METAL gearboxes, I would strongly recomend against plastic ones. Having said that, any gun that comes with a plastic gearbox is going to be shite anyway. All gearbox internals are metal anyway if that's what you mean... minus the piston ofcourse, which is best kept plastic.

  • why are they always plastic(i know about poly-carb pistons but isnt that still a form of plastic)

  • Because plastic is MUCH less dense than Aluminium or even Titanium. Both of which are either too heavy or too strong: would you rather strip a $12 TM piston, or a $50 Titanium piston which ruins your entire gearset in the process? You want the piston to weigh as little as you possibly can in a high RoF AEG. And yeah, polycarbonate is just a type of plastic.

  • Corvid, I am finally in the prosses of making a Real High speed set up because I have a couple of Pistons. :D

    So far, I have just Swiss cheesed the Piston and cut out the secnt to last tooth on the "Spring side".

    Now, I have to get the AOE Correct?

    I read your PM on ASF, You are the best High speed Gearbox person I know..

    Thanks for the help, I am trying to find the perfict Spacer for the AOE but I want it to be light.. What did you use?

  • I'll send you a PM mate.

  • Thaks a lot.

  • kid you're the bomb... good job man... i'll be keepin a close eye on your posts for more tips and pointers

  • have you heard about the systema revolution gearbox?

    its a drop in v2 gearbox with ptw tech. like an ECU among other things

    go to redwolfairsoft to learn more if don't know already

  • I have, but I remain unimpressed by just about everything Systema make. Plus I can't see there being much of an actual advantage upgrading to such a gearbox. Expensive gears to replace, what appears to be a random piston/cylinder head, and a poor quality MOSFET. Hardly 30+rps material. Even their so called "high speed" gearbox was practically a scam. I'll stick with a nice simple split ICS gearbox for the moment...

  • You can only depend on systema's motors. If you look for gears and pistons, I would aim for brands like Prometheus and ANGEL.

  • Well, This does explain some, But you are forgetting. Short Strokeing the piston itself doesnt mean you have to remove 2 teeth. I removed the second to last tooth on my piston it it is fine.

    Would this lead to problems?

  • You can do what you like, provided the number of teeth less that the now piston uses is the same as the number of teeth removed from the sector. And of course provided final tooth (closest to the piston head) is metal.

  • so is it better to have more or less teeth on a piston? and also what gives it a higher rate of fire less teeth from both the piston and the gear or more?

  • Unless your gun is running into problems with premature engagement, don't bother with short-stroking. Less teeth means a higher rate of fire... BUT: short-stroking is a POOR way is actually INCREASEING your rate of fire. You lose FPS on a per-tooth basis, and a whole host of other drawbacks. Don't bother unless you are running a high-speed gun. Once you've used MOSFETs/batteries/motors/ect to get a decent RoF, THEN think about short-stroking to keep your gun running smoothly.

  • Awsome, that really helped!!!!!!

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