I think they were deceived, but it also has a lot to do with logic. I was deceived to believe a lot of things that aren't true, and I questioned a lot of things in my religion. I believe in God, I am a reborn Christian. I follow Jesus. God is love. If the world says it's wrong that I am willing to die for love - for love of another human being, for love for God - then I say there's something wrong with the world.God wants us all to live, love and be saved and have peace. That's why I think(cont)
Another problem with that argument is people dying for delusions is still way more plausible than a talking snake, a talking donkey, cherubs with flaming swords, seraphs, witches, demons possessing pigs, dead bodies returning to life, a woman turning into a pillar of salt, walking on water, sticks turning into snakes, a river turning into blood, a 969 year old man, a global flood, a bronze stick curing snakebite, the sun stopping, supernatural virgin birth, a picnic lunch feeding 4000...
Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. The last 2 posts were actual statements from Einstein himself who fervently denied atheism.He was an agnostic though. His position is wise, and a lesson all atheist need to think about. He admits he didn't know and neither do you or I.
Einstein firmly rejected the label atheist, which he associated with certainty regarding God's nonexistence.I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. Einstein was more inclined to denigrate disbelievers than the faithful.[17] "The fanatical atheists," Einstein said in correspondence, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle.
A normal person in his right mind with a gun at his head would stop the charades right then".Ok, it's all a lie we made up, don't shoot". Many people are deceived but it takes alot of faith to believe that these particular disciples were decieved. They walked with Jesus for years. They didn't just read about him hundreds of yrs later. That is a huge difference in your argument.Peace:)
Let's say you saw a man drive thru a red light. And your sure of it. And let's say that 100 other people witnessed the same thing.Then the cop comes and ask everyone what they saw. All 100 people say that the light was green.Then the cop asks you what color was the light, you know what you would say, the light was red.Doesn't matter what anyone says, you know it was red. ..My point is this,those disciples knew what they saw and it didn't matter what punishment they faced to prove that...
Nobody dies for what they know to be a lie.Nobody willingly dies for something they know is made up. Those examples you gave like Muslims who die for what they believe in is definitely true. The difference with those people you used as examples and the disciples were that the disciples were eye witnesses to what Jesus did.That is all premised on the fact that you believe in scripture.
I love you. Your ability to get your point across is pretty remarkable. Your examples happen to be original and legitimate, and I love you. I fucking love you. Have a great and godless day. :)
the apostles didn't die for what they believe ...they died for what they knew. Why would the apostles go to their deaths knowing that they hid the body...or knowing that Christ was still dead?? Doesn't make a lick of sense??
@comms35 Is there any question that the 9/11 hijackers were the most sincere believers on those planes? Someone being willing to die for beliefs =/= evidence. Try again.
@Raptor302 ..Dying for a sincere belief is totally different than dying for what you know . The 9/11 hijackers have no personal knowledge of Mohammed ...or his actions other than what is written about him. The apostles had first hand knowledge of Jesus ....his word and actions. The apostles died for their eye witness accounts......Even after ...you must admire the fact that in writing the gospels ...they never held back writing themselves in a very bad light....
@comms35 The principle is the same even with a "first hand account". The brain is a biochemical machine and can sincerely believe anything it wants. But when we don't even know for sure if there were any apostles at all, much less if they died for their testament, it really becomes a moot point.
@Raptor302 the principle is the same is absolute hogwash. That has to be the worst argument I have heard. The disciples were cowards, so what changed them from a coward to the founders of the christian faith, a lie?not likely. maybe they actually saw christ resurrected.that would explain the change.If you saw someone resurrected you would tell everyone too.So either they saw that or they made up the whole thing. Why would they make it up and why would they knowingly die for a lie, they wouldn't.
@89afvet You act like that's our only two options here. How do you know how the disciples died? How do you know which gospels they wrote. Considering that we are drawing from information orally communicated for the first couple of decades before finally being written down at least 40 years later after the supposed events and then passed down with revisions for the next 2000 yrs, which informatioin is actually true. I'll go with the scientific explanation, thanks.
@Raptor302 it is my opinion based on the evidence put forth that we have enough reliable information to make an intelligent choice on the disciples. that is still an act of faith but not reckless faith.of course everyone has to make up their own mind and if you don't choose to believe that's entirely your call and you have that right.Peace.
@89afvet What's the difference between faith and reckless faith? Both assume their own predetermined conclusions without evidence. The fact is that I can prove christianity wrong by walking into any museum in America and showing you a T-Rex skeleton. Really hard to accept that humans sinned and need a savior when sin was in the world 64.99 million years before Adam ever got the munchies.
@Raptor302 everyone has faith in some way or another. You have faith that when you get on an airplane you will get to your destination safely.You aren't guaranteed that but you are putting your faith in the fact that the aircraft is proven safe and the pilot knows how to fly it.We all put our faith in things based on the knowledge of each particular situation. And as for your dinosaur statement, I agree with you in an old earth but with an intelligent being that started the laws of evolution.
@89afvet "You aren't guaranteed that but you are putting your faith in the fact that the aircraft is proven safe and the pilot knows how to fly it."
That's not the same thing as faith that has absolutely no evidence. In fact it's not faith at all. I place trust in the airplane and the pilot based on prior experience and observation.
I dont understand how christians recounciled their faith with evolution. If humans aren't responsible for 'sin', what do we need to be saved from?
@Raptor302 The 9/11 hijackers were muslim extremists. All muslims read the same book. Their version of the bible. The Quran. 99.9% of muslims do not share the same beliefs that the hijackers did. So, Angie tries to hijack the muslim religion to try to make her point about religious beliefs. The hijackers did not represent muslims. The hijackers hijacked the muslim religion. The hijackers were just a bunch of radicals that were indoctrinated by anti-American terrorists, period.
@lonardozee I have no doubt and am grateful that the majority of muslims do not share the beliefs of the 9/11 hijackers. The point I was making is that just because someone dies for their beliefs, that does not make the belief automatically true. Every religion has its "martyrs" (both peaceful/passive and violent/aggressive). The veracity of any belief does not increase simply because someone, somewhere is willing to die for it.
i can understand you're point of view. i also questioned the presence of God. but through personal experiences, i have found Him to be more present than i ever would have imagined. i do not judge you, i understand that you are unable to see or feel God's love. it's called faith for a reason. if it were always easy to see, it would just be the way things are. i'm sorry that other christians can be so close-minded. i accept your point of view, i do not agree but i understand thats how you feel.
peace to you, youtuber! You say that people get decieved easily, even athiests can be decieved right? deception comes in many forms in life, it doesn't just link with religion (as many think this way) ?. Yes all humans have weaknesses, even athiests.. you agree? The point is DECEPTION IS EVEVERYWHERE! the world is full of it. Do you have HOPE?
Peter, the point I've been trying to make is this: You don't get to claim the bible is a moral absolute and then say, "Except for the parts I don't agree with or find immoral". If it's a moral absolute, then the entire book is a moral absolute. If that's the case, then people like myself have a stronger code of moral ethics than your god possesses or advocates.
Angie doesn't understand the argument. Yes, people are deceived all the time, but that's not the premise. The premise given was that of dying for a lie, KNOWING IT WAS A LIE.
Angie, you are not getting the argument. The argument is that the disciples of Christ would not have died for a lie, knowing it was a lie! In the face of the NT narrative, the disciples would have known if Christ has not risen from the dead, and therefore may have gone along with the claims of Christ for a time in order to save face, but would never have given their lives for something THEY KNEW WAS A LIE. This is not the same as someone dying for a lie they didn't realize was a lie.
Ladies and gentlemen, it's clear Angie has been exposed to one of the many brands of false Christianity, has anger and bitterness running through her veins, and is now proceeding to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. I actually agree with her on a number fronts regarding some of stupidity we see in the church today, but God is still a reality, He isn't going anywhere, and it's an act of insanity on her part to deny her Creator.
@peterpulpitpounder Once again peter, just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true. Provide evidence to back up your claim or you're just as deluded as the people Angie was raised by.
I agree with your premise, but you must also apply the same to yourself. Certainly not everyone is right. There is right and there is wrong, unless, of course, you deny a Creator, then you have no valid, absolute basis for morality and/or spirituality.
The heavens declare the glory of God. We are talking about seemingly countless billions of galaxies and stars. And all of this came into being somehow via natural processes?
@peterpulpitpounder Your god is not the center of morality. Read your bible and you'll see he advocates slavery, misogyny, child rape, and genocide (just to name a few).
Yes, the natural world and universe can come about through natural processes. You've just committed the logical fallacy of the argument from personal incredulity: I can't wrap my head around how something this complex could have occurred, so something supernatural must have done it.
Been there, done that, and, interestingly, I have come to the exact opposite conclusion as yourself. I was at one point moving down the road to destruction, but, thankfully, my eyes were opened to both the logical and scientific reality of intelligent design. Evolution is an absurdity, and it's moral and spiritual ramifications are most disturbing.
If you're upset with religion, you have only mother nature to blame, so go kick a tree. It's really sad to hear you speak.
@peterpulpitpounder Evolution is not about morality or spirituality. Intelligent design isn't science, it's religion trying to pass itself off as science, hence the reason it was shot down in Kitzmiller vs Dover Area School District. Intelligent design works from the premise of irreducible complexity. So far, not one thing ID proponents have produced as irreducibly complex has stood up to scientific evaluation. In this case, you're not only wrong but horribly deluded.
@peterpulpitpounder Intelligent design is not scientific reality, that would be Evolution. I have a feeling that the only reason evolution is an absurdity to you is because you can't grasp the concept that humans are not above the animal kingdom but rather just one cog in the wheel. We are special only in the regard we have achieved a level of evolutionary advantages to make us one of the dominant species on this planet.
Man is just one cog in the wheel, just a dominant species? That explains how you can abort (kill) a human being, and think nothing of it. Sad, very sad.
@peterpulpitpounder See, now you're trying to change the subject rather than addressing the points I'm making. I've never been party to an abortion. I would advocate adoption in most cases. The only time I think abortion is necessary is in the case of the pregnancy putting the mother's life in danger or in cases of rape and/or incest producing a child. However there are no laws against abortion as of yet.
As for killing, if I have to kill to protect myself and the ones I love, I would do it.
Please correct me on this, for perhaps I heard you wrong in one of your videos. Did you not have an abortion?
Yes, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, aborting is justified, but in the vast majority of instances it is neither necessary or acceptable. It is murder.
If you had an abortion because your life was truly in danger, then I apologize for the statement. If not, then my point is still valid.
@peterpulpitpounder I said that I was not a part of an abortion. I'm a guy. Kinda hard for me to have an abortion. I know Angie has had an abortion which was apparently necessary for her health. Here's a good question: if you kill someone in war, do you consider that murder or justified?
@peterpulpitpounder Actually I do have a basis for morality outside of your god. First off, a good majority of developmental psychologists agree that the personality and moral center of a child is developed around age 8. I wasn't brought into the fold of christianity until I was 11, so my moral compass had already been set by my parents. As for a codified set of moral standards, I agree with secular humanism quite a lot and do my best to live according to those standards.
I agree with your premise. You want evidence? Look up and behold the starts, the billions and billions of them which exist. Oh, and you might want to study the amazing design of the human eye, for that certainly did not "evolve" on its own. Intellgent design is the trumpet sound of the world in which we live.
@peterpulpitpounder First off, there are numerous scientific articles and papers that have been published showing the evolution of the human eye through the fossil record. Fail again good sir. Second, the stars have been around longer than the planet we're on, but according to your bible, your god made the earth first then the stars. We have evidence (lots of it) that contradicts your bible. I would strongly suggest you put the bible down and read an actual science book.
@johnthreesixteen316 No. In point of fact, it's no different than the greek myths, the Bahavad Gita, or the Quran. It's a fantasy book filled with fairy tales to keep primitive humans in check and make them feel less scared about an uncaring world.
@johnthreesixteen316 You're obviously wrong and I'll explain it again: Jews don't recognize christ as god. Muslims don't recognize christ is god. Hindus don't recognize christ as god. Buddhists don't recognize christ is god. Atheists don't recognize any god or gods. The only person not admitting anything is you. You can't admit that you have no evidence to support your claims other than you little book of fairy tales.
@johnthreesixteen316 You mean the guy who tried to use a jar of peanut butter to show how evolution is invalid? Are you really going to take scriptural advice from someone that looney?
@johnthreesixteen316 Hello friend. Everyone knows Christ is God. There are only those who deny Him. We all know where we are going to go after this life is over......into His presence. People like to debate this but there is no point. Christ has built the answer to this into our being.
@kiwichristian2009 If your god sends me to hell for simply questioning his existence because sufficient evidence to support said existence didn't in fact exist, then your god is not only a prick, he's not worthy of worship.
@logansrun1980 Hi, my friend. Good question. God doesnt send people to hell, people send themselves there. The question you must ask yourself is whether you really want to find the truth about whether God exists, or do you love your sin more?
@kiwichristian2009 In point of fact, your bible does say that god will send me to hell for disbelief. Christ's own words say that the only unpardonable sin isn't suicide, but disbelief. Any god who sends me to hell for not belief in ONE deity out the the thousands that have been invented when it was within that deity's power to provide physical evidence of its existence is a morally bankrupt deity.
@kiwichristian2009 And let's take this a step further. Two people die the same day: one is a child who never believed in god or christ but lived a virtuous life; the other was a serial rapist who was never caught but made a deathbed conversion. The rapist goes to heaven while the moral child goes to hell. That is not morality. How you live your life is more important than whether you have blind faith in something.
@kiwichristian2009 Actually, they're not. If you had bothered to read your bible (which is supposed to be the inerrant word of god) it states pretty clearly in there that the only way to get to heaven is to believe in Christ and the only unforgivable sin is disbelief. Anything else you think is an attempt by you to ignore the parts of the bible that don't jive well with your own conscience. That should tell you that you are more moral than the god you worship.
@logansrun1980 Infants are already 'under the blood' of Jesus until they can grasp the fact that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. We are not required to submit people who are unbelievers to baptism---babies and young children are considered unbelievers. Baptism is only for those who repent and believe and want to obey the command to identify with Christ publically in that way.
@kiwichristian2009 If you don't get baptized and believe blindly you go to hell, regardless of how moral you live your life. You can live a completely immoral life, not pay any consequences here on Earth, and then ascend to heaven simply because you believed. Any system that relies on blind obedience rather than how you live your life is a thoroughly immoral system. This, along with a host of other reasons, is why I say I am more moral than your god and hopefully so are you.
@logansrun1980 I think you have been grossly misinformed. No-where does the Bible say that baptism saves you. A saved person who is not baptized goes go to heaven.
@kiwichristian2009 Then why bring up baptism at all? The dogma and doctrines differ from Christian denomination to denomination; the end result is the same: disbelief is the ultimate sin. Would you lock a child in the basement and torture them FOREVER simply because they didn't believe in you? I would hope not otherwise you're just as immoral as the supposedly ultimate moral authority.
@kiwichristian2009 See you're focusing on assaulting my logic rather than answering the questions posed to you. Do you believe that disbelief is the worst thing a person can do and should be tortured forever because of it? If you had children, would you tie them up in the basement and torture them for the rest of eternity (if you could live that long) for simply not taking you at your on blind faith?
@logansrun1980 I am doing no such thing. You are saying things about the Word of God that are false, i am correcting those things. It is not a case of worshipping God. that will not save you. No, i do not believe that disbelief is the worst thing a person can do.
@kiwichristian2009 Well according to your bible, blaspheming the holy spirit (rejection or disbelief in Christ/God) is the worst thing you can do and warrants eternal punishment in hell. And once again you're proving that you haven't read your bible and know only what has been parceled out to you during your local church services. You do not possess the ability to think for yourself, only the ability to follow what others have told you is the correct path. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
@logansrun1980 Hello friend. God doesn't send any children to hell. How you live your life won't save you. Humbling yourself in front of your Creator and asking for His forgiveness will. It's all about pride.
@johnthreesixteen316 Yes, the pride of a supposedly all-powerful creator who throws you in the water and keeps a safe distance away with a life preserver saying, "If you love and believe in me, I'll give you this to save your life. Otherwise, you're gonna drown."
@kiwichristian2009 Another thing: I'm not going to lessons on what's morally right and wrong from a book that advocates child rape, human sacrifice, slavery, and willful ignorance.
@johnthreesixteen316 Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Exodus 21:7-11, Judges 11:29-40, 1 Kings 13:1-2. Thank you for proving you've never read your own holy book. You've lost the game. Go away now.
@logansrun1980 Hello friend. God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We choose to go there ourselves. He doesn't want anyone to perish....."The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 Hell is our choice.....eternal separation from God is the card we pick, not the card we are dealt.
@johnthreesixteen316 John, please see the above bible verses I've provided that show just how wrong you really are. Here's a couple of more to show that jesus (if he ever existed) was a liar: Matthew 21:21-22 (surprisingly enough you're omnipotent god can't regrow limbs on amputees no matter how fervent and arduously someone prays), Matthew 18:19-20, John 14:13-14
@johnthreesixteen316 Oh and before you say we can ignore the old testament: Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:17, 2 Peter 20-21, Mark.7:9-13, John 7:19. Obviously your christ was pretty adamant about following the laws of the old testament (he was a jew after all). As for what laws he speaks of, at best your christ replaced the blood sacrifice laws, not the "moral" laws that god supposedly laid down to Moses and the Jews.
@johnthreesixteen316 Evidently the Jews and Muslims don't recognize Christ is God. Neither do Hindus, Buddhists, or Shintoist. Perhaps you rephrase your statement to reflect reality.
I have spoken to soldiers who came back from the war zones in Iraq knowing full well that the official versions of the events of Sept 11th 2201 were untrue.Most people will die for a lie instead of taking the chance of being called a coward or a traitor....
Yes, some people have died for a lie, NOT KNOWING it was a lie, but nobody dies for a lie KNOWING IT IS LIE. This is one of the great proofs of the legitimacy of the Christian Gospel. The disciples did indeed give their lives for the Christian message, for they saw Jesus alive after His crucifixion, and were convinced.
Had Jesus been a hoax, the disciples would have know it, and they would never have sacrificed themselves for bogus message.
@peterpulpitpounder You don't think it's at all possible for the discipples to have been deceived? You don't think it's at all possible that the gospel authors (not the disciples or even anyone who met Jesus in person) fucked up, embellished, made the story sound cooler? Really?
When the facts are examined (Biblically or historically), one cannot conclude the original discipes were duped. They would have clearly known that the claims of Christ were bogus. Had he been luring, they they may have tried to save face to some degree by fabricating some story, but not unto death. These men clearly died for the truth. Like I said, people have often died for a lie, not knowing it was a lie, but nobody dies for something they know is not the truth.
Is it just to reject or despise someone under the premsie of misrepresentation? I'm sure you would not want to be rejected based on something said of or about you that was not true. I believe this is what you have done and are now doing to God, and He's not very pleased about it. If I could somehow extract the lies that have been poured into your mind, I am confident you would see a very different image of the God who made you.
No, I don't believe the disciples were deceived. Like I said, they did not give their lives in ignorance. People have died for a lie, not knowing so, but nobody has ever died for something they knew was a lie. Read "More Than A Carpenter," by Josh McDowell. It is a most excellent book. Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic, and the facts reveal that He was/is indeed LORD.
@peterpulpitpounder Actually, her reasoning doesn't fit with your preconceived notions. As for religious deceptions, let me give you some examples strictly from Christians: Jonestown and the Branch Davidians in Waco.
Now I bet your response will be that they weren't real christians? Ever notice that when people claiming to be christians do horrible things, the rest of the christians say they're not real christians?
@peterpulpitpounder David Koresh claimed to be the returned Christ. See the bottom portion of my response to your claim. See the part of about 'true' christians? You just made the mistake I predicted. There's no such thing as a true christian. Ted Haggert must not be a real christian because he frakked a male prostitute. You're not a true christian. You know who's the closest to being a true christian? Fred Phelps. And that's a scary motherfucker.
You are fixated on the morally bankrupt among christendom, whose behavior is indicative of their apostate character. Even the Bible warns of such people, so this is nothing new or surprising development. Most of the pastors in my geographical location are god-fearing men, who truly love God, and who give of themselves daily for the sake and benefit of others. It is not at all as you project. Your hatred and bitterness have skewed your thinking. God still love you though.
@peterpulpitpounder No. I'm pointing out the ones who's minds get warped by and use your religion for evil deeds. The problem is your bible is such a mangled pack of contradictions its easy to become someone like David Koresh or Fred Phelps. Read the entire book sometime and not just the passages your preacher reads on sundays.
You are apparently guilty of the same. David Koresh was certainly warped, and for you to say the Bible is a mangled pack of contradiction, tell me your mind is not where it shoud be either. I am well acquainted with the Bible and its content, and have been nurturing people in the Word of God for many years. Those who "truly" understand and embrace its message ALWAYS are changed for the better, for the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, etc.
@AngieAntiTheist you know who the Father of lies is? Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. its funny how you point out God as deciever. has been man since sin enetered the World. Your Just as decieved as the rest of them who turned their back on God.
"Ah, so you have a vague feeling you can't or won't provide evidence for. How utterly not shocking :) " Ok. I didn't say what I felt wasn't vague. I wasn't raised religiously, wasn't raised in a cult as you unfortunately were. I hope you live a good life, and enjoy you're life. Nothing you can say can make me become, magically, an atheist, as I cannot say anything that will make you believe. You would probably be more at home in Europe where mocking religioius beliefs is common and accepted.
@TheLouLouRose I'd probably be more at home in Europe for a lot of reasons, but lack of religious influence in secular society is certainly a compelling one. I would not try to "magically" make you an atheist. However, there is absolutely something you could do to make me a believer: Provide sufficient evidence (facts) that what you believe is true. If you could demonstrate your beliefs were true, I'd not be an atheist. Very simple. I'm waiting on god to show up, till then I won't believe.
To be perfectly honest, when I watch your videos, you dont seem totally convinced by what you, urself, are saying. Maybe it is because you, yourself, say you were brought up with religious training. Maybe it is just me? Probably. I don't know. But, myself, when I watch your videos I think, she doesnt truly believe this.
You probably do, so I WILL apologise. I'm sorry. Im just left a little uncovinced.
I won't try to argue the theological points because Im uneducated and would not them justice
@TheLouLouRose When 1 person sees something knowone see's its called delusion. When many see it its called relgion. When somebody brings the ultimate question "why we are here"?. And you have 100's of people standing next to you seeing something allot cant. You feel like your being tricked. And you are. Some are smart and secure enough to know they are being tricked hence the"unconvinced" perception you have. My perception of the look Angie has is religious are bat shit desperate ignorat nuts.
Strapping a bomb to your chest to take others out...is not the same as being a witness (just as Jesus Did) to the evil deeds of this planet...The first apostles did not volenteer to be crucified up side down or their heads cut off or the others , who were burned at the stake or pulled apart by horses..Oh no !.... and as for those chest pack bombers...if they are to recieve 72 virgins,then i wonder how old...,because muhamad the pedophile's child bride was 6 years old.. truth is truth !
@christophorM Not to be a Muslim apologist, but Aisha was actually 9 (not that 9 is an okay age for marriage or sex either.) Facts just really do help your case.
I've done another video called "UFOs and Eye Witnesses" on this point you and so many others raised. Someone claiming to have seen something, even sincerely believing that they did, is not in itself sufficient evidence to believe they are reporting it accurately or honestly.
@AngieAntiTheist the marriage contract was written when she was 6...you and i both know that there are no UFO's ...have people went on space trips in their minds that seemed real ???...i would say probably so.
@christophorM And I know (to the same degree of certainty we know there aren't UFOs) that your god is just as ridiculous and just as non-existent! You're starting to get it :D
@AngieAntiTheist If my "ridiculous" God (as you say ) put you any closer to the sun you would burn up like a twig..There are no UFOs but Demons and Angels ... He created both for a very Good purpose.
@christophorM Yet your god has no effect on the movements of the planets or stars. They follow their orbits with no supernatural interference, fancy that! As for the golidlocks argument you're trying to make, we EVOLVED here. You claim there are demons and angels & you have LESS evidence than UFO nutters.
@AngieAntiTheist oh right angie... a little dot exploded .. and the earth just happened to be the right distance from the sun by chance...your smarter than that theory that men/weman hide behind...I see demons in people all the time...watch the "mast delieverance video" on my page if you can???...the nice young lady in the front sitting with her mom im guessing...she looks sweet enough but has demons due to bitterness or unforgiveness or the occult?,which are major open doors.she don't have one?
@christophorM Deliverance? Been there, done that! Gotta a video & everything "Demons & Deliverance." They aren't REAL!!!!! You're a fucking tool and you need to take your head outta your ass and look at reality. There is NO SUPERNATURAL ANYTHING or if they exist, they never fucking do under proper experimental conditons. No, it's just "so & and so SENSED something". It's all BULLSHIT.
@AngieAntiTheist HAHA @ U...that same anger you had when you called me a tool ...is what killed the apostles...they were probably called worst than that..but o'well...and yes i am a tool...ISAIAH 41:15...
@christophorM Fine tuning argument. Old hat. Did you know that the earth's orbit is elliptical? We get closer to and farther from the sun all the time. The zone of viability is not as precise as you believe. Given the trillions of galaxies containing billions of stars, what do you think the odds are that no planet ever sat in the inhabitable zone? Given the odds of it not happening, do you believe a lottery winner is favored of God?
@AngieAntiTheist the pedophile mohummad married aisha when she was SIX YEARS OLD and had sex with her when she was NINE YEARS OLD. In islamic countries, this is STILL PERMITTED.
@christophorM But, peter was NOT crucified upside down, neither was he in rome. There is no evidence for this or any other catholic doctrine. It is just as absurd as muslims OBEYING THE KORAN and killing Christians.
@kiwichristian2009 Actually the Catholic church believes they've found the resting place of St. Peter underneath the Basilica in the catacombs. However it has yet to be independently verified.
@logansrun1980 Hello, my friend. Yes, i know. I doubt they will get it independently verified. There is actually a recent discovery that his tomb has been found in Jerusalem and i believe there is more evidence that proves this right than the nonsense that he was ever in Rome.
@christophorM See this is what happens when you try to equivocate that another religion is worse. Of course pedophilia is wrong. So is sacrificing your daughter as a burnt offering after promising an omniscient god to sacrifice the next thing that walked through the door. Evil deeds occur because humans are vain, short-sighted, selfish creatures as a group. We have good ones but they don't last that long in this world. They either become the problem or the problem kills them.
I have a big problem with eyewitnesses who saw angels. If I believed in angels then perhaps I could would accept the credibility of an eyewitness who saw angels.
An eyewitness is not credible if they witness the incredible.
Sure Angie, people can be deceived- happens all the time. But I would point out that when you say the disciples were deceived the SAME way a Muslim bomber is your thinking unclear. The disciples, unlike the Muslim, were in a unique position as to know first hand if Jesus really rose from the dead or not. So the real question is not were they deceived by were they lying? If so, I'd ask next- to what end? What do they possibly gain? Sorry but men in this context don't do this. There's no benefit.
Thanks- just watched it. Interesting analogy, but I'm not exactly persuaded. You're stating now the disciples were trick by there senses. Specifically what? The empty tomb or the post resurrection appearances? According to the biblical account its not like they wanted to believe. Jesus had enemies. I wonder, were they all deceived by their sense too? I think if I wanted to shut the disciples up I would have just tossed the corpse on a cart and pushed it through the streets for all to see.
It doesn't matter. The evidence for the disciples and Jesus even existing is very faulty. And even if they did exist and "saw it happen", that doesn't prove anything. I've met people who claimed to be abducted by aliens and UFO's, and demons.
@maxhiner699@maxhiner699 I find skeptics, such as yourself, often time highly amusing. To so cavalierly dismiss the entire testimony of scripture because you know people who talk about aliens demonstrates nothing more than you foolishly putting your own ignorance up on display. You said the "evidence is faulty." What evidence do you refer to and how did you come to your conclusion? I'm always up for learning something new and interesting. Please indulge yourself.
@maxhiner699 Could you go ahead then and quote Josephus. I should be delighted to see what you have found. I have his entire works. Show me what I may have missed.
@Shiloh2rtn First, Josephus was not a contemporary, he was born four years after christ's supposed death in 37 C.E. Second, his Testamonius mentions christ twice and these are wildly believed by historians to be embellishments by early church fathers, specifically Origen or Eusebius. Third, Josephus was a devout jew based on his own writings and writings about him. A devout Jew would consider christ a heretic just like the Sanhedrin supposedly did.
@logansrun1980 "wildly believed" ?? you're funny! Look, I just wanted maxhiner699 to....well....Quote Josephus. He brought him, not I. What makes you think I depend on him anyway? I get my info from the gospels, not Joe.
@Shiloh2rtn You're right, I meant widely believed. Here's the main thing: the gospels have NEVER been corroborated by contemporary historical sources. I promise you that if the city of Jerusalem was overrun with zombies like it says it was in Matthew, someone would have written it down. The oldest gospel is Mark (the ending of which is widely considered by even christian authorities to be a forgery) was around 70 C.E., almost forty years after christ's supposed death.
@Shiloh2rtn 40 years in the bronze age without reliable means of preserving stories outside of the oral tradition (once again, there are no contemporary historical writings concerning this miraculous Jewish rabbi) is not what I or most historians would consider reliable accounts. I don't care what the gospels say happened, I care about what actually happened. Since the only evidence you have is the gospels, I'm not really going to put much credence in a book that has been proven patently false
@Shiloh2rtn Not a chance man. I've still got the privilege of speaking my mind, same as you. If you don't like the fact that I'm punching holes the size of the Titanic in your arguments, you can discontinue arguing with someone who has a greater knowledge-base than you do.
@logansrun1980 you're a real jewel. What specific argument have a presented that you believe you've punched holes in? I've put forth none yet. Tell me, since you think you have a "privilege to speak..." making apparent your believe you have personal rights as well as A BELIEF that truth exists (since you're supposedly punching holes in "mine," where exactly did you derive your morality by which you make ANY judgments whatsoever? And how do you determine truth even exists? Pray tell, bold one.
@Shiloh2rtn Secular humanism is an excellent moral system. Ultimately, I and I alone have to shoulder the responsibility for my actions. I accept that my actions can have positive and negative effects on humanity, so I curtail those instances as much as possible. I still make mistakes but I own up to them and make reparations when I can, if I can.
@logansrun1980 Feeling a little guilty are you? Lets see. Add some dirt, water, protein. A few chemicals. Perhaps a little hydrogen and oxygen. Mix it up and wait millions of years. Wah La! Here you are. A creature that KNOWS he isn't right inside and so blames the God he says he doesn't believe exists. Pure confusion. Why "argue" with a person who suppresses what he is? If God doesn't exist then ALL things are permissible. Why waste your time with me? Go out and enjoy the hedonistic life!
@Shiloh2rtn See, you're talking about abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution doesn't concern itself with what caused life to occur, only how lifeforms change and become more complex over time. We still don't know for sure how life started on Earth but unlike you, I have the intellectual honesty to admit that. You're using the logical fallacy of argument from personal incredulity.
@Shiloh2rtn Second, everything is not permissible if there is no god. I don't cheat, rape, murder and steal even though I'm an atheist because I find those actions morally reprehensible. A secondary note is if I commit those crimes and get caught, I go to jail. I like my liberty far too much to commit those crimes. You see there's these things called personal accountability and self-control. You'd be amazed what you can accomplish if you develop them properly.
@logansrun1980 What? You are an atheist. You don't steal? Yet you're stealing from my world view! You still refuse to provide a basis for your beliefs. I guess you're into monkey morality. Atheist's say all that exists is matter. Yet you said "You see there's these THINGS called personal accountability and self-control." How'bout you put some "accountability" and "self-control" in a jar so I can view it too. Evidently you DO believe things exist apart from the physical universe. Inconsistent!
@Shiloh2rtn Okay...let me try to explain how this works. You are making the positive claim that a god exists. I reject that claim based on the lack of evidence to support it. The onus is on YOU to provide evidence that your invisible space daddy exists.
I don't steal because I'd rather earn what I want through hard work. I don't kill unless I have to defend my life or the lives of those I care about (thankfully I haven't had to do that yet).
@Shiloh2rtn If you want something put in a jar, how about you put an empty, hermetically sealed jar in a science lab and pray to your god to fill it with clear drinking water. According to your bible, if you pray in christ's name and having faith without doubt, he will do as you have asked. Better yet, get everyone from your church to stand around an amputee and pray for god to regrow their limbs. Apparently god can cure cancer but he can't regrow limbs.
@Shiloh2rtn Just because you lack the intellectual honesty to search for answers doesn't mean the rest of us want to return to a new dark ages. Take a look at history again. The fall of Rome combined with the rise of the Catholic Church ushered in a period of widespread wars, famines, superstition, and barbarity that we're still recovering from a thousand years later. You want to talk about morality and the Bible? We can do that and I'll show you how much more moral than your god both of us are.
@logansrun1980 "how much more moral" Where DO YOU GET IT FROM? Saying secular humanism answers nothing. How can you talk about being MORE moral. You admit to wrong doing? What is your standard for good? Stop stealing from the Christian world view. You can't account for truth, logic, morality, or even how the heck humanity even got here in the first place. You tell me I'm dishonest. Wow, that stings. If I'm just biological matter motion how do fault me for what merely come NATURAL? Foolish talk!
@Shiloh2rtn Actually I can. Culturally we have standards of morality that have nothing to do with religion because they evolve over time. A hundred years ago conventional morality saw black people as second-class citizens and women as little better than that. Lynchings were considered moral, especially by white christian southerners.
@Shiloh2rtn As for how much more moral you and I are compared to your god, let me ask you a question: Do you believe that the bible is an accurate representation of your god's character and moral point of view?
@logansrun1980 I'm going to say this one-last-time. Until you can provide me a BASIS for your morality to judge me, the bible or Christianity, I WANT TO KNOW what system of morality you plan to judge it all by! Until you do this, I am done. Your hypocrisy is killing me. I suspect the reason you can't give me one is because you don't have one. Your personal sentiment doesn't fly with me.You think you're brilliant and ironically you are blinded by your belief of it. What a joke. Later.
@Shiloh2rtn I did already. Humanism is an excellent basis for secular morality. Since you want specifics, I'll give them to you: It is morally wrong to enslave others or take away their rights as humans because they believe differently than you; it is morally wrong to commit genocide because people believe differently than you, it is morally wrong to subjugate women to the will of men. It is morally wrong to commit child rape. All of these things are commanded by and advocated by your god.
@Shiloh2rtn What you fail to see Shiloh is this: there is no moral basis in your bible so I don't use it as the basis for my morality. The basis for my morality can be codified into one statement: I am a part of humanity and I am responsible for the actions that can affect humanity positively and negatively. I control what I do and what I don't do. If an authority figure tells me to kill my godchild to prove my loyalty, I'm kicking his ass for suggesting something so repugnant.
(cont) everyone who is not following Jesus Christ get the short end of the stick.
clairavance21 1 month ago
I think they were deceived, but it also has a lot to do with logic. I was deceived to believe a lot of things that aren't true, and I questioned a lot of things in my religion. I believe in God, I am a reborn Christian. I follow Jesus. God is love. If the world says it's wrong that I am willing to die for love - for love of another human being, for love for God - then I say there's something wrong with the world.God wants us all to live, love and be saved and have peace. That's why I think(cont)
clairavance21 1 month ago
Another problem with that argument is people dying for delusions is still way more plausible than a talking snake, a talking donkey, cherubs with flaming swords, seraphs, witches, demons possessing pigs, dead bodies returning to life, a woman turning into a pillar of salt, walking on water, sticks turning into snakes, a river turning into blood, a 969 year old man, a global flood, a bronze stick curing snakebite, the sun stopping, supernatural virgin birth, a picnic lunch feeding 4000...
InternetDarkLord 1 month ago
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Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. The last 2 posts were actual statements from Einstein himself who fervently denied atheism.He was an agnostic though. His position is wise, and a lesson all atheist need to think about. He admits he didn't know and neither do you or I.
89afvet 1 month ago
Einstein firmly rejected the label atheist, which he associated with certainty regarding God's nonexistence.I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. Einstein was more inclined to denigrate disbelievers than the faithful.[17] "The fanatical atheists," Einstein said in correspondence, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle.
89afvet 1 month ago
A normal person in his right mind with a gun at his head would stop the charades right then".Ok, it's all a lie we made up, don't shoot". Many people are deceived but it takes alot of faith to believe that these particular disciples were decieved. They walked with Jesus for years. They didn't just read about him hundreds of yrs later. That is a huge difference in your argument.Peace:)
89afvet 1 month ago in playlist More videos from AngieAntiTheist
Let's say you saw a man drive thru a red light. And your sure of it. And let's say that 100 other people witnessed the same thing.Then the cop comes and ask everyone what they saw. All 100 people say that the light was green.Then the cop asks you what color was the light, you know what you would say, the light was red.Doesn't matter what anyone says, you know it was red. ..My point is this,those disciples knew what they saw and it didn't matter what punishment they faced to prove that...
89afvet 1 month ago in playlist More videos from AngieAntiTheist
Nobody dies for what they know to be a lie.Nobody willingly dies for something they know is made up. Those examples you gave like Muslims who die for what they believe in is definitely true. The difference with those people you used as examples and the disciples were that the disciples were eye witnesses to what Jesus did.That is all premised on the fact that you believe in scripture.
89afvet 1 month ago in playlist More videos from AngieAntiTheist
Ok What is truth? Yeh, you haven't said anything that other atheists haven't said before. It's kinda getting old really.
dogooda12 1 month ago
I love you. Your ability to get your point across is pretty remarkable. Your examples happen to be original and legitimate, and I love you. I fucking love you. Have a great and godless day. :)
watchasirot 4 months ago
the apostles didn't die for what they believe ...they died for what they knew. Why would the apostles go to their deaths knowing that they hid the body...or knowing that Christ was still dead?? Doesn't make a lick of sense??
comms35 4 months ago
@comms35 Is there any question that the 9/11 hijackers were the most sincere believers on those planes? Someone being willing to die for beliefs =/= evidence. Try again.
Raptor302 3 months ago
@Raptor302 ..Dying for a sincere belief is totally different than dying for what you know . The 9/11 hijackers have no personal knowledge of Mohammed ...or his actions other than what is written about him. The apostles had first hand knowledge of Jesus ....his word and actions. The apostles died for their eye witness accounts......Even after ...you must admire the fact that in writing the gospels ...they never held back writing themselves in a very bad light....
comms35 3 months ago
@comms35 The principle is the same even with a "first hand account". The brain is a biochemical machine and can sincerely believe anything it wants. But when we don't even know for sure if there were any apostles at all, much less if they died for their testament, it really becomes a moot point.
Raptor302 2 months ago
@Raptor302 the principle is the same is absolute hogwash. That has to be the worst argument I have heard. The disciples were cowards, so what changed them from a coward to the founders of the christian faith, a lie?not likely. maybe they actually saw christ resurrected.that would explain the change.If you saw someone resurrected you would tell everyone too.So either they saw that or they made up the whole thing. Why would they make it up and why would they knowingly die for a lie, they wouldn't.
89afvet 1 month ago in playlist More videos from AngieAntiTheist
@89afvet You act like that's our only two options here. How do you know how the disciples died? How do you know which gospels they wrote. Considering that we are drawing from information orally communicated for the first couple of decades before finally being written down at least 40 years later after the supposed events and then passed down with revisions for the next 2000 yrs, which informatioin is actually true. I'll go with the scientific explanation, thanks.
Raptor302 1 month ago
@Raptor302 it is my opinion based on the evidence put forth that we have enough reliable information to make an intelligent choice on the disciples. that is still an act of faith but not reckless faith.of course everyone has to make up their own mind and if you don't choose to believe that's entirely your call and you have that right.Peace.
89afvet 1 month ago
@89afvet What's the difference between faith and reckless faith? Both assume their own predetermined conclusions without evidence. The fact is that I can prove christianity wrong by walking into any museum in America and showing you a T-Rex skeleton. Really hard to accept that humans sinned and need a savior when sin was in the world 64.99 million years before Adam ever got the munchies.
Raptor302 1 month ago
@Raptor302 everyone has faith in some way or another. You have faith that when you get on an airplane you will get to your destination safely.You aren't guaranteed that but you are putting your faith in the fact that the aircraft is proven safe and the pilot knows how to fly it.We all put our faith in things based on the knowledge of each particular situation. And as for your dinosaur statement, I agree with you in an old earth but with an intelligent being that started the laws of evolution.
89afvet 1 month ago
it's called the intelligent design theory which I happen to believe in.They are all theories btw, even Dawkins has admitted to that.
89afvet 1 month ago
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@89afvet "You aren't guaranteed that but you are putting your faith in the fact that the aircraft is proven safe and the pilot knows how to fly it."
That's not the same thing as faith that has absolutely no evidence. In fact it's not faith at all. I place trust in the airplane and the pilot based on prior experience and observation.
I dont understand how christians recounciled their faith with evolution. If humans aren't responsible for 'sin', what do we need to be saved from?
Raptor302 1 month ago
@Raptor302 The 9/11 hijackers were muslim extremists. All muslims read the same book. Their version of the bible. The Quran. 99.9% of muslims do not share the same beliefs that the hijackers did. So, Angie tries to hijack the muslim religion to try to make her point about religious beliefs. The hijackers did not represent muslims. The hijackers hijacked the muslim religion. The hijackers were just a bunch of radicals that were indoctrinated by anti-American terrorists, period.
lonardozee 1 month ago
@lonardozee I have no doubt and am grateful that the majority of muslims do not share the beliefs of the 9/11 hijackers. The point I was making is that just because someone dies for their beliefs, that does not make the belief automatically true. Every religion has its "martyrs" (both peaceful/passive and violent/aggressive). The veracity of any belief does not increase simply because someone, somewhere is willing to die for it.
Raptor302 1 month ago
i can understand you're point of view. i also questioned the presence of God. but through personal experiences, i have found Him to be more present than i ever would have imagined. i do not judge you, i understand that you are unable to see or feel God's love. it's called faith for a reason. if it were always easy to see, it would just be the way things are. i'm sorry that other christians can be so close-minded. i accept your point of view, i do not agree but i understand thats how you feel.
anniemae20 5 months ago
peace to you, youtuber! You say that people get decieved easily, even athiests can be decieved right? deception comes in many forms in life, it doesn't just link with religion (as many think this way) ?. Yes all humans have weaknesses, even athiests.. you agree? The point is DECEPTION IS EVEVERYWHERE! the world is full of it. Do you have HOPE?
ThePiousOne5 10 months ago
Peter, the point I've been trying to make is this: You don't get to claim the bible is a moral absolute and then say, "Except for the parts I don't agree with or find immoral". If it's a moral absolute, then the entire book is a moral absolute. If that's the case, then people like myself have a stronger code of moral ethics than your god possesses or advocates.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
Angie doesn't understand the argument. Yes, people are deceived all the time, but that's not the premise. The premise given was that of dying for a lie, KNOWING IT WAS A LIE.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
Angie, you are not getting the argument. The argument is that the disciples of Christ would not have died for a lie, knowing it was a lie! In the face of the NT narrative, the disciples would have known if Christ has not risen from the dead, and therefore may have gone along with the claims of Christ for a time in order to save face, but would never have given their lives for something THEY KNEW WAS A LIE. This is not the same as someone dying for a lie they didn't realize was a lie.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
Ladies and gentlemen, it's clear Angie has been exposed to one of the many brands of false Christianity, has anger and bitterness running through her veins, and is now proceeding to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. I actually agree with her on a number fronts regarding some of stupidity we see in the church today, but God is still a reality, He isn't going anywhere, and it's an act of insanity on her part to deny her Creator.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Once again peter, just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true. Provide evidence to back up your claim or you're just as deluded as the people Angie was raised by.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
I agree with your premise, but you must also apply the same to yourself. Certainly not everyone is right. There is right and there is wrong, unless, of course, you deny a Creator, then you have no valid, absolute basis for morality and/or spirituality.
The heavens declare the glory of God. We are talking about seemingly countless billions of galaxies and stars. And all of this came into being somehow via natural processes?
That's one big slab of baloney. God is a reality.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Your god is not the center of morality. Read your bible and you'll see he advocates slavery, misogyny, child rape, and genocide (just to name a few).
Yes, the natural world and universe can come about through natural processes. You've just committed the logical fallacy of the argument from personal incredulity: I can't wrap my head around how something this complex could have occurred, so something supernatural must have done it.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Read some science books. Put down the fairy tales. Learn about how the natural world works in reality.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
Been there, done that, and, interestingly, I have come to the exact opposite conclusion as yourself. I was at one point moving down the road to destruction, but, thankfully, my eyes were opened to both the logical and scientific reality of intelligent design. Evolution is an absurdity, and it's moral and spiritual ramifications are most disturbing.
If you're upset with religion, you have only mother nature to blame, so go kick a tree. It's really sad to hear you speak.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Evolution is not about morality or spirituality. Intelligent design isn't science, it's religion trying to pass itself off as science, hence the reason it was shot down in Kitzmiller vs Dover Area School District. Intelligent design works from the premise of irreducible complexity. So far, not one thing ID proponents have produced as irreducibly complex has stood up to scientific evaluation. In this case, you're not only wrong but horribly deluded.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Intelligent design is not scientific reality, that would be Evolution. I have a feeling that the only reason evolution is an absurdity to you is because you can't grasp the concept that humans are not above the animal kingdom but rather just one cog in the wheel. We are special only in the regard we have achieved a level of evolutionary advantages to make us one of the dominant species on this planet.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
Man is just one cog in the wheel, just a dominant species? That explains how you can abort (kill) a human being, and think nothing of it. Sad, very sad.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder See, now you're trying to change the subject rather than addressing the points I'm making. I've never been party to an abortion. I would advocate adoption in most cases. The only time I think abortion is necessary is in the case of the pregnancy putting the mother's life in danger or in cases of rape and/or incest producing a child. However there are no laws against abortion as of yet.
As for killing, if I have to kill to protect myself and the ones I love, I would do it.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
Please correct me on this, for perhaps I heard you wrong in one of your videos. Did you not have an abortion?
Yes, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, aborting is justified, but in the vast majority of instances it is neither necessary or acceptable. It is murder.
If you had an abortion because your life was truly in danger, then I apologize for the statement. If not, then my point is still valid.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder I said that I was not a part of an abortion. I'm a guy. Kinda hard for me to have an abortion. I know Angie has had an abortion which was apparently necessary for her health. Here's a good question: if you kill someone in war, do you consider that murder or justified?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Actually I do have a basis for morality outside of your god. First off, a good majority of developmental psychologists agree that the personality and moral center of a child is developed around age 8. I wasn't brought into the fold of christianity until I was 11, so my moral compass had already been set by my parents. As for a codified set of moral standards, I agree with secular humanism quite a lot and do my best to live according to those standards.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
I agree with your premise. You want evidence? Look up and behold the starts, the billions and billions of them which exist. Oh, and you might want to study the amazing design of the human eye, for that certainly did not "evolve" on its own. Intellgent design is the trumpet sound of the world in which we live.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder First off, there are numerous scientific articles and papers that have been published showing the evolution of the human eye through the fossil record. Fail again good sir. Second, the stars have been around longer than the planet we're on, but according to your bible, your god made the earth first then the stars. We have evidence (lots of it) that contradicts your bible. I would strongly suggest you put the bible down and read an actual science book.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
"Faith is believin' in things you know ain't so." -Mark Twain.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@youarelame84 Do you believe in the christian god? If so, what evidence do you have to support your belief and claim that it exists?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
Heaven was and is a think foretold to come. I'd do a video responce but this You Tube is a bad place with crazys all through it.
TheMonkeyrock77 1 year ago
Everyone gets to stand in front of Christ some day. There is no such thing as a dead unbeliever.
johnthreesixteen316 1 year ago
@johnthreesixteen316 And the evidence you have for these very bold claims is.... ?
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago 2
@AngieAntiTheist Hello again friend. If you desire, you can watch this Youtube video.......
Authentication of the Bible : Chuck Missler Part 1
The Bible is far more than meets the eye. It's the only book of its kind.
johnthreesixteen316 1 year ago
@johnthreesixteen316 No. In point of fact, it's no different than the greek myths, the Bahavad Gita, or the Quran. It's a fantasy book filled with fairy tales to keep primitive humans in check and make them feel less scared about an uncaring world.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Hello friend. It isn't the same. Everyone knows Jesus Christ is God. It's just that some people don't want to admit it.
johnthreesixteen316 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 You're obviously wrong and I'll explain it again: Jews don't recognize christ as god. Muslims don't recognize christ is god. Hindus don't recognize christ as god. Buddhists don't recognize christ is god. Atheists don't recognize any god or gods. The only person not admitting anything is you. You can't admit that you have no evidence to support your claims other than you little book of fairy tales.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 You mean the guy who tried to use a jar of peanut butter to show how evolution is invalid? Are you really going to take scriptural advice from someone that looney?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@AngieAntiTheist Hello friend. Everybody knows. There will be no excuses.
johnthreesixteen316 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 You can continue to make the same bold assertion but without evidence to support it, you're simply blowing smoke out your ass.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 Hello friend. Everyone knows Christ is God. There are only those who deny Him. We all know where we are going to go after this life is over......into His presence. People like to debate this but there is no point. Christ has built the answer to this into our being.
johnthreesixteen316 1 year ago
@johnthreesixteen316 Amen. Everyone knows about God, those that reject them are heading for hell.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 If your god sends me to hell for simply questioning his existence because sufficient evidence to support said existence didn't in fact exist, then your god is not only a prick, he's not worthy of worship.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Hi, my friend. Good question. God doesnt send people to hell, people send themselves there. The question you must ask yourself is whether you really want to find the truth about whether God exists, or do you love your sin more?
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 In point of fact, your bible does say that god will send me to hell for disbelief. Christ's own words say that the only unpardonable sin isn't suicide, but disbelief. Any god who sends me to hell for not belief in ONE deity out the the thousands that have been invented when it was within that deity's power to provide physical evidence of its existence is a morally bankrupt deity.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Who ever said suicide was an "unpardonable sin" ??? The Bible says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 That would be most christian denominations such as the Baptists and Catholics.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Wow. I have never heard that one, before.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 And let's take this a step further. Two people die the same day: one is a child who never believed in god or christ but lived a virtuous life; the other was a serial rapist who was never caught but made a deathbed conversion. The rapist goes to heaven while the moral child goes to hell. That is not morality. How you live your life is more important than whether you have blind faith in something.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Children and infants are already under the grace of God.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 Actually, they're not. If you had bothered to read your bible (which is supposed to be the inerrant word of god) it states pretty clearly in there that the only way to get to heaven is to believe in Christ and the only unforgivable sin is disbelief. Anything else you think is an attempt by you to ignore the parts of the bible that don't jive well with your own conscience. That should tell you that you are more moral than the god you worship.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
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@logansrun1980 Infants are already 'under the blood' of Jesus until they can grasp the fact that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. We are not required to submit people who are unbelievers to baptism---babies and young children are considered unbelievers. Baptism is only for those who repent and believe and want to obey the command to identify with Christ publically in that way.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 If you don't get baptized and believe blindly you go to hell, regardless of how moral you live your life. You can live a completely immoral life, not pay any consequences here on Earth, and then ascend to heaven simply because you believed. Any system that relies on blind obedience rather than how you live your life is a thoroughly immoral system. This, along with a host of other reasons, is why I say I am more moral than your god and hopefully so are you.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 I think you have been grossly misinformed. No-where does the Bible say that baptism saves you. A saved person who is not baptized goes go to heaven.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 Then why bring up baptism at all? The dogma and doctrines differ from Christian denomination to denomination; the end result is the same: disbelief is the ultimate sin. Would you lock a child in the basement and torture them FOREVER simply because they didn't believe in you? I would hope not otherwise you're just as immoral as the supposedly ultimate moral authority.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Because you are wrong in some of your beliefs, my friend.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 See you're focusing on assaulting my logic rather than answering the questions posed to you. Do you believe that disbelief is the worst thing a person can do and should be tortured forever because of it? If you had children, would you tie them up in the basement and torture them for the rest of eternity (if you could live that long) for simply not taking you at your on blind faith?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 I am doing no such thing. You are saying things about the Word of God that are false, i am correcting those things. It is not a case of worshipping God. that will not save you. No, i do not believe that disbelief is the worst thing a person can do.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 Well according to your bible, blaspheming the holy spirit (rejection or disbelief in Christ/God) is the worst thing you can do and warrants eternal punishment in hell. And once again you're proving that you haven't read your bible and know only what has been parceled out to you during your local church services. You do not possess the ability to think for yourself, only the ability to follow what others have told you is the correct path. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Hello friend. God doesn't send any children to hell. How you live your life won't save you. Humbling yourself in front of your Creator and asking for His forgiveness will. It's all about pride.
johnthreesixteen316 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 Yes, the pride of a supposedly all-powerful creator who throws you in the water and keeps a safe distance away with a life preserver saying, "If you love and believe in me, I'll give you this to save your life. Otherwise, you're gonna drown."
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@kiwichristian2009 Another thing: I'm not going to lessons on what's morally right and wrong from a book that advocates child rape, human sacrifice, slavery, and willful ignorance.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 I meant to write "I'm not going to take lessons"*
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 You need to read that book again. You are lacking a wee bit of wisdom on that topic.
johnthreesixteen316 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Exodus 21:7-11, Judges 11:29-40, 1 Kings 13:1-2. Thank you for proving you've never read your own holy book. You've lost the game. Go away now.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Hello friend. God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We choose to go there ourselves. He doesn't want anyone to perish....."The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 Hell is our choice.....eternal separation from God is the card we pick, not the card we are dealt.
johnthreesixteen316 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 John, please see the above bible verses I've provided that show just how wrong you really are. Here's a couple of more to show that jesus (if he ever existed) was a liar: Matthew 21:21-22 (surprisingly enough you're omnipotent god can't regrow limbs on amputees no matter how fervent and arduously someone prays), Matthew 18:19-20, John 14:13-14
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 Oh and before you say we can ignore the old testament: Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:17, 2 Peter 20-21, Mark.7:9-13, John 7:19. Obviously your christ was pretty adamant about following the laws of the old testament (he was a jew after all). As for what laws he speaks of, at best your christ replaced the blood sacrifice laws, not the "moral" laws that god supposedly laid down to Moses and the Jews.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 Evidently the Jews and Muslims don't recognize Christ is God. Neither do Hindus, Buddhists, or Shintoist. Perhaps you rephrase your statement to reflect reality.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 ZOMBIE!!! KILL IT!!!
firetopman 11 months ago
@johnthreesixteen316 What evidence do you have to support this claim outside of your book of fantasy stories?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
I have spoken to soldiers who came back from the war zones in Iraq knowing full well that the official versions of the events of Sept 11th 2201 were untrue.Most people will die for a lie instead of taking the chance of being called a coward or a traitor....
eoriol1955 1 year ago
Yes, some people have died for a lie, NOT KNOWING it was a lie, but nobody dies for a lie KNOWING IT IS LIE. This is one of the great proofs of the legitimacy of the Christian Gospel. The disciples did indeed give their lives for the Christian message, for they saw Jesus alive after His crucifixion, and were convinced.
Had Jesus been a hoax, the disciples would have know it, and they would never have sacrificed themselves for bogus message.
Your reasoning does not fit the facts.
peterpulpitpounder 1 year ago
@peterpulpitpounder You don't think it's at all possible for the discipples to have been deceived? You don't think it's at all possible that the gospel authors (not the disciples or even anyone who met Jesus in person) fucked up, embellished, made the story sound cooler? Really?
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist
When the facts are examined (Biblically or historically), one cannot conclude the original discipes were duped. They would have clearly known that the claims of Christ were bogus. Had he been luring, they they may have tried to save face to some degree by fabricating some story, but not unto death. These men clearly died for the truth. Like I said, people have often died for a lie, not knowing it was a lie, but nobody dies for something they know is not the truth.
peterpulpitpounder 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist
Angie,
Is it just to reject or despise someone under the premsie of misrepresentation? I'm sure you would not want to be rejected based on something said of or about you that was not true. I believe this is what you have done and are now doing to God, and He's not very pleased about it. If I could somehow extract the lies that have been poured into your mind, I am confident you would see a very different image of the God who made you.
peterpulpitpounder 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist Hello friend. That terrible comment about you being 'super ugly....' isn't true. You are beautiful.
johnthreesixteen316 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist
No, I don't believe the disciples were deceived. Like I said, they did not give their lives in ignorance. People have died for a lie, not knowing so, but nobody has ever died for something they knew was a lie. Read "More Than A Carpenter," by Josh McDowell. It is a most excellent book. Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic, and the facts reveal that He was/is indeed LORD.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder Actually, her reasoning doesn't fit with your preconceived notions. As for religious deceptions, let me give you some examples strictly from Christians: Jonestown and the Branch Davidians in Waco.
Now I bet your response will be that they weren't real christians? Ever notice that when people claiming to be christians do horrible things, the rest of the christians say they're not real christians?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
Yes, your two examples are bogus, and it proves to me you know very little about what a true Christian is. The Branch Davidians? Give me a break.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder David Koresh claimed to be the returned Christ. See the bottom portion of my response to your claim. See the part of about 'true' christians? You just made the mistake I predicted. There's no such thing as a true christian. Ted Haggert must not be a real christian because he frakked a male prostitute. You're not a true christian. You know who's the closest to being a true christian? Fred Phelps. And that's a scary motherfucker.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
You are fixated on the morally bankrupt among christendom, whose behavior is indicative of their apostate character. Even the Bible warns of such people, so this is nothing new or surprising development. Most of the pastors in my geographical location are god-fearing men, who truly love God, and who give of themselves daily for the sake and benefit of others. It is not at all as you project. Your hatred and bitterness have skewed your thinking. God still love you though.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
@peterpulpitpounder No. I'm pointing out the ones who's minds get warped by and use your religion for evil deeds. The problem is your bible is such a mangled pack of contradictions its easy to become someone like David Koresh or Fred Phelps. Read the entire book sometime and not just the passages your preacher reads on sundays.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980
You are apparently guilty of the same. David Koresh was certainly warped, and for you to say the Bible is a mangled pack of contradiction, tell me your mind is not where it shoud be either. I am well acquainted with the Bible and its content, and have been nurturing people in the Word of God for many years. Those who "truly" understand and embrace its message ALWAYS are changed for the better, for the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, etc.
peterpulpitpounder 10 months ago
Glad this thing finally left, talk about an annoying broad.
spymak7 1 year ago
@spymak7 I left? Where did I go?
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
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@AngieAntiTheist you know who the Father of lies is? Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. its funny how you point out God as deciever. has been man since sin enetered the World. Your Just as decieved as the rest of them who turned their back on God.
dougbear2004 1 year ago
"Ah, so you have a vague feeling you can't or won't provide evidence for. How utterly not shocking :) " Ok. I didn't say what I felt wasn't vague. I wasn't raised religiously, wasn't raised in a cult as you unfortunately were. I hope you live a good life, and enjoy you're life. Nothing you can say can make me become, magically, an atheist, as I cannot say anything that will make you believe. You would probably be more at home in Europe where mocking religioius beliefs is common and accepted.
TheLouLouRose 1 year ago
@TheLouLouRose I'd probably be more at home in Europe for a lot of reasons, but lack of religious influence in secular society is certainly a compelling one. I would not try to "magically" make you an atheist. However, there is absolutely something you could do to make me a believer: Provide sufficient evidence (facts) that what you believe is true. If you could demonstrate your beliefs were true, I'd not be an atheist. Very simple. I'm waiting on god to show up, till then I won't believe.
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
To be perfectly honest, when I watch your videos, you dont seem totally convinced by what you, urself, are saying. Maybe it is because you, yourself, say you were brought up with religious training. Maybe it is just me? Probably. I don't know. But, myself, when I watch your videos I think, she doesnt truly believe this.
You probably do, so I WILL apologise. I'm sorry. Im just left a little uncovinced.
I won't try to argue the theological points because Im uneducated and would not them justice
TheLouLouRose 1 year ago
@TheLouLouRose Which part are you confused by?
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist lol I could argue points but I wouldn't do them justice, not being educated. Just saying you seem uncovinced.
TheLouLouRose 1 year ago
@TheLouLouRose Ah, so you have a vague feeling you can't or won't provide evidence for. How utterly not shocking :)
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@TheLouLouRose When 1 person sees something knowone see's its called delusion. When many see it its called relgion. When somebody brings the ultimate question "why we are here"?. And you have 100's of people standing next to you seeing something allot cant. You feel like your being tricked. And you are. Some are smart and secure enough to know they are being tricked hence the"unconvinced" perception you have. My perception of the look Angie has is religious are bat shit desperate ignorat nuts.
JimmyGunXD556 1 year ago
Strapping a bomb to your chest to take others out...is not the same as being a witness (just as Jesus Did) to the evil deeds of this planet...The first apostles did not volenteer to be crucified up side down or their heads cut off or the others , who were burned at the stake or pulled apart by horses..Oh no !.... and as for those chest pack bombers...if they are to recieve 72 virgins,then i wonder how old...,because muhamad the pedophile's child bride was 6 years old.. truth is truth !
christophorM 1 year ago
@christophorM Not to be a Muslim apologist, but Aisha was actually 9 (not that 9 is an okay age for marriage or sex either.) Facts just really do help your case.
I've done another video called "UFOs and Eye Witnesses" on this point you and so many others raised. Someone claiming to have seen something, even sincerely believing that they did, is not in itself sufficient evidence to believe they are reporting it accurately or honestly.
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist the marriage contract was written when she was 6...you and i both know that there are no UFO's ...have people went on space trips in their minds that seemed real ???...i would say probably so.
christophorM 1 year ago
@christophorM And I know (to the same degree of certainty we know there aren't UFOs) that your god is just as ridiculous and just as non-existent! You're starting to get it :D
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist If my "ridiculous" God (as you say ) put you any closer to the sun you would burn up like a twig..There are no UFOs but Demons and Angels ... He created both for a very Good purpose.
christophorM 1 year ago
@christophorM Yet your god has no effect on the movements of the planets or stars. They follow their orbits with no supernatural interference, fancy that! As for the golidlocks argument you're trying to make, we EVOLVED here. You claim there are demons and angels & you have LESS evidence than UFO nutters.
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist oh right angie... a little dot exploded .. and the earth just happened to be the right distance from the sun by chance...your smarter than that theory that men/weman hide behind...I see demons in people all the time...watch the "mast delieverance video" on my page if you can???...the nice young lady in the front sitting with her mom im guessing...she looks sweet enough but has demons due to bitterness or unforgiveness or the occult?,which are major open doors.she don't have one?
christophorM 1 year ago
@christophorM Deliverance? Been there, done that! Gotta a video & everything "Demons & Deliverance." They aren't REAL!!!!! You're a fucking tool and you need to take your head outta your ass and look at reality. There is NO SUPERNATURAL ANYTHING or if they exist, they never fucking do under proper experimental conditons. No, it's just "so & and so SENSED something". It's all BULLSHIT.
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago 8
@AngieAntiTheist HAHA @ U...that same anger you had when you called me a tool ...is what killed the apostles...they were probably called worst than that..but o'well...and yes i am a tool...ISAIAH 41:15...
christophorM 1 year ago
@AngieAntiTheist there's no way you can be this hot and this smart! please tell me you're single!
chiaromontestephen 1 year ago
@chiaromontestephen A fan boy scooped me up months ago - sorry. :)
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
@christophorM Fine tuning argument. Old hat. Did you know that the earth's orbit is elliptical? We get closer to and farther from the sun all the time. The zone of viability is not as precise as you believe. Given the trillions of galaxies containing billions of stars, what do you think the odds are that no planet ever sat in the inhabitable zone? Given the odds of it not happening, do you believe a lottery winner is favored of God?
Maxdwolf 1 year ago
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@AngieAntiTheist the pedophile mohummad married aisha when she was SIX YEARS OLD and had sex with her when she was NINE YEARS OLD. In islamic countries, this is STILL PERMITTED.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@christophorM But, peter was NOT crucified upside down, neither was he in rome. There is no evidence for this or any other catholic doctrine. It is just as absurd as muslims OBEYING THE KORAN and killing Christians.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Actually the Catholic church believes they've found the resting place of St. Peter underneath the Basilica in the catacombs. However it has yet to be independently verified.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Hello, my friend. Yes, i know. I doubt they will get it independently verified. There is actually a recent discovery that his tomb has been found in Jerusalem and i believe there is more evidence that proves this right than the nonsense that he was ever in Rome.
kiwichristian2009 10 months ago
@christophorM See this is what happens when you try to equivocate that another religion is worse. Of course pedophilia is wrong. So is sacrificing your daughter as a burnt offering after promising an omniscient god to sacrifice the next thing that walked through the door. Evil deeds occur because humans are vain, short-sighted, selfish creatures as a group. We have good ones but they don't last that long in this world. They either become the problem or the problem kills them.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
I find it funny how the advertisement on the side of my screen is for a book called 'The God That Wasn't There'
oCakeable 1 year ago
I have a big problem with eyewitnesses who saw angels. If I believed in angels then perhaps I could would accept the credibility of an eyewitness who saw angels.
An eyewitness is not credible if they witness the incredible.
SamWiseGingy 1 year ago
Praying for you!
anm30 1 year ago
jonestown, waco, order of the sun temple, Nuff said
Frandysworld 1 year ago
Sure Angie, people can be deceived- happens all the time. But I would point out that when you say the disciples were deceived the SAME way a Muslim bomber is your thinking unclear. The disciples, unlike the Muslim, were in a unique position as to know first hand if Jesus really rose from the dead or not. So the real question is not were they deceived by were they lying? If so, I'd ask next- to what end? What do they possibly gain? Sorry but men in this context don't do this. There's no benefit.
Shiloh2rtn 1 year ago
@Shiloh2rtn For the answer to this complaint, see my video titled "UFOs and Eye Witnesses"
AngieAntiTheist 1 year ago
Thanks- just watched it. Interesting analogy, but I'm not exactly persuaded. You're stating now the disciples were trick by there senses. Specifically what? The empty tomb or the post resurrection appearances? According to the biblical account its not like they wanted to believe. Jesus had enemies. I wonder, were they all deceived by their sense too? I think if I wanted to shut the disciples up I would have just tossed the corpse on a cart and pushed it through the streets for all to see.
Shiloh2rtn 1 year ago
@Shiloh2rtn
It doesn't matter. The evidence for the disciples and Jesus even existing is very faulty. And even if they did exist and "saw it happen", that doesn't prove anything. I've met people who claimed to be abducted by aliens and UFO's, and demons.
It's nothing new.
maxhiner699 1 year ago
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Shiloh2rtn 1 year ago
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@maxhiner699 @maxhiner699 I find skeptics, such as yourself, often time highly amusing. To so cavalierly dismiss the entire testimony of scripture because you know people who talk about aliens demonstrates nothing more than you foolishly putting your own ignorance up on display. You said the "evidence is faulty." What evidence do you refer to and how did you come to your conclusion? I'm always up for learning something new and interesting. Please indulge yourself.
Shiloh2rtn 1 year ago
@Shiloh2rtn
The only evidence you Christians have for your beliefs is the Holy Bible, and a few short sentences by secular historians about Jesus.
And some of them were proven to be forgeries. Like Josephus.
maxhiner699 1 year ago
@maxhiner699 Could you go ahead then and quote Josephus. I should be delighted to see what you have found. I have his entire works. Show me what I may have missed.
Shiloh2rtn 1 year ago
@Shiloh2rtn First, Josephus was not a contemporary, he was born four years after christ's supposed death in 37 C.E. Second, his Testamonius mentions christ twice and these are wildly believed by historians to be embellishments by early church fathers, specifically Origen or Eusebius. Third, Josephus was a devout jew based on his own writings and writings about him. A devout Jew would consider christ a heretic just like the Sanhedrin supposedly did.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 "wildly believed" ?? you're funny! Look, I just wanted maxhiner699 to....well....Quote Josephus. He brought him, not I. What makes you think I depend on him anyway? I get my info from the gospels, not Joe.
You sure chimed in late, didn't you?
Good Day!
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn You're right, I meant widely believed. Here's the main thing: the gospels have NEVER been corroborated by contemporary historical sources. I promise you that if the city of Jerusalem was overrun with zombies like it says it was in Matthew, someone would have written it down. The oldest gospel is Mark (the ending of which is widely considered by even christian authorities to be a forgery) was around 70 C.E., almost forty years after christ's supposed death.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn 40 years in the bronze age without reliable means of preserving stories outside of the oral tradition (once again, there are no contemporary historical writings concerning this miraculous Jewish rabbi) is not what I or most historians would consider reliable accounts. I don't care what the gospels say happened, I care about what actually happened. Since the only evidence you have is the gospels, I'm not really going to put much credence in a book that has been proven patently false
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 And now that you got that off your chest....Go Away
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn Not a chance man. I've still got the privilege of speaking my mind, same as you. If you don't like the fact that I'm punching holes the size of the Titanic in your arguments, you can discontinue arguing with someone who has a greater knowledge-base than you do.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 you're a real jewel. What specific argument have a presented that you believe you've punched holes in? I've put forth none yet. Tell me, since you think you have a "privilege to speak..." making apparent your believe you have personal rights as well as A BELIEF that truth exists (since you're supposedly punching holes in "mine," where exactly did you derive your morality by which you make ANY judgments whatsoever? And how do you determine truth even exists? Pray tell, bold one.
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn Secular humanism is an excellent moral system. Ultimately, I and I alone have to shoulder the responsibility for my actions. I accept that my actions can have positive and negative effects on humanity, so I curtail those instances as much as possible. I still make mistakes but I own up to them and make reparations when I can, if I can.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 Feeling a little guilty are you? Lets see. Add some dirt, water, protein. A few chemicals. Perhaps a little hydrogen and oxygen. Mix it up and wait millions of years. Wah La! Here you are. A creature that KNOWS he isn't right inside and so blames the God he says he doesn't believe exists. Pure confusion. Why "argue" with a person who suppresses what he is? If God doesn't exist then ALL things are permissible. Why waste your time with me? Go out and enjoy the hedonistic life!
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn See, you're talking about abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution doesn't concern itself with what caused life to occur, only how lifeforms change and become more complex over time. We still don't know for sure how life started on Earth but unlike you, I have the intellectual honesty to admit that. You're using the logical fallacy of argument from personal incredulity.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn Second, everything is not permissible if there is no god. I don't cheat, rape, murder and steal even though I'm an atheist because I find those actions morally reprehensible. A secondary note is if I commit those crimes and get caught, I go to jail. I like my liberty far too much to commit those crimes. You see there's these things called personal accountability and self-control. You'd be amazed what you can accomplish if you develop them properly.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 What? You are an atheist. You don't steal? Yet you're stealing from my world view! You still refuse to provide a basis for your beliefs. I guess you're into monkey morality. Atheist's say all that exists is matter. Yet you said "You see there's these THINGS called personal accountability and self-control." How'bout you put some "accountability" and "self-control" in a jar so I can view it too. Evidently you DO believe things exist apart from the physical universe. Inconsistent!
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn Okay...let me try to explain how this works. You are making the positive claim that a god exists. I reject that claim based on the lack of evidence to support it. The onus is on YOU to provide evidence that your invisible space daddy exists.
I don't steal because I'd rather earn what I want through hard work. I don't kill unless I have to defend my life or the lives of those I care about (thankfully I haven't had to do that yet).
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn If you want something put in a jar, how about you put an empty, hermetically sealed jar in a science lab and pray to your god to fill it with clear drinking water. According to your bible, if you pray in christ's name and having faith without doubt, he will do as you have asked. Better yet, get everyone from your church to stand around an amputee and pray for god to regrow their limbs. Apparently god can cure cancer but he can't regrow limbs.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn Just because you lack the intellectual honesty to search for answers doesn't mean the rest of us want to return to a new dark ages. Take a look at history again. The fall of Rome combined with the rise of the Catholic Church ushered in a period of widespread wars, famines, superstition, and barbarity that we're still recovering from a thousand years later. You want to talk about morality and the Bible? We can do that and I'll show you how much more moral than your god both of us are.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 "how much more moral" Where DO YOU GET IT FROM? Saying secular humanism answers nothing. How can you talk about being MORE moral. You admit to wrong doing? What is your standard for good? Stop stealing from the Christian world view. You can't account for truth, logic, morality, or even how the heck humanity even got here in the first place. You tell me I'm dishonest. Wow, that stings. If I'm just biological matter motion how do fault me for what merely come NATURAL? Foolish talk!
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn Actually I can. Culturally we have standards of morality that have nothing to do with religion because they evolve over time. A hundred years ago conventional morality saw black people as second-class citizens and women as little better than that. Lynchings were considered moral, especially by white christian southerners.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
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@Shiloh2rtn As for how much more moral you and I are compared to your god, let me ask you a question: Do you believe that the bible is an accurate representation of your god's character and moral point of view?
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@logansrun1980 I'm going to say this one-last-time. Until you can provide me a BASIS for your morality to judge me, the bible or Christianity, I WANT TO KNOW what system of morality you plan to judge it all by! Until you do this, I am done. Your hypocrisy is killing me. I suspect the reason you can't give me one is because you don't have one. Your personal sentiment doesn't fly with me.You think you're brilliant and ironically you are blinded by your belief of it. What a joke. Later.
Shiloh2rtn 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn I did already. Humanism is an excellent basis for secular morality. Since you want specifics, I'll give them to you: It is morally wrong to enslave others or take away their rights as humans because they believe differently than you; it is morally wrong to commit genocide because people believe differently than you, it is morally wrong to subjugate women to the will of men. It is morally wrong to commit child rape. All of these things are commanded by and advocated by your god.
logansrun1980 10 months ago
@Shiloh2rtn What you fail to see Shiloh is this: there is no moral basis in your bible so I don't use it as the basis for my morality. The basis for my morality can be codified into one statement: I am a part of humanity and I am responsible for the actions that can affect humanity positively and negatively. I control what I do and what I don't do. If an authority figure tells me to kill my godchild to prove my loyalty, I'm kicking his ass for suggesting something so repugnant.
logansrun1980 10 months ago