BBC News - Catalan vote tests region's sense of independence

[swiv2d]

so why the need for a new country or state, why not enjoy the ride with the rest of the country?

[fillfucker]

WE SHALL DIE BEFORE THAN YIELD,FUCK SPAIN

[daeho2]

spain is not even a real country anyway

[martaboldu]

CATALONIA IS NOT SPAIN!

[alexbenifaio]

They were 3 cats,no are too people.. Catalunya were Spain,is Spain,and always be Spain

Visca Catalunya,and VIVA ESPAÑA!

What are you think of the independence of Scotland?

Catalunya is a region of Spain,and is a nation,yes... But Spain is a nation of nations,and Catalonia is one of this nations ;)

[panzerspahwagen]

@alexbenifaio Poland is Germany?No, It's Greece a region or part of Turkey?No, is Tibet a region or a part of China?No. The case of Catalonia it's the same. Since 1714 the Catalan sovereignty is abolished because the Kingdom of Castilla annexed the territories of Catalonia. Since that moment, the Spanish government wanted to eliminate or rather exterminate the Catalan culture and language.Spain only "loves" Catalonia because is the autonomy that more money give and because there is the industry.

[alexbenifaio]

@panzerspahwagen Hahahahahaha NOOOOO! :) In 1492,all the world says Spain to talk about the actual Spain(and part of Portugal) And same kings of Aragon,and Castilla talk about SPAIN in 1200,1100,1000... Spain is one of the countries more old of Europe ;) No,Madrid is the autonomy that more money give,no Catalonia ;) Why they have the industry? Because before all the money went to Catalonia,Vasc Country and Madrid... Andalucia's people give money to Catalonia,money and more people to work ;)

[odiossea]

@alexbenifaio What happened in XXth , Xth or XIVth century before Christ is very interesting, but absolutely unuseful on international legality, as the International Court of Justice sentenced. We're now talking about democracy, what is the will of the citizens of Catalonia today.

It's just about democracy, no need to go so many centuries back.

[alexbenifaio]

@odiossea Okey perfect,but if you talk about the history of Catalonia,you have to say the real history...no your history ;)

[odiossea]

@alexbenifaio What I mean is we both must probably have different views about the same history, like arabs and jews have, greek and turkish, etc. But that's absolutely not significative, even if we agreed.

Only the democratic choice of the People of Catalonia must determinate its future. Not ancient wars and royal weddings, not the blood of the soldiers and the sperm of emperors.

I insist: we talk about democracy.

[alexbenifaio]

@odiossea Yes,but the history is the history.If are a book that was written in 1200 talking about Spain and Catalonia(for example)... Only are 1 history,You dislike?I'm sorry ;)

Yes,if the people of Catalonia talk you'd be surprised ;) You think that aaaall the people of Catalonia want the independence? xDDD When they have the fiscal pact,the independence movement will be more small,you will see ;) If now with the "fiscal spoliation" no are 50% of people in catalonia that want independence...

[panzerspahwagen]

@alexbenifaio Another thing, they didn't paid the industries of Catalonia, Euskadi or Madrid because all the money that the people of Andalusia or Extremadura paid was to the owners of the land, all the rich people (usually, noble people).

Learn about history and you would know that Catalonia it's no Spain.

[alexbenifaio]

@odiossea And,sorry for my english..I talk spanish,catalan,and a few of English..but a few :P

[odiossea]

@alexbenifaio Your English is good enough, don't worry. Cheers to Benifaió and Ribera Baixa.

[alexbenifaio]

@odiossea Hey,hey..Benifaio is Ribera Alta :P Hahahaha :)

Greeting friend andorran :)

[odiossea]

@alexbenifaio Ribera Alta, so right.

[alexbenifaio]

@panzerspahwagen Because before,all the people of Andalucia,Extremadura and Murcia were forced to go to work in Catalonia,Vasc Country,Madrid,Valencia..I know because my grandparents were forced to go to Valencia to work there,but his brothers go to Catalonia,they WERE FORCED TO WORK IN THE INDRUSTRIES THAT THEY PAID! ;)

[panzerspahwagen]

@alexbenifaio What that they were forced to move to Catalonia, Esukadi or Madrid? What did you said? They moved voluntarily because they can't live in the poorly cultivated lands (becuase the rich owners didn't wanted to modernize the technologies). It could be said that they were forced to move to another place because in their natal land they couldn't live, but they didn't were forced with a pistol by the Catalans or basques.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@alexbenifaio the UK should remain united but any of its constiuent countries have, as catalonia, the right of self determination.

[Popotao]

Vizca Catalunya Lliure!

Viva a Portugaliza!

Long live Catalonia and Portugalicia!!

[californiasunking]

I would only support independence for Catalunya as long as they don't pull a "Franco" and try to suppress the Spanish language or anything related to Spain. Madrid is controlled by conservatives who wish to have as much control over everything as possible. And because Catalunya is far more liberal than Madrid, and because it happens to generate more income than other parts of Spain, naturally the conservatives will want to overtax and suppress Catalunya from having more power.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@californiasunking im catalan myself, independentist, pancatalanist ( that means that i consider as catalonia all catalan speaking lands, but i would not block an indepencependence of the Catalan autonomous community) and what i think is that spanish language should have no officiality but it should be respected and not tryed to suppress, what do you think? because sometimes i think about paying them with the same money but then i think that catalans are more intelligent than that.

[akosigundam]

Good luck with convincing the Valencians and Balears to join your foray.

[GaeilgeSpraoi]

@Mog087 And for Euskadi, the Basque Country! I'm neither Basque nor Catalonian, but Irish and understand all too well the situation both wonderful places face. Just under 100 years ago Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom and the 6 counties of the North still are. Also my country was used as a gigantic farm with cheap labour and most of the food was shipped over to the UK. I study in Bilbao and empathise with how the Basques must feel here and thus likewise for you guys.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@GaeilgeSpraoi i still want the UK to remain united but i'm rethinking my position about NI ;) ( we talked months ago :D)

[GaeilgeSpraoi]

@breizhcatalonia1993 If the UK should remain united so then should Spain! Sorry but your arguments are weak, inconsistent and hypocritical. Well I hope you do rethink your position and realise that what Irish nationalists want isn't so different than what Catalan Nationalists want. For us our six counties back!

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@GaeilgeSpraoi That's what i am making, rethinking my position of Northern Ireland ;)

PD: do you think that, letting apart Northern Ireland, the UK should disband? and as i told you i have no problem in scotland becoming independent, or wales, if they are majority, let them make it, just that is not my preference.

PD: There are also a lot of Spanish that support the reunification of NI and at the same time say: "Fucking Catalans" "Puta Catalunya" "Gibraltar Español" and i hope you like

[GaeilgeSpraoi]

@breizhcatalonia1993 Well I think the UK is a false construction. Why do people say England to mean the UK or Britain and seem to forget completely about Scotland and Wales and their culture and languages which are different? England is just one part of Britain in that respect. Most countries are a fares because cultural, linguistic and tribal borders tend to be completely different. Look at France for example.. I'm a linguist so for me, all of this is very interesting! Particularly the Basques!

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@GaeilgeSpraoi yeah well but in most of it it was not maked by force like Spain, yeah, that pisses me up, in spain people always says "England" instead of UK, now is a little better since spanish people can speak english or french and they discovered watching eurovision ( of which i am a die hard fan) that the whole country was named UK. About Scotland i think the same of Ireland, they had lost all its interest in preserve Gaidhlig and in fact i think Scotland was the first country to declare

[breizhcatalonia1993]

english as official language. Yeah, but in some of that countries ( Italy for example) in the areas with own language the feeling of independentism is very low (except in südtirol-trentino where they want to unite to austria , quite similar to NI) because italy has always had a policy of not-officialty-but-not-repress­ion of native languages of italy that are not italian, that is saw in that no one in italy speaks Italian as first language in Italy, just that language is the official one becau

[breizhcatalonia1993]

because it was created for make the people of the different regions to understand between themselves,when i was in the Veneto no one except the people in the restaurants speaked italian, they all speaked veneto language, in Friuli they speak Friulian or Slovenian as first language. in Aosta they speak French or Franco Provençal and First language, the Island of Sicily speaks sicilian, sardinia speak sardinian and catalan ( in a city that is part of italy and sardinia but that they should give to

[breizhcatalonia1993]

catalonia if we get independent. But i think that, letting NI apart, you Irish guys are quite anti-british.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

their support ;) you want NI back and you seem to be pro-spanish but respecting the rights of catalans and basques to separate, that's exactly the same what i feel about scotland, wales, and NI. Also i see a very weak interest of Irish (Rep) for speak their language and stop to speak english, i think that first language of Ireland should be Irish. At the moment the party that wants reunification with Ireland that i like more is the SDLP, what do you think?

[GaeilgeSpraoi]

@breizhcatalonia1993 Well I wouldn't identify as Pro-Spanish or anti-Spanish, but I respect the right of the Catalans and the Basques to self-determination. Well the main political Party would be Sinn Féin (Irish for 'Ourselves') and they'd push the concept of a United Ireland. As for language, the Catalans may have been oppressed for a while but nothing compared to the Irish. Yes the language should be Gaeilge but language revitalisation is never an easy process with English being so dominant

[TheVigataquantic]

Insults, scorn, treating arrogance this is the brutal way that Spain treat all that they consider their properties. Last 300 years they try by all the means to make us, Catalans, disappear. No region in Europe has to experience the drainage of our economic resources as Catalonia is suffering, the aggression against the language, the hate we suffer from Spain. An old European nation is going sadly to disappear.

[angelsss1011]

CATALONIA IS NOT SPAIN

[robertojuanvi]

I'm sorry but Catalonia is a region, not a country. They haven't country's story. Catalans are selfish and crazy.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@robertojuanvi what is for you a country?

[robertojuanvi]

I'm sorry but catalonia is a region, not a nation. They haven't story of free country. They are crazy and selfish.

[bylysi]

I support anybody wanting legitimate rights and freedoms. I hate politics all around but i support the wish of a people to be free and always will. The Catalans supported Kosovo independence so we will repay the debt.

[odiossea]

Interesting article about Catalonia's process of independence to be published the 23th of November on The New York Times, "Battle Lines Drawn in Catalonia".

[MrAmerica406]

why would you want to break away from your country? if you want a new government, start a revolution in espana, all across spain and establish a new government

[Chronomatrix]

@MrAmerica406 It's not a problem for the whole country, it's a problem between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. Catalonia has a fiscal deficit of 22.000 milions of €, economically we could say Spain is stealing a lot of money from Catalonia, every day we are giving 60 milions of € to the rest of Spain and not receiving anything as in exchange. The economical problem is already a big reason to want the independence from Spain, but there's also another reason, we don't feel spanish.

[MrAmerica406]

@Chronomatrix well if the majority wants independence you should break way, if not stick to spain

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@MrAmerica406 because spain is not our country

PD: no one in spain wants a republic now ;)

[mallorcaisnotspain]

freedom catalan countries!!!!

The spanish people hate catalan speakers!

[olikf]

Catalonia towards independence. The next state in Europe.

Barça-fans.

[jusimiki]

42 percent agree with the independence is not a radical minority, not true that the majority in Catalonia is Spanish speaking, if that happens, it is rather in the metropolitan area of Barcelona, but Catalonia is more than  Barcelona, Catalonia is a nation ancient ... Catalonia is an oppressed nation, long live independent Catalonia

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@jusimiki sure, most of catalonia is catalan speaking but the procent of spanish speaking on the AMB makes the balance going in favour of spanish.

[jusimiki]

@breizhcatalonia1993 That's just a statistic ... in capitals, and now, with the amount of immigration in recent years (over a million and a half) ... but not the reality of the country ... I do not think the foreigners are those who must make the linguistic tendencies of a nation ... no?

Independencia ja!!!!!..... Visca Catalunya....

[lomarrako]

Catalonia. The next and great state in europe.

[wmmvb]

Spanish people argue that "most people in Catalonia do not support independence".The funny thing is that Spaniards seem to know the answer without first having asked the question.Catalan government has always been nationalist,and there's an independentist party in the current government.It's true that many Catalan nationalists have believed so far in a federal Spanish state, but these nationalists are turning to independentism after noticing that Spain doesn't want federalism,but absolutism.

[catalunyacomtatgran]

Catalunya-Cataluña-Catalonia-C­atalogne-แคว้นคาเทโลเนีย-Catal­onien-Katalonien-Catalogna-카탈루­냐지방-Katalunio-カタルーニャ州-Catalunh­a-Каталония-加泰罗尼亚-کاتالونون

[jumabo08]

The majority of catalans speak and support Spain. Only a small and radical minority, often asociated with the far left claim independence for cataluña.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@jumabo08 Learn English.

[abdbaye]

Free Catalonia!!*!!

Spanish is a fascist state!

[jumabo08]

@abdbaye you are crazy

[abdbaye]

@jumabo08 Thanks. I doubt that you know something about Catalonia. ;)

!!*!!

[UrmiyeKurd]

visca Catalunya

[zazairanic]

What was the thinking behind this "mock" referendum? Was it a political message?

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@zazairanic it was a non-binding referendum to let catalan people say yes or no to the independence of catalonia, and a political message because support for independence of catalonia has risen from 18% to 45% since 2010 ( i will explain why in a private message, because it is so long). spanish constitution threatens with use the army with any nation that tries to secede of spain.

[keoni1985]

the best moment is when they're singing in the bar "lo lo lo, lo lo lo lo lo... que viva españa!"

[freecatalonia46]

@keoni1985 No. They was singing "...I puta Espanya", ("fucking Spain"). //*//

[keoni1985]

@freecatalonia46 they WERE, if you do not mind

[freecatalonia46]

@keoni1985 Jaja! Yes, they WERE. I'm sorry.

[25500]

because they did some statistics about it I guess two years ago and serveral other times before, and this was the result.

[odiossea]

@25500 You say it's not worth to do a referendum because opinion polls already told us the result. Applying the same rule, any country would call an election, it would be enough with poll opinions and stadistics. Fortunately that's not the general case in democratic countries. The ONLY way for knowing exactly whether citizens of Catalonia want it to be a state or not is voting: one person, one vote.

BTW, there is more polls pointing about 40% in favor and 40% againts.

[macariogarciacalvo]

If Spain is a shit Cataluña is a piece of shit.

[AMADIS85]

By the way Madrid doubles Cataluña on taxes contribution to the central government....just some facts..

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@AMADIS85 hah, because madrid is the C.A which holds the capital of state.

[25500]

This is just a stupid issue.

Catalunya is totally related with the rest of the country. Around 30% of the catalans would like to be independent but since we're living in a democracy, the majority has the power to choose, so it is not just up to these 30 % of the catalans to decide.

[odiossea]

@25500 How do you know it's about 30%?

[emdiuenmaxi]

@25500 exactly, how the fuck do you know its 30%? You think this is stupid? Is not up to croatians to tell catalans who they are.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@25500 we have worked for this to rise and we had our fruits :D :D

[mrknknk11]

in english, in english ¬ ¬

Not all in this world is english, there are a lot of languages, a lot of cultures, not just the anglosaxon culture.

other languages have the same right or more right to exist, that is something that globalization will not be able to destroy.

[mptozer]

Odiossea, I don't think it's fair to put up a video and then prohibit people from commenting on it in whatever language they want. THAT'S not polite. Who are you, Franco?

-an Australian living in Catalonia.

Odissea, no crec que sigui just pujar una vídeo i després prohibir que la gent faci comentaris en la llengua que vulgui. Això és maleducat. Qui penses que ets, en Franco?

-Un australià qui viu a Catalunya.

[odiossea]

Thanks for your opinion. I want it to be an international forum. There are already many forums about it in Catalan, and some in Spanish. I think it's important to let the world know about the catalan matter directly, not by reporters or translators; to read those who are againts independence and those who are in favor of. I just beg people to make a little effort and express whatever they want in English.

[mptozer]

Ok. I understand. But careful with your words please. "Make a little effort"??? Not everyone speaks English. Nor should they have to. Nobody has officially announced English as the official international language. It's not about effort. Nevertheless, I appreciate your efforts to spread the information to English speaking people. Thanks for the video.

[temax]

@mptozer u are damn right! Nationalism is just that: franco, catalan separatists...all the same ideology.

[odiossea]

@temax Catalan independentism is not a concrete ideology. It's a transverse fact, there are independentist among voters of practically every party in Catalonia, from PP (unionist right-wing party) to ERC (independentist left-wing). Among independentist there must be fascist, communist, liberal, christian-democrats, atheist, social-democrats. And we could say the same about unionist.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@mptozer més que l'idioma prohibeix els insults :D :D

[odiossea]

Democracy should be never taken as a joke. Older than 16 were allowed to vote, and also immigrants, and DESPITE (despite, not still: it made decrease participation in about 10 points) it, 27'4% of people went 2 vote, and 95% of them voted YES. In a binding referendum it will b doubled. Nice 2 know u're glad, unionist use to be very scared about asking the people of Catalonia. Will you be also glad when binding referendum will b done, and we finally know what catalans want? I'm almost sure u will

[temax]

@odiossea Yeah, you guys let inmigrants vote for your illegal referendum, ant then you don´t allow them to register in Vic and other catalan cities to be able to receibe health care.

Catalan nationalism = spanish nationalism = fascism

[odiossea]

The referendum is not being official, but of course it's absolutelly legal. By now the laws (including those which regulate the register you mean) applyied in Catalonia are spanish laws. Even the statute of autonomy is a spanish organic law. By the way, the independence is a pragmatic issue;more hospitals, roads, grants, flights, power of decididing about important matters for the citizens of Catalonia, including catalan nationalist, spanish nationalist, romanian nationalist, no-nationalist, etc

[odiossea]

This forum has vocation to be international. Please, post messages only in English. Messages written in Spanish or other local languages will be deleted. Let everybody to understand. Let's be polite.

[odiossea]

Please, talk in English, let everybody to understand. Let's be polite.

[PorkoRoso]

Lo siento, no sabia que en esta noticia los españoles no teniamos derecho a opinar. Sobre todo tratandose de España.

Not everyone around the world can speak English. I hope you know.

If you are talking about Spain, please talk in Spanish. Be polite.

[odiossea]

Of course everybody has right to express his opinion, I just beg to do it in English.

[espardenyacatalana]

bbc go up!

2012 next state in europe!

visca catalunya lliure!

freedom for catalonia!

[odiossea]

95% for YES, 5% for NO [Participation rate: 27'4%]

That's what is proved.

[Perijol]

@Fabbech you are lying my friend.....Spain was 1000 years before Catalonia at least......don´t forget, Catalonia was never a indepentend country and the very largest part of its people never want to be ! Nor YET or in the PAST.....PROVED !

[Perijol]

Only 27% participation in the very MOST separatistic zones of the whole catalonia...the far greates part of the catalans want to be spaniards and love Spain, PROVED !........13 D catalan-separatistc failure !!!

[mickybcn]

CLARALEMLICHRULES, The Generalitat of Catalonia stems from the medieval institution which ruled, in the name of the King of the Crown of Aragon, some aspects of the administration of the Principality of Catalonia. The first Catalan constitution is that of the Corts of Barcelona from 1283. The last was promulgated by the Corts of 1702.

[ClaraLemlichRules]

There was a war, yes (la guerra de los segadores). But, once again, Cataluña has NEVER being an independent state, therefore there never was a Spanish invasion (it was a revolt that lead to a deal between France and Cataluña to achieve independence, it never worked). Spain was formed by the union of the kingdoms of Castilla and Aragon (which Cataluña used to belong to) in 1469 with the marriage of the Catholic king and queen. Never independent before, but who knows? maybe now hehe

[odiossea]

It was totally legal, though not binding.

[dailion]

En 10 años todos negros, y un unico califa

[curial12]

Bye bye Spain!! Freedom for the catalan nation!!

[ClaraLemlichRules]

Para mi es mas ciao Cataluña! Libertad para España!! jejeje diferentes puntos de vista I guess lol

[odiossea]

For hugging, it must to be two :) Looking forward freedom for Catalonia and for Spain also. I'm sure will give each other the points in Eurovision Contest ))) Best wishes for Spain from Catalonia

[ClaraLemlichRules]

That is done ;D

[TierradeMaria]

You can keep your silly debate, assuming that only YOU have to vote to decide about what belongs to all spanish people. That´s not very democratic.

Catalonia, inspired by the rest of Spain, certainly now admits a lot of people from abroad and integrates them. Catalonia is a fantastic place. The problem is nationalism.

In all Spain, years ago, they used to talk with admiration about Catalonia. That doesn´t happen any more. It ´s like a circus.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@TierradeMaria no country that has made a referendum has let the country to which they belonged to vote about that, do you imagine letting the whole Soviet Union in 1991 about the independence of Latvia? o.O

but, it seems that catalans, galicians, and basques we are shit and can't debate or vote because " estamos en España"

[odiossea]

We just want respect to the choice Catalan People will take in a binding referendum. A choice expressed democraticly and free, without any violence, just ballot boxes. Many media from around the world could come and testify theirselves our independentism is not ethnicist.

Example: J.L. Carod Rovira, Vice President of Catalan Government is son of spanish. A. López Tena, one of the responsibles of referendum is son of spanish. You are the ethnicist, we just welcome everybody to join our project

[odiossea]

It's noticed you really don't know reality of Catalonia. It has been always a land which has received a lot of foreign population, and showed a extraordinary capability to integrate new come people. That is based in the fact we don't demand any national test to feel catalan and participate of our project.

A good prove is that all people who live and work here are allowed to vote in referendum, no matter where they came from or what's their nationality.

Btw, ETA?? Isn't it in Basque Country??

[ClaraLemlichRules]

Yes it is. I would understand a referendum of this type in the Basque country as they have try to kept their identity (very diverse from Spanish) before Roman's times, but Cataluña? ehem not a good example for that has it has NEVER been an independent state. Their language (a weird mixture of French, Italian and Spanish) is totally Latin based. But hey! They want independence, I encourage this. I am spanish from Madrid but living in England and

[ClaraLemlichRules]

I never had an issue about catalans before I came here, but my experiences here had been, well not really positive. I would rather they would get their "independence" and leave the rest of Spain alone. Anyway, after the catalan's statutes aproved by the spanish government some years ago Cataluña don't share ANY of their profits with the rest of Spain (when the rest of Spain does share with them) So please, free Spain from Cataluña, now! Very happy about the referendum :D

[TierradeMaria]

"It's not connected with ethnicity or even national feeling"

____

The reality is not what you say, but what it is. Independentism is intimately united with hate for the rest, which you call "charnegos".

All independentists are nationalists. And their behaviour is know to us: constant harrasment, fascist treatment, violence in universities against the peaceful catalonians that are not nationalists, close support to the supporters of assasins of ETA, etc.

[TierradeMaria]

Odiossea,

1. All polls are clear: catalonians in a vast majority feel spanish and do NOT want independence. Election over election, independentist parties are declining, and are a minority.

2. This referendum has shown the disaster: less than 28% people voted (according to the independentists). Everybody is laughing in Catalonia and the rest of Spain about it.

Very funny the guy above: "help us!"...¿?. ¿Not man enough to resolve your problems?

[odiossea]

1. Don't cheat, please: one thing is the party one citizen trust tand other is to answer the question: "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state inside EU?". There is independentists in almost every party, it's a transversal subject. Main party of Catalonia, CIU, have indep. and non-indep. people.

You should support a binding referendum, if you're so sure they are a minority, you could demonstrate it to world forever more )

[odiossea]

2. 95% of people who voted said "YES" to independence.

In other binding votes, participation rate use to be about 40%

[freecatalonia46]

That's not true. See CiU, they are increasing their results in every election.

PD: Laughing? You're not Catalunya, guy. 200.000 people is a significative reason to be worried by spanish people.

Results in Vic: 41%, 48% of real votes. This is very serious.

Thank you very much Odiossea, for this video.

[freecatalonia46]

Ok. I think is a success, because in this place, Vic (Barcelona), the participation have been about 48% of real votes, more than other elections.

This is an important part of the population. Please, Europe, help us. We need you. //*//

[Fabbech]

Catalonia has to be free to chose. Spanish society cannot hide that there are and there will be many catalans, most young people, who don't want to be spanish. And this consultancy shows that. I hope this consultancy is organized from local citizenship and not by any political party.

FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION!

[TierradeMaria]

I am Spanish, and my ancestors, have given me a motherland, a complete one. No one has the right to take away from me what is also rightly mine. Nevermind votes, that is no reason to robe others what is also theirs , inherited from centuries.

Any "independence" obviously shall be a violent act. And according to history, its consequence is war.

Some people like playing with danger, unworried about the fact that it produces tombs, blood an widows for our children. May God damn them all.

[odiossea]

Recall one thing is nationality and other is citizenship. We're talking here about social rights and chances people WHO LIVE IN CATALONIA, however they feel, spanish, catalan, argentinian, moroccan.., are losing. Anyway we'll be all in EU. Let's be civilized and not scary about democratic choices. Let's get choices closer to people, let's be democratics.

[odiossea]

I really can't imagine a war as you draw. I think nobody who is serious can. Can anybody imagine it in Scotland or Flanders?? We will decide with democracy, and Spain will respect, I'm sure they will be eventually a modern and democratic nation.

[odiossea]

Please, let's talk in English for everybody to understand.

Por favor, hablemos en inglés, así nos entendemos todos.

[TierradeMaria]

Nationalism is fascism, is demonic. "Fly away from any kind of racism, nationalism and xenophobia!" John Paul II

[odiossea]

Yeah, let's shelter from the Spanish nationalism which doesn't leave catalan people to develop and contribute to build a modern Europe.

No to nationalism, yes to democracy: BINDING REFERENDUM ABOUT INDEPENDENCE!

[TierradeMaria]

Well, you have the results already. People didn´t even bother to vote. Anyone honest knows perfectly well that the majority of catalans feel spanish. In fact, even the so proclaimed "own language" is a publicly imposed lie. Over 50% of catalans are native spanish speakers. In Barcelona, that figure is well over 60%.

Dios detesta a los sembradores de cizaña, y tenemos muchos entre los políticos. Ojalá no nos lleven a otra ruina, otra vez.

[odiossea]

It's not connected with ethnicity or even national feeling. An independent Catalonia would administrate and manage better and completely our own resources. More hospitals, roads, international flights, schools, grants for every catalan citizen: those who feel spanish, catalan, moroccan or citizen of the world.

[Denis14P]

Catalonia always will be Spain.

From Catalonia in SPAIN

[ddksasknar]

CATALONIA IS NOT SPAIN!!

[ClaraLemlichRules]

lol who are you?

[Perijol]

@ddksasknar YES, CATALONIA IS SPAIN ! NOW it´s PROVED....no doubt !

[kudy023]

If you aren't catalan, you mustn't speak about that

Don't be silly... omg..

[odiossea]

95% said YES to independence and you say it's proved Catalonia want to keep under structures of Spain? ))))

This referendum has been organized in two months, without any public suport, with all instruments of Spanish state againts it, financed only with voluntary contributions of people, no polling spaces on radios or TV, no debates, only the work of 20000 volunteers. Besides it was not binding. Despite everything, one out of every three electors went to vote, and voted YES to independence.

[Perijol]

@odiossea pfffffff, nothing to mean, only separatist people participate, including, childs, imigrants and probably any dogs and cats too....otherwise they wouldn´t reach no 15 % of participation.....total failure for the hate campaign against Spain....the catalan people have spoken, CATALONIA IS SPAIN...deal with it !

[odiossea]

Rather on the contrary: if you see the data, you'll realise participation rate is quite upper if you only count people over 18 and with spanish passport. Look carefully the results, I'm sure you'll like it.

What do you think? Should immigrants vote in a binding referendum?

There is no hate in Catalonia. We'll be your best neighbours, you'll see ;)

[EstrellaPolux]

Well, Catalonia is Spain, i think it´s very clear to anybody after 13 D 2009. Greatings from Tighternighterwoods Chilingdale Crossham !

[TheSpaniard87]

Sorry that is false, 1/4 went to vote. I think 27% of participation is nearer to 25% (1/4) than to 33% (1/3).

Just dont manipulate coz it was a failure.

25% of independentisme in the most pro-independence towns is an absolute disaster.

Lets see what will happen in the urban area of Barcelona ;)

[odiossea]

Don't worry, in a binding referendum Spain will mobilize spanish nationalist vote. Spain have too much to lose if they try to boycott a binding referendum ))

Besides, in a binding referendum cense will include (according UN and EU standards) only elders than 18 with spanish passport (if we take only this cense, participation was sensitively upper.

Of course, let's see urban area of Barna, let's see Girona, let's see the Ebre lands... let's see the whole country. Democracy must not scare anybody.

[TheSpaniard87]

XDXD

Are you camparing the urban are of barcelona (represents more than 50% of catalan population) to girona or the ebre lands? XD

There will never be a binding referendum XD

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@TheSpaniard87 tell me why.

[breizhcatalonia1993]

@TheSpaniard87 because it was not a binding referendum ^^ ;)

[odiossea]

Imagine what will happen when the final binding referendum will eventually be done. Independentist are very confident they will win it. I'm not so sure about unionist. Shall we do the binding referendum, organised by Catalan government? Shall we ask catalan population, and respect their decition? ;)

[monkeyapplenerd]

freedom for Catalonia!

[ClaraLemlichRules]

and Spain from them! XD