Zoom H4n - Mid-Side and Blumlein Recording

[jamesthegreat999]

I like your guitar playing, it makes me feel nice

[franguidry]

@jamesthegreat999 Thank you, James, that's a very kind thing to say. You seem to be having fun with the A-Team.

I have a lot more of my playing at my slack key channel, the one I'm commenting from here. Please pay a visit.

Thanks,

Fran

[trackingtim]

And also, what about these M/S microphones that are combining the cardioid and bidirectional aspects into one mic? When you export it onto a workstation, are you getting two tracks - still using the H4N - or just one? And with the H4N, this whole process of duplicating, panning hard left and right, and inverting the phase can be skipped right?

[franguidry]

@trackingtim Many mid-side mics deliver a decoded stereo pair, I suppose some might deliver the encoded mid and side signals. With the H4n, you get a decoded stereo pair, so yes, no need to process in the workstation.

This processing is generally done with plugins rather than flipping and combining tracks, and as I mentioned in my previous comment, it's easy to go back and forth if desired. This ability is one of the "tricks" mastering engineers use for fine tweaking of stereo image.

Fran

[trackingtim]

Great video, and great playing too! That is a lovely guitar. I'm a bit confused though. What is the difference between mid-side recording, and just recording on a regular stereo microphone (say you used the microphones on the H4N for example)?

It seems to me that you'd be accomplishing the same thing with either. You would have audio being picked up from left to right, as well as center; but it just seems like a mid-side approach more distinctly separates these.

[franguidry]

@trackingtim Thanks. Mid-side and X-Y are mathematically equivalent. Some folks feel that using the mid mic pointed directly at the source gives a "better" result since X-Y has each mic pointed at an angle and off-axis pickup might be compromised.

In the past, using mid-side made it possible to adjust the stereo width after recording but before decoding. With digital processing, though, it's easy to encode any stereo pair to mid-side, process them, and decode them back to stereo.

Fran

[trackingtim]

@franguidry Ah, so whether you use the actual Mid-side technique with two mics or use a simple stereo mic is up to you and is a matter of preference - but no matter which way you choose, the same outcome can be had if you decide to go the way of the stereo pair and then process them to mid-side. How would the steps to that work though?

And would you mind clarifying what you mean by "after recording but before decoding" - specifically what decoding and encoding is?

[franguidry]

@trackingtim The 500 character limit makes it impossible to go into any detail on the workings of mid-side matrixing, but you can find the topic explained all over the internet. Try my Homebrewed Music blog for some pointers, or just hit Google and Wikipedia.

In analog days there was a cost to mid side - slight added noise and/or distortion. In the digital world we can do it without artifacts, and with various free plugins it doesn't even require fancy routing or head-scratching.

Fran

[franguidry]

@trackingtim Let me talk about encoding/decoding, though. The left right stereo pair is considered decoded. The mid-side pair is considered encoded. If you listen to each pair on a conventional stereo, one sounds normal and the other is totally lopsided.

You convert a mid-side pair to a stereo pair by decoding. It's done automatically in the H4n is you choose this option. But you can use the mid-side mic array, turn off the M-S option, and deliver the mid-side encoded pair to your DAW.

Fran

[trackingtim]

Respond to this video... @franguidry And lastly (sorry, I know I have lots of questions), is there a real reason to use the actual mid-side micing technique, if the same can be done with regular XY stereo mics?

[franguidry]

@trackingtim Mid-Side can be a very convenient way to arrange a stereo pair for boom work, as in film and video. A number of makers do figure 8 capsules in a small diaphragm condenser, so both mics can be mounted in parallel inside a blimp wind screen.

I've read one article that contends that the off-axis arrangement that characterizes X-Y results in a compromise compared to the direct aim of the mid mic.

But if you don't have a figure 8 mic, no need to run out and buy one.

Fran

[LyricalAssassin]

if I did this using a DAW, I´d have to copy the side-mic line and reverse the copied phase right?

[homebrewedmusic]

@LyricalAssassin Howdy.

The traditional formula calls for duplicating the side and the middle. As you say, the middle is flipped in one copy, then a pair of side and middle form the left channel, the other (flipped pair) is combined to create the right channel.

Of course, your solution works too. Adjusting the relative level of the mid and two sides as they are combined into stereo changes the apparent width.

When I do mid-side in REAPER I usually use a plugin, though.

Fran

[homebrewedmusic]

@homebrewedmusic Dummy, it's the SIDE that's flipped in phase, NOT the MIDDLE. I sure wish I could edit my comments (grin).

Fran

[LyricalAssassin]

@homebrewedmusic that was self-evident and I also overread, so dont worry :-D thanks for the vst plugin, its pretty similar to what I use but much more direct! thanks

[LyricalAssassin]

@homebrewedmusic thanks! what plugin is that? vst? does it do what you explained at first?... sound interesting!

[homebrewedmusic]

@LyricalAssassin I usually use the Voxengo MSED plugin, which is a freebie you can find easily in Google. It comes in VST and AU. Many folks don't realize that you can encode a conventional stereo track, adjust the mid-side blend, apply effects separately to the mid and side, then decode back to stereo.

Fran

[ChemoRawk]

Oh No! not the bubble wrap again! dn_nb

[popitn2nd]

I think i know what your saying now. The internal wiring was reversed that result in reverse stereo image. I never thought rode would have this kind of problem in thier product.

[popitn2nd]

Yes it does. The result for the built in mic is different than the attache rode stereo mic.

[homebrewedmusic]

@popitn2nd OK, that helps. Is it possible to mount the mic upside down? If so, that would reverse the stereo image.

Fran

[popitn2nd]

I thought you might have an answer to my question. I bought the RODE Stereo mic for My canon vixia HF11 camcorder. I did some test on this mic by catching the sound source on left, center, right. Just like you have demostrated in your video with bubbles wrap. But my result was diffrent. The sound recorded on the right was heard on the left side of my speakers. Do you think that I have bought a bad mic? by the way this mic is X/Y cardioid condenser.

[homebrewedmusic]

@popitn2nd Does your Vixia have stereo audio built-in? Have you done a similar test with the built-in mic? Have you done any other testing of stereo playback?

Fran

[kedavis]

Great tutorial... this is helping me learn about the technique.

[homebrewedmusic]

@kedavis I'm glad to hear you found the clip useful. Mid Side recording has become one of my favorite ways to record.

Fran

[fre3d0m]

Hey...... nice video....

Is it possible to use the Zoom H4n as a mid microphone and get a side figure 8 microphone to achieve Mid-Side technique?

Will the M-S decoder still work its magic?

[vZamfir]

i hear lots of hiss in my zoom h4n, is that damaged?

[franguidry]

@vZamfir Sorry, I can't diagnose your problem because I have no way of knowing what you consider a lot of hiss. The H4n is noisier than some other systems, quieter than some others. What are you comparing to?

Fran

[rodsteel101]

Thanks for the upload ... But i have to say that your room did not help with the mid-side test though.. Maybe you should have used the mid microphone in cardioid mode instead . You could hear the stereo effect with close miking ( as with the guitar) and with HF rustling of the wrap but the bubble wrap pops sounded very much centered/leaning to the right . But thanks again for the demonstrations and info .

[franguidry]

@rodsteel101 I agree that the bubble-pop did not work. I'm a terrible demo-er I'm afraid. The pops were so loud that they clipped both channels, so the stereo info was trashed by the clipping.

Fran

[4002inch]

Hello homebrewedmusic , thank you for your video. I have a question:

Do you feel a diference between this two mics? I have the Rode NT2A and the Rode NT1A. NT2A have a hot sound, the NTA have a sharp and cold sound.

What about the NT2000? Does this mic have the same sound of the NT2A?

[franguidry]

@4002inch You can directly compare the two mics by listening to the Blumlein recording. The NT2a is on one side, the NT2000 is on the other. To me they sound quite similar, but each of us hears things differently.

Fran

[MauroPavanelli]

great video, wonderful playing and useful information! thanks a lot!

[arieldickman]

thank you!

do you consider the H4N as a well professional studio recorder, for CD's production?

[franguidry]

@arieldickman I would say that you _could_ produce a CD using the H4n, especially if it was solo acoustic guitar. But you could achieve a slightly better quality (lower self-noise) with a computer interface like an Echo Audiofire 2 and a pair of good mics. This would cost more and be a bit more complicated, of course.

Also, the most important part of your recording chain might well be the monitors. If you can't hear what you're doing, you can't improve it.

Fran

[arieldickman]

@franguidry many thanks!

what do you think about Lexicon Alpha?

[franguidry]

@arieldickman Sorry, I've never used that device so I have no opinion on it.

Fran

[arieldickman]

@franguidry well I don't hear any background noise..

[arieldickman]

thank you!

do you consider the H4N as a well professional studio recorder, for CD's production?

[pimpleburger]

That was a pleasure to watch. Nice playing and great appreciation of the history of Blumlein and Mid-Side mic placement. I just read a great magazine article by Mike Stavrou in Audio Technology magazine (published in Australia) on Mid-Side technique that might interest you. He points out that an omni mic as the Mid mic will give stronger coverage for the sum and difference processing which gives more stereo information as an end result. It's a great read -issue 75 July 2010. Have a nice day.

[franguidry]

@pimpleburger Thanks for the tip, sounds like a lovely article but I can't figure out any way to access it. I've seen another reference that discussed the impact of different M mics but I don't know if I can find it again. I'll certainly try an omni mid in some test recordings, though.

Fran

[23Prospero37]

Thanks for the demo. Been researching mics for my film. and the zoom seems to be a good mic for adapting as a boom mic.

[franguidry]

@23Prospero37 The H4n gets a lot of attention in the indie film world. It's good to have the flexibility of OK internal and high quality external mics.

Your boom mic would normally be mono, though, right?

Fran

[TheSoundclip]

Very well made, and very informative!

I havn´t done much in MS myself, but quiet a bit in XY. If one´s interrest is stereorecording and mic configurations for that, I can recoment a booklet (in pdf format) from DPA (a danish firm that produces high quality mic´s, former known as B & K)

Rgds.

Lars

[TheSoundclip]

Can´t put up a direct link, but goto dpamicrophones and the Microphone University right side and the Stereo Recording with DPA Microphones download booklet.

Rgds.

Lars

[franguidry]

@TheSoundclip Thanks, Lars. I've referred to those pages many times. I have some DPAs as well, although mine are the lowest cost units they make, the miniature 4061s.

Fran

[wondnaereh]

You play nice, makes me miss Knotts Berry Farm. How come you don't use the built in mics? Are they bad?

[homebrewedmusic]

I'm not sure what the Knotts Berry Farm reference means. I've never been there.

I'm demonstrating the use of figure 8 mics. The built-in mics are cardioid.

These Rode mics are actually superior to the built-ins, after all they cost more than the H4n in its entirety.

Fran

[wondnaereh]

Why does it all sound like it's coming from the middle? Why is the separation all blended so much?

[homebrewedmusic]

I hear pretty decent left right separation during the bubble wrap test in my headphones. This is, after all, a live recording rather than one made up of mixed mono sources that are panned by the mixing engineer. This is the sound in the actual room.

And the guitar comes from the middle because the guitar is positioned in the middle!! Isn't that clear from looking at the video?

Fran

[wondnaereh]

Why do you have those mics like that? Why is it set up that way? Why is that one upside down? What are those headphones doing hanging there in the background like that for?

[Sejudo]

Thank you so much, very helpful and by the way I enjoy the guitar song. Great video. Blessings. Oswaldo

[outithewoods]

Great for ambisonic playback. 5/5

[awisp0fsm0ke]

studying an honors degree in audio and found this very informative, thank you for your efforts

[homebrewedmusic]

Thanks very much for the comment. Is Blumlein mentioned in the course work?

Fran

[demofactory]

Thanks for posting this great video. I like your guitar playing too. It's frustrating sometimes having to wade through lower quality vids, but when you finally get here..

Ahhhhhhh.

[Jono2415]

Seriously, sound engineering courses need to be updated - with YouTube videos. This video has made it so so so easy to understand, wish I had this video this watch 2 years ago!

[franguidry]

Thanks for the comment. I plan to do some more videos that address basic use of mic patterns. It's a very interesting topic that seems to generate a lot of bad information.

Fran

[fearfultom]

thanks for taking the the time to explain all that. I juist got the H4N for the same thing your are using it for. Solo fingerstyle. I love your tune. I have been playing slack key for some time now and just love it.

[SporkThis]

I have used the H4N without additional mics to do multiple live recordings. It rocks. The only downfall comes from how the room itself is 'tuned' because the device will capture the exact room sound. I can never account for a clueless sound man... ;-)

[homebrewedmusic]

When you record the PA you're certainly stuck with what the Front of House person offers you.

Fran

[thanosbikos]

Thank you very much for this very helpful video! I've just ordered my h4n and this info will come very handy when I get my hands on it.

[homebrewedmusic]

So have you tried any M/S recording with the H4n?

Fran

[brybabe22]

@thanosbikos Does yours have a "hiss" when you record? I got mine yesterday, and if I take the audio off the SD Card and play it in adobe audition, there is a distinct hiss?

[thanosbikos]

Hello brybabe22!

I sometimes got a hiss at a very low level but it was easy remove. Also, when I put the recording in a mix I didn't have to remove the hiss at all, it was inaudible in combination with the other sounds.

Maybe the source you recorded was too quiet and you had to set the mic level almost to 100%? In that case the hiss would probably start to become disturbing. If you tell me what kind of material you record, maybe we can work out a solution :-)

[remektek]

Thank you for a most informative demo. As I am not an audio engineer, this was my 1st introduction to M-S recording. Thanks again.

[homebrewedmusic]

The gentleman who figured all this stuff out, Alan Blumlein, was quite the engineering genius. I was fascinated to read about all the different areas he excelled in.

Fran

[moliba11]

thank's it's interesting

did you use an amp or is it directly put in the h4 ?

[franguidry]

Directly into the H4n.

Fran

[moliba11]

oh thank you

sound's very good

i think i'll buy one !

[joshuarlyon]

What kind of accessories did you use to adapt your mic stand to accomodate that setup? I'd like to be able to do this without using two stands...

[homebrewedmusic]

I used an On-Stage stands Posi-Lock Clutch, a Sabra Som T Mount with a custom spacer bar, and the Rode shock mounts on the two mics.

The On-Stage Posi-lock parts are quite handy.

Fran

[duncaninchina]

I recently bought a Rode shotgun mic and blimp...and was impressed by the quality...I'm about to get a Zoom H4n recorder. Thank you for your very interesting video. You have inspired me!

[checkother]

This is excellent. Thanks so much for the Blumlein info, especially.

[romixsm]

Thank you!

Is it possible to make mid-side recording using builtin mics as bedirectional and external mic as side?

[homebrewedmusic]

Interesting question. It would not be mathematically pure mid-side but you might find some of the benefits. All you can do is try, right?

Fran

[bensgoldberg]

Since the built in Microphones are in X/Y stereo, you would not be able to generate a mid-side matrix by adding another microphone. Why would you want to anyway, your already recording in stereo.

[lute760]

Yeah,and you can also scare off would be car jackers by pointing the H4n at them in a threatening manner!

[crguti]

I am looking for a portable audio recorder and I was waiting for Tascam DR-100. However, based on some opinions in Brad Linder's blog, Tascam dr-100 is not as good as Zoom H4n.

I am also interested in Mid -Side recording (i didn't know zoom h4n has that feature...wow). My question is: The Mid-Side decoding is for recording or for monitoring? Are you able to record the Mid-Side signals and monitoring as Left and Right?

Thanks. very interesting your review.

[homebrewedmusic]

The Mid-Side recording feature affects both the monitored and the recorded signal. If you prefer to transfer the undecoded signal to your computer you'll also give up the decoded monitoring.

It would be great to have an option for decoded monitoring only, but we didn't get that, at least not in this software release.

[tromnektromnek]

That's quite unfortunate since one of the major benefits of M-S recording is the ability to adjust and experiment with the separation of right and left channels after recording.

I just ordered an H4n anyway. It looks really handy for a variety of recording situations.

[franguidry]

Well, as it turns out, with digital audio workstations it's a snap to go in and out of M+S format in post production. I still like M+S just because it's easy to see where the mics are being aimed (grin).

Fran

[BjerkeRobin]

you can amually encode and decode between M-S and L-R by using the formulae and setting up chanels that add the tracks together in the required way. Which means you can take a L-R, convert to MS, do whatever processing you wish and then convert it back to LR.

[kittelsb]

When recording in the in the 4 track mode are inputs 1 and 2 always combined into a single stereo track or can you have the H4n save them on separate mono tracks?

[homebrewedmusic]

Thanks for the comment. The NT2a can often be found at a good price on Ebay. There are a couple of large diaphragm switchable mics that get good comments and cost even less than a used Rode NT2a, but I haven't tried them myself. Check out the CAD M179, for instance.

[Cristoby]

Thanks for the class. I have the H4n but not the fancy mics yet. They seem like a worthy addition.