2 Th is a great epistle for understanding Revelation and you articulate very wisely, i really enjoyed listening... 2 Th 2:1 - 5 reveals who son(s) of perdition , the lawlessness in verse 5 it pertains to 1Th 2:14 -- very interesting stuff
Daniel 9:27 A/c revealed who is the ‘lawless one’, until restrainer of lawlessness is moved out of the way, a/c cannot be revealed. This begins Daniels 70th Week.
As God He’s omnipresent. It’s His work of restraining that ends, not his presence on earth. No one can be saved except through the Holy Spirit. Suggesting He returns to His O.T. work. He will enter into those who accept the gospel of the Kingdom during the 7 years.
Brother, That is a huge jump to conclude that we are not able to know the time of tribulation. I agree we won't fully know who the AC is until the time and conditions stated. I don't see the reference that we can't know the time of the beginning of the tribulation. Matt 24 is your cross ref. No antimonies in the scriptures. I agree with you on most of the explaination.But not that this scrip refers not knowing the timing of the trib.
Ok this has always bothered me a little: Why is it that people believe that the Holy Spirit will be taken up with the Church? Does it not say that the 144,000 will be sealed with the Holy Spirit? So how can the Holy Spirit be the one that is 'taken out of the way'? It just doesn't compute.
@garth428 Revelation 7 says the 144,000 will have a seal placed on their foreheads ... then Revelation 14 says they have the Father's name on their foreheads. There's no mention of the Holy Spirit there.
Consider: The Holy Spirit was sent to the earth, specifically, to gather those chosen by the Father for His Son. At the Harpazzo, this task is finished ... so, having finished His work, why wouldn't the Holy Spirit return to Heaven?
@WatchAlan The seal is heavenly talk. This could simply mean thought of these people being that it is on their foreheads. No sin can deter them from Yaweh. The deceiver will have his way with the world but these ones will always think truth first and last. Out of these come the remnant. These are the sower's seed that grew amongst the thorns. Seed of Abraham going through the great Tribulation. Yah will call His people back from the enemy's land then the Evil one will openly come out in defiance
@garth428 The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead! Being God, He is Omnipresent. It is the act of restraining lawlessness that is removed from the earth; not the Spirit of God Himself.
Do you recall Yahshua saying, in John 16:7 - "I must return to the Father so the Holy Spirit can come to you" - ? In Luke 24:49 Yahshua says "I am going to send you what my Father has promised" (the Holy Spirit) ... the Holy Spirit was sent to the earth after Yahshua returned to the Father to gather the Called Out Ones (Ecclessia). Once that job is done, He returns with them.
Alan has received Biblical refutation of this current teaching from me via email. I received no reply.
call it rapture---call it harpazo: there IS an event that occurs where believers are gathered:
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."-1Corinthians 15:52
NOTICE: Comments that are argumentative but offer no Scriptural / Biblical support and/or references are considered unhelpful to others and will not be allowed on the WatchAlan Channel.
Hi Alan, i heard someone say there'll be a possibility for unbelievers who are alive during the Second Coming of Yahshua who will still be saved when they accept Him as Lord and Saviour the moment they see Him. Is this true? I can believe there will be people becoming believers after the rapture accurs, but isn't it too late to accept The Lord Yahshua as their Saviour the moment He comes for all eyes to see? I think eveyone's willing to accept Him when they see Him coming in Glory on the clouds.
No indeed.. thats why i find it a bit confused, i can imagine everyone will be accepting Him when they see Him coming on the clouds.. so in that case almost everyone will be saved, so this can't be true indeed..
Wow.. Unreal! It is sad you have to self interpret very easy and simple to understand scripture twisting it into every which way but truth, while ignoring the entire bible. Those verses are talking to you and anyone listening to the lie of the rapture theory, who hate the truth, that believers suffer tribulation. The Holy Spirit NEVER leaves! The entire bible is written about the great return of Christ and being resurrected into our spiritual immortal new beings. God Bless You...
if you think there is a pre tribulation rapture and you are using this to claim evidence of it then I believe you are very much mistaken other scripture is very clear that we are to stand , against evil and withstand the fiery darts of satan
also the fact is that we are not gathered unto Jesus until just before his feet touch the earth again - which is the end of the tribulation
revelation 6 speaks of the opening of the 6th seal and the pale horseman - this IS the tribulation
rev 6 :17 says clearly the day of HIS wrath is come
rev 7 the first verse states plainly the AFTER these things John saw the angels at the 4 corners holding back the winds that the servants of God are to be sealed with God's seal in their foreheads
this is after the anti christ and after the tribulation begins
I'm always willing to learn something new and admit that I am capable of doing so ... I only wish others would adopt that attitude.
Have you ever noticed that the word "church" never appears again after Revelation 4? There is a difference between the Church, the Saints and the Elect. The Saints suffer the Trib, but not the Church. You are referring to the Saints - the Church (the Ecclesia, clothed in white) are in Heaven during the Trib.
Don't just say I'm deceived ... let's use the Bible to show what we believe.
I have news for you: The early church fathers taught the Harpazo, Brother. Ephraim the Syrian, back in 373 AD, taught very clearly about the Harpazo.
This bit about this being a "recent doctrine," like all the arguments I've ever seen about "there is no Rapture" just falls flat on it's face. Please check out my vid titled "The Harpazo: A Video Response to hottamale02"
Humm...it could also be that the antichrist reveals himself just afte the harpazzo just happens. I rmember you said Alan theif in the night doesn't mean quietly. It means wake the neighborhood. So I'm sure the antichrist would have to try and explain what just happened away somehow and deceive people thereby revealing to be the great deceiver. He'd have to be a great deciever to explain away what just happened. How else would anyone follow him after hearing that. Just thoughts.
Excellent analysis. I imagine his "revealing" will be when he confirms the covenant with Israel.
If the translation there of the Apo is to imply the rapture, then is there no scriptural support for "the great falling away" of believers as it is widely taught? In other words, which one is it?
I believe both applications are true: The Apo (Harpazo/Rapture) is the strongest, but I also believe that the Falling Away/Apostacy is also applicable because this is also supported later in Chapter 2.
Paul clearly had a point to make that something was going to happen first, but to take that one word and say it is both, the rapture and a falling away of believers is to have your cake and eat it too. It's this kind of scriptural manipulation that continues to guide me away from the belief in a pretrib rapture. It always seems like the belief is forced through the scriptures rather than the scriptures revealing the truth. Interesting take though.
I'm just saying that I believe there will be a falling away from belief in God's Word, as we are surely seeing today with things like prayer being removed from schools, etc., etc.
However, the original Greek word there, as I point out in the vid, is "apo" (not "apostacy") ... and that refers to something being removed from the surface of an object ... i.e. the Harpazo.
2 Th is a great epistle for understanding Revelation and you articulate very wisely, i really enjoyed listening... 2 Th 2:1 - 5 reveals who son(s) of perdition , the lawlessness in verse 5 it pertains to 1Th 2:14 -- very interesting stuff
fictfact 10 months ago
Good job on 2Thess.
Daniel 9:27 A/c revealed who is the ‘lawless one’, until restrainer of lawlessness is moved out of the way, a/c cannot be revealed. This begins Daniels 70th Week.
As God He’s omnipresent. It’s His work of restraining that ends, not his presence on earth. No one can be saved except through the Holy Spirit. Suggesting He returns to His O.T. work. He will enter into those who accept the gospel of the Kingdom during the 7 years.
smeismec 1 year ago
Brother, That is a huge jump to conclude that we are not able to know the time of tribulation. I agree we won't fully know who the AC is until the time and conditions stated. I don't see the reference that we can't know the time of the beginning of the tribulation. Matt 24 is your cross ref. No antimonies in the scriptures. I agree with you on most of the explaination.But not that this scrip refers not knowing the timing of the trib.
goldmakers 1 year ago
Ok this has always bothered me a little: Why is it that people believe that the Holy Spirit will be taken up with the Church? Does it not say that the 144,000 will be sealed with the Holy Spirit? So how can the Holy Spirit be the one that is 'taken out of the way'? It just doesn't compute.
garth428 1 year ago
@garth428 Revelation 7 says the 144,000 will have a seal placed on their foreheads ... then Revelation 14 says they have the Father's name on their foreheads. There's no mention of the Holy Spirit there.
Consider: The Holy Spirit was sent to the earth, specifically, to gather those chosen by the Father for His Son. At the Harpazzo, this task is finished ... so, having finished His work, why wouldn't the Holy Spirit return to Heaven?
WatchAlan 1 year ago
@WatchAlan Yep, you're right. I should've read that better, Thanks.
garth428 1 year ago
@garth428 Well, you had a good point ... sort of.
:o)
The Holy Spirit *will* still be visiting the earth, but as He did *before* He came here to gather the Ecclessia (Church).
WatchAlan 1 year ago
@WatchAlan The seal is heavenly talk. This could simply mean thought of these people being that it is on their foreheads. No sin can deter them from Yaweh. The deceiver will have his way with the world but these ones will always think truth first and last. Out of these come the remnant. These are the sower's seed that grew amongst the thorns. Seed of Abraham going through the great Tribulation. Yah will call His people back from the enemy's land then the Evil one will openly come out in defiance
leelawbooboo 9 months ago
@garth428 The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead! Being God, He is Omnipresent. It is the act of restraining lawlessness that is removed from the earth; not the Spirit of God Himself.
smeismec 9 months ago
@smeismec You are making assumptions.
Do you recall Yahshua saying, in John 16:7 - "I must return to the Father so the Holy Spirit can come to you" - ? In Luke 24:49 Yahshua says "I am going to send you what my Father has promised" (the Holy Spirit) ... the Holy Spirit was sent to the earth after Yahshua returned to the Father to gather the Called Out Ones (Ecclessia). Once that job is done, He returns with them.
WatchAlan 9 months ago
wow.. good good teaching.. I thank God for your life.
0871368021 1 year ago
Alan has received Biblical refutation of this current teaching from me via email. I received no reply.
call it rapture---call it harpazo: there IS an event that occurs where believers are gathered:
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."-1Corinthians 15:52
TheChaoSurfer 2 years ago
I never received your email ... try using the Contact page on my web site Alan Horvath . com
WatchAlan 2 years ago
NOTICE: Comments that are argumentative but offer no Scriptural / Biblical support and/or references are considered unhelpful to others and will not be allowed on the WatchAlan Channel.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Hi Alan, i heard someone say there'll be a possibility for unbelievers who are alive during the Second Coming of Yahshua who will still be saved when they accept Him as Lord and Saviour the moment they see Him. Is this true? I can believe there will be people becoming believers after the rapture accurs, but isn't it too late to accept The Lord Yahshua as their Saviour the moment He comes for all eyes to see? I think eveyone's willing to accept Him when they see Him coming in Glory on the clouds.
just0408 2 years ago
Many will certainly be saved after the Harpazo through the saints ... and especially through the 144,000 elect, mentioned in the Book of Revelation.
As far as people being saved the moment they see Him, at the 2nd Coming, there is no Scripture I know of to support that.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
No indeed.. thats why i find it a bit confused, i can imagine everyone will be accepting Him when they see Him coming on the clouds.. so in that case almost everyone will be saved, so this can't be true indeed..
just0408 2 years ago
Wow.. Unreal! It is sad you have to self interpret very easy and simple to understand scripture twisting it into every which way but truth, while ignoring the entire bible. Those verses are talking to you and anyone listening to the lie of the rapture theory, who hate the truth, that believers suffer tribulation. The Holy Spirit NEVER leaves! The entire bible is written about the great return of Christ and being resurrected into our spiritual immortal new beings. God Bless You...
hottamale02 2 years ago
If the Holy Spirit never leaves, then how do you explain 2 Thessalonians 2:7? Who do you think it is that restrains evil?
If you can't see truth in God's own Word, what can I say?
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Are you familiar with the flood of Noah's day?
Are you familiar with the words of Christ which say, "as in the days of Noah, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be"
How about when Paul speaks about "harpazo" caught up, meaning a departure of those alive during his return.
You should study harder.
You don't have to believe everything he says but you can't avoid the clear and simple truth of God's word
seedsofgrace 2 years ago
hottamale02, mind if i share a concern you?
mhbrent2000 2 years ago
if you think there is a pre tribulation rapture and you are using this to claim evidence of it then I believe you are very much mistaken other scripture is very clear that we are to stand , against evil and withstand the fiery darts of satan
also the fact is that we are not gathered unto Jesus until just before his feet touch the earth again - which is the end of the tribulation
lonegunman101 2 years ago
We are to stand against evil and the fiery darts of satan ... sure. But that's every day -- how can you say that means we are to go through the Trib?
We are not gathered unto Jesus until just before His feet touch the earth again??? What Scripture is THAT, pray tell!?
WatchAlan 2 years ago
revelation 6 speaks of the opening of the 6th seal and the pale horseman - this IS the tribulation
rev 6 :17 says clearly the day of HIS wrath is come
rev 7 the first verse states plainly the AFTER these things John saw the angels at the 4 corners holding back the winds that the servants of God are to be sealed with God's seal in their foreheads
this is after the anti christ and after the tribulation begins
it is not cryptic , it is plainly stated
in any language you want to read it
lonegunman101 2 years ago
I'm always willing to learn something new and admit that I am capable of doing so ... I only wish others would adopt that attitude.
Have you ever noticed that the word "church" never appears again after Revelation 4? There is a difference between the Church, the Saints and the Elect. The Saints suffer the Trib, but not the Church. You are referring to the Saints - the Church (the Ecclesia, clothed in white) are in Heaven during the Trib.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
if you choose to be deceived than that is your right.
I refuse to be deceived .
the pre trib rapture is a recent doctrine and is not biblical when one studies the entire Word .
I will not argue it and I will not accept false doctrine
lonegunman101 2 years ago
Don't just say I'm deceived ... let's use the Bible to show what we believe.
I have news for you: The early church fathers taught the Harpazo, Brother. Ephraim the Syrian, back in 373 AD, taught very clearly about the Harpazo.
This bit about this being a "recent doctrine," like all the arguments I've ever seen about "there is no Rapture" just falls flat on it's face. Please check out my vid titled "The Harpazo: A Video Response to hottamale02"
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Humm...it could also be that the antichrist reveals himself just afte the harpazzo just happens. I rmember you said Alan theif in the night doesn't mean quietly. It means wake the neighborhood. So I'm sure the antichrist would have to try and explain what just happened away somehow and deceive people thereby revealing to be the great deceiver. He'd have to be a great deciever to explain away what just happened. How else would anyone follow him after hearing that. Just thoughts.
SDNihil1 2 years ago
The media may very well say that people were abducted by aliens (UFOs).
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Excellent analysis. I imagine his "revealing" will be when he confirms the covenant with Israel.
If the translation there of the Apo is to imply the rapture, then is there no scriptural support for "the great falling away" of believers as it is widely taught? In other words, which one is it?
Good video as always.
Queenster2 2 years ago
I believe both applications are true: The Apo (Harpazo/Rapture) is the strongest, but I also believe that the Falling Away/Apostacy is also applicable because this is also supported later in Chapter 2.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Paul clearly had a point to make that something was going to happen first, but to take that one word and say it is both, the rapture and a falling away of believers is to have your cake and eat it too. It's this kind of scriptural manipulation that continues to guide me away from the belief in a pretrib rapture. It always seems like the belief is forced through the scriptures rather than the scriptures revealing the truth. Interesting take though.
Queenster2 2 years ago
I'm just saying that I believe there will be a falling away from belief in God's Word, as we are surely seeing today with things like prayer being removed from schools, etc., etc.
However, the original Greek word there, as I point out in the vid, is "apo" (not "apostacy") ... and that refers to something being removed from the surface of an object ... i.e. the Harpazo.
:o)
WatchAlan 2 years ago